The Problem of Evil

[CHB]

Simple question: Name one thing that's not created by God.

Lying, and lies.  If he created these things, then he is the Father of Lies.

(John 8:44) says that the devil is the father of lies. But you have to ask yourself who created the devil? This is one of those indirect dealings with man.

CHB

[Lefein]

According to my understanding:

The devil wasn't always the adversary, unless God purposefully created on purpose a monster who is as vile as the doctrine of Hell that came out of the devil's very mouth.  In which case, God would have no right to punish him for doing what he was made to do.  Yet punished we find him being, rebuked, cursed, and otherwise.

For what good purpose would God have to have made a "red headed step child" to constantly throw down, if the devil is innocent and only doing as God intended for him to do?  Such a thing is inedible to a spirit who knows that God is love.

We can't use therefore, the excuse "God made the devil" as a run about for God creating lies.  Evil is not an entity, it is the absence of Good, something that is absence, is not a "thing" it is an absence of "thing".

God created all things, he did not create absence.  Lies are the absence of truth.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Have to disagree respectfully, Lefein......evil IS a thing, not merely the absence of good. I have been placed in the presence of pure evil more than once, allowed to be by the Lord, one time of which initially brought about my conversion experience.

I can tell you firsthand, though you may not believe it, that the 20 minutes I estimate I experienced that first time, brought with it a level of fear on to the soul that is nearly indescribable. I don't think if you fell off a cliff, the level of fear would be any less.

The very air surrounding this "thing" felt evil, and waves of hate accompanied it, that you could perceive. I believe the mental institutions are full of people who have had this same sort of experience and they were not believed, or simply lost their minds from it. Had I not turned to the Lord I would have been in the latter category. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Lefein]

Just because you can "feel" the gut twisting immensity of pitch black darkness, doesn't mean it is an entity.

I likewise, must respectfully disagree.  My Father is too good to have made a monstrosity - and if he has, his trustworthiness is grossly diminished...and he is not worthy to be called Love, in my honest opinion.  If God has created evil as an entity, and by his own hands made a monster, then certainly there should not be a problem with Eternal Damnation, because a deity capable of that sort of wickedness in creating a horror, is fully capable of torturing even the saints for ever, perpetually, and exponentially, without ceasing, for even the littlest of crimes. 

I believe that God is nothing short of Hell if he brought forth evil as an entity - a monster.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think we're talking apples and oranges now that I've read your last post.......you're talking evil as a principle and I'm talking evil as being(s) that are quite real.  :dontknow:

[Lefein]

Cardinal: I believe we are, so I shall clarify.  I am indeed talking about Evil in principle, not those who practice it.

Beings can be evil, I believe that demons exist, and certainly evil men.

But their evil is not an entity, it is not as if they are filled with "anti-light".  That is my point.  Before there was light, there was...nothing, except God.  That nothingness is an absence, it wasn't a created absence though.  If that makes sense.

Sins, and wickedness come out of the heart, a heart that is full of God and love, and truth, and all of these good things - produces goodness.  But a heart that is empty of God, is empty of life, love, truth, peace, etc.  And being absent of these things, acts out in evil, and thinks evil thoughts.

A belly that is empty, rumbles and causes pain.  A starving person driven to desperation for food will kill to satiate that void.  A person who is "love-starved" will commit adultery, or sin to try and fill that void, that God fills with goodness.  A person who is empty of that selfless, giving, content spirit - will have a void for greed that drives them to fill their emptiness with things they can get their hands on.

Such examples like this are what I mean when I say that evil is absence.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I see; thanks for the clarity..... :thumbsup:

[Lefein]

You are welcome.  Hopefully that clears it up for everyone who may have misunderstood my vehement disagreement with the idea that "God created evil".

[Beloved Servant]

God created the Tree of Good and Evil.

[Lefein]

God created the Tree of Good and Evil.

Knowledge of*

God did not create the principle of Evil.

[Beloved Servant]

Changed nothing of the point!

[micah7:9]

God created the Tree of Good and Evil.

Please expoud I am perplexed with your brevity

[Lefein]

Knowledge of something is alot different than making it.

I have knowledge of whoredom, but do I go out and sell women, taking young virgins and making them sluts for hire?  No.

I will warn my sons, giving them knowledge of murder, but did I invent it?  No.

__ __ __

This has become nonsense, and it is time for a good answer;

Why is it so important to you people that God create the principle of wickedness?  To have made evil?  Do none of you know what that means if he has created literally, the most horrid thing to ever have plagued life itself?  Do none of you see the hypocrisy in God if he has made Sin - if he is the Father of Sin?  The Father of Lies?  Having invented lying?

[Beloved Servant]

Off topic, but, your constant referral to whoredom is taxing.
Would you mind???

[Beloved Servant]

How could Adam and Eve have partaken of the knowledge of something that did not yet exist?
Silly.

[Lefein]

Off topic, but, your constant referral to whoredom is taxing.
Would you mind???

I could honestly care less.  I refuse to stop using what I personally see as the epitome of evil just to please you.  You're an adult, I don't have to hide the world from you to make a point, and neither will I do so.

[Lefein]

How could Adam and Eve have partaken of the knowledge of something that did not yet exist?
Silly.

The Serpent existed before Adam did, either way you look at it.  Silly.

[Lefein]

Enough of these avoidance games, I want an answer!

This has become nonsense, and it is time for a good answer;

Why is it so important to you people that God create the principle of wickedness?  To have made evil?  Do none of you know what that means if he has created literally, the most horrid thing to ever have plagued life itself?  Do none of you see the hypocrisy in God if he has made Sin - if he is the Father of Sin?  The Father of Lies?  Having invented lying?

If there is one thing I despise, it is a coward, who is brave enough to actually gird themselves up like a man and answer the tough questions?  Anyone?!

[Beloved Servant]

Off topic, but, your constant referral to whoredom is taxing.
Would you mind???

I could honestly care less.  I refuse to stop using what I personally see as the epitome of evil just to please you.  You're an adult, I don't have to hide the world from you to make a point, and neither will I do so.

I come here to avoid the world, don't bring its trash in with you.

[jabcat]

There is an understanding among some that God has a Huge Plan, that in some ways is beyond our limited scope of understanding.  Thomas Kissinger writes about it in "The Noble Berean".  It's available online.  It includes God lowering mankind into this condition for a season, teaching us, while in the process, bringing us back to Himself - and all the better for it.


American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Bible in Basic English
I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

World English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

Young's Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

[Beloved Servant]

...and praise Him for it!

[Lefein]

I come here to avoid the world, don't bring its trash in with you.

You aren't of the world, but you are still in it; Get used to it, if you've come here to avoid the world, then you're in a sorry state, and are failing miserably in your task as a son of God, blood bought, and given authority to bring light to the darkened earth!  You're a city on a hill, and here you are hiding in a valley...and closing your gates to the enemy because you want to avoid the war...? -_-  Or have I misunderstood you entirely?  I hope it is the latter.

...Alas it seems only Jabcat has the bravery to even come close to answering.

Where is the fruit in this assembly?!  I am certainly tired of leaves.

[micah7:9]

How could Adam and Eve have partaken of the knowledge of something that did not yet exist?
Silly.

Well it seems as tho from what I have read on some posts here Adam had "knowledge" death or what would the Lord God have threaten Adam with it for if he hadnt?  As far as I know death did not exist...silly.
And I agree about the trash thing too.

There should be no misunderstanding, either God is ALL and in ALL or He is not. If God did not create evil, and Light, then that God aint the God I believe in or have any desire to believe in.

[jabcat]

Reference above Isaiah 45:7.

Amen Beloved Servant.  He deserves our worship, praise, and our walking humbly before Him.

I can't quote exactly, but I'm reminded of the scripture along the lines of "what does the clay have to say to the potter who has made him so?  Nothing, we don't have a thing to do with it, it's His prerogative.  Do I fully understand it or always like it?  Nope, but my "job" is to walk humbly before my God.

[jabcat]

Lefein, I ask this gently but honestly;  knowing that the following is often true about myself;  are you sure you aren't railing against something you just don't as yet understand?  At least please consider the possibility...