Are Universalists, Trinitarians?

[rosered]

  Yes it is John ,  Thanks Godislove   for your thoughtful message of hope .,
For me  it is  called   faith believing  , without faith it is impossible to please God ..

  I do believe faithlessness was the sin of idolatry
  Faith , hope and love , but the greatest of these is love .

   It is putting all your confidence in God   alone  and none in yourself or others because we are  prone to failures  ,But  God whom is Love never fails
obedience   is  to let   faith in God   work in  love   with no other motive   but to help us all come together as Unity in the Body of Christ as the Light of the world .it is no longer us whom live but the LORD JESUS CHRIST  whom lives in us .  His life to be made known in the earth .


...4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all....

Waking  each other up  to become spiritually conscience of the presence of Gods love   , there is nothing worse than feeling you are unloved and unwanted and not needed,   ALONE ,     and LOVE works both ways  like that ,   we are to LOVE GOD first  now  aware  , because He loved us first    and gave Himself for us   while we  were yet sinners and working against Him, [scattering ]  and not for Him[gathering ]  .



 

[jugghead]

  Yes it is John ,  Thanks Godislove   for your thoughtful message of hope .,
For me  it is  called   faith believing  , without faith it is impossible to please God ..

  I do believe faithlessness was the sin of idolatry
  Faith , hope and love , but the greatest of these is love .

   It is putting all your confidence in God   alone  and none in yourself or others because we are  prone to failures  ,But  God whom is Love never fails
obedience   is  to let   faith in God   work in  love   with no other motive   but to help us all come together as Unity in the Body of Christ as the Light of the world .it is no longer us whom live but the LORD JESUS CHRIST  whom lives in us .  His life to be made known in the earth .


...4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all....

Waking  each other up  to become spiritually conscience of the presence of Gods love   , there is nothing worse than feeling you are unloved and unwanted and not needed,   ALONE ,     and LOVE works both ways  like that ,   we are to LOVE GOD first  now  aware  , because He loved us first    and gave Himself for us   while we  were yet sinners and working against Him, [scattering ]  and not for Him[gathering ]  .

Excellent post Rose ..... and what came to mind when I read what I highlighted can be summed up in one phrase, that being ....

Without purpose

[CST]

Excellent post Rose ..... and I agree with CST, please keep it up ..... His Word through us does not come back void, when the time is right others will glean from the corners

By your posts CST, I can tell you are walking in faith ..... which we know that it comes from the root word meaning "to convince" ..... we walk in faith when we continue on our journey of understanding in what we have already been convinced is the truth; that has come out of the Father, through Christ, by His Spirit (from the source to us and back again)

The way He taught me to deal with struggles is the example of: subjects of math

as we struggle to understand things of God is like trigonometry, but before we can understand how that works, the prerequisites are geometry and algebra and before we can even understand those subjects we first have to learn to add, subtract, multiply and divide

We may not understand trigonometry at the moment, but rest assured, He is continuing to teach us because He knows we have to understand the other subjects completely before He moves us on to the next one.

And that is the other part of faith, having faith that He will help us to understand. (from us to the source and than back again)

Blessings brother CST
Jugghead

Thanks very much. The square on the hypotenuse is equal to the square on the sum of the other two sides and I know enough about trig. to know that triangles actually do have three sides.

I don't know much about language though, I was of the impression the root of the word for faith was the same one that gives us fidelity meaning 'trust'. We trust that God will do what He says He's going to do but apparently there are some conditions. <sigh> But it's a very positive post you made all the same, thank you. Blessings to you too.

All those beliefs seemed fine to me except I'm not sure what it means to say Jesus is the only begotton Son of God without the Trinity.

No, it doesnt mean that at all actually. All it means is what a person believes about the Trinity,  either way,(along with most of the other doctrines people go round and round about) is not critical for salvation or necessary to fellowship in the body of Christ, or required for fellowship in TM.

We are here to share the victorious gospel. Most of our threads ought to wind back towards that area of scripture because that is the reason the Spirit established this site. In other words, that is the "word" here and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The owner of the site prefers to keep this a "safe zone" so people from various backgrounds can come here and learn about UR without having to "pass thru the fire" of various debates and feel forced to attack or defend other doctrinal issues.

I agree with that perspective entirely.

Agreed John.

Also, to believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct entities in and of itself neither necessarily rejects or supports the classical Trinity doctrine.  Many do believe in a Trinity of 3 distinct entities, and their salvation is based on the Son.  Others believe in Jesus and the Father as distinct, while also believing the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father that He sends out and uses to accomplish His purposes rather than a "third Person of the Trinity".  And their salvation is based on the Son.  Either way, believe on the Son, crucified and risen, seek Him first.   :2c:

I wish this was as simple as your making it sound and must seem to you when you see it but I keep digging in my head and just coming up with more obstacles for myself.

Like, for example, you don't think this sort of dispute is pertinent for the site but at the same time one of the guidelines of Tentmaker is that we don't believe that all roads leads to God. A Muslim or a Jew or a Hindu can be as sincere as they like but they won't be saved in the first order. And this is fine because if people worship the wrong god in the wrong way they are committing idolatry. And idolatry is very bad. It means that the offender is not reconciled and is a bad relationship with God. And if they not reconciled they aren't saved, is that right? Have I understood that correctly.

But here's the thing a lot of people who are opposed to the Trinity Christians and non-Christians tend to declare and you can understand there reasoning that Jesus is not God and anyone who believes He is God and worships Him as such is committing idolatry. And if they're right it's hard to see anyone worshiping the 'false god' of Jesus not being punished for idolatry.

But it is also written in the law that people who accuse people of offenses such as idolatry when they are not guilty of it they they should receive the punishment the one they accused would have received, i.e. death.

And this does really seem unfair and Jesus declared that anyone who acknowledges Him before others He will acknowledge before God and anyone who denies Him before other He will deny before God. So how much of 'Him' are we meant to be acknowledging. And is it not idolatry to deny that Jesus is God when in fact He is God. Idolatry is a big deal.

And that's confusing me.

But nothing that's said above denies Jesus is God.  I personally (as well as many others here) believe He is.  Just God the Son (of the same Substance, Being) - not God the Father - but still God.  That can be believed and still believe EITHER of the views expressed above about the Trinity.  Believing the Holy Spirit is a "third Person" of a Trinity, or the Spirit of God that He sends out to indwell and work His purposes, has nothing necessarily to negate Jesus being God, the Savior, etc.   Hope that helps.

I am talking about the research I have done when I've encountered the suggestion that some "Christian" groups who reject the Trinity simultaneously reject the idea that Jesus is God. Obviously we believe He is God and obviously He must somehow be part of God because He's not a separate God, is He?

I do see your main point that perhaps other controversies over the Trinity may well be less than the claim that Jesus isn't God, but the claim is made by some and it seems to be a big deal.

I think what underscores a lot of your concern about getting it "right" is that you want to do what is right to please God and secure your salvation.

For me, believing in UR has mostly removed that fear for me. We don't have to worry about getting it right OR ELSE...because we know God is love and cares deeply for us all and we will ultimately be corrected in love and united with Him.

How we experience God's corrections has to do with our own state of mind. If we resist God and feel we know best, it will be a negative experience. If we are open to His corrections it will be easier to endure.  Think of how different people in the bible experience the fire of God---there was no fear on Pentecost because the people who experienced tongues of fire were followers of Christ. Moses spoke to the burning bush and said "Here I am" instead of running away, but he did have some level of fear of looking directly at the bush, the Israelites in Exodus were not afraid of the pillar of fire (God) and He led them.

Sort of, what concerns me is that, to say it again, salvation in your future won't change your past and obviously I never want to have going to Hell in my past and I might if I get it wrong or teach other it wrong. To me Universal Reconciliation isn't a security blanket so I can think "never mind I'll go to Heaven eventually". Hell is well worth avoiding, avoid!

But I do no there's absolutely nothing I can do about the outcome but that doesn't make me anymore comfortable.

Those are really good words GodisLove,

We dont hav to fear because we know God loves everyone and is causing all things to work together for good. He is not standing over us with a ruler on our beliefs. He is loving us and teaching us how to be mature in love.

No, we have the ruler. "The measure you give is the measure you shall receive."

  Yes it is John ,  Thanks Godislove   for your thoughtful message of hope .,
For me  it is  called   faith believing  , without faith it is impossible to please God ..

  I do believe faithlessness was the sin of idolatry
  Faith , hope and love , but the greatest of these is love .

   It is putting all your confidence in God   alone  and none in yourself or others because we are  prone to failures  ,But  God whom is Love never fails
obedience   is  to let   faith in God   work in  love   with no other motive   but to help us all come together as Unity in the Body of Christ as the Light of the world .it is no longer us whom live but the LORD JESUS CHRIST  whom lives in us .  His life to be made known in the earth .


...4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all....

Waking  each other up  to become spiritually conscience of the presence of Gods love   , there is nothing worse than feeling you are unloved and unwanted and not needed,   ALONE ,     and LOVE works both ways  like that ,   we are to LOVE GOD first  now  aware  , because He loved us first    and gave Himself for us   while we  were yet sinners and working against Him, [scattering ]  and not for Him[gathering ]  .



 

:smile: Oh, it would be nice if that was exactly what the definition of idolatry is. Of course it's still hard to be sure the faith any of us have is the right faith. Sigh, as it is I feel all those things quite frequently.

  Yes it is John ,  Thanks Godislove   for your thoughtful message of hope .,
For me  it is  called   faith believing  , without faith it is impossible to please God ..

  I do believe faithlessness was the sin of idolatry
  Faith , hope and love , but the greatest of these is love .

   It is putting all your confidence in God   alone  and none in yourself or others because we are  prone to failures  ,But  God whom is Love never fails
obedience   is  to let   faith in God   work in  love   with no other motive   but to help us all come together as Unity in the Body of Christ as the Light of the world .it is no longer us whom live but the LORD JESUS CHRIST  whom lives in us .  His life to be made known in the earth .


...4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all....

Waking  each other up  to become spiritually conscience of the presence of Gods love   , there is nothing worse than feeling you are unloved and unwanted and not needed,   ALONE ,     and LOVE works both ways  like that ,   we are to LOVE GOD first  now  aware  , because He loved us first    and gave Himself for us   while we  were yet sinners and working against Him, [scattering ]  and not for Him[gathering ]  .

Excellent post Rose ..... and what came to mind when I read what I highlighted can be summed up in one phrase, that being ....

Without purpose

And that too.

[jabcat]

It may be something you'll need to just pray for what God wants you to see, and for His peace in the midst of it.   :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

I agree James. Sometimes just resting and digesting in trust that the Lord loves us is all we can do while the brain and the concepts and the info settle and the mind of the Lord begins to come up on the horizon.

I do know this for certain. I have been a believer for 40 years. There were things i though i would never understand. I would read verses of scripture and just spin around in my head. After all this time I can say God has been faithful to show me all I have asked Him and more, and the words by which I was saved as a young man still grant me hope, guidance and assurance to this day.

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9"Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10"Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!"

[lastpost]

:smile: Oh, it would be nice if that was exactly what the definition of idolatry is.

If I may, I wanted to move away from those many call "heathen" for a moment and look at another aspect which I personally think is more real and vital in its application.

In my opinion, anything – anything – which comes in between a man or a woman and their God – then that is an idol.

I personally give more weight to Christ's teachings than the teachings of men, so when He says to love ones neighbour, I assign a greater importance to how a person treats another person, his or her attitude towards another – than to the current theological belief held in the mind of that person.

What, I ask myself, has man established in the homes where he lives, in his civic buildings, in his places of worship?

Some there are who have gifted minds which they use for material ambition, some who have physical externals both of flesh and brick which the world admires greatly. As time passes, the gathering of the possessions of the world are sought, the amassing of material power, the adoration of the masses in what the world calls fame.

Idols are all around, idols and more idols. And there is no room, no place, no space for the God who has given all. Unimportance, non-recognition – these are shunned in favour of being a material power and influence in the locality which has been built through by the worship of idols.

And envy arises in the minds of the masses as they wish all these worldly gains were theirs. But they are foolish because they have not understood that by self-denial, by simple things, by travelling the Christ Road, so the riches of the Spirit are being built up moment by moment and preserved by a caring Father God for a short time ahead – a time when all that pomp, adulation and physical treasure has been removed from the possessor - a time when all those idols can no longer bring to him or her the worldly fame and riches often gathered at the cost of the effort and pain of others – a time when those ones who suffered to bring to the selfish ones their worldly gains are imbued with strengths and powers which cannot be wrested from them while those who amassed earthly greatness must now look upon them from their position of spiritual poverty.

Other idols there are too of a different constitution, those which cast a shroud over the Gentle Jesus. The scientist who desires more than anything else to be the one remembered as he attempts to reveal earthly secrets to an amazed world, and in so doing he has become ignorant and indifferent of the suffering of others, so oblivious to the caring Creator who could bring such a wealth of help if only the scientist was humble enough to pray for guidance. But instead he has put God last and the Earth comes first – and these things, I believe, will take much anguish to work out before he knows the happiness that God would give him. 

Then there is the collector, the one who travels the world for vases, paintings, sculptures and all those objects which he prizes above all else, those things of which he never stops talking about to others or adoring even in his heart. Idols come first, and even the Master Builder Himself is not even given a thought. The spiritual bankruptcy of this idol-worshipper, so I believe, will mean that he will have to watch those who were unknown, unthought-of by the world, those who quietly did their duty to the best of their ability – he will have to watch with self-imposed torment these others gifted by the power of a generous God creating real sweet beauty in their own conditions while he remembers his earthly treasure and now sees it as a perversion of the real Divine beauty of God.

Then there is the one totally immersed in creating sounds that cause the base passions to arise in the masses, whose life revolved solely around these idols, having not a thought for the Creator of the sweet melodies and angelic sounds which one time the one who abused his gift will have to learn about with much pathos, who, through his ignorance, smirked at those who, through great effort, wrote down but a few simple lines of prose or poetry, but lines which instructed about and revealed the glory of God.

The humble Christ, He is not known or welcomed by those who worship worldly idols in all their various forms - idols which banish God from the consciousness - where there is no place for an obedient will and a contrite and humble heart.

Idols in the churches where all is exhibition – so distracting from the One who was born into poverty. Or even the churches in the hearts of the earthly with their superior positions, their petty jealousies and their clever words, who long to see a display of power where the gentle Jesus returns with legion upon legion of avenging angels sporting murderous cries to force all who would challenge their authority upon their knees. How they forget the hardship and the persecution of the Christ Way, and instead they demand a display of power and might – worldly idols.

Blessed are the pure in heart said the Christ of God, yet so many spare not even a thought for the One True God, because they spend all their time in front of shrines set out to the idols of the Earth.
As I said, I believe that anything – anything – that is found to be even slightly like an idol which stands between Christ the Saviour and one's real self, must be identified with rigorous honesty and cast out.

The gifts of the hands and the mind should construct only that which has God in it, which works for the spiritual benefit of others, which draws out effort for the sake of others, paying no heed to the jeers of the world nor the pangs of heart or body.

The idols of this false world of good and evil to which the eyes have opened – these idols are not wanted! There is the One True God who is Good – there is the sweet and tender Saviour who is the expressed reflection of the Godhead no less – who then, I ask myself, would not want to worship the One True God? Worshipping only the Good - which is the only Reality – can be done right now this very second, and, in so doing, His lambs, His sheep, will receive nourishment.

That is my opinion.

Peace in Service

[eaglesway]

Yes lastpost, I agree. if Jesus is the image of the One True God, Why would anyone not embrace such a God as that. One who would suffer and die for the love of people who did not regard him as anything special because He didnt have the looks, the worldly pedigree, or the kind of wealth and might unto which they were enslaved.

I would say that to a great extent itis  because they cannot see Him for who He really is in character and love, because of all the idols that tower against the horizon bearing His name, but lacking His Heart and Mind. And because where one's treasure is, there also will be their heart.... but in order to treasure Him they must see Him as He is.

[rosered]

I can only describe   what the Spirit is showing me personally  about   OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST  ,as His name is  known under heaven  in the world and graves  below ,  HE HOLDS  IT ALL  WITHIN HIMSELF  as being the LAMB slain from the  foundation of the WORLD   and HE IS REMOVING  EVERYTHING outside His OWN BODY ,ITS MASSIVE   and uncontained , but being set in order    ,   

  God is a God of order , as the dead and living are found within HIMSELF     to be presented to GOD  FULLY ALIVE  IN  THE END  as HE IS SUBJECTED  TO THE FATHER HIMSELF .. His feet are the burnished bronze and glow  in the furnace / oven of affliction  , judgments  in the earth EGYPT   THE OVEN  ,  AS hIS FEET/TEACHING  TOUCH THE EARTH   as we are received as sons of God   though suffering ...


I promise I did not learn this from no man ....    I give GOD ALL THE GLORY , HONOR AND PRAISE and unable to hold  my peace about it .

...9"For the sake of My name I delay My wrath, And for My praise I restrain it for you, In order not to cut you off. 10"Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. 11"For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another.

Deuteronomy 4:20
But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

1 Kings 8:51
for they are your people and your inheritance, whom you brought out of Egypt, out of that iron-smelting furnace.

Psalm 66:10
For you, God, tested us; you refined us like silver.

Isaiah 27:9
By this, then, will Jacob's guilt be atoned for, and this will be the full fruit of the removal of his sin: When he makes all the altar stones to be like limestone crushed to pieces, no Asherah poles or incense altars will be left standing.

Jeremiah 9:7
Therefore this is what the LORD Almighty says: "See, I will refine and test them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?

Jeremiah 11:4
the terms I commanded your ancestors when I brought them out of Egypt, out of the iron-smelting furnace.' I said, 'Obey me and do everything I command you, and you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Ezekiel 22:18
"Son of man, the people of Israel have become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver.

Zechariah 13:9
This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"

John's Vision on Patmos
...14His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.

15His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength....

Ezekiel 1:7
Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze.

Ezekiel 1:24
When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.

Ezekiel 40:3
He took me there, and I saw a man whose appearance was like bronze; he was standing in the gateway with a linen cord and a measuring rod in his hand.

Ezekiel 43:2
and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory.

Daniel 10:6
His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

Revelation 2:18
"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.



unbelief  is the worlds test  in   idolatry   as A New Heaven and a New Earth in the Body of Christ is being formed   ALIVE BY THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IN WORD AND DEED  ,,

...7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The second  death harms 1John 5 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. 18We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil       one.  burning    AND HARMS US ...Jesus said, "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." (Revelation 2:11)
   TURNING  one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh   so in the DAY OF THE LORD his Spirit will be saved  has been harmed  in death [ known the depths of satan knowing  evil  in the world /Egypt  ]    the furnace   of affliction    is  a fire  of Gods consuming    the earth /  EGYPT     to come out of ....  into the feet of Christ    His teaching  and victory     over sin and death  being the lusts of the flesh ..
1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

Galatians 5:19
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

Galatians 5:20
idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

1 Timothy 1:10
for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Revelation 2:11
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 9:17
The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.

Revelation 9:21
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 14:10
they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Revelation 19:20
But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


in the world , is lying  sin   which is death , we all enter the   Body of Christ though His feet    teaching   us His righteousness    touching   the earth  who would return as a dog to its own vomit   want to endure a second death ? only to be harmed by the lake of fire ?  sadly those whom were once given   God grace , but will   suffer in more ways   without His protection  as kings of the earth / Pharaohs   with hardened hearts   by God  allowing them to  harden  and their own stubbornness  to submit  not  keeping  from the evil one ...  stubbornness is the sin of idolatry 

...22Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD?


Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.


23"For rebellion ''an act of violent or open resistance to an established government or ruler. is as the sin of divination, And insubordination defiance of authority; refusal to obey orders.,  as iniquity and idolatry.


Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He has also rejected you from being king."

  reigned as kings without us Do Not Be Proud   ,  the sin being,   the  pride of life .

...7For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? 8You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed,

I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you.

9For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men....
we all are learning we cannot   LIVE without Gods Spirit and Life   in us at all   , but suffer at the hands of evil continually as dead to God  in this world  being His footstool  ...a footstool

to make one a footstool of one's feet, i.e. to subject, to reduce under one's power

metaph. taken from the practice of conquerors who placed their feet on the necks of their conquered enemies

a foot, both of men or beast

often in the orient, one put his foot on vanquished

of disciples listening to their teacher's instruction are said to be at his feet

[CST]

I agree James. Sometimes just resting and digesting in trust that the Lord loves us is all we can do while the brain and the concepts and the info settle and the mind of the Lord begins to come up on the horizon.

I do know this for certain. I have been a believer for 40 years. There were things i though i would never understand. I would read verses of scripture and just spin around in my head. After all this time I can say God has been faithful to show me all I have asked Him and more, and the words by which I was saved as a young man still grant me hope, guidance and assurance to this day.

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9"Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10"Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!"

Yeah, that's not really my experience of God and prayer but, of course, I don't really expect to get everything I pray for certainly not all of it immediately, and not all of it at all.

On this matter people having been trying to resolve this matter for nearly 2000 years no doubt sincerely and in prayer often and God hasn't given them a final answer why should I be so conceited as to believe he'll give an answer to me?

:smile: Oh, it would be nice if that was exactly what the definition of idolatry is.

If I may, I wanted to move away from those many call "heathen" for a moment and look at another aspect which I personally think is more real and vital in its application.

In my opinion, anything – anything – which comes in between a man or a woman and their God – then that is an idol.

I personally give more weight to Christ's teachings than the teachings of men, so when He says to love ones neighbour, I assign a greater importance to how a person treats another person, his or her attitude towards another – than to the current theological belief held in the mind of that person.

What, I ask myself, has man established in the homes where he lives, in his civic buildings, in his places of worship?

Some there are who have gifted minds which they use for material ambition, some who have physical externals both of flesh and brick which the world admires greatly. As time passes, the gathering of the possessions of the world are sought, the amassing of material power, the adoration of the masses in what the world calls fame.

Idols are all around, idols and more idols. And there is no room, no place, no space for the God who has given all. Unimportance, non-recognition – these are shunned in favour of being a material power and influence in the locality which has been built through by the worship of idols.

And envy arises in the minds of the masses as they wish all these worldly gains were theirs. But they are foolish because they have not understood that by self-denial, by simple things, by travelling the Christ Road, so the riches of the Spirit are being built up moment by moment and preserved by a caring Father God for a short time ahead – a time when all that pomp, adulation and physical treasure has been removed from the possessor - a time when all those idols can no longer bring to him or her the worldly fame and riches often gathered at the cost of the effort and pain of others – a time when those ones who suffered to bring to the selfish ones their worldly gains are imbued with strengths and powers which cannot be wrested from them while those who amassed earthly greatness must now look upon them from their position of spiritual poverty.

Other idols there are too of a different constitution, those which cast a shroud over the Gentle Jesus. The scientist who desires more than anything else to be the one remembered as he attempts to reveal earthly secrets to an amazed world, and in so doing he has become ignorant and indifferent of the suffering of others, so oblivious to the caring Creator who could bring such a wealth of help if only the scientist was humble enough to pray for guidance. But instead he has put God last and the Earth comes first – and these things, I believe, will take much anguish to work out before he knows the happiness that God would give him. 

Then there is the collector, the one who travels the world for vases, paintings, sculptures and all those objects which he prizes above all else, those things of which he never stops talking about to others or adoring even in his heart. Idols come first, and even the Master Builder Himself is not even given a thought. The spiritual bankruptcy of this idol-worshipper, so I believe, will mean that he will have to watch those who were unknown, unthought-of by the world, those who quietly did their duty to the best of their ability – he will have to watch with self-imposed torment these others gifted by the power of a generous God creating real sweet beauty in their own conditions while he remembers his earthly treasure and now sees it as a perversion of the real Divine beauty of God.

Then there is the one totally immersed in creating sounds that cause the base passions to arise in the masses, whose life revolved solely around these idols, having not a thought for the Creator of the sweet melodies and angelic sounds which one time the one who abused his gift will have to learn about with much pathos, who, through his ignorance, smirked at those who, through great effort, wrote down but a few simple lines of prose or poetry, but lines which instructed about and revealed the glory of God.

The humble Christ, He is not known or welcomed by those who worship worldly idols in all their various forms - idols which banish God from the consciousness - where there is no place for an obedient will and a contrite and humble heart.

Idols in the churches where all is exhibition – so distracting from the One who was born into poverty. Or even the churches in the hearts of the earthly with their superior positions, their petty jealousies and their clever words, who long to see a display of power where the gentle Jesus returns with legion upon legion of avenging angels sporting murderous cries to force all who would challenge their authority upon their knees. How they forget the hardship and the persecution of the Christ Way, and instead they demand a display of power and might – worldly idols.

Blessed are the pure in heart said the Christ of God, yet so many spare not even a thought for the One True God, because they spend all their time in front of shrines set out to the idols of the Earth.
As I said, I believe that anything – anything – that is found to be even slightly like an idol which stands between Christ the Saviour and one's real self, must be identified with rigorous honesty and cast out.

The gifts of the hands and the mind should construct only that which has God in it, which works for the spiritual benefit of others, which draws out effort for the sake of others, paying no heed to the jeers of the world nor the pangs of heart or body.

The idols of this false world of good and evil to which the eyes have opened – these idols are not wanted! There is the One True God who is Good – there is the sweet and tender Saviour who is the expressed reflection of the Godhead no less – who then, I ask myself, would not want to worship the One True God? Worshipping only the Good - which is the only Reality – can be done right now this very second, and, in so doing, His lambs, His sheep, will receive nourishment.

That is my opinion.

Peace in Service

Yeah, the problem with that is that it is simultaneously totally meaningful and not at all meaningful. Jesus did say "Love they neighbor..." but ahead of that He put "You shall  love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." Even your neighbor coming between you and God is bad.

But we can't see God, and we can't see what people really real about God so we can't know really whether they really value A, B or C above God. But we know they probably won't have seen God and anything else they've been attracted to whatever it is that God made. God's demand to be put first isn't illogical or unreasonable. But it does seem illogical and unreasonable to ask us to abandon them completely because He made us made them and them plucked us all on this Earth which He made what just so they could trap us and prove none of us are going to be loyal to a divine being we haven't met so far as we no. That just seems sneaky.

Yes lastpost, I agree. if Jesus is the image of the One True God, Why would anyone not embrace such a God as that. One who would suffer and die for the love of people who did not regard him as anything special because He didnt have the looks, the worldly pedigree, or the kind of wealth and might unto which they were enslaved.

I would say that to a great extent itis  because they cannot see Him for who He really is in character and love, because of all the idols that tower against the horizon bearing His name, but lacking His Heart and Mind. And because where one's treasure is, there also will be their heart.... but in order to treasure Him they must see Him as He is.

And at the moment a lot of them see Him as the mean guy who sends most everyone to Hell to suffer forever endless torments at the hands of Satan and his demons who rule it.

There's a few huge idols right there.

To Rosered (sorry, your post put me over the character limit when I quoted it),
Wow, and I thought we were a UR site. There's a fair few quotes in there ETers love. Like God delaying His wrath for example. If He's doing that then it suggests all the more vicious punishments are due now and if He's doing it for the sake of His name they can argue He isn't doing it because He might want to be merciful and not hurt those who deserve it. But that depends how you interpret the terms involved.

I do know though that you quoted Rev. ...8 (you didn't give the full reference) which uses the terms unbelieving (faithless) as separate groups suggests one can not be conflated with the other so easily.

I took too long getting back to everyone here. I couldn't get on site on Saturday, something wouldn't let me.

[lastpost]

Dear CST, thank you for your kind observations.

Jesus did say "Love they neighbor..." but ahead of that He put "You shall  love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." Even your neighbor coming between you and God is bad.

It is far from a problem in my book. To truly love God it means to nourish His lost and confused children – Service to His lambs and sheep through love for God is the complete love of God... ...Loving God without Service is not completely loving God.


If one truly loves God then one cannot help but love the children whom He adores.
There cannot be one (loving God) without the other (loving ones neighbour)...

Matthew 22
36 'Teacher, which is the great command in the Law?'
37 And Jesus said to him, `Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thine understanding --
38 this is a first and great command;
39 and the second is like* to it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself;
40 on these -- the two commands -- all the law and the prophets do hang.'

* (homoios: 'similar', 'resembling' from the base: homou 'assembled together')


John 21
15 When they had dined, Iesus said to Simon Peter: Simon Ioanna, lovest thou me more than these? He said unto him: yea Lord, thou knowest, that I love thee. He said unto him: feed my lambs.
16 He said to him again the second time: Simon Ioanna, lovest thou me? He said unto him: yea Lord thou knowest that I love thee. He said unto him: feed my sheep.
17 He said unto him the third time: Simon Ioanna, lovest thou me? Peter sorrowed because he said to him the third time, lovest thou me, and said unto him: Lord, thou knowest all things, thou knowest that I love thee. Iesus said unto him: feed my sheep.


In addition to this, I also believe that God, in Christ, is already in each one of His children, and therefore nourishing and tending to His children is in fact directly loving God - and not to do so is not loving God.

Matthew 25
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him,saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'


And as an afterthought, love for God is not an intellectual exercise of words, it is in literal fact an all-enveloping communion of the heart, soul and very being (which with some humans it puts them on their knees). To grow in the love of God in the Hereafter is an ongoing process - or I prefer to say an unfolding of petals around the existent Spirit which is of God - and there is no end to the love of God so one must be prepared!

In my opinion.

Peace

[CST]

Oh, I don't dispute the logic of that at all never have and don't imagine I ever will. But God comes first and He made many people and He loves them and those they love and gave them to each other to love and love should go to the giver first and the gift second. All well and good.

And in this spirit Jesus did not mince His words over what His followers were to do if their relationship with their family friends and neighbors ever created a conflict between them and the demand to follow the path of Jesus. Obviously He said Jesus and He said so in rather strong terms.

He wants us to love our neighbors as you say He does but He wants us to love especially those in most need at least as must and often more than those He's give us as gifts and company.

We're not very inclined to do this and tend to show partiality on exactly who we give our love to (I'm particularly poor on this) often giving it more strongly to those who are gifts to us.

Obviously few of us make our friends and family into idols to worship, we're too close to them, we know them too well, but we can be very inclined to turned powerful and influential people into idols and rivals for the love we owe to God if they impress us or attract us in the right way.

I'm not inclined on this thread to discuss the parable of the sheep and the goats which I hold to be very important but this isn't the place.

[lastpost]

Dear CST,

I appreciate your correct desire to hold to the truth that we are first and foremost affiliated to the Great GOD. I agree with you and thank you for further explaining your meaning in such a comprehensible manner.

I am always happy to hear of people who question traditional thought and theologies in the lens of their sense of morality, fairness, justice and reason; who do not throw away all God-given reason by taking refuge in blind faith; who sense that there is something right and yet not right in what they are being told. All this brings me encouragement that the Christ in humanity is rising into its rightful inheritance of Christ Consciousness. But as you say, this thread is not the place to discuss such matters, and neither does it fall within the circumscribed requests of the site.

As far as affiliation with GOD first is concerned, I would refer back to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit theme.

In my understanding, it is man who has caused the separation between himself and God – whereas in spiritual reality - as far as the Spirit of GOD is concerned – there is no separation – Christ or the Holy Spirit is both in and around humanity wherever it may have wandered - GOD is at the centre always. Christ called to those who would listen to follow Him and in so doing He took them out of the world, "that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity". To me this simply means being realised in ones' original state before falling away from Perfection into the admixture of darkness and light. All are One with GOD in Christ. And I believe that the Holy Spirit is working powerfully to bring a colossal change over the next few centuries so that the Race will be the Christ Race.

[CST]

:smile: and then: huh?

Are we in the spiritual reality at all? I seem to be pretty fleshy and physical. I don't like the idea of God taking us out of the world or how it's meant to solve anything. God may not be responsible for our separation but He's definitely responsible for putting us in the world, the world is responsible for nothing.

So this idea of taking us out of the world which He put us in because we did and do things that neither He nor the world are responsible for makes no sense.
Nor does the idea of putting us back into any sort of 'original state.' Original to who? It might be original to Adam and Eve but it won't be original too us we've never been there we'll just be lost. It'll just be completely alien to us and hard if not impossible for us to process.

[lastpost]

Dear CST,

Please do not worry. God is in complete control and there is Eternity in front to learn about and to unfold to the newness of Spiritual Life as the fashioning unto the likeness of Christ continues only when the individual is prepared...

"I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one"

I would just say, in short, to study the life of Jesus and be wise.

[CST]

:smile:

Yay, very true, agrees.

[Cristina100]

Trinity cannot be true because the doctrine of the Trinity states that Jesus is God and if Jesus is God he cannot die.

[jabcat]

I see this as able to be separated into 2 separate issues, maybe more - not just one thing means or doesn't mean another.

IMO, Jesus, being God (the Son, not the Father) took on humanity for a time (assumed the role).  He was God the Son, and man.

It's a good question about "God dying" (and perhaps another topic, such as one we have somewhere I couldn't find, about "Did Jesus Die") but to say there's absolute final proof about the Trinity in that, I believe doesn't necessarily exist.  :)

* from gotquestions.org  -  The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, "I am God." That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus' words in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." We need only to look at the Jews' reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: "You, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, "I and the Father are one," He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth ... before Abraham was born, I am!" Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus' deity: "The Word [Jesus] was God" and "the Word became flesh" (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.'" The Father refers to Jesus as "O God," indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

[Dandelion]

Actually, as I see it, Jesus had to die, to fulfill the promise made when Adam and Eve bite the Apple.

It was to die that He was born.....and to show us who God is; to teach us how to live; to teach us how His followers would be misunderstood and outcasts in this world, and to establish the New Covenant of Love, to complete the Old Covenant of the Law. 

Jesus was completely man and completely God. He was the sacrificial Lamb for our sins, and He was the Son of God, who would rise again.

When Lazarus died, Jesus told Martha, I am the Resurrection. Whoever believed in Him would never die, and if he died, would rise again.

Jesus, as a man, died on that cross. But, because He was also truly God, death had no hold over Him, because, He could not die. He was the Resurrection. In dying, He was the ultimate sacrifice for our sinfulness. And in rising, He showed us that He was God, as well. That He had the power over life and death.

Only a human could save humanity: He represented all of mankind and this is why He was conceived by Mary, of the Holy Spirit and only God could save humanity: He had the power to rise; the power over life and death, even though He had been killed. Jesus was both man and God. The only one who could be our Savior.

Thus, Jesus fulfilled the prophesy of a Messiah, who would save His people. Not in the way man expected, but in the way God designed.....and how overwhelmingly beautiful was His plan.

John 11:
...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...

In John1:29, John the Baptist tells us who Jesus is.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

And, the prophet, Isaiah, foretold of Jesus' death and that He would save us.:

Isaiah 53:
...4Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him....

My  :2c:

D.

[jabcat]

It's a good question about "God dying" (and perhaps another topic, such as one we have somewhere I couldn't find, about "Did Jesus Die")

yeah, i really just mean the idea of "God dying" is intriguing..of course I believe Jesus died and rose again, there are just various thoughts from various sides about it..i.e., the man died but the God of Him didn't..His body died but His Spirit never did...He completely (body and Spirit) died, instantly awoke in Spirit world..He completely died, stayed completely dead 3 days...that's some of the stuff in that other thread...

As far as the Trinity discussion, I'm just not sure any of the above can absolutely prove or disprove it necessarily.  :2c:

[jabcat]

http://tentmaker.org/forum/humor-poems-songs-movies/fully-god-fully-man-no-contradiction/msg197500/#msg197500

[micah7:9]

God is a title. :Peace2:

[rosered]

It's a good question about "God dying" (and perhaps another topic, such as one we have somewhere I couldn't find, about "Did Jesus Die")

yeah, i really just mean the idea of "God dying" is intriguing..of course I believe Jesus died and rose again, there are just various thoughts from various sides about it..i.e., the man died but the God of Him didn't..His body died but His Spirit never did...He completely (body and Spirit) died, instantly awoke in Spirit world..He completely died, stayed completely dead 3 days...that's some of the stuff in that other thread...

As far as the Trinity discussion, I'm just not sure any of the above can absolutely prove or disprove it necessarily.  :2c:

  You all are really  on a roll ! and Thank you, good question Christina 100

  and making us all think outside the box!!! 
I have noticed two things  maybe 3  , by the scriptures  that never  quite fit  right , till you  brought this  all out in the open  "again "

   We Know the Father is the  Father of Spirits and there  are 7 Spirits of God    in the scriptures , the  boys James and John  were of a spirit  they did not know what they were of ?    Jesus tells them they are the sons of thunder    and that   the voices of the 7 thunders   speaks  in the revealing of Christ  /revelation

  Jesus goes on to tell them   I did not come to destroy men's lives but SAVE THEM ...

  we also know  by the scriptures  that    Paul mentions the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ belonging to Him  , you must have both  working within you to have the  power   of Wisdom resting on you

  Romans 8 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,

if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

I know that until they saw     Jesus in his glorified state   returning to them from the dead  and  actually breathed on them     than were they able to  received the HOLY SPIRIT   /fullness of  GODS SEVEN  SPIRITS ?

Isaiah 11 Isaiah 11(NASB)

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,[1]
The spirit of wisdom[2] and understanding,[3]
The spirit of counsel [4]and strength,[5]
The spirit of knowledge[6] and the fear of the Lord.[7]

And He will delight in the fear of the Lord,
And He will not judge by what His eyes see,
Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;
But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked

Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins,
And faithfulness the belt about His waist.

This  could very well be the   ONE OF A KIND SON OF GOD [by One  shall all be saved ]  ,  bringing forth the many sons of God into this same glory  of the Father

by the power of the SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE WORD OF TRUTH    .

  This also makes sense to me   why    anyone whom  blasphemes against the HOLY SPIRIT [7 FULNESS  ]   has not forgiveness in this age  being under  law    or the age to come being the age of grace   when Jesus returned to breath on them to receive the full power of the  7 Spirits of God working in them 
  the   COMPLETING  POWER FROM ON HIGH    ....

You have no power at all unless given to you from above !   It is God  by grace  giving the increase     the power of the  7 lights   spoken of the Old testament  prophets  , the Spirit of  Prophecy     being the testimony of Jesus    heavenly witness   and   Listen to what the Spirit[fullness of God ] is saying .

  the Father of lights  !! spirits making   just men perfect / complete ...   James 1 16Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

[CHB]

God is a title. :Peace2:

Yes, amen. 

(Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.

God is our family name. Not that we are all God the Father but we are all god's. Otherwords we are gods in name only. That is why Jesus said "is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods'?

CHB

[jabcat]

I think for the sake of this discussion, the title God with a capital G is a synonym for deity or divine.   :2c:

[jugghead]

or a word to describe the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit as ONE entity, unseparated ..... using the word "God" rather than the word "One"