The Problem of Evil

[rosered]

:cloud9: In the beginning, was GOD........nothing else. So where did anything else come from if not from His creating?

:thumbsup:   



Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: The darkness in and of itself is "neutral", which is why He pronounced it good, even very good. The difference is the MOTIVE OF THE HEART. His motive is pure, His ways are not our ways. It's a tool, which implies something being USED, to an expected end.

Let's take a murdering spirit, for example. UN-righteous use is killing your brother. Righteous use is using that to put Christ to death on the cross, that thru Him all men might be saved. Only God can use evil to destroy evil.

God knew and said that the thoughts of men's hearts were only evil (wrong motives) continually. He knew that, not only because He knows the thoughts of men, but because He created their hearts to begin with. We could not know what evil was, unless we experienced it, and we couldn't experience it had we stayed in heaven as we were, with Him from the foundation of the world. My  :2c: Blessings.....

But what you are saying is very different from before. What you said above is that God has knowledge of both good and evil, this is truth and he even put this knowledge in the garden of Eden or at least another possobility is that the devil put that tree in there, because Ezekiel said that he was in the garden of eden.
But whether God put the tree there or the serpent, this is simply saing that God shared this knowledge of evil with man, it does not mean that God created evil, which is an entirely different concept altogether.

  :cloud9: It's "neutral" UNTIL it's in "use". He created the waster to destroy, did He not? The difference once again, is in HOW it's being used. Ever wonder why He used serpents to slay the rebellious that wanted flesh and not manna, and then made them look up to a serpent to heal them?

And the devil didn't put the tree in there. There were 2 trees in the MIDST of the garden. There was a golden candlestick and a table of shewbread in the midst of the Tabernacle. The tree of life = candlestick, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil = the table of shewbread. The table of shewbread is representative of experience gleaned from walking out the law of God (for one thing), which is still in effect (spiritually) until the Spirit has fulfilled it in us. 

We knew not what sin was, until the commandment came. The serpent was in the tree already; the law ministered condemnation which ministered death to the hearer. That's why when they took the mercy seat (right motive of Spirit personified in Christ) off the Ark, they were slaughtered. The death (serpent) was in the law/tree. My   :2c: Blessings....

[Lefein]

I've always maintained that it was not the tree itself that caused the knowledge (honestly, I think it was just a normal tree, if not a special species of normal tree that doesn't exist on earth anymore, providing the literal account is literal).

I believe that the tree was just a tree, but it was disobedience that opened their eyes.  The fruit, or tree had nothing supernatural to it, or property to it.  The actions toward it was where the power was derived from.

(according to my understanding)

___ ___ ___

But I still desire a yes, or no answer; "Is God the author of lies?"

I don't believe he is...but I want answers from others, especially those who contend that he is the inventor of evil.

[thinktank]

:cloud9: The darkness in and of itself is "neutral", which is why He pronounced it good, even very good. The difference is the MOTIVE OF THE HEART. His motive is pure, His ways are not our ways. It's a tool, which implies something being USED, to an expected end.

Let's take a murdering spirit, for example. UN-righteous use is killing your brother. Righteous use is using that to put Christ to death on the cross, that thru Him all men might be saved. Only God can use evil to destroy evil.

God knew and said that the thoughts of men's hearts were only evil (wrong motives) continually. He knew that, not only because He knows the thoughts of men, but because He created their hearts to begin with. We could not know what evil was, unless we experienced it, and we couldn't experience it had we stayed in heaven as we were, with Him from the foundation of the world. My  :2c: Blessings.....

But what you are saying is very different from before. What you said above is that God has knowledge of both good and evil, this is truth and he even put this knowledge in the garden of Eden or at least another possobility is that the devil put that tree in there, because Ezekiel said that he was in the garden of eden.
But whether God put the tree there or the serpent, this is simply saing that God shared this knowledge of evil with man, it does not mean that God created evil, which is an entirely different concept altogether.

  :cloud9: It's "neutral" UNTIL it's in "use". He created the waster to destroy, did He not? The difference once again, is in HOW it's being used. Ever wonder why He used serpents to slay the rebellious that wanted flesh and not manna, and then made them look up to a serpent to heal them?

I've always wondered about that, why use a snake to gaze upon and live, he also used the rod of moses to turn into a snake. I belive the symbology of this is that prophecy in Genesis, where the woman would bruise the head of the serpent. This rasing of the stake by Moses was a symbol of how God was in the future going to use the devil to defeat the devil. For the devil lead Jesus to be cruxified for when Jesus was delivered he said now is the time of darkness, their time, the prince of the world has nothing in me and this was his own undoing, so that crux now becomes a weapon of warfare agains the serpents.

And the devil didn't put the tree in there. There were 2 trees in the MIDST of the garden. There was a golden candlestick and a table of shewbread in the midst of the Tabernacle. The tree of life = candlestick, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil = the table of shewbread. The table of shewbread is representative of experience gleaned from walking out the law of God (for one thing), which is still in effect (spiritually) until the Spirit has fulfilled it in us. 

That's good to know, but remember what Jesus said "the devil has nothing in me"
So how can God create this very being, the waster? I think that when it says created the waster he means that he let this serpent live. For when God does evil, such as the flood, he does it with compassion, to restore, to heal, to bring good out of evil, but the devil is evil, the father of lies.
I think I know where your coming from now, that God does evil to punish us but yet ultimately is good.
But I maintain that God is not the author of evil, but simply has knowledge of it for he knows all things, and knows what hapens when one goes against his ways and perverts it.

A question for some here How is it possible for example to create anything without it becoming evil?
I.e what can be created without potential of abuse? so hopefuly one can understand as to how the devil came about.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: He created it, I would imagine, by creating what was NOT like Him. Saying He can't do that, limits Him, IMO. He can do anything. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[micah7:9]

Darkness is not neutral, darkness is light turned down to its lowest illumination. Gen. 1:4 " and God divided the light, from the, darkness;"
DARKNESS   H2822  chôshek  the dark; hence (literally) darkness. From H2821 châshak
to be dark (as withholding light); transitively to darken. H2825 chăshêkâh  chăshêykâh  darkness;
G4655 skotos shadiness, that is, obscurity From G4639 skia Apparently a primary word; "shade" or a shadow


Job 20:26  All darkness is hid for his treasures, Consume him doth a fire not blown, Broken is the remnant in his tent.
Psa 18:11  He maketh darkness His secret place, Round about Him His tabernacle, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 139:12  Also darkness hideth not from Thee, And night as day shineth, as is darkness so is light.

Isa 45:3 And have given to thee treasures of darkness, Even treasures of secret places, So that thou knowest that I, Jehovah, Who am calling on thy name-- am the God of Israel.
Dan 2:22  He is revealing deep and hidden things; He hath known what is in darkness, and light with Him hath dwelt.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I've always maintained that it was not the tree itself that caused the knowledge (honestly, I think it was just a normal tree, if not a special species of normal tree that doesn't exist on earth anymore, providing the literal account is literal).

I believe that the tree was just a tree, but it was disobedience that opened their eyes.  The fruit, or tree had nothing supernatural to it, or property to it.  The actions toward it was where the power was derived from.

(according to my understanding)

___ ___ ___

But I still desire a yes, or no answer; "Is God the author of lies?"

I don't believe he is...but I want answers from others, especially those who contend that he is the inventor of evil.

No.

sa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things.

There was another member who got me thinking along these lines.  After contemplating this verse I found a curious thing.  We see Creator used only for Darkness and Evil,  but not for Light and Good.

Believing as I do about Gods Character it is more likely that he cuts down darkness and evil.  This would suggest that God did not create darkness and Evil as an act of his choosing, but cuts down that which is an inherant part of the only process of creation to perfection.   God is responsible based upon our creation, but it was not an act of his Will, cutting it down however is an act of the assurance that we will be one with him.


   
H1254  bara'  baw-raw'

a primitive root;

(absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as
formative processes):-- choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do,
make (fat).

[micah7:9]

I understand the create(d) of "bara" but where did the "darkness" come from if not from God?

[Lefein]

What is there in a room before you flip the switch?

"Let there be light, and there was light"

[Paul Hazelwood]

I understand the create(d) of "bara" but where did the "darkness" come from if not from God?

It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.

[thinktank]

I've always maintained that it was not the tree itself that caused the knowledge (honestly, I think it was just a normal tree, if not a special species of normal tree that doesn't exist on earth anymore, providing the literal account is literal).

I believe that the tree was just a tree, but it was disobedience that opened their eyes.  The fruit, or tree had nothing supernatural to it, or property to it.  The actions toward it was where the power was derived from.

(according to my understanding)

___ ___ ___

But I still desire a yes, or no answer; "Is God the author of lies?"

I don't believe he is...but I want answers from others, especially those who contend that he is the inventor of evil.

No.

sa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things.

There was another member who got me thinking along these lines.  After contemplating this verse I found a curious thing.  We see Creator used only for Darkness and Evil,  but not for Light and Good.

Believing as I do about Gods Character it is more likely that he cuts down darkness and evil.  This would suggest that God did not create darkness and Evil as an act of his choosing, but cuts down that which is an inherant part of the only process of creation to perfection.   God is responsible based upon our creation, but it was not an act of his Will, cutting it down however is an act of the assurance that we will be one with him.


   
H1254  bara'  baw-raw'

a primitive root;

(absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as
formative processes):-- choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do,
make (fat).

:thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's very true about the Hebrew word there  :thumbsup: As I shared in another post in the Tabernacles thread recently, fat is congealed, it cannot be turned into light until fire is added to it. All things were created thru, by and for Christ, He was as a tree cut down, cut off. Blessings.....

[thinktank]

I understand the create(d) of "bara" but where did the "darkness" come from if not from God?

It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.

rebellion

[micah7:9]

I understand the create(d) of "bara" but where did the "darkness" come from if not from God?

It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.

Okay what do I do with this Col 1:16  because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17  and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.

And since when is there a "God cannot" came from?

[CHB]

Sometimes God deals with us directly, sometimes indirectly. Take Job for instance, God didn't personally take away Job's possessions or cause his illness but he gave Satan the power to do it.

God provides circumstances and gives us choices sometimes which causes us to choose good or evil. Take Paul for instance, he said, what "I want to do I find I cannot", and what he didn't want to do is what he did. Because God gave him a heart that was deceitfully and wicked. We were made in these weak bodies which cannot resist temptation every time, which causes us to sin. So, God doesn't cause us directly to sin but indirectly he does.  Did God create sin, I would say yes he did, he created Satan didn't he? He created Adam didn't he? Isn't the flesh sinful?
God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH  (Rom.8:3). Without him was not anything made that was made {John 1:3).


CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

I understand the create(d) of "bara" but where did the "darkness" come from if not from God?

It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.

Okay what do I do with this Col 1:16  because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17  and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.

And since when is there a "God cannot" came from?

I never said evil and darkness were not something attributed to God creating us, they were not an act of his choosing.  God is responsible and knowledgable of evil because we are a creation of his.  That evil and darkness still is not more powerful than God no matter the circumstances of its existance.
Evil and Darkness are something that is within existance and all of existance is within God.


Hb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:


Ti 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;


There are some who think it is ok to say that God can lie, he just chooses not too, but you find no such description in scripture about it.


The limitations of God where we are concerned are irrevelant when it comes to our strength and power, but there afre things God cannot do and they are actually good things when the light of truth comes upon them.


1C 1:25 thatfor the stupidity of God is wiser than humanmen, and the weakness of God is stronger than humanmen.

[CHB]

It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.

Wow!! Paul you give us way too much power. If God cannot change a certain thing, then that makes that thing more powerful than God.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.

Wow!! Paul you give us way too much power. If God cannot change a certain thing, then that makes that thing more powerful than God.

CHB

No it doesn't.   God cannot lie, does that mean a lie is stronger than God?

[micah7:9]

Sometimes God deals with us directly, sometimes indirectly. Take Job for instance, God didn't personally take away Job's possessions or cause his illness but he gave Satan the power to do it.

God provides circumstances and gives us choices sometimes which causes us to choose good or evil. Take Paul for instance, he said, what "I want to do I find I cannot", and what he didn't want to do is what he did. Because God gave him a heart that was deceitfully and wicked. We were made in these weak bodies which cannot resist temptation every time, which causes us to sin. So, God doesn't cause us directly to sin but indirectly he does.  Did God create sin, I would say yes he did, he created Satan didn't he? He created Adam didn't he? Isn't the flesh sinful?
God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH  (Rom.8:3). Without him was not anything made that was made {John 1:3).


CHB

Amen!  Well said!

[micah7:9]

e

It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.

Wow!! Paul you give us way too much power. If God cannot change a certain thing, then that makes that thing more powerful than God.

CHB

No it doesn't.   God cannot lie, does that mean a lie is stronger than God?

Yes I agree with that. God does not lie, He cannot lie, but has He allowed lies to be? Yes. The Lord God will cause a circumstance to come about where we will have to use our mind, and if carnal thinking..then we will do that evil (bad) thing, but if the mind of Christ is who we listen to there will be much better outcome to the glory of the Lord. But yet that lie or that bad-evil thing came out from God.

"It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.[/quote]"
I dont believe I would say "cannot" rather I would say "will not", for He will turn the obstacle in something for His glory.

[CHB]

It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.

Wow!! Paul you give us way too much power. If God cannot change a certain thing, then that makes that thing more powerful than God.

CHB

No it doesn't.   God cannot lie, does that mean a lie is stronger than God?

Lets say God cannot lie,... although I think he could if he wanted to...I think this is another indirectly thing that God does.  What would you call this? (2Thess. 2:11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusions, that they SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE.  This is one of those indirectly acts of God.

CHB

[Lefein]

So, God just...sins side ways, instead of right in front of you?

[CHB]

Since God is the big boss and no one told him not to sin or lie therefore he does not sin or lie.

Since God is not sinful flesh nor does he have to obey any laws he doesn't, or will not, sin or lie.

CHB

[Lefein]

So, he can tell us what to do, and not do it himself?

"Do as I say, not as I do"?

[thinktank]

You seem to contradict yourself there micah, you say God cannot lie, but then say, when we lie it comes from God. In a sense you are right that the knowledge of evil has been given to man from God and gives us the right to choose blessings or cursings, but that does not mean that evil originates from God, this knowledge of evil God has given to man for the purpose of choosing between what is right and what is wrong.

The devil is the father of lies, so did God receive the knowledge of evil from the devil?

Did he then share this knowledge with man, to see if he was faithfull?

Or does God simply knew everything, without the devil, or did he have knowledge of evil because in his alpha and omega state he could go forward in time and find out what happens when a creature of his rebels. For if a creature did not rebel, how would God know what evil is? Because he himself would not be capable of creating evil, because he was perfect, and created the garden of eden in perfection, his angels perfect, the universe pefect, he created lucifer perfect but he became vain and did set his own course.

How else can a perfect God have knowledge of evil?