Are Universalists, Trinitarians?

[RaiderGonzo]

I think you need to stop generalizing about what "universalists" believe. It's kind of like asking what Christians believe. From what I've seen there's been a wide variety of beliefs associated with Christianity throughout history, and the same is true for those you call "universalists" now. I just call myself a believer, and universal reconciliation just happens to be one of the things I believe because I think it is the truth of scripture.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, it was not my intent. I just have an inquiring mind and as I have already confessed, I don't know much about what universalism teaches.

[eaglesway]

[

Yes, I see.

There was a question I have asked myself, others, and Christians as well, and that question has to do with -pardon my french- how in the hell is everyone going to have a fair shot during judgement day "if" they lived before Christ Jesus, or never really had a chance to grow up in a Christian country/environment, i.e, the Aztecs? The answer I believe the Lord has put in my mind and in my heart is the one you just gave, that THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST"S CROSS ALONE! Past, present and future, Amen!

Yes! This is what the scriptures teach!

Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times(through outworking of the ages) He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

"Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Rom 11 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
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[eaglesway]

I hope your asking questions offends no one RG :o) I believe you are just searching.

[RaiderGonzo]

Eaglesway, I must ask; How is justice served, if evil is not judged?

[eaglesway]

Evil is judged in many ways, in this life, and in the age to come. The salvation of all is not about the absence of judgment- it is about the eventual outcome of judgment being redemption.

If you read 1 Cor 15, you see that EVRY ADVERSARY will be subjected to Christ so that God may become ALL IN ALL. That subjection process will include intense correction for some. But the end of that correction is redemption, when the last knee bows(Phil 2:10) and the last adversaRY, death, is destroyed, then there will be only LIFE IN THE ALL IN ALL OF GOD. But notice, the last adversary IS DEATH. As long as there is death THERE IS JUDGMENT- but as the scripture says, MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT. THE LIGHT SHINES IN THE DARKNESS AND THE DARKNESS CANNOT OVERCOME IT. The end of all things is life for all- but many have incurred, in this life, heavy judgment, and there will be judgment in the age to come.

The thing is that the end of that judgment is the revelation of every hidden thing and the destruction of all darkness by light. Light is fire to darkness. Jesus said "EVRY THING THAT IS HIDDEN WILL BE BROUGHT TO LIGHT", and as you may know(we all do actually) the process of bringing our darkness into the light can be PAINFUL and sometimes it is DISCIPLINARY.

For this reason there is MUCH BENEFIT in repenting, and seeking life in the light- transparent before God and forgiven through Jesus Christ.

[micah7:9]

I am not a Universalist or Trinitarian. With that admitted I hope I will not be overlooked with my thoughts, reasons, and my opinions are welcome to surgery. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

I am not a Universalist or Trinitarian. With that admitted I hope I will not be overlooked with my thoughts, reasons, and my opinions are welcome to surgery. :dsunny:

:thumbsup:

[jbertonbounds]

Raider, you're on the right track. Keep asking questions! :thumbsup:

NEVER STOP SEARCHING!

[Tom]

I think you need to stop generalizing about what "universalists" believe. It's kind of like asking what Christians believe. From what I've seen there's been a wide variety of beliefs associated with Christianity throughout history, and the same is true for those you call "universalists" now. I just call myself a believer, and universal reconciliation just happens to be one of the things I believe because I think it is the truth of scripture.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, it was not my intent. I just have an inquiring mind and as I have already confessed, I don't know much about what universalism teaches.

I don't know how I missed this post, but I wasn't offended, bro. I don't know why you thought so. And I'm sorry if I caused you some confusion with the absolute vs. relative info in my previous post. I was just thinking about how some folks like to use the verse where Thomas calls Christ "God" as what they think is proof that he is. Scripture says Christ is the image of the invisible God. That is the visible expression of God just as he is also the spoken expression of God called the "word." If somebody that knows you sees a picture of you or hears a recording of you, they would say that is you, but it is actually just a visual or audible expression of you. I believe the same is true for Christ who always pointed toward the Father and prayed to the Father.

What I really believe is what scripture says, and that is that the invisible God was in Christ.

"God was in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:19)

But, if somebody is dead set on the Trinity, then I'd have to say that I guess all believers must be in the Trinity because of what scripture says again.

"I have given them the glory which Thou has given Me, that they may be one, according as We are One" (John 17:22)

Here's a link I just came across that gives you some history of how the Trinity was conjured up due to political expediency which had nothing to do with the truth of scripture.

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/god-trinity/surprising-origins-trinity-doctrine/

I'm not really familiar with any other doctrine of this organization. So I don't recommend them, but they seem to have some good info here similar to what I've read before. They just happened to be at the top of the links when I Googled "Trinity origin." There's plenty more info online similar to this. Every believer, including those who believe in universal reconciliation, has to decide which is more important, either scripture or church doctrine that was established by the Roman Empire. I think scripture is sufficient.

It's not my intention to poke the hornet's nest, but I just saw this post that caused me to think I should tell this brother that he didn't offend me. For future reference to all, I don't take things too seriously anymore even if somebody does try to offend me. I actually get amused when somebody does that because I think that person is most likely just puffed up because he is very impressed with himself, but I just think it's funny. We all have our own ideas about everything, and I'm not here to convert anybody, just to share what I think. I figure you can take it or leave it, but you don't need to get tense about it if you disagree because I figure your idea that I might disagree with is just your idea that you have a right to believe even if I think it's crazy. I think you should think I have the same right to believe what you might think is crazy. I'm always open to persuasion though if something different seems like it makes sense, but I'm kind of decided about church doctrine. So you would probably have to come up with something new I haven't heard before.

Anyway, I guess the bottom line here is not just about the Trinity, but don't generalize about folks who believe in universal reconciliation because we are just as diverse as the general public when it comes to opinions about anything, right? 

[RonnyTX]

Maybe it has already been asked, but I dare ask myself from each of you on this site.  :dunno2:

Ronny to Raider:
I haven't read much on this part lately;but the best I remember,some who believe in UR are trinitarian and some aren't.

As for myself,I was brought up in a particular church being taught to believe by some people, that there was God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. God in 3 persons;but one God.  So I don't know if that way of believing is right or not,since I was only taught to believe that way,by some people? And I pray that God will show me for sure,when it is my time to know and understand that.

What I do know for certain,is that God is my heavenly Father and Jesus Christ is my Saviour. The one who went to the cross for me and there,took all of my sins upon himself. And he Jesus,is the Christ,the Messiah,the Son of the living God.

And I was 40 years old,before God taught me to really question some things I was taught in church. That being when God taught me that I had the right to search the scriptures for myself,to see if some things were true or not and in that,to depend upon God to guide me and show me. But the latter,coming at the time of God's choosing.

Now since God freed me,I have noticed some scriptures in the Bible,that I haven't noticed before and or maybe noticed in some ways;but just skipped over? And over a number of years,I have noticed these things and what some other people have to say about them. One of these things I've noticed,is in Colossians 1:15,where it says Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God,the firstborn of all creation. And there is scripture like 1 John 2:1,where Jesus Christ is described as our parclete. And as best I understand it,that is the same Greek word that elsewhere in the scripture,is referred to as the Holy Spirit. And in John 10:33,35,I believe that is where some Pharisees of Jesus time here on earth, where they said he claimed himself to be God  and they condemned him for that. And he answered them with a quote from Psalms 82:6,where he said it said something like, does not your own scripture,say that you are gods. So,I'm not going to try and make a big arguement,that Jesus Christ is God,the 2nd person of the Trinity. But will simply say, that I don't know or understand that for certain and I won't,until God shows me for sure,on this part. But as I've said,I do know that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God and he was the one who was on the cross for me,that taking my sins,upon himself. Now he did that,because he and the Father,loved/loves me just that much. :-) And he was not only there for me;but also for every person,from Adam on down. So,God loves us one and all :-) and Jesus Christ and the cross,is proof of that. And he was and is the Saviour who came to take away the sin of the world,the one who came,to seek and to save that which was lost. Well,that's everyone of us. And what he came to do,he has done or will do and when all is said and done,everyone of us will know that we are so greatly loved of God and we will be back in a right relationship with God! And not just a part of us;but all of us! :-)

Just thinking of somethings I've said above and how greatly I would be condemned for that,by some people I've known in the past and by some,in the present. For I was simply taught in church,to believe without question,everything that was taught there. So some people from my past,they would condemn me for my simply saying,I don't know for sure,on somethings they believed and taught as a sure and completely true thing. But then God has freed me from such people. Those who Jesus Christ had to go to the cross for,just as I had need for him to go there,for me and in my place.

And another thing I know for sure,everyone from Adam on down,we are all God's offspring,we are all God's children and God loves us all,more than we can ever humanly comprehend :-) and that proven,by way of Jesus Christ and the cross. Now some people of the past,they have known they are the much loved children of God and some people of the present,they know the same. Then some people,of both the past and present,they don't know that yet;but they will know and understand that and that at the exact time,that God chooses to reveal such,to each particular person! :-) And when they come to know that,they will then love God and that because,God has first loved them! :-)

[Tom]

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:6)

"For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus, Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:5)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/index.html

[Tom]

https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8

[Lazarus Short]

Eaglesway, I must ask; How is justice served, if evil is not judged?

RG, I know this question was addressed to Eaglesway, but I'd like to say this:

God could have tossed all of us into Dante's Hell for our sins - it would have been His right.  God could have reduced us all to ashes, for that would have been His right too.  However, as He told us in His word, His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.  Instead of revenge, and "getting even," He made another Choice.  Why would a creator God need to get even or to exact revenge anyway, as if He were a man? 

No, and note this well, God's Justice was to send His Own Son to shed His blood and to die for us.  Beyond that, I'm just speechless...

[dajomaco]

No, and note this well, God's Justice was to send His Own Son to shed His blood and to die for us.  Beyond that, I'm just speechless...

enough said  :iagree:

[micah7:9]

Eaglesway, I must ask; How is justice served, if evil is not judged?

RG, I know this question was addressed to Eaglesway, but I'd like to say this:

God could have tossed all of us into Dante's Hell for our sins - it would have been His right.  God could have reduced us all to ashes, for that would have been His right too.  However, as He told us in His word, His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.  Instead of revenge, and "getting even," He made another Choice.  Why would a creator God need to get even or to exact revenge anyway, as if He were a man? 

No, and note this well, God's Justice was to send His Own Son to shed His blood and to die for us.  Beyond that, I'm just speechless...

".....How is justice served, if evil is not judged?"
I do not know where you got that idea, the LoF IS the Judgement for the just and the unjust.
Act 24:15  And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.  :2c:

[Tom]

I believe "the second death-the lake of fire" is for the "unjust" because believers will have eonian life.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[eaglesway]

Evil is always judged. It is discerned(separated), by the Sword of His mouth and the Flames in His eyes- bone and marrow, spirit and soul.

It is "brough to light"- it is written, Nothing is hidden that will not be brought to light".

Light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it. As Paul said, "Everything brought to light becomes light".

Sin is already judged through the death of Adam in every believer who is alive in Christ.

For those who reject the light in this age, with all those from all the ages whose consciences testify that their deeds were not wrought in God(Romans 2), all whose names are not written in the Lamb's book, evrything will be brought to light, in the lake of fire, in the age following the age to come.
I agree with Tom that the lake of fire is for the "unbelievers", the wicked of the ages. Those who believed will be washed in the blood of the lamb, their sins having been remitted already and Adam judged in their flesh through the cross of Christ.

I have said several times before that I think the lake of fire is a heavenly intervention, all beings penetrated by "unaproachable light" in the holy assembly in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus(Hebrews 12, Eph 2)- but of course that is just my opinion.

The light will be torment to them until they yield to the discernment/separation/judgment of God, confessing their sins(bow the knee) and praising God for the cross of Christ.

[micah7:9]

Should you not be the elect,in  the first resurrection, you will be judged....the just and the unjust..... in the Lake of Fire which is the second death. :2c:

[Tom]

I think what you call "the elect" or "the just" meet Christ in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) a thousand years before what you call "the unjust" are judged before the great white throne and condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire."

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[eaglesway]

I do not believe any "just" will be judged in the lake of fire. Only the unjust.  :2c:

As I see it, all those from all the ages, everyone who is not in the first resurrection, from Adam to the last person to die in the millenial reign, will be judged at the Great White Throne.

The just will enter the reconciliation at that time, the unjust will enter kolassis, until they bow the knee and are subjected to the Lordship an unity of Christ.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

[micah7:9]

So from what I have gathered the "just" and the "elect/chosen" are equally the same?
I believe when Jesus said, "many are called but few are chosen" I see the many as the just. I believe the elect/chosen are the few.
I understand the Lake of Fire to be the ultimate refining fire of purification.
I see in the verses below as a very special time, I do not see the "just or the many" I see an ELECT/CHOSEN :2c:
Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So if there is a "first" resurrection, there must be another. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." sounds to me like the "second death"[the LoF] could be that "another?" again my :2c:

"The just will enter the reconciliation at that time..." so there is no decisions [judgments]made in this reconciliation?

Noah was a "just" man, yet he was not and could not be "in Christ."
Ecc 7:20  For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

If the above be true, then the "just" most certainly will be judged.  :2c:
Gotta run to the bank running out of change :dsunny:

[Seth]

In my opinion, if the just are to be in the lake of fire, then they weren't really just. They were most likely having their own righteousness. If we look at the parable of the sheep and goats, to me the description of the goats epitomizes who is in the LOF. Same with the description of who is "outside" the gates.

[micah7:9]

I believe it was clarified that it's not a IN the fire situation. There is to be a judgment, now my  :2c: is that the elect/chosen are being judged now...for those who have ears to hear, by FIRE.
1Pe 4:17  because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?
That judgment is FIRE, my  :2c: is that all judgment is FIRE.  The L of F is the FINAL judgment by FIRE. This is all a spiritual work. 
Joh 5:29  and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

[Seth]

I agree but but I think the fire for the LOF is for destruction not for building faith. For me, the "just" if they are to be in the lake of fire, are actually "ungodly men" who Peter said were reserved for destruction. I agree that fire is a symbol of judgement, but I would say also that not all judgments take the same form. Some fire is representative of Grace, and some for resistance of the proud.

[micah7:9]

I agree but but I think the fire for the LOF is for destruction not for building faith. For me, the "just" if they are to be in the lake of fire, are actually "ungodly men" who Peter said were reserved for destruction. I agree that fire is a symbol of judgement, but I would say also that not all judgments take the same form. Some fire is representative of Grace, and some for resistance of the proud.

Yes, I agree, ".....the fire for the LOF is for destruction not for building faith."
I can almost also agree, ".... the "just" if they are to be in the lake of fire, are actually "ungodly men" the "just" I believe are yet carnal, and that carnality will be burned up.
Yes, " but my  :2c: would read, ....fire is representative of Grace, and it is the proud who resist the fire.