Are Universalists, Trinitarians?

[Seth]

Probably there is confusion or disagreement about what the "just" means, because I agree with you about the "yet carnal." Just is translated from a word that means "righteous" so when I see the word "just" I think about that scripture you quoted from John: "those who did good" as opposed to those who "practiced the evil things." I would consider the former to be the just/righteous and the latter to be the unjust/unrighteous.

[Tom]

So from what I have gathered the "just" and the "elect/chosen" are equally the same?
I believe when Jesus said, "many are called but few are chosen" I see the many as the just. I believe the elect/chosen are the few.
I understand the Lake of Fire to be the ultimate refining fire of purification.
I see in the verses below as a very special time, I do not see the "just or the many" I see an ELECT/CHOSEN :2c:
Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So if there is a "first" resurrection, there must be another. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." sounds to me like the "second death"[the LoF] could be that "another?" again my :2c:

"The just will enter the reconciliation at that time..." so there is no decisions [judgments]made in this reconciliation?

Noah was a "just" man, yet he was not and could not be "in Christ."
Ecc 7:20  For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

If the above be true, then the "just" most certainly will be judged.  :2c:
Gotta run to the bank running out of change :dsunny:

I think there is some confusion about the judgment of the nations and the judgment of individuals before the great white throne. I think those who died before Christ are not in the body of Christ, the chosen ecclesia, who meet him in the air when we're snatched away to be saved, from the coming indignation, for eonian life to minister in the celestial realm, who are mostly those of us of the nations with some Jews such as Paul and his companions. I think the judgment of the nations, figuratively the sheep and the goats (kids), as to whether they were friends or adversaries of Israel, will come at the beginning of the millennium, and the adversarial nations will be subjected to "chastening eonian" (kolasin aionion) figuratively with "fire eonian." I think the judgment for individual unbelievers before the great white throne will take place at the end of the millennium when they will be condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire." I know this has been mentioned before, but I don't think "chastening eonian" applies to "the second death-the lake of fire" because mortals condemned to it will be dead, and scripture only says the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons, which indicates they must be supernatural creatures not subject to death. Scripture says souls die (Ezekiel 18:4,20), and the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So I don't see anybody being chastened in "the lake of fire" except those creatures not subject to death.

"Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory, and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids. And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left. "Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world. For I hunger and you give Me to eat; I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in; naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.' "Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink? Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee? Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?' "And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.' "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the adversary and his messengers. For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink; a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.' "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?' "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.' And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (Matthew 25:31-46)

I think the information under the chart on the following webpage gives a good explanation of who, why, and when the "just" are judged.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[micah7:9]

Probably there is confusion or disagreement about what the "just" means, because I agree with you about the "yet carnal." Just is translated from a word that means "righteous" so when I see the word "just" I think about that scripture you quoted from John: "those who did good" as opposed to those who "practiced the evil things." I would consider the former to be the just/righteous and the latter to be the unjust/unrighteous.

Ill agree, still the "just" are yet carnal, as long as one is carnal there will be or is to judgment.  I believe the elect/chosen are yet carnal but/and are being judged now, and will be in the first resurrection. As I said Noah was a just man and there were many just men in the OT.

[Eduard]

I find the Trinity to be a most confusing idea.  :dontknow:

[Tom]

Who doesn't?

[micah7:9]

I find the Trinity to be a most confusing idea.  :dontknow:

Not really,  the trinity teaching is " 3 persons" in 1. Where in the Bible do you find the Holy Spirit addressed as a "person"?

[Tom]

Nowhere, and it doesn't say the Father is a person either. I think the Trinity is just the Roman Empire's version of political correctness when you've got a bunch of pagans living with a bunch of Christians, but it sure messed up this idea.

"Jesus answered him that "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord."" (Mark 12:29)

[Tom]

"Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

[micah7:9]

"Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

:thumbsup: :iagree:

[Tom]

Amen, brother. Even though Yahweh, the Elohim of the Hebrews, has morphed into the three headed god of the Roman pagans for the church, I myself prefer Yahweh, even though I'm not Hebrew, but that's just another crazy thing about the church I disagree with.

[eaglesway]

I am not trinitarian, but the verse used to imply that the Holy Spirit is a person is,

John 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

In my opinion this scripture clearly identifies the Holy Spirit as Messiah-

"But you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you".

It was Jesus who was abiding with them. It is "Christ in you, the hope of glory". The relationship of Jesus and the Father within the Holy Spirit is a bit more complex than I want to get into- not saying I fully understand it either.

I really don't have so much trouble with the concept of the trinity- until it comes to the "co-equal" part of "co-equal, co-substantial, co-eternal"- and calling anyone who doesnt see that as heretical and bound for "hell" :laughing7:

None of the prevailing views fully explains the mystery of the godhead for me.

[Seth]

Eaglesway,
I agree because look at the next verse

John 14
18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

I see the preceding verses as Christ speaking about himself in the third person as he did when he called himself the Son of Man.

[eaglesway]

Yes. I see it that way too.

It's funny, because each of the main positions, all of which I have studied intensely over years, draws a hard line some place that seems to exclude certain verses.

Trinitarianism
Modalism
Bi-nitarianism
Biblical untiarianism

All of them want to "expalin" something in concrete terms, when there may not be(imo isnt) a concrete doctrine. God is spirit. Those who seek Him must seek Him in spirit and truth. I love to discuss it. I hate to debate it :o)

When I do debate it, I am always playing devil's advocate against the hard-lines of all of them, because I don't think any of them is 100% right.

my main objection to each.

Trinitarianism -Insist that the Father and the son are co-equal(Iam sure they are not) and co-eternal(I am not sure whether they are or not)

Modalism -Insist their is no separate identity between the Father and the Son( I am sure there is), saying Jesus is the Father.

Bi-nitarianism -Insist on co-equal and co-eternal also, like Trinitarianism in all respects excepting they do not attribute a third co-equal person for the Spirit, but see the Spirit as the union of the Father and Son, or as, "the Father through the Son"(I agree with their view on the Spirit as God in/through Christ)

Biblical Untitarianism - Insist Jesus did not pre-exist His birth( I am sure He did, altho I do not fully understand the nature of that existence, having studied all the positions and finding none completely satisfying)

[Seth]

Yeah,  :iagree:

There is an aspect to God's nature that we just cannot understand as physical beings and I don't think we will understand until it's time. I lean toward the idea that Jesus was created before his physical birth, and descended into the flesh, and that his Father created him. I believe his is God but in the sense that scripture says that "he thought it not robbery to be considered equal with God" (Phil 2:6). I believe there are two, the Father and the Son, and that the Father is over the Son, but that the Son has been given authority to be considered equal, and that they are joined by the spirit. Not sure what name that has but it's my current understanding.

[eaglesway]

Yeah,  :iagree:

There is an aspect to God's nature that we just cannot understand as physical beings and I don't think we will understand until it's time. I lean toward the idea that Jesus was created before his physical birth, and descended into the flesh, and that his Father created him. I believe his is God but in the sense that scripture says that "he thought it not robbery to be considered equal with God" (Phil 2:6). I believe there are two, the Father and the Son, and that the Father is over the Son, but that the Son has been given authority to be considered equal, and that they are joined by the spirit. Not sure what name that has but it's my current understanding.

That is also exactly my current understanding.

You could call it, Non Co-equal and Co-eternal Unitarian Binitarianism   :banana:

[Seth]

 :laughing7:

As soon as I can pronounce it

[eaglesway]

Truly tho, the one thing I cannot understand is how anyone thinks they can get around the Shema.

Shema Yisrael Adonai eloheinu Adonai ehad (Deut 6:4)

[Tom]

I believe Yahweh Elohim, the Father, is the source of all (Genesis 1:1), "the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11), and the goal of all (1 Corinthians 15:28). Yehshua HaMashiach, Jesus Christ, is "the only-begotten son of God" (John 3:18) and "The Word of God" (Revelation 19:13) "Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature" (Colossians 1:15); who died for the sins of "the whole world" (1 John 2:2); "was roused from among the dead by the glory of the Father" (Romans 6:4); and sits at the Father's "right hand" in heaven (Matthew 26:24; Mark 14:62, 16:19; Luke 22:69). The "holy spirit" is not a mythical third "person" in a triune godhead. The word "holy" from the Hebrew "quodesh" and the Greek "hagion" means "set apart." The word "spirit" from the Hebrew "ruach" and the Greek "pneuma," literally "blow-effect," is by implication the imperceptible power of life. The holy spirit is the power of God that generated the Christ child in the virgin Mary (Matthew 1:18), inspired the authors of the scriptures (2 Peter 1:21), and lives in us believers (1 Corinthians 3:16). Christ or Peter or Paul never taught the doctrine of the Trinity. The Roman Empire established the doctrine of the Trinity for the sake of political expediency long after the scriptures were already the doctrine of believers. Words were added to 1 John 5:7 in Latin manuscripts in an attempt to verify the Trinity, but that deception has been discredited by earlier Greek manuscripts which do not contain that adulterated verse. Nowhere in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures does it say that the Father is a "person" co-equal with his son and his holy spirit. The Trinity is simply the philosophy of man, and it dishonors the Father. The ancient Jews differed from the other nations by believing in one God. Despite the fact that Trinitarians claim they also do, the Trinity originated from pagan polytheism. The Trinity does not represent the God of the Hebrews, and it should not represent the God of Christians. "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29) "For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:5,6) "Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only." (Matthew 24:36) "I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am leaving the world and am going to the Father." (John 16:28) "For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5) "He came out from God" (John 13:3) "I came out from God" (John 16:27) "I came out from the Father" (John 16:28) "You hear that I said to you, 'I am going, and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28) "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God." (John 20:17) An accurate translation of scripture says nothing of the Trinity despite the fact that it is church doctrine. Scripture is sufficient.

[micah7:9]

Nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to or called a "trinity."

The word "three" is never used in reference to Who or What God is.

God is never called or referred to as "a person."

The holy spirit is never called "God."

Since Christ is the Son, He cannot also be the Father or be coequal with His Father. Christ plainly said:

"My Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

[Tom]

I think the word "form" in Philippians 2:6 refers to how it is said that Christ was "equal with God" as "the image of God," the visible representation of the Father, appearing as blinding light to Saul on the road to Damascus. I think the word "empties" refers to the changing of "form" so the celestial glory was not visible to human sight.

"Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God, nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity" (Philippians 2:6,7) 

[micah7:9]

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

[Tom]

Amen

[dajomaco]

Trinitarianism
Modalism
Bi-nitarianism
Biblical untiarianism

These above where reason believers where put to death by other believers.

Very dark days back then.

[Tom]

Yeah, it's crazy that folks used to get killed for what we discuss on this forum, but I think that's because the Roman Empire really didn't care about scripture, just worldly power.

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself.""

The whole thing about heresy was just political suppression of those who disagreed with the church that was used to maintain the power of the secular government.

"we may by no means still be minors, surging hither and thither and being carried about by every wind of teaching, by human caprice, by craftiness with a view to the systematizing of the deception" (Ephesians 4:14)

That's why I think the church is just the remnant of the religious arm of the Roman Empire that controls its followers with fear of torture in fire forever. It really is an honor to be called a heretic because the church is actually guilty of what it's accusing others by not conforming to the word of God while we do. 

[eaglesway]

The Roman Empire always controlled the common people through religion. It just switched from one religion to another, the second being super-imposed over the first. Empires are always built upon religion. How else to justify the wholesale slaughter of other human beings? Most societies throughout the ages have been manipulated by religion. Even the Soviet Empire was built on religion, the religion of Communism. Secular Humanism is the new religion of our day. If we do not sense the quickly rising tide of "doctrines" that you better not contradict on pain of prison or death (speaking against homosexuality for instance).

The new god who does not judge or discern the wickedness and arrogance of men has many names, shapeshifting into  anything from a pan-theistic  glob of goo that tis as corrosive and all-consuming as The Blob, or a narrow and horrific judge like Allah, or an amorphous connection between all humanity(excluding Christ) or a Jesus in name only bearing none of the attributes of the divine nature and requiring no sacrifice but that of the law and the carved out idols of systematic theology and doctrines of devils.

Since the beginning there have only been a few, here and there, seeking to know Him as He is, the I AM, YHWH, the one true invisible God and His Messiah, the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation of His image.

Nevertheless, His mercy reigns over the sons of men :o)

22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.  The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;  nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;  and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.