Are Universalists, Trinitarians?

[micah7:9]

Always made complicated, it would seem we are unable to except the purity of simplicity, and as always one must wonder why. :Peace2:

"Yes, amen. 

(Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.

God is our family name. Not that we are all God the Father but we are all god's. Otherwords we are gods in name only. That is why Jesus said "is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods'?"
CHB

:dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

 :bdh: :hammerhead: :BangHead:

[Dandelion]

You know, one of the best things about this blog are those pictures we can chose from.

I think they add a really creative touch.      :LH:


D. 

[rosered]

Always made complicated, it would seem we are unable to except the purity of simplicity, and as always one must wonder why. :Peace2:

"Yes, amen. 

(Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.

God is our family name. Not that we are all God the Father but we are all god's. Otherwords we are gods in name only. That is why Jesus said "is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods'?"
CHB

:dsunny: :HeartThrob:

   Like you said God is just a title   Micah    and the simple   is good ,  but just scratching the surface  of the WORD OF GOD 

17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith;

and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,

19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God

  name of my God and my new name   Rev 3

...11'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

12'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God,


and he will not go out from it anymore;

and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem,

which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

13'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

  There is something to be said for the Spirit of Truth knowing'' all things'' and   giving ''all things''    to whom ever He will .

[lastpost]

From my own point of view, it is not so much a particular stance taken on the Trinity that is of chief importance but rather that each stance has brought Jesus the Christ to the centre of one's life. Therefore, if Christ is truly at the centre, then the influence of His birth, life, death and resurrection has had very much the powerful spiritual effect it was meant to have.

Without His influence through sacrifice I personally have no doubt that today humanity would have devolved backwards to a state not much better than beasts – something which the secular world does not have the insight to see because it rules out negative spiritual influence (the power of evil), something unseen and unaccounted for. But that is another whole subject completely.

I read in our local paper this weekend about the Catholic charity Caritas ...

"Inspired by Gospel values and the Catholic Social Teaching, Caritas responds to disasters, promotes integral human development and advocates on the causes of poverty and conflict."

http://www.caritas.org/who-we-are/caritas-church

I do not personally accept the Catholic theological viewpoint but I most certainly see the power of Christ in Caritas and I am filled with gratitude for the alleviation of suffering it brings about, and it is not totally resistant to, and sees the value in adapting to the changing world in order to continue alleviation of suffering in the field. In view of such an example, I would hope that to any clear-minded person it can be seen that it is the influence of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit at work in charitable movements such as this, even if they cannot accept whatever doctrines they carry.

Unfortunately, history has shown what bitter invective can arise between holders of doctrines that differ, even among those who would give their life to bringing comfort and basic necessities to people suffering leprosy, perhaps an example of which might be the criticism around the Presbyterian and Catholic dissension in the case of Father Damien.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Damien

I do not care who was right or wrong but I do care that someone gave their life to provide succour these poor human outcasts.

While I am not a Trinitarian, I believe this particular option...

the man died but the God of Him didn't..His body died but His Spirit never did

...that it was the physical body of Jesus that died on the Cross, while the Spirit of the man Jesus of Nazareth was raised in the Spirit on the Cross and went and preached to the 'spirits in prison' so that they might live according to God in the Spirit.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/the-verse-which-'says'-jesus-preached-to-those-in-'hell'/msg155019/#msg155019

I believe that the reappearance of Jesus in a form which could walk through walls and appear and disappear at will, was a form that could also adopt materiality if needed so that it could be touched by a material hand.

All this is apart from the pre-Jesus of Nazareth (Spiritual) Christ begotten of the Father through whom the universe was wrought (and who manifested as a human being 2000 years ago) and who never stopped existing or being.

However, in the context of real life and suffering, I personally care little about doctrinal differences as long as people who need Christ are able to receive Him into their hearts and minds by hearing about Him, studying His life from birth to resurrection, by beginning to understand something of what bringing life immortality to light means, by understanding and knowing more and more of their Father God – all to the extent that the state of genuine repentance is known so that "there shall be joy in heaven" by the crossing over from death to life.

In this respect, I believe that nobody should attempt to remove another from their faith which they hold dear and which has brought Christ into their hearts and minds, but rather to find what is good and helpful in the faith of the other and make it their own, and thereby demonstrating to that other how to look for the Good in one's own faith, so as to raise the consciousness above the world of good mixed with evil to the World of Good alone.

This, I believe, is how things should be, and the world would be a far better place if only this could be practiced instead of creating unforgiving theological wars between those in Christ who have differing doctrinal views where there is no crossover at all even though the Cross is the reason for the faith, which, in my opinion, can cause more harm than good because the challenge of the sincere conviction of one who has accepted Jesus into the heart and mind is often received as an attack and insult by that one. I believe that one day the change must and will come about.

I believe that one of the greatest tools a human being can utilise is the ability to put oneself in the place of another and to ask oneself how one would feel in the position of that other – how one would act, how one would think, how one would understand. God is Harmony and when Harmony exists between His children so is healing possible in greater measure.

When all has been melted down in the crucible holding diversity, I have no doubt that Love is found to be the greatest Instructor of Divine Truth – and I happen to believe that Jesus the Man was the physical manifestation of that Love.

This is just my opinion.

Peace and blessings in the radiance of His Light

[rosered]

While I am not a Trinitarian, I believe this particular option...

Quote
the man died but the God of Him didn't..His body died but His Spirit never did

...that it was the physical body of Jesus that died on the Cross, while the Spirit of the man Jesus of Nazareth was raised in the Spirit on the Cross and went and preached to the 'spirits in prison' so that they might live according to God in the Spirit.

  See  I have a problem with this part also  , the scriptures explain   everything
     the tomb was empty    , there was not even a    ''physical body ''    the EMPTY TOMB ,   these are wondrous signs   , the transfiguration that makes no earthy sense   to  any carnal minded man

Jesus making the point  ,    The son of man has no where to Lay His Head [authority ]   no body  of Christ formed yet 

and this mostly   is very informative  ,  the dead linen clothes [are our mortal bodies     , spiritually speaking , the head   linen clothes   was rolled up was placed   separate all by itself [ this  heavens rolled up like a scroll]    as the old heavens and earth are    DONE AWAY  IN CHRIST  ,  and the new   heavens and earth   being formed in us ... being clothed in Christ and linens     Jesus Christ is the head  answering many clues to his own WORD OF LIFE being said ,...
the linen wrappings and grave clothes are represented as being Clothed in Christ ,  noting Lazarus being raised was also  bound in grave clothes ,  not linens  , he was under the law  of death and Christ raised  Him up  out of death

   These details are very important and mostly ignored , but being diligent  and careful  how we  handle the Word of Life   has its rewards

  I do believe you cannot tell others what you understand , just share   what God gives us and hope   it takes root in the Love of God  in our hearts   sprading the gospel   

  I do believe the only  thing that did    DIE  was the WORD   Being choked out   of men's hearts by the briars and thorns and tares  and the need to burn   with Holy Spirit  and fire    Matt 13

The Parable of the Sower Explained
...21yet he has no firm root in himself,  no Word of Christ  love  yet  being  rooted and grounede in  the Love of God which is Christ      the anointed   LIVING WORD  ...   


but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

22"And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

23"And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

   John 20 
 
"They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him."


So Peter and the other disciple went forth, and they were going to the tomb.

The two were running together; and the other disciple ran ahead faster than Peter and came to the tomb first; and stooping and looking in, he *saw the linen wrappings lying there; but he did not go in.

And so Simon Peter also *came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he *saw the linen wrappings lying there, and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself.


So the other disciple who had first come to the tomb then also entered, and he saw and believed. For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.

So the disciples went away again to their own homes.

These are  huge in meanings  ,  the Word and Spirit   Making new LIFE rising   from among the dead ..     

[CHB]

This, I believe, is how things should be, and the world would be a far better place if only this could be practiced instead of creating unforgiving theological wars between those in Christ who have differing doctrinal views where there is no crossover at all even though the Cross is the reason for the faith, which, in my opinion, can cause more harm than good because the challenge of the sincere conviction of one who has accepted Jesus into the heart and mind is often received as an attack and insult by that one. I believe that one day the change must and will come about.

I believe that one of the greatest tools a human being can utilise is the ability to put oneself in the place of another and to ask oneself how one would feel in the position of that other – how one would act, how one would think, how one would understand. God is Harmony and when Harmony exists between His children so is healing possible in greater measure.

When all has been melted down in the crucible holding diversity, I have no doubt that Love is found to be the greatest Instructor of Divine Truth – and I happen to believe that Jesus the Man was the physical manifestation of that Love.

This is just my opinion.

Peace and blessings in the radiance of His Light

Amen.

CHB

[CST]

Trinity cannot be true because the doctrine of the Trinity states that Jesus is God and if Jesus is God he cannot die.

Cristina, this sort of question is indeed one of the reasons why people do indeed deny that Jesus is God. But the Bible clearly seems to state that Jesus is God at various levels of suggestion some of which have already been mentioned in answer to you.

Because of this it is also the reason people posit the concept of the Trinity in the first place because not only is there the question you ask of how God can die but also the question of how God can live. That is to say how He can live as a mortal human in a finite period of history while at the same time remain God Almighty, transcending and ruling the World. Jesus being God, which the Bible says He is in many ways, in no way stops or diminishes God's capacity to be God.

I see this as able to be separated into 2 separate issues, maybe more - not just one thing means or doesn't mean another.

IMO, Jesus, being God (the Son, not the Father) took on humanity for a time (assumed the role).  He was God the Son, and man.

It's a good question about "God dying" (and perhaps another topic, such as one we have somewhere I couldn't find, about "Did Jesus Die") but to say there's absolute final proof about the Trinity in that, I believe doesn't necessarily exist.  :)

* from gotquestions.org  -  The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, "I am God." That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus' words in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." We need only to look at the Jews' reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: "You, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, "I and the Father are one," He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth ... before Abraham was born, I am!" Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus' deity: "The Word [Jesus] was God" and "the Word became flesh" (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.'" The Father refers to Jesus as "O God," indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

Here Jabcat has a good list of a number of the points where the Bible says Jesus is God. A lot of the are from the Gospel according to St. John. John's gospel is rather unique among the gospels in that John goes out of his way to teach that Jesus is God so much so it's hard to understand how there are people who dismiss the fact I have to imagine it's because they have the sort of questions you do.

John's gospel is not like the others, it contains no parables and all but two of the miracles it contains are unique to it. The miracles it has kept in seem very important to this question. These miracles are the feeding of the five thousand, which appears in all four gospels, and the one that is especially pertinent here. This miracle appears in all gospels except Luke's and it always follows the feeding of the five thousand in those three. It differs to various degrees in those accounts but there are important details it agrees on. This miracle is the miracle of Jesus walking on water.

The account tells how the disciples were on a boat crossing the sea in a storm having gone on ahead several miles apparently, they were in a strong storm and it was night. All accounts agree of this and the they see Jesus approach them walking across the sea as easily as on land and Jesus says to them 'Do not be afraid, it is I' or according to the Greek if you're reading John's gospel 'Do not be afraid, I AM'.

The accounts differ on many details but the weather and conditions stay the same. Why, because, to my understanding, it is this miracle, more than any other until the resurrection, that is meant to show that Jesus is God. It is Jesus in the position of the Spirit of God that moves across the deep at the very beginning of the Bible. Jesus is God and it is meant to teach so and John emphasizes as much by having Jesus say 'I AM' at that point.

Such is my understanding anyway.

Did Jesus die? In some senses that might depend on how you define death and when it actually occurs. But in a more relevant sense, of course, at some point you probably have to accept that the Bible says He did, the gospel writers all attempt to show that He did. Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected by the Father in Heaven. That's how we generally understand this and how it relates to the Trinity. Jesus is God and Jesus died but Jesus didn't resurrect Himself, well He did because he's God, and yet He didn't. This is when it start to confuse us, no wonder you have questions.

Actually, as I see it, Jesus had to die, to fulfill the promise made when Adam and Eve bite the Apple.

It was to die that He was born.....and to show us who God is; to teach us how to live; to teach us how His followers would be misunderstood and outcasts in this world, and to establish the New Covenant of Love, to complete the Old Covenant of the Law. 

Jesus was completely man and completely God. He was the sacrificial Lamb for our sins, and He was the Son of God, who would rise again.

When Lazarus died, Jesus told Martha, I am the Resurrection. Whoever believed in Him would never die, and if he died, would rise again.

Jesus, as a man, died on that cross. But, because He was also truly God, death had no hold over Him, because, He could not die. He was the Resurrection. In dying, He was the ultimate sacrifice for our sinfulness. And in rising, He showed us that He was God, as well. That He had the power over life and death.

Only a human could save humanity: He represented all of mankind and this is why He was conceived by Mary, of the Holy Spirit and only God could save humanity: He had the power to rise; the power over life and death, even though He had been killed. Jesus was both man and God. The only one who could be our Savior.

Thus, Jesus fulfilled the prophesy of a Messiah, who would save His people. Not in the way man expected, but in the way God designed.....and how overwhelmingly beautiful was His plan.

John 11:
...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...

In John1:29, John the Baptist tells us who Jesus is.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

And, the prophet, Isaiah, foretold of Jesus' death and that He would save us.:

Isaiah 53:
...4Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him....

My  :2c:

D.

Yeah, this. Many works of theology have been written explaining how this might be explained.I won't direct you do them though because they've obviously written, in general by proponents of ET or ED.

It's a good question about "God dying" (and perhaps another topic, such as one we have somewhere I couldn't find, about "Did Jesus Die")

yeah, i really just mean the idea of "God dying" is intriguing..of course I believe Jesus died and rose again, there are just various thoughts from various sides about it..i.e., the man died but the God of Him didn't..His body died but His Spirit never did...He completely (body and Spirit) died, instantly awoke in Spirit world..He completely died, stayed completely dead 3 days...that's some of the stuff in that other thread...

As far as the Trinity discussion, I'm just not sure any of the above can absolutely prove or disprove it necessarily.  :2c:

Jesus obviously wasn't dead for three calendar days. In fact it kind of looks like Jesus was basically dead over the Sabbath and was raised when it was over. Is it meaningful to say His spirit didn't die, I think there less reason to believe a spirit can die than a soul can?

God is a title. :Peace2:

Yeah, isn't it a title that means 'eternal being who created and rules (or co-rules if that's your belief) the World'?

It's a good question about "God dying" (and perhaps another topic, such as one we have somewhere I couldn't find, about "Did Jesus Die")

yeah, i really just mean the idea of "God dying" is intriguing..of course I believe Jesus died and rose again, there are just various thoughts from various sides about it..i.e., the man died but the God of Him didn't..His body died but His Spirit never did...He completely (body and Spirit) died, instantly awoke in Spirit world..He completely died, stayed completely dead 3 days...that's some of the stuff in that other thread...

As far as the Trinity discussion, I'm just not sure any of the above can absolutely prove or disprove it necessarily.  :2c:

  You all are really  on a roll ! and Thank you, good question Christina 100

  and making us all think outside the box!!! 
I have noticed two things  maybe 3  , by the scriptures  that never  quite fit  right , till you  brought this  all out in the open  "again "

   We Know the Father is the  Father of Spirits and there  are 7 Spirits of God    in the scriptures , the  boys James and John  were of a spirit  they did not know what they were of ?    Jesus tells them they are the sons of thunder    and that   the voices of the 7 thunders   speaks  in the revealing of Christ  /revelation

  Jesus goes on to tell them   I did not come to destroy men's lives but SAVE THEM ...

  we also know  by the scriptures  that    Paul mentions the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ belonging to Him  , you must have both  working within you to have the  power   of Wisdom resting on you

  Romans 8 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,

if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

I know that until they saw     Jesus in his glorified state   returning to them from the dead  and  actually breathed on them     than were they able to  received the HOLY SPIRIT   /fullness of  GODS SEVEN  SPIRITS ?

Isaiah 11 Isaiah 11(NASB)

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,[1]
The spirit of wisdom[2] and understanding,[3]
The spirit of counsel [4]and strength,[5]
The spirit of knowledge[6] and the fear of the Lord.[7]

And He will delight in the fear of the Lord,
And He will not judge by what His eyes see,
Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;
But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked

Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins,
And faithfulness the belt about His waist.

This  could very well be the   ONE OF A KIND SON OF GOD [by One  shall all be saved ]  ,  bringing forth the many sons of God into this same glory  of the Father

by the power of the SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE WORD OF TRUTH    .

  This also makes sense to me   why    anyone whom  blasphemes against the HOLY SPIRIT [7 FULNESS  ]   has not forgiveness in this age  being under  law    or the age to come being the age of grace   when Jesus returned to breath on them to receive the full power of the  7 Spirits of God working in them 
  the   COMPLETING  POWER FROM ON HIGH    ....

You have no power at all unless given to you from above !   It is God  by grace  giving the increase     the power of the  7 lights   spoken of the Old testament  prophets  , the Spirit of  Prophecy     being the testimony of Jesus    heavenly witness   and   Listen to what the Spirit[fullness of God ] is saying .

  the Father of lights  !! spirits making   just men perfect / complete ...   James 1 16Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

Fascinating. I'm not absolutely sure what you're saying here though I like what you did with that Isaiah passage.

I'm not sure if you're saying that James and John were in one of the seven spirits as you're understanding them just not the one Jesus came in at the time. After all, James and John didn't make their statement about vengeance on 'bad' cities in a vacuum did they? They're read in their scriptures how God had done exactly that to several of His enemies through history. That's what you get if that's the sort of role model you are. Jesus doesn't make any effort to say deny that He did those things, He just suggests that James and John are a little outside the project if they think those things are fitting now. Even though at one point He told the disciples that if ever they went to a city that didn't receive them kindly they were to shake the dust from their feet as they left and it would be worse for that city than Sodom and Gomorrah on they day of judgement. I don't know what they're meant to think.

I'm not sure I agree with your understanding of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit though but I don't think this is the thread to discuss that. I also see the use of the term seven spirits in Revelation differently to how you do but, again, not pertinent here.

God is a title. :Peace2:

Yes, amen. 

(Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.

God is our family name. Not that we are all God the Father but we are all god's. Otherwords we are gods in name only. That is why Jesus said "is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods'?

CHB

I'm pretty sure it's not because I don't think we're all gods. We're certainly not at the moment. God isn't even God's name, that would be YHWH.

I think for the sake of this discussion, the title God with a capital G is a synonym for deity or divine.   :2c:

For the purposes of all discussions to be honest, I think. :2c:

or a word to describe the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit as ONE entity, unseparated ..... using the word "God" rather than the word "One"

Or as separate entities. God(the Father), God(the Son), God(the Holy Spirit)

Always made complicated, it would seem we are unable to except the purity of simplicity, and as always one must wonder why. :Peace2:

"Yes, amen. 

(Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.

God is our family name. Not that we are all God the Father but we are all god's. Otherwords we are gods in name only. That is why Jesus said "is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods'?"
CHB

:dsunny: :HeartThrob:

Why would the simple automatically be more pure, it depends what you're discussing, surely?

:bdh: :hammerhead: :BangHead:

Easy, EW. I don't think this discussion is there yet and it does seem to be going that way at present.

You know, one of the best things about this blog are those pictures we can chose from.

I think they add a really creative touch.      :LH:


D. 

I think that's true for some of them, some of them I hope are never used on the board in civil conversation.

[eaglesway]

I want to make it clear, since I have been beating around the bush and being polite. We are not going to have the godhead discussion or debate it in this thread, or renew the debate on the boards at the present time  :o)