Heaven, Yes...Hell, No

[Tom]

I think the same goes for "the lake of fire" which is "the second death." I think the mortals in there will be literally dead, not metaphorically dead, and they will be literally brought back to life at the consummation of the eons. I think to believe somebody is not really dead after a person dies is to deny the resurrection. I believe Jesus really died and was really dead for three days before the power of the Father gave him life beyond death which we all will someday have. I think believing Jesus didn't really die is just a way to support the Trinity. I believe scripture.

"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

[Tom]

I don't think that means those condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" get off easy. I think what they will experience when they are judged before the great white throne will be their chastening.

[Tom]

I think God's judgments are always corrective not vindictive. That's why I think the judgment before the great white throne will be the correction for those who will be dead in "the lake of fire" "knowing nothing."

[Tom]

Despite the fact that I think some folks may speak of God's vengeance in the Hebrew scriptures, I don't believe God literally needs to seek revenge because it is he who is operating all. God created evil to humble us, and God created the Adversary to try us. But we will all be free from evil at the consummation of the eons because God is love, and God will all in all.

[Seth]

I think God's judgments are always corrective not vindictive. That's why I think the judgment before the great white throne will be the correction for those who will be dead in "the lake of fire" "knowing nothing."

Do you believe they will be corrected before being burned alive by fire? What does it mean that someone is corrected?

[Lazarus Short]

Thanks to all for your comments!  I would like to see posts, however, more focused on my book-in-progress, and how to make it better.  Here's Exodus:

Exodus, chapter 1
Lots of Hebrew male babies are killed, but there is no mention of their ultimate fate, not even to Limbo.

Chapter 2
Moses kills an Egyptian, with no mention of Hell for him, nor is Moses threatened with it for the deed.

Chapters 3 – 14
The firstborn of Egypt, and later the whole Egyptian army, are killed by God.  Again, it's just simple death.

Chapters 15 - 31
The Song of Moses is sung, without mention of Hell for the Egyptians.  The Amalekites are defeated, and there is no mention of Hell for them either, even though God speaks of blotting out any memory of them.  The Ten Commandments are given, without mention of Hell.  In fact, the whole Law given to Moses (in Exodus) specifies no punishment worse than death.

Chapter 32
The golden calf is made and worshipped.  God states that He will destroy all Israel for it, and raise up a new nation out of Moses.  Moses talks Him out of it, and Hell is not mentioned.  Yet, back at the camp, Moses commands the slaying of 3,000 men after saving the whole nation from destruction.  Later, Moses begs God to strike his name from God's Book, but God tells him that the nation, or parts of it, are struck from His Book instead.  The record here is silent on whether being struck from the Book means being sent to Hell.

Chapters 33 – 40
There is nothing of interest to our quest in these chapters.

[eaglesway]

Hey Tom, misread your post, saw soldiers (my eyes are not so great) but I get the drift of what you are saying.

Laz, I will respect your request and try to focus on the theme you set in your initiial post :o)

[Tom]

I think God's judgments are always corrective not vindictive. That's why I think the judgment before the great white throne will be the correction for those who will be dead in "the lake of fire" "knowing nothing."

Do you believe they will be corrected before being burned alive by fire? What does it mean that someone is corrected?

Yes, I believe the corrective judgment will happen before "the lake of fire," and many may even be rendered unconscious by sulfur dioxide before having their bodies cast into "the lake of fire." I think it will be a literal "lake of fire" composed of the same kind of burning sulfur possibly released from the bowels of the earth similar to how it probably happened with Sodom and Gomorrah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQEcqwrYxc&list=PL6NNBo_y_fjNBv0Ub0QFGiqdSvoxTUtOJ But I think either way their death will come quickly. So they won't be tormented for the eons of the eons like the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet. I've thought about that too, and I think their torment could simply be being trapped with all the dead souls that they caused to die because I don't think they can experience pain without bodies of flesh. But that's just a speculation. A parent can correct a young child with just a stern word, and I think the awesome presence of "the word of God" will correct unbelievers. Some folks cry for vengeance and say that's not enough, but I believe God's judgment is effective and righteous. http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil022.html Despite all the guessing about the nature of "Gehenna" and "the lake of fire," I don't believe they are "hell" that the original post refers to, and I don't believe the purpose of "hell" is correction or vengeance because I think it is simply the unseen state of dead souls due to the original meaning of the Old English word "hell" used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unperceived" or "unseen."

[Tom]

Thanks to all for your comments!  I would like to see posts, however, more focused on my book-in-progress, and how to make it better.  Here's Exodus:

Exodus, chapter 1
Lots of Hebrew male babies are killed, but there is no mention of their ultimate fate, not even to Limbo.

Chapter 2
Moses kills an Egyptian, with no mention of Hell for him, nor is Moses threatened with it for the deed.

Chapters 3 – 14
The firstborn of Egypt, and later the whole Egyptian army, are killed by God.  Again, it's just simple death.

Chapters 15 - 31
The Song of Moses is sung, without mention of Hell for the Egyptians.  The Amalekites are defeated, and there is no mention of Hell for them either, even though God speaks of blotting out any memory of them.  The Ten Commandments are given, without mention of Hell.  In fact, the whole Law given to Moses (in Exodus) specifies no punishment worse than death.

Chapter 32
The golden calf is made and worshipped.  God states that He will destroy all Israel for it, and raise up a new nation out of Moses.  Moses talks Him out of it, and Hell is not mentioned.  Yet, back at the camp, Moses commands the slaying of 3,000 men after saving the whole nation from destruction.  Later, Moses begs God to strike his name from God's Book, but God tells him that the nation, or parts of it, are struck from His Book instead.  The record here is silent on whether being struck from the Book means being sent to Hell.

Chapters 33 – 40
There is nothing of interest to our quest in these chapters.

I agree that scripture only says death is the result of sin, not torture in fire forever, and I don't believe in limbo because I think it is just bogus Roman Catholic Church theology that I read is not even considered legit anymore by the church.

[rosered]

Thanks to all for your comments!  I would like to see posts, however, more focused on my book-in-progress, and how to make it better.  Here's Exodus:

Exodus, chapter 1
Lots of Hebrew male babies are killed, but there is no mention of their ultimate fate, not even to Limbo.

Chapter 2
Moses kills an Egyptian, with no mention of Hell for him, nor is Moses threatened with it for the deed.

Chapters 3 – 14
The firstborn of Egypt, and later the whole Egyptian army, are killed by God.  Again, it's just simple death.

Chapters 15 - 31
The Song of Moses is sung, without mention of Hell for the Egyptians.  The Amalekites are defeated, and there is no mention of Hell for them either, even though God speaks of blotting out any memory of them.  The Ten Commandments are given, without mention of Hell.  In fact, the whole Law given to Moses (in Exodus) specifies no punishment worse than death.

Chapter 32
The golden calf is made and worshipped.  God states that He will destroy all Israel for it, and raise up a new nation out of Moses.  Moses talks Him out of it, and Hell is not mentioned.  Yet, back at the camp, Moses commands the slaying of 3,000 men after saving the whole nation from destruction.  Later, Moses begs God to strike his name from God's Book, but God tells him that the nation, or parts of it, are struck from His Book instead.  The record here is silent on whether being struck from the Book means being sent to Hell.

Chapters 33 – 34
There is nothing of interest to our quest in these chapters.

  Exactly Dennis !   
I dont think I can be of any help  so I will stay out of this  ,  I just know the dead  red sea    is symbolic of the watery graves of the seas of humanity     that was parted     

  Leviticus    and Numbers you die in faith or you   just die    one or the other

  its like out with the old   nature and ways contrarily    to the will of God  , its just   '' things  and apart of all things  ''  hell is the  grave  or unseen
  and into the new which is made in  the will of God

   Joshua 1   the  man Moses died     but his  symbolic    Law is still in effect   or natural forces  of the Law  , body/ government  of Moses that   the adversity  in Satan still   accuses      good and evil mix           no mention of hell or torment  and handed over the Joshua     same name meaning of Jesus      , this is why in  Hebrews its says if Joshua /Jesus would have spoken of another day they would have  received  rest in the Lord and not   scattered & wandering


God bless your    Book and  venture   :flowerred:

[micah7:9]

I believe we must remember who Jesus was speaking to. He did not speak these parables to everyone, He was speaking/teaching the disciples. And should we be His disciples He is speaking/teaching to us.
Mar 9:35  And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them,
Mat 5:1  And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
Mat 5:2  And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying
Mat 18:1  At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
  I believe this mentioning of gehenna, is for His disciples/us, that if my hand offend.....it must be cast in to the spiritual
fire-judgment=damnation[decision]gehenna and destroyed.
Joh 6:63  the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
:2c: :dsunny:

[rosered]

I believe we must remember who Jesus was speaking to. He did not speak these parables to everyone, He was speaking/teaching the disciples. And should we be His disciples He is speaking/teaching to us.
Mar 9:35  And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them,
Mat 5:1  And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
Mat 5:2  And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying
Mat 18:1  At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
  I believe this mentioning of gehenna, is for His disciples/us, that if my hand offend.....it must be cast in to the spiritual
fire-judgment=damnation[decision]gehenna and destroyed.
Joh 6:63  the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
:2c: :dsunny:

  you are sooooooooo right Bro M ,
  it was not till the fullness of time   when   God  appeared   in the form of  a   baby   as  the   man child   called Jesus
and      Changed the whole    course of nature and     existence as we know it

   the  called out of the world      for this  ''start ''    come after His own resurrection  and the firstfruits of the    regenerated   Spirit of holiness  began to move  in and on the earth   , new beginnings  for sure,   To  be fruitful [Spiritually ]     and  multiply   this one of a kind , Son of God    to many sons of God though Jesus Christ  or the HOLY ONE  and fill the earth    as it is in Heaven     as He opened  Heaven for all      to enter that will come    to Him     at the Cross   , From that time  till   He  decides     to   make an end  of all  enemies  of His cross  and be all in all   and presented to God         

:flowerred:

[eaglesway]

I think God's judgments are always corrective not vindictive. That's why I think the judgment before the great white throne will be the correction for those who will be dead in "the lake of fire" "knowing nothing."

Do you believe they will be corrected before being burned alive by fire? What does it mean that someone is corrected?

Yes, I believe the corrective judgment will happen before "the lake of fire," and many may even be rendered unconscious by sulfur dioxide before having their bodies cast into "the lake of fire." I think it will be a literal "lake of fire" composed of the same kind of burning sulfur possibly released from the bowels of the earth similar to how it probably happened with Sodom and Gomorrah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQEcqwrYxc&list=PL6NNBo_y_fjNBv0Ub0QFGiqdSvoxTUtOJ But I think either way their death will come quickly. So they won't be tormented for the eons of the eons like the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet. I've thought about that too, and I think their torment could simply be being trapped with all the dead souls that they caused to die because I don't think they can experience pain without bodies of flesh. But that's just a speculation. A parent can correct a young child with just a stern word, and I think the awesome presence of "the word of God" will correct unbelievers. Some folks cry for vengeance and say that's not enough, but I believe God's judgment is effective and righteous. http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil022.html Despite all the guessing about the nature of "Gehenna" and "the lake of fire," I don't believe they are "hell" that the original post refers to, and I don't believe the purpose of "hell" is correction or vengeance because I think it is simply the unseen state of dead souls due to the original meaning of the Old English word "hell" used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unperceived" or "unseen."

"hell" is most often a translation of Sheol(via Hades) - altho the KJV translated sheol AND gehenna the same- hell.

It seems incorrect to me that the judgment happens before the lake of fire, since as it is written, the dead are raised, they stand before the Great White Throne and they are judged out of "the books" and then those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are thrown into the LOF.

Rv 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

[Tom]

The King James Version also translates what should be "Tartarus" as "hell," which is only used once in 2 Peter 2:4 for the "gloomy caverns" where "sinning messengers" are "kept for chastening judging." (see the attachment)

Brother, even though you say you disagree with the judgment being "before the lake of fire," you go on to say, "they are judged out of "the books" and then those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are thrown into the LOF." That is the same thing I'm saying. So why do you say, "It seems incorrect to me that the judgment happens before the lake of fire?"

[attachment deleted by admin]

[dajomaco]

Thanks to all for your comments!  I would like to see posts, however, more focused on my book-in-progress, and how to make it better.  Here's Exodus:

Exodus, chapter 1
Lots of Hebrew male babies are killed, but there is no mention of their ultimate fate, not even to Limbo.

Chapter 2
Moses kills an Egyptian, with no mention of Hell for him, nor is Moses threatened with it for the deed.

Chapters 3 – 14
The firstborn of Egypt, and later the whole Egyptian army, are killed by God.  Again, it's just simple death.

Chapters 15 - 31
The Song of Moses is sung, without mention of Hell for the Egyptians.  The Amalekites are defeated, and there is no mention of Hell for them either, even though God speaks of blotting out any memory of them.  The Ten Commandments are given, without mention of Hell.  In fact, the whole Law given to Moses (in Exodus) specifies no punishment worse than death.

Chapter 32
The golden calf is made and worshipped.  God states that He will destroy all Israel for it, and raise up a new nation out of Moses.  Moses talks Him out of it, and Hell is not mentioned.  Yet, back at the camp, Moses commands the slaying of 3,000 men after saving the whole nation from destruction.  Later, Moses begs God to strike his name from God's Book, but God tells him that the nation, or parts of it, are struck from His Book instead.  The record here is silent on whether being struck from the Book means being sent to Hell.

Chapters 33 – 40 There is nothing of interest to our quest in these chapters.


quote]



In Chapter 33 God wants to get his point across about punishing the guilty he says

He will punish not only the guilty people, but also their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, and their great-great-grandchildren."

But still no mention of hell
[/

[micah7:9]

Daj, that's just about what William Munny said in the "Unforgiven" when his friend was killed.  :Peace2: :rolllol:

"also their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, and their great-great-grandchildren."

[Lazarus Short]

Daj, that's just about what William Munny said in the "Unforgiven" when his friend was killed.  :Peace2: :rolllol:

"also their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, and their great-great-grandchildren."

Is that not just God's way of pointing out the multigenerational effects of sin?  Of course, from His point of view, He set things up to be so, so He takes responsibility for it.  He surely does not deliberately smite four or five generations, all the while watching for any other sins He can smite all over for...on and on. :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

[Lazarus Short]

In Chapter 33 God wants to get his point across about punishing the guilty he says

He will punish not only the guilty people, but also their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, and their great-great-grandchildren."

But still no mention of hell

Nice catch, thanks!

[micah7:9]

Daj, that's just about what William Munny said in the "Unforgiven" when his friend was killed.  :Peace2: :rolllol:

"also their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, and their great-great-grandchildren."

Is that not just God's way of pointing out the multigenerational effects of sin?  Of course, from His point of view, He set things up to be so, so He takes responsibility for it.  He surely does not deliberately smite four or five generations, all the while watching for any other sins He can smite all over for...on and on. :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

I apologize....it was meant as a bit of humor. :sigh:

[micah7:9]

In Chapter 33 God wants to get his point across about punishing the guilty he says

He will punish not only the guilty people, but also their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, and their great-great-grandchildren."

But still no mention of hell

Nice catch, thanks!
[/quote

Not a real catch, just a literal read of the Bible and what it reads.

[eaglesway]

The King James Version also translates what should be "Tartarus" as "hell," which is only used once in 2 Peter 2:4 for the "gloomy caverns" where "sinning messengers" are "kept for chastening judging." (see the attachment)

Brother, even though you say you disagree with the judgment being "before the lake of fire," you go on to say, "they are judged out of "the books" and then those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are thrown into the LOF." That is the same thing I'm saying. So why do you say, "It seems incorrect to me that the judgment happens before the lake of fire?"

We may be having a quibble due to misunderstanding each other. This is how I see it.

At the 2nd resurrection, there is the Great White Throne. That is where the "books" are opened(Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel). Then there is the Lake of Fire, for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book. That is their judgment/correction.

They exit the LOF into the ALL IN ALL.

[gregoryfl]

The King James Version also translates what should be "Tartarus" as "hell," which is only used once in 2 Peter 2:4 for the "gloomy caverns" where "sinning messengers" are "kept for chastening judging." (see the attachment)

As another witness, the Aramaic uses the term 'Tahhtayata' meaning 'the deep places'. This Aramaic word has nothing to do with the mythical Greek 'Tartarus'. It is referring to their lowered state, a state of darkness, which chains them (blinds them) from the high places they once inhabited, until the day they are judged.

[eaglesway]

Tartarus, the abyss, the pit.

As I see it, Another category of the dead- a special chamber for those who once had the light in sufficient measure to be priests/servants/messengers of "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ"- and returned to "elementary principles", or legalism, or immorality - like dogs to vomit.

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

[Tom]

The King James Version also translates what should be "Tartarus" as "hell," which is only used once in 2 Peter 2:4 for the "gloomy caverns" where "sinning messengers" are "kept for chastening judging." (see the attachment)

Brother, even though you say you disagree with the judgment being "before the lake of fire," you go on to say, "they are judged out of "the books" and then those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are thrown into the LOF." That is the same thing I'm saying. So why do you say, "It seems incorrect to me that the judgment happens before the lake of fire?"

We may be having a quibble due to misunderstanding each other. This is how I see it.

At the 2nd resurrection, there is the Great White Throne. That is where the "books" are opened(Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel). Then there is the Lake of Fire, for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book. That is their judgment/correction.

They exit the LOF into the ALL IN ALL.

I understand what you're saying, but I think dead souls know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). That's why I think unbelievers will be judged before the great white throne and condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire." Then they will be vivified when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26) at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28). We have a difference of opinion about the function of "the lake of fire." You seem to think somehow the dead in it will be corrected, but I think they will have been corrected before they are cast into it. I think only the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be alive to be tormented in "the lake of fire" because they are supernatural creatures not subject to death (Revelation 20:10). I don't think there is a reason to quibble or squabble about the "judgment/correction" though. I think we'll see what happens when the time comes. 

[Tom]

Tartarus, the abyss, the pit.

As I see it, Another category of the dead- a special chamber for those who once had the light in sufficient measure to be priests/servants/messengers of "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ"- and returned to "elementary principles", or legalism, or immorality - like dogs to vomit.

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

I think the "sinning messengers" in Tartarus are spirits not dead souls (2 Peter 2:4).