Maybe it has already been asked, but I dare ask myself from each of you on this site. :dunno2:
It's a touchy subject, but Laz is a super-trinitarian. See, you've got the Father, the Son, and the seven Spirits of God. That makes nine, a trinity of trinities...
:dsunny:
:dsunny:
:dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:
...and yet, They are One. There's another subject we can't get our limited, carnal, three-dimensional minds around.
I suspect you are joshing. In fact I am convinced you are!! :winkgrin:
This business of God being one, or two are three has been around since who knows when. :rolleye:
Simple - God is one :bowing:
God the Father and Jesus Christ are One. :sohappy:
Quote from: joeteekay on October 07, 2014, 05:06:13 AM
I suspect you are joshing. In fact I am convinced you are!! :winkgrin:
This business of God being one, or two are three has been around since who knows when. :rolleye:
Simple - God is one :bowing:
God the Father and Jesus Christ are One. :sohappy:
I have no problem at all with that, in fact, I said so myself. Now, let me
really blow your mind. Remember God making Adam? He breathed the Spirit of Life (one of the seven Spirits, yes?) into the body made of red clay/dirt/dust, and made a living soul. I'm sure all air-breathers were made alive the same way. God invested Himself in all living, breathing beings, by way of the Breath/Spirit of Life. Billions and billions of them.
I am convinced that God is multi-layered and multi-dimensional. Yet, those multiplicities are One. :dsunny:
I generally can fellowship with Christians on both sides of the fence.
Been in both groups.
Jesus is Lord on both groups.
:2c:
Quote from: ed on October 07, 2014, 06:45:02 AM
I generally can fellowship with Christians on both sides of the fence.
Been in both groups.
Jesus is Lord on both groups.
:2c:
Well, I get along with whoever gets along with me too, but besides the respecting others beliefs and such, I'm interested in knowing from all of you if you are of the same belief concerning the person of God, or if there is differences of understating within Universalists?
There are different understandings among people who believe in the salvation of all. I will try to find and post a thread here tomoro sometime where you can look over different views held among folks on TM.
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 07, 2014, 04:35:29 AM
Maybe it has already been asked, but I dare ask myself from each of you on this site. :dunno2:
Some are, and some aren't. I personally am not. That is a subject that has caused some tension here I think because folks have deep convictions about it. I don't mean to start any squabbling, but, since you asked, I think the Trinity is simply a doctrine established by the Roman Empire due to political expediency, but it dishonors the Father. I believe there is one God, the Father, who is the source of all, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all comes to us. I believe Christ was the word of God who came out of the Father and became flesh to walk among his chosen people, the Jews. The word God can be interpreted absolutely or relatively and means subjector or placer. So Christ can be said to be God relatively speaking because he is the word of God and the image of the invisible God, but he always honored the Father and said he came out of the Father. I believe the holy spirit is not a third person in a mythical godhead but the power of God that generated the Christ child in the virgin Mary, inspired the authors of scripture, and lives in us believers today. Many folks disagree with what I've said because even among those who believe in universal reconciliation there are some who are Trinitarians. This is my own personal perspective due to the way I interpret scripture.
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:5,6)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/index.html
The trinity is supposedly made up of 3 PERSONS, find in your Bible where the Holy Spirit or the Father is called a PERSON.
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie,...... :2c:
This thread takes a while to get going but there is a lot in there from various perspectives on the godhead doctrine.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/25/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/25/)
Quote from: Tom on October 07, 2014, 04:33:00 PM
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:5,6)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/index.html
Pretty cool scripture passage: ALL THINGS ARE
OUT OF THE FATHER, AND ALL THINGS ARE
THROUGH JESUS.
:Chinscratch:
THAT WOULD MAKE AN EXCELLENT NEW THREAD!
The same place I learned about Hell
is the same place where I learnt about the Trinity.
I am relearning everything allowing the Holy Spirit of God to teach.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 07, 2014, 06:55:29 PM
This thread takes a while to get going but there is a lot in there from various perspectives on the godhead doctrine.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/25/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/25/)
Thank you John :icon_flower: , I learned a lot from everyone on this long thread , things never considered before !!!! I miss Molly being here too ..... :flowerred:
Yes, even tho we disagreed on the godhead discussion, I miss Molly too.
Quote from: Tom on October 07, 2014, 04:06:52 PM
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 07, 2014, 04:35:29 AM
Maybe it has already been asked, but I dare ask myself from each of you on this site. :dunno2:
Some are, and some aren't. I personally am not. That is a subject that has caused some tension here I think because folks have deep convictions about it. I don't mean to start any squabbling, but, since you asked, I think the Trinity is simply a doctrine established by the Roman Empire due to political expediency, but it dishonors the Father. I believe there is one God, the Father, who is the source of all, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all comes to us. I believe Christ was the word of God who came out of the Father and became flesh to walk among his chosen people, the Jews. The word God can be interpreted absolutely or relatively and means subjector or placer. So Christ can be said to be God relatively speaking because he is the word of God and the image of the invisible God, but he always honored the Father and said he came out of the Father. I believe the holy spirit is not a third person in a mythical godhead but the power of God that generated the Christ child in the virgin Mary, inspired the authors of scripture, and lives in us believers today. Many folks disagree with what I've said because even among those who believe in universal reconciliation there are some who are Trinitarians. This is my own personal perspective due to the way I interpret scripture.
I take it that
you don't believe Jesus Christ to be God in the absolute? Because if you, then under the understanding that I'm getting from your post, is that we end up with two forms of God, and two Lords? Yes, no? :Chinscratch:
RaiderGonzo...... :Chinscratch:
Many books of learned scholars have beaten this horse to death with no conclusion that suits everyone. On a forum like this our ability to address these issues is limited by space and the purpose of the forum, which is to proclaim and teach from the scriptures the salvation of all through Jesus Christ.
I would like to suggest again, that if you are really serious about getting various perspectives on it, and what various UR believers believe about the godhead issue- go to the thread I posted above where, if you will take the time, you will find MUCH food for thought and reach your own conclusions as well :o)
Then, when you're done reading that, read this. http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/index.html
Quote from: eaglesway on October 08, 2014, 03:12:01 AM
Many books of learned scholars have beaten this horse to death with no conclusion that suits everyone. On a forum like this our ability to address these issues is limited by space and the purpose of the forum, which is to proclaim and teach from the scriptures the salvation of all through Jesus Christ.
I would like to suggest again, that if you are really serious about getting various perspectives on it, and what various UR believers believe about the godhead issue- go to the thread I posted above where, if you will take the time, you will find MUCH food for thought and reach your own conclusions as well :o)
Will do sir, thank you.
Frankly speaking, I don't know much about Universalists, so I do honestly seek answers to some theological questions; for I cannot simply trust in what Universalists say without knowing what it is they say, or where they stand on certain -for lack of a better term- issues.
I understand that,and you are wise not to just take anyones word on anything- but remember, the issues remain issues among us as Christ based, Bible based believrs in the salvation of all. We are not "Universalists in the sense that "anything goes". We disagree on many of the same issues other Christians disagree. Thing like "free-will" and "the Trinity" and "soul-sleep" etc, etc, etc. These "issues have been discussed and debated on the site and still are and will be.
What uniotes us is the SCRIPTURALLY BASED assurance that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was sufficient to provide for the salvation of every being ever created- THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST"S CROSS ALONE, incorporating faith in His resurrection and Lordship.
We believe that the scriptures teach that "every knee shall bow , whether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father- not to be cast into hell, but to eventually through the ages be subjected to Christ ubntil God is ALL IN ALL.
We may disagree on many of the other issues, because we have different perspectives and theological backgrounds. :o)
So you see, on some of these issues there is no simple answer as to what "we" believe. :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on October 08, 2014, 03:26:57 AM
I understand that,and you are wise not to just take anyones word on anything- but remember, the issues remain issues among us as Christ based, Bible based believrs in the salvation of all. We are not "Universalists in the sense that "anything goes". We disagree on many of the same issues other Christians disagree. Thing like "free-will" and "the Trinity" and "soul-sleep" etc, etc, etc. These "issues have been discussed and debated on the site and still are and will be.
What uniotes us is the SCRIPTURALLY BASED assurance that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was sufficient to provide for the salvation of every being ever created- THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST"S CROSS ALONE, incorporating faith in His resurrection and Lordship.
We believe that the scriptures teach that "every knee shall bow , whether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father- not to be cast into hell, but to eventually through the ages be subjected to Christ ubntil God is ALL IN ALL.
We may disagree on many of the other issues, because we have different perspectives and theological backgrounds. :o)
So you see, on some of these issues there is no simple answer as to what "we" believe. :o)
Yes, I see.
There was a question I have asked myself, others, and Christians as well, and that question has to do with -pardon my french- how in the hell is everyone going to have a fair shot during judgement day "if" they lived before Christ Jesus, or never really had a chance to grow up in a Christian country/environment, i.e, the Aztecs? The answer I believe the Lord has put in my mind and in my heart is the one you just gave, that THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST"S CROSS ALONE! Past, present and future, Amen!
I think you need to stop generalizing about what "universalists" believe. It's kind of like asking what Christians believe. From what I've seen there's been a wide variety of beliefs associated with Christianity throughout history, and the same is true for those you call "universalists" now. I just call myself a believer, and universal reconciliation just happens to be one of the things I believe because I think it is the truth of scripture.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
Quote from: Tom on October 08, 2014, 03:48:07 AM
I think you need to stop generalizing about what "universalists" believe. It's kind of like asking what Christians believe. From what I've seen there's been a wide variety of beliefs associated with Christianity throughout history, and the same is true for those you call "universalists" now. I just call myself a believer, and universal reconciliation just happens to be one of the things I believe because I think it is the truth of scripture.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, it was not my intent. I just have an inquiring mind and as I have already confessed, I don't know much about what universalism teaches.
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 08, 2014, 03:35:30 AM
[
Yes, I see.
There was a question I have asked myself, others, and Christians as well, and that question has to do with -pardon my french- how in the hell is everyone going to have a fair shot during judgement day "if" they lived before Christ Jesus, or never really had a chance to grow up in a Christian country/environment, i.e, the Aztecs? The answer I believe the Lord has put in my mind and in my heart is the one you just gave, that THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST"S CROSS ALONE! Past, present and future, Amen!
Yes! This is what the scriptures teach!
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times(through outworking of the ages) He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
"Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Rom 11 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Modify message
I hope your asking questions offends no one RG :o) I believe you are just searching.
Eaglesway, I must ask; How is justice served, if evil is not judged?
Evil is judged in many ways, in this life, and in the age to come. The salvation of all is not about the absence of judgment- it is about the eventual outcome of judgment being redemption.
If you read 1 Cor 15, you see that EVRY ADVERSARY will be subjected to Christ so that God may become ALL IN ALL. That subjection process will include intense correction for some. But the end of that correction is redemption, when the last knee bows(Phil 2:10) and the last adversaRY, death, is destroyed, then there will be only LIFE IN THE ALL IN ALL OF GOD. But notice, the last adversary IS DEATH. As long as there is death THERE IS JUDGMENT- but as the scripture says, MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT. THE LIGHT SHINES IN THE DARKNESS AND THE DARKNESS CANNOT OVERCOME IT. The end of all things is life for all- but many have incurred, in this life, heavy judgment, and there will be judgment in the age to come.
The thing is that the end of that judgment is the revelation of every hidden thing and the destruction of all darkness by light. Light is fire to darkness. Jesus said "EVRY THING THAT IS HIDDEN WILL BE BROUGHT TO LIGHT", and as you may know(we all do actually) the process of bringing our darkness into the light can be PAINFUL and sometimes it is DISCIPLINARY.
For this reason there is MUCH BENEFIT in repenting, and seeking life in the light- transparent before God and forgiven through Jesus Christ.
I am not a Universalist or Trinitarian. With that admitted I hope I will not be overlooked with my thoughts, reasons, and my opinions are welcome to surgery. :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 08, 2014, 04:53:03 AM
I am not a Universalist or Trinitarian. With that admitted I hope I will not be overlooked with my thoughts, reasons, and my opinions are welcome to surgery. :dsunny:
:thumbsup:
Raider, you're on the right track. Keep asking questions! :thumbsup:
NEVER STOP SEARCHING!
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 08, 2014, 03:57:03 AM
Quote from: Tom on October 08, 2014, 03:48:07 AM
I think you need to stop generalizing about what "universalists" believe. It's kind of like asking what Christians believe. From what I've seen there's been a wide variety of beliefs associated with Christianity throughout history, and the same is true for those you call "universalists" now. I just call myself a believer, and universal reconciliation just happens to be one of the things I believe because I think it is the truth of scripture.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, it was not my intent. I just have an inquiring mind and as I have already confessed, I don't know much about what universalism teaches.
I don't know how I missed this post, but I wasn't offended, bro. I don't know why you thought so. And I'm sorry if I caused you some confusion with the absolute vs. relative info in my previous post. I was just thinking about how some folks like to use the verse where Thomas calls Christ "God" as what they think is proof that he is. Scripture says Christ is the image of the invisible God. That is the visible expression of God just as he is also the spoken expression of God called the "word." If somebody that knows you sees a picture of you or hears a recording of you, they would say that is you, but it is actually just a visual or audible expression of you. I believe the same is true for Christ who always pointed toward the Father and prayed to the Father.
What I really believe is what scripture says, and that is that the invisible God was in Christ.
"God was in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:19)
But, if somebody is dead set on the Trinity, then I'd have to say that I guess all believers must be in the Trinity because of what scripture says again.
"I have given them the glory which Thou has given Me, that they may be one, according as We are One" (John 17:22)
Here's a link I just came across that gives you some history of how the Trinity was conjured up due to political expediency which had nothing to do with the truth of scripture.
http://www.ucg.org/booklet/god-trinity/surprising-origins-trinity-doctrine/
I'm not really familiar with any other doctrine of this organization. So I don't recommend them, but they seem to have some good info here similar to what I've read before. They just happened to be at the top of the links when I Googled "Trinity origin." There's plenty more info online similar to this. Every believer, including those who believe in universal reconciliation, has to decide which is more important, either scripture or church doctrine that was established by the Roman Empire. I think scripture is sufficient.
It's not my intention to poke the hornet's nest, but I just saw this post that caused me to think I should tell this brother that he didn't offend me. For future reference to all, I don't take things too seriously anymore even if somebody does try to offend me. I actually get amused when somebody does that because I think that person is most likely just puffed up because he is very impressed with himself, but I just think it's funny. We all have our own ideas about everything, and I'm not here to convert anybody, just to share what I think. I figure you can take it or leave it, but you don't need to get tense about it if you disagree because I figure your idea that I might disagree with is just your idea that you have a right to believe even if I think it's crazy. I think you should think I have the same right to believe what you might think is crazy. I'm always open to persuasion though if something different seems like it makes sense, but I'm kind of decided about church doctrine. So you would probably have to come up with something new I haven't heard before.
Anyway, I guess the bottom line here is not just about the Trinity, but don't generalize about folks who believe in universal reconciliation because we are just as diverse as the general public when it comes to opinions about anything, right?
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 07, 2014, 04:35:29 AM
Maybe it has already been asked, but I dare ask myself from each of you on this site. :dunno2:
Ronny to Raider:
I haven't read much on this part lately;but the best I remember,some who believe in UR are trinitarian and some aren't.
As for myself,I was brought up in a particular church being taught to believe by some people, that there was God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. God in 3 persons;but one God. So I don't know if that way of believing is right or not,since I was only taught to believe that way,by some people? And I pray that God will show me for sure,when it is my time to know and understand that.
What I do know for certain,is that God is my heavenly Father and Jesus Christ is my Saviour. The one who went to the cross for me and there,took all of my sins upon himself. And he Jesus,is the Christ,the Messiah,the Son of the living God.
And I was 40 years old,before God taught me to really question some things I was taught in church. That being when God taught me that I had the right to search the scriptures for myself,to see if some things were true or not and in that,to depend upon God to guide me and show me. But the latter,coming at the time of God's choosing.
Now since God freed me,I have noticed some scriptures in the Bible,that I haven't noticed before and or maybe noticed in some ways;but just skipped over? And over a number of years,I have noticed these things and what some other people have to say about them. One of these things I've noticed,is in Colossians 1:15,where it says Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God,the firstborn of all creation. And there is scripture like 1 John 2:1,where Jesus Christ is described as our parclete. And as best I understand it,that is the same Greek word that elsewhere in the scripture,is referred to as the Holy Spirit. And in John 10:33,35,I believe that is where some Pharisees of Jesus time here on earth, where they said he claimed himself to be God and they condemned him for that. And he answered them with a quote from Psalms 82:6,where he said it said something like, does not your own scripture,say that you are gods. So,I'm not going to try and make a big arguement,that Jesus Christ is God,the 2nd person of the Trinity. But will simply say, that I don't know or understand that for certain and I won't,until God shows me for sure,on this part. But as I've said,I do know that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God and he was the one who was on the cross for me,that taking my sins,upon himself. Now he did that,because he and the Father,loved/loves me just that much. :-) And he was not only there for me;but also for every person,from Adam on down. So,God loves us one and all :-) and Jesus Christ and the cross,is proof of that. And he was and is the Saviour who came to take away the sin of the world,the one who came,to seek and to save that which was lost. Well,that's everyone of us. And what he came to do,he has done or will do and when all is said and done,everyone of us will know that we are so greatly loved of God and we will be back in a right relationship with God! And not just a part of us;but all of us! :-)
Just thinking of somethings I've said above and how greatly I would be condemned for that,by some people I've known in the past and by some,in the present. For I was simply taught in church,to believe without question,everything that was taught there. So some people from my past,they would condemn me for my simply saying,I don't know for sure,on somethings they believed and taught as a sure and completely true thing. But then God has freed me from such people. Those who Jesus Christ had to go to the cross for,just as I had need for him to go there,for me and in my place.
And another thing I know for sure,everyone from Adam on down,we are all God's offspring,we are all God's children and God loves us all,more than we can ever humanly comprehend :-) and that proven,by way of Jesus Christ and the cross. Now some people of the past,they have known they are the much loved children of God and some people of the present,they know the same. Then some people,of both the past and present,they don't know that yet;but they will know and understand that and that at the exact time,that God chooses to reveal such,to each particular person! :-) And when they come to know that,they will then love God and that because,God has first loved them! :-)
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:6)
"For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus, Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:5)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/index.html
https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 08, 2014, 04:01:45 AM
Eaglesway, I must ask; How is justice served, if evil is not judged?
RG, I know this question was addressed to Eaglesway, but I'd like to say this:
God could have tossed all of us into Dante's Hell for our sins - it would have been His right. God could have reduced us all to ashes, for that would have been His right too. However, as He told us in His word, His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Instead of revenge, and "getting even," He made another Choice. Why would a creator God need to get even or to exact revenge anyway, as if He were a man?
No, and note this well, God's Justice was to send His Own Son to shed His blood and to die for us. Beyond that, I'm just speechless...
No, and note this well, God's Justice was to send His Own Son to shed His blood and to die for us. Beyond that, I'm just speechless...
enough said :iagree:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 30, 2014, 09:30:40 PM
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 08, 2014, 04:01:45 AM
Eaglesway, I must ask; How is justice served, if evil is not judged?
RG, I know this question was addressed to Eaglesway, but I'd like to say this:
God could have tossed all of us into Dante's Hell for our sins - it would have been His right. God could have reduced us all to ashes, for that would have been His right too. However, as He told us in His word, His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Instead of revenge, and "getting even," He made another Choice. Why would a creator God need to get even or to exact revenge anyway, as if He were a man?
No, and note this well, God's Justice was to send His Own Son to shed His blood and to die for us. Beyond that, I'm just speechless...
".....How is justice served, if evil is not judged?"
I do not know where you got that idea, the LoF IS the Judgement for the just and the unjust.
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. :2c:
I believe "the second death-the lake of fire" is for the "unjust" because believers will have eonian life.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Evil is always judged. It is discerned(separated), by the Sword of His mouth and the Flames in His eyes- bone and marrow, spirit and soul.
It is "brough to light"- it is written, Nothing is hidden that will not be brought to light".
Light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it. As Paul said, "Everything brought to light becomes light".
Sin is already judged through the death of Adam in every believer who is alive in Christ.
For those who reject the light in this age, with all those from all the ages whose consciences testify that their deeds were not wrought in God(Romans 2), all whose names are not written in the Lamb's book, evrything will be brought to light, in the lake of fire, in the age following the age to come.
I agree with Tom that the lake of fire is for the "unbelievers", the wicked of the ages. Those who believed will be washed in the blood of the lamb, their sins having been remitted already and Adam judged in their flesh through the cross of Christ.
I have said several times before that I think the lake of fire is a heavenly intervention, all beings penetrated by "unaproachable light" in the holy assembly in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus(Hebrews 12, Eph 2)- but of course that is just my opinion.
The light will be torment to them until they yield to the discernment/separation/judgment of God, confessing their sins(bow the knee) and praising God for the cross of Christ.
Should you not be the elect,in the first resurrection, you will be judged....the just and the unjust..... in the Lake of Fire which is the second death. :2c:
I think what you call "the elect" or "the just" meet Christ in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) a thousand years before what you call "the unjust" are judged before the great white throne and condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire."
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
I do not believe any "just" will be judged in the lake of fire. Only the unjust. :2c:
As I see it, all those from all the ages, everyone who is not in the first resurrection, from Adam to the last person to die in the millenial reign, will be judged at the Great White Throne.
The just will enter the reconciliation at that time, the unjust will enter kolassis, until they bow the knee and are subjected to the Lordship an unity of Christ.
Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
So from what I have gathered the "just" and the "elect/chosen" are equally the same?
I believe when Jesus said, "many are called but few are chosen" I see the many as the just. I believe the elect/chosen are the few.
I understand the Lake of Fire to be the ultimate refining fire of purification.
I see in the verses below as a very special time, I do not see the "just or the many" I see an ELECT/CHOSEN :2c:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
So if there is a "first" resurrection, there must be another. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." sounds to me like the "second death"[the LoF] could be that "another?" again my :2c:
"The just will enter the reconciliation at that time..." so there is no decisions [judgments]made in this reconciliation?
Noah was a "just" man, yet he was not and could not be "in Christ."
Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
If the above be true, then the "just" most certainly will be judged. :2c:
Gotta run to the bank running out of change :dsunny:
In my opinion, if the just are to be in the lake of fire, then they weren't really just. They were most likely having their own righteousness. If we look at the parable of the sheep and goats, to me the description of the goats epitomizes who is in the LOF. Same with the description of who is "outside" the gates.
I believe it was clarified that it's not a IN the fire situation. There is to be a judgment, now my :2c: is that the elect/chosen are being judged now...for those who have ears to hear, by FIRE.
1Pe 4:17 because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?
That judgment is FIRE, my :2c: is that all judgment is FIRE. The L of F is the FINAL judgment by FIRE. This is all a spiritual work.
Joh 5:29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.
I agree but but I think the fire for the LOF is for destruction not for building faith. For me, the "just" if they are to be in the lake of fire, are actually "ungodly men" who Peter said were reserved for destruction. I agree that fire is a symbol of judgement, but I would say also that not all judgments take the same form. Some fire is representative of Grace, and some for resistance of the proud.
Quote from: Seth on October 31, 2014, 06:10:30 PM
I agree but but I think the fire for the LOF is for destruction not for building faith. For me, the "just" if they are to be in the lake of fire, are actually "ungodly men" who Peter said were reserved for destruction. I agree that fire is a symbol of judgement, but I would say also that not all judgments take the same form. Some fire is representative of Grace, and some for resistance of the proud.
Yes, I agree, ".....the fire for the LOF is for destruction not for building faith."
I can almost also agree, ".... the "just" if they are to be in the lake of fire, are actually "ungodly men" the "just" I believe are yet carnal, and that carnality will be burned up.
Yes, " but my :2c: would read, ....fire is representative of Grace, and it is the proud who resist the fire.
Probably there is confusion or disagreement about what the "just" means, because I agree with you about the "yet carnal." Just is translated from a word that means "righteous" so when I see the word "just" I think about that scripture you quoted from John: "those who did good" as opposed to those who "practiced the evil things." I would consider the former to be the just/righteous and the latter to be the unjust/unrighteous.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2014, 05:23:41 PM
So from what I have gathered the "just" and the "elect/chosen" are equally the same?
I believe when Jesus said, "many are called but few are chosen" I see the many as the just. I believe the elect/chosen are the few.
I understand the Lake of Fire to be the ultimate refining fire of purification.
I see in the verses below as a very special time, I do not see the "just or the many" I see an ELECT/CHOSEN :2c:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
So if there is a "first" resurrection, there must be another. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." sounds to me like the "second death"[the LoF] could be that "another?" again my :2c:
"The just will enter the reconciliation at that time..." so there is no decisions [judgments]made in this reconciliation?
Noah was a "just" man, yet he was not and could not be "in Christ."
Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
If the above be true, then the "just" most certainly will be judged. :2c:
Gotta run to the bank running out of change :dsunny:
I think there is some confusion about the judgment of the nations and the judgment of individuals before the great white throne. I think those who died before Christ are not in the body of Christ, the chosen ecclesia, who meet him in the air when we're snatched away to be saved, from the coming indignation, for eonian life to minister in the celestial realm, who are mostly those of us of the nations with some Jews such as Paul and his companions. I think the judgment of the nations, figuratively the sheep and the goats (kids), as to whether they were friends or adversaries of Israel, will come at the beginning of the millennium, and the adversarial nations will be subjected to "chastening eonian" (kolasin aionion) figuratively with "fire eonian." I think the judgment for individual unbelievers before the great white throne will take place at the end of the millennium when they will be condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire." I know this has been mentioned before, but I don't think "chastening eonian" applies to "the second death-the lake of fire" because mortals condemned to it will be dead, and scripture only says the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons, which indicates they must be supernatural creatures not subject to death. Scripture says souls die (Ezekiel 18:4,20), and the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So I don't see anybody being chastened in "the lake of fire" except those creatures not subject to death.
"Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory, and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids. And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left. "Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world. For I hunger and you give Me to eat; I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in; naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.' "Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink? Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee? Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?' "And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.' "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the adversary and his messengers. For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink; a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.' "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?' "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.' And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (Matthew 25:31-46)
I think the information under the chart on the following webpage gives a good explanation of who, why, and when the "just" are judged.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: Seth on October 31, 2014, 07:21:52 PM
Probably there is confusion or disagreement about what the "just" means, because I agree with you about the "yet carnal." Just is translated from a word that means "righteous" so when I see the word "just" I think about that scripture you quoted from John: "those who did good" as opposed to those who "practiced the evil things." I would consider the former to be the just/righteous and the latter to be the unjust/unrighteous.
Ill agree, still the "just" are yet carnal, as long as one is carnal there will be or is to judgment. I believe the elect/chosen are yet carnal but/and are being judged now, and will be in the first resurrection. As I said Noah was a just man and there were many just men in the OT.
I find the Trinity to be a most confusing idea. :dontknow:
Who doesn't?
Quote from: Eduard on October 31, 2014, 08:30:28 PM
I find the Trinity to be a most confusing idea. :dontknow:
Not really, the trinity teaching is " 3 persons" in 1. Where in the Bible do you find the Holy Spirit addressed as a "person"?
Nowhere, and it doesn't say the Father is a person either. I think the Trinity is just the Roman Empire's version of political correctness when you've got a bunch of pagans living with a bunch of Christians, but it sure messed up this idea.
"Jesus answered him that "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord."" (Mark 12:29)
"Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One." (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Quote from: Tom on October 31, 2014, 08:54:46 PM
"Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One." (Deuteronomy 6:4)
:thumbsup: :iagree:
Amen, brother. Even though Yahweh, the Elohim of the Hebrews, has morphed into the three headed god of the Roman pagans for the church, I myself prefer Yahweh, even though I'm not Hebrew, but that's just another crazy thing about the church I disagree with.
I am not trinitarian, but the verse used to imply that the Holy Spirit is a person is,
John 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
In my opinion this scripture clearly identifies the Holy Spirit as Messiah-
"But you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you".
It was Jesus who was abiding with them. It is "Christ in you, the hope of glory". The relationship of Jesus and the Father within the Holy Spirit is a bit more complex than I want to get into- not saying I fully understand it either.
I really don't have so much trouble with the concept of the trinity- until it comes to the "co-equal" part of "co-equal, co-substantial, co-eternal"- and calling anyone who doesnt see that as heretical and bound for "hell" :laughing7:
None of the prevailing views fully explains the mystery of the godhead for me.
Eaglesway,
I agree because look at the next verse
John 14
18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
I see the preceding verses as Christ speaking about himself in the third person as he did when he called himself the Son of Man.
Yes. I see it that way too.
It's funny, because each of the main positions, all of which I have studied intensely over years, draws a hard line some place that seems to exclude certain verses.
Trinitarianism
Modalism
Bi-nitarianism
Biblical untiarianism
All of them want to "expalin" something in concrete terms, when there may not be(imo isnt) a concrete doctrine. God is spirit. Those who seek Him must seek Him in spirit and truth. I love to discuss it. I hate to debate it :o)
When I do debate it, I am always playing devil's advocate against the hard-lines of all of them, because I don't think any of them is 100% right.
my main objection to each.
Trinitarianism -Insist that the Father and the son are co-equal(Iam sure they are not) and co-eternal(I am not sure whether they are or not)
Modalism -Insist their is no separate identity between the Father and the Son( I am sure there is), saying Jesus is the Father.
Bi-nitarianism -Insist on co-equal and co-eternal also, like Trinitarianism in all respects excepting they do not attribute a third co-equal person for the Spirit, but see the Spirit as the union of the Father and Son, or as, "the Father through the Son"(I agree with their view on the Spirit as God in/through Christ)
Biblical Untitarianism - Insist Jesus did not pre-exist His birth( I am sure He did, altho I do not fully understand the nature of that existence, having studied all the positions and finding none completely satisfying)
Yeah, :iagree:
There is an aspect to God's nature that we just cannot understand as physical beings and I don't think we will understand until it's time. I lean toward the idea that Jesus was created before his physical birth, and descended into the flesh, and that his Father created him. I believe his is God but in the sense that scripture says that "he thought it not robbery to be considered equal with God" (Phil 2:6). I believe there are two, the Father and the Son, and that the Father is over the Son, but that the Son has been given authority to be considered equal, and that they are joined by the spirit. Not sure what name that has but it's my current understanding.
Quote from: Seth on November 01, 2014, 06:59:45 AM
Yeah, :iagree:
There is an aspect to God's nature that we just cannot understand as physical beings and I don't think we will understand until it's time. I lean toward the idea that Jesus was created before his physical birth, and descended into the flesh, and that his Father created him. I believe his is God but in the sense that scripture says that "he thought it not robbery to be considered equal with God" (Phil 2:6). I believe there are two, the Father and the Son, and that the Father is over the Son, but that the Son has been given authority to be considered equal, and that they are joined by the spirit. Not sure what name that has but it's my current understanding.
That is also exactly my current understanding.
You could call it, Non Co-equal and Co-eternal Unitarian Binitarianism :banana:
:laughing7:
As soon as I can pronounce it
Truly tho, the one thing I cannot understand is how anyone thinks they can get around the Shema.
Shema Yisrael Adonai eloheinu Adonai ehad (Deut 6:4)
I believe Yahweh Elohim, the Father, is the source of all (Genesis 1:1), "the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11), and the goal of all (1 Corinthians 15:28). Yehshua HaMashiach, Jesus Christ, is "the only-begotten son of God" (John 3:18) and "The Word of God" (Revelation 19:13) "Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature" (Colossians 1:15); who died for the sins of "the whole world" (1 John 2:2); "was roused from among the dead by the glory of the Father" (Romans 6:4); and sits at the Father's "right hand" in heaven (Matthew 26:24; Mark 14:62, 16:19; Luke 22:69). The "holy spirit" is not a mythical third "person" in a triune godhead. The word "holy" from the Hebrew "quodesh" and the Greek "hagion" means "set apart." The word "spirit" from the Hebrew "ruach" and the Greek "pneuma," literally "blow-effect," is by implication the imperceptible power of life. The holy spirit is the power of God that generated the Christ child in the virgin Mary (Matthew 1:18), inspired the authors of the scriptures (2 Peter 1:21), and lives in us believers (1 Corinthians 3:16). Christ or Peter or Paul never taught the doctrine of the Trinity. The Roman Empire established the doctrine of the Trinity for the sake of political expediency long after the scriptures were already the doctrine of believers. Words were added to 1 John 5:7 in Latin manuscripts in an attempt to verify the Trinity, but that deception has been discredited by earlier Greek manuscripts which do not contain that adulterated verse. Nowhere in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures does it say that the Father is a "person" co-equal with his son and his holy spirit. The Trinity is simply the philosophy of man, and it dishonors the Father. The ancient Jews differed from the other nations by believing in one God. Despite the fact that Trinitarians claim they also do, the Trinity originated from pagan polytheism. The Trinity does not represent the God of the Hebrews, and it should not represent the God of Christians. "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29) "For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:5,6) "Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only." (Matthew 24:36) "I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am leaving the world and am going to the Father." (John 16:28) "For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5) "He came out from God" (John 13:3) "I came out from God" (John 16:27) "I came out from the Father" (John 16:28) "You hear that I said to you, 'I am going, and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28) "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God." (John 20:17) An accurate translation of scripture says nothing of the Trinity despite the fact that it is church doctrine. Scripture is sufficient.
Nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to or called a "trinity."
The word "three" is never used in reference to Who or What God is.
God is never called or referred to as "a person."
The holy spirit is never called "God."
Since Christ is the Son, He cannot also be the Father or be coequal with His Father. Christ plainly said:
"My Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).
I think the word "form" in Philippians 2:6 refers to how it is said that Christ was "equal with God" as "the image of God," the visible representation of the Father, appearing as blinding light to Saul on the road to Damascus. I think the word "empties" refers to the changing of "form" so the celestial glory was not visible to human sight.
"Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God, nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity" (Philippians 2:6,7)
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Amen
Trinitarianism
Modalism
Bi-nitarianism
Biblical untiarianism
These above where reason believers where put to death by other believers.
Very dark days back then.
Yeah, it's crazy that folks used to get killed for what we discuss on this forum, but I think that's because the Roman Empire really didn't care about scripture, just worldly power.
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself.""
The whole thing about heresy was just political suppression of those who disagreed with the church that was used to maintain the power of the secular government.
"we may by no means still be minors, surging hither and thither and being carried about by every wind of teaching, by human caprice, by craftiness with a view to the systematizing of the deception" (Ephesians 4:14)
That's why I think the church is just the remnant of the religious arm of the Roman Empire that controls its followers with fear of torture in fire forever. It really is an honor to be called a heretic because the church is actually guilty of what it's accusing others by not conforming to the word of God while we do.
The Roman Empire always controlled the common people through religion. It just switched from one religion to another, the second being super-imposed over the first. Empires are always built upon religion. How else to justify the wholesale slaughter of other human beings? Most societies throughout the ages have been manipulated by religion. Even the Soviet Empire was built on religion, the religion of Communism. Secular Humanism is the new religion of our day. If we do not sense the quickly rising tide of "doctrines" that you better not contradict on pain of prison or death (speaking against homosexuality for instance).
The new god who does not judge or discern the wickedness and arrogance of men has many names, shapeshifting into anything from a pan-theistic glob of goo that tis as corrosive and all-consuming as The Blob, or a narrow and horrific judge like Allah, or an amorphous connection between all humanity(excluding Christ) or a Jesus in name only bearing none of the attributes of the divine nature and requiring no sacrifice but that of the law and the carved out idols of systematic theology and doctrines of devils.
Since the beginning there have only been a few, here and there, seeking to know Him as He is, the I AM, YHWH, the one true invisible God and His Messiah, the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation of His image.
Nevertheless, His mercy reigns over the sons of men :o)
22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Has anyone noticed that the trinity doctrine is but a "theory?"
When you have no fear of getting it wrong you can't be controlled .
I am free to find the truth the wrong way.
Jesus is the truth.
At that time, if someone says to you, 'Look! Here's the Messiah!' or, 'There he is!' don't believe him. 24 For there will appear false Messiahs and false prophets performing great miracles — amazing things! — so as to fool even the chosen, if possible.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 01, 2014, 09:02:36 PM
The Roman Empire always controlled the common people through religion. It just switched from one religion to another, the second being super-imposed over the first. Empires are always built upon religion. How else to justify the wholesale slaughter of other human beings? Most societies throughout the ages have been manipulated by religion. Even the Soviet Empire was built on religion, the religion of Communism. Secular Humanism is the new religion of our day. If we do not sense the quickly rising tide of "doctrines" that you better not contradict on pain of prison or death (speaking against homosexuality for instance).
The new god who does not judge or discern the wickedness and arrogance of men has many names, shapeshifting into anything from a pan-theistic glob of goo that tis as corrosive and all-consuming as The Blob, or a narrow and horrific judge like Allah, or an amorphous connection between all humanity(excluding Christ) or a Jesus in name only bearing none of the attributes of the divine nature and requiring no sacrifice but that of the law and the carved out idols of systematic theology and doctrines of devils.
Since the beginning there have only been a few, here and there, seeking to know Him as He is, the I AM, YHWH, the one true invisible God and His Messiah, the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation of His image.
Nevertheless, His mercy reigns over the sons of men :o)
22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Amen, brother, but you know you're dating yourself with "The Blob" though, right?
LOL yup :o)
Wow, well this is curious. Usually when websites have FAQs they are places where people who want information come to get definitive answers on of the website actually stands for. It's more than a little unusual. But it's also very fair and conducive to discussion.
Anyway, I once made the mistake of playing Devil's Advocate for 'Christian's' who reject the Godhead and deny the divinity of Jesus because I happened to have read about the fact that there are some that do a few days before and I thought it fair to represent their views at the time. I wasn't pertinent and I wish I had because I consider it blasphemous so I want to try to correct that error by defending the Trinity to best of my limited ability now.
So if you want to build a case for the doctrine of the Trinity where is the best place to start? Well, to me, it's the Gospel according to John which opens:
John 1:1-3, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God.
He was in the beginning with God;
All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
Now I was of the impression that we're meant to understand that the Word in flesh is Jesus, that's seems to me a pretty reasonable reading and it clearly says that the Word is God. Therefore, you would imagine, it seems to clearly say Jesus is God.
It also says, as if more clarification were needed:
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
The relationship between God and Jesus as being indistinguishable is developed very consistently in St John's Gospel. Though in the interests of disclosure there appear to be recently discovered manuscripts of John 1:18 in which it's rather more clear about the fact that Jesus is God than others. Several modern translations tend to be a blend of both sentiments and don't really, necessarily accurately represent either. Which I consider unhelpful.
So, Jesus is God, yet not God given how He talks about the Father and his relationship to Him throughout John's Gospel. What about the Holy Spirit. Well, in the big theological announcement in John 14 where Jesus declares, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me. If you had known me you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him." (John 14:6-7) he also speaks of the Holy Spirit. If the above isn't convincing that Jesus is God when he seems to say that he is you're not likely to accept the next argument either but if you do than you should also accept that when Jesus says, "And I will pray to the Father and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him or knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)
Now, Jesus has just declared He is God, declared that to know Him is to know God and that He is the truth. So, logically, the Spirit of truth is, somehow his Spirit, yes, which can also be identified with God who the world does know but the disciples do we are taught. "But the counselor, the Holy Spirit who the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (John 14:26)
So, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, who is the Spirit of Jesus, who is God, yes? Well it seems to follow. The whole passage seems to unfold to teach that these beings are all God and God wants express Himself to us this way for His own purposes.
However, I agree with EW that this does not show that all parts of the Trinity are co-eternal, although John 1 certainly suggests they must be, it does not show they are co-equal, which the language of Jesus in how He talks about the Father in relation to Him would seem to contradict, and I can't say whether it shows they're co-substantial because I have no idea what that's supposed to mean although Jesus seems to imply in this chance they have some sort of similar substance.
It's pretty clear that the Trinity is not simply a concept invented by the church, it has clear Biblical support it's determining the genuine level of distinction, whatever that my be between the three persons of the Godhead that is tricky.
There is also a rather strange question asked in the thread "where in the scripture does it say the Father is a person?" Where how about everywhere. You don't need to say that your natural mother, father, sister, brother is a person to make it true. "Let us make man in our image and after our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26).
The entire concept of our faith proceeds on the presumption that God is a person, of sorts, attempting to restore a lost relationship with His children. The Bible doesn't need to specifically identify each member of the Godhead as a person for it to be true. Either God is a person or He isn't and the whole narrative of the Bible says He is.
But there's one other question EW asked, one thing more that he believed needed explaining; the Shema:
"Hear, O Isreal, YHWH our God: YHWH is one! (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Your point being. This isn't really the most natural way of saying YHWH is the only God although sometimes it can be translated that way, the word "one" here does mean "one" but it also appears in expressions like "one flesh" when clearly two fleshes are involved but put into a single union yet, obviously, they remain to some degree separate fleshes. So the Shema doesn't necessarily have the weight in might initially seem to.
But wait! That's not actually the Shema, that's only half the Shema. The full Shema reads:
Hear, O Isreal, YHWH our God: YHWH is one! And you shall love YWHW your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)
See that, God demands complete threefold love from His people here and instructs them to give it all to Him. Is it possible that this is to, in some sense, justly reflect the love God gives us from His threefold being?
Just a weak theory of mine.
Bless your heart CST ,
Did you by chance check the link EW shared on page 2 ,
The link has 34 pages and been a deep and wide discussion,
and believe everyone is resting in hope , faith , hope and Love
CST said ,
QuoteHear, O Isreal, YHWH our God: YHWH is one! And you shall love YWHW your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)
See that, God demands complete threefold love from His people here and instructs them to give it all to Him. Is it possible that this is to, in some sense, justly reflect the love God gives us from His threefold being?
Just a weak theory of mine.
God gives us a new heart with the law of love working though them laws and the soul is a being , life we loose ours for His Life and for His sake , and He is our strength .
God has got it all covered , we just need to learn to comply fully .
I checked it, I scanned it. As far as I could see EW was still making his claims about the Shema that were unresolved in the thread so far as I could tell. It could be that someone has responded elsewhere but so far I've only opened up two posting sections for myself. Ideally I'd wait until I'd read every thread so I know what has and hasn't been said but unfortunately if I did that I'd never get anything posted.
I have to decide what I do respond top in each of the threads I've opened and what I leave for later and this board is called FAQs so it seems like a kind of go to place that newbies might come for information about aspects of our belief. I felt it quite important that there's some sort of resolution on our position on what I'm unclear on except that it's likely very important and, in some sense true that there is some sort of Trinity even if it's just some sort of language form.
I'll talk more about my personal thought later if there's time and interest, the above are my thoughts on what the Bible seems to say.
Quote from: CST on March 23, 2016, 02:58:35 PM
...this board is called FAQs so it seems like a kind of go to place that newbies might come for information about aspects of our belief. I felt it quite important that there's some sort of resolution on our position...
There are countless things that "we" don't have a resolved position on, both as Christians and as Universalists. Free will, the nature of Satan, God's role in evil, the Trinity, age and type of baptism, prophecy, interpretation of scriptures like Revelation, whether some stories are historically true or metaphorical, the age of the earth, how all will be reconciled, the purpose of the LOF and who will be in it...the list goes on.
I think, in my humble opinion, God spelled out a few things clearly and the rest is not for us to understand 100% YET and that is okay.
There are thousands of Christian denominations that think they have it all right. There are other non Christian religions as well. The likelihood is that NONE are 100% right to show that only God is perfect and even in our attempts to follow Him we falter and it is Him who helps us back up and shows us the Way.
I am ok not knowing the true nature of the Trinity. I lean toward a certain view but I could and likely am wrong.
Just my :2c:
One biggie that we can agree on:
Love God and love others.
His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Jesus points to the father and draws all men to Him.
The Holy Spirit guides us.
The actual nature of it all is a mystery and scriptural support for a variety of different beliefs exists because they pick and choose verses to fit their belief.
Yeah, although this this page has run for four pages doing that now which I feel causes more confusion than it solves in a section called FAQs.
I also feel saying we're satisfied not knowing (though I concede I'm not the most clear on this) leans a little too closely to the "Universalism says God will save everyone, so why do we need to make serious decisions on anything?" position too many opponents of UR would happily use to try and undermine our argument?
I avoided this thread for a couple of days :laughing7: while it was coming up on the list..
..I don't want to get into trouble.. (I'm mostly kidding of course.. sort of..)
I used to be a little confused about this.. until I realized there are two.. The Father and the Son.. But I also believe they are one.. just not, the same.. as in one individual.. and I feel scripture suggests this very strongly. That they are two.
But I also think they are one.. (all this just my :2c: of course) in the sense that Jesus is the only straight out from Him one. I believe, and usually duck if I say this, that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, meaning , in the beginning God.. undifferentiated.. the Father.. Then there was the Father and the Son.. Only Begotten - "this day have I revealed Thee" (ps.2) - only straight out from Him One.. So close as to share substance and essence, and to both administer the Holy Spirit, which I think of as the Presence of God (with us..)
Jesus prayed we would be one as they are one.. This topic like a few others Christianity has, I sometimes think the 'sides' just don't really hear what the other 'side' is saying.. Or like with a lot of things, the truth lies closest somewhere in the middle of the two poles.. :dontknow: :2c:
Quote from: marie glen on March 23, 2016, 08:24:16 PM
I avoided this thread for a couple of days :laughing7: while it was coming up on the list..
..I don't want to get into trouble.. (I'm mostly kidding of course.. sort of..)
I used to be a little confused about this.. until I realized there are two.. The Father and the Son.. But I also believe they are one.. just not, the same.. as in one individual.. and I feel scripture suggests this very strongly. That they are two.
But I also think they are one.. (all this just my :2c: of course) in the sense that Jesus is the only straight out from Him one. I believe, and usually duck if I say this, that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, meaning , in the beginning God.. undifferentiated.. the Father.. Then there was the Father and the Son.. Only Begotten - "this day have I revealed Thee" (ps.2) - only straight out from Him One.. So close as to share substance and essence, and to both administer the Holy Spirit, which I think of as the Presence of God (with us..)
Jesus prayed we would be one as they are one.. This topic like a few others Christianity has, I sometimes think the 'sides' just don't really hear what the other 'side' is saying.. Or like with a lot of things, the truth lies closest somewhere in the middle of the two poles.. :dontknow: :2c:
This is somewhat what I believe, nicely put :thumbsup:
Quote from: GodIsLove on March 23, 2016, 11:14:30 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 23, 2016, 08:24:16 PM
I avoided this thread for a couple of days :laughing7: while it was coming up on the list..
..I don't want to get into trouble.. (I'm mostly kidding of course.. sort of..)
I used to be a little confused about this.. until I realized there are two.. The Father and the Son.. But I also believe they are one.. just not, the same.. as in one individual.. and I feel scripture suggests this very strongly. That they are two.
But I also think they are one.. (all this just my :2c: of course) in the sense that Jesus is the only straight out from Him one. I believe, and usually duck if I say this, that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, meaning , in the beginning God.. undifferentiated.. the Father.. Then there was the Father and the Son.. Only Begotten - "this day have I revealed Thee" (ps.2) - only straight out from Him One.. So close as to share substance and essence, and to both administer the Holy Spirit, which I think of as the Presence of God (with us..)
Jesus prayed we would be one as they are one.. This topic like a few others Christianity has, I sometimes think the 'sides' just don't really hear what the other 'side' is saying.. Or like with a lot of things, the truth lies closest somewhere in the middle of the two poles.. :dontknow: :2c:
This is somewhat what I believe, nicely put :thumbsup:
I agree well said sista Marie! I too only thing different for me is the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of truth [ GOD the FATHER ] & word of Truth all in [Jesus Christ ] and all that is gathered up with Them seven eyes being the seven Spirits of God angels cloud of witnesses etc . as ONE
The Lord says the true worshipper shall worship Him in Spirit and truth and the God be all in all in the end what come out will also return to Him and not be void or empty BUT FULL , HE IS THE LIVING GOD .... in Christ is still the Lord of the dead and the living .. That all death ends in Christ and as in the beginning was all creation made by HIS WORD going forth / JESUS CHRIST so shall the end be In adam all die and in Christ shall be made alive .
All things in Christ and Christ is Gods and God be all in all Col 1
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things,
and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything....
1Cor 15 ;28 The Order of Resurrection
...27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Eph 4 ;6 Unity in the Body
...5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7But to each one of us grace was given according to the
measure of Christ's gift....
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?
Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
1 Corinthians 12:6
There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
For they are all so wonderful to consider and think upon
I have stated before on this Forum, I am a trinitarian. I believe that God the Father, Jesus, His Son, and the Holy Spirit, are all united under one God, with unique rolls, just as we are all united in the body of Christ, His Church ( in a broad sense ) with individual gifts. It is not the equality of roles or a hierarchy that unites us, in the Body of Christ, or the persons in one God, or whatever you care to call the union, but rather the love, the intertwining of commitment and purpose, and the goal of oneness and Salvation for all of mankind. It is the RELATIONSHIP that bonds, I believe, and the ability to know each other and be united by bonds that are far deeper than we are able to really have or understand on earth. And, in a parallel way, it is the same for God. But God, of course, being omnipotent, knows exactly how this interplay between the Father, Son and Spirit occurs.
That being said, however, I don't believe we are able to fathom the complex interplay of the Body of Christ or of our God, in this realm. One day, we will understand, and the veil will be lifted, but for now, we will have to each have our vision of God, and aim to seek the truth, to the best of our ability......as limited as that is, I believe.
So, hash it out, as we will and do......it is interesting to know different perspectives, and look at it from other's viewpoints, but, ultimately, I believe we will have to wait for Heaven, to ever truly come close to understanding this......and then we will look at one another, and smile, and say, "But, of course.....how did we not see this while on earth?" and go on from there. IMO.
:2c:
D. :girlheart:
I.M.O seems to come to one observation.
We are made in their image. Gen 1;26
My dad was the one from whom I sprouted.
When we are one we are in perfect agreement about everything.
Two individuals as one.
Our heavenly Father is greater than our dads of this age.
Christ said "not my will but Yours".
God said, " this is My beloved Son."
An army becomes one when they are working together for a common objective. Many people, but one army.
A business runs most efficiently when everyone is in agreement about procedure, ethics, rules, etc. ergo as one.
A church as one is a powerful place.
Suggesting the term " As One" means total unity, agreement in every regard.
What I find beautiful is that by scripture we know CHRIST DIED FOR ALL MANKIND ! not just a chosen few .
and the WORD OF LIFE proves to us , Christ is dead in them or Alive in them , but CHRIST IS THERE to be lifted up or has been ''lifted up '' in you NOW !!
Being the Spirit and Word of truth , this simple and complex truth .
But can we believe it with all our mind and heart and strength ! faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is blowing /saying upon all flesh as the miracle of birth , born again comes into being !
Acts 17 23 Now as I was going along and carefully looking at your objects of worship,
I came to an altar with this inscription: 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you already worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.
24 The God who created the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;[You are that temple of the living God ]
25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, because it is He who gives to all [people] life and breath and all things.
26 And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands and territories.
27 This was so that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grasp for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.
28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being], as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
29 So then, being God's children, we should not think that the Divine Nature (deity) is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination or skill of man.
30 Therefore God overlooked and disregarded the former ages of ignorance; but now He commands all people everywhere to repent [that is, to change their old way of thinking, to regret their past sins, and to seek God's purpose for their lives]
, 31 because He has set a day when He will judge the inhabited world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed and destined for that task,
and He has provided credible proof to everyone by raising Him from the dead."
We are now at this point to call no man common , unholy or unclean CHRIST IS IN THERE DEAD OR ALIVE , CHRIST IS THERE ...
aActs 10 27As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled.
28And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him;
and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.
It is how we treat one another is exactly how we treat the Lord JESUS CHRIST and to LIFT HIM UP to draw all men unto Him ...
Christ in you the hope of glory to GOD that be all in all !!
Quote from: marie glen on March 23, 2016, 08:24:16 PM
I avoided this thread for a couple of days :laughing7: while it was coming up on the list..
..I don't want to get into trouble.. (I'm mostly kidding of course.. sort of..)
I used to be a little confused about this.. until I realized there are two.. The Father and the Son.. But I also believe they are one.. just not, the same.. as in one individual.. and I feel scripture suggests this very strongly. That they are two.
But I also think they are one.. (all this just my :2c: of course) in the sense that Jesus is the only straight out from Him one. I believe, and usually duck if I say this, that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, meaning , in the beginning God.. undifferentiated.. the Father.. Then there was the Father and the Son.. Only Begotten - "this day have I revealed Thee" (ps.2) - only straight out from Him One.. So close as to share substance and essence, and to both administer the Holy Spirit, which I think of as the Presence of God (with us..)
Jesus prayed we would be one as they are one.. This topic like a few others Christianity has, I sometimes think the 'sides' just don't really hear what the other 'side' is saying.. Or like with a lot of things, the truth lies closest somewhere in the middle of the two poles.. :dontknow: :2c:
:laugh: Ah, Marie. You seem incredibly unsure and confused about this. Maybe because, like me, you struggle to get you logic loving mind around the concept of a God who is only God but is also comprised of three... something. Modes or persons or facets or, I don't know. Not parts though, God can't be broken down into parts. God cannot be divided.
Why do you, kind of think you might get into trouble for stating you view? Do you think you might get into trouble with other forum members, other church members, with God?
In more general term I like the direction the thread has suddenly taken. It's turned into this really optimistic thread full of nice, positive comments about unity. I like it. :dsunny: I like many of the views expressed too although I don't think it's possible to agree with all of them.
I'll try and post my own tentative view of the Trinity, or at least some of it. As soon as I find more time.
If anyone has time, and is so inclined, I think this very insightful.
Not saying anyone needs to agree with it....or me......but, I definitely think it is worth a listen.
https://youtu.be/qPVf-exCgEo
C.S. Lewis, Beyond Personality, from Mere Christianity.
By one of my favorite theologians, C.S.Lewis.
I will warn you, it is very long, but you can listen in parts if you like, of course.
:2c:
D.
I read Mere Christianity right up until Lewis' treatise of the Lord's Prayer and then fast went off him.
I don't remember that, CST.
No one has it all right......no one I met yet, anyway. :JCThink:
C.S. Is not a Christian Universalist, but I do think he is able to discern and
explain many spiritual concepts well. I started reading him when I was 21......a long time ago.
I realize many of my thoughts on faith come from him.
But we each need to take our own journeys.
And find our own mentors and 'wise counsel'.
Blessings on your journey!
D.
Quote from: CST on March 24, 2016, 03:57:58 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 23, 2016, 08:24:16 PM
I avoided this thread for a couple of days :laughing7: while it was coming up on the list..
..I don't want to get into trouble.. (I'm mostly kidding of course.. sort of..)
Jesus prayed we would be one as they are one.. This topic like a few others Christianity has, I sometimes think the 'sides' just don't really hear what the other 'side' is saying.. Or like with a lot of things, the truth lies closest somewhere in the middle of the two poles.. :dontknow: :2c:
:laugh:
Why do you, kind of think you might get into trouble for stating you view? Do you think you might get into trouble with other forum members, other church members, with God?
Not likely "in trouble" here, on
this forum.. but this is one of the most 'volatile' of Christian topics! I'm not really sure why.. :dontknow: If i remember right, I believe they even had a war about this early on.. they forgot to love their 'enemies', er, brethren..
It was confusing, to me, about trinity for a while... when praying! I didn't know if I should address my prayers to the Father (like it seemed to me Jesus said to do) or to the Lord Jesus, which at the time felt the more natural and comfortable.. And even though I felt I had 'met' God before learning about Jesus.. (they occurred closely together, but not quite). I don't remember how the clouds cleared but somehow I began to realize, or that is sense and feel the two.. our heavenly Father, and Jesus His Son.. So though I believe they are 'one' I do not believe the Son is the Father.. Islam accuses us of having two 'gods' (or three), but I think there is One and if that One wants to have a Son - only straight out from Him One - to sit at His right hand, who are we to question Him about it! (To make the issue all that more confusing? :laughing7: ) ...So I guess actually, I do like talking about this issue! But if in the wrong place at the wrong time.. look out! incoming! (bombs away! :laughing7: )
No bombs :) Just a reminder that this subject is so complex and unfortunately- fraught with intense feelings that often cause division, we have opened it once or twice for discussion and those threads are available.
Every possible position is presented on those threads and are open to read, but Tenmaker is established to celebrate and share the victorious gospel, not to rehash the doctrinal divisions of a thousand years and 10,000 doctrines and denominations :laugh:
This is one of them. Better to go there and read the various views than to have the whole discussion again here
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/25/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/25/)
Thanks John EW , for sharing that again.
LOOKING at this yesterday , and saw a clue to whom the HOLY SPIRIT is Father and Son and those with Him /Them as ONE in gathering LIVING SPIRIT& WORD OF TRUTH
John 7 37 Now on the last and most important day of the feast, Jesus stood and called out [in a loud voice], "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink! 38 He who believes in Me [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Me], as the Scripture has said, 'From his innermost being will flow continually rivers of living water.'" 39 But He was speaking of the [Holy] Spirit, whom those who believed in Him [as Savior] were to receive afterward. The Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).
Division of People over Jesus
40 Listening to these words, some of the people said, "This is certainly the Prophet!" 41 Others said, "This is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed)!" But others said, "Surely the Christ is not going to come out of Galilee, is He? 42 Does the Scripture not say that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David lived?" 43 So the crowd was divided because of Him. 44 Some of them wanted to arrest Him, but no one laid hands on Him.
handled the word of Life 1 John 1
[I am writing about] what existed from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life [the One who existed even before the beginning of the world, Christ]—
2 and the Life [an aspect of His being] was manifested, and we have seen [it as eyewitnesses] and testify and declare to you [the Life], the eternal Life who was [already existing] with the Father and was [actually] made visible to us [His followers]—
3 what we have seen and heard we also proclaim to you, so that you too may have fellowship [as partners] with us. And indeed our fellowship [which is a distinguishing mark of born-again believers] is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4 We are writing these things to you so that our joy [in seeing you included] may be made complete [by having you share in the joy of salvation].
God Is Light
5 This is the message [of God's promised revelation] which we have heard from Him and now announce to you, that God is Light [He is holy, His message is truthful, He is perfect in righteousness], and in Him there is no darkness at all [no sin, no wickedness, no imperfection].
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness [of sin], we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we [really] walk in the Light [that is, live each and every day in conformity with the precepts of God], as He Himself is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another [He with us, and we with Him], and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin [by erasing the stain of sin, keeping us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].
8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude ourselves and the truth is not in us. [His word does not live in our hearts.]
9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just [true to His own nature and promises], and will forgive our sins and cleanse us continually from all unrighteousness [our wrongdoing, everything not in conformity with His will and purpose].
10 If we say that we have not sinned [refusing to admit acts of sin], we make Him [out to be] a liar [by contradicting Him] and His word is not in us.
BLESSED IS HE WHOM IS NOT OFFENDED BECAUSE OF ME [WORD OF GOD ] NAMED JESUS CHRIST John 12
JESUS NEVER SPOKE A WORD OF HIS OWN For
I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 24, 2016, 10:19:47 PM
I don't remember that, CST.
No one has it all right......no one I met yet, anyway. :JCThink:
C.S. Is not a Christian Universalist, but I do think he is able to discern and
explain many spiritual concepts well. I started reading him when I was 21......a long time ago.
I realize many of my thoughts on faith come from him.
But we each need to take our own journeys.
And find our own mentors and 'wise counsel'.
Blessings on your journey!
D.
Yeah, he talked about us as 'little Jesuses" (I'm not sure how he spelt it) which I felt both reduced Jesus and elevated us improperly because Jesus is God and we are not. But I think it was just that last straw sort thing. There were also other, I'm sure, that were making me dubious of his theology i just can't remember what they all were.
Quote from: marie glen on March 25, 2016, 06:08:01 PM
Quote from: CST on March 24, 2016, 03:57:58 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 23, 2016, 08:24:16 PM
I avoided this thread for a couple of days :laughing7: while it was coming up on the list..
..I don't want to get into trouble.. (I'm mostly kidding of course.. sort of..)
Jesus prayed we would be one as they are one.. This topic like a few others Christianity has, I sometimes think the 'sides' just don't really hear what the other 'side' is saying.. Or like with a lot of things, the truth lies closest somewhere in the middle of the two poles.. :dontknow: :2c:
:laugh:
Why do you, kind of think you might get into trouble for stating you view? Do you think you might get into trouble with other forum members, other church members, with God?
Not likely "in trouble" here, on this forum.. but this is one of the most 'volatile' of Christian topics! I'm not really sure why.. :dontknow: If i remember right, I believe they even had a war about this early on.. they forgot to love their 'enemies', er, brethren..
It was confusing, to me, about trinity for a while... when praying! I didn't know if I should address my prayers to the Father (like it seemed to me Jesus said to do) or to the Lord Jesus, which at the time felt the more natural and comfortable.. And even though I felt I had 'met' God before learning about Jesus.. (they occurred closely together, but not quite). I don't remember how the clouds cleared but somehow I began to realize, or that is sense and feel the two.. our heavenly Father, and Jesus His Son.. So though I believe they are 'one' I do not believe the Son is the Father.. Islam accuses us of having two 'gods' (or three), but I think there is One and if that One wants to have a Son - only straight out from Him One - to sit at His right hand, who are we to question Him about it! (To make the issue all that more confusing? :laughing7: ) ...So I guess actually, I do like talking about this issue! But if in the wrong place at the wrong time.. look out! incoming! (bombs away! :laughing7: )
I'm pretty sure they had a war about every contentious topic. As I recall the primary cause of the schism between Eastern and Western church was whether or not the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son, or the Father only. That's an involved argument.
I understand your problem about praying at the moment I often pray to both successively but I concede I'm not really sure that I know what I'm doing.
I don't think the Trinity is about God "wanting" to have a Son. He may well do but I think the Son exists regardless of any desire.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 25, 2016, 09:01:18 PM
No bombs :) Just a reminder that this subject is so complex and unfortunately- fraught with intense feelings that often cause division, we have opened it once or twice for discussion and those threads are available.
Every possible position is presented on those threads and are open to read, but Tenmaker is established to celebrate and share the victorious gospel, not to rehash the doctrinal divisions of a thousand years and 10,000 doctrines and denominations :laugh:
This is one of them. Better to go there and read the various views than to have the whole discussion again here
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/25/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/25/)
Fine, even though I think this is a more go to board for people who want to know about what we think about the Trinity I will abstain from writing more of my feelings on it here except in response to posters I am responding to and wait until I get to one of those other ones. Perhaps, not the one you keep direction us to though. That seems to be a breakaway from another topic and looks, to me, like a mess.
Quote from: rosered on March 25, 2016, 09:37:32 PM
Thanks John EW , for sharing that again.
LOOKING at this yesterday , and saw a clue to whom the HOLY SPIRIT is Father and Son and those with Him /Them as ONE in gathering LIVING SPIRIT& WORD OF TRUTH
John 7 37 Now on the last and most important day of the feast, Jesus stood and called out [in a loud voice], "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink! 38 He who believes in Me [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Me], as the Scripture has said, 'From his innermost being will flow continually rivers of living water.'" 39 But He was speaking of the [Holy] Spirit, whom those who believed in Him [as Savior] were to receive afterward. The Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).
Division of People over Jesus
40 Listening to these words, some of the people said, "This is certainly the Prophet!" 41 Others said, "This is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed)!" But others said, "Surely the Christ is not going to come out of Galilee, is He? 42 Does the Scripture not say that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David lived?" 43 So the crowd was divided because of Him. 44 Some of them wanted to arrest Him, but no one laid hands on Him.
handled the word of Life 1 John 1
[I am writing about] what existed from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life [the One who existed even before the beginning of the world, Christ]—
2 and the Life [an aspect of His being] was manifested, and we have seen [it as eyewitnesses] and testify and declare to you [the Life], the eternal Life who was [already existing] with the Father and was [actually] made visible to us [His followers]—
3 what we have seen and heard we also proclaim to you, so that you too may have fellowship [as partners] with us. And indeed our fellowship [which is a distinguishing mark of born-again believers] is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4 We are writing these things to you so that our joy [in seeing you included] may be made complete [by having you share in the joy of salvation].
God Is Light
5 This is the message [of God's promised revelation] which we have heard from Him and now announce to you, that God is Light [He is holy, His message is truthful, He is perfect in righteousness], and in Him there is no darkness at all [no sin, no wickedness, no imperfection].
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness [of sin], we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we [really] walk in the Light [that is, live each and every day in conformity with the precepts of God], as He Himself is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another [He with us, and we with Him], and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin [by erasing the stain of sin, keeping us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].
8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude ourselves and the truth is not in us. [His word does not live in our hearts.]
9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just [true to His own nature and promises], and will forgive our sins and cleanse us continually from all unrighteousness [our wrongdoing, everything not in conformity with His will and purpose].
10 If we say that we have not sinned [refusing to admit acts of sin], we make Him [out to be] a liar [by contradicting Him] and His word is not in us.
BLESSED IS HE WHOM IS NOT OFFENDED BECAUSE OF ME [WORD OF GOD ] NAMED JESUS CHRIST John 12
JESUS NEVER SPOKE A WORD OF HIS OWN For
I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.
Or, in other words, if you say you don't sin you are sinning.
And if God has consigned everyone to disobedience in order to have mercy on all, does that mean it's disobedient (and thus sinful) not to want to be disobedient?
Obviously that's a rhetorical question I've no reason to think you have, or any one else here. should have, an answer for it.
Personally, I see this presentation – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit – as a way for the great Parent God to give to humanity a means whereby it may not only understand something of His ineffable Nature, but also a way to find Him and be with Him.
It seems to me that the Reality of Almighty God, in His greatness, His omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience in His entirety, is something which is far beyond a human being to comprehend. Indeed, I believe that a complete comprehension of All–Power, All–Knowledge, All–Wisdom, is something so far removed from a human being that He is only able to provide ideas and concepts which can be grasped by the human mind but which do not present the Divine Reality of the Godhead in His fullness – and as for experience of His Being, even the smallest gift of Divine Grace is as much as a human being can absorb, assimilate and dilate upon to the point that silence is eventually entered due to the lack of man–made adjectives to portray His indescribable overwhelming–ness.
While I believe that there is an eternity to come to know and become ever more acquainted with the Most High, I personally do not see an enigma with that presented to man of the Godhead – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit – certainly not one that should cause caustic feelings between people with different viewpoints. It would seem to me that the enemies of Christ thrive when people cannot accept such differences, because the humility of Christ is forgotten and banished by self – and the enemies get their chance to strike.
It seems to me that the loving–kindness and merciful benevolence of God did bless "man" from the beginning of Creation, with Christ. However, man being blind, was not able to perceive the generosity of the Great Giver who withholds nothing from His children but only waits until they are ready to accept it.
So, as I see it, from the Mind of the Most High who understands all things, was given – came forth, emanated, proceeded – the Person He is, who could bring the greatest gain to His children in a Form which was the most approachable and accessible available to man – the Messiah, Yeshua, Jesus.
Jesus the Christ of God – the Redeemer, the loving Saviour, the Good Shepherd – was the bridge, the connection, the conduit – over which and by which and through which the children of God who wandered in darkness might traverse the abyss between themselves and the One True God.
The comprehension of, or the understanding of God, I believe, comes through sifting and sifting, and bearing always in the mind the Holy Spirit or God or Christ, whichever aspect of the majestic Godhead that renders the greatest comfort and aid. I do believe that God wants His children to know more and more of Him, which comes through growth. I do not believe that one is suddenly able to comprehend Almighty God in His totality in an instant – I personally think that is a misguiding notion portraying a God who has brought into being a wondrous Creation simply for a metaphorical switch to be turned on, as it were. A plant cannot be forced or it will fail through weakness. Neither can a plant be replanted into a new environment without some of its existing soil be carried in its roots. This is why, it seems to me, that there must always be something of the familiar when entering new conditions.
As I see it, always focussing on the One who is caring and loving, by keeping constantly close to the Father or Christ or the Holy Spirit, removes the thinking which is complex and replaces it with simplicity. In this way, according to my limited understanding, there comes a Day when an unutterable sense of everlasting youthfulness and freedom is found in the consciousness, a sense of not only belonging to God as a child but of being a daughter or son of His in Spirit.
In my opinion, it is not an affront on humility to recognise oneself as that ordained by God Himself – as His child – but only with the innocence of a little child will come this realisation as a reality, and not simply as something read or heard.
This little world and the vast Realms of Spirit which man has speculated upon but of which he truly knows very little, are fathered by God. But because God is the Father of that immensity which man can only perceive in small part, it does not change the fact that He is the Father – individually and personally – of each of His children.
I personally have no problem but rather the opposite, in seeing God as being the Father–Redeemer of each one, and at the same time being the Christ – the God in Christ – of each one as the Saviour and Redeemer. I see the Holy Spirit not only being the Comforter and the Guide, but also as that priceless facet of the Godhead who is Spirit, with which the Creator endowed His children out of Himself when He made them in His own Image – and one is only recognising and admitting ones relationship as a progressing child of God, bound to the Godhead through the Holy Spirit, a son or daughter.
This is just my opinion.
Peace †
Thank you! :smile:
That sounds rather good. Even if it's clear the result has too much been more confusion and less peace and understanding. Honestly, I don't even understand any of this at all anymore, I suspect. Very confused.
Lastpost - Nicepost
CST said
QuoteOr, in other words, if you say you don't sin you are sinning.
And if God has consigned everyone to disobedience in order to have mercy on all, does that mean it's disobedient (and thus sinful) not to want to be disobedient?
Obviously that's a rhetorical question I've no reason to think you have, or any one else here. should have, an answer for it.
What I am trying to say is CST when you are in the Body of Christ you are in sinless flesh .. none of will enter in our own sinful flesh , flesh and blood cannot inherit the things of God , just the things of this world and namely death ... under the law we are put to death so faith tested and passing the test can have its perfect work ...3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its
perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.......
Jesus Christ made the way though His flesh for us to enter in the holy of holies or most holy place ..
Hebrews 10 19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20
by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21
and since we have a great priest over the house of God,... His sinless flesh is the only way to the Father , I do believe Paul was there in the holy of holies the "third heaven " and the first one to experience this by the Revelation or revealing of Christ among the chosen 12 and that Jesus chose him specifically out of literally thousands of prospects to prove a point .
That even murderers can be forgiven and used by God in the most glorious of ways , because it says no murderers can enter Rev 21 ...7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars,
their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
"The New Jerusalem
...26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose
names are written in the Lamb's book of life. The ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER IS THOUGH JESUS CHRIST SINLESS BODY .... Rev 15 ...7Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and
no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.
I will always believe we are so much more than just one little human being , but made up of many things within us ,, the whole world , Word and spirits so very much more [ECC3 ] God Set Eternity in the Heart of Man
11 He has made everything beautiful and appropriate in its time. He has also planted eternity [a sense of divine purpose] in the human heart [a mysterious longing which nothing under the sun can satisfy
, except God]—yet man cannot find out (comprehend, grasp) what God has done (His overall plan) from the beginning to the end.
This is why we are to judge NOTHING or no one before the time till the Lord comes ,
He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God. JESUS CHRIST always knows our hearts and when HE RULES IT or not ......
and only though Him will we see GOD and know things beyond the wildest of imaginations ... hoping this was much more clear than the first .
The Father and Son and Holy Spirit are all one and the SAME doing the works together as ONE ,
They destroy, tear down strongholds and build, make new as the old becomes non existent in your world and life and it is individually as can be this is why no one knows the time or hour not the angels nor Jesus but the FATHER ONLY .
Because the FATHER IS SEEKING THOSE TO WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH , Which the Lord Jesus Christ is the / WORD OF GOD MADE HIS FLESH ... new spiritual bodies , living epistles You are our letter, having been inscribed in our hearts, being known and being read by all men,
that are the glory of God now in this world to see manifested and drawing all men unto Christ body of believers [ 1 Cor 15] ..
QuoteFine, even though I think this is a more go to board for people who want to know about what we think about the Trinity I will abstain from writing more of my feelings on it here except in response to posters I am responding to and wait until I get to one of those other ones. Perhaps, not the one you keep direction us to though. That seems to be a breakaway from another topic and looks, to me, like a mess.
Any debate on the Godhead issue is going to be a mess. That's why we dont allow it to be rehashed on the site. This site is purposely limited in scope to subjects related to the salvation of all.
Every other subject under the sun has been discussed and or debated at one time or another, so we are pretty liberal about this- but there are LOTS of other sites where the Godhead can be addressed and discussed and debated.
My experience is that that discussion will almost always turn contentious because not every one is able to discuss this from a strictly scholarly perspective- remaining in a collegial and respectful attitude.
Tentmaker is definitely not a "go to" board for the discussion of the Godhead, and there is no singular view among believers in the salvation of all- who come from many different backgrounds.
Quote from: rosered on March 28, 2016, 01:47:36 PM
CST said
QuoteOr, in other words, if you say you don't sin you are sinning.
And if God has consigned everyone to disobedience in order to have mercy on all, does that mean it's disobedient (and thus sinful) not to want to be disobedient?
Obviously that's a rhetorical question I've no reason to think you have, or any one else here. should have, an answer for it.
What I am trying to say is CST when you are in the Body of Christ you are in sinless flesh .. none of will enter in our own sinful flesh , flesh and blood cannot inherit the things of God , just the things of this world and namely death ... under the law we are put to death so faith tested and passing the test can have its perfect work ...3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.......
Jesus Christ made the way though His flesh for us to enter in the holy of holies or most holy place ..
Hebrews 10 19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God,...
His sinless flesh is the only way to the Father , I do believe Paul was there in the holy of holies the "third heaven " and the first one to experience this by the Revelation or revealing of Christ among the chosen 12 and that Jesus chose him specifically out of literally thousands of prospects to prove a point .
That even murderers can be forgiven and used by God in the most glorious of ways , because it says no murderers can enter Rev 21 ...7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
"The New Jerusalem
...26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
The ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER IS THOUGH JESUS CHRIST SINLESS BODY .... Rev 15 ...7Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.
I will always believe we are so much more than just one little human being , but made up of many things within us ,, the whole world , Word and spirits so very much more [ECC3 ] God Set Eternity in the Heart of Man
11 He has made everything beautiful and appropriate in its time. He has also planted eternity [a sense of divine purpose] in the human heart [a mysterious longing which nothing under the sun can satisfy, except God]—yet man cannot find out (comprehend, grasp) what God has done (His overall plan) from the beginning to the end.
This is why we are to judge NOTHING or no one before the time till the Lord comes , He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
JESUS CHRIST always knows our hearts and when HE RULES IT or not ......
and only though Him will we see GOD and know things beyond the wildest of imaginations ... hoping this was much more clear than the first .
The Father and Son and Holy Spirit are all one and the SAME doing the works together as ONE ,
They destroy, tear down strongholds and build, make new as the old becomes non existent in your world and life and it is individually as can be this is why no one knows the time or hour not the angels nor Jesus but the FATHER ONLY .
Because the FATHER IS SEEKING THOSE TO WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH , Which the Lord Jesus Christ is the / WORD OF GOD MADE HIS FLESH ... new spiritual bodies , living epistles You are our letter, having been inscribed in our hearts, being known and being read by all men,
that are the glory of God now in this world to see manifested and drawing all men unto Christ body of believers [ 1 Cor 15] ..
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
But only when it suits Him.
It is an infuriating anomaly of the Bible (or at least how it's translated) that even while it uses the word 'world' here to describe the created order which God loves and endeavors to save and will save so we believe. It also frequently uses it, probably more frequently, to describe the Kingdom of Satan and the Reign of Sin which God must hate, reject and shun and must demand that we hate, reject and shun it likewise in order to be in Jesus and inherit eternal life. Even though it is the domain we are born into and what we know best. Obviously it stands to reason that the things that attract us most are things of the world that what we encounter most frequently with little to no reason to question them usually.
I love Earthly things, I'm sure I do. I seriously doubt the things that attract me most in my life are heavenly things. I like my Earthly things and I'm pretty sure that means I'm not in Jesus' wonderfully flawless body at the moment. But I also don't see that changing anytime ever. Which means I wonder how God is supposed to love Earthly things like me when He hates and spurns all that is Earthly and worldly. God so loved the world... but.
I'm not going to be perfect and complete because I'm not going perfect and complete as I am not. To become perfect and complete I'll have to abandon these Earthly things that make me who I am now and acquire new things that will make me become some else who is probably so far removed removed from who I am now that it would be dishonest to affix the pronouns 'I', 'me' and 'myself' to that being. But apparently God loves me. That concept sounds so logically unsound as to cause me major confusion.
It's easy to quote that God has made everything beautiful and appropriate in its time but the attitude the Bible seems to encourage to us to hold is that the World is so far fallen that all is ruined and ugly and polluted and there is no beauty or goodness to be found anywhere.
I find these sort of thoughts especially hard.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 28, 2016, 05:02:59 PM
QuoteFine, even though I think this is a more go to board for people who want to know about what we think about the Trinity I will abstain from writing more of my feelings on it here except in response to posters I am responding to and wait until I get to one of those other ones. Perhaps, not the one you keep direction us to though. That seems to be a breakaway from another topic and looks, to me, like a mess.
Any debate on the Godhead issue is going to be a mess. That's why we dont allow it to be rehashed on the site. This site is purposely limited in scope to subjects related to the salvation of all.
Every other subject under the sun has been discussed and or debated at one time or another, so we are pretty liberal about this- but there are LOTS of other sites where the Godhead can be addressed and discussed and debated.
My experience is that that discussion will almost always turn contentious because not every one is able to discuss this from a strictly scholarly perspective- remaining in a collegial and respectful attitude.
Tentmaker is definitely not a "go to" board for the discussion of the Godhead, and there is no singular view among believers in the salvation of all- who come from many different backgrounds.
Oh, no!
I have agreed to abstain from post my feelings about the nature of the Trinity anymore in this thread because you don't think it will be helpful to put it here.
But I also think, while there may be good reasons not to discuss it on this site I don't think it's helpful to argue against discussing it using what I think are false reasons and I feel it's wrong for me not to address them.
Firstly, if we believe as is often implied God made the world in order to save the world, after all He made it knowing it would fall and need to be saved. It's not, I think, honest to claim any subject as being outside the scope of Universal Salvation if we believe that to be God's purpose.
But I'll fair perhaps it's only tentatively connected, perhaps there are many more relevant things for discussion. I'll quote Rose, quoting scripture, from above to argue that it's not.
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters
and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Therefore anyone who proclaims the doctrine of the Trinity and it isn't true and they are speaking falsely they are not in the body of Jesus and their salvation will be at the very least deferred. It is not our business, if we hold to the Salvation of All, to allow people to fall thus because we allowed them to believe falsehoods. I don't think this is what we are called to do. Not that I pretend I'm sure how to do what we are called to do.
So if it is false it is certainly pertinent to the salvation of all.
And what if it is true? There are a number of people in the world who claim that the doctrine of the Trinity is unbiblical and they reject it. However, in many cases they simultaneously reject the divinity of Jesus and this is a very big deal. If they are wrong then their salvation is in jeopardy but if they are right and Jesus is not God then there is no salvation because Jesus was just a man and the Bible speaks blasphemous lies about Him in claiming that He is God. Jesus is God or else no one is saved and there is no salvation, universal or otherwise.
So whether the Trinity is a true doctrine or a false one or whether it might be best not to talk about it on this site I don't think it is correct to say that it is not pertinent to Universal Salvation. To me it seems to be very much at the heart of it.
I would assume a liar is only a liar if they know they are lying and willingly decieve. I am not God but this is just my thought. So hopefully if someone is fuzzy on the nature of the Trinity it is not a deal breaker.
But even if it is, we will be corrected in love and ultimately be united with God after that.
I get where you are coming from though.
I think many on here believe that Jesus is not a mere man, but the NATURE of His relationship to God is what is debated. Like if he is eternally begotten (He always existed with God the father) or was created prior to God creating the material universe, and then all things were created through Him (Jesus).
But I understand you wanting us to get it right so as to not spread falsehood.
Read the history of the doctrine and how it came about.
We are made in God's image- are we three beings in one?
Lets not have the debate here in this thread. Altho some of you were not members at the time, this has been rehashed ad nauseum in the past. it is not the purpose of the forum to examine the godhead doctrine, but if someone wants to see what some of the different views held by some of the members of the forum are they would have to dig through the thread/link posted earlier in this thread. Thanks.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 01, 2016, 06:17:45 AM
Lets not have the debate here in this thread. Altho some of you were not members at the time, this has been rehashed ad nauseum in the past. it is not the purpose of the forum to examine the godhead doctrine, but if someone wants to see what some of the different views held by some of the members of the forum are they would have to dig through the thread/link posted earlier in this thread. Thanks.
^^
well, I believe in UR and I believe in the Triune God so I guess that makes me a Christian Trinitarian Universalist.Phew !..glad I got all that out there !.
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 01, 2016, 03:13:15 AM
I would assume a liar is only a liar if they know they are lying and willingly decieve. I am not God but this is just my thought. So hopefully if someone is fuzzy on the nature of the Trinity it is not a deal breaker.
But even if it is, we will be corrected in love and ultimately be united with God after that.
I get where you are coming from though.
I think many on here believe that Jesus is not a mere man, but the NATURE of His relationship to God is what is debated. Like if he is eternally begotten (He always existed with God the father) or was created prior to God creating the material universe, and then all things were created through Him (Jesus).
But I understand you wanting us to get it right so as to not spread falsehood.
Possibly but the intimation in that passage from Revelation, which I believe I've also seen translated as all kinds of liars, is that is seems to catch anyone who might not fit in the other groups (if such things exist).
But my real issue is not just about not wanting to spread falsehood it's that poor as I am at it I do believe there is a call to evangelism placed on Christians and this isn't just about telling them that Jesus died for their sins so that they can store the knowledge for later when then feel a bit low. The commission given to us by Jesus is very straight forward "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 28:19) How are we supposed to do that if we don't know what it means to do so?
And note remember it is name in the singular, even the New World Translation does this it's not names in the plural. These beings share one name. Now remember in the Hebrew a name isn't just what something is called it's a way of expressing there fundamental character and nature. Therefore it would suggest that these three beings are identical in character and nature. That should settle the matter. But people aren't very inclined to think like that.
There is room for believers in good standing to disagree about things. Evangelism is not at all dependent on any particular godhead doctrine that exceeds Romans 10. I have worshipped and shared communion with believers of different persuasions on this issue and seen people saved in their varying churches 😎
Please explain what you mean by "seen people being saved" that sounds like a very bold declaration to me. As I understand it none of us know who is saved until their name is announced from the Book Of Life on the "last day". Although there are people we have reason to believe it is unlikely their name will be in there at first reading so to speak.
Remember those who are not in Jesus and thus Jesus is not in them do not have the Truth in them. That would make them liars, intentional or not, and subject to the penalty described above.
I am still struggling with your portrayal as anyone who says something false as a liar. My understanding of liar is someone who decieves intentionally.
If someone told me it was raining out and I was in a room with no windows, and then I told someone else it's raining, I am mistaken but not a liar. The person who told me it was raining is the liar.
When I go outside and see it is sunny, I will know the truth and may feel hurt that I was lied to and feel bad that I passed on the lie, but in the end I will know that i wasn't truly at fault. I couldn't have verified the weather at that time in the room with no windows.
By portraying anyone who doesn't believe in the Trinity as a liar, and not just mistaken given the information they have available to them and their current understanding, you are implying that you are never mistaken about anything ever, especially on matters of theology. We both know that can't be true.
Like I said, we will be corrected and that will be that.
The word saved(sozo) means delivered, healed, restored.
People are saved when they believe in the death, burial and resurrection and submit to the Lordship of, Jesus Christ.
They are saved as they continue steadfast in the faith through the ongoing sanctification of the Holy Spirit.
They are saved on the day when they give glory to God in the resurrection.
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:12
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24
All the continuing aspects of salvation begin when one believes.
It is, imo, an inflammatory characterization to include everyone who does not believe what I believe as "liar"- because all of us are in error in some measure.
Although controversial, to be sure, it actually IS possible to have a coherent discussion of this, each coming from a different viewpoint, with the end result being edifying for all. Several years ago I had read of a fictional discussion of this subject on a website, which I had since lost track of. In doing a random internet search this morning, I came across a website where I found the missing article again, the spirit prompting my mind concerning it. Therefore, I am sharing this fictional exchange, for all here to consider. It is taken from http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/trinity2.html (http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/trinity2.html)- Ronen
The characters and their beliefs represent very different movements, and are entirely plausible. The main character is Sam the Seeker, who has called together four of his friends to question them about their beliefs. The friends are Thomas the Trinitarian, an Evangelical; Annie the Arian, an Adventist; David the dynamic Monarchian, who describes himself as a Biblical Unitarian; and Michelle the modalist, a charismatic. The setting is a table in a bowling alley, and the characters are sharing cheese and nachos between games.
"That's what I said," Sam chuckled as he reached for another cheese-laden nacho. "Really, I've been reading up on the topic but I still don't know what to believe. And I don't see how each of you can get along so well despite your radically different ideas about who Jesus is."
"I don't know that our views are that radically different," Thomas said. "I understand where you're coming from, though. There was a time when I believed that only Trinitarians could be saved. It wasn't until I got to know Michelle that I realized that other interpretations were possible. She still loves Jesus, even if she does speak in tongues." With a wink he playfully jabbed her shoulder, and she responded with a sardonic grin.
"Tom had a hard time understanding my view at first," Michelle interjected. "But after we discussed it for a few hours he began to see where I was coming from."
"Where are you coming from?" Sam asked. "What's your position?"
"Well," she said, "My position is really very simple: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.' Deuteronomy 6:4. That's it right there. God is one, not three or three-in-one. And Jesus is God, right? That means that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit — they're all the same. There's no difference between Jesus and the Father. In fact Jesus said it himself: 'I and my Father are one.'"
"How do you understand that?" Sam asked Tom.
"Well she's quoting John chapter 10 verse 30. If you were to look at the original Greek in that verse, you'd see that the word for 'one' is neuter, not masculine. To me that says not that Jesus and the Father are one Person, but rather that they are one in substance. They're distinct Persons, but they're both equally God."
"Another way to look at that," said Annie, putting down her soft drink, "is that Jesus and the Father are of the same mind. They're perfectly united in will. Seven chapters later, in John 17:21-23, Jesus prayed that we, too, would be 'one,' just as he and his Father are 'one.' That tells me that the 'oneness' represents unity."
"Well whatever the 'oneness' there is," Tom said, "what really got me about Michelle's position is that she does have some other very good verses. Like Isaiah 9:6. I know how I interpret it, but I can definitely see how it could support her view."
"What does that verse say?" Sam asked.
"That's where Isaiah prophesies that Jesus will be called 'Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The Everlasting Father," said Michelle. "That means that not only is Jesus God; he's the Father, literally."
"How do you understand that?" Sam asked Tom as he reached for another nacho.
"Well," Tom said, "Obviously I agree that Jesus is God. But is he literally the Father? To me that wouldn't seem consistent with the rest of the Bible, which implies a distinction. Perhaps the phrase 'Everlasting Father' is a way of saying that Jesus will be like the 'father' of the restored earth. One ancient Greek translation of Isaiah 9:6 renders it that way. It says that he will be called 'Father of the age to come."
"That's the way I look at it, too," David said.
Sam turned next to Annie. "You've said that you don't think Jesus is really God. How then do you explain the fact that Isaiah 9:6 says he will be called 'Mighty God'? Doesn't that settle the issue?"
"Well the word 'god' is used in a secondary sense of important people and of God's representatives," Annie answered. "As Jesus pointed out, for example, Psalm 82:6 calls Israel's judges 'gods.' Now the Hebrew word for 'god' in Isaiah 9:6 is also used to describe king Nebuchadnezzar in Ezekiel 31:11. And the word for 'mighty' in that verse is used in Ezekiel 32:12 to describe Nebuchadnezzar's armies. So the term 'mighty god' there doesn't have to mean that Jesus is literally Jehovah. I've seen some translators render that phrase 'mighty hero.' I think that catches the meaning of what Isaiah is saying: Jesus, the Messiah, is mighty.
"Besides that," she went on, stopping for a moment to sip her soft drink, "Jesus is the Word and Wisdom of God, right? And what does Proverbs 8:22 say?" She pulled out her New International Version pocket New Testament with Psalms and Proverbs, and flipped through the pages to Proverbs 8:22. "Wisdom says, 'The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works.' Jesus was the first created being of God. Then look at verse 30, describing the creation: 'Then I was the craftsman at his side.' After God created Jesus, Jesus was involved in creating the earth. Notice that there are two of them there."
"Two of them?" asked Sam with a frown. "Isn't that like polytheism - two different Gods?"
"Not if only one of them is God, and the other one is his Son," she replied.
"There is another way to look at Proverbs 8," said David, himself reaching for a nacho. He held it in front of him as he talked. "Keep in mind that we're dealing with poetical literature. I think that 'Wisdom' there is a figure of speech, a personification of one of God's attributes. It's not Jesus. After all, 'Wisdom' is a woman, whereas Jesus is a man. And look at verse 12," he said, glancing over at Annie's open pocket Bible. "'I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence.' If 'Wisdom' is Jesus, who's 'Prudence'?"
Tom smiled. "Good point."
"Well," continued Annie, there's Colossians 1:15." She flipped through her tiny pocket Bible's pages and produced the passage. "'He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created.' If Jesus was the 'firstborn of all creation,' doesn't that mean he was the first created being? And doesn't it go on to say that he created the earth, Dave?"
"Well," David began, having consumed his nacho, "to begin with, I don't think the point of this passage is the pre-existence of Christ. I think we can all agree that the point of the passage is the pre-eminence of Christ. Seen in that light, I think the term 'firstborn' is more a way of describing the fact that Jesus, like the firstborn son in Hebrew tradition, inherits certain privileges — in this case preeminence. I also think it's a reference to his resurrection, like in verse 18, 'the firstborn from among the dead.'"
"How do you explain verse 16, which says that Christ created the world?" Sam asked.
"I'm not so sure it's translated correctly, for one thing," he replied. The word here translated 'by' is actually the word for 'in.' I've always preferred the translation of the New Revised Standard Version. It says, 'for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created....all things have been created through him and for him." God created everything with Jesus in mind - but the Bible never actually says that the world was created by Jesus. Isaiah 44:24 says that God alone created the earth."
"But that seems like an unnatural way to interpret that preposition 'through,'" Tom interrupted. "If God created the earth 'through' Christ, doesn't that mean that he was an agent?"
"Well, I'll admit that, grammatically speaking, that's the most natural way to understand the word 'through.' But again, there are other verses, like Isaiah 44:24, that settle the issue for me. Having said that, there is yet another way to understand that verse. You'll notice it talks about the creation of thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers; all spiritual realities. It doesn't talk about rocks and trees and lakes. It's very possible this could be talking about Jesus as the creator of the new creation too."
"Well, Tom," said Sam, "I haven't really asked you to state your position yet. In a positive way, how would you describe your view that Christ, being fully God, yet came to the earth and became human?"
"May I borrow your New Testament?" Tom asked Annie. She slid it across the table to him. He flipped it open to the first part of Philippians. "In Philippians 2:6 and 7, Paul writes about Jesus, 'Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equalitywith God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.' To me that says it all. Jesus shared the very nature or substance of God, but he gave up his heavenly glory, coming down to earth to become human."
"How do you interpret that?" Sam asked David.
"Well again, I'd have to question the translation," David said as Tom smiled. "Does the Greek word in verse 6 mean 'nature,' as the NIV has it, or 'form,' as the New American Standard Version has it? If the latter, then what does it mean to say that Jesus was in the 'form' of God, but did not consider equality with God something to be grasped? I think there's a comparison being made with Adam, who was created in the image of God but who sinned in Eden, grasping at equality with God. By contrast, Jesus, who like Adam was created in the image or form of God, chose not to grasp at equality with God, but chose rather to humble himself, subjecting himself to our lowly estate and going to the cross for our sins."
"Well it's true that Jesus humbled himself," Tom said, "But it's also true that Jesus was the Word who was God in the beginning. And that Word became flesh. That's in John chapter 1."
"What do you think of that, Annie?" Sam asked.
"Seeing as there's no article for the word 'god' in the Greek," she replied, "I think it should be translated, 'The Word was a god.'"
"I don't think that's a likely translation," said Tom.
"How about you, Dave?" Sam asked. "What do you think about John chapter 1?"
"I agree with Tom that it shouldn't read 'The Word was a god,' David said. "But as with Wisdom in Proverbs 8, I have doubts about whether it's talking about the Person of Jesus or about a personification, about God's expression. After all, God did create the heavens and the earth by 'his word'; he said 'Let there be light' and the rest of it. And that Word became flesh in Jesus."
"How about you, Michelle?" Sam asked. "How do you interpret this chapter of the Bible? Isn't the Word distinguished from God?"
"I agree with Dave's interpretation of that chapter," she said. "As you know, for Dave and Annie the Father is the only God, and Jesus is separate. But I believe that in reality there is no separation, as Jesus is the Father. As the Father, Jesus always existed and alone created the earth — like Isaiah 44:24 says. When we talk about Jesus as the Father, we're talking about his deity. When we talk about him as the Son, we're talking about his humanity. Jesus was both God and man, both Father and Son. But if his Sonship is his humanity, then it isn't proper to talk about the Son existing in the beginning, as if there were two Creators. So the Word through which God created the world — I don't believe the Word was actually a separate Person, but God's expression, a way of talking about his divine plan. This plan became flesh when the Father — that is, Jesus — was incarnated as the Son."
Sam toyed with that thought as he played with another nacho. Then, breaking the silence, turned to Annie. "I'm getting the idea about how each of you interpret the main chapters — Isaiah 9, Proverbs 8, Colossians 1, Philippians 2, John 1 — but let me try to see the forest and not just the trees. Annie, you've made it clear that you do think Jesus personally existed with God in the beginning, but you don't believe he is literally God. What's the underlying principle behind that doctrine?"
Annie retrieved her pocket NIV from Tom and flipped it open to 1 Timothy 2. "For me it's all spelled out in 1 Timothy 2:5. There Paul writes, 'For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.' Now let's illustrate this point with my soda and your nachos. If I were to say, there's only one soda pop, and one plate of nachos, and — " she interposed a pepper shaker between the two — "one pepper dispenser between the soda and the chips — then would I be able to say that the pepper is the pop? For God to reach a sinful race, there needs to be a mediator. And a mediator is a go-between. Jesus isn't God but the mediator for God."
"So you're saying that your Christology has a soteriological basis," Tom said.
"I think so — what does 'soteriological' mean again?" Annie asked.
"Having to do with salvation," Tom answered. "My Christology also has a soteriological basis. I believe the only way for God to bridge the gap is to combine deity and humanity into one. That's why I believe Jesus is God and man. God is the only being whose death can have saving value. That's why Jesus, the God-man, died on the cross."
"God died on the cross — I can agree with that," Michelle said.
"Well," said Dave, "I understand your point. But what I see in the New Testament is a little bit different. I don't see anything that says God has to die in order for salvation to be wrought. Rather, what I see is that a sinless human person needed to die to fulfill God's covenant requirements. Hebrews chapter 2, for example, says that Jesus had to be a man in order to die an effective death — it doesn't say he had to be God. Now why is that? If we consider Paul's comparison of Christ with Adam in Philippians 2, Romans 5, and 1 Corinthians 15, I think the picture begins to emerge. Sin entered the world through a real man; hence it had to be conquered through a real man. That's how I understand it."
Sam put down his last nacho with a sigh. "Okay, I'm starting to go into 'information overload.' All this talk about the Greek and the Hebrew and translations and interpretations — and so many different opinions — you guys have been studying this for years. I just feel frustrated. Who's correct?"
Sam's friends pondered in silence. Tom finally broke the silence. "If you feel that you need to figure all of this out, then by all means keep studying. But remember that when all is said and done, it's Jesus who saves you, not your ability to figure him out. That's why, for example, I believe Michelle and Annie and Dave can all be saved, even though in my opinion they haven't understood the doctrine correctly."
"I agree," said Michelle. "I believe I'm right in what I believe, but these others haven't come to the same conclusion. I believe they're sincere and that they've studied hard, and that Jesus is pleased with them. After all, all of us are wrong about something. And who knows? Maybe I'm the one who hasn't interpreted all the verses correctly."
"The fact is that we all have tons of Scripture to back up what we believe," David said. "And we're all trying to be biblical. That's one of the reasons we have such good fellowship. We pray together and for each other on a regular basis. And when our churches have combined services, we really enjoy worshipping together."
"And talking a lot," said Annie. "See? We've lost our lane. Someone else has moved in there."
"As long as we don't miss the real point," Tom added, "which is the fact that Jesus loves us, whether or not we get all our theology figured out."
"I like the sound of what you're saying," Sam said, "but how would you respond to the idea that each of you has a 'different Jesus'? After all your views are so different."
David thought about that a moment. "I don't think we each believe in a 'different' Jesus. We just don't understand everything about him in exactly the same way. Sure, we can't all be right about the details, but we all have a very good idea of who he i s — the revelation of the loving Father, the chosen Messiah and Son of God."
Sam looked thoughtful but didn't reply, so David continued.
"Think of it this way. You know Frank the mailman?"
"Oh sure," Sam said.
"You know where he's from?"
"Well he has that accent. And considering the spelling of his last name — I'd say Germany."
"Wrong," David said. "He's from Switzerland."
"So what's the point?" Sam asked.
"My point is that we both know Frank. We had different ideas about the exact identification of his origin, but it's still the same Frank. I wouldn't ever think about telling you that you know 'another Frank' because you didn't understand everything about him. So it is with Jesus. Each of us here has a relationship with Jesus, even though we may not completely agree on, or even understand, everything about him. But we do know the basics: We know that he is truly God's Son, and that he died on the cross to save us from our sins, however that works."
It is definitely possible to have a civilized discussion on the nature of deity. It is also highly unlikely :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on April 03, 2016, 06:05:28 PM
It is definitely possible to have a civilized discussion on the nature of deity. It is also highly unlikely :o)
I know you are right, we lost a wonderful member , over this horrid division that hurts , still miss Molly to this day :CryBaby:
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 02, 2016, 08:31:27 PM
I am still struggling with your portrayal as anyone who says something false as a liar. My understanding of liar is someone who decieves intentionally.
If someone told me it was raining out and I was in a room with no windows, and then I told someone else it's raining, I am mistaken but not a liar. The person who told me it was raining is the liar.
When I go outside and see it is sunny, I will know the truth and may feel hurt that I was lied to and feel bad that I passed on the lie, but in the end I will know that i wasn't truly at fault. I couldn't have verified the weather at that time in the room with no windows.
By portraying anyone who doesn't believe in the Trinity as a liar, and not just mistaken given the information they have available to them and their current understanding, you are implying that you are never mistaken about anything ever, especially on matters of theology. We both know that can't be true.
Like I said, we will be corrected and that will be that.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2016, 08:53:53 PM
The word saved(sozo) means delivered, healed, restored.
People are saved when they believe in the death, burial and resurrection and submit to the Lordship of, Jesus Christ.
They are saved as they continue steadfast in the faith through the ongoing sanctification of the Holy Spirit.
They are saved on the day when they give glory to God in the resurrection.
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:12
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24
All the continuing aspects of salvation begin when one believes.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2016, 08:57:13 PM
It is, imo, an inflammatory characterization to include everyone who does not believe what I believe as "liar"- because all of us are in error in some measure.
Oh, I don't contest these points and share the reasoning and in common conversation I would never want to say someone is a liar who believes what they say even when they are mistake, though I think there there may be some flexibility in why they believe what they believe.
But the problem I have is that when the term liar is used in the Revelation it is used in a series of indictments of the "unsaved" body. IE those who are not in Christ I think we can agree on that. But I know we all lie at some time in our lives. All lie in the sense of speak to intentionally deceive or mislead. We are all guilt of this even if if we might not consider ourselves guilty of the other more serious seeming offences on that list (whether we are or not). It definitely covers all of the species regardless so only being forgiven and justified by the Lord can any of us hope to avoid the penalty, I know all this.
But Jesus claims to be the Truth and I obviously don't think this is an idea claim. And anything that is not the truth is falsehood and it would seem to be opposed to Jesus. Remember Jesus calls the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Truth that teaches us all things. So why does He teach some people one thing about the Trinity and another group of people a different thing? Well the answer is that He doesn't, does He? Some people receive true teaching from the Holy Spirit and other people, whatever they may think, receive false teaching from somewhere else. And that conflict that I perceives makes me doubt that all these people can really be in Jesus, I struggle to believe I'm in Jesus as you may have noticed. And I struggle to believe anyone who teaches the wrong thing is really in Jesus and all this I struggle with.
The matter of being saved is a much bigger issue for be, there seem to be parts of scripture that suggest getting salvation is easy others that it's something that you really have to put some effort in. That's why we have controversies over whether you can lose your salvation.
Being made perfect in Love ........ there is not one divison in love
Love does not mean anything to the world ..
But it is everything to do with GOD ...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+4&version=NASB (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+4&version=NASB)
What is going to matter is how much you loved
Do you believe salvation has always depended on how much you know of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ?
Or is the TREE OF LIFE When perfect and complete LOVE IS ABOUNDING ?
Here to tell everyone what an experience it is to have our faith tested , faith is not real faith till its tested tried and true
We all as humans can say anything and boast great things about Gods Spirit and His Word
But it really is going though all them tests of faith and failures and struggles and sufferings and feelings every emotion rise up in you
There will be this compassion and empathy come out of the worst of situations and considering others because of it
If and when death is the last enemy and that loss , because you LOVED stings like nothing else you have ever known , Know this, GOD is dealing with you , your pain and torment by those emotions are real and you never get over it ,
But you LEARN TO ACCEPT it as GODS WILL and you know the man of sin [error] is experiencing death , death is of this world and the temporary things we dwell in and on that LOSS of everything you love and hold dear is ripped away from you
Consider Job , LOVE is not love till you experience every emotion possible , death , guilt and anger and loss and pain and suffering and sadness , hope finally joy in KNOWING GOD IS LOVE and that it was always HIS , we ALL are His , all things are His EVERY LIVING THING , HE LOOSES NOTHING ...GOD OF THE LIVING death is just the temporary state that everything must rise up out of in JESUS CHRIST THE WORD OF TRUTH / GOD BY HIS OWN SPIRIT OF TRUTH .. His work we learn to acknowledge by faith making His righteousness known in the earth as it is in heaven .
Does knowing if these three are One make salvation more sure ? or Does knowing that LOVE holds no ill of wrongdoing ?
What makes faith possible to please God ? It is going through those fiery trials and still after all that experience , finally trusting GOD for all you needs
though it is a very painful process at the time and you realize how miserable and wretched and blind and faithless and poor you really are and your major lack of love , you ask for more of HIM , FOR GOD IS LOVE ..... and JESUS CHRIST / THE WORD OF GOD, COME TO PROVE IT , AND IT JUDGES US ALL .
THE WORD OF TRUTH BY THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH is how the true worshippers will serve GOD'S DESIRE being MADE BY HIM ,FOR HIM AND THOUGH HIM
That substance
Quote from: rosered on April 04, 2016, 06:47:33 PM
Being made perfect in Love ........ there is not one divison in love
Love does not mean anything to the world ..
But it is everything to do with GOD ...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+4&version=NASB (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+4&version=NASB)
What is going to matter is how much you loved
Do you believe salvation has always depended on how much you know of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ?
Or is the TREE OF LIFE When perfect and complete LOVE IS ABOUNDING ?
Here to tell everyone what an experience it is to have our faith tested , faith is not real faith till its tested tried and true
We all as humans can say anything and boast great things about Gods Spirit and His Word
But it really is going though all them tests of faith and failures and struggles and sufferings and feelings every emotion rise up in you
There will be this compassion and empathy come out of the worst of situations and considering others because of it
If and when death is the last enemy and that loss , because you LOVED stings like nothing else you have ever known , Know this, GOD is dealing with you , your pain and torment by those emotions are real and you never get over it ,
But you LEARN TO ACCEPT it as GODS WILL and you know the man of sin [error] is experiencing death , death is of this world and the temporary things we dwell in and on that LOSS of everything you love and hold dear is ripped away from you
Consider Job , LOVE is not love till you experience every emotion possible , death , guilt and anger and loss and pain and suffering and sadness , hope finally joy in KNOWING GOD IS LOVE and that it was always HIS , we ALL are His , all things are His EVERY LIVING THING , HE LOOSES NOTHING ...GOD OF THE LIVING death is just the temporary state that everything must rise up out of in JESUS CHRIST THE WORD OF TRUTH / GOD BY HIS OWN SPIRIT OF TRUTH .. His work we learn to acknowledge by faith making His righteousness known in the earth as it is in heaven .
Does knowing if these three are One make salvation more sure ? or Does knowing that LOVE holds no ill of wrongdoing ?
What makes faith possible to please God ? It is going through those fiery trials and still after all that experience , finally trusting GOD for all you needs
though it is a very painful process at the time and you realize how miserable and wretched and blind and faithless and poor you really are and your major lack of love , you ask for more of HIM , FOR GOD IS LOVE ..... and JESUS CHRIST / THE WORD OF GOD, COME TO PROVE IT , AND IT JUDGES US ALL .
THE WORD OF TRUTH BY THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH is how the true worshippers will serve GOD'S DESIRE being MADE BY HIM ,FOR HIM AND THOUGH HIM
That substance
I'm very fond of that part of John 1 but it's also rather infuriating at the moment because I'm living in an administration which scarcely seems to act on it.
I'm not sure how much I know of the tree of good and evil I know although I used to suspect it was about as much as Adam did owing to partaking in the same sin. I also didn't think I got to partake much of the tree of life until I'd got into the heavenly city. Having navigated the flaming sword God put in front of it and what you seem to be describing there.
Trusting God for all my needs seems like an easy prospect but in experience I don't feel I've received them all yet.
You asked "Does knowing if these three are one make salvation sure? or Does knowing that LOVE holds no ill of wrongdoing? (a Biblical statement I find strange given God's devastatingly dramatic responses to 'wrongdoing' in other parts of the Bible)
Well, I'm while I'm searching and reading article on the websites its self and today I have found one containing this Biblical reference:
"I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment." (1 Cor. 1:10)
Since it causes dispute amongst us and this verse opposes that, if I've understood rightly (which I may not have) according to Paul, yes it does matter. Sadly enough. I actually hope I have misunderstood.
CST,
Some of your descriptions, concerning the tree of life and the flaming sword for instance, are insightful and beautiful.
As far a division is concerned, the doctrinal issue does not cause it. The doctrinal issue is simply a point at which the carnal man gathers around the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and eats.
God is not, imo, in the slightest concerned whether we understand the nuts and bolts of the relationships within the deity- Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. he is more concerned if we understand that we are begotten from above by the living and abiding word of God unto a fervent love of the brethren. As Jesus prayed, "that they may be one as you and I are one".
There are various views upon these other things which men and women of good conscience may see differently- I personally think they are purposely obscured to test us.
I believe God will not be put in any box of our making and disregards our definitions as specious and self-serving for the most part. This is why Paul says not to get caught up in endless arguments about doubtful(hard to see clearly) disputations- BECAUSE THEY SUBVERT THE HEARERS. (These angry and divisive discussions undermine the faith of both seekers and new believers.)
The flaming sword stands at the entrance of the garden for all those who get too caught up in those things. James chapter 3 breaks it down well, for me anyway....
13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.
Flaming sword- works of the flesh disguised as spirit.....
14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.
Tree of Life- fruit of the spirit.....
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
Factually, as regards salvation and inclusion in the universal body over which Jesus Christ is head,
all anyone needs to understand is that Jesus is the only begotten Son of YHWH and that He died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and lives as Lord and Savior- but even this factual understanding is not enough unless it is the result of a conversion, and interior connection to Him that has begun the process of changing our nature into conformity with His- because He is the tree of life and communion with Him brings forth the fruit of the Spirit.
"You believe God is one? The devils believe also and tremble"
I hav no problem with anyones's view of the Godhead until they try to make it a law- an established fact unto which everyone else must submit.
Those who are eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are always going outside of Christ and establishing points of "knowledge" that become prerequisites to communion. This is unholy and results in division because it is rooted in the ego/flesh/carnal mind.
"Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies(builds up)"
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.[/b] Eph 4
While many people are absolutely certain their bond with some "truth" is critical to being "right", all these truths are subject to the truth of love.
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.... Eph 4
The truth is they are mostly deceived- even when the 'truth" they teach is really "true"( factually)- because they hold that truth in the flesh as a support to their ego.
Perfect love casts out all fear, and fear has torment. When we walk in perfected love we are not threatened by someone telling us we are "wrong", because the perfection of love comes from fellowship with Him, the tree of life. We dont get riled up and threaten people with judgment when they disagree with us.
No one is completely perfected in this, we mature as a process of the dealings of God in our lives. but as James writes,if we have "selfish ambition and bitter jealousy" in our hearts we are "fooling ourselves". We are like a man who looks in a mirror and then walks away and immediately forgets who he was looking at.
Most of us would reject the idea that we may have "selfish ambition" driving things we believe, but if our ego is involved in our theology, we definitely do, and it fuels the vitriol that develops when we discuss disputable topics.
Only when the flesh is dead and we have no personal horses in the race can we really discuss the word of God as- as the rabbi's called it "mid-rash"- and be open to recieve enlightenment from the Spirit. That is maturity.
Love is the greater truth- the first law of Christ. "No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
Jesus made peace by removing the barriers, but we just keep putting them back up again as new traditions- and traditions make the word of God of none effect(in the lives of traditionalists and those under their influence).
We cannot fix that in this forum. whether it is 'free will' or 'godhead' or 'soul sleep' or whatever, many universalists are as attached to their traditions as anyone, and totally assured of their "correctness' in the positions they hold on these mysteries which, imo, are "seen through a glass darkly" in any case.
So, discussions on these things usually wind up with offenses and misunderstandings.
I understand why we continue to go there. Since UR is a "non- traditionalist" heresy ;o), you would think that you would find an openess to discuss all these things with a civilized detachment and an intelligent, scholarly, conversational tone- but it is not so. we are all in different places as we grow in grace.
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written,
"Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
One of the first things a disciple must learn is if he/she is speaking to a spiritual person or a carnal one. Jesus said, "cast not your pearls before swine". Isaiah said, "The Lord has given me the tongue of disciples(the learned) that I might speak a word "in season" to sustain a weary one."
Jesus said, "Take my yoke upon you and learn of Me for I am gentle and humble and you will find rest for your souls."
Butting heads and eating garbage with goats in the goat yard is the passion of some folks. Those who walk with the Shepherd are led beside still waters and graze in green pastures and are comforted by His rod and staff.
Thank you Lord for teaching us to reign in our minds and tame our tongues so that we can be fruitful in the harvest :o)
PS... Sometimes I wonder if we should have a sub-forum for discussing all these doctrinal issues where the topics will not detract from our purpose here, which is to teach the Salvation of All through the cross of Jesus Christ- our Savior and Lord.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 04, 2016, 11:55:29 PM
PS... Sometimes I wonder if we should have a sub-forum for discussing all these doctrinal issues where the topics will not detract from our purpose here, which is to teach the Salvation of All through the cross of Jesus Christ- our Savior and Lord.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBmafwdPzes
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 05, 2016, 02:17:51 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on April 04, 2016, 11:55:29 PM
PS... Sometimes I wonder if we should have a sub-forum for discussing all these doctrinal issues where the topics will not detract from our purpose here, which is to teach the Salvation of All through the cross of Jesus Christ- our Savior and Lord.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBmafwdPzes
LOLOL
Jesus Christ has tasted death for everyman , so we can taste GOD and know His goodness !!!!!!!
make the tree good and its fruits or make it corrupt a tree is known by its fruits ,
the fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT are Living by the Holy Spirit of LIFE IN HIS WORD OF LIFE .
...21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. but have this and is the corruption / death of carnal mindedness that is the enemy of the Spirit of Light & life
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law....
Taste and See the Lord is Good [ eat my body and drink my blood that you might have LIFE in you ]
Psalms 34
...7The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear Him,
And rescues them.
8O taste and see that the LORD is good;
How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!
9O fear the LORD, you His saints; For to those who fear Him there is no want.... :HeartThrob:
ALL come from GOD and all goes back to God who gave it all in the first place in the end .
It is this simple of a truth .
Quote from: eaglesway on April 04, 2016, 11:55:29 PM
CST,
Some of your descriptions, concerning the tree of life and the flaming sword for instance, are insightful and beautiful.
As far a division is concerned, the doctrinal issue does not cause it. The doctrinal issue is simply a point at which the carnal man gathers around the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and eats.
God is not, imo, in the slightest concerned whether we understand the nuts and bolts of the relationships within the deity- Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. he is more concerned if we understand that we are begotten from above by the living and abiding word of God unto a fervent love of the brethren. As Jesus prayed, "that they may be one as you and I are one".
There are various views upon these other things which men and women of good conscience may see differently- I personally think they are purposely obscured to test us.
I believe God will not be put in any box of our making and disregards our definitions as specious and self-serving for the most part. This is why Paul says not to get caught up in endless arguments about doubtful(hard to see clearly) disputations- BECAUSE THEY SUBVERT THE HEARERS. (These angry and divisive discussions undermine the faith of both seekers and new believers.)
The flaming sword stands at the entrance of the garden for all those who get too caught up in those things. James chapter 3 breaks it down well, for me anyway....
13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.
Flaming sword- works of the flesh disguised as spirit.....
14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.
Tree of Life- fruit of the spirit.....
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
Factually, as regards salvation and inclusion in the universal body over which Jesus Christ is head,
all anyone needs to understand is that Jesus is the only begotten Son of YHWH and that He died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and lives as Lord and Savior- but even this factual understanding is not enough unless it is the result of a conversion, and interior connection to Him that has begun the process of changing our nature into conformity with His- because He is the tree of life and communion with Him brings forth the fruit of the Spirit.
"You believe God is one? The devils believe also and tremble"
I hav no problem with anyones's view of the Godhead until they try to make it a law- an established fact unto which everyone else must submit.
Those who are eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are always going outside of Christ and establishing points of "knowledge" that become prerequisites to communion. This is unholy and results in division because it is rooted in the ego/flesh/carnal mind.
"Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies(builds up)"
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.[/b] Eph 4
While many people are absolutely certain their bond with some "truth" is critical to being "right", all these truths are subject to the truth of love.
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.... Eph 4
The truth is they are mostly deceived- even when the 'truth" they teach is really "true"( factually)- because they hold that truth in the flesh as a support to their ego.
Perfect love casts out all fear, and fear has torment. When we walk in perfected love we are not threatened by someone telling us we are "wrong", because the perfection of love comes from fellowship with Him, the tree of life. We dont get riled up and threaten people with judgment when they disagree with us.
No one is completely perfected in this, we mature as a process of the dealings of God in our lives. but as James writes,if we have "selfish ambition and bitter jealousy" in our hearts we are "fooling ourselves". We are like a man who looks in a mirror and then walks away and immediately forgets who he was looking at.
Most of us would reject the idea that we may have "selfish ambition" driving things we believe, but if our ego is involved in our theology, we definitely do, and it fuels the vitriol that develops when we discuss disputable topics.
Only when the flesh is dead and we have no personal horses in the race can we really discuss the word of God as- as the rabbi's called it "mid-rash"- and be open to recieve enlightenment from the Spirit. That is maturity.
Love is the greater truth- the first law of Christ. "No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
Jesus made peace by removing the barriers, but we just keep putting them back up again as new traditions- and traditions make the word of God of none effect(in the lives of traditionalists and those under their influence).
We cannot fix that in this forum. whether it is 'free will' or 'godhead' or 'soul sleep' or whatever, many universalists are as attached to their traditions as anyone, and totally assured of their "correctness' in the positions they hold on these mysteries which, imo, are "seen through a glass darkly" in any case.
So, discussions on these things usually wind up with offenses and misunderstandings.
I understand why we continue to go there. Since UR is a "non- traditionalist" heresy ;o), you would think that you would find an openess to discuss all these things with a civilized detachment and an intelligent, scholarly, conversational tone- but it is not so. we are all in different places as we grow in grace.
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written,
"Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
One of the first things a disciple must learn is if he/she is speaking to a spiritual person or a carnal one. Jesus said, "cast not your pearls before swine". Isaiah said, "The Lord has given me the tongue of disciples(the learned) that I might speak a word "in season" to sustain a weary one."
Jesus said, "Take my yoke upon you and learn of Me for I am gentle and humble and you will find rest for your souls."
Butting heads and eating garbage with goats in the goat yard is the passion of some folks. Those who walk with the Shepherd are led beside still waters and graze in green pastures and are comforted by His rod and staff.
Thank you Lord for teaching us to reign in our minds and tame our tongues so that we can be fruitful in the harvest :o)
PS... Sometimes I wonder if we should have a sub-forum for discussing all these doctrinal issues where the topics will not detract from our purpose here, which is to teach the Salvation of All through the cross of Jesus Christ- our Savior and Lord.
Insightful and beautiful? I thought I was just waffling. At best I thought all I was doing was turning what Rosered said into a shorthand which I thought was the common theological understanding of the flaming sword anyway.
I'm actually amazed I'm quoting St. Paul. I understand his epistles minimally, question them maximally and doubt the most immediate understanding of certain parts that seem to me to be self-evidently incorrect, which by the way I don't consider automatically untruthful.
Nevertheless that quote seems pertinent here given that Paul challenged what he considered heresies very frequently in his epistles and he does say, in that quote, that we are "united in the same mind and the same judgment." Now to me one person saying the nature of God is like this and another saying no it's like this appear to be conflicting judgments. It drives me crazy because I accept everything that you say about these sort of things, these things it is impossible to see how it would be remotely any more helpful and add anything to wisdom if we some how did resolve the question.
I also agree that there are many things "purposely obscured to test us" a bit like the parables. But at the same time presumably it's possible to fail the test. I mean I would have to concluded that any Christian who does not believe as we do that Jesus will succeed in saving the whole human family has had that truth obscured from them. But that affects their psychology. And seemed to undermine their salvation because they'll be offended as soon as they see God saving people they believed that He wasn't going to save. They're likely to get very grumpy some of them and I'm not sure heaven would fit them (us) at that time. hat's like failing a test, what are the consequences? Well, a spell in the lake of fire quite possibly.
I'm certainly among those people you talk about there, but knowing that doesn't change it. I know the Bible has a lot of good stuff to say about the truth and very little good stuff to say about what is false. I actually have slightly more complexed perspective than the black and white of a lot of those people we label literalist fundamentalists.
So I struggle with the Bible thus, it makes a lot of reasonably sense reading it but as soon as you think about putting it into practice it doesn't seem to fit at all.
I should also point out just before I end that the expression, as I understand, not to cast peals before swine that Jesus used was a Jewish idiom about not wasting the things of God, like miracles, on the unworthy, like Gentiles or the unclean. I should also mention that pretty much immediately after saying this Jesus went of and excised a bunch of demons from a swine herd by placing them in his swine.
When I think of the Trinity I still think Matt 28 is pretty strong now. Baptize in the name of...
Even stronger when I remember the third commandment. "You shall not use the name of YHWH your God improperly for YHWH will not hold as innocent anyone who makes improper use of His name. (or similar)
BTW you are aware that the very first quote in that post the one from Jesus, would also seem to answer your own question on the Shema?
The "trinity" teaching is a " theological theory" and as EW pointed out it has been discussed on this forum six ways from Sunday, and as far as I think, you can be whatever sect or denomination you call ones self and believe in a theory. (imo)
[Below is not an opinion for it is written]
Deu 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father, We are one."
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, Who is over all and through all and in all.
According to David and Zoe Sulem the Trinity is one of many biblical doctrines in addition to Hell,immortality of the soul, the prosperity gospel and speaking in tongues.
www.godsplanforall.com
Sorry, I meant unbibical doctrines.
Sorry, I meant unbiblical doctrines.
Some consider the doctrine of the trinity biblical, some dont. We all must study it out for ourselves and come to a conclusion of our own, The important thing is that we do not have to judge others for what they believe just because they judge us for what we believe.
This site is not set up for debates about the Godhead doctrine or speaking in tongues, etc.
It is for the proclamation and explanation of the doctrine of the salvation of all.
For instance, I speak in tongues. But if someone on here believes that is bad practice or scripturally incorrect- we are not here to debate that subject. There are other forums where those discussions are had.
Our fellowship in Jesus Christ does not have to be interrupted with judgments every time we disagree about a doctrine, unless it is one of the few truths that are fundamental to saving faith in him.
In my opinion those doctrinal truths necessary to salvation are,
The virgin birth and Jesus Christ as "the only begotten Son of God"
The sinless life of Christ in His perfect obedience and love for His Father and mankind
The sacrificial death of Christ at the cross for the forgiveness of sin
The resurrection of Jesus Christ in the body and His ascension into the heavenly realms as Lord and Savior
In my opinion these additional doctrines are necessary to successful fellowship
All members of Christ are one Body.
That the 66 books of the canon are the scriptures of the Christian faith and the basis for discussing, exploring and debating the truth.
That God has called us to love every one who is a member of the body of Christ in a special way, even if we disagree with them on some truth or another.
That God has called us to love everyone, even our enemies.
That God has called us to be gentle, patient and prayerful towards our doctrinal adversaries.
On TM we fellowship around a purpose of spreading the victorious gospel. The Restoration of All Things, The Salvation of All, Ultimate Universal Reconciliation- all through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
As Christian brothers and sisters we can discuss other general issues of doctrine and life in Christ in order to serve one another. The point at which another discussion ceases to serve and begins to create hostility and distraction from the primary purpose of the site is the point at which we moderate them to the best of our ability.
Quote from: rosered on April 05, 2016, 02:39:44 PM
Jesus Christ has tasted death for everyman , so we can taste GOD and know His goodness !!!!!!!
make the tree good and its fruits or make it corrupt a tree is known by its fruits ,
the fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT are Living by the Holy Spirit of LIFE IN HIS WORD OF LIFE .
...21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. but have this and is the corruption / death of carnal mindedness that is the enemy of the Spirit of Light & life
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law....
Taste and See the Lord is Good [ eat my body and drink my blood that you might have LIFE in you ]
Psalms 34
...7The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear Him,
And rescues them.
8O taste and see that the LORD is good;
How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!
9O fear the LORD, you His saints; For to those who fear Him there is no want.... :HeartThrob:
ALL come from GOD and all goes back to God who gave it all in the first place in the end .
It is this simple of a truth .
:) I like that sentiment I strugle with it though especially as I'm not sure I feel it much of the time.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 05, 2016, 07:04:26 PM
Some consider the doctrine of the trinity biblical, some dont. We all must study it out for ourselves and come to a conclusion of our own, The important thing is that we do not have to judge others for what they believe just because they judge us for what we believe.
This site is not set up for debates about the Godhead doctrine or speaking in tongues, etc.
It is for the proclamation and explanation of the doctrine of the salvation of all.
For instance, I speak in tongues. But if someone on here believes that is bad practice or scripturally incorrect- we are not here to debate that subject. There are other forums where those discussions are had.
Our fellowship in Jesus Christ does not have to be interrupted with judgments every time we disagree about a doctrine, unless it is one of the few truths that are fundamental to saving faith in him.
In my opinion those doctrinal truths necessary to salvation are,
The virgin birth and Jesus Christ as "the only begotten Son of God"
The sinless life of Christ in His perfect obedience and love for His Father and mankind
The sacrificial death of Christ at the cross for the forgiveness of sin
The resurrection of Jesus Christ in the body and His ascension into the heavenly realms as Lord and Savior
In my opinion these additional doctrines are necessary to successful fellowship
All members of Christ are one Body.
That the 66 books of the canon are the scriptures of the Christian faith and the basis for discussing, exploring and debating the truth.
That God has called us to love every one who is a member of the body of Christ in a special way, even if we disagree with them on some truth or another.
That God has called us to love everyone, even our enemies.
That God has called us to be gentle, patient and prayerful towards our doctrinal adversaries.
On TM we fellowship around a purpose of spreading the victorious gospel. The Restoration of All Things, The Salvation of All, Ultimate Universal Reconciliation- all through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
As Christian brothers and sisters we can discuss other general issues of doctrine and life in Christ in order to serve one another. The point at which another discussion ceases to serve and begins to create hostility and distraction from the primary purpose of the site is the point at which we moderate them to the best of our ability.
All those beliefs seemed fine to me except I'm not sure what it means to say Jesus is the only begotton Son of God without the Trinity.
I have continued concerns though because in the Old Testament there's a story where a prophet tells a man to strike him and then the man refuses and so the prophet curses him and as cursed he goes off and gets eaten by a lion, a lion!
Not behaving violently to another human seems a perfectly reasonable act of restraint from a perfectly plausible position. But apparently it isn't.
The fact is, going on the evidence God doesn't seem to be terribly flexible and that makes me doubt about things like these even when I'd like to say most everyone is right on these matters where possible one where or the other.
Quote from: CST on April 05, 2016, 08:06:24 PM
All those beliefs seemed fine to me except I'm not sure what it means to say Jesus is the only begotton Son of God without the Trinity.
How I understand the word "begotten" is first: we know Christ is also referred to as "The Word", the thoughts of the Father are words but words as one, like us thinking to ourselves, we can speak to ourselves inside our own mind.
I see the word "begotten" the same as the word "manifested", when God said "Let there be light" it is seeing Christ being manifested (begotten, being given birth to) outside of the Father as His "spoken" word. and the word "spoken" is another word that also is used in the same way as "begotten" and "manifested".
All this because we know when His Spirit moves upon our waters (thoughts) we speak out of the Divine Nature of God and manifest that nature through our words (which actually is His WORD).
my :2c:
Quote from: jugghead on April 05, 2016, 11:09:09 PM
Quote from: CST on April 05, 2016, 08:06:24 PM
All those beliefs seemed fine to me except I'm not sure what it means to say Jesus is the only begotton Son of God without the Trinity.
How I understand the word "begotten" is first: we know Christ is also referred to as "The Word", the thoughts of the Father are words but words as one, like us thinking to ourselves, we can speak to ourselves inside our own mind.
I see the word "begotten" the same as the word "manifested", when God said "Let there be light" it is seeing Christ being manifested (begotten, being given birth to) outside of the Father as His "spoken" word. and the word "spoken" is another word that also is used in the same way as "begotten" and "manifested".
All this because we know when His Spirit moves upon our waters (thoughts) we speak out of the Divine Nature of God and manifest that nature through our words (which actually is His WORD).
my :2c:
If it meant first wouldn't it be easier just to understand that.
My usual understanding of 'begotten' relates to breeding and the fact that God conceived Jesus with Mary and she gave birth to Him. Only God, the Father remains God, the Father through all of this and God can't really breed because if He literally bred there would be another God and there isn't.
But at the same time the Bible teaches that Jesus existed and was with God even before He was conceived in Mary as a human baby and the Holy Spirit was also there because the human baby we call Jesus was conceived through the Holy Spirit, which is a bit strange if we're trying to distinguish the Holy Spirit from the Father in some way.
Gee, no wonder this is confusing.
But I don't want to say any more, I think I may have said to much already.
That was how I used to understand begotten when used in scripture of Jesus. It kind of still is but I find it confusing.
Dear CST ,
I am such a simple gal and need things explained very simple and truthful , brutal even , without all the ''fluff'' .
And wanting to help you and not ''confuse you '' any further , and just share this simple run down without all the work of looking though the scriptures to explain how many of us come to our own conclusions and ability to share what the Spirit is saying , only the Spirit can ''quicken the Word and give it life in you ''
Jesus Christ come to show us the 'WAY'' the way is being born like Jesus Christ , HIS NAME under heaven by which you must be saved meaning
'''salvation anointed '' , this is important names mean things
By the Holy Spirit hovering over Mary , name meaning'' bitter , rebellion , desired child ''
Paul was telling us in other scriptures I am making you'' chaste virgins for Christ '' This to me is meaning to clean out the old mixing of flesh and spirit , by dividing it in to what is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is spirit , and the flesh does not inherit a thing of God but death , this mixing was always Babylon that is destroyed by Gods WORD being the 7 Spirits , 7 trumpets , 7 churches 7 bowels of wrath etc .. 7 means complete or total end
Now the spirit inherits all things of God .. Life , death and Christ etc , If anyone who reads the bible would note that many times the WORD OF GOD calls Jesus Christ simply the Christ in some places , meaning simply the anointed of Gods purpose and plan , or the Lord Jesus Christ , meaning the Master or teacher of the WORD OF GOD AS SALVATIONS ANOINTING
JESUS CHRIST IS THE WORD OF GOD IN ACTION , this seed planted is the CHRIST/anointing in you the hope of glory ...
this glory is Gods glory to HIS NAME SAKE
Has anyone wondered why you get a new name and new name of GOD AND HIS NEW NAME city IN REV 3 ? WHY DOES JESUS CHRIST get a new name ?
I see this as ALL the new creation , that simple ... The sons of God that come though His Word and Spirit but these NAMES are written in the BOOK OF LIFE
I will share again what the Spirit has given me when asking for His help to understand it .
And I do NOT understand it all yet , but this salvation is nearer than when I first believed in GOD as my savior , its very personal and very much the KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU , and the feelings of every emotion is real and not to be mocked or disregarded as such , you only get what you need at the times to fulfill His own desire and without faith you will not please Him and have cut yourself off . as a dead branch for another fiery trial of faith to experience and go though in this life and in His presence and of all the heavenly hosts ...
I do believe it is a process , when you begin to read the bible with your caral mind , fear grips you , that animal instinct fears the fire not understanding the plan of God at all , but fears the Lord and His wrath coming
this is when the FATHER gives you eyes to see , the first part of being healed , the written Word is the letter of the law that kills and everyone gets to experience this that believes , because we are chastened of the LORD and scourged greatly humbled and the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom
The eyes to see are able to read the Word of God in a new light , not the old light of fear and carnality that is the enemy of the HOLY SPIRIT and always speaks wrong of the things of God , that love of God has not even begin to manifest itself yet , the FULLNESS OF LOVE COMES IN THE END , but destroys the beastly nature in you by the consuming of Gods fire , God is a consuming Fire , for me that is the new and Holy one spirit given by God to remove the old Adamic nature that ate of the forbidden tree whom was defiled and corrupted bad spirit , of evil nature only to inherit in death driven out to wander this man of sin is an evil spirit and selfish and desire to rule over the soul and body as a god all of this world and demonic , now when this is removed by thew work of GOD to make the soul / or being /life force , breath of GOD able to receive the new seed /word of God ,,,
Jesus even gave an example of cleaning out the house [in mankind ] when the Spirit of God comes the first time to prepare it for HIS PRESENCE
and the 3 parts are body soul and spirit 1 Thess 5 23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass....
The second thing that happens is you get those ears to hear what the Spirit is saying , as the Word quickens in you , you begin to feel this new life moving and growing within , like a woman with child , its a part of you , yet it is of its own , a holy thing
and being submissive and obedient to you new husband or ruler of the HOUSE AS HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD and faithful ,
God is showing us how its done in everyone called out of the world and separated for Himself , being apart of the Body of Christ as the Woman church , where two in twain become ONE FLESH , this new body is filling up the earth with Holy Spirit and fire , the fire of Gods love and the fire against all things that offend , babylon her flesh is set on fire by the beasts natures , carnality as satan adversary who is used for the destruction of our mortal flesh , our mortal bodies as , His own work of salvation and anointing
part 3 the body by making the new creation as the sons of God manifest , this birthing is done in one day or 1000 year reign as satan is bound for the 1000 years and Christ reigns over all judging and making war till all enemies are destroyed that last being death as LIFE is given for the dead ,,, and given to GOD , GOD IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING , THIS LIVING WORD ACTUALLY heals others by ''touching them '' also with the LOVING VIBRATION OF LIFE ITSELF and fulfills all things
so it is the written word that becomes the spoken word and than the LIVING WORD , YOU become a part of a living epistle or letter , message of LIFE LIVING IN GOD S WORD that judges us all and LOVE IS THE END RESULT , LOVE heals restores and makes new LOVE IS WHAT THRIVES AND IS LIFE
Knowing some of this will never make sense to anyone just sharing some of the things that have been given and if they are wrong or right God knows , my heart and never intend to deceive anyone , and to help us understand what the Love of God really means to us all
I might delete this ,its not as clear as hoped , so many thoughts come to mind and hard to keep them straight forward and simple ..
Quote from: rosered on April 06, 2016, 05:36:23 PM
Dear CST ,
I am such a simple gal and need things explained very simple and truthful , brutal even , without all the "fluff" .
And wanting to help you and not "confuse you " any further , and just share this simple run down without all the work of looking though the scriptures to explain how many of us come to our own conclusions and ability to share what the Spirit is saying , only the Spirit can "quicken the Word and give it life in you "
Jesus Christ come to show us the 'WAY" the way is being born like Jesus Christ , HIS NAME under heaven by which you must be saved meaning
"'salvation anointed " , this is important names mean things
By the Holy Spirit hovering over Mary , name meaning" bitter , rebellion , desired child "
Paul was telling us in other scriptures I am making you" chaste virgins for Christ " This to me is meaning to clean out the old mixing of flesh and spirit , by dividing it in to what is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is spirit , and the flesh does not inherit a thing of God but death , this mixing was always Babylon that is destroyed by Gods WORD being the 7 Spirits , 7 trumpets , 7 churches 7 bowels of wrath etc .. 7 means complete or total end
Now the spirit inherits all things of God .. Life , death and Christ etc , If anyone who reads the bible would note that many times the WORD OF GOD calls Jesus Christ simply the Christ in some places , meaning simply the anointed of Gods purpose and plan , or the Lord Jesus Christ , meaning the Master or teacher of the WORD OF GOD AS SALVATIONS ANOINTING
JESUS CHRIST IS THE WORD OF GOD IN ACTION , this seed planted is the CHRIST/anointing in you the hope of glory ...
this glory is Gods glory to HIS NAME SAKE
Has anyone wondered why you get a new name and new name of GOD AND HIS NEW NAME city IN REV 3 ? WHY DOES JESUS CHRIST get a new name ?
I see this as ALL the new creation , that simple ... The sons of God that come though His Word and Spirit but these NAMES are written in the BOOK OF LIFE
I will share again what the Spirit has given me when asking for His help to understand it .
And I do NOT understand it all yet , but this salvation is nearer than when I first believed in GOD as my savior , its very personal and very much the KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU , and the feelings of every emotion is real and not to be mocked or disregarded as such , you only get what you need at the times to fulfill His own desire and without faith you will not please Him and have cut yourself off . as a dead branch for another fiery trial of faith to experience and go though in this life and in His presence and of all the heavenly hosts ...
I do believe it is a process , when you begin to read the bible with your caral mind , fear grips you , that animal instinct fears the fire not understanding the plan of God at all , but fears the Lord and His wrath coming
this is when the FATHER gives you eyes to see , the first part of being healed , the written Word is the letter of the law that kills and everyone gets to experience this that believes , because we are chastened of the LORD and scourged greatly humbled and the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom
The eyes to see are able to read the Word of God in a new light , not the old light of fear and carnality that is the enemy of the HOLY SPIRIT and always speaks wrong of the things of God , that love of God has not even begin to manifest itself yet , the FULLNESS OF LOVE COMES IN THE END , but destroys the beastly nature in you by the consuming of Gods fire , God is a consuming Fire , for me that is the new and Holy one spirit given by God to remove the old Adamic nature that ate of the forbidden tree whom was defiled and corrupted bad spirit , of evil nature only to inherit in death driven out to wander this man of sin is an evil spirit and selfish and desire to rule over the soul and body as a god all of this world and demonic , now when this is removed by thew work of GOD to make the soul / or being /life force , breath of GOD able to receive the new seed /word of God ,,,
Jesus even gave an example of cleaning out the house [in mankind ] when the Spirit of God comes the first time to prepare it for HIS PRESENCE
and the 3 parts are body soul and spirit 1 Thess 5 23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass....
The second thing that happens is you get those ears to hear what the Spirit is saying , as the Word quickens in you , you begin to feel this new life moving and growing within , like a woman with child , its a part of you , yet it is of its own , a holy thing
and being submissive and obedient to you new husband or ruler of the HOUSE AS HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD and faithful ,
God is showing us how its done in everyone called out of the world and separated for Himself , being apart of the Body of Christ as the Woman church , where two in twain become ONE FLESH , this new body is filling up the earth with Holy Spirit and fire , the fire of Gods love and the fire against all things that offend , babylon her flesh is set on fire by the beasts natures , carnality as satan adversary who is used for the destruction of our mortal flesh , our mortal bodies as , His own work of salvation and anointing
part 3 the body by making the new creation as the sons of God manifest , this birthing is done in one day or 1000 year reign as satan is bound for the 1000 years and Christ reigns over all judging and making war till all enemies are destroyed that last being death as LIFE is given for the dead ,,, and given to GOD , GOD IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING , THIS LIVING WORD ACTUALLY heals others by "touching them " also with the LOVING VIBRATION OF LIFE ITSELF and fulfills all things
so it is the written word that becomes the spoken word and than the LIVING WORD , YOU become a part of a living epistle or letter , message of LIFE LIVING IN GOD S WORD that judges us all and LOVE IS THE END RESULT , LOVE heals restores and makes new LOVE IS WHAT THRIVES AND IS LIFE
Knowing some of this will never make sense to anyone just sharing some of the things that have been given and if they are wrong or right God knows , my heart and never intend to deceive anyone , and to help us understand what the Love of God really means to us all
I might delete this ,its not as clear as hoped , so many thoughts come to mind and hard to keep them straight forward and simple ..
Too late! :laugh:
:smile: Seriously, keep it. We all want it simple and without the fluff but we all seem to struggle to find it. The end product of this seems to prove it. We also all seem to look at the Bible and then find fluff in certain places and substances in others and all in different places that's why we end up with these disputes in the first place. In general it does matter to me or indeed anyone else on this forum what you think as we can see your sincerity and kindness in what your trying to do and you come across really well,
Unfortunately atheists and heathens (can I say that words become 'bad' so frequently these days) come across as such when they argue about what they think. We don't have a problem with any of these people generally and wouldn't be inclined to condemn any of these people but to some degree or another we all argue to some extreme or the other decide that God will, He must for some reason. It makes everything seem very unsimple.
By the way, there's a hymn that states simply that that new name everyone gets is simply and unambiguously "love" which makes sense really although it doesn't answer all our questions and may indeed created new ones.
Excellent post Rose ..... and I agree with CST, please keep it up ..... His Word through us does not come back void, when the time is right others will glean from the corners
By your posts CST, I can tell you are walking in faith ..... which we know that it comes from the root word meaning "to convince" ..... we walk in faith when we continue on our journey of understanding in what we have already been convinced is the truth; that has come out of the Father, through Christ, by His Spirit (from the source to us and back again)
The way He taught me to deal with struggles is the example of: subjects of math
as we struggle to understand things of God is like trigonometry, but before we can understand how that works, the prerequisites are geometry and algebra and before we can even understand those subjects we first have to learn to add, subtract, multiply and divide
We may not understand trigonometry at the moment, but rest assured, He is continuing to teach us because He knows we have to understand the other subjects completely before He moves us on to the next one.
And that is the other part of faith, having faith that He will help us to understand. (from us to the source and than back again)
Blessings brother CST
Jugghead
Quote from: CST on April 05, 2016, 08:06:24 PM
All those beliefs seemed fine to me except I'm not sure what it means to say Jesus is the only begotton Son of God without the Trinity.
No, it doesnt mean that at all actually. All it means is what a person believes about the Trinity, either way,(along with most of the other doctrines people go round and round about) is not critical for salvation or necessary to fellowship in the body of Christ, or required for fellowship in TM.
We are here to share the victorious gospel. Most of our threads ought to wind back towards that area of scripture because that is the reason the Spirit established this site. In other words, that is the "word" here and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
The owner of the site prefers to keep this a "safe zone" so people from various backgrounds can come here and learn about UR without having to "pass thru the fire" of various debates and feel forced to attack or defend other doctrinal issues.
I agree with that perspective entirely.
Agreed John.
Also, to believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct entities in and of itself neither necessarily rejects or supports the classical Trinity doctrine. Many do believe in a Trinity of 3 distinct entities, and their salvation is based on the Son. Others believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct, while also believing the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father that He sends out and uses to accomplish His purposes rather than a "third Person of the Trinity". And their salvation is based on the Son. Either way, believe on the Son, crucified and risen, seek Him first. :2c:
Thank you for your understanding and also your kindness brothers .............
I forgot the 3rd thing , restoring the heart of flesh ,Jesus flesh with the heart of Love for the Father and Father for His son , the THRONE to keep the law of Love in our hearts this total healing of eyes to see and ears to hear and heart to understand total healing of spirit ,soul and body ..
For me, the hearts of stone are actually the idols , the stones of fire and idols of the heart are the worshipping one another and ''gods'' of this world in futility and vanity and all the altars made with human hands and tons of sacrifices of disobedience :sigh: , the Bible is subtle in many ways about the clues given in many places , but the clues are there
The Purpose of Jesus' Parables
...15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,to make thick, to make fat, fatten
metaph. to make stupid (to render the soul dull or callous) WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.' 16"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17"For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
The heart come when Jesus did and seek after HIM !!! Simon meaning hearing was given the name Peter '' rock'' because the rock solid foundational truth come by the FATHER [ HOLY SPIRIT ] a clean heart / white stone , or new name rev 3 we remember the process
and a subtle clue Jesus calls Him Simon twice speaking to both minds , double minded and unstable in all their ways , the carnal and spiritual one , all babes are carnally minded and have not had their faith tested or exercised yet leading to many experiences of discerning spirits , even James and John did not know what spirit they were of wanting to bring fire down from heaven to destroy those whom rejected Jesus Word to them JESUS COME TO SAVE .. heart of LOVE FOR ALL as forgiveness
Having seen my own self as Peter his name fit my very nature more than a few times , But God in His mercy and great grace Keeps being patient with us all .. Just so thankful
,31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; 32but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."
the broad path that leads to destruction of the flesh and confidence in your own abilities namely pride of life .. after this Peter is humbled , reinstated and on that narrow path that leads to LIFE
when Jesus said do you love me 3 times to Peter ? and he said ,Lord/ Master a slave does not know what the Master is doing , you know I do feed my lambs , sheep , when you are old ... become a shepherd of the flock and protect them help them out , they don't know where they are going either ... they are little lambs of God and easy prey to the evil in the world ....
"Tend My sheep. 18"Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go." 19Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me!"
I do believe those ears heard what the Spirit was saying in the way Peter died taking up his cross and following Jesus to the end .
Peter was an example of Jesus dealing with us all , given the same eyes to see and ears to hear and heart to understand what the SPOKEN WORD BY THE SPIRIT is saying and though you die in the LORD YOU WILL LIVE Jesus Christ is the resurrection/ rise up from death and the Life in all the fulness of the Godhead in bodily form .
Matthew 16:17
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
LOVE will over come all things and conquer all enemies even death , for GOD IS LOVE .
There are so very many scriptures that connect to the WHOLENESS OF KNOWING GODS LOVE for all HIS CREATION WHEN GOD IS ALL IN ALL ... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on April 06, 2016, 09:05:03 PM
Agreed John.
Also, to believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct entities in and of itself neither necessarily rejects or supports the classical Trinity doctrine. Many do believe in a Trinity of 3 distinct entities, and their salvation is based on the Son. Others believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct, while also believing the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father that He sends out and uses to accomplish His purposes rather than a "third Person of the Trinity". And their salvation is based on the Son. Either way, believe on the Son, crucified and risen, seek Him first. :2c:
Yes. Exactly. And some people believe in the trinity, but dont believe the Son is co-equal to the Father. Still, their salvation is through the Son- though they would be considered heretics by ,many schools of theology.
But praise God, we are by-passing all that! We are going straight for the heresy that all men will be saved through the Son- to the glory of God the Father. :laughing7:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 07, 2016, 12:52:37 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 06, 2016, 09:05:03 PM
Agreed John.
Also, to believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct entities in and of itself neither necessarily rejects or supports the classical Trinity doctrine. Many do believe in a Trinity of 3 distinct entities, and their salvation is based on the Son. Others believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct, while also believing the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father that He sends out and uses to accomplish His purposes rather than a "third Person of the Trinity". And their salvation is based on the Son. Either way, believe on the Son, crucified and risen, seek Him first. :2c:
Yes. Exactly. And some people believe in the trinity, but dont believe the Son is co-equal to the Father. Still, their salvation is through the Son- though they would be considered heretics by ,many schools of theology.
But praise God, we are by-passing all that! We are going straight for the heresy that all men will be saved through the Son- to the glory of God the Father. :laughing7:
:thumbsup: :banana:
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 07, 2016, 02:41:11 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on April 07, 2016, 12:52:37 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 06, 2016, 09:05:03 PM
Agreed John.
Also, to believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct entities in and of itself neither necessarily rejects or supports the classical Trinity doctrine. Many do believe in a Trinity of 3 distinct entities, and their salvation is based on the Son. Others believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct, while also believing the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father that He sends out and uses to accomplish His purposes rather than a "third Person of the Trinity". And their salvation is based on the Son. Either way, believe on the Son, crucified and risen, seek Him first. :2c:
Yes. Exactly. And some people believe in the trinity, but dont believe the Son is co-equal to the Father. Still, their salvation is through the Son- though they would be considered heretics by ,many schools of theology.
But praise God, we are by-passing all that! We are going straight for the heresy that all men will be saved through the Son- to the glory of God the Father. :laughing7:
:thumbsup: :banana:
:HeartThrob: AMEN!! So very
Thankful God KNOWS our
hearts !!!!!!!
Quote from: jugghead on April 06, 2016, 07:24:18 PM
Excellent post Rose ..... and I agree with CST, please keep it up ..... His Word through us does not come back void, when the time is right others will glean from the corners
By your posts CST, I can tell you are walking in faith ..... which we know that it comes from the root word meaning "to convince" ..... we walk in faith when we continue on our journey of understanding in what we have already been convinced is the truth; that has come out of the Father, through Christ, by His Spirit (from the source to us and back again)
The way He taught me to deal with struggles is the example of: subjects of math
as we struggle to understand things of God is like trigonometry, but before we can understand how that works, the prerequisites are geometry and algebra and before we can even understand those subjects we first have to learn to add, subtract, multiply and divide
We may not understand trigonometry at the moment, but rest assured, He is continuing to teach us because He knows we have to understand the other subjects completely before He moves us on to the next one.
And that is the other part of faith, having faith that He will help us to understand. (from us to the source and than back again)
Blessings brother CST
Jugghead
Thanks very much. The square on the hypotenuse is equal to the square on the sum of the other two sides and I know enough about trig. to know that triangles actually do have three sides.
I don't know much about language though, I was of the impression the root of the word for faith was the same one that gives us fidelity meaning 'trust'. We trust that God will do what He says He's going to do but apparently there are some conditions. <sigh> But it's a very positive post you made all the same, thank you. Blessings to you too.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 06, 2016, 08:40:26 PM
Quote from: CST on April 05, 2016, 08:06:24 PM
All those beliefs seemed fine to me except I'm not sure what it means to say Jesus is the only begotton Son of God without the Trinity.
No, it doesnt mean that at all actually. All it means is what a person believes about the Trinity, either way,(along with most of the other doctrines people go round and round about) is not critical for salvation or necessary to fellowship in the body of Christ, or required for fellowship in TM.
We are here to share the victorious gospel. Most of our threads ought to wind back towards that area of scripture because that is the reason the Spirit established this site. In other words, that is the "word" here and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
The owner of the site prefers to keep this a "safe zone" so people from various backgrounds can come here and learn about UR without having to "pass thru the fire" of various debates and feel forced to attack or defend other doctrinal issues.
I agree with that perspective entirely.
Quote from: jabcat on April 06, 2016, 09:05:03 PM
Agreed John.
Also, to believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct entities in and of itself neither necessarily rejects or supports the classical Trinity doctrine. Many do believe in a Trinity of 3 distinct entities, and their salvation is based on the Son. Others believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct, while also believing the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father that He sends out and uses to accomplish His purposes rather than a "third Person of the Trinity". And their salvation is based on the Son. Either way, believe on the Son, crucified and risen, seek Him first. :2c:
I wish this was as simple as your making it sound and must seem to you when you see it but I keep digging in my head and just coming up with more obstacles for myself.
Like, for example, you don't think this sort of dispute is pertinent for the site but at the same time one of the guidelines of Tentmaker is that we don't believe that all roads leads to God. A Muslim or a Jew or a Hindu can be as sincere as they like but they won't be saved in the first order. And this is fine because if people worship the wrong god in the wrong way they are committing idolatry. And idolatry is very bad. It means that the offender is not reconciled and is a bad relationship with God. And if they not reconciled they aren't saved, is that right? Have I understood that correctly.
But here's the thing a lot of people who are opposed to the Trinity Christians and non-Christians tend to declare and you can understand there reasoning that Jesus is not God and anyone who believes He is God and worships Him as such is committing idolatry. And if they're right it's hard to see anyone worshiping the 'false god' of Jesus not being punished for idolatry.
But it is also written in the law that people who accuse people of offenses such as idolatry when they are not guilty of it they they should receive the punishment the one they accused would have received, i.e. death.
And this does really seem unfair and Jesus declared that anyone who acknowledges Him before others He will acknowledge before God and anyone who denies Him before other He will deny before God. So how much of 'Him' are we meant to be acknowledging. And is it not idolatry to deny that Jesus is God when in fact He is God. Idolatry is a big deal.
And that's confusing me.
Quote from: rosered on April 06, 2016, 09:31:10 PM
Thank you for your understanding and also your kindness brothers .............
I forgot the 3rd thing , restoring the heart of flesh ,Jesus flesh with the heart of Love for the Father and Father for His son , the THRONE to keep the law of Love in our hearts this total healing of eyes to see and ears to hear and heart to understand total healing of spirit ,soul and body ..
For me, the hearts of stone are actually the idols , the stones of fire and idols of the heart are the worshipping one another and "gods" of this world in futility and vanity and all the altars made with human hands and tons of sacrifices of disobedience :sigh: , the Bible is subtle in many ways about the clues given in many places , but the clues are there
The Purpose of Jesus' Parables
...15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,to make thick, to make fat, fatten
metaph. to make stupid (to render the soul dull or callous) WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.' 16"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17"For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
The heart come when Jesus did and seek after HIM !!! Simon meaning hearing was given the name Peter " rock" because the rock solid foundational truth come by the FATHER [ HOLY SPIRIT ] a clean heart / white stone , or new name rev 3 we remember the process
and a subtle clue Jesus calls Him Simon twice speaking to both minds , double minded and unstable in all their ways , the carnal and spiritual one , all babes are carnally minded and have not had their faith tested or exercised yet leading to many experiences of discerning spirits , even James and John did not know what spirit they were of wanting to bring fire down from heaven to destroy those whom rejected Jesus Word to them JESUS COME TO SAVE .. heart of LOVE FOR ALL as forgiveness
Having seen my own self as Peter his name fit my very nature more than a few times , But God in His mercy and great grace Keeps being patient with us all .. Just so thankful
,31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; 32but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."
the broad path that leads to destruction of the flesh and confidence in your own abilities namely pride of life .. after this Peter is humbled , reinstated and on that narrow path that leads to LIFE
when Jesus said do you love me 3 times to Peter ? and he said ,Lord/ Master a slave does not know what the Master is doing , you know I do feed my lambs , sheep , when you are old ... become a shepherd of the flock and protect them help them out , they don't know where they are going either ... they are little lambs of God and easy prey to the evil in the world ....
"Tend My sheep. 18"Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go." 19Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me!"
I do believe those ears heard what the Spirit was saying in the way Peter died taking up his cross and following Jesus to the end .
Peter was an example of Jesus dealing with us all , given the same eyes to see and ears to hear and heart to understand what the SPOKEN WORD BY THE SPIRIT is saying and though you die in the LORD YOU WILL LIVE Jesus Christ is the resurrection/ rise up from death and the Life in all the fulness of the Godhead in bodily form .
Matthew 16:17
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
LOVE will over come all things and conquer all enemies even death , for GOD IS LOVE .
There are so very many scriptures that connect to the WHOLENESS OF KNOWING GODS LOVE for all HIS CREATION WHEN GOD IS ALL IN ALL ... :HeartThrob:
Thank you, Rosered.
I can't help noticing there seems to be initial irony as well as truth in naming Peter so, the point of the rock is that it's firm but he was frequently very shaky according to the stories about him. Very effective too, mind.
Quote from: CST on April 07, 2016, 07:58:43 PM
Quote from: jugghead on April 06, 2016, 07:24:18 PM
Excellent post Rose ..... and I agree with CST, please keep it up ..... His Word through us does not come back void, when the time is right others will glean from the corners
By your posts CST, I can tell you are walking in faith ..... which we know that it comes from the root word meaning "to convince" ..... we walk in faith when we continue on our journey of understanding in what we have already been convinced is the truth; that has come out of the Father, through Christ, by His Spirit (from the source to us and back again)
The way He taught me to deal with struggles is the example of: subjects of math
as we struggle to understand things of God is like trigonometry, but before we can understand how that works, the prerequisites are geometry and algebra and before we can even understand those subjects we first have to learn to add, subtract, multiply and divide
We may not understand trigonometry at the moment, but rest assured, He is continuing to teach us because He knows we have to understand the other subjects completely before He moves us on to the next one.
And that is the other part of faith, having faith that He will help us to understand. (from us to the source and than back again)
Blessings brother CST
Jugghead
Thanks very much. The square on the hypotenuse is equal to the square on the sum of the other two sides and I know enough about trig. to know that triangles actually do have three sides.
I don't know much about language though, I was of the impression the root of the word for faith was the same one that gives us fidelity meaning 'trust'. We trust that God will do what He says He's going to do but apparently there are some conditions. <sigh> But it's a very positive post you made all the same, thank you. Blessings to you too.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 06, 2016, 08:40:26 PM
Quote from: CST on April 05, 2016, 08:06:24 PM
All those beliefs seemed fine to me except I'm not sure what it means to say Jesus is the only begotton Son of God without the Trinity.
No, it doesnt mean that at all actually. All it means is what a person believes about the Trinity, either way,(along with most of the other doctrines people go round and round about) is not critical for salvation or necessary to fellowship in the body of Christ, or required for fellowship in TM.
We are here to share the victorious gospel. Most of our threads ought to wind back towards that area of scripture because that is the reason the Spirit established this site. In other words, that is the "word" here and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
The owner of the site prefers to keep this a "safe zone" so people from various backgrounds can come here and learn about UR without having to "pass thru the fire" of various debates and feel forced to attack or defend other doctrinal issues.
I agree with that perspective entirely.
Quote from: jabcat on April 06, 2016, 09:05:03 PM
Agreed John.
Also, to believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct entities in and of itself neither necessarily rejects or supports the classical Trinity doctrine. Many do believe in a Trinity of 3 distinct entities, and their salvation is based on the Son. Others believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct, while also believing the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father that He sends out and uses to accomplish His purposes rather than a "third Person of the Trinity". And their salvation is based on the Son. Either way, believe on the Son, crucified and risen, seek Him first. :2c:
I wish this was as simple as your making it sound and must seem to you when you see it but I keep digging in my head and just coming up with more obstacles for myself.
Like, for example, you don't think this sort of dispute is pertinent for the site but at the same time one of the guidelines of Tentmaker is that we don't believe that all roads leads to God. A Muslim or a Jew or a Hindu can be as sincere as they like but they won't be saved in the first order. And this is fine because if people worship the wrong god in the wrong way they are committing idolatry. And idolatry is very bad. It means that the offender is not reconciled and is a bad relationship with God. And if they not reconciled they aren't saved, is that right? Have I understood that correctly.
But here's the thing a lot of people who are opposed to the Trinity Christians and non-Christians tend to declare and you can understand there reasoning that Jesus is not God and anyone who believes He is God and worships Him as such is committing idolatry. And if they're right it's hard to see anyone worshiping the 'false god' of Jesus not being punished for idolatry.
But it is also written in the law that people who accuse people of offenses such as idolatry when they are not guilty of it they they should receive the punishment the one they accused would have received, i.e. death.
And this does really seem unfair and Jesus declared that anyone who acknowledges Him before others He will acknowledge before God and anyone who denies Him before other He will deny before God. So how much of 'Him' are we meant to be acknowledging. And is it not idolatry to deny that Jesus is God when in fact He is God. Idolatry is a big deal.
And that's confusing me.
But nothing that's said above denies Jesus is God. I personally (as well as many others here) believe He is. Just God the Son (of the same Substance, Being) - not God the Father - but still God. That can be believed and still believe EITHER of the views expressed above about the Trinity. Believing the Holy Spirit is a "third Person" of a Trinity, or the Spirit of God that He sends out to indwell and work His purposes, has nothing necessarily to negate Jesus being God, the Savior, etc. Hope that helps.
I think what underscores a lot of your concern about getting it "right" is that you want to do what is right to please God and secure your salvation.
For me, believing in UR has mostly removed that fear for me. We don't have to worry about getting it right OR ELSE...because we know God is love and cares deeply for us all and we will ultimately be corrected in love and united with Him.
How we experience God's corrections has to do with our own state of mind. If we resist God and feel we know best, it will be a negative experience. If we are open to His corrections it will be easier to endure. Think of how different people in the bible experience the fire of God---there was no fear on Pentecost because the people who experienced tongues of fire were followers of Christ. Moses spoke to the burning bush and said "Here I am" instead of running away, but he did have some level of fear of looking directly at the bush, the Israelites in Exodus were not afraid of the pillar of fire (God) and He led them.
Those are really good words GodisLove,
We dont hav to fear because we know God loves everyone and is causing all things to work together for good. He is not standing over us with a ruler on our beliefs. He is loving us and teaching us how to be mature in love.
Yes it is John , Thanks Godislove for your thoughtful message of hope .,
For me it is called faith believing , without faith it is impossible to please God ..
I do believe faithlessness was the sin of idolatry
Faith , hope and love , but the greatest of these is love .
It is putting all your confidence in God alone and none in yourself or others because we are prone to failures ,But God whom is Love never fails
obedience is to let faith in God work in love with no other motive but to help us all come together as Unity in the Body of Christ as the Light of the world .it is no longer us whom live but the LORD JESUS CHRIST whom lives in us . His life to be made known in the earth .
...4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all....
Waking each other up to become spiritually conscience of the presence of Gods love , there is nothing worse than feeling you are unloved and unwanted and not needed, ALONE , and LOVE works both ways like that , we are to LOVE GOD first now aware , because He loved us first and gave Himself for us while we were yet sinners and working against Him, [scattering ] and not for Him[gathering ] .
Quote from: rosered on April 08, 2016, 01:04:11 PM
Yes it is John , Thanks Godislove for your thoughtful message of hope .,
For me it is called faith believing , without faith it is impossible to please God ..
I do believe faithlessness was the sin of idolatry
Faith , hope and love , but the greatest of these is love .
It is putting all your confidence in God alone and none in yourself or others because we are prone to failures ,But God whom is Love never fails
obedience is to let faith in God work in love with no other motive but to help us all come together as Unity in the Body of Christ as the Light of the world .it is no longer us whom live but the LORD JESUS CHRIST whom lives in us . His life to be made known in the earth .
...4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all....
Waking each other up to become spiritually conscience of the presence of Gods love , there is nothing worse than feeling you are unloved and unwanted and not needed, ALONE , and LOVE works both ways like that , we are to LOVE GOD first now aware , because He loved us first and gave Himself for us while we were yet sinners and working against Him, [scattering ] and not for Him[gathering ] .
Excellent post Rose ..... and what came to mind when I read what I highlighted can be summed up in one phrase, that being ....
Without purpose
Quote from: jabcat on April 07, 2016, 10:10:29 PM
Quote from: CST on April 07, 2016, 07:58:43 PM
Quote from: jugghead on April 06, 2016, 07:24:18 PM
Excellent post Rose ..... and I agree with CST, please keep it up ..... His Word through us does not come back void, when the time is right others will glean from the corners
By your posts CST, I can tell you are walking in faith ..... which we know that it comes from the root word meaning "to convince" ..... we walk in faith when we continue on our journey of understanding in what we have already been convinced is the truth; that has come out of the Father, through Christ, by His Spirit (from the source to us and back again)
The way He taught me to deal with struggles is the example of: subjects of math
as we struggle to understand things of God is like trigonometry, but before we can understand how that works, the prerequisites are geometry and algebra and before we can even understand those subjects we first have to learn to add, subtract, multiply and divide
We may not understand trigonometry at the moment, but rest assured, He is continuing to teach us because He knows we have to understand the other subjects completely before He moves us on to the next one.
And that is the other part of faith, having faith that He will help us to understand. (from us to the source and than back again)
Blessings brother CST
Jugghead
Thanks very much. The square on the hypotenuse is equal to the square on the sum of the other two sides and I know enough about trig. to know that triangles actually do have three sides.
I don't know much about language though, I was of the impression the root of the word for faith was the same one that gives us fidelity meaning 'trust'. We trust that God will do what He says He's going to do but apparently there are some conditions. <sigh> But it's a very positive post you made all the same, thank you. Blessings to you too.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 06, 2016, 08:40:26 PM
Quote from: CST on April 05, 2016, 08:06:24 PM
All those beliefs seemed fine to me except I'm not sure what it means to say Jesus is the only begotton Son of God without the Trinity.
No, it doesnt mean that at all actually. All it means is what a person believes about the Trinity, either way,(along with most of the other doctrines people go round and round about) is not critical for salvation or necessary to fellowship in the body of Christ, or required for fellowship in TM.
We are here to share the victorious gospel. Most of our threads ought to wind back towards that area of scripture because that is the reason the Spirit established this site. In other words, that is the "word" here and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
The owner of the site prefers to keep this a "safe zone" so people from various backgrounds can come here and learn about UR without having to "pass thru the fire" of various debates and feel forced to attack or defend other doctrinal issues.
I agree with that perspective entirely.
Quote from: jabcat on April 06, 2016, 09:05:03 PM
Agreed John.
Also, to believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct entities in and of itself neither necessarily rejects or supports the classical Trinity doctrine. Many do believe in a Trinity of 3 distinct entities, and their salvation is based on the Son. Others believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct, while also believing the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father that He sends out and uses to accomplish His purposes rather than a "third Person of the Trinity". And their salvation is based on the Son. Either way, believe on the Son, crucified and risen, seek Him first. :2c:
I wish this was as simple as your making it sound and must seem to you when you see it but I keep digging in my head and just coming up with more obstacles for myself.
Like, for example, you don't think this sort of dispute is pertinent for the site but at the same time one of the guidelines of Tentmaker is that we don't believe that all roads leads to God. A Muslim or a Jew or a Hindu can be as sincere as they like but they won't be saved in the first order. And this is fine because if people worship the wrong god in the wrong way they are committing idolatry. And idolatry is very bad. It means that the offender is not reconciled and is a bad relationship with God. And if they not reconciled they aren't saved, is that right? Have I understood that correctly.
But here's the thing a lot of people who are opposed to the Trinity Christians and non-Christians tend to declare and you can understand there reasoning that Jesus is not God and anyone who believes He is God and worships Him as such is committing idolatry. And if they're right it's hard to see anyone worshiping the 'false god' of Jesus not being punished for idolatry.
But it is also written in the law that people who accuse people of offenses such as idolatry when they are not guilty of it they they should receive the punishment the one they accused would have received, i.e. death.
And this does really seem unfair and Jesus declared that anyone who acknowledges Him before others He will acknowledge before God and anyone who denies Him before other He will deny before God. So how much of 'Him' are we meant to be acknowledging. And is it not idolatry to deny that Jesus is God when in fact He is God. Idolatry is a big deal.
And that's confusing me.
But nothing that's said above denies Jesus is God. I personally (as well as many others here) believe He is. Just God the Son (of the same Substance, Being) - not God the Father - but still God. That can be believed and still believe EITHER of the views expressed above about the Trinity. Believing the Holy Spirit is a "third Person" of a Trinity, or the Spirit of God that He sends out to indwell and work His purposes, has nothing necessarily to negate Jesus being God, the Savior, etc. Hope that helps.
I am talking about the research I have done when I've encountered the suggestion that some "Christian" groups who reject the Trinity simultaneously reject the idea that Jesus is God. Obviously we believe He is God and obviously He must somehow be part of God because He's not a separate God, is He?
I do see your main point that perhaps other controversies over the Trinity may well be less than the claim that Jesus isn't God, but the claim is made by some and it seems to be a big deal.
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 08, 2016, 02:38:11 AM
I think what underscores a lot of your concern about getting it "right" is that you want to do what is right to please God and secure your salvation.
For me, believing in UR has mostly removed that fear for me. We don't have to worry about getting it right OR ELSE...because we know God is love and cares deeply for us all and we will ultimately be corrected in love and united with Him.
How we experience God's corrections has to do with our own state of mind. If we resist God and feel we know best, it will be a negative experience. If we are open to His corrections it will be easier to endure. Think of how different people in the bible experience the fire of God---there was no fear on Pentecost because the people who experienced tongues of fire were followers of Christ. Moses spoke to the burning bush and said "Here I am" instead of running away, but he did have some level of fear of looking directly at the bush, the Israelites in Exodus were not afraid of the pillar of fire (God) and He led them.
Sort of, what concerns me is that, to say it again, salvation in your future won't change your past and obviously I never want to have going to Hell in my past and I might if I get it wrong or teach other it wrong. To me Universal Reconciliation isn't a security blanket so I can think "never mind I'll go to Heaven eventually". Hell is well worth avoiding, avoid!
But I do no there's absolutely nothing I can do about the outcome but that doesn't make me anymore comfortable.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 08, 2016, 11:48:02 AM
Those are really good words GodisLove,
We dont hav to fear because we know God loves everyone and is causing all things to work together for good. He is not standing over us with a ruler on our beliefs. He is loving us and teaching us how to be mature in love.
No, we have the ruler. "The measure you give is the measure you shall receive."
Quote from: rosered on April 08, 2016, 01:04:11 PM
Yes it is John , Thanks Godislove for your thoughtful message of hope .,
For me it is called faith believing , without faith it is impossible to please God ..
I do believe faithlessness was the sin of idolatry
Faith , hope and love , but the greatest of these is love .
It is putting all your confidence in God alone and none in yourself or others because we are prone to failures ,But God whom is Love never fails
obedience is to let faith in God work in love with no other motive but to help us all come together as Unity in the Body of Christ as the Light of the world .it is no longer us whom live but the LORD JESUS CHRIST whom lives in us . His life to be made known in the earth .
...4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all....
Waking each other up to become spiritually conscience of the presence of Gods love , there is nothing worse than feeling you are unloved and unwanted and not needed, ALONE , and LOVE works both ways like that , we are to LOVE GOD first now aware , because He loved us first and gave Himself for us while we were yet sinners and working against Him, [scattering ] and not for Him[gathering ] .
:smile: Oh, it would be nice if that was exactly what the definition of idolatry is. Of course it's still hard to be sure the faith any of us have is the right faith. Sigh, as it is I feel all those things quite frequently.
Quote from: jugghead on April 08, 2016, 03:49:19 PM
Quote from: rosered on April 08, 2016, 01:04:11 PM
Yes it is John , Thanks Godislove for your thoughtful message of hope .,
For me it is called faith believing , without faith it is impossible to please God ..
I do believe faithlessness was the sin of idolatry
Faith , hope and love , but the greatest of these is love .
It is putting all your confidence in God alone and none in yourself or others because we are prone to failures ,But God whom is Love never fails
obedience is to let faith in God work in love with no other motive but to help us all come together as Unity in the Body of Christ as the Light of the world .it is no longer us whom live but the LORD JESUS CHRIST whom lives in us . His life to be made known in the earth .
...4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all....
Waking each other up to become spiritually conscience of the presence of Gods love , there is nothing worse than feeling you are unloved and unwanted and not needed, ALONE , and LOVE works both ways like that , we are to LOVE GOD first now aware , because He loved us first and gave Himself for us while we were yet sinners and working against Him, [scattering ] and not for Him[gathering ] .
Excellent post Rose ..... and what came to mind when I read what I highlighted can be summed up in one phrase, that being ....
Without purpose
And that too.
It may be something you'll need to just pray for what God wants you to see, and for His peace in the midst of it. :Peace2:
I agree James. Sometimes just resting and digesting in trust that the Lord loves us is all we can do while the brain and the concepts and the info settle and the mind of the Lord begins to come up on the horizon.
I do know this for certain. I have been a believer for 40 years. There were things i though i would never understand. I would read verses of scripture and just spin around in my head. After all this time I can say God has been faithful to show me all I have asked Him and more, and the words by which I was saved as a young man still grant me hope, guidance and assurance to this day.
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9"Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10"Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!"
Quote
:smile: Oh, it would be nice if that was exactly what the definition of idolatry is.
If I may, I wanted to move away from those many call "heathen" for a moment and look at another aspect which I personally think is more real and vital in its application.
In my opinion, anything – anything – which comes in between a man or a woman and their God – then that is an idol.
I personally give more weight to Christ's teachings than the teachings of men, so when He says to love ones neighbour, I assign a greater importance to how a person treats another person, his or her attitude towards another – than to the current theological belief held in the mind of that person.
What, I ask myself, has man established in the homes where he lives, in his civic buildings, in his places of worship?
Some there are who have gifted minds which they use for material ambition, some who have physical externals both of flesh and brick which the world admires greatly. As time passes, the gathering of the possessions of the world are sought, the amassing of material power, the adoration of the masses in what the world calls fame.
Idols are all around, idols and more idols. And there is no room, no place, no space for the God who has given all. Unimportance, non-recognition – these are shunned in favour of being a material power and influence in the locality which has been built through by the worship of idols.
And envy arises in the minds of the masses as they wish all these worldly gains were theirs. But they are foolish because they have not understood that by self-denial, by simple things, by travelling the Christ Road, so the riches of the Spirit are being built up moment by moment and preserved by a caring Father God for a short time ahead – a time when all that pomp, adulation and physical treasure has been removed from the possessor - a time when all those idols can no longer bring to him or her the worldly fame and riches often gathered at the cost of the effort and pain of others – a time when those ones who suffered to bring to the selfish ones their worldly gains are imbued with strengths and powers which cannot be wrested from them while those who amassed earthly greatness must now look upon them from their position of spiritual poverty.
Other idols there are too of a different constitution, those which cast a shroud over the Gentle Jesus. The scientist who desires more than anything else to be the one remembered as he attempts to reveal earthly secrets to an amazed world, and in so doing he has become ignorant and indifferent of the suffering of others, so oblivious to the caring Creator who could bring such a wealth of help if only the scientist was humble enough to pray for guidance. But instead he has put God last and the Earth comes first – and these things, I believe, will take much anguish to work out before he knows the happiness that God would give him.
Then there is the collector, the one who travels the world for vases, paintings, sculptures and all those objects which he prizes above all else, those things of which he never stops talking about to others or adoring even in his heart. Idols come first, and even the Master Builder Himself is not even given a thought. The spiritual bankruptcy of this idol-worshipper, so I believe, will mean that he will have to watch those who were unknown, unthought-of by the world, those who quietly did their duty to the best of their ability – he will have to watch with self-imposed torment these others gifted by the power of a generous God creating real sweet beauty in their own conditions while he remembers his earthly treasure and now sees it as a perversion of the real Divine beauty of God.
Then there is the one totally immersed in creating sounds that cause the base passions to arise in the masses, whose life revolved solely around these idols, having not a thought for the Creator of the sweet melodies and angelic sounds which one time the one who abused his gift will have to learn about with much pathos, who, through his ignorance, smirked at those who, through great effort, wrote down but a few simple lines of prose or poetry, but lines which instructed about and revealed the glory of God.
The humble Christ, He is not known or welcomed by those who worship worldly idols in all their various forms - idols which banish God from the consciousness - where there is no place for an obedient will and a contrite and humble heart.
Idols in the churches where all is exhibition – so distracting from the One who was born into poverty. Or even the churches in the hearts of the earthly with their superior positions, their petty jealousies and their clever words, who long to see a display of power where the gentle Jesus returns with legion upon legion of avenging angels sporting murderous cries to force all who would challenge their authority upon their knees. How they forget the hardship and the persecution of the Christ Way, and instead they demand a display of power and might – worldly idols.
Blessed are the pure in heart said the Christ of God, yet so many spare not even a thought for the One True God, because they spend all their time in front of shrines set out to the idols of the Earth.
As I said, I believe that anything – anything – that is found to be even slightly like an idol which stands between Christ the Saviour and one's real self, must be identified with rigorous honesty and cast out.
The gifts of the hands and the mind should construct only that which has God in it, which works for the spiritual benefit of others, which draws out effort for the sake of others, paying no heed to the jeers of the world nor the pangs of heart or body.
The idols of this false world of good and evil to which the eyes have opened – these idols are not wanted! There is the One True God who is Good – there is the sweet and tender Saviour who is the expressed reflection of the Godhead no less – who then, I ask myself, would not want to worship the One True God? Worshipping only the Good - which is the only Reality – can be done right now this very second, and, in so doing, His lambs, His sheep, will receive nourishment.
That is my opinion.
Peace in Service
Yes lastpost, I agree. if Jesus is the image of the One True God, Why would anyone not embrace such a God as that. One who would suffer and die for the love of people who did not regard him as anything special because He didnt have the looks, the worldly pedigree, or the kind of wealth and might unto which they were enslaved.
I would say that to a great extent itis because they cannot see Him for who He really is in character and love, because of all the idols that tower against the horizon bearing His name, but lacking His Heart and Mind. And because where one's treasure is, there also will be their heart.... but in order to treasure Him they must see Him as He is.
I can only describe what the Spirit is showing me personally about OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST ,as His name is known under heaven in the world and graves below , HE HOLDS IT ALL WITHIN HIMSELF as being the LAMB slain from the foundation of the WORLD and HE IS REMOVING EVERYTHING outside His OWN BODY ,ITS MASSIVE and uncontained , but being set in order ,
God is a God of order , as the dead and living are found within HIMSELF to be presented to GOD FULLY ALIVE IN THE END as HE IS SUBJECTED TO THE FATHER HIMSELF .. His feet are the burnished bronze and glow in the furnace / oven of affliction , judgments in the earth EGYPT THE OVEN , AS hIS FEET/TEACHING TOUCH THE EARTH as we are received as sons of God though suffering ...
I promise I did not learn this from no man .... I give GOD ALL THE GLORY , HONOR AND PRAISE and unable to hold my peace about it .
...9"For the sake of My name I delay My wrath, And for My praise I restrain it for you, In order not to cut you off. 10"Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. 11"For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another.
Deuteronomy 4:20
But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.
1 Kings 8:51
for they are your people and your inheritance, whom you brought out of Egypt, out of that iron-smelting furnace.
Psalm 66:10
For you, God, tested us; you refined us like silver.
Isaiah 27:9
By this, then, will Jacob's guilt be atoned for, and this will be the full fruit of the removal of his sin: When he makes all the altar stones to be like limestone crushed to pieces, no Asherah poles or incense altars will be left standing.
Jeremiah 9:7
Therefore this is what the LORD Almighty says: "See, I will refine and test them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?
Jeremiah 11:4
the terms I commanded your ancestors when I brought them out of Egypt, out of the iron-smelting furnace.' I said, 'Obey me and do everything I command you, and you will be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 22:18
"Son of man, the people of Israel have become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver.
Zechariah 13:9
This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"
John's Vision on Patmos
...14His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.
15His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength....
Ezekiel 1:7
Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze.
Ezekiel 1:24
When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.
Ezekiel 40:3
He took me there, and I saw a man whose appearance was like bronze; he was standing in the gateway with a linen cord and a measuring rod in his hand.
Ezekiel 43:2
and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory.
Daniel 10:6
His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.
Revelation 2:18
"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.
unbelief is the worlds test in idolatry as A New Heaven and a New Earth in the Body of Christ is being formed ALIVE BY THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IN WORD AND DEED ,,
...7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
The second death harms 1John 5 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. 18We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. burning AND HARMS US ...Jesus said, "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." (Revelation 2:11)
TURNING one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so in the DAY OF THE LORD his Spirit will be saved has been harmed in death [ known the depths of satan knowing evil in the world /Egypt ] the furnace of affliction is a fire of Gods consuming the earth / EGYPT to come out of .... into the feet of Christ His teaching and victory over sin and death being the lusts of the flesh ..
1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
Galatians 5:19
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
Galatians 5:20
idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
1 Timothy 1:10
for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
Revelation 2:11
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
Revelation 9:17
The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.
Revelation 9:21
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Revelation 14:10
they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
Revelation 19:20
But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Revelation 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
in the world , is lying sin which is death , we all enter the Body of Christ though His feet teaching us His righteousness touching the earth who would return as a dog to its own vomit want to endure a second death ? only to be harmed by the lake of fire ? sadly those whom were once given God grace , but will suffer in more ways without His protection as kings of the earth / Pharaohs with hardened hearts by God allowing them to harden and their own stubbornness to submit not keeping from the evil one ... stubbornness is the sin of idolatry
...22Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.
23"For rebellion ''an act of violent or open resistance to an established government or ruler. is as the sin of divination, And insubordination defiance of authority; refusal to obey orders., as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He has also rejected you from being king."
reigned as kings without us Do Not Be Proud , the sin being, the pride of life .
...7For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? 8You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed,
I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you.
9For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men....
we all are learning we cannot LIVE without Gods Spirit and Life in us at all , but suffer at the hands of evil continually as dead to God in this world being His footstool ...a footstool
to make one a footstool of one's feet, i.e. to subject, to reduce under one's power
metaph. taken from the practice of conquerors who placed their feet on the necks of their conquered enemies
a foot, both of men or beast
often in the orient, one put his foot on vanquished
of disciples listening to their teacher's instruction are said to be at his feet
Quote from: eaglesway on April 08, 2016, 11:40:28 PM
I agree James. Sometimes just resting and digesting in trust that the Lord loves us is all we can do while the brain and the concepts and the info settle and the mind of the Lord begins to come up on the horizon.
I do know this for certain. I have been a believer for 40 years. There were things i though i would never understand. I would read verses of scripture and just spin around in my head. After all this time I can say God has been faithful to show me all I have asked Him and more, and the words by which I was saved as a young man still grant me hope, guidance and assurance to this day.
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9"Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10"Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!"
Yeah, that's not really my experience of God and prayer but, of course, I don't really expect to get everything I pray for certainly not all of it immediately, and not all of it at all.
On this matter people having been trying to resolve this matter for nearly 2000 years no doubt sincerely and in prayer often and God hasn't given them a final answer why should I be so conceited as to believe he'll give an answer to me?
Quote from: lastpost on April 08, 2016, 11:53:33 PM
Quote
:smile: Oh, it would be nice if that was exactly what the definition of idolatry is.
If I may, I wanted to move away from those many call "heathen" for a moment and look at another aspect which I personally think is more real and vital in its application.
In my opinion, anything – anything – which comes in between a man or a woman and their God – then that is an idol.
I personally give more weight to Christ's teachings than the teachings of men, so when He says to love ones neighbour, I assign a greater importance to how a person treats another person, his or her attitude towards another – than to the current theological belief held in the mind of that person.
What, I ask myself, has man established in the homes where he lives, in his civic buildings, in his places of worship?
Some there are who have gifted minds which they use for material ambition, some who have physical externals both of flesh and brick which the world admires greatly. As time passes, the gathering of the possessions of the world are sought, the amassing of material power, the adoration of the masses in what the world calls fame.
Idols are all around, idols and more idols. And there is no room, no place, no space for the God who has given all. Unimportance, non-recognition – these are shunned in favour of being a material power and influence in the locality which has been built through by the worship of idols.
And envy arises in the minds of the masses as they wish all these worldly gains were theirs. But they are foolish because they have not understood that by self-denial, by simple things, by travelling the Christ Road, so the riches of the Spirit are being built up moment by moment and preserved by a caring Father God for a short time ahead – a time when all that pomp, adulation and physical treasure has been removed from the possessor - a time when all those idols can no longer bring to him or her the worldly fame and riches often gathered at the cost of the effort and pain of others – a time when those ones who suffered to bring to the selfish ones their worldly gains are imbued with strengths and powers which cannot be wrested from them while those who amassed earthly greatness must now look upon them from their position of spiritual poverty.
Other idols there are too of a different constitution, those which cast a shroud over the Gentle Jesus. The scientist who desires more than anything else to be the one remembered as he attempts to reveal earthly secrets to an amazed world, and in so doing he has become ignorant and indifferent of the suffering of others, so oblivious to the caring Creator who could bring such a wealth of help if only the scientist was humble enough to pray for guidance. But instead he has put God last and the Earth comes first – and these things, I believe, will take much anguish to work out before he knows the happiness that God would give him.
Then there is the collector, the one who travels the world for vases, paintings, sculptures and all those objects which he prizes above all else, those things of which he never stops talking about to others or adoring even in his heart. Idols come first, and even the Master Builder Himself is not even given a thought. The spiritual bankruptcy of this idol-worshipper, so I believe, will mean that he will have to watch those who were unknown, unthought-of by the world, those who quietly did their duty to the best of their ability – he will have to watch with self-imposed torment these others gifted by the power of a generous God creating real sweet beauty in their own conditions while he remembers his earthly treasure and now sees it as a perversion of the real Divine beauty of God.
Then there is the one totally immersed in creating sounds that cause the base passions to arise in the masses, whose life revolved solely around these idols, having not a thought for the Creator of the sweet melodies and angelic sounds which one time the one who abused his gift will have to learn about with much pathos, who, through his ignorance, smirked at those who, through great effort, wrote down but a few simple lines of prose or poetry, but lines which instructed about and revealed the glory of God.
The humble Christ, He is not known or welcomed by those who worship worldly idols in all their various forms - idols which banish God from the consciousness - where there is no place for an obedient will and a contrite and humble heart.
Idols in the churches where all is exhibition – so distracting from the One who was born into poverty. Or even the churches in the hearts of the earthly with their superior positions, their petty jealousies and their clever words, who long to see a display of power where the gentle Jesus returns with legion upon legion of avenging angels sporting murderous cries to force all who would challenge their authority upon their knees. How they forget the hardship and the persecution of the Christ Way, and instead they demand a display of power and might – worldly idols.
Blessed are the pure in heart said the Christ of God, yet so many spare not even a thought for the One True God, because they spend all their time in front of shrines set out to the idols of the Earth.
As I said, I believe that anything – anything – that is found to be even slightly like an idol which stands between Christ the Saviour and one's real self, must be identified with rigorous honesty and cast out.
The gifts of the hands and the mind should construct only that which has God in it, which works for the spiritual benefit of others, which draws out effort for the sake of others, paying no heed to the jeers of the world nor the pangs of heart or body.
The idols of this false world of good and evil to which the eyes have opened – these idols are not wanted! There is the One True God who is Good – there is the sweet and tender Saviour who is the expressed reflection of the Godhead no less – who then, I ask myself, would not want to worship the One True God? Worshipping only the Good - which is the only Reality – can be done right now this very second, and, in so doing, His lambs, His sheep, will receive nourishment.
That is my opinion.
Peace in Service
Yeah, the problem with that is that it is simultaneously totally meaningful and not at all meaningful. Jesus did say "Love they neighbor..." but ahead of that He put "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." Even your neighbor coming between you and God is bad.
But we can't see God, and we can't see what people really real about God so we can't know really whether they really value A, B or C above God. But we know they probably won't have seen God and anything else they've been attracted to whatever it is that God made. God's demand to be put first isn't illogical or unreasonable. But it does seem illogical and unreasonable to ask us to abandon them completely because He made us made them and them plucked us all on this Earth which He made what just so they could trap us and prove none of us are going to be loyal to a divine being we haven't met so far as we no. That just seems sneaky.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 09, 2016, 12:08:08 AM
Yes lastpost, I agree. if Jesus is the image of the One True God, Why would anyone not embrace such a God as that. One who would suffer and die for the love of people who did not regard him as anything special because He didnt have the looks, the worldly pedigree, or the kind of wealth and might unto which they were enslaved.
I would say that to a great extent itis because they cannot see Him for who He really is in character and love, because of all the idols that tower against the horizon bearing His name, but lacking His Heart and Mind. And because where one's treasure is, there also will be their heart.... but in order to treasure Him they must see Him as He is.
And at the moment a lot of them see Him as the mean guy who sends most everyone to Hell to suffer forever endless torments at the hands of Satan and his demons who rule it.
There's a few huge idols right there.
To Rosered (sorry, your post put me over the character limit when I quoted it),
Wow, and I thought we were a UR site. There's a fair few quotes in there ETers love. Like God delaying His wrath for example. If He's doing that then it suggests all the more vicious punishments are due now and if He's doing it for the sake of His name they can argue He isn't doing it because He might want to be merciful and not hurt those who deserve it. But that depends how you interpret the terms involved.
I do know though that you quoted Rev. ...8 (you didn't give the full reference) which uses the terms unbelieving (faithless) as separate groups suggests one can not be conflated with the other so easily.
I took too long getting back to everyone here. I couldn't get on site on Saturday, something wouldn't let me.
Dear CST, thank you for your kind observations.
Quote
Jesus did say "Love they neighbor..." but ahead of that He put "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." Even your neighbor coming between you and God is bad.
It is far from a problem in my book. To truly love God it means to nourish His lost and confused children – Service to His lambs and sheep through love for God is the
complete love of God... ...Loving God without Service is
not completely loving God.
If one
truly loves God then one
cannot help but love the children whom He adores.
There cannot be one (loving God) without the other (loving ones neighbour)...
Matthew 22
36 'Teacher, which is the great command in the Law?'
37 And Jesus said to him, `Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thine understanding --
38 this is a first and great command;
39 and the second
is like* to it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself;
40
on these --
the two commands -- all the law and the prophets do hang.'
* (homoios: 'similar', 'resembling' from the base: homou 'assembled together')
John 21
15 When they had dined, Iesus said to Simon Peter: Simon Ioanna,
lovest thou me more than these? He said unto him:
yea Lord, thou knowest, that I love thee. He said unto him:
feed my lambs.
16 He said to him again the second time: Simon Ioanna,
lovest thou me? He said unto him:
yea Lord thou knowest that I love thee. He said unto him:
feed my sheep.
17 He said unto him the third time: Simon Ioanna,
lovest thou me? Peter sorrowed because he said to him the third time, lovest thou me, and said unto him: Lord, thou knowest all things,
thou knowest that I love thee. Iesus said unto him:
feed my sheep.
In addition to this, I also believe that God, in Christ, is already in each one of His children, and therefore nourishing and tending to His children is in fact
directly loving God - and not to do so is
not loving God.
Matthew 25
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 And the King will answer and say to them, '
Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him,saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 Then He will answer them, saying, '
Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
And as an afterthought, love for God is not an intellectual exercise of words, it is in literal fact an all-enveloping communion of the heart, soul and very being (which with some humans it puts them on their knees). To grow in the love of God in the Hereafter is an ongoing process - or I prefer to say an unfolding of petals around the existent Spirit which is of God - and there is no end to the love of God so one must be prepared!
In my opinion.
Peace
Oh, I don't dispute the logic of that at all never have and don't imagine I ever will. But God comes first and He made many people and He loves them and those they love and gave them to each other to love and love should go to the giver first and the gift second. All well and good.
And in this spirit Jesus did not mince His words over what His followers were to do if their relationship with their family friends and neighbors ever created a conflict between them and the demand to follow the path of Jesus. Obviously He said Jesus and He said so in rather strong terms.
He wants us to love our neighbors as you say He does but He wants us to love especially those in most need at least as must and often more than those He's give us as gifts and company.
We're not very inclined to do this and tend to show partiality on exactly who we give our love to (I'm particularly poor on this) often giving it more strongly to those who are gifts to us.
Obviously few of us make our friends and family into idols to worship, we're too close to them, we know them too well, but we can be very inclined to turned powerful and influential people into idols and rivals for the love we owe to God if they impress us or attract us in the right way.
I'm not inclined on this thread to discuss the parable of the sheep and the goats which I hold to be very important but this isn't the place.
Dear CST,
I appreciate your correct desire to hold to the truth that we are first and foremost affiliated to the Great GOD. I agree with you and thank you for further explaining your meaning in such a comprehensible manner.
I am always happy to hear of people who question traditional thought and theologies in the lens of their sense of morality, fairness, justice and reason; who do not throw away all God-given reason by taking refuge in blind faith; who sense that there is something right and yet not right in what they are being told. All this brings me encouragement that the Christ in humanity is rising into its rightful inheritance of Christ Consciousness. But as you say, this thread is not the place to discuss such matters, and neither does it fall within the circumscribed requests of the site.
As far as affiliation with GOD first is concerned, I would refer back to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit theme.
In my understanding, it is man who has caused the separation between himself and God – whereas in spiritual reality - as far as the Spirit of GOD is concerned – there is no separation – Christ or the Holy Spirit is both in and around humanity wherever it may have wandered - GOD is at the centre always. Christ called to those who would listen to follow Him and in so doing He took them out of the world, "that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity". To me this simply means being realised in ones' original state before falling away from Perfection into the admixture of darkness and light. All are One with GOD in Christ. And I believe that the Holy Spirit is working powerfully to bring a colossal change over the next few centuries so that the Race will be the Christ Race.
:smile: and then: huh?
Are we in the spiritual reality at all? I seem to be pretty fleshy and physical. I don't like the idea of God taking us out of the world or how it's meant to solve anything. God may not be responsible for our separation but He's definitely responsible for putting us in the world, the world is responsible for nothing.
So this idea of taking us out of the world which He put us in because we did and do things that neither He nor the world are responsible for makes no sense.
Nor does the idea of putting us back into any sort of 'original state.' Original to who? It might be original to Adam and Eve but it won't be original too us we've never been there we'll just be lost. It'll just be completely alien to us and hard if not impossible for us to process.
Dear CST,
Please do not worry. God is in complete control and there is Eternity in front to learn about and to unfold to the newness of Spiritual Life as the fashioning unto the likeness of Christ continues only when the individual is prepared...
"I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one"
I would just say, in short, to study the life of Jesus and be wise.
:smile:
Yay, very true, agrees.
Trinity cannot be true because the doctrine of the Trinity states that Jesus is God and if Jesus is God he cannot die.
I see this as able to be separated into 2 separate issues, maybe more - not just one thing means or doesn't mean another.
IMO, Jesus, being God (the Son, not the Father) took on humanity for a time (assumed the role). He was God the Son, and man.
It's a good question about "God dying" (and perhaps another topic, such as one we have somewhere I couldn't find, about "Did Jesus Die") but to say there's absolute final proof about the Trinity in that, I believe doesn't necessarily exist. :)
* from gotquestions.org - The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, "I am God." That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus' words in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." We need only to look at the Jews' reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: "You, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, "I and the Father are one," He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth ... before Abraham was born, I am!" Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).
John reiterates the concept of Jesus' deity: "The Word [Jesus] was God" and "the Word became flesh" (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!
Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.'" The Father refers to Jesus as "O God," indicating that Jesus is indeed God.
Actually, as I see it, Jesus had to die, to fulfill the promise made when Adam and Eve bite the Apple.
It was to die that He was born.....and to show us who God is; to teach us how to live; to teach us how His followers would be misunderstood and outcasts in this world, and to establish the New Covenant of Love, to complete the Old Covenant of the Law.
Jesus was completely man and completely God. He was the sacrificial Lamb for our sins, and He was the Son of God, who would rise again.
When Lazarus died, Jesus told Martha, I am the Resurrection. Whoever believed in Him would never die, and if he died, would rise again.
Jesus, as a man, died on that cross. But, because He was also truly God, death had no hold over Him, because, He could not die. He was the Resurrection. In dying, He was the ultimate sacrifice for our sinfulness. And in rising, He showed us that He was God, as well. That He had the power over life and death.
Only a human could save humanity: He represented all of mankind and this is why He was conceived by Mary, of the Holy Spirit and only God could save humanity: He had the power to rise; the power over life and death, even though He had been killed. Jesus was both man and God. The only one who could be our Savior.
Thus, Jesus fulfilled the prophesy of a Messiah, who would save His people. Not in the way man expected, but in the way God designed.....and how overwhelmingly beautiful was His plan.
John 11:
...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...
In John1:29, John the Baptist tells us who Jesus is.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
And, the prophet, Isaiah, foretold of Jesus' death and that He would save us.:
Isaiah 53:
...4Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him....
My :2c:
D.
Quote from: jabcat on April 16, 2016, 11:47:52 PM
It's a good question about "God dying" (and perhaps another topic, such as one we have somewhere I couldn't find, about "Did Jesus Die")
yeah, i really just mean the idea of "
God dying" is intriguing..of course I believe Jesus died and rose again, there are just various thoughts from various sides about it..i.e., the man died but the God of Him didn't..His body died but His Spirit never did...He completely (body and Spirit) died, instantly awoke in Spirit world..He completely died, stayed completely dead 3 days...that's some of the stuff in that other thread...
As far as the Trinity discussion, I'm just not sure any of the above can absolutely prove or disprove it necessarily. :2c:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/humor-poems-songs-movies/fully-god-fully-man-no-contradiction/msg197500/#msg197500
God is a title. :Peace2:
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2016, 05:46:26 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 16, 2016, 11:47:52 PM
It's a good question about "God dying" (and perhaps another topic, such as one we have somewhere I couldn't find, about "Did Jesus Die")
yeah, i really just mean the idea of "God dying" is intriguing..of course I believe Jesus died and rose again, there are just various thoughts from various sides about it..i.e., the man died but the God of Him didn't..His body died but His Spirit never did...He completely (body and Spirit) died, instantly awoke in Spirit world..He completely died, stayed completely dead 3 days...that's some of the stuff in that other thread...
As far as the Trinity discussion, I'm just not sure any of the above can absolutely prove or disprove it necessarily. :2c:
You all are really on a roll ! and Thank you, good question Christina 100
and making us all think outside the box!!!
I have noticed two things maybe 3 , by the scriptures that never quite fit right , till you brought this all out in the open "again "
We Know the Father is the Father of Spirits and there are 7 Spirits of God in the scriptures , the boys James and John were of a spirit they did not know what they were of ? Jesus tells them they are the sons of thunder and that the voices of the 7 thunders speaks in the revealing of Christ /revelation
Jesus goes on to tell them I did not come to destroy men's lives but SAVE THEM ...
we also know by the scriptures that Paul mentions the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ belonging to Him , you must have both working within you to have the power of Wisdom resting on you
Romans 8 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,
if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
I know that until they saw Jesus in his glorified state returning to them from the dead and actually
breathed on them than were they able to received the HOLY SPIRIT /fullness of GODS SEVEN SPIRITS ?
Isaiah 11 Isaiah 11(NASB)
Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,[1]
The spirit of wisdom[2] and understanding,[3]
The spirit of counsel [4]and strength,[5]
The spirit of knowledge[6] and the fear of the Lord.[7]
And He will delight in the fear of the Lord,
And He will not judge by what His eyes see,
Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;
But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wickedAlso righteousness will be the belt about His loins,
And faithfulness the belt about His waist.
This could very well be the ONE OF A KIND SON OF GOD [by One shall all be saved ] , bringing forth the many sons of God into this same glory of the Father
by the power of the SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE WORD OF TRUTH .
This also makes sense to me why anyone whom blasphemes against the HOLY SPIRIT [7 FULNESS ] has not forgiveness in this age being under law or the age to come being the age of grace when Jesus returned to breath on them to receive the full power of the 7 Spirits of God working in them
the COMPLETING POWER FROM ON HIGH ....
You have no power at all unless given to you from above ! It is God by grace giving the increase the power of the 7 lights spoken of the Old testament prophets , the Spirit of Prophecy being the testimony of Jesus heavenly witness and Listen to what the Spirit[fullness of God ] is saying .
the Father of lights !! spirits making just men perfect / complete ... James 1 16Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth,
so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 17, 2016, 05:15:58 PM
God is a title. :Peace2:
Yes, amen.
(Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.
God is our family name. Not that we are all God the Father but we are all god's. Otherwords we are gods in name only. That is why Jesus said "is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods'?
CHB
I think for the sake of this discussion, the title God with a capital G is a synonym for deity or divine. :2c:
or a word to describe the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit as ONE entity, unseparated ..... using the word "God" rather than the word "One"
Always made complicated, it would seem we are unable to except the purity of simplicity, and as always one must wonder why. :Peace2:
"Yes, amen.
(Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.
God is our family name. Not that we are all God the Father but we are all god's. Otherwords we are gods in name only. That is why Jesus said "is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods'?"
CHB
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
:bdh: :hammerhead: :BangHead:
You know, one of the best things about this blog are those pictures we can chose from.
I think they add a really creative touch. :LH:
D.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 18, 2016, 05:38:10 AM
Always made complicated, it would seem we are unable to except the purity of simplicity, and as always one must wonder why. :Peace2:
"Yes, amen.
(Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.
God is our family name. Not that we are all God the Father but we are all god's. Otherwords we are gods in name only. That is why Jesus said "is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods'?"
CHB
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Like you said God is just a title Micah and the simple is good , but just scratching the surface of the WORD OF GOD
17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith;
and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
18may be able to
comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
19and to know the love of Christ
which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God
name of my God and my new name Rev 3
...11'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
12'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God,
and he will not go out from it anymore;
and I will write on him
the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God,
the new Jerusalem,
which comes down out of heaven from My God,
and My new name. 13'He who has
an ear, let him
hear what the
Spirit says to the churches.'
There is something to be said for the Spirit of Truth knowing'' all things'' and giving ''all things'' to whom ever He will .
From my own point of view, it is not so much a particular stance taken on the Trinity that is of chief importance but rather that each stance has brought Jesus the Christ to the centre of one's life. Therefore, if Christ is truly at the centre, then the influence of His birth, life, death and resurrection has had very much the powerful spiritual effect it was meant to have.
Without His influence through sacrifice I personally have no doubt that today humanity would have devolved backwards to a state not much better than beasts – something which the secular world does not have the insight to see because it rules out negative spiritual influence (the power of evil), something unseen and unaccounted for. But that is another whole subject completely.
I read in our local paper this weekend about the Catholic charity Caritas ...
"Inspired by Gospel values and the Catholic Social Teaching, Caritas responds to disasters, promotes integral human development and advocates on the causes of poverty and conflict."
http://www.caritas.org/who-we-are/caritas-church
I do not personally accept the Catholic theological viewpoint but I most certainly see the power of Christ in Caritas and I am filled with gratitude for the alleviation of suffering it brings about, and it is not totally resistant to, and sees the value in adapting to the changing world in order to continue alleviation of suffering in the field. In view of such an example, I would hope that to any clear-minded person it can be seen that it is the influence of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit at work in charitable movements such as this, even if they cannot accept whatever doctrines they carry.
Unfortunately, history has shown what bitter invective can arise between holders of doctrines that differ, even among those who would give their life to bringing comfort and basic necessities to people suffering leprosy, perhaps an example of which might be the criticism around the Presbyterian and Catholic dissension in the case of Father Damien.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Damien
I do not care who was right or wrong but I do care that someone gave their life to provide succour these poor human outcasts.
While I am not a Trinitarian, I believe this particular option...
Quote
the man died but the God of Him didn't..His body died but His Spirit never did
...that it was the physical body of Jesus that died on the Cross, while the Spirit of the man Jesus of Nazareth was raised in the Spirit on the Cross and went and preached to the 'spirits in prison' so that they might live according to God in the Spirit.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/the-verse-which-'says'-jesus-preached-to-those-in-'hell'/msg155019/#msg155019
I believe that the reappearance of Jesus in a form which could walk through walls and appear and disappear at will, was a form that could also adopt materiality if needed so that it could be touched by a material hand.
All this is apart from the pre-Jesus of Nazareth (Spiritual) Christ begotten of the Father through whom the universe was wrought (and who manifested as a human being 2000 years ago) and who never stopped existing or being.
However, in the context of real life and suffering, I personally care little about doctrinal differences as long as people who need Christ are able to receive Him into their hearts and minds by hearing about Him, studying His life from birth to resurrection, by beginning to understand something of what bringing life immortality to light means, by understanding and knowing more and more of their Father God – all to the extent that the state of genuine repentance is known so that "there shall be joy in heaven" by the crossing over from death to life.
In this respect, I believe that nobody should attempt to remove another from their faith which they hold dear and which has brought Christ into their hearts and minds, but rather to find what is good and helpful in the faith of the other and make it their own, and thereby demonstrating to that other how to look for the Good in one's own faith, so as to raise the consciousness above the world of good mixed with evil to the World of Good alone.
This, I believe, is how things should be, and the world would be a far better place if only this could be practiced instead of creating unforgiving theological wars between those in Christ who have differing doctrinal views where there is no crossover at all even though the Cross is the reason for the faith, which, in my opinion, can cause more harm than good because the challenge of the sincere conviction of one who has accepted Jesus into the heart and mind is often received as an attack and insult by that one. I believe that one day the change must and will come about.
I believe that one of the greatest tools a human being can utilise is the ability to put oneself in the place of another and to ask oneself how one would feel in the position of that other – how one would act, how one would think, how one would understand. God is Harmony and when Harmony exists between His children so is healing possible in greater measure.
When all has been melted down in the crucible holding diversity, I have no doubt that Love is found to be the greatest Instructor of Divine Truth – and I happen to believe that Jesus the Man was the physical manifestation of that Love.
This is just my opinion.
Peace and blessings in the radiance of His Light
Quote
While I am not a Trinitarian, I believe this particular option...
Quote
the man died but the God of Him didn't..His body died but His Spirit never did
...that it was the physical body of Jesus that died on the Cross, while the Spirit of the man Jesus of Nazareth was raised in the Spirit on the Cross and went and preached to the 'spirits in prison' so that they might live according to God in the Spirit.
See I have a problem with this part also , the scriptures explain everything
the tomb was empty , there was not even a ''physical body '' the EMPTY TOMB , these are
wondrous signs , the transfiguration that makes no earthy sense to any carnal minded man
Jesus making the point , The son of man has no where to Lay His Head [authority ] no body of Christ formed yet
and this mostly is very informative , the dead linen clothes [are our mortal bodies , spiritually speaking , the head linen clothes was rolled up was placed separate all by itself [ this heavens rolled up like a scroll] as the old heavens and earth are DONE AWAY IN CHRIST , and the new heavens and earth being formed in us ... being clothed in Christ and linens Jesus Christ is the head answering many clues to his own WORD OF LIFE being said ,...
the linen wrappings and grave clothes are represented as being Clothed in Christ , noting Lazarus being raised was also bound in grave clothes , not linens , he was under the law of death and Christ raised Him up out of death
These details are very important and mostly ignored , but being diligent and careful how we handle the Word of Life has its rewards
I do believe you cannot tell others what you understand , just share what God gives us and hope it takes root in the Love of God in our hearts sprading the gospel
I do believe the only thing that did DIE was the WORD Being choked out of men's hearts by the briars and thorns and tares and the need to burn with Holy Spirit and fire Matt 13
The Parable of the Sower Explained
...21
yet he has no firm root in himself, no Word of Christ love yet being rooted and grounede in the Love of God which is Christ the anointed LIVING WORD ...
but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
22"And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth
choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23"And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it;
who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." John 20
"
They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him."
So Peter and the other disciple went forth, and they were going to the tomb.
The two were running together; and the other disciple ran ahead faster than Peter and came to the tomb first; and stooping and looking in, he *
saw the linen wrappings lying there; but he did not go in.
And so Simon Peter also *came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he *saw the linen wrappings lying there, and
the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself. So the other disciple who had first come to the tomb then also entered,
and he saw and believed. For as yet they d
id not understand the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. So the disciples went away again
to their own homes. These are huge in meanings , the Word and Spirit Making new LIFE rising from among the dead ..
Quote from: lastpost on April 20, 2016, 12:11:32 PM
This, I believe, is how things should be, and the world would be a far better place if only this could be practiced instead of creating unforgiving theological wars between those in Christ who have differing doctrinal views where there is no crossover at all even though the Cross is the reason for the faith, which, in my opinion, can cause more harm than good because the challenge of the sincere conviction of one who has accepted Jesus into the heart and mind is often received as an attack and insult by that one. I believe that one day the change must and will come about.
I believe that one of the greatest tools a human being can utilise is the ability to put oneself in the place of another and to ask oneself how one would feel in the position of that other – how one would act, how one would think, how one would understand. God is Harmony and when Harmony exists between His children so is healing possible in greater measure.
When all has been melted down in the crucible holding diversity, I have no doubt that Love is found to be the greatest Instructor of Divine Truth – and I happen to believe that Jesus the Man was the physical manifestation of that Love.
This is just my opinion.
Peace and blessings in the radiance of His Light
Amen.
CHB
Quote from: Cristina100 on April 16, 2016, 11:01:47 PM
Trinity cannot be true because the doctrine of the Trinity states that Jesus is God and if Jesus is God he cannot die.
Cristina, this sort of question is indeed one of the reasons why people do indeed deny that Jesus is God. But the Bible clearly seems to state that Jesus is God at various levels of suggestion some of which have already been mentioned in answer to you.
Because of this it is also the reason people posit the concept of the Trinity in the first place because not only is there the question you ask of how God can die but also the question of how God can live. That is to say how He can live as a mortal human in a finite period of history while at the same time remain God Almighty, transcending and ruling the World. Jesus being God, which the Bible says He is in many ways, in no way stops or diminishes God's capacity to be God.
Quote from: jabcat on April 16, 2016, 11:47:52 PM
I see this as able to be separated into 2 separate issues, maybe more - not just one thing means or doesn't mean another.
IMO, Jesus, being God (the Son, not the Father) took on humanity for a time (assumed the role). He was God the Son, and man.
It's a good question about "God dying" (and perhaps another topic, such as one we have somewhere I couldn't find, about "Did Jesus Die") but to say there's absolute final proof about the Trinity in that, I believe doesn't necessarily exist. :)
* from gotquestions.org - The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, "I am God." That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus' words in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." We need only to look at the Jews' reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: "You, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, "I and the Father are one," He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth ... before Abraham was born, I am!" Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).
John reiterates the concept of Jesus' deity: "The Word [Jesus] was God" and "the Word became flesh" (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!
Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.'" The Father refers to Jesus as "O God," indicating that Jesus is indeed God.
Here Jabcat has a good list of a number of the points where the Bible says Jesus is God. A lot of the are from the Gospel according to St. John. John's gospel is rather unique among the gospels in that John goes out of his way to teach that Jesus is God so much so it's hard to understand how there are people who dismiss the fact I have to imagine it's because they have the sort of questions you do.
John's gospel is not like the others, it contains no parables and all but two of the miracles it contains are unique to it. The miracles it has kept in seem very important to this question. These miracles are the feeding of the five thousand, which appears in all four gospels, and the one that is especially pertinent here. This miracle appears in all gospels except Luke's and it always follows the feeding of the five thousand in those three. It differs to various degrees in those accounts but there are important details it agrees on. This miracle is the miracle of Jesus walking on water.
The account tells how the disciples were on a boat crossing the sea in a storm having gone on ahead several miles apparently, they were in a strong storm and it was night. All accounts agree of this and the they see Jesus approach them walking across the sea as easily as on land and Jesus says to them 'Do not be afraid, it is I' or according to the Greek if you're reading John's gospel 'Do not be afraid, I AM'.
The accounts differ on many details but the weather and conditions stay the same. Why, because, to my understanding, it is this miracle, more than any other until the resurrection, that is meant to show that Jesus is God. It is Jesus in the position of the Spirit of God that moves across the deep at the very beginning of the Bible. Jesus is God and it is meant to teach so and John emphasizes as much by having Jesus say 'I AM' at that point.
Such is my understanding anyway.
Did Jesus die? In some senses that might depend on how you define death and when it actually occurs. But in a more relevant sense, of course, at some point you probably have to accept that the Bible says He did, the gospel writers all attempt to show that He did. Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected by the Father in Heaven. That's how we generally understand this and how it relates to the Trinity. Jesus is God and Jesus died but Jesus didn't resurrect Himself, well He did because he's God, and yet He didn't. This is when it start to confuse us, no wonder you have questions.
Quote from: Dandelion on April 17, 2016, 04:48:51 AM
Actually, as I see it, Jesus had to die, to fulfill the promise made when Adam and Eve bite the Apple.
It was to die that He was born.....and to show us who God is; to teach us how to live; to teach us how His followers would be misunderstood and outcasts in this world, and to establish the New Covenant of Love, to complete the Old Covenant of the Law.
Jesus was completely man and completely God. He was the sacrificial Lamb for our sins, and He was the Son of God, who would rise again.
When Lazarus died, Jesus told Martha, I am the Resurrection. Whoever believed in Him would never die, and if he died, would rise again.
Jesus, as a man, died on that cross. But, because He was also truly God, death had no hold over Him, because, He could not die. He was the Resurrection. In dying, He was the ultimate sacrifice for our sinfulness. And in rising, He showed us that He was God, as well. That He had the power over life and death.
Only a human could save humanity: He represented all of mankind and this is why He was conceived by Mary, of the Holy Spirit and only God could save humanity: He had the power to rise; the power over life and death, even though He had been killed. Jesus was both man and God. The only one who could be our Savior.
Thus, Jesus fulfilled the prophesy of a Messiah, who would save His people. Not in the way man expected, but in the way God designed.....and how overwhelmingly beautiful was His plan.
John 11:
...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...
In John1:29, John the Baptist tells us who Jesus is.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
And, the prophet, Isaiah, foretold of Jesus' death and that He would save us.:
Isaiah 53:
...4Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him....
My :2c:
D.
Yeah, this. Many works of theology have been written explaining how this might be explained.I won't direct you do them though because they've obviously written, in general by proponents of ET or ED.
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2016, 05:46:26 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 16, 2016, 11:47:52 PM
It's a good question about "God dying" (and perhaps another topic, such as one we have somewhere I couldn't find, about "Did Jesus Die")
yeah, i really just mean the idea of "God dying" is intriguing..of course I believe Jesus died and rose again, there are just various thoughts from various sides about it..i.e., the man died but the God of Him didn't..His body died but His Spirit never did...He completely (body and Spirit) died, instantly awoke in Spirit world..He completely died, stayed completely dead 3 days...that's some of the stuff in that other thread...
As far as the Trinity discussion, I'm just not sure any of the above can absolutely prove or disprove it necessarily. :2c:
Jesus obviously wasn't dead for three calendar days. In fact it kind of looks like Jesus was basically dead over the Sabbath and was raised when it was over. Is it meaningful to say His spirit didn't die, I think there less reason to believe a spirit can die than a soul can?
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 17, 2016, 05:15:58 PM
God is a title. :Peace2:
Yeah, isn't it a title that means 'eternal being who created and rules (or co-rules if that's your belief) the World'?
Quote from: rosered on April 17, 2016, 06:03:10 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2016, 05:46:26 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 16, 2016, 11:47:52 PM
It's a good question about "God dying" (and perhaps another topic, such as one we have somewhere I couldn't find, about "Did Jesus Die")
yeah, i really just mean the idea of "God dying" is intriguing..of course I believe Jesus died and rose again, there are just various thoughts from various sides about it..i.e., the man died but the God of Him didn't..His body died but His Spirit never did...He completely (body and Spirit) died, instantly awoke in Spirit world..He completely died, stayed completely dead 3 days...that's some of the stuff in that other thread...
As far as the Trinity discussion, I'm just not sure any of the above can absolutely prove or disprove it necessarily. :2c:
You all are really on a roll ! and Thank you, good question Christina 100
and making us all think outside the box!!!
I have noticed two things maybe 3 , by the scriptures that never quite fit right , till you brought this all out in the open "again "
We Know the Father is the Father of Spirits and there are 7 Spirits of God in the scriptures , the boys James and John were of a spirit they did not know what they were of ? Jesus tells them they are the sons of thunder and that the voices of the 7 thunders speaks in the revealing of Christ /revelation
Jesus goes on to tell them I did not come to destroy men's lives but SAVE THEM ...
we also know by the scriptures that Paul mentions the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ belonging to Him , you must have both working within you to have the power of Wisdom resting on you
Romans 8 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,
if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
I know that until they saw Jesus in his glorified state returning to them from the dead and actually breathed on them than were they able to received the HOLY SPIRIT /fullness of GODS SEVEN SPIRITS ?
Isaiah 11 Isaiah 11(NASB)
Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,[1]
The spirit of wisdom[2] and understanding,[3]
The spirit of counsel [4]and strength,[5]
The spirit of knowledge[6] and the fear of the Lord.[7]
And He will delight in the fear of the Lord,
And He will not judge by what His eyes see,
Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;
But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked
Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins,
And faithfulness the belt about His waist.
This could very well be the ONE OF A KIND SON OF GOD [by One shall all be saved ] , bringing forth the many sons of God into this same glory of the Father
by the power of the SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE WORD OF TRUTH .
This also makes sense to me why anyone whom blasphemes against the HOLY SPIRIT [7 FULNESS ] has not forgiveness in this age being under law or the age to come being the age of grace when Jesus returned to breath on them to receive the full power of the 7 Spirits of God working in them
the COMPLETING POWER FROM ON HIGH ....
You have no power at all unless given to you from above ! It is God by grace giving the increase the power of the 7 lights spoken of the Old testament prophets , the Spirit of Prophecy being the testimony of Jesus heavenly witness and Listen to what the Spirit[fullness of God ] is saying .
the Father of lights !! spirits making just men perfect / complete ... James 1 16Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
Fascinating. I'm not absolutely sure what you're saying here though I like what you did with that Isaiah passage.
I'm not sure if you're saying that James and John were in one of the seven spirits as you're understanding them just not the one Jesus came in at the time. After all, James and John didn't make their statement about vengeance on 'bad' cities in a vacuum did they? They're read in their scriptures how God had done exactly that to several of His enemies through history. That's what you get if that's the sort of role model you are. Jesus doesn't make any effort to say deny that He did those things, He just suggests that James and John are a little outside the project if they think those things are fitting now. Even though at one point He told the disciples that if ever they went to a city that didn't receive them kindly they were to shake the dust from their feet as they left and it would be worse for that city than Sodom and Gomorrah on they day of judgement. I don't know what they're meant to think.
I'm not sure I agree with your understanding of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit though but I don't think this is the thread to discuss that. I also see the use of the term seven spirits in Revelation differently to how you do but, again, not pertinent here.
Quote from: CHB on April 17, 2016, 09:27:53 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 17, 2016, 05:15:58 PM
God is a title. :Peace2:
Yes, amen.
(Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.
God is our family name. Not that we are all God the Father but we are all god's. Otherwords we are gods in name only. That is why Jesus said "is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods'?
CHB
I'm pretty sure it's not because I don't think we're all gods. We're certainly not at the moment. God isn't even God's name, that would be YHWH.
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2016, 10:19:39 PM
I think for the sake of this discussion, the title God with a capital G is a synonym for deity or divine. :2c:
For the purposes of all discussions to be honest, I think. :2c:
Quote from: jugghead on April 17, 2016, 10:45:56 PM
or a word to describe the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit as ONE entity, unseparated ..... using the word "God" rather than the word "One"
Or as separate entities. God(the Father), God(the Son), God(the Holy Spirit)
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 18, 2016, 05:38:10 AM
Always made complicated, it would seem we are unable to except the purity of simplicity, and as always one must wonder why. :Peace2:
"Yes, amen.
(Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.
God is our family name. Not that we are all God the Father but we are all god's. Otherwords we are gods in name only. That is why Jesus said "is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods'?"
CHB
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Why would the simple automatically be more pure, it depends what you're discussing, surely?
Quote from: eaglesway on April 18, 2016, 06:21:08 AM
:bdh: :hammerhead: :BangHead:
Easy, EW. I don't think this discussion is there yet and it does seem to be going that way at present.
Quote from: Dandelion on April 18, 2016, 06:36:01 AM
You know, one of the best things about this blog are those pictures we can chose from.
I think they add a really creative touch. :LH:
D.
I think that's true for some of them, some of them I hope are never used on the board in civil conversation.
I want to make it clear, since I have been beating around the bush and being polite. We are not going to have the godhead discussion or debate it in this thread, or renew the debate on the boards at the present time :o)