Are Universalists, Trinitarians?

[Patinak]

Lastpost - Nicepost

[rosered]

 
CST said

Or, in other words, if you say you don't sin you are sinning.

And if God has consigned everyone to disobedience in order to have mercy on all, does that mean it's disobedient (and thus sinful) not to want to be disobedient?

Obviously that's a rhetorical question I've no reason to think you have, or any one else here. should have, an answer for it.

  What I am trying to say is CST   when you are   in the Body of Christ you are in sinless flesh ..  none of will enter in our own sinful flesh  , flesh and blood cannot inherit the things of God  , just the things of this world and namely death ...   under the law we are put to death   so faith  tested and passing the test  can have its perfect work ...3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.......
  Jesus Christ made the way    though His flesh for us to enter  in the holy of holies   or most holy place ..

   Hebrews 10 19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God,...

   His sinless flesh is the only way to the Father  , I do believe Paul   was there in the holy of holies the "third heaven "  and the first one to experience this    by the Revelation or revealing of Christ among the chosen  12  and that Jesus chose him   specifically   out of    literally   thousands of prospects    to prove a point .

That even murderers can be forgiven  and used by God in the most  glorious of ways , because it says no murderers can enter    Rev 21 ...7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

"The New Jerusalem
...26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27  and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

  The ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER  IS THOUGH  JESUS CHRIST  SINLESS  BODY   ....     Rev 15 ...7Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.


8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

  I will always believe we are   so   much more than just  one little human being , but made up  of many things  within us ,, the whole world , Word and  spirits   so very much more   [ECC3 ]   God Set Eternity in the Heart of Man
11 He has made everything beautiful and appropriate in its time. He has also planted eternity [a sense of divine purpose] in the human heart [a mysterious longing which nothing under the sun can satisfy, except God]—yet man cannot find out (comprehend, grasp) what God has done (His overall plan) from the beginning to the end.   
This is why we are to judge NOTHING  or no one before the time till the Lord comes   ,  He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God. 

  JESUS CHRIST always  knows our hearts and when HE RULES IT  or not ......

and only though Him will we see GOD   and know   things beyond the wildest  of  imaginations ...    hoping this was much more clear than the first .
 
  The Father  and Son and Holy Spirit are all one and the SAME    doing the works together as ONE  , 

   They destroy, tear down strongholds  and build,  make new   as the old  becomes non existent    in your world and life       and it is individually as    can be    this is why  no one knows the time or hour     not the  angels  nor Jesus but the FATHER ONLY  . 

Because the FATHER IS SEEKING THOSE  TO WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH      , Which  the Lord Jesus Christ is  the   / WORD OF GOD MADE   HIS  FLESH ...    new spiritual bodies , living epistles  You are our letter, having been inscribed in our hearts, being known and being read by all men,

that are the glory of God   now in   this world to see   manifested and drawing all men unto Christ   body of  believers [ 1 Cor 15] ..

[eaglesway]

Fine, even though I think this is a more go to board for people who want to know about what we think about the Trinity I will abstain from writing more of my feelings on it here except in response to posters I am responding to and wait until I get to one of those other ones. Perhaps, not the one you keep direction us to though. That seems to be a breakaway from another topic and looks, to me, like a mess.

Any debate on the Godhead issue is going to be a mess. That's why we dont allow it to be rehashed on the site. This site is purposely limited in scope to subjects related to the salvation of all.

Every other subject under the sun has been discussed and or debated at one time or another, so we are pretty liberal about this- but there are LOTS of other sites where the Godhead can be addressed and discussed and debated.

My experience is that that discussion will almost always turn contentious because not every one is able to discuss this from a strictly scholarly perspective- remaining in a collegial and respectful attitude.

Tentmaker is definitely not a "go to" board for the discussion of the Godhead, and there is no singular view among believers in the salvation of all- who come from many different backgrounds.

[CST]

 
CST said

Or, in other words, if you say you don't sin you are sinning.

And if God has consigned everyone to disobedience in order to have mercy on all, does that mean it's disobedient (and thus sinful) not to want to be disobedient?

Obviously that's a rhetorical question I've no reason to think you have, or any one else here. should have, an answer for it.

  What I am trying to say is CST   when you are   in the Body of Christ you are in sinless flesh ..  none of will enter in our own sinful flesh  , flesh and blood cannot inherit the things of God  , just the things of this world and namely death ...   under the law we are put to death   so faith  tested and passing the test  can have its perfect work ...3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.......
  Jesus Christ made the way    though His flesh for us to enter  in the holy of holies   or most holy place ..

   Hebrews 10 19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God,...

   His sinless flesh is the only way to the Father  , I do believe Paul   was there in the holy of holies the "third heaven "  and the first one to experience this    by the Revelation or revealing of Christ among the chosen  12  and that Jesus chose him   specifically   out of    literally   thousands of prospects    to prove a point .

That even murderers can be forgiven  and used by God in the most  glorious of ways , because it says no murderers can enter    Rev 21 ...7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

"The New Jerusalem
...26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27  and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

  The ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER  IS THOUGH  JESUS CHRIST  SINLESS  BODY   ....     Rev 15 ...7Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.


8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

  I will always believe we are   so   much more than just  one little human being , but made up  of many things  within us ,, the whole world , Word and  spirits   so very much more   [ECC3 ]   God Set Eternity in the Heart of Man
11 He has made everything beautiful and appropriate in its time. He has also planted eternity [a sense of divine purpose] in the human heart [a mysterious longing which nothing under the sun can satisfy, except God]—yet man cannot find out (comprehend, grasp) what God has done (His overall plan) from the beginning to the end.   
This is why we are to judge NOTHING  or no one before the time till the Lord comes   ,  He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God. 

  JESUS CHRIST always  knows our hearts and when HE RULES IT  or not ......

and only though Him will we see GOD   and know   things beyond the wildest  of  imaginations ...    hoping this was much more clear than the first .
 
  The Father  and Son and Holy Spirit are all one and the SAME    doing the works together as ONE  , 

   They destroy, tear down strongholds  and build,  make new   as the old  becomes non existent    in your world and life       and it is individually as    can be    this is why  no one knows the time or hour     not the  angels  nor Jesus but the FATHER ONLY  . 

Because the FATHER IS SEEKING THOSE  TO WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH      , Which  the Lord Jesus Christ is  the   / WORD OF GOD MADE   HIS  FLESH ...    new spiritual bodies , living epistles  You are our letter, having been inscribed in our hearts, being known and being read by all men,

that are the glory of God   now in   this world to see   manifested and drawing all men unto Christ   body of  believers [ 1 Cor 15] ..

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

But only when it suits Him.

It is an infuriating anomaly of the Bible (or at least how it's translated) that even while it uses the word 'world' here to describe the created order which God loves and endeavors to save and will save so we believe. It also frequently uses it, probably more frequently, to describe the Kingdom of Satan and the Reign of Sin which God must hate, reject and shun and must demand that we hate, reject and shun it likewise in order to be in Jesus and inherit eternal life. Even though it is the domain we are born into and what we know best. Obviously it stands to reason that the things that attract us most are things of the world that what we encounter most frequently with little to no reason to question them usually.

I love Earthly things, I'm sure I do. I seriously doubt the things that attract me most in my life are heavenly things. I like my Earthly things and I'm pretty sure that means I'm not in Jesus' wonderfully flawless body at the moment. But I also don't see that changing anytime ever. Which means I wonder how God is supposed to love Earthly things like me when He hates and spurns all that is Earthly and worldly. God so loved the world... but.

I'm not going to be perfect and complete because I'm not going perfect and complete as I am not. To become perfect and complete I'll have to abandon these Earthly things that make me who I am now and acquire new things that will make me become some else who is probably so far removed removed from who I am now that it would be dishonest to affix the pronouns 'I', 'me' and 'myself' to that being. But apparently God loves me. That concept sounds so logically unsound as to cause me major confusion.

It's easy to quote that God has made everything beautiful and appropriate in its time but the attitude the Bible seems to encourage to us to hold is that the World is so far fallen that all is ruined and ugly and polluted and there is no beauty or goodness to be found anywhere.

I find these sort of thoughts especially hard.

[CST]

Fine, even though I think this is a more go to board for people who want to know about what we think about the Trinity I will abstain from writing more of my feelings on it here except in response to posters I am responding to and wait until I get to one of those other ones. Perhaps, not the one you keep direction us to though. That seems to be a breakaway from another topic and looks, to me, like a mess.

Any debate on the Godhead issue is going to be a mess. That's why we dont allow it to be rehashed on the site. This site is purposely limited in scope to subjects related to the salvation of all.

Every other subject under the sun has been discussed and or debated at one time or another, so we are pretty liberal about this- but there are LOTS of other sites where the Godhead can be addressed and discussed and debated.

My experience is that that discussion will almost always turn contentious because not every one is able to discuss this from a strictly scholarly perspective- remaining in a collegial and respectful attitude.

Tentmaker is definitely not a "go to" board for the discussion of the Godhead, and there is no singular view among believers in the salvation of all- who come from many different backgrounds.

Oh, no!

I have agreed to abstain from post my feelings about the nature of the Trinity anymore in this thread because you don't think it will be helpful to put it here.

But I also think, while there may be good reasons not to discuss it on this site I don't think it's helpful to argue against discussing it using what I think are false reasons and I feel it's wrong for me not to address them.

Firstly, if we believe as is often implied God made the world in order to save the world, after all He made it knowing it would fall and need to be saved. It's not, I think, honest to claim any subject as being outside the scope of Universal Salvation if we believe that to be God's purpose.

But I'll fair perhaps it's only tentatively connected, perhaps there are many more relevant things for discussion. I'll quote Rose, quoting scripture, from above to argue that it's not.

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Therefore anyone who proclaims the doctrine of the Trinity and it isn't true and they are speaking falsely they are not in the body of Jesus and their salvation will be at the very least deferred. It is not our business, if we hold to the Salvation of All, to allow people to fall thus because we allowed them to believe falsehoods. I don't think this is what we are called to do. Not that I pretend I'm sure how to do what we are called to do.

So if it is false it is certainly pertinent to the salvation of all.

And what if it is true? There are a number of people in the world who claim that the doctrine of the Trinity is unbiblical and they reject it. However, in many cases they simultaneously reject the divinity of Jesus and this is a very big deal. If they are wrong then their salvation is in jeopardy but if they are right and Jesus is not God then there is no salvation because Jesus was just a man and the Bible speaks blasphemous lies about Him in claiming that He is God. Jesus is God or else no one is saved and there is no salvation, universal or otherwise.

So whether the Trinity is a true doctrine or a false one or whether it might be best not to talk about it on this site I don't think it is correct to say that it is not pertinent to Universal Salvation. To me it seems to be very much at the heart of it.

[GodIsLove]

I would assume a liar is only a liar if they know they are lying and willingly decieve. I am not God but this is just my thought. So hopefully if someone is fuzzy on the nature of the Trinity it is not a deal breaker.

But even if it is, we will be corrected in love and ultimately be united with God after that.

I get where you are coming from though.

I think many on here believe that Jesus is not a mere man, but the NATURE of His relationship to God is what is debated. Like if he is eternally begotten (He always existed with God the father) or was created prior to God creating the material universe, and then all things were created through Him (Jesus).

But I understand you wanting us to get it right so as to not spread falsehood.

[Ross]

Read the history of the doctrine and how it came about.
We are made in God's image- are we three beings in one?

[eaglesway]

Lets not have the debate here in this thread. Altho some of you were not members at the time, this has been rehashed ad nauseum in the past. it is not the purpose of the forum to examine the godhead doctrine, but if someone wants to see what some of the different views held by some of the members of the forum are they would have to dig through the thread/link posted earlier in this thread. Thanks.

[jabcat]

Lets not have the debate here in this thread. Altho some of you were not members at the time, this has been rehashed ad nauseum in the past. it is not the purpose of the forum to examine the godhead doctrine, but if someone wants to see what some of the different views held by some of the members of the forum are they would have to dig through the thread/link posted earlier in this thread. Thanks.

^^

[darryl]

well, I believe in UR and I believe in the Triune God so I guess that makes me a Christian Trinitarian Universalist.Phew !..glad I got all that out there !.

[CST]

I would assume a liar is only a liar if they know they are lying and willingly decieve. I am not God but this is just my thought. So hopefully if someone is fuzzy on the nature of the Trinity it is not a deal breaker.

But even if it is, we will be corrected in love and ultimately be united with God after that.

I get where you are coming from though.

I think many on here believe that Jesus is not a mere man, but the NATURE of His relationship to God is what is debated. Like if he is eternally begotten (He always existed with God the father) or was created prior to God creating the material universe, and then all things were created through Him (Jesus).

But I understand you wanting us to get it right so as to not spread falsehood.

Possibly but the intimation in that passage from Revelation, which I believe I've also seen translated as all kinds of liars, is that is seems to catch anyone who might not fit in the other groups (if such things exist).

But my real issue is not just about not wanting to spread falsehood it's that poor as I am at it I do believe there is a call to evangelism placed on Christians and this isn't just about telling them that Jesus died for their sins so that they can store the knowledge for later when then feel a bit low. The commission given to us by Jesus is very straight forward "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 28:19) How are we supposed to do that if we don't know what it means to do so?

And note remember it is name in the singular, even the New World Translation does this it's not names in the plural. These beings share one name. Now remember in the Hebrew a name isn't just what something is called it's a way of expressing there fundamental character and nature. Therefore it would suggest that these three beings are identical in character and nature. That should settle the matter. But people aren't very inclined to think like that.   

[eaglesway]

There is room for believers in good standing to disagree about things. Evangelism is not at all dependent on any particular godhead doctrine that exceeds Romans 10. I have worshipped and shared communion with believers of different persuasions on this issue and seen people saved in their varying churches 😎

[CST]

Please explain what you mean by "seen people being saved" that sounds like a very bold declaration to me. As I understand it none of us know who is saved until their name is announced from the Book Of Life on the "last day". Although there are people we have reason to believe it is unlikely their name will be in there at first reading so to speak.

Remember those who are not in Jesus and thus Jesus is not in them do not have the Truth in them. That would make them liars, intentional or not, and subject to the penalty described above.

[GodIsLove]

I am still struggling with your portrayal as anyone who says something false as a liar. My understanding of liar is someone who decieves intentionally.

If someone told me it was raining out and I was in a room with no windows, and then I told someone else it's raining, I am mistaken but not a liar.  The person who told me it was raining is the liar.

When I go outside and see it is sunny, I will know the truth and may feel hurt that I was lied to and feel bad that I passed on the lie, but in the end I will know that i wasn't truly at fault.  I couldn't have verified the weather at that time in the room with no windows.

By portraying anyone who doesn't believe in the Trinity as a liar, and not just mistaken given the information they have available to them and their current understanding, you are implying that you are never mistaken about anything ever, especially on matters of theology.  We both know that can't be true.

Like I said, we will be corrected and that will be that.

[eaglesway]

The word saved(sozo) means delivered, healed, restored.

People are saved when they believe in the death, burial and resurrection and submit to the Lordship of, Jesus Christ.

They are saved as they continue steadfast in the faith through the ongoing sanctification of the Holy Spirit.

They are saved on the day when they give glory to God in the resurrection.

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:12

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24

All the continuing aspects of salvation begin when one believes.

[eaglesway]

It is, imo, an inflammatory characterization to include everyone who does not believe what I believe as  "liar"- because all of us are in error in some measure.

[gregoryfl]

Although controversial, to be sure, it actually IS possible to have a coherent discussion of this, each coming from a different viewpoint, with the end result being edifying for all. Several years ago I had read of a fictional discussion of this subject on a website, which I had since lost track of. In doing a random internet search this morning, I came across a website where I found the missing article again, the spirit prompting my mind concerning it. Therefore, I am sharing this fictional exchange, for all here to consider. It is taken from http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/trinity2.html- Ronen

The characters and their beliefs represent very different movements, and are entirely plausible. The main character is Sam the Seeker, who has called together four of his friends to question them about their beliefs. The friends are Thomas the Trinitarian, an Evangelical; Annie the Arian, an Adventist; David the dynamic Monarchian, who describes himself as a Biblical Unitarian; and Michelle the modalist, a charismatic. The setting is a table in a bowling alley, and the characters are sharing cheese and nachos between games.

"That's what I said," Sam chuckled as he reached for another cheese-laden nacho. "Really, I've been reading up on the topic but I still don't know what to believe. And I don't see how each of you can get along so well despite your radically different ideas about who Jesus is."

"I don't know that our views are that radically different," Thomas said. "I understand where you're coming from, though. There was a time when I believed that only Trinitarians could be saved. It wasn't until I got to know Michelle that I realized that other interpretations were possible. She still loves Jesus, even if she does speak in tongues." With a wink he playfully jabbed her shoulder, and she responded with a sardonic grin.

"Tom had a hard time understanding my view at first," Michelle interjected. "But after we discussed it for a few hours he began to see where I was coming from."

"Where are you coming from?" Sam asked. "What's your position?"

"Well," she said, "My position is really very simple: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.' Deuteronomy 6:4. That's it right there. God is one, not three or three-in-one. And Jesus is God, right? That means that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit — they're all the same. There's no difference between Jesus and the Father. In fact Jesus said it himself: 'I and my Father are one.'"

"How do you understand that?" Sam asked Tom.

"Well she's quoting John chapter 10 verse 30. If you were to look at the original Greek in that verse, you'd see that the word for 'one' is neuter, not masculine. To me that says not that Jesus and the Father are one Person, but rather that they are one in substance. They're distinct Persons, but they're both equally God."

"Another way to look at that," said Annie, putting down her soft drink, "is that Jesus and the Father are of the same mind. They're perfectly united in will. Seven chapters later, in John 17:21-23, Jesus prayed that we, too, would be 'one,' just as he and his Father are 'one.' That tells me that the 'oneness' represents unity."

"Well whatever the 'oneness' there is," Tom said, "what really got me about Michelle's position is that she does have some other very good verses. Like Isaiah 9:6. I know how I interpret it, but I can definitely see how it could support her view."

"What does that verse say?" Sam asked.

"That's where Isaiah prophesies that Jesus will be called 'Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The Everlasting Father," said Michelle. "That means that not only is Jesus God; he's the Father, literally."

"How do you understand that?" Sam asked Tom as he reached for another nacho.

"Well," Tom said, "Obviously I agree that Jesus is God. But is he literally the Father? To me that wouldn't seem consistent with the rest of the Bible, which implies a distinction. Perhaps the phrase 'Everlasting Father' is a way of saying that Jesus will be like the 'father' of the restored earth. One ancient Greek translation of Isaiah 9:6 renders it that way. It says that he will be called 'Father of the age to come."

"That's the way I look at it, too," David said.

Sam turned next to Annie. "You've said that you don't think Jesus is really God. How then do you explain the fact that Isaiah 9:6 says he will be called 'Mighty God'? Doesn't that settle the issue?"

"Well the word 'god' is used in a secondary sense of important people and of God's representatives," Annie answered. "As Jesus pointed out, for example, Psalm 82:6 calls Israel's judges 'gods.' Now the Hebrew word for 'god' in Isaiah 9:6 is also used to describe king Nebuchadnezzar in Ezekiel 31:11. And the word for 'mighty' in that verse is used in Ezekiel 32:12 to describe Nebuchadnezzar's armies. So the term 'mighty god' there doesn't have to mean that Jesus is literally Jehovah. I've seen some translators render that phrase 'mighty hero.' I think that catches the meaning of what Isaiah is saying: Jesus, the Messiah, is mighty.

"Besides that," she went on, stopping for a moment to sip her soft drink, "Jesus is the Word and Wisdom of God, right? And what does Proverbs 8:22 say?" She pulled out her New International Version pocket New Testament with Psalms and Proverbs, and flipped through the pages to Proverbs 8:22. "Wisdom says, 'The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works.' Jesus was the first created being of God. Then look at verse 30, describing the creation: 'Then I was the craftsman at his side.' After God created Jesus, Jesus was involved in creating the earth. Notice that there are two of them there."

"Two of them?" asked Sam with a frown. "Isn't that like polytheism - two different Gods?"

"Not if only one of them is God, and the other one is his Son," she replied.

"There is another way to look at Proverbs 8," said David, himself reaching for a nacho. He held it in front of him as he talked. "Keep in mind that we're dealing with poetical literature. I think that 'Wisdom' there is a figure of speech, a personification of one of God's attributes. It's not Jesus. After all, 'Wisdom' is a woman, whereas Jesus is a man. And look at verse 12," he said, glancing over at Annie's open pocket Bible. "'I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence.' If 'Wisdom' is Jesus, who's 'Prudence'?"

Tom smiled. "Good point."

"Well," continued Annie, there's Colossians 1:15." She flipped through her tiny pocket Bible's pages and produced the passage. "'He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created.' If Jesus was the 'firstborn of all creation,' doesn't that mean he was the first created being? And doesn't it go on to say that he created the earth, Dave?"

"Well," David began, having consumed his nacho, "to begin with, I don't think the point of this passage is the pre-existence of Christ. I think we can all agree that the point of the passage is the pre-eminence of Christ. Seen in that light, I think the term 'firstborn' is more a way of describing the fact that Jesus, like the firstborn son in Hebrew tradition, inherits certain privileges — in this case preeminence. I also think it's a reference to his resurrection, like in verse 18, 'the firstborn from among the dead.'"

"How do you explain verse 16, which says that Christ created the world?" Sam asked.

"I'm not so sure it's translated correctly, for one thing," he replied. The word here translated 'by' is actually the word for 'in.' I've always preferred the translation of the New Revised Standard Version. It says, 'for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created....all things have been created through him and for him." God created everything with Jesus in mind - but the Bible never actually says that the world was created by Jesus. Isaiah 44:24 says that God alone created the earth."

"But that seems like an unnatural way to interpret that preposition 'through,'" Tom interrupted. "If God created the earth 'through' Christ, doesn't that mean that he was an agent?"

"Well, I'll admit that, grammatically speaking, that's the most natural way to understand the word 'through.' But again, there are other verses, like Isaiah 44:24, that settle the issue for me. Having said that, there is yet another way to understand that verse. You'll notice it talks about the creation of thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers; all spiritual realities. It doesn't talk about rocks and trees and lakes. It's very possible this could be talking about Jesus as the creator of the new creation too."

"Well, Tom," said Sam, "I haven't really asked you to state your position yet. In a positive way, how would you describe your view that Christ, being fully God, yet came to the earth and became human?"

"May I borrow your New Testament?" Tom asked Annie. She slid it across the table to him. He flipped it open to the first part of Philippians. "In Philippians 2:6 and 7, Paul writes about Jesus, 'Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equalitywith God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.' To me that says it all. Jesus shared the very nature or substance of God, but he gave up his heavenly glory, coming down to earth to become human."

"How do you interpret that?" Sam asked David.

"Well again, I'd have to question the translation," David said as Tom smiled. "Does the Greek word in verse 6 mean 'nature,' as the NIV has it, or 'form,' as the New American Standard Version has it? If the latter, then what does it mean to say that Jesus was in the 'form' of God, but did not consider equality with God something to be grasped? I think there's a comparison being made with Adam, who was created in the image of God but who sinned in Eden, grasping at equality with God. By contrast, Jesus, who like Adam was created in the image or form of God, chose not to grasp at equality with God, but chose rather to humble himself, subjecting himself to our lowly estate and going to the cross for our sins."

"Well it's true that Jesus humbled himself," Tom said, "But it's also true that Jesus was the Word who was God in the beginning. And that Word became flesh. That's in John chapter 1."

"What do you think of that, Annie?" Sam asked.

"Seeing as there's no article for the word 'god' in the Greek," she replied, "I think it should be translated, 'The Word was a god.'"

"I don't think that's a likely translation," said Tom.

"How about you, Dave?" Sam asked. "What do you think about John chapter 1?"

"I agree with Tom that it shouldn't read 'The Word was a god,' David said. "But as with Wisdom in Proverbs 8, I have doubts about whether it's talking about the Person of Jesus or about a personification, about God's expression. After all, God did create the heavens and the earth by 'his word'; he said 'Let there be light' and the rest of it. And that Word became flesh in Jesus."

"How about you, Michelle?" Sam asked. "How do you interpret this chapter of the Bible? Isn't the Word distinguished from God?"

"I agree with Dave's interpretation of that chapter," she said. "As you know, for Dave and Annie the Father is the only God, and Jesus is separate. But I believe that in reality there is no separation, as Jesus is the Father. As the Father, Jesus always existed and alone created the earth — like Isaiah 44:24 says. When we talk about Jesus as the Father, we're talking about his deity. When we talk about him as the Son, we're talking about his humanity. Jesus was both God and man, both Father and Son. But if his Sonship is his humanity, then it isn't proper to talk about the Son existing in the beginning, as if there were two Creators. So the Word through which God created the world — I don't believe the Word was actually a separate Person, but God's expression, a way of talking about his divine plan. This plan became flesh when the Father — that is, Jesus — was incarnated as the Son."

Sam toyed with that thought as he played with another nacho. Then, breaking the silence, turned to Annie. "I'm getting the idea about how each of you interpret the main chapters — Isaiah 9, Proverbs 8, Colossians 1, Philippians 2, John 1 — but let me try to see the forest and not just the trees. Annie, you've made it clear that you do think Jesus personally existed with God in the beginning, but you don't believe he is literally God. What's the underlying principle behind that doctrine?"

Annie retrieved her pocket NIV from Tom and flipped it open to 1 Timothy 2. "For me it's all spelled out in 1 Timothy 2:5. There Paul writes, 'For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.' Now let's illustrate this point with my soda and your nachos. If I were to say, there's only one soda pop, and one plate of nachos, and — " she interposed a pepper shaker between the two — "one pepper dispenser between the soda and the chips — then would I be able to say that the pepper is the pop? For God to reach a sinful race, there needs to be a mediator. And a mediator is a go-between. Jesus isn't God but the mediator for God."

"So you're saying that your Christology has a soteriological basis," Tom said.

"I think so — what does 'soteriological' mean again?" Annie asked.

"Having to do with salvation," Tom answered. "My Christology also has a soteriological basis. I believe the only way for God to bridge the gap is to combine deity and humanity into one. That's why I believe Jesus is God and man. God is the only being whose death can have saving value. That's why Jesus, the God-man, died on the cross."

"God died on the cross — I can agree with that," Michelle said.

"Well," said Dave, "I understand your point. But what I see in the New Testament is a little bit different. I don't see anything that says God has to die in order for salvation to be wrought. Rather, what I see is that a sinless human person needed to die to fulfill God's covenant requirements. Hebrews chapter 2, for example, says that Jesus had to be a man in order to die an effective death — it doesn't say he had to be God. Now why is that? If we consider Paul's comparison of Christ with Adam in Philippians 2, Romans 5, and 1 Corinthians 15, I think the picture begins to emerge. Sin entered the world through a real man; hence it had to be conquered through a real man. That's how I understand it."

Sam put down his last nacho with a sigh. "Okay, I'm starting to go into 'information overload.' All this talk about the Greek and the Hebrew and translations and interpretations — and so many different opinions — you guys have been studying this for years. I just feel frustrated. Who's correct?"

Sam's friends pondered in silence. Tom finally broke the silence. "If you feel that you need to figure all of this out, then by all means keep studying. But remember that when all is said and done, it's Jesus who saves you, not your ability to figure him out. That's why, for example, I believe Michelle and Annie and Dave can all be saved, even though in my opinion they haven't understood the doctrine correctly."

"I agree," said Michelle. "I believe I'm right in what I believe, but these others haven't come to the same conclusion. I believe they're sincere and that they've studied hard, and that Jesus is pleased with them. After all, all of us are wrong about something. And who knows? Maybe I'm the one who hasn't interpreted all the verses correctly."

"The fact is that we all have tons of Scripture to back up what we believe," David said. "And we're all trying to be biblical. That's one of the reasons we have such good fellowship. We pray together and for each other on a regular basis. And when our churches have combined services, we really enjoy worshipping together."

"And talking a lot," said Annie. "See? We've lost our lane. Someone else has moved in there."

"As long as we don't miss the real point," Tom added, "which is the fact that Jesus loves us, whether or not we get all our theology figured out."

"I like the sound of what you're saying," Sam said, "but how would you respond to the idea that each of you has a 'different Jesus'? After all your views are so different."

David thought about that a moment. "I don't think we each believe in a 'different' Jesus. We just don't understand everything about him in exactly the same way. Sure, we can't all be right about the details, but we all have a very good idea of who he i s — the revelation of the loving Father, the chosen Messiah and Son of God."

Sam looked thoughtful but didn't reply, so David continued.

"Think of it this way. You know Frank the mailman?"

"Oh sure," Sam said.

"You know where he's from?"

"Well he has that accent. And considering the spelling of his last name — I'd say Germany."

"Wrong," David said. "He's from Switzerland."

"So what's the point?" Sam asked.

"My point is that we both know Frank. We had different ideas about the exact identification of his origin, but it's still the same Frank. I wouldn't ever think about telling you that you know 'another Frank' because you didn't understand everything about him. So it is with Jesus. Each of us here has a relationship with Jesus, even though we may not completely agree on, or even understand, everything about him. But we do know the basics: We know that he is truly God's Son, and that he died on the cross to save us from our sins, however that works."

[eaglesway]

It is definitely possible to have a civilized discussion on the nature of deity. It is also highly unlikely :o)

[rosered]

It is definitely possible to have a civilized discussion on the nature of deity. It is also highly unlikely :o)

  I know you are right,  we lost a   wonderful     member  , over this  horrid    division   that hurts     , still miss    Molly   to this day    :CryBaby:

[CST]

I am still struggling with your portrayal as anyone who says something false as a liar. My understanding of liar is someone who decieves intentionally.

If someone told me it was raining out and I was in a room with no windows, and then I told someone else it's raining, I am mistaken but not a liar.  The person who told me it was raining is the liar.

When I go outside and see it is sunny, I will know the truth and may feel hurt that I was lied to and feel bad that I passed on the lie, but in the end I will know that i wasn't truly at fault.  I couldn't have verified the weather at that time in the room with no windows.

By portraying anyone who doesn't believe in the Trinity as a liar, and not just mistaken given the information they have available to them and their current understanding, you are implying that you are never mistaken about anything ever, especially on matters of theology.  We both know that can't be true.

Like I said, we will be corrected and that will be that.

The word saved(sozo) means delivered, healed, restored.

People are saved when they believe in the death, burial and resurrection and submit to the Lordship of, Jesus Christ.

They are saved as they continue steadfast in the faith through the ongoing sanctification of the Holy Spirit.

They are saved on the day when they give glory to God in the resurrection.

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:12

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24

All the continuing aspects of salvation begin when one believes.

It is, imo, an inflammatory characterization to include everyone who does not believe what I believe as  "liar"- because all of us are in error in some measure.

Oh, I don't contest these points and share the reasoning and in common conversation I would never want to say someone is a liar who believes what they say even when they are mistake, though I think there there may be some flexibility in why they believe what they believe.

But the problem I have is that when the term liar is used in the Revelation it is used in a series of indictments of the "unsaved" body. IE those who are not in Christ I think we can agree on that. But I know we all lie at some time in our lives. All lie in the sense of speak to intentionally deceive or mislead. We are all guilt of this even if if we might not consider ourselves guilty of the other more serious seeming offences on that list (whether we are or not). It definitely covers all of the species regardless so only being forgiven and justified by the Lord can any of us hope to avoid the penalty, I know all this.

But Jesus claims to be the Truth and I obviously don't think this is an idea claim. And anything that is not the truth is falsehood and it would seem to be opposed to Jesus. Remember Jesus calls the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Truth that teaches us all things. So why does He teach some people one thing about the Trinity and another group of people a different thing? Well the answer is that He doesn't, does He? Some people receive true teaching from the Holy Spirit and other people, whatever they may think, receive false teaching from somewhere else. And that conflict that I perceives makes me doubt that all these people can really be in Jesus, I struggle to believe I'm in Jesus as you may have noticed. And I struggle to believe anyone who teaches the wrong thing is really in Jesus and all this I struggle with.

The matter of being saved is a much bigger issue for be, there seem to be parts of scripture that suggest getting salvation is easy others that it's something that you really have to put some effort in. That's why we have controversies over whether you can lose your salvation.

[rosered]

  Being made perfect in Love ........ there is not one divison in love

Love does not mean anything to the world ..

  But it is everything to do with GOD ...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+4&version=NASB

What is going to matter is how much you loved
Do you believe  salvation  has always depended on how much you know of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ?

  Or is the TREE OF LIFE  When perfect and complete LOVE  IS ABOUNDING ?

  Here  to tell everyone what an experience it is to have our faith tested   , faith is not real faith till its tested tried and true   

  We all as humans can say anything   and boast great things   about Gods Spirit   and   His Word

  But it really is going though  all them tests  of faith   and failures and   struggles and sufferings and    feelings every  emotion  rise up in you   

There will be this compassion    and empathy   come out of the worst of situations   and considering others because of it

   If and when death is   the last enemy   and that loss  , because you LOVED      stings like nothing else   you have ever known ,   Know this, GOD is dealing with you   , your pain and  torment  by those emotions are    real       and you never get over it , 
   But you LEARN       TO ACCEPT it   as GODS WILL    and you know the man of sin [error]    is experiencing death   , death is of this world and the temporary things we    dwell in and on    that LOSS   of everything you love and   hold dear    is ripped away from you

  Consider Job ,   LOVE is not love till  you experience  every  emotion possible  ,    death ,  guilt and anger and  loss and pain and   suffering and   sadness , hope   finally    joy  in KNOWING   GOD IS LOVE   and that it was always HIS   , we  ALL  are His   , all things are His   EVERY LIVING    THING ,  HE LOOSES NOTHING ...GOD OF THE LIVING   death is just the temporary state     that everything must rise up out of in  JESUS CHRIST     THE WORD OF  TRUTH / GOD   BY HIS OWN SPIRIT OF TRUTH ..  His work we  learn to   acknowledge   by faith      making  His righteousness    known  in the earth as it is in heaven .

Does knowing if these three are One    make salvation more sure ?  or Does knowing that LOVE   holds no ill of wrongdoing ?

   What makes  faith   possible to  please God ?    It is going through  those fiery trials and still  after all that   experience  , finally  trusting GOD for all you needs

  though it is a very painful process at the time  and you realize how miserable and wretched and blind and faithless   and poor you really are   and your   major lack  of love    , you ask for more of HIM   , FOR GOD IS LOVE ..... and JESUS CHRIST / THE WORD OF GOD, COME TO PROVE IT , AND  IT JUDGES US ALL .

   THE WORD OF TRUTH BY THE SPIRIT  OF TRUTH   is how the true worshippers will serve  GOD'S DESIRE being   MADE BY HIM ,FOR HIM AND THOUGH HIM

That substance

[CST]

  Being made perfect in Love ........ there is not one divison in love

Love does not mean anything to the world ..

  But it is everything to do with GOD ...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+4&version=NASB

What is going to matter is how much you loved
Do you believe  salvation  has always depended on how much you know of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ?

  Or is the TREE OF LIFE  When perfect and complete LOVE  IS ABOUNDING ?

  Here  to tell everyone what an experience it is to have our faith tested   , faith is not real faith till its tested tried and true   

  We all as humans can say anything   and boast great things   about Gods Spirit   and   His Word

  But it really is going though  all them tests  of faith   and failures and   struggles and sufferings and    feelings every  emotion  rise up in you   

There will be this compassion    and empathy   come out of the worst of situations   and considering others because of it

   If and when death is   the last enemy   and that loss  , because you LOVED      stings like nothing else   you have ever known ,   Know this, GOD is dealing with you   , your pain and  torment  by those emotions are    real       and you never get over it , 
   But you LEARN       TO ACCEPT it   as GODS WILL    and you know the man of sin [error]    is experiencing death   , death is of this world and the temporary things we    dwell in and on    that LOSS   of everything you love and   hold dear    is ripped away from you

  Consider Job ,   LOVE is not love till  you experience  every  emotion possible  ,    death ,  guilt and anger and  loss and pain and   suffering and   sadness , hope   finally    joy  in KNOWING   GOD IS LOVE   and that it was always HIS   , we  ALL  are His   , all things are His   EVERY LIVING    THING ,  HE LOOSES NOTHING ...GOD OF THE LIVING   death is just the temporary state     that everything must rise up out of in  JESUS CHRIST     THE WORD OF  TRUTH / GOD   BY HIS OWN SPIRIT OF TRUTH ..  His work we  learn to   acknowledge   by faith      making  His righteousness    known  in the earth as it is in heaven .

Does knowing if these three are One    make salvation more sure ?  or Does knowing that LOVE   holds no ill of wrongdoing ?

   What makes  faith   possible to  please God ?    It is going through  those fiery trials and still  after all that   experience  , finally  trusting GOD for all you needs

  though it is a very painful process at the time  and you realize how miserable and wretched and blind and faithless   and poor you really are   and your   major lack  of love    , you ask for more of HIM   , FOR GOD IS LOVE ..... and JESUS CHRIST / THE WORD OF GOD, COME TO PROVE IT , AND  IT JUDGES US ALL .

   THE WORD OF TRUTH BY THE SPIRIT  OF TRUTH   is how the true worshippers will serve  GOD'S DESIRE being   MADE BY HIM ,FOR HIM AND THOUGH HIM

That substance

I'm very fond of that part of John 1 but it's also rather infuriating at the moment because I'm living in an administration which scarcely seems to act on it.

I'm not sure how much I know of the tree of good and evil I know although I used to suspect it was about as much as Adam did owing to partaking in the same sin. I also didn't think I got to partake much of the tree of life until I'd got into the heavenly city. Having navigated the flaming sword God put in front of it and what you seem to be describing there.

Trusting God for all my needs seems like an easy prospect but in experience I don't feel I've received them all yet.

You asked "Does knowing if these three are one make salvation sure? or Does knowing that LOVE holds no ill of wrongdoing? (a Biblical statement I find strange given God's devastatingly dramatic responses to 'wrongdoing' in other parts of the Bible)

Well, I'm while I'm searching and reading article on the websites its self and today I have found one containing this Biblical reference:

"I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment." (1 Cor. 1:10)

Since it causes dispute amongst us and this verse opposes that, if I've understood rightly (which I may not have) according to Paul, yes it does matter. Sadly enough. I actually hope I have misunderstood.

[eaglesway]

CST,

Some of your descriptions, concerning the tree of life and the flaming sword for instance, are insightful and beautiful.

As far a division is concerned, the doctrinal issue does not cause it. The doctrinal issue is simply a point at which the carnal man gathers around the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and eats.

God is not, imo, in the slightest concerned whether we understand the nuts and bolts of the relationships within the deity- Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. he is more concerned if we understand that we are begotten from above by the living and abiding word of God unto a fervent love of the brethren. As Jesus prayed, "that they may be one as you and I are one".

There are various views upon these other things which men and women of good conscience may see differently- I personally think they are purposely obscured to test us.

I believe God will not be put in any box of our making and disregards our definitions as specious and self-serving for the most part. This is why Paul says not to get caught up in endless arguments about doubtful(hard to see clearly) disputations- BECAUSE THEY SUBVERT THE HEARERS. (These angry and divisive discussions undermine the faith of both seekers and new believers.)

The flaming sword stands at the entrance of the garden for all those who get too caught up in those things. James chapter 3 breaks it down well, for me anyway....


13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.

Flaming sword- works of the flesh disguised as spirit.....

14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.


Tree of Life- fruit of the spirit.....

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.


Factually, as regards salvation and inclusion in the universal body over which Jesus Christ is head,
all anyone needs to understand is that Jesus is the only begotten Son of YHWH and that He died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and lives as Lord and Savior- but even this factual understanding is not enough unless it is the result of a conversion, and interior connection to Him that has begun the process of changing our nature into conformity with His- because He is the tree of life and communion with Him brings forth the fruit of the Spirit.

"You believe God is one? The devils believe also and tremble"

I hav no problem with anyones's view of the Godhead until they try to make it a law- an established fact unto which everyone else must submit.

Those who are eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are always going outside of Christ and establishing points of "knowledge" that become prerequisites to communion. This is unholy and results in division because it is rooted in the ego/flesh/carnal mind.

"Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies(builds up)"

15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.[/b] Eph 4

While many people are absolutely certain their bond with some "truth" is critical to being "right", all these truths are subject to the truth of love.

Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.... Eph 4

The truth is they are mostly deceived- even when the 'truth" they teach is really "true"( factually)- because they hold that truth in the flesh as a support to their ego.

Perfect love casts out all fear, and fear has torment. When we walk in perfected love we are not threatened by someone telling us we are "wrong", because the perfection of love comes from fellowship with Him, the tree of life. We dont get riled up and threaten people with judgment when they disagree with us.

No one is completely perfected in this, we mature as a process of the dealings of God in our lives. but  as James writes,if  we have "selfish ambition and bitter jealousy" in our hearts we are "fooling ourselves". We are like a man who looks in a mirror and then walks away and immediately forgets who he was looking at.

Most of us would reject the idea that we may have "selfish ambition" driving things we believe, but if our ego is involved in our theology, we definitely do, and it fuels the vitriol that develops when we discuss disputable topics.

Only when the flesh is dead and we have no personal horses in the race can we really discuss the word of God as- as the rabbi's called it "mid-rash"- and be open to recieve enlightenment from the Spirit. That is maturity.

Love is the greater truth- the first law of Christ. "No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

Jesus made peace by removing the barriers, but we just keep putting them back up again as new traditions- and traditions make the word of God of none effect(in the lives of traditionalists and those under their influence).

We cannot fix that in this forum. whether it is 'free will' or 'godhead' or 'soul sleep' or whatever, many universalists are as attached to their traditions as anyone, and totally assured of their "correctness' in the positions they hold on these mysteries which, imo, are "seen through a glass darkly" in any case.

So, discussions on these things usually wind up with offenses and misunderstandings.

I understand why we continue to go there. Since UR is a "non- traditionalist" heresy ;o), you would think that you would find an openess to discuss all these things with a civilized detachment and an intelligent, scholarly, conversational tone- but it is not so. we are all in different places as we grow in grace.

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written,

"Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him."

10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

One of the first things a disciple must learn is if he/she is speaking to a spiritual person or a carnal one. Jesus said, "cast not your pearls before swine". Isaiah said, "The Lord has given me the tongue of disciples(the learned) that I might speak a word "in season" to sustain a weary one."

Jesus said, "Take my yoke upon you and learn of Me for I am gentle and humble and you will find rest for your souls."

Butting heads and eating garbage with goats in the goat yard is the passion of some folks. Those who walk with the Shepherd are led beside still waters and graze in green pastures and are comforted by His rod and staff.

Thank you Lord for teaching us to reign in our minds and tame our tongues so that we can be fruitful in the harvest :o)


PS... Sometimes I wonder if we should have a sub-forum for discussing all these doctrinal issues where the topics will not detract from our purpose here, which is to teach the Salvation of All through the cross of Jesus Christ- our Savior and Lord.

[Lazarus Short]

PS... Sometimes I wonder if we should have a sub-forum for discussing all these doctrinal issues where the topics will not detract from our purpose here, which is to teach the Salvation of All through the cross of Jesus Christ- our Savior and Lord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBmafwdPzes

[eaglesway]

PS... Sometimes I wonder if we should have a sub-forum for discussing all these doctrinal issues where the topics will not detract from our purpose here, which is to teach the Salvation of All through the cross of Jesus Christ- our Savior and Lord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBmafwdPzes

LOLOL