Heaven, Yes...Hell, No

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Lazarus Short

#200
November 03, 2015, 03:22:39 AM
Lamentations
As in Jeremiah's other book, the word "hell" is not to be found here.  Now for those who subscribe to the "abandon all hope" version of Hell, I have chapter 3, verses 26-32.  "It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord...For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies."  Hear that!  God will not cast us, you, me, anybody, off forever.  Are you not saved?  It is temporary.

At the end of the same chapter, Jeremiah calls out to God as to his personal enemies in verses 64-66 – "Render unto them a recompence, O Lord, according to the work of their hands.  Give them sorrow of heart, thy curse unto them.  Persecute and destroy them in anger from under the heavens of the Lord."  Hell or eternal torture/damnation are not asked for, so given that we have yet to find Hell up to this point, we MUST, if we are intellectually honest, restrict the meaning of "destroy...from under the heavens" to mean death at the worst.

The fate of Sodom & Gomorrah is often compared with Hell, but we have this word in 4:6 & 9 – "For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom...They that be slain with the sword are better [off] than they that be slain with hunger..."  What happened to Sodom was fire of unknown origin, but it happened in the real world.  The punishment of Judah and Jerusalem also played out in the real world, but Jeremiah notes that those killed by the sword were luckier than those who died of starvation, and these things played out in the real world as well.  Those who believe the fate of Sodom was like Hell would have a hard time explaining how death by sword or starvation would be worse than an eternity in fire, but we have the witness of Jeremiah.

In chapter five, Jeremiah seems to contradict what he wrote earlier:  "For the Lord will not cast off for ever..."
He says in verse 20, "Wherefore dost thou forget us for ever, and forsake us so long time?"  I cannot say with authority that Jeremiah meant forever as we think of it today, but note that it parallels the "long time" in the second phrase. 

At any rate, hell and Hell are not to be found in the book of Lamentations, though many would guess that Judah and Jerusalem were experiencing "Hell on Earth" after the Babylonian conquest.  Bad times, no matter how bad, are not Hell, however.




Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

Patinak

#201
November 03, 2015, 03:54:20 AM
Laz,

I, for one, really enjoy "Heaven, Yes...Hell, No". 
I especially like all of those 'nuggets' you find for us during your research; and your honest commentary, as in this recent post.

Pat

sheila

#202
November 03, 2015, 04:17:32 AM
excellant posts ,Brother,Laz.....

micah7:9

#203
November 03, 2015, 04:33:23 AM
 :thumbsup: :dsunny:

Lazarus Short

#204
November 03, 2015, 06:18:20 AM
Thank you all!  :URWelcome:
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

Lazarus Short

#205
November 14, 2015, 05:27:14 AM
Ezekiel
"Hell" is found four times in the book of Ezekiel:
31:16
31:17
32:21
32:27
As usual, it is translated from the same word, "sheol" the KJV renders as "grave," "pit," or "hell".  This inconsistency can be found even in consecutive verses, such as 31:15-17.  I don't care to delve into the whys and wherefores, but just note that it is so.

In Chapter 16, God describes Jerusalem as a cast-off foundling He saved.  He goes on to recount all the good things He did for her, and compares her to her "sisters," Samaria and Sodom.  God seems to say that Jerusalem became the worst of the lot, but then says in verse 55, "When thy sister, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."  This is an amazing statement, for the people of Jerusalem were alive, the people of Samaria were in exile, but the people of Sodom were very much dead.  Many would relegate them to Hell, but God Himself is saying that they will someday go back to their inheritance.  How can this be, unless all are saved in the end?

In Chapter 18, we find God declaring that iniquity is individual, as is righteousness.  Verse 20 states that, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."  Verse 23 goes on to say, "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God:  and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"  Then His advice in verse 31, "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"  Note that there is no mention of Hell, but a broad hint that God overcomes sin and wickedness by giving humans a new heart, a new spirit.  In other places God states that He will take out the stony heart from men and give them a heart of flesh instead.  Man cannot do this – it must be done by God, as He spoke through Ezekiel, in 11:19:  "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh."
Now here we are at Chapter 28, and I know that a lot of people insist that the subject of the chapter, the prince of Tyrus (Tyre) is actually Satan.  No, sorry, for these reasons:

The previous two chapters were all about the literal city of Tyre and the bad fate God had in store for it.  Chapter 28 is about the prince of the same literal city, and there is no subject break until toward the end of that chapter.

God says, "...thou art a man and not God..." (verse 2)
But if this prince was really Satan, don't you think God would have said so?  No, literal city, literal prince, and a man at that.

Verse 8:  "They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die..."  The previous verse speaks of terrible strangers who draw the sword against this prince, but Satan cannot be taken down with literal swords, being a spirit being.

Verse 13:  "Thou hast been in Eden..."  This does not mean that the prince of Tyre was in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve – as ever, it's all in the context.  See 27:23:  "Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad were thy merchants."  Eden is treated as a literal country like any other literal country of the time.  For more on this subject, see the books of David Rohl especially Legend.

In view of all the above I must confess that I find verse 14, which is the crux of the whole Satan argument, a puzzle, but I'm not going to set one verse against the context of three chapters of text.

Not only was the prince of Tyre in Eden, but God, in Chapter 31 personifies Assyria as a great tree, "...so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him." (verse 9)  Eden again, but it is more difficult to make a whole nation out to be Satan, so this gets ignored as a proof.

Chapter 31 goes on to speak of the death of the great tree of Assyria, and we have the usual words so often associated with "hell," such as "delivered unto death," "nether parts of the earth," "the pit," "the grave" and "the deep."  In verse 15, "the grave" is footnoted as "Or sheol, hell."  Then in verse 16 we do see "hell," but it is footnoted as "Or sheol."  This inconsistency hides a dishonest translation and theological sleight of hand.

"Hell" is mentioned in Chapter 32 (18-32), but the language of the section makes it clear that the grave and death are being spoken of.  The clincher is God stating that, "...I have caused my terror in the land of the living..." (verse 32)  Nothing is said about any terror in the realm of the dead, Sheol.

Chapter 37 presents us with the valley of dry bones, the promise of the resurrection.  Just as in Genesis, we see men re-created from dry bones as God puts flesh on them.  Notice that the finished bodies do not have life until the breath/wind/spirit enters them – then they become "the whole house of Israel."  This is a second witness to the creation of man in Genesis.

Chapters 38 and 39 cover the war of Gog and  Magog - notice that of the 5/6ths of Gog's army which are killed, there is no mention of their fate beyond, death, just as ever, simple death.

So, that's it for the book of Ezekiel, where neither a fiery Hell, nor eternal torment can be found.


Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

marie glen

#206
November 14, 2015, 06:10:29 AM
That's veRy good!! I love the whole idea of showing "no hell or torment" in each book of the bible! And I especially like the "no terror in the land of the dead" :)
"I will draw ALL to Me." [Jesus, Jn.12:32] Written in the pattern of the Holy Days? an image - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com
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Lazarus Short

#207
November 19, 2015, 09:36:05 PM
Daniel
First off, the word "hell" is not found in the book.  We do find a few fires, such as the furnace into which Daniel's three friends were thrown.  However hot it was, it was in the literal world of here-and-now (or there-and-then), so it was not Hell.  Also, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went in alive, were alive in the fire (as attested by the king), and came out alive, so it was not Hell, since you must be dead to go to Hell.  Further, One "like the Son of God" was in there with them, so again it could not have been Hell.  This must have been YHVH, or the pre-incarnate Jesus, who dwelt in the heavens.  Since we know by now that He did not create Hell, nor did anyone else, He could not have been there.  For all these reasons, the furnace of Nebuchadnezzar was not Hell.

Next, Daniel sees fire in a vision.  He writes of the Ancient of Days:  "...his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.  A fiery stream issued and came forth before him..." (7:9-10).  We know this was taking place in the Heavenlies, because in verse 13, "...one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days..."  For all the fire, this cannot be Hell, either.

Hell, then is not to be found in the book of Daniel.



Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

sheila

#208
November 19, 2015, 11:33:12 PM
 hell has been so instilled in this realm.....that we even great one another with 'HELL-O!"

micah7:9

#209
November 20, 2015, 02:12:42 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 19, 2015, 09:36:05 PM
Daniel
First off, the word "hell" is not found in the book.  We do find a few fires, such as the furnace into which Daniel's three friends were thrown.  However hot it was, it was in the literal world of here-and-now (or there-and-then), so it was not Hell.  Also, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went in alive, were alive in the fire (as attested by the king), and came out alive, so it was not Hell, since you must be dead to go to Hell.  Further, One "like the Son of God" was in there with them, so again it could not have been Hell.  This must have been YHVH, or the pre-incarnate Jesus, who dwelt in the heavens.  Since we know by now that He did not create Hell, nor did anyone else, He could not have been there.  For all these reasons, the furnace of Nebuchadnezzar was not Hell.

Next, Daniel sees fire in a vision.  He writes of the Ancient of Days:  "...his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.  A fiery stream issued and came forth before him..." (7:9-10).  We know this was taking place in the Heavenlies, because in verse 13, "...one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days..."  For all the fire, this cannot be Hell, either.

Hell, then is not to be found in the book of Daniel.

You are doing a fine job brother! It is just amazing how the Bible would be interpreted with out the mistranslated word "hell" the Good Announcement that Jesus IS the Saviour of the world would be accepted without speculation. :dsunny:

Lazarus Short

#210
November 20, 2015, 02:50:13 AM
Quote from: sheila on November 19, 2015, 11:33:12 PM
hell has been so instilled in this realm.....that we even great one another with 'HELL-O!"

Hello rhymes with Jello, both of which there is room for.  Or..."Speed on brother, Hell ain't half full yet!"
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

sheila

#211
November 20, 2015, 02:51:58 AM
 :laugh: 

Lazarus Short

#212
November 20, 2015, 02:54:09 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 20, 2015, 02:12:42 AM

You are doing a fine job brother! It is just amazing how the Bible would be interpreted with out the mistranslated word "hell" the Good Announcement that Jesus IS the Saviour of the world would be accepted without speculation. :dsunny:

Hell, even the Buddhists believe in Hell.  My whole search began years ago when I saw a full-color illustration of the Tibetan Buddhist Hell.  The main difference from the "Christian" Hell was the graphic style.  So, I began to wonder where our ideas of Hell came from...
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

Lazarus Short

#213
November 21, 2015, 06:53:14 PM
Hosea
As Daniel, Hosea did not get "sheol" rendered as "hell," just as "grave," which is not too far off the mark.  Besides the story of Hosea and his family, most of the book is devoted to God's usual denunciation of the sins, backsliding, and wickedness of the people of Israel.  Yet, in the midst of all that, is a statement, almost parenthetical:  "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death:  O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction..." (13:14)  The apostle Paul echoes this in I Corinthians 15:54.  So, for all the evil of His people, God promises to ransom and redeem them from death and the grave – not to send them on to Hell, or any such place.  In fact, He states that He will destroy death and the grave, as we shall see in the Revelation.

Thus, Hell is not to be found in the book of Hosea.     
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

Lazarus Short

#214
November 23, 2015, 03:04:55 AM
Joel
There is nothing in this book relating to our thesis, just a few mentions of fire, always in the real world.

Hell is nowhere to be found in the book of Joel.     
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

micah7:9

#215
November 23, 2015, 08:49:56 PM
Come on come on!.......find the word hell, you only have 10 OT books left!  :Peace2:

Lazarus Short

#216
November 23, 2015, 10:46:26 PM
There are only three more instances of the word "hell" left to cover - what a challenge!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm relishing getting to write that Hell is not to be found in the OT.  When I can do it for the NT I'm going to do a little dance.  :banana:
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

Eduard

#217
November 24, 2015, 12:32:55 AM
 :2c: What is hell? - sheol. What is sheol? The grave and the unseen. Sheol is not a place of punishment, as the Psalms reveal to us.

What has been translated as hell? - let's see Gehenna. The dump for all the filth in Jerusalem where abonimations in the sight of the LORD were committed . Still, nothing about eternal conscious torment ;

Hades, Tartarus - strictly pagan concepts that were perphaps adapted by the NT writers, but do not refer to what many think it is.

Death and "hell" cast into the Lake of fire.  Hell cast into what ?

O, death, where is thy sting? O, grave, where is thy victory?  :doh:  :girlheart:
Micah 7:7

But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.

John 15:5

I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

micah7:9

#218
November 24, 2015, 06:26:46 PM
"Death and "hell" cast into the Lake of fire.  Hell cast into what ?" Judgment.

Eduard

#219
November 24, 2015, 06:41:09 PM
 :iagree: Bingo!  :LH:
Micah 7:7

But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.

John 15:5

I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

sheila

#220
November 24, 2015, 06:46:41 PM
 :happyclap:  it appears...that hell itself is unseen.... :Chinscratch:

Lazarus Short

#221
November 24, 2015, 07:39:12 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 24, 2015, 06:46:41 PM
:happyclap:  it appears...that hell itself is unseen.... :Chinscratch:

Yes - I have yet to find it, though I am searching the KJV with considerable diligence.  BTW, I appreciate these posts by all of you - it is good to know that my posts and labors are being followed... :gimmefive:
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

micah7:9

#222
November 24, 2015, 09:09:09 PM
Finding hell in the Bible is like snipe huntin'

Lazarus Short

#223
November 24, 2015, 09:14:42 PM
Amos
Amos was the first prophet to write a surviving book, and through him God says against this or that group of people, that for three transgressions and for four, He would not turn away their punishment.  It is vital to realize that what God sets as punishment for all these groups, takes place in the real world, not in the afterlife.  In Chapter 3, verse 7, He says, "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."  He has yet to reveal the secret of Hell, if indeed there is such a place, just as the incarnate Christ told His disciples, "...if it were not so, I would have told you." (John 14:2)  I know both texts revolve around other subjects, but I take it as a general principle that God will tell the truth about what is and what He will do.  Keep this in mind when reading a Bible which, properly translated and interpreted, speaks not of Hell.

We see fire imagery in 4:11: "...ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning..."   This is in connection to Sodom and Gomorrah, the fiery destruction of which, as we know, happened in the real world, so it cannot refer to Hell.  Anyway, if the burning referred to is in fact Hell, the fire-forever doctrine forbids anyone ever leaving, forbidding even God from plucking anyone out.  It is all too easy to formulate a doctrine or dogma, post a few proof texts, and not realize that you are proposing to dictate to God.

There is fire again in 5:6, and once again it is fire in the real world.  A few verses later (5:8) we read the implied promise:  "Seek him that maketh...the shadow of death into the morning."  Is this not a promise of God's coming salvation?  Note that no conditions are placed on it, just as the morning is for all who see it.

Fire again in 7:4, and the wording seems obscure, but this writer sees no reason to think it refers to Hellfire.

8:11-12  "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:  and they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."  People are still not finding it, while they read what they think are Bibles, but are paraphrases.  They are not finding it while sitting under the preaching of those who are constrained by doctrines and dogma which are contrary to God's Word.  Dear reader, my thesis is only a small part of a whole, for the basic message of God's Word is to believe only in Him, do what is right, and avoid evil & wickedness.  Most folks who stop and think will admit this, but men seem to corrupt all that they can, and corruption must be burned away from time to time.  In the fullness of time, God will burn it away entirely, but that's not Hellfire either.

Finally, we do see "hell" in 9:2, "Though they dig into hell...," but as ever it is footnoted as "Sheol."  Now since Hell is supposed to be a destination in the  afterlife, how are living men to dig their way into it?  Hoary church dogma places Hell at the center of the earth, but it's just simpler to think of hell/sheol/grave, and it is so much closer to the original meaning, and you can dig into it too.  Can you dig it?

     





Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

micah7:9

#224
November 24, 2015, 09:19:13 PM
" Can you dig it?" :laugh: :LH: :happyclap: :laughing7:
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