The Problem of Evil

[Beloved Servant]

I come here to avoid the world, don't bring its trash in with you.

You aren't of the world, but you are still in it; Get used to it, if you've come here to avoid the world, then you're in a sorry state, and are failing miserably in your task as a son of God, blood bought, and given authority to bring light to the darkened earth!  You're a city on a hill, and here you are hiding in a valley...and closing your gates to the enemy because you want to avoid the war...? -_-  Or have I misunderstood you entirely?  I hope it is the latter.

...Alas it seems only Jabcat has the bravery to even come close to answering.

Where is the fruit in this assembly?!  I am certainly tired of leaves.

The army moves when the trumpet sounds.
Until then sit at His feet and learn from Him.

[micah7:9]

Rom 9:21  Or hath not the potter a right over the clay—out of the same lump, to make some, indeed, into a vessel for honour, and some for dishonour?
There you go Jabcat.

And Beloved I, me contend, that the trumpet is sounding and as the army was after latter rain, many are staying right where they were.

[jabcat]

Oh, and P.S.  I'm quickly backing back out of this discussion, as it appears it may need moderated if things don't settle.   :mshock: :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

thanks micah for the reference  :HeartThrob:

[Lefein]

Jabcat; It doesn't take common sense (and I say this gently) that if God created evil, he created everything wrong with the world.  And I don't think anyone knows quite what kind of god that would be.

People want to pretend that a deity who made evil is all powerful, no it merely means that in his imagination he devised wickedness, rape, murder, and all manner of horrors - slavery, human trafficking, abortion, torture, ruthlessness, abandonment, godlessness, blasphemy.

From his Imagination, God spoke into being, and created.  God is no exception, out of the abundance of his heart his mouth spoke, and if his mouth spoke to create evil, then evil is abundant in his heart, and if evil is abundant in his heart, then the Lord our God is a wicked sinner...

I am not railing against something I don't understand, I am railing against the foolishness of what people don't understand when they call our God wicked by proxy, even unkowingly.

[jabcat]

Not saying I got it all figured out, I don't brother...but I believe those scriptures must be reconciled - appropriately, rightly divided.  The word there is 'ra', which has been hashed and re-hashed on earlier threads. 

Suggestion;  it might be interesting and enlightening to go back and explore some of those threads.   :2c:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Lefein, read Deut. 28 and see if anything there in the list of curses looks familiar to your life, or that of your generations, and note WHO said these things would come upon those that were disobedient. We might be out from under the literal law, but the spiritual laws that are the root of the literal, are in effect until all the flesh is overcome.

God also said in another place, "Agree with your adversary while you are in the way with him." We are to humbly agree with whatever judgement to the flesh has come our way, it's not pleasant, but it is a greater test of our love for our Father to know that HE has used the firebrand to chastise us, and to humbly submit and still love Him no matter what, than it is to rail against the firebrand. My  :2c:

[jabcat]

P.S.  I use it often, and it's a little weak, but sometimes by using the search feature on the main discussion board page some decent results come up.  I'd think 'evil' would bring up quite a bit of results.  Another  :2c:   :bigGrin:

(Good word for us all, Card).

[micah7:9]

Listen my friend and brother, God in His infinite wisdom created evil to humble His creation. Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"
I am one who believes that the incident in the garden was not a fall, but a step.
Jehovah God knew that man would need the very knowledge of the tree that He charged man not to eat of. He knew that before man could appreciate good, man would have to know evil.
Yes, Jehovah God created evil-bad-calamities-trouble, and He knew man would have to "walk" through it to get to the good.

2Co 5:18  The all things, moreover, are of God,—who hath reconciled us unto himself, through Christ, and hath given, unto us, the reconciling ministry:—
He RECONCILED us, HE DID IT!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, He knew exactly what was going to happen in the garden, for the simple reason that He knew once the commandment came (don't eat), what was in Adam (both of them were named Adam) that HE had made, would raise up. And then sin, as Paul said, taking occasion by the commandment, SLEW THEM. My  :2c:

[Lefein]

Cardinal, there is a mighty difference between chastisement, and evil.

A father might use his hand to swat the bottom of his child, that is goodness, the curse is his sore bottom.  But for the father to strangle the boy with that very same hand, is an evil thing that is heartless in the way of God.

[Cardinal]

Cardinal, there is a mighty difference between chastisement, and evil.

A father might use his hand to swat the bottom of his child, that is goodness, the curse is his sore bottom.  But for the father to strangle the boy with that very same hand, is an evil thing that is heartless in the way of God.

:cloud9: Yes, but I can tell you there is greater work POSSIBILITY inherant in greater evil situations, because where sin abounds, grace much more abounds. But it is a supreme test to praise God thru it, and force the flesh and emotions to see God's hand in it. I speak from experience here, as my then 20 year-old son was attacked and beaten with steel pipes and brain damaged from it, and only given a 20% chance of survival, so severe were his injuries.

I now KNOW by experience, don't just BELIEVE it from scriptures, that what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good. The difference as always, is in the motive of the heart, and though it may look evil to us, God means it to produce good fruit.

In this case, my son recovered 90%, a verifiable miracle, a witness to everyone he came in contact with in the hospital and rehab, was saved 2 weeks after getting out, and was even able to pray for his almost murderers, something his mother here could not yet do at the time. My  :2c:

[micah7:9]

Heb 5:12  For, even when ye ought to be teachers, by reason of the time, again, have ye, need, that one be teaching, you, what are the first principles of the oracles of God, and have become such as have, need, of milk, not, of strong food;

Heb 5:13  For, every one partaking of milk, is unskilled in discourse of righteousness, for he is, a babe;

Heb 5:14  But, to such as are mature, pertaineth, the strong food, to them who, by reason of habit, have their organs of perception well trained for discriminating both good and evil.

[Lefein]

Why pray tell should I love a god who has invented every kind of wickedness, and subjected all of us to it for his "good" pleasure?

[jabcat]

It might be helpful to take that to God - open, humble, admitting ignorance and asking Him to help you understand and give you wisdom.  It's something I pray sometimes ("help me see, give me wisdom"), but I sure do need to do it more often.

If we can clear our mind of preconceived ideas and just ask Him to "let me see", I believe He will honor that request.  Sometimes it may be instant, sometimes slowly through trial, tribulation, and pain - but all part of the growing process. 

P.S.  I believe we need to love Him as He is, not how we wish, understand, or insist that He be.

[micah7:9]

It might be helpful to take that to God - open, humble, admitting ignorance and asking Him to help you understand and give you wisdom.  It's something I pray sometimes ("help me see, give me wisdom"), but I sure do need to do it more often.

If we can clear our mind of preconceived ideas and just ask Him to "let me see", I believe He will honor that request.  Sometimes it may be instant, sometimes slowly through trial, tribulation, and pain - but all part of the growing process. 

P.S.  I believe we need to love Him as He is, not how we wish, understand, or insist that He be.

:thumbsup:

[jabcat]

I'm still working on it/He's still working on me with it.  ...and miles to go before I sleep...

[Lefein]

There is a man who I will call, George, and he has a daughter who I will call, Melanie.

This girl is seven years old, and ran away from her father after being told she couldn't watch TV after 9:00; she's only a child, she ran about a block away from the house out of rebellion.

The father, George, sent his sons who I will not name, to retrieve her.

He told his sons, to beat her with a rake, and drag her back home.

They did so, and she ran away again this time from being beaten with a rake.

He then told his sons go go and beat her with a shovel, and drag her back home.

They did so, and upon his sons returning her, he told his daughter;

"I love you, don't run away again."

The daughter has since then lived in wretched fear of George, and her brothers.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I do not intend to make light of miraculous events but to address the root of the problem.  As I have said before, if God is as we get taught, this limitless being that can do absolutely anything but what he does do is all justified because he says he is God, then there is no true distinction between good and evil.   For the human it is only a matter of finding that connection between the image of his creator and his own actions that gives the illlusion of the humans righteousness in all he does.

The root of the issue is if we really cannot understand what God will and won't do because it is God,  For that to be true then it is impossible for any human to assert with scripture or otherwise anything about him.   We see this all the time, someone will assert that we cannot understand why God does something in the midst of explaining the TRUTH that they see and make assertion of THEIR understanding when the one explaining their take on God has simply contradicted themselves and the whole notion that "we cannot understand".

Once you assert that "we cannot understand" you lose the position that you can explain anything about God at all.


We can understand.  I understand that God does not cause evil, he does not think it, and I do not have any reason to entertain such things because The God I serve seeks to destroy it, not to cause it for a good purpose,  it's nonsense.

Why as believers are we instructed in such a manner to seek God and then only be told that we cannot understand by people promoting their understanding.  The contradiction alone speaks for itself.


I am fine with believing that what tradition has told us about the justifiable acts of God is poppycock.   You can say I do not understand, and perhaps if I have to understand that God "caused" my neice to get raped for a good purpose, then I'll gladly be an atheist as I am much better off than having to think my faith must include such putrid garbage as that.

Seems I think an under tow of fear still exists within the realm of this undeniable love we are supposed to embrace, perhaps it isn't loving God as he is, it is the picture we are told to embrace that is indeed wrong.    I won't believe it and if that causes an issue and God smites me or something, then indeed I was right and God is evil after all.

[jabcat]

Hi Paul.  Not arguing your position, I don't like to argue.   :bigGrin:

I would though be interested in how you see the scriptures in Isaiah I listed earlier, as well as the one micah posted (sorry, I'm at work and on this computer, if I try to g back and look something up sometimes I lose where I am - they're the posts several back, you probably already saw them anyway).  Anyway, what's your understanding of those verses?  Thanks, James.

[jabcat]

These 2 -

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.  Is 45:7

Rom 9:21  Or hath not the potter a right over the clay—out of the same lump, to make some, indeed, into a vessel for honour, and some for dishonour?

If you will, plz share how you see these verses...your thoughts may help with this admittedly difficult topic. 

[Lefein]

It must mean calamity, or else God has wickedness in his heart, and he is not perfect, let alone Holy, and has no right to call himself Holy.

As for authority to make vessels of honour, or dishonour; having the power to do something doesn't mean you exercise it; if the verse somehow implies that the vessels are permanently for the purpose of honour, or dishonour.  Another idea; Having the power to humble a person by humiliation, and honour another be exaltation is not set in stone.

If I have the power, I can humiliate a man and dishonour him for disobedience, and a multitude of unrighteous things - and then exalt him into a vessel of honour upon his repentance.  Not a single one of us lumps of clay have yet to be fired in the kiln, we are all still upon the wheel.

[Lefein]

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html

[jabcat]

I'm going to look at your link Lefein.  I also went on the TM homepage, typed in evil, and found these 2 links.  I HAVE NOT READ THEM IN THEIR ENTIRETY, though I did read perhaps 2 % of one and 1/2% of another.  I'm going to look at them more closely, so without fully knowing what's in them, I'm posting them off the Tentmaker recommended reading page;

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html



http://www.tentmaker.org/books/SpiritOfTheWord/027ThePurposeOfEvil.htm

[jabcat]

Actually, interestingly, I see now that one of the links is entitled "The Problem of Evil" - same as this thread.   :mshock: