The Problem of Evil

[Lefein]

Let us not forget Micah, that you, and I, and others from the Pope to the recent convert after reading Origen - are a part of those who are the "some" who "say" anything about anything.

I've become a bit surprised as of late how quickly men, after having left corporate traditions of the church will quickly build up their own private firms of it pretending to be the right company.

[thinktank]

I think the problem is that once the devil sinned this new knowledge of evil rippled throughout the cosmos, causing temptation for all beings who have access to this new heavenly knowledge. With this new knowledge many beings fell and got tainted by it and so we must now work out our salvation and overcome evil by following the example of the good sheperd who did overcome this new threat, to love one another and love conquers this new forbidden knowledge.

This reasonates with me but I hope it doesnt cause to much of a stir, there are probably crazier theories on this forum. I often saw this place as a school, but I also see it as a battlefield, because many horrors take place here, that I find is just too 'way out there' for God to have designed this school to be exactly like this.

[Molly]

Molly, " Some say the passage on Lucifer....."  thats just about all one can say about that doctrine of man, 'SOME SAY."

LOL Ok, I will say, 'I and others say.'  I was just trying to avoid an argument because I know what the arguments are.  So much for that idea.

He is Heylel, the Shining One, and he desires not only to exalt his throne above the other Elohiym [the stars of God], but also to sit on the north side of the 'congregation' [the assembly of the Divine Council] and be his own Priest [as opposed to a Priest of the order of Melchizedek].

[thinktank]

Do you know molly why is he called son of the morning star?

because Jesus is refered to as the morning star in the book of revelation. But also the same book mentions that as a reward a saint will have a morning star.

[Molly]

Do you know molly why is he called son of the morning star?

because Jesus is refered to as the morning star in the book of revelation. But also the same book mentions that as a reward a saint will have a morning star.

He tried to take a position that was not his.

It's ours.  And, it's being given back to us.

[Lefein]

Satan is a being who expresses the epitome of selfishness, self-centeredness, and self-confidence, and especially self-worship, I believe.

"bow to me", "I will" - amongst other things.

When you turn your focus inward into the self itself (the self not in God, but the self in your own self adoration), you stop seeing God, you become separated from him, and you begin to die - and the sting of death is sin.

Satan by looking at himself, becoming selfish - died and so began to sin.  He brought forth selfishness, I am certain.

[jabcat]

So is it fair to say some believe Satan is able to create things?

Also, that God didn't know what was going to happen?

Further, that if God created evil (if you don't believe that, what do you do with the scriptures that say He did?), then that makes Him, Himself evil?

OTOH, what IF God could create evil, use it for a good purpose, and that not mean evil was actually in Him, or that He Himself was evil?  Is it possible our finite minds could not comprehend such a thing, but it still be true?  Can anyone really say they fully understand, can grasp, and contain all the complexity and immenseness of God?  Or if He doesn't fit what we personally like, understand, or accept, does that really make Him unlovable or not worthy of our acceptance and praise?  What if He's not exactly what we want or would choose for Him to be, so we ascribe our own thoughts and desires upon Him, then call Him names, "diminish" Him, and fight against Him?  Do we then find another god that is more palatable? 

I'm not one to take an extreme hardline position on this, other than to search and say what the scriptures say.  Again, maybe there's some things that are interpretational that are in question.  But we can't do away with the scriptures that state 'ra' comes from God.  (Tony's posts on 'ra', calamity, evil, etc.).

Much to think on.  Maybe this is one of those topics where no one's necessarily convinced by someone else's thoughts, but something in which we "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling"...

[Molly]

When Satan [the Nachash] shows up in the garden, he has already rebelled.

He has one goal, to corrupt God's Man, Adam, and take his position and authority.

The lamb slain from the foundation of the world--

"the foundation"

G2602
καταβολή
katabolē
kat-ab-ol-ay'
From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.

G2598
καταβάλλω
kataballō
kat-ab-al'-lo
From G2596 and G906; to throw down: - cast down, lay.



"of the world"

G2889
κόσμος
kosmos
kos'-mos
Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.


So we see the beginning of the story for us--Adam is created--and then through the Nachash, the kosmos--orderly creation of God-- is cast down, and Adam is thrown out of the garden where he walked with God in the cool of the day [spirit and light].

That's the beginning of the story for us, and Satan--yes--the Nachash--yes--the Shining One--is a liar from the beginning, as we see so clearly in his discourse with Eve.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I don't understand why this is such an affront to consider that God created the darkness/evil for His purposes? Jesus PROPHESIED that not one stone would be left upon another, ie. the DESTRUCTION of the temple.

Prophesying is not like fortune telling! It's DECREE-ing the King's decisions. A lot of people were slaughtered; men, women, and children, and thousands ran for their lives to the "hills", for fear of death.

So......Jesus prophesying/speaking in the authority of God's Spirit, wasn't the cause of the destruction, it was those "bad Romans" that did it all to the "bad Jews" who didn't choose Jesus, right?  :dontknow: How "unloving" that was of Jesus to speak what He heard His Father speak.   :winkgrin:

God's love is not just a fuzzy feel good emotion like man's much lesser version. It's a SPIRIT, and we can no more understand that aspect of Him apart from that Spirit with the reasoning of our own carnal minds, than we can understand any other part of Him without it. My  :2c: Blessings....

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/jewishtemple.htm

[CHB]

Rape is mostly revenge and power, murder is hatred, theft is greed, greed is lusting after the wrong things.

Ok, if we never experienced or knew about these things, how would we know if they were wrong or evil? How would we know what murder was if it never happened? Would we learn to forgive, feel remorse, love, or any of the many things we feel if not for the good and the evil we see, or experience around us?

In order to see what you say about evil one has to ignore a lot of scripture, how do you do that?

Where did evil come from? Why do we sin? Why aren't we perfect? Did God make a mistake and can't fix things? Is he so blind and weak, or does he just ignore the whole situation? This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil? Have you ask yourself these questions?

Why was the crucifixion planned before man was even created if he had nothing to do with sin? Why did God choose his own son to be a sacrifice?

(Ecc. 3:1) "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven". How would you explain this verse?

CHB

[thinktank]

Of course it was the bad romans that did it. Their hearts were evil and their works testified of that. Just as the works of Jesus testified that he was good.

I disagree that prophesy is not fortune telling. I believe that prophesy is a future prediction, but words of faith are decreeing the kings command. I.e im sick but by faith I decree that I am healthy or will be healthy.

There are a few examples where prophesy did not come to pass in the old testament, such as when God said that Nineveh be destroyed, but the people responded and they repented.

For Gods holy spirit fire is forever working and trying mens hearts that they may repent and for God to turn away from judgment


I agree though that God does actions that are deemed as evil, as the old testament shows, extreme punishment from a loving God. if he were not a loving God the punishment would not be looked upon with such horror, but regard it as normal thing for an evil God to do.

The old testment though is not really a great book to showcase Gods character. The old testament is more about laws than love, probably because mankind back then, didn't care much for love, but were more interested in pride and rule following.

:2c:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Did you word that right, TT? You DIS-agree that prophesying is NOT fortune telling???  :mshock:

[Beloved Servant]

The old testment though is not really a great book to showcase Gods character.
:2c:

wow.

[thinktank]

:cloud9: Did you word that right, TT? You DIS-agree that prophesying is NOT fortune telling???  :mshock:

doesn't come from the same source obviously  :laughing7: but where do fortune tellers get their power from I don't know. Most people assume the devil, but I think there are people who have natural talents.

[Lefein]

So is it fair to say some believe Satan is able to create things?

It is of my opinion that he cannot create, only distort, or remove.  God builds a house, Satan warps the wood, and punches holes in the walls saying "I made a hole!" not really, he just removed a chunk of house.

Also, that God didn't know what was going to happen?

God knew it, and so he allowed it for the sake of ensuring it wouldn't happen again in the new creation, since evil has been overcome fully, and destroyed.

Further, that if God created evil (if you don't believe that, what do you do with the scriptures that say He did?), then that makes Him, Himself evil?

Yes, it makes him evil if he created it.  The scriptures must have a different meaning than creating "sin" of which is the most common idea behind evil.  If God invented a method of sinning (and I must emphasise the barbarity of sin, because so many of us forget the actual implication of the word, when we are in theological discussion) then it came out of his imagination, his heart.  If it is in his heart, if sin is a fruit he has produced - he is a bad tree.

OTOH, what IF God could create evil, use it for a good purpose, and that not mean evil was actually in Him, or that He Himself was evil?

An impossibility, if I can be so bold.

Is it possible our finite minds could not comprehend such a thing, but it still be true?

God is higher than we are, and loftier...but we have the mind of Christ - and for all the mysterious ways in which God works, he is not so grandiose and wise that he is above common sense, the most beautiful, practical form (IMO) of wisdom.

Can anyone really say they fully understand, can grasp, and contain all the complexity and immenseness of God?

Is God so untouchable that he is unable to be fellowshipped with by our childlike conscience?  God exceeds in abundance, and infinite benevolence in his goodness, holiness, righteousness, these are mutually exclusive to producing evil, sin, in any form.

If we take a stance that says; "God is righteous in his sin" or "God cannot lie, and invented lying" our gospel becomes a divided house, so does our god, and we lose.

Or if He doesn't fit what we personally like, understand, or accept, does that really make Him unlovable or not worthy of our acceptance and praise?

Eternal Damnation?  What shall we say to the Calvinist?  We are so disturbed by Hell, and we say that such a god who would eternally burn his people and torture them without hope is without worth or praise, and is not god, and that the bible was mistranslated - hence here we are at Tentmaker...Yet why should we with the same mouth relocate Hell from the afterlife, only to bring it here on Earth, and call it God's doing?  No matter how temporary.

What if He's not exactly what we want or would choose for Him to be, so we ascribe our own thoughts and desires upon Him, then call Him names, "diminish" Him, and fight against Him?  Do we then find another god that is more palatable?

If God is not as good as we being finite can imagine with our finite minds - then it would seem to me that God is diminished by his merely being out-classed by our vision of a better God, who is truly better; our imagined god not having a single evil thought, bone, or purpose in his divine omnipresent body, or fruit produced out of it even hinting at sinfulness...in the face of this proposed real god, who produced every last bit of what is wrong with the world.

If however we are diminishing God by calling him names, and he really did create evil, we are merely calling him what he is, and if he really does have infinite grace like UR professes - then we are safe in the hands of the wicked Lord...or is his grace limited, and he will torture us, or destroy us for his own evil?  Under that idea; UR is indeed a false gospel.

I'm not one to take an extreme hardline position on this, other than to search and say what the scriptures say.  Again, maybe there's some things that are interpretational that are in question.  But we can't do away with the scriptures that state 'ra' comes from God.  (Tony's posts on 'ra', calamity, evil, etc.).

I read somewhere that "create" can also be translated "cut down".  But I understand your position.

Much to think on.  Maybe this is one of those topics where no one's necessarily convinced by someone else's thoughts, but something in which we "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling"...

Indeed. 

__ __ __

Remember this though assembly; Blind faith can't see God.

[micah7:9]

Now let us apply this to the subject we are considering. Evil exists, things that seems utterly antagonistic to God and His way, but which we are sure from the foregoing considerations to be in some sense of God, in harmony with His will, and conducive to the furtherance of His plans. Now then, is there any principle of action, just and righteous in itself, that will account for the existence of evil and indicate its ultimate result? There certainly is such a principle, thus: It is a recognized principle in law, equity and morals that it is right and just to inflict or permit temporary evil for the sake of an ultimate and permanent good. This principle, all will see is certainly correct. It is upon this principle that all punishment of any kind is justifiable, and it is only on this principle that it can be justified. Punishment is an evil, but it is an evil that may ultimate in good, and when it is inflicted for such a purpose, it is right and just. Now we know from numerous examples, many of which I have given in this article, that God acts upon this principle. He uses evil as an instrument for good. Admit that this principle is correct and that God acts upon it, and all is at once accounted for an dits final result indicated. This sweeping conclusion may not at once be clear to all, but a little thought will show that it is fully justified. If it is right to use evil as an instrument for good, and if God acts upon this principle, the principle fully explaining and justifying the act, then is it not reasonable to conclude that all evil is so justified? We cannot enter sufficiently deep into God's plans to be able to explain the how and the why of each individual case, but, once admitting the principle, and seeing numerous examples of its application that we can understand, the conclusion is fully warranted that this principle applies to all cases.

Of course, no one could accept this conclusion who believed in endless torment. The above principle will not explain or justify unmitigated and eternal evil. I have already shown that such evil really dethrones God, or at least shares His throne with Him, which is equivalent to dethroning Him. To say that evil is absolute and eternal is to fully invest it with attributes peculiar to Deity and thus to make it "equal with God" (Jn. 5:18; Phil. 2:6) at least in some respects; but this cannot be. At that rate there would be two gods, a good and a bad one, and each of them would eternally exist and be eternal foes. To such a frightful conclusion does the doctrine of the eternity of evil lead us. Let those believe it who can. But, if we take the Bible teaching on this subject, the principle enunciated fully accounts for and explains the existence and purpose of evil. It may seem to some that this principle cannot apply to all evil. They are able to see how some evil may be overruled for good, but that all the terrible forms of evil can be so overruled seems to them impossible. but such a question is simply on of degree. If God can make some evil conducive to good, can He not so make all evil of whatever from or quantity? If it is true that God uses evil for good at all, how can we tell, not knowing perfectly God's plans and methods, just what kind of evil and just how much evil God will so use? We must conclude that all the evil we see about us in every horrifying form and in all its vast amount comes under the same category of part and parcel of the great plan that through sin, corruption, chaos and death is moving on to holiness, purity, order and life eternal.

[thinktank]

The old testment though is not really a great book to showcase Gods character.
:2c:

wow.

well apart from a few books such as the psalm which talk mostly about Gods grace and in some ways greater in peace than the gospels.

But my main thought was that generally the old testment is seen as the law giver or the old covenant message, which is mostly about laws.
:2c:

[Beloved Servant]

Blind faith can't see God.

That makes no sense to me.

What is faith in God?

It is truly blind, believing in things unseen.

[micah7:9]

When Satan [the Nachash] shows up in the garden, he has already rebelled.

He has one goal, to corrupt God's Man, Adam, and take his position and authority.

The lamb slain from the foundation of the world--

"the foundation"

G2602
καταβολή
katabolē
kat-ab-ol-ay'
From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.

G2598
καταβάλλω
kataballō
kat-ab-al'-lo
From G2596 and G906; to throw down: - cast down, lay.



"of the world"

G2889
κόσμος
kosmos
kos'-mos
Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.


So we see the beginning of the story for us--Adam is created--and then through the Nachash, the kosmos--orderly creation of God-- is cast down, and Adam is thrown out of the garden where he walked with God in the cool of the day [spirit and light].

That's the beginning of the story for us, and Satan--yes--the Nachash--yes--the Shining One--is a liar from the beginning, as we see so clearly in his discourse with Eve.

That is the most undermining story of my God that I have heard, except when I read Dake and his theory. The [the Nachash] shows up in the garden, there was no showing up, the serpent was there already and na,ed by Adam. So there was no showing up. Only in the theories of Dake and others do you find this rebelling you speak of. If you want to believe that Jehovah God created a "thing" that had the power to topple the one who created him, then you have a sorry god, and you better watch out if he rebelled the first time, the next time(Im sure he learned something) maybe he will take down your god as well.

[Beloved Servant]

The old testment though is not really a great book to showcase Gods character.
:2c:

wow.

well apart from a few books such as the psalm which talk mostly about Gods grace and in some ways greater in peace than the gospels.

But my main thought was that generally the old testment is seen as the law giver or the old covenant message, which is mostly about laws.
:2c:

Have you read the Song of Songs?

[jabcat]

Actually Lefein, though I don't believe in ET, and though I've done more than enough other things wrong, I've never been so bold as to say a God who would have invented ET is evil, or twisted, or bad, etc.  I don't think that's my job.   :dontknow:   I ask questions, state what I think I understand.

I do want to know God as He Is, and I believe He is a God of Ultimate Restoration.  But I hope I never presume to tell God Who He is or needs to be.  I may find myself railing against something I simply do not as yet understand.


I will agree with anyone that says God is only good, there is no evil in Him. 

I sincerely doubt we can fully understand all that means or entails.  For instance, was God being good, or bad, when He caused the flood to come and kill (at least) thousands of people?

I believe good, though again, my natural mind can't fully wrap itself around it.  But I hold in faith that it was good,  because God and His ways are perfect.  I can only more fully accept this by humbling of myself before an Almighty God and with the renewing of my mind by the Spirit.  This one example exemplifies many other scriptural events of like nature.

I agree, again, that God is good, perfect, and I believe anything we experience here is not worthy of the glory that will be revealed in us.

[thinktank]

The old testment though is not really a great book to showcase Gods character.
:2c:

wow.

well apart from a few books such as the psalm which talk mostly about Gods grace and in some ways greater in peace than the gospels.

But my main thought was that generally the old testment is seen as the law giver or the old covenant message, which is mostly about laws.
:2c:

Have you read the Song of Songs?

Yes I think so, thats the one where solmon woes his lady. Have not read it for a long time though.
There are other books I enjoy such as Genesis, Daniel and Isiah.

[Molly]

The [the Nachash] shows up in the garden, there was no showing up, the serpent was there already and na,ed by Adam. So there was no showing up. Only in the theories of Dake and others do you find this rebelling you speak of. If you want to believe that Jehovah God created a "thing" that had the power to topple the one who created him, then you have a sorry god, and you better watch out if he rebelled the first time, the next time(Im sure he learned something) maybe he will take down your god as well.

I have no idea who Dake is.  Does he read Hebrew?  Then I might listen to what he has to say.

the serpent was there already and na,ed by Adam.

I don't know what this means.  Is that a typo?  The serpent was not already there; he is not seen at any time in Chapter 2 of Genesis.

If you want to believe that Jehovah God created a "thing" that had the power to topple the one who created him

I never said Satan toppled the one who created him, did I?  But, he did topple Adam, God's creation.  And, he continued to do so until Jesus.

[jabcat]

P.S.  The same God that for 35 years, I thought invented and enforced ET, is the same God Who visited me with His Spirit at age 12 and saved me. 

[thinktank]

I sincerely doubt we can fully understand all that means or entails.  For instance, was God being good, or bad, when He caused the flood to come and kill (at least) thousands of people?
jabcat

He was doing evil, but that's why he calls it a strange thing. He also promises never to do such a thing again, by creating the rainbow as a token of remembrance.

Where he did learn this evil? Did he aquire ths knowlege from the devil and then use this as a tool for his His purposes. A bit like how a rightous man might steal and do evil in order to do good by feeding his familly. (assuming he took all other paths of course, otherwise he'd just be lazy) The book of proverbs say that if a man steals for bread do not hurt him.