The Problem of Evil

[Lefein]

Interesting, I'll look at them later probably - as it is very, very late...

But I have one question left;

Did God invent every manner, and method of wickedness?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi Paul.  Not arguing your position, I don't like to argue.   :bigGrin:

I would though be interested in how you see the scriptures in Isaiah I listed earlier, as well as the one micah posted (sorry, I'm at work and on this computer, if I try to g back and look something up sometimes I lose where I am - they're the posts several back, you probably already saw them anyway).  Anyway, what's your understanding of those verses?  Thanks, James.

James I'm sure you know by now that someone arguing with me has never been a problem, it is when someone makes personal comments towards me acting as if they have not done anything of the kind that sets me off and I haven't found a reason to feel bad about that yet.  :)


If you are talking about Isaiah 45:7 post #56 addresses that.

If the other verse is this one this simply is a verse helping to reinforce the understanding of why we are to love our enemies.  Some religious thought especially the prosperity doctrine teaches that if bad things happen to you it is because you are bad and good things happen if you are good. It is nonsense because this is telling us the complete opposite is in effect.

Despite reaping what we sow, evil people still can reap good harvests when they abound.

Mat 5:45  That ye may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens: because, his sun, he maketh arise on evil and good, and sendeth rain, on just and unjust.


If it might be this one

Col 1:17  and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.

The reality of God is that by nature he exists completely everywhere in and through all things, Evil exists within God not because he causes it, but because his spirit is not actually non existant where evil is present.  It is to reinforce the fact that no matter how bad things get God has not left and gone anywhere and that his assurance that all will be made right is still present.

Rom 9:21  Or hath not the potter a right over the clay out of the same lump, to make some, indeed, into a vessel for honour, and some for dishonour?

Ro 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:





The above verses in blue comes back to two things, 

1.  We all are Gods children,  those who do evil and those who do good and probably when it comes right down to it, there is none that have not done both. We are all from the same God.  It is again telling us that if we do not love our enemies then we hate someone God loves. 

2 This reminds us that there are things that must be and God cannot change them or there would be no reason for him to be longsuffering. We are fitted to destruction most often through the actions of our own will because we are free to make choices that bring pain and suffering, that is just how it is.  None of that thwarts the assurance from God that all will be made right.  God knows what must happen the same way we learn to know that we cannot rip open a cocoon and actually be doing a good thing.

[jabcat]

Thanks for the reply Paul.  Much to consider, for sure.

Lefein, I personally don't fully know or understand the depths of this topic.  I've got more praying, seeking, openness, and humbling to do.  I've probably said enough, and though I'm one to really struggle with weightier matters, sometimes in the midst of it I personally have to go back and touch on some basics, finding some rest therein.  I'll share these 2 that are special to me;

Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not just because of what you told us, but because we have heard him ourselves. Now we know that he is indeed the Savior of the world."  John 4:42

No, O people, the LORD has told you what is good, and this is what he requires of you: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.  Micah 6:8

[WhiteWings]

Simple question: Name one thing that's not created by God.

Lying, and lies.  If he created these things, then he is the Father of Lies.

Who created the creatures with the possibility to lie?

Did God create the possibility to die? Does that make God the God of death?

[WhiteWings]

According to my understanding:

The devil wasn't always the adversary,

He was a murder from the begining.

For what good purpose would God have to have made a "red headed step child" to constantly throw down, if the devil is innocent and only doing as God intended for him to do?  Such a thing is inedible to a spirit who knows that God is love.

That kind of logic can easlily be turned against you.
Father could have created everything in a sinless state. 10 billion copies of Jesus. He did not. He for example created Romans who killed Jesus.
So Father is a murderer....?

We can't use therefore, the excuse "God made the devil" as a run about for God creating lies.  Evil is not an entity, it is the absence of Good, something that is absence, is not a "thing" it is an absence of "thing".

God created all things, he did not create absence.  Lies are the absence of truth.

If truth is the goal and many don't know it then:
a] It's all according to plan.
b] He failed at creating things that know the truth.
c] He lost control and Jesus is a backup plan to fix the problems of evil.

[WhiteWings]

Interesting, I'll look at them later probably - as it is very, very late...

But I have one question left;

Did God invent every manner, and method of wickedness?

People with limited brains invent things. I think God never invented a single thing. He just knows.
Because He knew all that would happen even before creation He also knew about all wickedness.
Still He created the way He created. Don't you think He could have created a sinless creation?
If yes; why didn't He? Was this the best He could do? Did He accept certain 'side effects"?

[Lefein]

So basically we can boil down the whole universe to this phrase;

"Who needs Eternal Damnation when we can worship Hell himself and call him Father?"

[Paul Hazelwood]

So basically we can boil down the whole universe to this phrase;

"Who needs Eternal Damnation when we can worship Hell himself and call him Father?"

I think for the most part if you view God a certain way then talk about that.  Everyone has a view of scripture and hope that they have seen God in the correct perspective.   Others can say God did this or that for a good purpose I simply see it differently than some and that is what I will tell people about.

What do you actually believe about God or are you relying on one of us to figure it out for you?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I see it this way.....we were all lowered into a state like that of coal. We were diamonds before we were lowered, reflecting His light. After He processes us here (and hereafter) we will be diamonds with our own portion of His light. Diamonds are formed from tremendous heat and pressure in the earth.

Light is the spectrum that goes thru a diamond giving it "life" and fire, and you can see colors in the diamond via it, that you couldn't see before without the addition of the light. The bow in the cloud promise, is a promise of covenant, that means those "clouds" will have their own rainbow, the 7 spirits of God, the fulness, after going thru the fire.

What sense does it make to complain about the process He uses, ascribing evil to it and to Him, because He uses the fire (brand) and pressure to accomplish that which is eternal, fruit that remaineth, within the framework of that which is temporary and fleeting? Our lives here are as grass that withereth. My  :2c:

[Lefein]

Paul: I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality.  However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness.

I want people to think, I want people to get it through their heads the full application of their god, I want people to be certain about who they are presenting to the world under the name Yahweh.

And most importantly, I want people to realise the full scope of a weird god, who not only invented (yes, invented, fathered, produced, by what ever word you choose caused every thing wrong with the world) evil.  And on top of all of this has assigned no means of autonomy to man - but has programmed his path blink, step, and falter.

It is this sort of god who ordains a man to kidnap a child, torture it, molest it, cut it in pieces, and stuff it into a shallow grave in the middle of nowhere; and sees that it is done according to His will - because the act of brutality was God's will, edict, ordinance, command, and pleasure where he has invented wickedness, and bereft man of autonomy.

This sort of god is nothing short of Hell incarnate.  We can forget love, we can forget trust, we can forget even believing he is holy, or good.  And worst of all we can forget Hope - because out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, and the world and all that is in it were made by his word; if evil is one of those things that God has made by his own creative power, then he has spoken it into being, and out of the abundance of his heart wickedness came, and so his heart is full of wickedness, and he is wicked.

If this is God, then we are doomed to never be free of wickedness, in fact we are doomed to be one with the very heart, and imagination of every sin riddled idea possible.  What good is it to be saved if we run from Satan into a Supreme Evil?

Evil is not a thing, anymore than cold is a thing, there exists only good, and heat; the less good, the more evil, the less heated, the more cold.  Evil and Cold are absences of Good and Heat.

It serves no good purpose for God to make wickedness, it makes him worse than Hell, and it makes him a divine hypocrite.  People can say "its for a good purpose", tell that to the people who have gone through crap that most of us here in the west will never be able to imagine.  People want their god to be so powerful that he causes everything wrong to happen in the universe, and then expects us to drop all caution and run bolting into his arms saying;

"Daddy Daddy I know you just put me through the worst thing I could have ever imagined, you raped me, molested me, beat me, tortured me, lied to me, broke my body, diseased me, and I'll never be able to have functioning relationships ever again, I'm ostracised, poor, and have a serious case of depression, anxiety, and stress disorders, all my friends left me, my only mate stole all of my stuff and ran out on me with another right in front of me, and it is all thanks to you - but I love you so much Daddy, I know you'll put me through even more horrid things, because you're Love, and Love hurts people because he loves them  :cloud9:  :HeartThrob: "

That is the god who made evil, wills for it to happen, sees it done, and then expects us to turn to him for more...out of "Love".

Should I blindly trust such a god?  Should I accept him as my father?  Or should I run from him, run as fast as I can from the divine brute that he is, hoping desperately that by some sheer miracle of fate beyond him that I can obtain autonomy enough to kill myself, and hope to never cross his path in the world after?

[micah7:9]

So basically we can boil down the whole universe to this phrase;

"Who needs Eternal Damnation when we can worship Hell himself and call him Father?"

"However, evil is not really a created thing. You can't see, touch, feel, smell or hear evil. It is not one of the fundamental forces of physics, nor does it consist of matter, energy, or the spatial dimensions of the universe. Still, skeptics like to claim that God created evil and cite the Bible to "prove" their point. The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.1" (From your website godand science)
Religious folks believe in the adversary/satan/devil and  adversary/satan/devil is not a created thing, at least not that I can find. I will believe Col 1:16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
The Lord has given me the mind of Christ, thus He has given to me His understanding as to the Truth that His is in and through ALL things "the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him, Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[micah7:9]

"I see it this way.....we were all lowered into a state like that of coal. We were diamonds before we were lowered,"(Cardinal)

Just when were we diamonds? (I know its a metaphor.)
1Co 15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."1Co 15:47 The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. (ASV)
1Co 15:46  Nevertheless, it is not what is spiritual that came first, but what is animal; what is spiritual came afterwards. (WNT)

[Lefein]

The Lord has given me the mind of Christ

If God is the author of evil, then the mind of Christ is nothing less than vile, and full of iniquity.  But I too have the mind of Christ, yet here I am displeased entirely by such a terrible doctrine that has been presented.

According to my understanding...God isn't wicked, and he doesn't father wickedness.

___ ___ ___

I want to know, I want the answer; why is it so gosh darn important to you people that God is the author of evil, wickedness, and everything wrong with the universe?  And do any of you even fathom what that even means?

Really, I'm quite puzzled at the sheer weirdness of accepting such poison.

[jabcat]

Religious folks believe in the adversary/satan/devil and  adversary/satan/devil is not a created thing, at least not that I can find. I will believe Col 1:16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
The Lord has given me the mind of Christ, thus He has given to me His understanding as to the Truth that His is in and through ALL things "the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him, Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
Peace and Love Through Jesus

Sometimes our religious views are just really hard to let go of, brother micah.  I fight and struggle to see things my own way, in a way that my mind thinks "makes sense".  Sometimes we just can't see, until there's a breaking process that brings us to where we're ready and able.  Here's another scripture that goes along with your quote above;

Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.  Romans 13:1     

Isn't that more evidence God uses all things for His purposes?  As Card said, our lives here, compared to "eternity", are but a wisp, that quickly vanishes.  God will end it all in good. 

What if we were aware, and even in agreement of what role each of us would play in this life?  (Ernest Martin teaches on this.  Not sure I fully agree, but it's at least an interesting thought).  Whether or no, God is only good and He will bring all to a perfect conclusion.   :2c:

[jabcat]

Lefein, this is a discussion.  No one needs to make the other see things their way, nor should other people's understanding of scripture be called poison, if they are truly attempting to get their beliefs from scripture, and not just willfully twisting things.  There are a lot of great lovers of God who hold this understanding.   

You've said a lot of things about God and now Jesus, that if you're wrong in your POV, are indeed some very strong words.

You just may want to think about it.  There's been no one in this discussion that have broken forum guidelines by saying the scriptures are false, there's just different interpretations...we don't have to always like that, but we may need to realize that's the way it is.  We look through a glass darkly.  We can share, discuss, but only God brings true understanding. 

[micah7:9]

The Lord has given me the mind of Christ

If God is the author of evil, then the mind of Christ is nothing less than vile, and full of iniquity.

Well if those are your true feelings and thoughts, then perhaps this is where Paul was at when he said
1Co 5:4 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (you being gathered, and my spirit, together with the power of our Lord Jesus),
1Co 5:5 to give up such a one to Satan for the extermination of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

When you first began posting, to me, you were a positive poster of God' work, now lately it seems you have turned to a negative veiw of God's work. I say this of a truth I love you and I pray you find His way.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Lefein]

Negative to God's work?  No.  Negative to people calling injustice the work of God, calling injustice goodness, calling sin virtue, and turning a holy God into a monster.

[jabcat]

I'm locking this thead for 10 minutes.  I'll reopen it, but I want to give everyone a chance to think, perhaps pray, and regroup.  It may help us be more on-track.  Hang tight, consider how you wish to proceed....

[jabcat]

it's reopened.

[WhiteWings]

Lefein, I can understand that you have great problems with God managing evil.
I have great problems with God drowning people in the flood, roasting the people of Sodom, ordering to kill pregnant women, etc.
Problematic but still scriptual...

[Lefein]

I'm beginning to wonder what the difference is between the Yahweh of this assembly, and Zeus...

[jabcat]

Lefein, I can understand that you have great problems with God managing evil.
I have great problems with God drowning people in the flood, roasting the people of Sodom, ordering to kill pregnant women, etc.
Problematic but still scriptual...

That's why I say sometimes I don't fully understand it, or always like it.  The only things I personally know to do are to read the scriptures, ask God for understanding and wisdom, humble myself before Him, and trust Him - and believe that WHATEVER the Potter does, it's best for His clay, is for His glory, our ultimate good, and everything will be perfect.

[Lefein]

On the advice of Jabcat, I am leaving this topic to seek God in prayer.

If God really is the author of Evil, which I hope to be right in saying he isn't...Then I hope I have not fully upset the Deity into tearing off every blessing I've asked for and smiting me with all of the evils he has made.

I am not at peace, I do not feel life in me, or joy, or happiness, or even remotely safe, and I do not feel secure, these are not good omens.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'm beginning to wonder what the difference is between the Yahweh of this assembly, and Zeus...

Not everyone here thinks the same way so I at least would appreciate if you don't lump everyone together.

[Molly]

I agree with you, Lefein.  Only good comes from God.


James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.