Are Universalists, Trinitarians?

[micah7:9]

Has anyone noticed that the trinity doctrine is but a "theory?"

[dajomaco]

When you have no fear of getting it wrong you can't be controlled .
I am free to find the truth the wrong way.
Jesus is the truth.

At that time, if someone says to you, 'Look! Here's the Messiah!' or, 'There he is!' don't believe him. 24 For there will appear false Messiahs and false prophets performing great miracles — amazing things! — so as to fool even the chosen, if possible.

[Tom]

The Roman Empire always controlled the common people through religion. It just switched from one religion to another, the second being super-imposed over the first. Empires are always built upon religion. How else to justify the wholesale slaughter of other human beings? Most societies throughout the ages have been manipulated by religion. Even the Soviet Empire was built on religion, the religion of Communism. Secular Humanism is the new religion of our day. If we do not sense the quickly rising tide of "doctrines" that you better not contradict on pain of prison or death (speaking against homosexuality for instance).

The new god who does not judge or discern the wickedness and arrogance of men has many names, shapeshifting into  anything from a pan-theistic  glob of goo that tis as corrosive and all-consuming as The Blob, or a narrow and horrific judge like Allah, or an amorphous connection between all humanity(excluding Christ) or a Jesus in name only bearing none of the attributes of the divine nature and requiring no sacrifice but that of the law and the carved out idols of systematic theology and doctrines of devils.

Since the beginning there have only been a few, here and there, seeking to know Him as He is, the I AM, YHWH, the one true invisible God and His Messiah, the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation of His image.

Nevertheless, His mercy reigns over the sons of men :o)

22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.  The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;  nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;  and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Amen, brother, but you know you're dating yourself with "The Blob" though, right?

[eaglesway]

LOL yup :o)

[CST]

Wow, well this is curious. Usually when websites have FAQs they are places where people who want information come to get definitive answers on of the website actually stands for. It's more than a little unusual. But it's also very fair and conducive to discussion.

Anyway, I once made the mistake of playing Devil's Advocate for 'Christian's' who reject the Godhead and deny the divinity of Jesus because I happened to have read about the fact that there are some that do a few days before and I thought it fair to represent their views at the time. I wasn't pertinent and I wish I had because I consider it blasphemous so I want to try to correct that error by defending the Trinity to best of my limited ability now.

So if you want to build a case for the doctrine of the Trinity where is the best place to start? Well, to me, it's the Gospel according to John which opens:

John 1:1-3, 14

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God.

He was in the beginning with God;

All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

Now I was of the impression that we're meant to understand that the Word in flesh is Jesus, that's seems to me a pretty reasonable reading and it clearly says that the Word is God. Therefore, you would imagine, it seems to clearly say Jesus is God.

It also says, as if more clarification were needed:

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

The relationship between God and Jesus as being indistinguishable is developed very consistently in St John's Gospel. Though in the interests of disclosure there appear to be recently discovered manuscripts of John 1:18 in which it's rather more clear about the fact that Jesus is God than others. Several modern translations tend to be a blend of both sentiments and don't really, necessarily accurately represent either. Which I consider unhelpful.

So, Jesus is God, yet not God given how He talks about the Father and his relationship to Him throughout John's Gospel. What about the Holy Spirit. Well, in the big theological announcement in John 14 where Jesus declares,  "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me. If you had known me you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him." (John 14:6-7) he also speaks of the Holy Spirit. If the above isn't convincing that Jesus is God when he seems to say that he is you're not likely to accept the next argument either but if you do than you should also accept that when Jesus says, "And I will pray to the Father and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him or knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)

Now, Jesus has just declared He is God, declared that to know Him is to know God and that He is the truth. So, logically, the Spirit of truth is, somehow his Spirit, yes, which can also be identified with God who the world does know but the disciples do we are taught. "But the counselor, the Holy Spirit who the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (John 14:26)

So, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, who is the Spirit of Jesus, who is God, yes? Well it seems to follow. The whole passage seems to unfold to teach that these beings are all God and God wants express Himself to us this way for His own purposes.

However, I agree with EW that this does not show that all parts of the Trinity are co-eternal, although John 1 certainly suggests they must be, it does not show they are co-equal, which the language of Jesus in how He talks about the Father in relation to Him would seem to contradict, and I can't say whether it shows they're co-substantial because I have no idea what that's supposed to mean although Jesus seems to imply in this chance they have some sort of similar substance.

It's pretty clear that the Trinity is not simply a concept invented by the church, it has clear Biblical support it's determining the genuine level of distinction, whatever that my be between the three persons of the Godhead that is tricky.

There is also a rather strange question asked in the thread "where in the scripture does it say the Father is a person?" Where how about everywhere. You don't need to say that your natural mother, father, sister, brother is a person to make it true. "Let us make man in our image and after our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26).

The entire concept of our faith proceeds on the presumption that God is a person, of sorts, attempting to restore a lost relationship with His children. The Bible doesn't need to specifically identify each member of the Godhead as a person for it to be true. Either God is a person or He isn't and the whole narrative of the Bible says He is.

But there's one other question EW asked, one thing more that he believed needed explaining; the Shema:

"Hear, O Isreal, YHWH our God: YHWH is one! (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Your point being. This isn't really the most natural way of saying YHWH is the only God although sometimes it can be translated that way, the word "one" here does mean "one" but it also appears in expressions like "one flesh" when clearly two fleshes are involved but put into a single union yet, obviously, they remain to some degree separate fleshes. So the Shema doesn't necessarily have the weight in might initially seem to.

But wait! That's not actually the Shema, that's only half the Shema. The full Shema reads:

Hear, O Isreal, YHWH our God: YHWH is one! And you shall love YWHW your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)

See that, God demands complete threefold love from His people here and instructs them to give it all to Him. Is it possible that this is to, in some sense, justly reflect the love God gives us from His threefold being?

Just a weak theory of mine.

[rosered]

Bless your heart CST  ,
Did you by chance check the link EW  shared on page 2 , 

   The link has 34 pages and been   a deep and wide discussion,
  and  believe everyone is  resting  in  hope ,   faith , hope and Love 

CST said ,

Hear, O Isreal, YHWH our God: YHWH is one! And you shall love YWHW your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)

See that, God demands complete threefold love from His people here and instructs them to give it all to Him. Is it possible that this is to, in some sense, justly reflect the love God gives us from His threefold being?

Just a weak theory of mine.

God gives us a new heart  with the law of love working  though them laws  and the  soul   is a being  , life   we loose ours  for His Life    and  for His sake , and He is our strength    .   

  God has got it all covered ,  we just need to   learn  to  comply  fully .

[CST]

I checked it, I scanned it. As far as I could see EW was still making his claims about the Shema that were unresolved in the thread so far as I could tell. It could be that someone has responded elsewhere but so far I've only opened up two posting sections for myself. Ideally I'd wait until I'd read every thread so I know what has and hasn't been said but unfortunately if I did that I'd never get anything posted.

I have to decide what I do respond top in each of the threads I've opened and what I leave for later and this board is called FAQs so it seems like a kind of go to place that newbies might come for information about aspects of our belief. I felt it quite important that there's some sort of resolution on our position on what I'm unclear on except that it's likely very important and, in some sense true that there is some sort of Trinity even if it's just some sort of language form.

I'll talk more about my personal thought later if there's time and interest, the above are my thoughts on what the Bible seems to say.

[GodIsLove]

...this board is called FAQs so it seems like a kind of go to place that newbies might come for information about aspects of our belief. I felt it quite important that there's some sort of resolution on our position...

There are countless things that "we" don't have a resolved position on, both as Christians and as Universalists. Free will, the nature of Satan, God's role in evil, the Trinity, age and type of baptism, prophecy, interpretation of scriptures like Revelation, whether some stories are historically true or metaphorical, the age of the earth, how all will be reconciled, the purpose of the LOF and who will be in it...the list goes on.

I think, in my humble opinion, God spelled out a few things clearly and the rest is not for us to understand 100% YET and that is okay.

There are thousands of Christian denominations that think they have it all right.  There are other non Christian religions as well. The likelihood is that NONE are 100% right to show that only God is perfect and even in our attempts to follow Him we falter and it is Him who helps us back up and shows us the Way.

I am ok not knowing the true nature of the Trinity. I lean toward a certain view but I could and likely am wrong.

Just my  :2c:

One biggie that we can agree on:
Love God and love others.
His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Jesus points to the father and draws all men to Him.
The Holy Spirit guides us.

The actual nature of it all is a mystery and scriptural support for a variety of different beliefs exists because they pick and choose verses to fit their belief.

[CST]

Yeah, although this this page has run for four pages doing that now which I feel causes more confusion than it solves in a section called FAQs.

I also feel saying we're satisfied not knowing (though I concede I'm not the most clear on this) leans a little too closely to the "Universalism says God will save everyone, so why do we need to make serious decisions on anything?" position too many opponents of UR would happily use to try and undermine our argument?

[marie glen]

I avoided this thread for a couple of days :laughing7: while it was coming up on the list..

..I don't want to get into trouble.. (I'm mostly kidding of course.. sort of..)

I used to be a little confused about this.. until I realized there are two.. The Father and the Son.. But I also believe they are one.. just not, the same.. as in one individual.. and I feel scripture suggests this very strongly. That they are two.

But I also think they are one.. (all this just my :2c: of course) in the sense that Jesus is the only straight out from Him one. I believe, and usually duck if I say this, that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, meaning , in the beginning God.. undifferentiated.. the Father.. Then there was the Father and the Son.. Only Begotten - "this day have I revealed Thee" (ps.2) - only straight out from Him One.. So close as to share substance and essence, and to both administer the Holy Spirit, which I think of as the Presence of God (with us..)

Jesus prayed we would be one as they are one.. This topic like a few others Christianity has, I sometimes think the 'sides' just don't really hear what the other 'side' is saying.. Or like with a lot of things, the truth lies closest somewhere in the middle of the two poles.. :dontknow: :2c:

[GodIsLove]

I avoided this thread for a couple of days :laughing7: while it was coming up on the list..

..I don't want to get into trouble.. (I'm mostly kidding of course.. sort of..)

I used to be a little confused about this.. until I realized there are two.. The Father and the Son.. But I also believe they are one.. just not, the same.. as in one individual.. and I feel scripture suggests this very strongly. That they are two.

But I also think they are one.. (all this just my :2c: of course) in the sense that Jesus is the only straight out from Him one. I believe, and usually duck if I say this, that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, meaning , in the beginning God.. undifferentiated.. the Father.. Then there was the Father and the Son.. Only Begotten - "this day have I revealed Thee" (ps.2) - only straight out from Him One.. So close as to share substance and essence, and to both administer the Holy Spirit, which I think of as the Presence of God (with us..)

Jesus prayed we would be one as they are one.. This topic like a few others Christianity has, I sometimes think the 'sides' just don't really hear what the other 'side' is saying.. Or like with a lot of things, the truth lies closest somewhere in the middle of the two poles.. :dontknow: :2c:

This is somewhat what I believe, nicely put  :thumbsup:

[rosered]

I avoided this thread for a couple of days :laughing7: while it was coming up on the list..

..I don't want to get into trouble.. (I'm mostly kidding of course.. sort of..)

I used to be a little confused about this.. until I realized there are two.. The Father and the Son.. But I also believe they are one.. just not, the same.. as in one individual.. and I feel scripture suggests this very strongly. That they are two.

But I also think they are one.. (all this just my :2c: of course) in the sense that Jesus is the only straight out from Him one. I believe, and usually duck if I say this, that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, meaning , in the beginning God.. undifferentiated.. the Father.. Then there was the Father and the Son.. Only Begotten - "this day have I revealed Thee" (ps.2) - only straight out from Him One.. So close as to share substance and essence, and to both administer the Holy Spirit, which I think of as the Presence of God (with us..)

Jesus prayed we would be one as they are one.. This topic like a few others Christianity has, I sometimes think the 'sides' just don't really hear what the other 'side' is saying.. Or like with a lot of things, the truth lies closest somewhere in the middle of the two poles.. :dontknow: :2c:

This is somewhat what I believe, nicely put  :thumbsup:

I agree well said sista Marie!    I too only  thing different   for me is  the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of  truth [  GOD  the FATHER  ] & word of Truth  all  in  [Jesus Christ ]  and all that is gathered up with Them     seven eyes being the  seven Spirits  of God  angels   cloud of witnesses  etc .    as ONE

    The Lord says the true worshipper  shall worship Him in Spirit and truth     and the God be all in all  in the end what come out  will also return to Him and not be void or empty  BUT FULL  ,   HE IS THE LIVING GOD ....     in Christ is still the Lord of   the dead and the living ..   That all  death ends in  Christ   and as in the beginning  was all creation  made  by HIS WORD going forth / JESUS CHRIST   so shall the end be  In adam all die and in Christ shall be made alive .

All things in Christ and Christ is Gods and God be all in all    Col  1

16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything....



1Cor 15 ;28 The Order of Resurrection
...27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
  Eph  4 ;6    Unity in the Body
...5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift....

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 12:6
There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

For  they are all so wonderful    to  consider  and think upon   

[Dandelion]

I have stated before on this Forum, I am a trinitarian. I believe that God the Father, Jesus, His Son, and the Holy Spirit, are all united under one God, with unique rolls, just as we are all united in the body of Christ, His Church ( in a broad sense ) with individual gifts. It is not the equality of roles or a hierarchy that unites us, in the Body of Christ, or the persons in one God, or whatever you care to call the union, but rather the love, the intertwining of commitment and purpose, and the goal of oneness and Salvation for all of mankind. It is the RELATIONSHIP that bonds, I believe, and the ability to know each other and be united by bonds that are far deeper than we are able to really have or understand on earth. And, in a parallel way, it is the same for God. But God, of course, being omnipotent, knows exactly how this interplay between the Father, Son and Spirit occurs.

That being said, however, I don't believe we are able to fathom the complex interplay of the Body of Christ or of our God, in this realm. One day, we will understand, and the veil will be lifted, but for now, we will have to each have our vision of God, and aim to seek the truth, to the best of our ability......as limited as that is, I believe.

So, hash it out, as we will and do......it is interesting to know different perspectives, and look at it from other's viewpoints, but, ultimately, I believe we will have to wait for Heaven, to ever truly come close to understanding this......and then we will look at one another, and smile, and say, "But, of course.....how did we not see this while on earth?" and go on from there. IMO.   

:2c:

D.                    :girlheart:

[Ross]

I.M.O seems to come to one observation.
We are made in their image. Gen 1;26
My dad was the one from whom I sprouted.
When we are one we are in perfect agreement about everything.
Two individuals as one.
Our heavenly Father is greater than our dads of this age.
Christ said "not my will but Yours".
God said, " this is My beloved Son."


An army becomes one when they are working together for a common objective. Many people, but one army.
A business runs most efficiently when everyone is in agreement about procedure, ethics, rules, etc. ergo as one.
A church as one is a powerful place.
Suggesting the term " As One" means total unity, agreement in every regard.

[rosered]

   What I find  beautiful    is that by scripture we know    CHRIST DIED FOR ALL MANKIND !  not just a chosen few .

  and the WORD OF LIFE proves to us ,    Christ is  dead in them or Alive in them , but CHRIST IS THERE  to be lifted up or has been ''lifted up ''  in you NOW   !! 
  Being the Spirit  and Word of truth        , this simple and  complex   truth .
  But can  we believe  it  with all our  mind and heart and strength !  faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is blowing /saying   upon   all flesh as the miracle of  birth , born  again  comes into  being !



Acts 17   23 Now as I was going along and carefully looking at your objects of worship,
I came to an altar with this inscription: 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you already worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.


24 The God who created the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;[You are that temple of the living God ]


25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, because it is He who gives to all [people] life and breath and all things.


26 And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands and territories.


27 This was so that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grasp for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.



28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being], as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'



29 So then, being God's children, we should not think that the Divine Nature (deity) is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination or skill of man.


30 Therefore God overlooked and disregarded the former ages of ignorance; but now He commands all people everywhere to repent [that is, to change their old way of thinking, to regret their past sins, and to seek God's purpose for their lives]


, 31 because He has set a day when He will judge the inhabited world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed and destined for that task,

and He has provided credible proof to everyone by raising Him from the dead."

We are now at this point to call no man common , unholy  or unclean  CHRIST IS IN THERE  DEAD OR ALIVE , CHRIST IS THERE  ...



aActs  10   27As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled.

28And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him;


and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.

It is how we treat one another is exactly how we treat the Lord JESUS CHRIST and to LIFT HIM UP   to draw  all men unto Him ...
Christ in you the hope of glory to GOD that be all in all   !!

[CST]

I avoided this thread for a couple of days :laughing7: while it was coming up on the list..

..I don't want to get into trouble.. (I'm mostly kidding of course.. sort of..)

I used to be a little confused about this.. until I realized there are two.. The Father and the Son.. But I also believe they are one.. just not, the same.. as in one individual.. and I feel scripture suggests this very strongly. That they are two.

But I also think they are one.. (all this just my :2c: of course) in the sense that Jesus is the only straight out from Him one. I believe, and usually duck if I say this, that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, meaning , in the beginning God.. undifferentiated.. the Father.. Then there was the Father and the Son.. Only Begotten - "this day have I revealed Thee" (ps.2) - only straight out from Him One.. So close as to share substance and essence, and to both administer the Holy Spirit, which I think of as the Presence of God (with us..)

Jesus prayed we would be one as they are one.. This topic like a few others Christianity has, I sometimes think the 'sides' just don't really hear what the other 'side' is saying.. Or like with a lot of things, the truth lies closest somewhere in the middle of the two poles.. :dontknow: :2c:

:laugh: Ah, Marie. You seem incredibly unsure and confused about this. Maybe because, like me, you struggle to get you logic loving mind around the concept of a God who is only God but is also comprised of three... something. Modes or persons or facets or, I don't know. Not parts though, God can't be broken down into parts. God cannot be divided.

Why do you, kind of think you might get into trouble for stating you view? Do you think you might get into trouble with other forum members, other church members, with God?

In more general term I like the direction the thread has suddenly taken. It's turned into this really optimistic thread full of nice, positive comments about unity. I like it.  :dsunny: I like many of the views expressed too although I don't think it's possible to agree with all of them.

I'll try and post my own tentative view of the Trinity, or at least some of it. As soon as I find more time.

[Dandelion]

If anyone has time, and is so inclined, I think this very insightful.

Not saying anyone needs to agree with it....or me......but, I definitely think it is worth a listen.

https://youtu.be/qPVf-exCgEo

C.S. Lewis, Beyond Personality, from Mere Christianity.


By one of my favorite theologians, C.S.Lewis.   

I will warn you, it is very long, but you can listen in parts if you like, of course.

:2c:

D.

[CST]

I read Mere Christianity right up until Lewis' treatise of the Lord's Prayer and then fast went off him.

[Dandelion]

I don't remember that, CST.

No one has it all right......no one I met yet, anyway.     :JCThink:

C.S. Is not a Christian Universalist, but I do think he is able to discern and
explain many spiritual concepts well. I started reading him when I was 21......a long time ago.
I realize many of my thoughts on faith come from him.

But we each need to take our own journeys.

And find our own mentors and 'wise counsel'.

Blessings on your journey!

D.

[marie glen]

I avoided this thread for a couple of days :laughing7: while it was coming up on the list..

..I don't want to get into trouble.. (I'm mostly kidding of course.. sort of..)


Jesus prayed we would be one as they are one.. This topic like a few others Christianity has, I sometimes think the 'sides' just don't really hear what the other 'side' is saying.. Or like with a lot of things, the truth lies closest somewhere in the middle of the two poles.. :dontknow: :2c:

:laugh:
Why do you, kind of think you might get into trouble for stating you view? Do you think you might get into trouble with other forum members, other church members, with God?

Not likely "in trouble" here, on this forum.. but this is one of the most 'volatile' of Christian topics! I'm not really sure why.. :dontknow: If i remember right, I believe they even had a war about this early on.. they forgot to love their 'enemies', er, brethren..

It was confusing, to me, about trinity for a while... when praying! I didn't know if I should address my prayers to the Father (like it seemed to me Jesus said to do) or to the Lord Jesus, which at the time felt the more natural and comfortable..  And even though I felt I had 'met' God before learning about Jesus.. (they occurred closely together, but not quite). I don't remember how the clouds cleared but somehow I began to realize, or that is sense and feel the two.. our heavenly Father, and Jesus His Son.. So though I believe they are 'one' I do not believe the Son is the Father.. Islam accuses us of having two 'gods' (or three), but I think there is One and if that One wants to have a Son - only straight out from Him One - to sit at His right hand, who are we to question Him about it! (To make the issue all that more confusing?  :laughing7: ) ...So I guess actually, I do like talking about this issue! But if in the wrong place at the wrong time.. look out! incoming! (bombs away! :laughing7: )

[eaglesway]

No bombs :) Just a reminder that this subject is so complex and unfortunately- fraught with intense feelings that often cause division, we have opened it once or twice for discussion and those threads are available.

Every possible position is presented on those threads and are open to read, but Tenmaker is established to celebrate and share the victorious gospel, not to rehash the doctrinal divisions of a thousand years and 10,000 doctrines and denominations  :laugh:

This is one of them. Better to go there and read the various views than to have the whole discussion again here


http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/25/

[rosered]

  Thanks John EW ,  for sharing that again.

  LOOKING  at this  yesterday  , and saw a clue   to whom the HOLY SPIRIT is Father and Son and those with Him /Them as ONE  in gathering LIVING  SPIRIT& WORD  OF TRUTH

   John 7 37 Now on the last and most important day of the feast, Jesus stood and called out [in a loud voice], "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink! 38 He who believes in Me [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Me], as the Scripture has said, 'From his innermost being will flow continually rivers of living water.'" 39 But He was speaking of the [Holy] Spirit, whom those who believed in Him [as Savior] were to receive afterward. The Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).

Division of People over Jesus
40 Listening to these words, some of the people said, "This is certainly the Prophet!" 41 Others said, "This is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed)!" But others said, "Surely the Christ is not going to come out of Galilee, is He? 42 Does the Scripture not say that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David lived?" 43 So the crowd was divided because of Him. 44 Some of them wanted to arrest Him, but no one laid hands on Him.

  handled the word of Life 1   John 1

[I am writing about] what existed from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life [the One who existed even before the beginning of the world, Christ]—

2 and the Life [an aspect of His being] was manifested, and we have seen [it as eyewitnesses] and testify and declare to you [the Life], the eternal Life who was [already existing] with the Father and was [actually] made visible to us [His followers]—

3 what we have seen and heard we also proclaim to you, so that you too may have fellowship [as partners] with us. And indeed our fellowship [which is a distinguishing mark of born-again believers] is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

4 We are writing these things to you so that our joy [in seeing you included] may be made complete [by having you share in the joy of salvation].

God Is Light
5 This is the message [of God's promised revelation] which we have heard from Him and now announce to you, that God is Light [He is holy, His message is truthful, He is perfect in righteousness], and in Him there is no darkness at all [no sin, no wickedness, no imperfection].

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness [of sin], we lie and do not practice the truth;

7 but if we [really] walk in the Light [that is, live each and every day in conformity with the precepts of God], as He Himself is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another [He with us, and we with Him], and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin [by erasing the stain of sin, keeping us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].

8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude ourselves and the truth is not in us. [His word does not live in our hearts.]

9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just [true to His own nature and promises], and will forgive our sins and cleanse us continually from all unrighteousness [our wrongdoing, everything not in conformity with His will and purpose].

10 If we say that we have not sinned [refusing to admit acts of sin], we make Him [out to be] a liar [by contradicting Him] and His word is not in us.

BLESSED IS HE WHOM IS NOT OFFENDED  BECAUSE OF ME [WORD OF GOD  ] NAMED JESUS CHRIST    John 12
JESUS NEVER SPOKE A WORD  OF HIS  OWN For

I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.
 

[CST]

I don't remember that, CST.

No one has it all right......no one I met yet, anyway.     :JCThink:

C.S. Is not a Christian Universalist, but I do think he is able to discern and
explain many spiritual concepts well. I started reading him when I was 21......a long time ago.
I realize many of my thoughts on faith come from him.

But we each need to take our own journeys.

And find our own mentors and 'wise counsel'.

Blessings on your journey!

D.

Yeah, he talked about us as 'little Jesuses" (I'm not sure how he spelt it) which I felt both reduced Jesus and elevated us improperly because Jesus is God and we are not. But I think it was just that last straw sort thing. There were also other, I'm sure, that were making me dubious of his theology i just can't remember what they all were.

I avoided this thread for a couple of days :laughing7: while it was coming up on the list..

..I don't want to get into trouble.. (I'm mostly kidding of course.. sort of..)


Jesus prayed we would be one as they are one.. This topic like a few others Christianity has, I sometimes think the 'sides' just don't really hear what the other 'side' is saying.. Or like with a lot of things, the truth lies closest somewhere in the middle of the two poles.. :dontknow: :2c:

:laugh:
Why do you, kind of think you might get into trouble for stating you view? Do you think you might get into trouble with other forum members, other church members, with God?

Not likely "in trouble" here, on this forum.. but this is one of the most 'volatile' of Christian topics! I'm not really sure why.. :dontknow: If i remember right, I believe they even had a war about this early on.. they forgot to love their 'enemies', er, brethren..

It was confusing, to me, about trinity for a while... when praying! I didn't know if I should address my prayers to the Father (like it seemed to me Jesus said to do) or to the Lord Jesus, which at the time felt the more natural and comfortable..  And even though I felt I had 'met' God before learning about Jesus.. (they occurred closely together, but not quite). I don't remember how the clouds cleared but somehow I began to realize, or that is sense and feel the two.. our heavenly Father, and Jesus His Son.. So though I believe they are 'one' I do not believe the Son is the Father.. Islam accuses us of having two 'gods' (or three), but I think there is One and if that One wants to have a Son - only straight out from Him One - to sit at His right hand, who are we to question Him about it! (To make the issue all that more confusing?  :laughing7: ) ...So I guess actually, I do like talking about this issue! But if in the wrong place at the wrong time.. look out! incoming! (bombs away! :laughing7: )

I'm pretty sure they had a war about every contentious topic. As I recall the primary cause of the schism between Eastern and Western church was whether or not the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son, or the Father only. That's an involved argument.

I understand your problem about praying at the moment I often pray to both successively but I concede I'm not really sure that I know what I'm doing.

I don't think the Trinity is about God "wanting" to have a Son. He may well do but I think the Son exists regardless of any desire.

No bombs :) Just a reminder that this subject is so complex and unfortunately- fraught with intense feelings that often cause division, we have opened it once or twice for discussion and those threads are available.

Every possible position is presented on those threads and are open to read, but Tenmaker is established to celebrate and share the victorious gospel, not to rehash the doctrinal divisions of a thousand years and 10,000 doctrines and denominations  :laugh:

This is one of them. Better to go there and read the various views than to have the whole discussion again here


http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/25/

Fine, even though I think this is a more go to board for people who want to know about what we think about the Trinity I will abstain from writing more of my feelings on it here except in response to posters I am responding to and wait until I get to one of those other ones. Perhaps, not the one you keep direction us to though. That seems to be a breakaway from another topic and looks, to me, like a mess.

  Thanks John EW ,  for sharing that again.

  LOOKING  at this  yesterday  , and saw a clue   to whom the HOLY SPIRIT is Father and Son and those with Him /Them as ONE  in gathering LIVING  SPIRIT& WORD  OF TRUTH

   John 7 37 Now on the last and most important day of the feast, Jesus stood and called out [in a loud voice], "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink! 38 He who believes in Me [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Me], as the Scripture has said, 'From his innermost being will flow continually rivers of living water.'" 39 But He was speaking of the [Holy] Spirit, whom those who believed in Him [as Savior] were to receive afterward. The Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).

Division of People over Jesus
40 Listening to these words, some of the people said, "This is certainly the Prophet!" 41 Others said, "This is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed)!" But others said, "Surely the Christ is not going to come out of Galilee, is He? 42 Does the Scripture not say that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David lived?" 43 So the crowd was divided because of Him. 44 Some of them wanted to arrest Him, but no one laid hands on Him.

  handled the word of Life 1   John 1

[I am writing about] what existed from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life [the One who existed even before the beginning of the world, Christ]—

2 and the Life [an aspect of His being] was manifested, and we have seen [it as eyewitnesses] and testify and declare to you [the Life], the eternal Life who was [already existing] with the Father and was [actually] made visible to us [His followers]—

3 what we have seen and heard we also proclaim to you, so that you too may have fellowship [as partners] with us. And indeed our fellowship [which is a distinguishing mark of born-again believers] is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

4 We are writing these things to you so that our joy [in seeing you included] may be made complete [by having you share in the joy of salvation].

God Is Light
5 This is the message [of God's promised revelation] which we have heard from Him and now announce to you, that God is Light [He is holy, His message is truthful, He is perfect in righteousness], and in Him there is no darkness at all [no sin, no wickedness, no imperfection].

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness [of sin], we lie and do not practice the truth;

7 but if we [really] walk in the Light [that is, live each and every day in conformity with the precepts of God], as He Himself is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another [He with us, and we with Him], and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin [by erasing the stain of sin, keeping us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].

8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude ourselves and the truth is not in us. [His word does not live in our hearts.]

9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just [true to His own nature and promises], and will forgive our sins and cleanse us continually from all unrighteousness [our wrongdoing, everything not in conformity with His will and purpose].

10 If we say that we have not sinned [refusing to admit acts of sin], we make Him [out to be] a liar [by contradicting Him] and His word is not in us.

BLESSED IS HE WHOM IS NOT OFFENDED  BECAUSE OF ME [WORD OF GOD  ] NAMED JESUS CHRIST    John 12
JESUS NEVER SPOKE A WORD  OF HIS  OWN For

I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.
 

Or, in other words, if you say you don't sin you are sinning.

And if God has consigned everyone to disobedience in order to have mercy on all, does that mean it's disobedient (and thus sinful) not to want to be disobedient?

Obviously that's a rhetorical question I've no reason to think you have, or any one else here. should have, an answer for it.

[lastpost]

Personally, I see this presentation – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit – as a way for the great Parent God to give to humanity a means whereby it may not only understand something of His ineffable Nature, but also a way to find Him and be with Him.

It seems to me that the Reality of Almighty God, in His greatness, His omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience in His entirety, is something which is far beyond a human being to comprehend. Indeed, I believe that a complete comprehension of All–Power, All–Knowledge, All–Wisdom, is something so far removed from a human being that He is only able to provide ideas and concepts which can be grasped by the human mind but which do not present the Divine Reality of the Godhead in His fullness – and as for experience of His Being, even the smallest gift of Divine Grace is as much as a human being can absorb, assimilate and dilate upon to the point that silence is eventually entered due to the lack of man–made adjectives to portray His indescribable overwhelming–ness.

While I believe that there is an eternity to come to know and become ever more acquainted with the Most High, I personally do not see an enigma with that presented to man of the Godhead – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit – certainly not one that should cause caustic feelings between people with different viewpoints. It would seem to me that the enemies of Christ thrive when people cannot accept such differences, because the humility of Christ is forgotten and banished by self – and the enemies get their chance to strike.

It seems to me that the loving–kindness and merciful benevolence of God did bless "man" from the beginning of Creation, with Christ. However, man being blind, was not able to perceive the generosity of the Great Giver who withholds nothing from His children but only waits until they are ready to accept it.

So, as I see it, from the Mind of the Most High who understands all things, was given – came forth, emanated, proceeded – the Person He is, who could bring the greatest gain to His children in a Form which was the most approachable and accessible available to man – the Messiah, Yeshua, Jesus.

Jesus the Christ of God – the Redeemer, the loving Saviour, the Good Shepherd – was the bridge, the connection, the conduit – over which and by which and through which the children of God who wandered in darkness might traverse the abyss between themselves and the One True God.

The comprehension of, or the understanding of God, I believe, comes through sifting and sifting, and bearing always in the mind the Holy Spirit or God or Christ, whichever aspect of the majestic Godhead that renders the greatest comfort and aid. I do believe that God wants His children to know more and more of Him, which comes through growth. I do not believe that one is suddenly able to comprehend Almighty God in His totality in an instant – I personally think that is a misguiding notion portraying a God who has brought into being a wondrous Creation simply for a metaphorical switch to be turned on, as it were. A plant cannot be forced or it will fail through weakness. Neither can a plant be replanted into a new environment without some of its existing soil be carried in its roots. This is why, it seems to me, that there must always be something of the familiar when entering new conditions.

As I see it, always focussing on the One who is caring and loving, by keeping constantly close to the Father or Christ or the Holy Spirit, removes the thinking which is complex and replaces it with simplicity. In this way, according to my limited understanding, there comes a Day when an unutterable sense of everlasting youthfulness and freedom is found in the consciousness, a sense of not only belonging to God as a child but of being a daughter or son of His in Spirit. 

In my opinion, it is not an affront on humility to recognise oneself as that ordained by God Himself – as His child – but only with the innocence of a little child will come this realisation as a reality, and not simply as something read or heard.

This little world and the vast Realms of Spirit which man has speculated upon but of which he truly knows very little, are fathered by God. But because God is the Father of that immensity which man can only perceive in small part, it does not change the fact that He is the Father – individually and personally – of each of His children.

I personally have no problem but rather the opposite, in seeing God as being the Father–Redeemer of each one, and at the same time being the Christ – the God in Christ – of each one as the Saviour and Redeemer. I see the Holy Spirit not only being the Comforter and the Guide, but also as that priceless facet of the Godhead who is Spirit, with which the Creator endowed His children out of Himself when He made them in His own Image – and one is only recognising and admitting ones relationship as a progressing child of God, bound to the Godhead through the Holy Spirit, a son or daughter.

This is just my opinion.

Peace †

[CST]

Thank you! :smile:

That sounds rather good. Even if it's clear the result has too much been more confusion and less peace and understanding. Honestly, I don't even understand any of this at all anymore, I suspect. Very confused.