The Problem of Evil

[Lefein]

So our heavenly father came to kill, steal, and destroy so that we might forgive him?

So our heavenly father beat, molested, and pillaged us like a drunken mad man so our long suffering selves might let our grace abound upon him and his wicked state?

[Pierac]

CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

:dontknow:


Paul

[Lefein]

Yet, in the midst of all of this "ends justify the means" business, we find God no longer benevolent, or sinless - but beating, molesting, and pillaging.

These facts, providing that God is indeed the author and doer of these things whether directly, or by proxy; cannot be ignored.

Even if we became supreme beings and gods out of it - it doesn't change the fact that God himself did wickedly.  If God's goal is to make us like himself, and he does this by subjecting us to his own acts of sin disguised as trials for our betterment "ends justify the means" then we are more like him now than we are when sanctified and pure.  Satan is closer to being God than Mother Theresa ever was, and Jesus is the rebellious one who should have been cast out of Heaven for going against God's nature, and divine intent in making us like himself.

[livingwater]

Joh 8:18  I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.


Joh 17:11  And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
I and the Father are one. 

Rom 15:6  That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Mat 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4  Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6  Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7  Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8  Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9  Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11  Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

1Co 13:4  Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5  doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.


I and the father are one. 

For you have the mind of Christ

[WhiteWings]

a] If you kill someone it's called murder. If you murder you go to jail.
b] But if you do so during war it's killing. If you kill enough you get a medal.
c] If the executioner pulls the switch of the electric share he get's payed for it.

The state has a monopoly on legal killing.
Maybe we are facing the same thing in this thread.

[Lefein]

Livingwater: Yes, all of those things are true; provided that God is not the doer of evil (sinful, wicked, depraved) deeds directly, or by proxy.

Whitewings: As I stated before, the difference between evil (the King's English dual usage) and evil (sinning) is like this;

Will a father with his right hand swat a child's behind to correct him - and with that same right hand strangle him in order to achieve the same end of obedience?

What good purpose does a father have to send a violator to destroy the innocence of his daughter?  What good purpose does a father have to send a murderer to his little children?  What good purpose does a father have to subject a man to starvation, and poverty?  And then after doing all of this - what right does he have to punish his tools for doing their job?

Such a god as that, is not a god at all but a monster.  I think we do have an issue of more than motive, or ends justifying the means, but the very nature of God himself.  Does God sin?  Why are his acts against the innocent, different from ours?  Is God a hypocrite?

I say that God does not sin at all, he is nothing but good, and will forever be so, and has never once did anything, or created any evil.  There is something wrong with the translations, something must be up - otherwise if God does sin, and has created evil, then there is something worse than a mistranslation, but a miscreation altogether.

[livingwater]

Livingwater: Yes, all of those things are true; provided that God is not the doer of evil (sinful, wicked, depraved) deeds directly, or by proxy.

Go with your heart Lefein. 

If Jesus was one with the Father, and the Father is this evil torturer, murderer, liar and calls evil good (all for a purpose to humble people); then Jesus would not have imo preached Matthew 5-7; would not have turned the other cheek;

and since we have the mind of Christ; we too will demonstrate the fruits of the spirit. 

If we are one with the Father too, and he is an evil God, but for a purpose; then we too have the right to muder, rape, etc in order to humble those "sinners"


Let LOVE be your guide, after all YOU are LOVE.

[Lefein]

If we are one with the Father too, and he is an evil God, but for a purpose; then we too have the right to muder, rape, etc in order to humble those "sinners"

At last, someone who understands my plight?  I hope so.

[livingwater]

If we are one with the Father too, and he is an evil God, but for a purpose; then we too have the right to muder, rape, etc in order to humble those "sinners"

At last, someone who understands my plight?  I hope so.

I understand LOVE  :)

[thinktank]

Amen. God cannot sin, but yet people say he not only is within the person that did the sin but then also ordained it to happen and then God turns around and says that the sinner must repent.

[livingwater]

1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not abideth in death.

1Jn 3:16  Hereby know we love, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

[Lefein]

"God is good"

"When?"

"All the time"

God is good all the time.

[thinktank]

Why callest me good? only God is good.


There is no darkness within him

[thinktank]

Ye are of the father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do.

Father= loving owner, life bringer of son, but also

Father = source

lusts come from the devil? Because he invented it?


lust = natural affection, but twisted with lies to become distorted affection/love often producing horrofying results

[Lefein]

According to my understanding; Evil is the distortion, perversion, or absence of good things, and things made for good intent.

Rape is the selfish use of sex, murder is the selfish use of survival, theft is the selfish use of giving, greed is the selfish use of blessing, amongst many other examples.

[Molly]

Thinktank..."He does this by using the thing that the devil invented, called evil and uses that invention which is simply rebellion, even as a tool to bring people to Christ, he makes good out of evil."

The devil invented??? 
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."

"why callest thou me good, only He is good, even God"

"How can light dwell with darkness"

1 John 3:8 
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hmm two scriptures with opposing views so which scripture is true, lets reason together.

One says that God is the creator of evil but another says that when one sins they connect to the devil, because he invented it.

How is God the creator of evil?

Did he not create all beings good?

But some rebelled, he charged his angels with folly.
Job 4:18   
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

So if God is the maker of all things and the creator of the evil beings is that true?

Did God create the devil? No, but he did create him though. Did God test Us to do Good or evil? But we choose to do evil. So did God test his angels to see whether they did good or evil? I think the test was maybe that God would create a new being, mankind after his own likeness, a being that has his very nature, a being that could in effect be as boss over the angels, because we are as gods. This might have annoyed/frightened some to rebel and so they failed the test of loyalty. Is God to blame for his own creation rebeling against him? Should he not as a perfect God give his creation the right do do as they please and let them be free, rather than slaves to him. For God did not want slaves, he wants friends. Jesus said to his disciples
I no longer call you servants but friends for a servant does not know what his master thinks.
We have access to the heart of God, I think this is the key difference between mankind and angelic beings, we have a intimate relationship with God, while angels are servants. God says to Gabriel, Go here and Go there and he goes without question, but we can ask "why God?" And God says "because the man needs your help, go my son". Our experience here on this plane, proves our loyalty to God that we are fit enough be be called Gods sons, for it is not wise to put an untested being of god like powers in authority.

I think that's the gist of it, but theres allways more to learn.


10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. [5] 12 When ye come to appear [6] before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, [7] even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve [8] the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

God doesn't like evil, why would he create it? in him there is no darkness at all.

A good tree does not produce evil fruit and neither does an evil tree bring forth good fruit.

TT  :thumbsup:

Lefein, You know God because you know Jesus.  In these last days, God has chosen to speak to us through his Son.  Trust what you know.

I agree with TT, that it is a rebellion.  The buck stops with God, so He is taking responsibility for it and he is dealing with it.

He sent his Son because he is dealing with it.

We don't know the whole story yet, but this we know--if we have seen Jesus, we have seen the Father.  Trust Jesus.

[thinktank]

Evil is the distortion, perversion, or absence of good things, and things made for good intent.

Rape is the selfish use of sex, murder is the selfish use of survival, theft is the selfish use of giving, greed is the selfish use of blessing, amongst many other examples.

Rape is mostly revenge and power, murder is hatred, theft is greed, greed is lusting after the wrong things.

not saying your wrong though, because it's not written in stone as to the motivations. One might murder out of love for their familly. Many suicide bombers sacrifice themselves to save their famillly from gang threats.

[jabcat]

The scriptures say satan sinned from the beginning.  Where does it say he created evil or sin?  I may be wrong, but I don't think it does.

[Lefein]

not saying your wrong though

Even I see through a dark glass, trying to express the simple truth that in evil, exists all evil intent, and all evil acts, whether adultery, theft, rape, murder, or greed contain all evil.

In essence, we are both right.  You merely pointed out one slice of the orange, and I pointed out the other.  :thumbsup:

__ __ __

But I am content now, because I have peace and biblical backing, and an inward answer that I can hold on to.

God did not create evil, not in any way that we are attributing that creation; this "Let there be evil, and so evil came" type of idea.  God is the Tree of Life, and a tree who produces good fruit alone.  In him there is no evil, and his produce knows nothing of evil, neither are they evil - he creates no sin.  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

P.S.  I have a hard time with this too guys, but there's a bunch of scripture that says God creates and sends evil, which IMO, has
to be reconciled before we can take a legitimate hard stance.

Some interpretations of definitions, rightly dividing of evil vs. wickedness perhaps, calamity vs. sin, etc., but still I'd suggest we not say the scriptures don't say what they say, or add things that (I think) aren't there (satan created evil).

Thoughts?

[jabcat]

I've entertained the idea that maybe God created beings who were able to then create/originate things (sin, wickedness).  But then, even if that were the case (albeit, the scriptures state that ALL things exist in and from God, don't they?  maybe I'm misinterpreting) - then we still have God creating those beings, knowing full well what they were capable of AND what they'd do.  Isn't that correct?  And if so, then what does that mean, what are the ramifications?

Did God lose control and now He's got to fix it?  Did it take Him by surprise?  (Hint :  the Lamb slain FROM THE FOUNDATION of the world).

[thinktank]

The scriptures say satan sinned from the beginning.  Where does it say he created evil or sin?  I may be wrong, but I don't think it does.

Jesus calls him the father of lies.

Its also impossible for something that is good to produce or create something that is evil, jesus gives us the parable of how a good tree produces only good fruit. God is perfection and cannot fail, but his creation did falter.

Did God know they would falter?

I don't think he did, but in his great wisdom he uses the fall as a tool for good and knows that he will win back his creation.

The lamb slain from the foundation , could be a clue that he knew the fall was going to happen, but the question is when did the fall take place, some people believe the angelic rebellion took place in Genesis 1.2 before the foundations of earth were put back together again.

[Molly]

The scriptures say satan sinned from the beginning.  Where does it say he created evil or sin?  I may be wrong, but I don't think it does.

From the beginning of what, though?  From the beginning of his creation?  Or from the beginning of the age?  Satan was created a subtle being.   This characteristic gives him the opportunity to forge a rebellion.  Is it therefore God's fault if he does so?

"subtle"

H6175
ערוּם
‛ârûm
aw-room'
Passive participle of H6191; cunning (usually in a bad sense): - crafty, prudent, subtil.


Just because we don't see Satan before he appears in the garden, does not mean he didn't exist before then.  Some say the passage on Lucifer is about Satan, making him one of the most beautiful of all God's creations--before he rebelled.

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

--Isa 14

[Lefein]

Jabcat; God's intent is to bring "good" to "glorious", it is not out of God's control that creation became tainted, George MacDonald once had the thought that God is shaking Heaven and Earth so that what is incorruptible, and unshakable will remain.

According to my understanding, God allowed evil to be formed like a mold on his creation that was good, so that the possibility of evil later would be completely removed in his creation that is to be glorious, and immune.  He himself however, did not produce the "mold" on his creation.  Being separated from him; Life, it entered into Death, and so it began to rot, and the mold began to form.

[micah7:9]

Molly, " Some say the passage on Lucifer....."  thats just about all one can say about that doctrine of man, 'SOME SAY."

How could God ever reveal Himself to man in His mercy, long-suffering, and compassion if it had not been that evil had put us into a position to call for the exercise of these attributes in our behalf? And especially how could God manifest to us His love in all its intensity and greatness except by such an opportunity as evil furnishes? As it is written, "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because God sent His only Son into the world that we might live through Him," (I Jn. 4:9) and there could have been no such manifestation of the Father's love if there had been no such thing as evil. We might believe that a friend loved us even though his love had never been especially tested, but we never could appreciate his love unless circumstances transpired to give him an opportunity to exhibit it in all its strength and fulness. So, too, we never could understand fully the love of God (and hence never could know Him fully, I Cor. 13:12, for God is love) had it not been for our lost and wretched condition furnishing the Father with an adequate opportunity for its manifestation. It was "when we were yet without strength" that Christ died for us. "God commendeth His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." (Rom. 5:6). It was because we were in such an evil case, without strength and sinners, that the love that sent the deliverer is so marked and readily appreciated. Hence "hereby perceive we the love of God because Christ laid down His life for us." How should we have been able thus to perceive that love in its so great plenitude if we had never come under the power of evil so as to need this extreme manifestation of it?
Furthermore, as evil gives God an occasion to reveal himself to us so that we may know Him, so it gives us the opportunity to exercise the attributes of God so that we may become like Him. The existence of evil in the world gives the child of God the opportunity for the exercise of the godlike attributes of mercy, compassion, forgiveness, forbearance, meekness, and gentleness and thus he becomes like God; for, if ye do these things, ye shall be the children of the highest; for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust, and is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. (Matt. 5:45; Lk. 6:35). Thus we see something of the purpose of evil in the blessings of mankind.
In addition to all this we have other direct testimony from scripture that evil is one of God's ministers for good. It is clearly intimated again and again that God uses evil for the accomplishment of His plans, which, of course, are always good. See, for instance, Judges 9:23. Read the context and you will see that Abimelech by a most atrocious crime had obtained the rulership of Israel, and to punish him, "God sent an evil spirit between him and the men of Schechem," and the result was the punishment of all the guilty parties. See the same idea in I Sam. 16:14. "The Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him." This evil spirit did not come from the devil nor from hell, but from the Lord to do his bidding. See also I Kings 22:23 where the Lord is represented as using a "lying spirit" in order to deceive wicked Ahab for his own destruction.
The case of Job is one of the most striking and perfect illustration so this wonderful truth. The Lord speaks of him as "My servant Job, there is none like in in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God and escheweth evil." (Job. 1:9). Thus it appears that Job was a remarkably good man, and this is confirmed by Ezek. 14:14, 20. Now then, what does God do but deliberately hand over this perfect and upright man into the hands of Satan to do his worse upon him, only that he should not touch his life. How could we have a more perfect illustration of how God uses evil as an instrument for good? Although Job suffered intensely, we know that in the end he was greatly blessed by his hard and bitter experience. If God thus uses Satan, the embodiment of evil, as a minister for good in the case of one individual, is it hard to believe that all evil is overruled of God for good in all cases?
The New Testament teaches the same truth. Did you ever notice how strangely the evangelists Matthew and Mark speak of Christ's temptation? The Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil, and he was there with the wild beasts. (Matt. 4:1; Mk. 1:12-13). What a strange statement! The Holy Spirit of God drives the sinless Jesus into the wilderness among the wild beasts to be tempted of Satan, the arch enemy of all good, a murderer from the beginning, and the father of lies! Truly God creates evil and uses it, too, for His own purposes and glory! The apostle Paul fully understood this great truth and practiced it himself. Hence he writes to the Corinthians "to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus," (I Cor. 5:5) and he declares in his letter to Timothy that he himself had delivered certain ones unto Satan "that they might learn not to blaspheme." (I Tim. 1:20). It would seem also that the apostle knew something of this kind of discipline himself, for he says, "Lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure." (II Cor. 12:7). All this clearly proves that God overrules evil for good, that even Satan's work shall result in blessings for God's children. (Part of, "the Purpose of Evil" by A.P. Adams)