The Problem of Evil

[CHB]

I have to agree with Paul and Lefein on this one thing, God is not evil, he is not a liar, murderer, rapist, or any of the bad things. Everything that God does is good, perfect, loving, honest, and for the good of all mankind. I believe we should think of God in these terms, knowing that everything will work out for the good and perfect benefit for all mankind.

Now, does God use all these things to bring about the conclusion, the final outcome the good of mankind, I believe he does. I don't understand all of it now because we see through a glass darkly but someday we will know as we are known.

To say that God has his limitations I think is saying he is not supreme, or highest in rank, that there are other forces that are stronger than he is. I don't think that anyone would disagree with the fact that God existed before anything else did and that none of the things that exist would exist without God bringing them into being. If something existed before God and things just happened without God being the instigator then I would be worried that whatever this thing is would disrupt God's plan. How could we trust God if there is some force that exist without God having control of it? I would have to say "well sure but what about this other thing that is in force, that God cannot do anything about".   

All of this reasoning boggles the mind. One thing I feel confident of is , I know my God lives and he is in control of all the things that effect me and the rest of the world. I know that he has my best interest at heart and will not let me down. I know that no matter what anyone else says that God is for me and he is supreme above all powers and principalities. God deals directly and indirectly with us all. He is head of this corporation of which I am a part. He has a lot of powers and humans working for him but they do not work independently of him.

Just had to get that off of my chest.

CHB

But since Jesus said he and the Father are ONE, and we are one through Christ; and greater works we will do; and WE have the mind of Christ; then what's to stop you from killing abortion doctors, killing rapists, smashing babies heads against the rocks, having people eat each other, skinned alive, burned at the stake;  after all....It is Christ working in you to do his GOOD pleasure; which for some this good includes all these things. 

LOVE is the answer. 


LOVE revealed is not imo through a "dark glass".   It is known.  when we lay down our life for our brother; not murder, rape kill them. 

just my one cent.

By the grace of God go I, as Paul said.  If not for the grace of God and him directing my steps, I could have been Hitler, Charles Manson, or any of the other killers out there. If any one of us had been put in the same circumstances that the one's I mentioned was, we would have done the same things. God chose for me to be the way I am.

CHB

[Lefein]

A thought just came to me a few minutes ago that I wanted to share.

How much faith?

How much faith does it take to still believe that God is in control, even when all circumstances seem to be full of evil?  How much more faith does it take to still believe that God is in control even knowing that the evil of your circumstances was not his invention?  That he is in control, even despite a weirdness that is not one of his created devices?

I'd say a great deal of faith.  But compared to the other;

How much faith does it take to still believe that God is somehow good, and righteous, and perfect if his heart according to his own word is full of evil, and evil imaginations, and evil methods, and evil ideas?  How much faith does it take to still believe that God is somehow Holy, if out of the abundance of his heart he spoke into being all the wrongs that you have suffered?

It takes little faith, because it is a supposition made in denial that there is perfection in the imperfect heart of God.  Perfection and Imperfection are (when it comes to God most certainly of all) mutually exclusive.

It is a beautiful thing in the heart of God to have children who still believe their father is in control, even when something he has not made, a weird nothingness that is sin, and evil, is in the midst of their circumstances causing havoc.

Is it beautiful to the heart of God who is full of darkness to even have children at all?  Out of the abundance of what...Did God speak into being, Creation?

God spoke Light into being, and so his heart is full of the beautiful wonder that Light is.  God is Light, and so his heart is Light, and so his heart is abundantly Light - and so he spoke Light, and Light was. 

God's heart is infinite, and so out of the infinite fullness of Light in him, he spoke the expression of light that we have in our world.

God's heart is infinite, and so...if God spoke evil into being, his heart his infinitely full of evil...God is not so grand that he is above his own truths.

So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.  It takes little faith to just throw one's arms up and say "God did it!" when no other sufficient answer comes across our minds.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I have to agree with Paul and Lefein on this one thing, God is not evil, he is not a liar, murderer, rapist, or any of the bad things. Everything that God does is good, perfect, loving, honest, and for the good of all mankind. I believe we should think of God in these terms, knowing that everything will work out for the good and perfect benefit for all mankind.

Now, does God use all these things to bring about the conclusion, the final outcome the good of mankind, I believe he does. I don't understand all of it now because we see through a glass darkly but someday we will know as we are known.

To say that God has his limitations I think is saying he is not supreme, or highest in rank, that there are other forces that are stronger than he is. I don't think that anyone would disagree with the fact that God existed before anything else did and that none of the things that exist would exist without God bringing them into being. If something existed before God and things just happened without God being the instigator then I would be worried that whatever this thing is would disrupt God's plan. How could we trust God if there is some force that exist without God having control of it? I would have to say "well sure but what about this other thing that is in force, that God cannot do anything about".   

All of this reasoning boggles the mind. One thing I feel confident of is , I know my God lives and he is in control of all the things that effect me and the rest of the world. I know that he has my best interest at heart and will not let me down. I know that no matter what anyone else says that God is for me and he is supreme above all powers and principalities. God deals directly and indirectly with us all. He is head of this corporation of which I am a part. He has a lot of powers and humans working for him but they do not work independently of him.

Just had to get that off of my chest.

CHB

But since Jesus said he and the Father are ONE, and we are one through Christ; and greater works we will do; and WE have the mind of Christ; then what's to stop you from killing abortion doctors, killing rapists, smashing babies heads against the rocks, having people eat each other, skinned alive, burned at the stake;  after all....It is Christ working in you to do his GOOD pleasure; which for some this good includes all these things. 

LOVE is the answer. 


LOVE revealed is not imo through a "dark glass".   It is known.  when we lay down our life for our brother; not murder, rape kill them. 

just my one cent.

By the grace of God go I, as Paul said.  If not for the grace of God and him directing my steps, I could have been Hitler, Charles Manson, or any of the other killers out there. If any one of us had been put in the same circumstances that the one's I mentioned was, we would have done the same things. God chose for me to be the way I am.

CHB

Is it possible, that you have no assurance now that God will not cause you to go strangle someones kids?

[Molly]

good grief.   C'mon, Paul...

Why would you say a thing like that?

That's a rhetorical question.  No answer required.

[Paul Hazelwood]

good grief.   C'mon, Paul...

Why would you say a thing like that?

That's a rhetorical question.  No answer required.

I asked a question about what someone thinks is possible.  Why is that a problem?  I am not implying that he thinks that,  I am asking if what he believes entertains that possibility so that I do not imply any assumptions on my part.

No one is required to answer anything and I never said anyone was.

[CHB]

So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.

You have got to be kidding, right?

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.

Yes,  Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something.   But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.

[lomarah]

I just wanted to point out that in regards to God's thoughts not being our thoughts, the verse in Isaiah is speaking of His HIGHER MERCY!!!

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD

[CHB]

Is it possible, that you have no assurance now that God will not cause you to go strangle someones kids?

Paul, are you doing what you accused me of doing?

Since it is not in man to direct his steps and since it is God working in me to will and to do of his pleasure. I have faith that whatever I do God is behind it. I have no desire to do what you said so, I believe that is proof that God hasn't chosen me to be a vessel of dishonor. 

[Lefein]

You have got to be kidding, right?

Not by a single wit am I joking.  I am thoroughly serious.

Since it is not in man to direct his steps and since it is God working in me to will and to do of his pleasure. I have faith that whatever I do God is behind it. I have no desire to do what you said so, I believe that is proof that God hasn't chosen me to be a vessel of dishonor. 

Hypothetically, what if he did choose you to be that vessel of dishonour?

[Molly]

I just wanted to point out that in regards to God's thoughts not being our thoughts, the verse in Isaiah is speaking of His HIGHER MERCY!!!

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD

:thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Is it possible, that you have no assurance now that God will not cause you to go strangle someones kids?

Paul, are you doing what you accused me of doing?

Since it is not in man to direct his steps and since it is God working in me to will and to do of his pleasure. I have faith that whatever I do God is behind it. I have no desire to do what you said so, I believe that is proof that God hasn't chosen me to be a vessel of dishonor.

I made it clear in my reply to Molly that I asked the question without that intent, sorry if I did not qualify that in my reply to you..  Note I asked if you believe it is possible  I did not say  "so are you saying" as if I already made up my mind about what you wrote.

You may not have that desire now, but based on what you believe. do you see it as a possibility that God can give you that desire in the future if he so desires?

[Lefein]

I think what we have here is a battle over what I'd call "Applied-Calvinism".

According to which; God doesn't send people to Hell, he just makes people act like it...At the end of the day we still get the evil god of Calvinism, the only thing that is different is that Hell has been relocated, and redefined; instead of a place of torture, it has become a mindset of divinely sponsored evildoing.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Livingwater...  :winkgrin:

CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

:dontknow:


Paul

God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge.  God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.

God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.

Then what do you do with these verses? (Luke 137) For with God NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.
(Matt. 19:26) with God ALL things are possible.

CHB

Easy,  ALL has a context of what is righteousness.   Causing a rape is not righteousness so righteous rape is not possible.

Are you saying that there are things that are impossible with God?

CHB

can God tell a lie?

Tit 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Though you are welcome to refuse to accept this...

"Rape"... it is a PART of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL... without "rape" occuring in this scenario... then an element of EVIL would remain UNREVEALED and the "knowledge" would be INCOMPLETE...

That this awful event takes place in YHVH's creation... and that He does not intervene to disallow its occurance, means that it is HIS INTENTION that it be REVEALED as a portion of EVIL which is (in His ETERNAL essence), KNOWN to Him...  For all events of humanity were KNOWN and DECLARED -- BY HIM -- before they took place in time -- Isaiah 46:10

Sorry, ...but this "proposal of LYING" as an IMPOSSIBILITY for YHVH God --- is nothing but another of the same variety of ATHIESTIC questioning that asks... CAN God make a ROCK "to Heavy for Him to lift"  :rolleye:

GOD is ABLE to do anything... but chooses to remain in HOLINESS in ALL His choosings.... GOD cannot LIE because He would negate Himself by doing so, for He is TRUTH...

The Scripture notes in several places that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God... in order for those Scriptures to be TRUTH, ...then there is NOTHING IMPOSSIBLE for God to "do"...

You are a human being which CAN (are able) murder another... that you DO NOT MURDER does not mean that YOU CANNOT (are unable to) MURDER...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[jabcat]

Molly, is it possible God uses evil tools to accomplish His good and better purposes?  For example, did He send a lying spirit as He said He did?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it?   No, and so what?  lol.

[Lefein]

That this awful event takes place in YHVH's creation... and that He does not intervene to disallow its occurance, means that it is HIS INTENTION that it be REVEALED as a portion of EVIL which is (in His ETERNAL essence), KNOWN to Him...  For all events of humanity were KNOWN and DECLARED -- BY HIM -- before they took place in time -- Isaiah 46:10

Applied Calvinism.  And what of God not commanding his children to sacrifice their own babies?

AV Lv 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through [the fire] to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I [am] the LORD.

AV Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

"Rape"... it is a PART of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL... without "rape" occuring in this scenario... then an element of EVIL would remain UNREVEALED and the "knowledge" would be INCOMPLETE...

Knowledge of evil and good is not what brings salvation - that is an Eastern Religious idea; one that is expressed by saying that one must be reincarnated over, and over again until he has experienced it all, and has obtained enlightenment.

Knowledge of God alone is required for salvation, and completeness.  It is God who completes, not knowledge.  People may perish for a lack of knowledge, but they only need enough knowledge that is sufficient for pointing their direction upwards - they don't need to know left, right, down, diagonal, and every direction possible - all they need is the direction of 'up'.  That is the purpose of knowledge, that alone is its purpose.  It is not for completeness.

Let us not worship knowledge over God.

I'd rather have incomplete knowledge and know God, than have all the knowledge in the world and not know him.

Sorry, ...but this "proposal of LYING" as an IMPOSSIBILITY for YHVH God --- is nothing but another of the same variety of ATHIESTIC questioning that asks... CAN God make a ROCK "to Heavy for Him to lift"

Better to be an "atheist" who knows the true God, than a "theist" who pretends to know him by attributing all manner of silliness to him.  God is not a clown who does tricks at a divine circus by proving that he can make stones into bread.  He simply will not use his power to prove such a point.

And if I may dare say, by your own theology of God's declarations being Absolute; God himself said that he cannot lie, and therefore it is not that he "can" lie, because straight out of the very mouth of God he has spoken as an unchanging, absolute truth;
"I - God - Can'Not - Lie"

That means, it is thoroughly, absolutely, infinitely, and always shall be - impossible. Most especially, according to the theology you seem to hold to.

GOD is ABLE to do anything... but chooses to remain in HOLINESS in ALL His choosings.... GOD cannot LIE because He would negate Himself by doing so, for He is TRUTH...

So for all practical purposes; it is impossible, because the unchanging God cannot change so drastically as to negate his entire omnipresent, omniscient, all-time-dwelling, all-place-dwelling self by lying at any single moment in the entirety of his infinite existence.

The Scripture notes in several places that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God... in order for those Scriptures to be TRUTH, ...then there is NOTHING IMPOSSIBLE for God to "do"...

Applied Calvinism.

You are a human being which CAN (are able) murder another... that you DO NOT MURDER does not mean that YOU CANNOT (are unable to) MURDER...

We however, unlike God - are full of sin, which God simply cannot do.

It is impossible for God to sin, it is impossible for God to lie.

I don't quite care if a single interpretation of a verse in a book says that God can do the impossible (ludicrous more like, ludicrous and rootedly divided-unstable in his heart if he did so) - his omnipotence is not a license for ludicrous use of his power.

It is not possible for God to lie, but God can do what is impossible for men to do.  And if I recall...it is impossible for men not to lie.  What man can't do, God can; He is powerful enough that he cannot lie.

[thinktank]

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.  John 1:3

Lefein and Paul specifically (or anyone else), don't you answer this by saying that evil (or more specifically, sin) was not created or made?  That it's a result of or absence of something else, not created?  Is that correct?  And if so, I'm really mulling if that's actually possible, in the overall scheme of things - that anything could exist, that taken to its ultimate conclusion, could exist without an act of forethought and/or creation.

How could the devil create sin? I don't think he created, simply distorted the balance of Gods attributes. By taking the attibute of love and focusing it on himself, that gave the elements of power, which God gave him to be no longer focused on helping others but focused on helping himself. So that Gods power that he gave him, powers is now used for helping himself. With this unbalance, this could be the birthing of evil and lies, which might take a large philosophical approach as to why selfishness breeds something called a lie. Or was it that the lie first bred selfishness. The lie that one can become as God and sit upon his throne. Why did God allow this "unbalancing" of power within the angel or cherubim? Because God gives his creatures freedom and some angels it seemed followed the devil in this revolt and believed his lies.

It seems that the creation of freedom was a bold experiment of God, but he wanted to give his creatures the best possible existence and that can only be so by giving them freedom. As to the scope of that freedom that angels enjoyed it is probably far more freedom than humanity currently has access to. The freedom to create beautyfull creations, music and artisitic beauty, but without love these powers are no longer shared but kept to themselves for selfish pursuit. Most of the angels choose love and therefore choose God, but some it seemed were intrigued by living life on their own terms. I think that humanity are a people that were intrigued by the idea of living life on their own terms, rather than Gods terms and in his mercy God decided to rescue us by sending his son to die for us. Even though we may or may not have preexisted and made this choice to come here ( that's another story) but even today at least in spirit we choose between doing good and evil, and even if we dont actually commit evil, most of us in our spirits in our inner hearts have desired to to that which is evil or doing that which is selfish, perhaps imagining being a German soldier in ww2 driving a tiger and fighting the allies. Even some of our childish imaginations are based on the creativity of our spirit. Although many today are so spiritually dead that they no longer have any imagination and operate primarily on a outward brain based conciousness, which is very limited and boring way of living life, a lot of our academia is based on this type of thinking, not evil as such, but it is evil and cold because it denies the inner spirit of man.

[willieH]

So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.

Yes,  Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something.   But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.

Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...

John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"

Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"

Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"

ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...

Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10

To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or  :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS...  :dontknow:  ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.

...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

[Paul Hazelwood]

So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.

Yes,  Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something.   But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.

Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...

John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"

Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"

Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"

ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...

Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10

To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or  :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS...  :dontknow:  ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.

...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

I appreciate the note and will consider what you have written, these kinds of things prompt me to ask about possibilites. 

Is it possible that in the future God could cause you to drown your grandchildren if he so desired it?   If you do not have grandchildren, the neighborhood kids will suffice in the example.

[Lefein]

Pictures speak a thousand words, and so I must wonder...

Did God invent this?

Graphic, Do-Not-Look if you are sensitive.  I MEAN it.  I cannot stress it enough.

http://www.asianoffbeat.com/photos/child-abuse-cases-enrage-chinese-public_4793.jpg
http://thetruthwins.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Abortion-Roe-v-Wade.jpg

Would it be better for God to tie a millstone around his neck, and be cast into the sea?  Than to have offended the little ones he himself knit together in their mother's womb?

[jabcat]

TT, I'll look at your post more closely later.  But you've been here long enough to have caught on to the guidelines regarding the use of so-called "freewill".   Thanks, James.

Notice to others.  I've seen that term used multiple times in the past couple of days.  If it continues to be posted against repeated requests, it will be deleted from future posts.  Outright refusal to comply with the clearly stated guideline, is subject to a temporary ban.

[Lefein]

If I may ask also Jabcat in all fairness; since the use of this forbidden word and topic is now being moderated, I'd like the other side of the aisle to be forbidden from mentioning their theology as well.  Terms such as "Ordained all things", "Predestined/Predestination" and similar phrases.

It would not be fair if say, Arminianism was a bannable subject, while Calvinism was left to run wild and free without a similar check, if that makes sense.  The same should go with "forbidden subject" and the antithesis to it.

[jabcat]

It being "now moderated" is not entirely accurate.  It's been moderated as recently as the past couple of weeks.

The specific guidelines, available for all to read and pointed out numerous times, states FREE WILL and SOVEREIGNTY terms are mainly at issue.  Encouraged is the use of more "creative", and/or sticking to the scriptures during discussion.

I'll look at other aspects of your request, but do the scriptures NOT say that God has ordained all things?  Or perhaps that is "over a line".  However, again, the specific terms are noted above and elsewhere.  I'll look at it further.

[Lefein]

I only think that if one side of a debate aisle, and their interpretation of scripture is silenced, the other should not be allowed to continue voicing their opinion and interpretation without the same limits that are put on the silenced.