End times?

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug,
The meaning of prophecies failing is not at all that they would be wrong. Not if they were from God!
They would fail in that they would through fulfillment be of no more use.

And Paul did know when the end would come as pertains to the possible life span of the relevant audience in question. He did not know when within that constraint the end would come.
Even within your own view there is a given constraint. Unless one believes it will never happen then there is a interpreted constraint. But the contextual and provable constraint is within the possible life span of those to whom the Epistles were written.


Quote:
By exhorting Christians to prepare, and be ready, and look for Christ's coming, Paul and the apostles were setting an example for the church in all future centuries, and obeying what Jesus said to do:
End quote.

This is so very nonsensical imo.
An example of what? How to be so very wrong about near, and quick and shortly and at hand? Said it before and it bears repeating, if Paul expected it and it did not happen then he was wrong.

You said Doug, on another thread that Zech 14 prophesied what was going on in the church today. How can you possibly know that?

How can you possibly know that it was not referring to what was happening in the first century Church and only about that?

You did claim Doug, that Paul was probably expecting these things in the short time that I've been speaking about. Yet you attempt to detract from the fulfilled view by claiming that Old Testament prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. If Paul was not seeing these things being fulfilled in his time then how could he have probably been expecting the end???  

Now do not get me wrong Doug. I am in no way judging you. I do not do that. I cannot do it. Not without judging myself. It's not my job. You can believe anything you want to as most people do just that.
What I am saying is that without the end that we were supposed to have, (and did have actually) then we are still struggling in the very doctrines and prophecies that have failed already.
Failed because their time was done. Failed because the transitional knowledge or knowledge of the transition has been completed.
The knowledge that ceased was the knowledge of the transition itself. That meaning, once the redemption of the purchased possession has been fully redeemed then the knowledge of awaiting for it ceases.

Then the end result is to know as known. To know as known is to know love without condition. That is how we are known.
Not through the old covenant, not through the law, not through reining death, not through sin separation but through love without condition.  

And that IMO harmonizes with what I've posted on this thread.

I believe this bears repeating:

We have a very very hard time admitting that we are not the audience in question. It does not come easily for us.

If there is an "end" of our prideful life because we experientially see what they went through and so then what they came to see, then in that sense apply the life we have in Christ it is because it has been done not because it is being done.

IMHO it is this that we are having trouble adapting to. And much of that because we really just don't belive that this life is all that wonderful. Our perception dictates our interpretation.

JMO Barry

[Barry DuPont]

Berry, I believe that the end of the world did come for those people standing there and people today IF you "see" it this way: :HeartThrob:

the end comes when one comes to the understanding that they are a new creation IN Christ and the old (separation from God, man dealing with God through another Priest on earth)  is passed away, and understands that ALL NOW deals with God Through Revelation (Mat.16:17) one on one. Only one middle Man, God's Anointed. All are IN Christ NOW, just wake up and see and you are Alive, (some slang-born-again, regenerated, etc.)  But remember this, every person is awaken at God's time table, not at an alter call, confession, etc.

Lee

Yes Lee,
I understand your view. At least fundamentally I think.
That is also why you are free between your ears. :)

It seems that you can put the doctrines of transition behind you and simply accepted your present position. And it is in this acceptance that you and I grow and mature.

The end was not an end to humanity, but a new beginning.
Types and figures have passed away.



Barry

[Zeek]

Even within your own view there is a given constraint. Unless one believes it will never happen then there is a interpreted constraint. But the contextual and provable constraint is within the possible life span of those to whom the Epistles were written.

I understood Doug's position to be that there could never be "an end" because Jesus rose from dead; and his words will never pass away.  All there can ever be, is first fruits, with no consumation ever, because Jesus is alive.  

from post 127 by Doug

"Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation. "


maybe i misunderstood.  ??

[Doug]

I understood Doug's position to be that there could never be "an end" because Jesus rose from dead; and his words will never pass away.  All there can ever be, is first fruits, with no consumation ever, because Jesus is alive.  

from post 127 by Doug

"Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation. "


maybe i misunderstood.  ??

The "firstfruits" are the ones pictured on Mount Sion in Rev. 14.1

Rev. 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


There is also "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [Rev. 7:9, 14]

The "great tribulation," referred to here, I think, is the judgment.

Doug

[Molly]

You said Doug, on another thread that Zech 14 prophesied what was going on in the church today. How can you possibly know that?

How can you possibly know that it was not referring to what was happening in the first century Church and only about that?

Why couldn't it be both then and now?  We are talking about the end of an age, not the end of the world.  Maybe the end of the age looks the same now as then?

As also has been pointed out, it could be talking about the transitions we go through in our own lives.

[Zeek]

I understood Doug's position to be that there could never be "an end" because Jesus rose from dead; and his words will never pass away.  All there can ever be, is first fruits, with no consumation ever, because Jesus is alive.  

from post 127 by Doug

"Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation. "


maybe i misunderstood.  ??

The "firstfruits" are the ones pictured on Mount Sion in Rev. 14.1

Rev. 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


There is also "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [Rev. 7:9, 14]

The "great tribulation," referred to here, I think, is the judgment.

Doug

"this generation will not pass away UNTIL all is fulfilled".

The UNTIL, implies at some point a fulfillment, and if occurs, then "this generation" will have passed away.

am I the only one seeing it this way??

[Doug]

I understood Doug's position to be that there could never be "an end" because Jesus rose from dead; and his words will never pass away.  All there can ever be, is first fruits, with no consumation ever, because Jesus is alive.  

from post 127 by Doug

"Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation. "


maybe i misunderstood.  ??

The "firstfruits" are the ones pictured on Mount Sion in Rev. 14.1

Rev. 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


There is also "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [Rev. 7:9, 14]

The "great tribulation," referred to here, I think, is the judgment.

Doug

"this generation will not pass away UNTIL all is fulfilled".

The UNTIL, implies at some point a fulfillment, and if occurs, then "this generation" will have passed away.

am I the only one seeing it this way??

Luke 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

God's kingdom endures forever. So when is that fufilled? Are you going to insist that "forever" arrived in 70 AD?

Doug

[Doug]

(http://fullpreterism.com/wp-content/themes/thesis_151/rotator/Preterism-70ad.gif)

[Doug]

(http://www.preteristarchive.com/ARTchive/charts/Critical/hyper_donkey.jpg)

[Doug]

(http://fullpreterism.com/wp-content/themes/thesis_151/rotator/world-ended2-252x300.png)

[Zeek]

I understood Doug's position to be that there could never be "an end" because Jesus rose from dead; and his words will never pass away.  All there can ever be, is first fruits, with no consumation ever, because Jesus is alive.  

from post 127 by Doug

"Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation. "


maybe i misunderstood.  ??

The "firstfruits" are the ones pictured on Mount Sion in Rev. 14.1

Rev. 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


There is also "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [Rev. 7:9, 14]

The "great tribulation," referred to here, I think, is the judgment.

Doug

"this generation will not pass away UNTIL all is fulfilled".

The UNTIL, implies at some point a fulfillment, and if occurs, then "this generation" will have passed away.

am I the only one seeing it this way??

Luke 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

God's kingdom endures forever. So when is that fufilled? Are you going to insist that "forever" arrived in 70 AD?

Doug

if you tell me that "you won't die, UNTIL the knicks beat the lakers", and then say, "but you won't ever die"; then it seems logical to me, that I then know the  knicks will never beat the lakers". 

So,

I agree that "his kingdom will never end"; so to me i have to think then; what is "this generation" referring to; or if fulfillment will ever come. 

[Doug]

I understood Doug's position to be that there could never be "an end" because Jesus rose from dead; and his words will never pass away.  All there can ever be, is first fruits, with no consumation ever, because Jesus is alive.  

from post 127 by Doug

"Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation. "


maybe i misunderstood.  ??

The "firstfruits" are the ones pictured on Mount Sion in Rev. 14.1

Rev. 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


There is also "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [Rev. 7:9, 14]

The "great tribulation," referred to here, I think, is the judgment.

Doug

"this generation will not pass away UNTIL all is fulfilled".

The UNTIL, implies at some point a fulfillment, and if occurs, then "this generation" will have passed away.

am I the only one seeing it this way??

Luke 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

God's kingdom endures forever. So when is that fufilled? Are you going to insist that "forever" arrived in 70 AD?

Doug

if you tell me that "you won't die, UNTIL the knicks beat the lakers", and then say, "but you won't ever die"; then it seems logical to me, that I then know the  knicks will never beat the lakers". 

So,

I agree that "his kingdom will never end"; so to me i have to think then; what is "this generation" referring to; or if fulfillment will ever come. 

It simply points out the uniqueness of Jesus' generation; because of the fact that Jesus rose up from the grave to immortality, the "firstborn from the dead," it will not pass away.

Col. 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

You said Doug, on another thread that Zech 14 prophesied what was going on in the church today. How can you possibly know that?

How can you possibly know that it was not referring to what was happening in the first century Church and only about that?

Why couldn't it be both then and now?  We are talking about the end of an age, not the end of the world.  Maybe the end of the age looks the same now as then?

As also has been pointed out, it could be talking about the transitions we go through in our own lives.

This is a very good question Molly imo. And I appreciate you asking my about my reasoning on the topics.

The very first problem (imo) we have is in immortalizing Adam and his effect upon humanity in perpetuity. Adam essentially is never dealt with then "historically".  
It would mean that Christ is not the last Adam, but only the last Adam for all of us once we go through these twists and turns and experiential experiences of growth.

You see, once the cross takes place then an historical precedent occurs. The world in a sense changed. But it was still that age. Until types and figures which were promised to be dealt with were to pass away.

The problem then is types and figures are then only dealt with in our minds not historically. Instead of historically then, between our ears.
The two approaches are very different indeed.

One approach condemns humanity to an immortalized Adam and the other frees it into a world of a different form. Where the kingdoms of this world then belong to Christ. We now come into that realization without the need to go through whops and twists doctrines of transformation.

Much more could be said but maybe this is a bit of an intro.
Blessings Barry

[Doug]

Hey Doug,
The meaning of prophecies failing is not at all that they would be wrong. Not if they were from God!
They would fail in that they would through fulfillment be of no more use.

A fulfilled prophecy would still be of use, as it confirms that God has fulfilled his word.

But, if prophecies were misunderstood, and misinterpreted, as they often are, they might appear to have failed.

And Paul did know when the end would come as pertains to the possible life span of the relevant audience in question. He did not know when within that constraint the end would come.
Even within your own view there is a given constraint. Unless one believes it will never happen then there is a interpreted constraint. But the contextual and provable constraint is within the possible life span of those to whom the Epistles were written.


Quote:
By exhorting Christians to prepare, and be ready, and look for Christ's coming, Paul and the apostles were setting an example for the church in all future centuries, and obeying what Jesus said to do:
End quote.

This is so very nonsensical imo.
An example of what?

An example of obedience to Christ? See Mark 13:37, where he said to "Watch."

How to be so very wrong about near, and quick and shortly and at hand? Said it before and it bears repeating, if Paul expected it and it did not happen then he was wrong.

So what? They were told to "watch." And the early Christians did.

You said Doug, on another thread that Zech 14 prophesied what was going on in the church today. How can you possibly know that?

How can you possibly know that it was not referring to what was happening in the first century Church and only about that?

Zechariah was writing about "the day of the Lord." [Zech 14:1]

And the apostle Peter said the prophets ministered "unto us," or the church, and spoke by the spirit of Christ that was in them, and wrote about the gospel, "the grace that should come unto you ... unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." [1 Pet. 1:13]

From what Peter said, and other scriptures, it became clear to me that Zechariah must have written about the church, under the figure of Jerusalem, as Alexander also wrote in his commentary, which I quoted from. John also confirms this in Rev. 20:8-9, which refers to the church as the "camp of the saints" and "the beloved city" that is compassed round about by people of the earth, deceived by Satan. Rev. 12:9 says he "decieveth the whole world."

You did claim Doug, that Paul was probably expecting these things in the short time that I've been speaking about.

Paul probably learned some things during his lifetime, don't you think? Most of us continue to learn, and that usually involves shedding some former opinions. But perhaps, some of the things he wrote in the early years that did not apply to his generation, were preserved in scripture for another generation of saints to benefit from, to whom they do apply. It would fit the pattern of some of the OT revelations.

Yet you attempt to detract from the fulfilled view by claiming that Old Testament prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. If Paul was not seeing these things being fulfilled in his time then how could he have probably been expecting the end???  

See my previous comment.

Now do not get me wrong Doug. I am in no way judging you. I do not do that. I cannot do it. Not without judging myself. It's not my job. You can believe anything you want to as most people do just that.
What I am saying is that without the end that we were supposed to have, (and did have actually) then we are still struggling in the very doctrines and prophecies that have failed already.
Failed because their time was done.

No, hyper preterists failed to understand that Christ having been raised from the dead means that his generation has not passed away. They built their system of a foundation of disbelief. IMO

Doug

[Zeek]

No, hyper preterists failed to understand that Christ having been raised from the dead means that his generation has not passed away. They built their system of a foundation of disbelief. IMO

Doug

Can you connect the dots for me on where "this generation" is referring to "his generation" again.  You probably did this already; but I didn't get it.

it seems right to me to connect these dots with "this generation"

Mat 11:16  But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

Mat 12:41  The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and, behold, a greater than Jonah is here.

Mat 12:42  The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Mat 12:45  Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Mat 23:36  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
 

[Doug]

No, hyper preterists failed to understand that Christ having been raised from the dead means that his generation has not passed away. They built their system of a foundation of disbelief. IMO

Doug

Can you connect the dots for me on where "this generation" is referring to "his generation" again.  You probably did this already; but I didn't get it.

it seems right to me to connect these dots with "this generation"

Mat 11:16  But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

Mat 12:41  The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and, behold, a greater than Jonah is here.

Mat 12:42  The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Mat 12:45  Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Mat 23:36  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
 

Consider Luke 11:48-50:
48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; 

The blood of the prophets who had been slain in all the previous centuries was required of Jesus, when he took the sin of all men upon himself, as he died on the cross.

His own death seems to be what Jesus referred to here. Those who actually killed him had a part in it too. So Jesus, and those who killed him, represent "this generation." And Jesus was revived, and remains alive, and represents that generation, so his generation has not passed away.

Doug

[Molly]

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

--Rev 22

[Yeshua-Song]

However imo it is in the house of God where judgement began. IE with the Judaizers and so then fully toward the none believing Jews in general at the destruction of Jerusalem.

i thought Jesus told His followers to flee Jerusalem when they would see it surrounded by the armies of pagan rome. He preached salvation to His followers, not judgment.

judgment fell mainly on unbelieving Israel, as Jesus said it would in Olivet.

Jesus also never spoke about "Judaizers". that was a problem that arose in apostolic times.

[Beloved Servant]

Genesis 1:5
New King James Version

5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.


God's day starts at night. As does our new day each time the clock strikes midnight.

[Barry DuPont]

However imo it is in the house of God where judgement began. IE with the Judaizers and so then fully toward the none believing Jews in general at the destruction of Jerusalem.

i thought Jesus told His followers to flee Jerusalem when they would see it surrounded by the armies of pagan rome. He preached salvation to His followers, not judgment.

judgment fell mainly on unbelieving Israel, as Jesus said it would in Olivet.

Jesus also never spoke about "Judaizers". that was a problem that arose in apostolic times.

Yes indeed.
Allow me to clarify if I can my thoughts.

Not all Jewish believers are Judaizers. (not that you are saying that just clarifying)
The Judaizers were so called "believers" who were false teachers teaching the Gentiles to come under Israel's "natural" things and live like the Jews with food and drink obligations and new moons and Sabbath days and circumcision.
[they also began to teach at some point between Pentecost and the epistles of Thessalonians and Timothy that the day of Christ had already come and the resurrection had already come]

Correctly believing Jews accepted that the Gentiles were not to be brought into customs of Moses. The correctly believing Jews were however Zealous of the law and kept the old covenant law teachings and customs until the end (the end of the old covenant heavens and earth or AD 70. The observed the "elements of the world"). The correctly believing Jews also maintained temple worship and sacrifice as types and figures that were about to vanish away.

Side Note:
The surrounding armies as predicted in Luke were the armies of the Jews. This predicted the unrest of the coming three prong civil war of the Jews that in part led up to the coming of the Romans.
That meaning that the "abomination" in question which was the signal to leave was caused by the Jews not the Romans in the Jewish civil war. John (forgot his full name) entered into the temple and took refuge, there (against the law) which was an abomination, and did happen just prior to the advance of the Roman armies. While the Romans did destroy the temple they are not the "abomination" that is mentioned, which took place before the armies of the Romans appeared.  

The Judgment which did begin in the House of God which was the church was between the Judaizers and the true apostles and true teaching. This judgment began the larger scope of Judgment which would be finalized in the then coming destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.  
1Pe 4:8   And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.  
1Pe 4:9   Use hospitality one to another without grudging.  
1Pe 4:10   As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.  
1Pe 4:11   If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.  
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:  

1Pe 4:17   For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?  
1Pe 4:18   And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?   1Pe 4:19   Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.  

The setting is one of being saved through sufferings and  difficulty due the pressure and persecution. That formed a Judgment that began at the house of God.
Like described here:
2Ti 2:9   Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, [even] unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.  
2Ti 2:10   Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.  
2Ti 2:11   [It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:  
2Ti 2:12   If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:  
2Ti 2:13   If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.  
2Ti 2:14  Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers.  
2Ti 2:15   Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.  
Ti 2:16   But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.  
2Ti 2:17   And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

2Ti 2:19   Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.  
2Ti 2:20   But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.  
2Ti 2:21   If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.

While the judgment is not exclusively concerning the Judaizers it was predominantly about this. The Judaizers did not suffer the intense persecution that the other Christians did. Galatians speaks of this point often.

In this way Judgment began in the house of God. But was finalized in the end of the age.
Hope I connected the dots enough.

Barry

[Doug]

However imo it is in the house of God where judgement began. IE with the Judaizers and so then fully toward the none believing Jews in general at the destruction of Jerusalem.

i thought Jesus told His followers to flee Jerusalem when they would see it surrounded by the armies of pagan rome. He preached salvation to His followers, not judgment.

judgment fell mainly on unbelieving Israel, as Jesus said it would in Olivet.

Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;

Which Jerusalem? Did anyone flee to the mountains in 70 AD? Is that what Jesus meant? If so, why did he say this?

Luke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Could the prophecy apply to the events in the first century, and to the events foretold by Zechariah too?

Events of 70 AD do not fit the prophecy of Zech. 14:1-5, as the Romans were victorious; Christ did not fight on behalf of the Jews; the mount of Olives did not cleave in the midst, etc.  

The "Jerusalem" of Zech. 14 is the new Jerusalem, the church, [Heb. 12:22-23] which is also called the bride of the Lamb. [Rev 21:2] The "beloved city" and "the camp of the saints" is described as compassed about by the hordes of Gog and Magog, deceived by Satan, from the four quarters of the earth, in Rev. 20:8-9. This links to both Ezek. 38-39, and Zech. 14; Ezek. 38-39 because it refers to Gog and Magog, and Zech. 14 because it is about the holy city being compassed about by all the people of the earth.

In Zech. 14 all nations gather against Jerusalem, to battle. And the city is taken; houses rifled; women ravished; and half the city goes into captivity. I suggest this is referring to a spiritual battle. The prophecy describes the church being taken over by leaders who are spiritually Gentiles, and by false teachers, which applies to much of the church's history. "Houses rifled" suggests they seek material wealth. "Women ravished" is a metaphor depicting people being seduced by false teachers as Paul alludes to in 2 Cor. 11:3.

The mount of Olives being cleaved in the midst may represent the two contrasting interpretations of the Olivet Discourse of Jesus in modern times, preterism and dispensationalism. Zechariah said "the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains;" --it is this "valley of the mountains" that Jesus probably alludes to.

I suggest to flee towards this valley represents abandoning dispensationalism and preterism, and applying the Olivet prophecy of Jesus, and most of prophecy, to the entire age of the church, rather than to Jews in 70 AD, or to Jews in a future 7 years tribulation as dispensationalists say. Zechariah says to flee as if from an earthquake, suggesting there is some urgency. And Rev. 12:12 may provide the reason: "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Then the living waters go forth from the church to the world, which represents the true gospel, and the Lord is king over the entire earth. [Zech 14:8-9]

Doug

[Doug]

The Judgment which did begin in the House of God which was the church was between the Judaizers and the true apostles and true teaching. This judgment began the larger scope of Judgment which would be finalized in the then coming destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
...
The setting is one of being saved through sufferings and  difficulty due the pressure and persecution. That formed a Judgment that began at the house of God.
Like described here:
2Ti 2:9   Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, [even] unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.  
2Ti 2:10   Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.  
2Ti 2:11   [It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:  
2Ti 2:12   If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:  
2Ti 2:13   If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.  
2Ti 2:14  Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers.  
2Ti 2:15   Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.  
Ti 2:16   But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.  
2Ti 2:17   And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

2Ti 2:19   Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.  
2Ti 2:20   But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.  
2Ti 2:21   If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.

Any reason for leaving out verse 18 in the above quote, Barry?

2 Tim. 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Hmm... It identifies their doctrine as a heresy, right?

Doug

[Beloved Servant]

And where do these living waters come from?

John 4
14 yet whoever may be drinking of the water which I shall be giving him, shall under no circumstances be thirsting for the eon, but the water which I shall be giving him will become in him a spring of water, welling up into life eonian."

John 7
38 He who is believing in Me, according as the scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water."

John 19
34but one of the soldiers with a spear did pierce his side

[Doug]

And where do these living waters come from?

John 4
14 yet whoever may be drinking of the water which I shall be giving him, shall under no circumstances be thirsting for the eon, but the water which I shall be giving him will become in him a spring of water, welling up into life eonian."

John 7
38 He who is believing in Me, according as the scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water."

See the next verse:

John 7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Spirit came from Christ:

Acts 2:32-33
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Doug

[Beloved Servant]

Amen Doug!

— which ye now see and hear
Also, notice that it was a soldier with a lance that pierced His side!
An outside instigation!