The Problem of Evil

[Paul Hazelwood]

Does God Ever Lie?

Would God ever cause people to believe a falsehood – a lie?
 
While we are told explicitly that there are two things in which it is impossible for God to lie (that is in regard to his promises and oaths to mankind and to angels – Hebrews 6:18), God has caused people to believe falsehoods in the past. "The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets" (I Kings 22:23). If people continue in wickedness and deceivableness, God will retort in kind (II Thessalonians 2:10) for we are told that God will also cause delusion in the future to the wicked. "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (II Thessalonians 2:11). Ernest L Martin

(Titus !:2) This verse has been shown to prove that God cannot lie, but take a look at what the verse is talking about. is that what it is really saying? No!! It is saying that God promised eternal life, or age lasting life before the world began and he will not change this. We have the hope that God did not and will not lie about this. Look at (Hebrews 6:18) That by TWO IMMUTABLE THINGS in which it was impossible for God to lie. God also created us who are the biggest liars of all.

CHB

We lie, God doesn't that's just a fact.   He cannot lie because, he can't.  That inability is a supreme strength.   

We reap what we sow, liars can actually start truly believing their lies and other lies because that is what they reap.   It is how the law works.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I agree lomarah, some are just flat-out saying God DOES NOT do it.

Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?

Amos 3:6
Webster Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?

Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?

God set up the system of law that we reap what we sow.

So, you are saying that God does do these things after all?

CHB

Nope,  you are trying to put words in my mouth rather than have a conversation.

[Molly]

Does God Ever Lie?

Would God ever cause people to believe a falsehood – a lie?
 
While we are told explicitly that there are two things in which it is impossible for God to lie (that is in regard to his promises and oaths to mankind and to angels – Hebrews 6:18), God has caused people to believe falsehoods in the past. "The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets" (I Kings 22:23). If people continue in wickedness and deceivableness, God will retort in kind (II Thessalonians 2:10) for we are told that God will also cause delusion in the future to the wicked. "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (II Thessalonians 2:11). Ernest L Martin

(Titus !:2) This verse has been shown to prove that God cannot lie, but take a look at what the verse is talking about. is that what it is really saying? No!! It is saying that God promised eternal life, or age lasting life before the world began and he will not change this. We have the hope that God did not and will not lie about this. Look at (Hebrews 6:18) That by TWO IMMUTABLE THINGS in which it was impossible for God to lie. God also created us who are the biggest liars of all.

CHB

We lie, God doesn't that's just a fact.   He cannot lie because, he can't.  That inability is a supreme strength.   

We reap what we sow, liars can actually start truly believing their lies and other lies because that is what they reap.   It is how the law works.

Yeah.  A pathological liar will start believing their own lies.  I've watched it happen.  It's just amazing to me. :mshock:

[WhiteWings]

Does God Ever Lie?

Would God ever cause people to believe a falsehood – a lie?

Yes. We are lowered, veiled and blinded. Teachings in teh Bible took 1000's of years to write down. I would saw the path to falsehood is paved very well that way....

[CHB]

Lefein, you said yes, you do see it that way, and that "the fruit did not rot on the edict of God's creative power, it was just the inevitable consequence of being separated from the life giving branches.  If you are separated from life-giving life, dying you will die, that is a fact in and of itself, a truth, even without looking at God's creative nature, or even his nature at all."

And as Paul said earlier, things are consequences of law that God put in place.

So my thought is, where did those consequences initially originate?  Where was it set in place that the fruit would rot apart from the branch, and who made it that way?  Accident?  A simple act or quirk of evolution?  Or if not, didn't someone have to at least set that in motion with either a plan, or at least foreknowledge?  And if so, who takes responsibility for it?

Amen!!! jabcat, that is so right.  :bgdance:

CHB

[CHB]

We reap what we sow, liars can actually start truly believing their lies and other lies because that is what they reap.   It is how the law works.

You said, "it is how the law works".  Whose law are you talking about? It is God's laws, right? It always comes back to God no matter what it is.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

We reap what we sow, liars can actually start truly believing their lies and other lies because that is what they reap.   It is how the law works.

You said, "it is how the law works".  Whose law are you talking about? It is God's laws, right? It always comes back to God no matter what it is.

CHB

What I am saying is that there is a certain nature behind it all and it is what I have explained.   You are not required to agree with me, but I'm not going to play silly games with you concerning what you want to imply what I say means.

I have given direct answers in my other posts, read them or don't, it is up to you.

[CHB]

I agree lomarah, some are just flat-out saying God DOES NOT do it.

Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?

Amos 3:6
Webster Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?

Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?

God set up the system of law that we reap what we sow.

So, you are saying that God does do these things after all?

CHB

Nope,  you are trying to put words in my mouth rather than have a conversation.

Nope, wasn't trying to do that Paul. First you said that God didn't have anything to do with the evil we experience, then you said above that God set up a system that we reap what we sow. If God set up this system of laws that causes us to reap what we sow then how do you reason around that? Everything that happens in this life is a reap and sow situation.

CHB

[CHB]

We reap what we sow, liars can actually start truly believing their lies and other lies because that is what they reap.   It is how the law works.

You said, "it is how the law works".  Whose law are you talking about? It is God's laws, right? It always comes back to God no matter what it is.

CHB

What I am saying is that there is a certain nature behind it all and it is what I have explained.   You are not required to agree with me, but I'm not going to play silly games with you concerning what you want to imply what I say means.

I have given direct answers in my other posts, read them or don't, it is up to you.

I am not playing silly games Paul, just trying to figure out how you come to the conclusions you come to. I have read all of your post and that is why I ask these questions. Would you prefer I didn't ask you any more questions?

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

I agree lomarah, some are just flat-out saying God DOES NOT do it.

Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?

Amos 3:6
Webster Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?

Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?

God set up the system of law that we reap what we sow.

So, you are saying that God does do these things after all?

CHB

Nope,  you are trying to put words in my mouth rather than have a conversation.

Nope, wasn't trying to do that Paul. First you said that God didn't have anything to do with the evil we experience, then you said above that God set up a system that we reap what we sow. If God set up this system of laws that causes us to reap what we sow then how do you reason around that? Everything that happens in this life is a reap and sow situation.

CHB

The context of my comments was concerning the moral nature of Gods involVement.  There is nothing to reason around.

[Paul Hazelwood]

We reap what we sow, liars can actually start truly believing their lies and other lies because that is what they reap.   It is how the law works.

You said, "it is how the law works".  Whose law are you talking about? It is God's laws, right? It always comes back to God no matter what it is.

CHB

What I am saying is that there is a certain nature behind it all and it is what I have explained.   You are not required to agree with me, but I'm not going to play silly games with you concerning what you want to imply what I say means.

I have given direct answers in my other posts, read them or don't, it is up to you.

I am not playing silly games Paul, just trying to figure out how you come to the conclusions you come to. I have read all of your post and that is why I ask these questions. Would you prefer I didn't ask you any more questions?

CHB

If every question you ask is an implication rather than the appearance of a sincere interest then sure, don't ask me anything more I am not interested.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I agree with you CHB; it's impossible to remove God from the equation. As I said before, Jesus, who only spoke what He heard His Father speak, PROPHESIED the DESTRUCTION of the temple.

Prophecy is not fortune-telling, it's the same Spirit that SPOKE the creation into existance, more closely aligned to a King's decree, than a "prediction". The principle behind it, is calling those things that are not, as though they were, ie. DECLARING the end from the beginning. As carnal man, we tend to just focus on the words spoken, and not the CONTENT, which is the Spirit behind the words. They are literally vessels for His Spirit.

God spoke judgment over many situations throughout time as we know it, the potter's right to break the vessels He created, who is more concerned with their eternal state and the eternal state of those around them, than their transitory state. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Paul Hazelwood]

:cloud9: I agree with you CHB; it's impossible to remove God from the equation. As I said before, Jesus, who only spoke what He heard His Father speak, PROPHESIED the DESTRUCTION of the temple.

Prophecy is not fortune-telling, it's the same Spirit that SPOKE the creation into existance, more closely aligned to a King's decree, than a "prediction". The principle behind it, is calling those things that are not, as though they were, ie. DECLARING the end from the beginning. As carnal man, we tend to just focus on the words spoken, and not the CONTENT, which is the Spirit behind the words. They are literally vessels for His Spirit.

God spoke judgment over many situations throughout time as we know it, the potter's right to break the vessels He created, who is more concerned with their eternal state and the eternal state of those around them, than their transitory state. My  :2c: Blessings....

For the record removing God from the equation and learning what the nature of God is in the equation is two different things.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Point taken....

[CHB]

I have to agree with Paul and Lefein on this one thing, God is not evil, he is not a liar, murderer, rapist, or any of the bad things. Everything that God does is good, perfect, loving, honest, and for the good of all mankind. I believe we should think of God in these terms, knowing that everything will work out for the good and perfect benefit for all mankind.

Now, does God use all these things to bring about the conclusion, the final outcome the good of mankind, I believe he does. I don't understand all of it now because we see through a glass darkly but someday we will know as we are known.

To say that God has his limitations I think is saying he is not supreme, or highest in rank, that there are other forces that are stronger than he is. I don't think that anyone would disagree with the fact that God existed before anything else did and that none of the things that exist would exist without God bringing them into being. If something existed before God and things just happened without God being the instigator then I would be worried that whatever this thing is would disrupt God's plan. How could we trust God if there is some force that exist without God having control of it? I would have to say "well sure but what about this other thing that is in force, that God cannot do anything about".   

All of this reasoning boggles the mind. One thing I feel confident of is , I know my God lives and he is in control of all the things that effect me and the rest of the world. I know that he has my best interest at heart and will not let me down. I know that no matter what anyone else says that God is for me and he is supreme above all powers and principalities. God deals directly and indirectly with us all. He is head of this corporation of which I am a part. He has a lot of powers and humans working for him but they do not work independently of him.

Just had to get that off of my chest.

CHB

[Cardinal]

  One thing I feel confident of is, I know my God lives and he is in control of all the things that effect me and the rest of the world. I know that he has my best interest at heart and will not let me down. I know that no matter what anyone else says that God is for me and he is supreme above all powers and principalities. God deals directly and indirectly with us all. He is head of this corporation of which I am a part. He has a lot of powers and humans working for him but they do not work independently of him.

:cloud9: Amen....

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: I agree with you CHB; it's impossible to remove God from the equation. As I said before, Jesus, who only spoke what He heard His Father speak, PROPHESIED the DESTRUCTION of the temple.

Prophecy is not fortune-telling, it's the same Spirit that SPOKE the creation into existance, more closely aligned to a King's decree, than a "prediction". The principle behind it, is calling those things that are not, as though they were, ie. DECLARING the end from the beginning. As carnal man, we tend to just focus on the words spoken, and not the CONTENT, which is the Spirit behind the words. They are literally vessels for His Spirit.

God spoke judgment over many situations throughout time as we know it, the potter's right to break the vessels He created, who is more concerned with their eternal state and the eternal state of those around them, than their transitory state. My  :2c: Blessings....

For the record removing God from the equation and learning what the nature of God is in the equation is two different things.

God is  a variable in the equasion. So removing Him from the equasion gives information about His nature. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Not unusual, but that one flew right over my head... :dontknow:  :winkgrin:

[Paul Hazelwood]

To say that God has his limitations I think is saying he is not supreme, or highest in rank, that there are other forces that are stronger than he is.

I can see that you perceive that, but it is not what I am saying. 

When I state that God cannot lie,  it can be percieved that as a limitation,  but I see it as a supreme strength.   I see any limitation to my perception as something I need to learn why it is a supreme strength.

I have no problem if you disagree, but I am simply making it known that if you imply I am saying something is stronger than God, it is not true.

[Molly]

When I state that God cannot lie,  it can be percieved that as a limitation,  but I see it as a supreme strength.

Agreed.  He is truth.  The truth cannot lie.

For which reason we can trust him.

[WhiteWings]

When I read back all the posts I think many have missed, imo, what sin is.
Sin is missing the mark. Or breaking the rules.
If we look at the 10 commandments:
13 You shall not kill/murder.
14 You shall not commit adultery.
15 You shall not steal.
16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

It's always "you" (mankind) not "Me" (God)
God only sins if He breaks a rule. But stricktly speaking the above rules do not apply to God. So He can't break them.

If I make a person sick I'm doing a bad thing.
When God makes Job sick He's testing Job.
To me it seems God plays with another set of rules as we do.
Just like a 18+ person is allowed to drink alcohol but a 17 year old is breaking the law when doing so.

[Lefein]

We should remember where the term we use "omnipotent" (all powerful) comes from when it comes to God's nature Biblically.  Omnipotence is as the English reads; Almighty which is to be "all-mighty", "all strong".

God cannot lie, this most certainly is not a limit on God's supremacy - Paul is right in saying this.  God can do nothing weak, or in weakness, everything he does is abundantly beyond our expectation in goodness, glory, and provision, and in general just all sorts of good positive stuff.  God does it all (good) and all things he does with strength.  We need not ever pick up a Bible and fear that we see God doing something "weak".

With this in mind...

Sin of any kind is weak, lowly, and without strength.  Sin is weakness, sin is not strong, neither is it strength, and never shall it be.  Not being able to lie (which is to sin) is not a limitation or a weakness...not being able to lie removes weakness by creating a perpetual fence of character that says in essence this; 

"I am so powerful, that I cannot be dispowered, or made weak, there is nothing, no situation, no circumstance, no voice, no higher thing, idea, or nothing that can make me lie, not even myself - I am supreme over even my own abilities, I am not able to be disempowered even my my own power." 

God's inability to sin, is not a limitation, it is rather his supreme ability to never be able to disempower his righteousness, and strength - by engaging in sin which is nothing, and the worst of all weaknesses.

In application, God did not invent this "weakness" that is sin, or evil.  It came, and comes when people become distant from the source of Strength, and his grace.  When you don't exercise, or partake of the nourishing source of strength - you become weak, it is a simple unchanging truth.

God maintains control, for he can strengthen by his all-strength, his almightiness, his supremacy even over weakness - for he cannot be weakened or disempowered.

[livingwater]

I have to agree with Paul and Lefein on this one thing, God is not evil, he is not a liar, murderer, rapist, or any of the bad things. Everything that God does is good, perfect, loving, honest, and for the good of all mankind. I believe we should think of God in these terms, knowing that everything will work out for the good and perfect benefit for all mankind.

Now, does God use all these things to bring about the conclusion, the final outcome the good of mankind, I believe he does. I don't understand all of it now because we see through a glass darkly but someday we will know as we are known.

To say that God has his limitations I think is saying he is not supreme, or highest in rank, that there are other forces that are stronger than he is. I don't think that anyone would disagree with the fact that God existed before anything else did and that none of the things that exist would exist without God bringing them into being. If something existed before God and things just happened without God being the instigator then I would be worried that whatever this thing is would disrupt God's plan. How could we trust God if there is some force that exist without God having control of it? I would have to say "well sure but what about this other thing that is in force, that God cannot do anything about".   

All of this reasoning boggles the mind. One thing I feel confident of is , I know my God lives and he is in control of all the things that effect me and the rest of the world. I know that he has my best interest at heart and will not let me down. I know that no matter what anyone else says that God is for me and he is supreme above all powers and principalities. God deals directly and indirectly with us all. He is head of this corporation of which I am a part. He has a lot of powers and humans working for him but they do not work independently of him.

Just had to get that off of my chest.

CHB

But since Jesus said he and the Father are ONE, and we are one through Christ; and greater works we will do; and WE have the mind of Christ; then what's to stop you from killing abortion doctors, killing rapists, smashing babies heads against the rocks, having people eat each other, skinned alive, burned at the stake;  after all....It is Christ working in you to do his GOOD pleasure; which for some this good includes all these things. 

LOVE is the answer. 


LOVE revealed is not imo through a "dark glass".   It is known.  when we lay down our life for our brother; not murder, rape kill them. 

just my one cent.

[jabcat]

When I state that God cannot lie,  it can be percieved that as a limitation,  but I see it as a supreme strength.

Agreed.  He is truth.  The truth cannot lie.

For which reason we can trust him.

A question though is, does God use tools to perform His purpose?  Did He send a lying spirit as He said He did?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Exactly, WW..... :thumbsup: