Tentmaker Forum

I am sure this has been answered here many times, so forgive me for asking again. I am trying to read as much as I can about the UR doctrine, but reading about the Lake of fire last night, and seeing plainly that there will be souls judged and thrown into it, how do you reconcile that with UR?

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15


Thanks,


S

1/3 down the page "Lake of Fire Series" A lot to read. But good. http://bible-truths.com/

Personally I believe there is no real fire. It's more a spiritual fire of Father.
Neither is it eternal. I've a little list with verses that all link God to fire. In a cleaning way.
I'm not at home right now so a quick quote of what I wrote in another thread.

QuoteTormented usally is read as tortured. I did read it that way too (due to my poor English)
But after looking below the surface tormented also means "testing"
Selective quote from Strong:

QuoteTormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

I especially like the part of purity of gold. Like a refinary that also cleans the dirt out of gold.
And that aligns perfectly with:
Malachi 3:2   But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Malachi 3:3  And he shall sit as a refiner (uses fire) and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi (priests), and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

sscoulter,

The Book of Revelation informs us that all evil will be destroyed in the lake of fire.  Would this not include the evil in you and I?

Quote from: Apocatastasis on February 04, 2009, 06:25:42 PM
sscoulter,

The Book of Revelation informs us that all evil will be destroyed in the lake of fire.  Would this not include the evil in you and I?

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.


Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.


Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 03:20:09 PM
1/3 down the page "Lake of Fire Series" A lot to read. But good. http://bible-truths.com/

Personally I believe there is no real fire. It's more a spiritual fire of Father.
Neither is it eternal. I've a little list with verses that all link God to fire. In a cleaning way.
I'm not at home right now so a quick quote of what I wrote in another thread.

QuoteTormented usally is read as tortured. I did read it that way too (due to my poor English)
But after looking below the surface tormented also means "testing"
Selective quote from Strong:

QuoteTormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

I especially like the part of purity of gold. Like a refinary that also cleans the dirt out of gold.
And that aligns perfectly with:
Malachi 3:2   But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Malachi 3:3  And he shall sit as a refiner (uses fire) and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi (priests), and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Thank you for the link, I think I have seen this site before, but I had never read any of the articles, and then could not find it, so again thank you.


S

Lake of Fire uses the same OT imagery as the cleansing laver in the temple. There's a great e-book on UR from the perspective of OT imagery in a link to the pdf book off of  www.savior-of-all.com

The title of the e-book is Creation's Jubilee.   :thumbsup:

Quote from: Doc on February 04, 2009, 11:38:30 PM
Lake of Fire uses the same OT imagery as the cleansing laver in the temple. There's a great e-book on UR from the perspective of OT imagery in a link to the pdf book off of  www.savior-of-all.com

The title of the e-book is Creation's Jubilee.   :thumbsup:

Thanks Doc, I will check that out.


S

Quote from: docLake of Fire uses the same OT imagery as the cleansing laver in the Temple.

Can you expound on this?

Quote from: Apocatastasis on February 05, 2009, 12:50:53 AM

Quote from: docLake of Fire uses the same OT imagery as the cleansing laver in the Temple.

Can you expound on this?

No; I've read several others who have made this connection, but it has been awhile. Feel free to check out the link to the e-book. I think this was one of the authors I read that talked about it.

Doc, the link you provided does not direct me to a book. Can you give me a more direct link?

Quote from: Apocatastasis on February 05, 2009, 02:09:21 AM
Doc, the link you provided does not direct me to a book. Can you give me a more direct link?

I don't think a direct link will work. Click on the Free Downloads link at the bottom of that main page at savior-of-all.com, and the page should come up with the link to the Creation's Jubilee pdf.

http://www.savior-of-all.com/Creation%27s%20Jubilee.pdf

Hey Apoc;

QuoteLake of Fire uses the same OT imagery as the cleansing laver in the Temple.

Can you expound on this?

Hey sscoulter;

3 Zephaniah 8"Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD,
         "For the day when I rise up as a witness
         Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
         To assemble kingdoms,
         To pour out on them My indignation,
         All My burning anger;
         For all the earth will be devoured
         By the fire of My zeal.
      9"For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
         That all of them may call on the name of the LORD,
         To serve Him shoulder to shoulder.

and we all know, "Whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved."

literal death is also a possible interpretation:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

Another good word from J. Preston Eby; 

Because of the gross misunderstanding of almost all people concerning the lake of fire, I would like to draw your attention to three words found in the passage quoted above. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which BURNS with FIRE and BRIMSTONE: which is the second death." The word BURN means combustion, or to consume. To consume does not mean to annihilate, for there is no such thing as annihilation in the absolute sense. When fire consumes a log in your fireplace it does not destroy any of the elements within the log, it merely changes their form.  Thus, to burn, means to CHANGE.

Fire is heat and light.

Charles Pridgeon says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone;   To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek.

God's blessing, James.

I heard a great teaching on the lake of fire, the other day.  He compared it to the brass laver outside of the temple where the priests would wash before entering the temple.  He said the laver was made of polished brass which would act as a mirror, so they could also see their reflection in it.  If anything was amiss, spot on clothes, hair out of place, etc, they were to fix that before entering the temple.  They were also to wash hands and feet before entering the temple.

Then he said this is the same function of the sea of glass which is also known as the sea of brass, and which I was assuming was also the lake of fire [this could be a wrong assumption,though].  The purpose is to reflect our image so that it can be perfected and purified. 


Revelation 15:2
And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God.

willieH: Hi SSC... :hithere:

You are observing a SPIRITUAL and SYMBOLIC book... and in order to gain vision of it, you must view it in the SPIRIT and gain the meaning of its SYMBOLS in the SPIRIT...

UR is not penalized by the existence of the Lake of FIRE... when the LOF is SPIRITUALLY viewed to be what it actually, IS...

The LOF is NOT... "future"... it is "HERE" and "NOW"...

CHRIST was tried in FIRE... (Rev 3:18)  ...as are we (Mk 9:49 / 1 Pet 4:12 / 1 Cor 3:11-15)...

What do we think all the misery and pain and suffering ENDURED in this life is?   :dontknow:  Some "precursor" to an even worse future?  War, AIDS, cancer, marital infidelity, identity theft, adultery, natural disasters, ...Come, now!

This life is FULL of FIRE of every sort... which costs us all, some to larger degrees than others, but in every life, it is PURPOSED and ordained according to the WILL of the Creator -- Rom 9:19-21

Quote from: sscoulter on February 04, 2009, 03:07:12 PM
I am sure this has been answered here many times, so forgive me for asking again. I am trying to read as much as I can about the UR doctrine, but reading about the Lake of fire last night, and seeing plainly that there will be souls judged and thrown into it, how do you reconcile that with UR?

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15

Thanks,

S

The book of the "REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST" is not "CHRONOLOGICAL"... as "in",  ..."beginning at "Chap 1 and ending at Chap 22"...

ALL within the REVELATION of He (who has neither beginning or end), are invested in MEN from their individual beginning [alpha] to their individual end [omega] and which are encompassed in the ONE who is BOTH (alpha & omega)... simulataneously -- at ALL "times"...

"Chronology" is often employed when observing the "Revelation" by those using TIME as the basis for its vision, and therefore, that vision becomes, ...finite vision...

ETERNAL VISION of the (revealed) essence of the ONE who IS both the alpha and omega, and the ONE who IS NOT "Chronological"...

NONE were written in the book of life, for ALL are appointed once to DIE, found CAST into THIS LIFE of suffering and pain... (Heb 9:27)

THIS lifetime on THIS Earth, IS the Lake of FIRE...  :mshock:  In which CHRIST was tried, and DIED -- and which we each in turn, ...are also tried, and DIE...

EVIL ...IS... conquered by the LIFE, death, and RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST, but concerning each individual, ...it's TIME must run its course... in each... despite the ETERNAL fact that it IS already defeated.

As IN ADAM... ALL DIE (not written in the "book" of life)... so IN CHRIST shall ALL be made ALIVE (written in the "book" of HIS LIFE)  1 Cor 15:22

...willieH  :cloud9:

Quote from: sven on February 05, 2009, 07:34:23 PM
literal death is also a possible interpretation:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

Implies that physical death and hades are cast into physical death.  Death swallowed up in death.

  Good post,Willie.

   O' death where is your sting, I will be deaths plague...and He

  is resurrection is the death of death.

                           Sheila

Quote from: sheila on April 10, 2009, 02:44:46 AM


  Good post,Willie.

   O' death where is your sting, I will be deaths plague...and He

  is resurrection is the death of death.

                           Sheila

:2thumbs: :handshake:

...willieH    :cloud9:

If the LOF is here and now, this lifetime, then what of those who die in their sin?

The scriptures say when a man dies he ceases from sin, so how are these people judged after death?

If you read this, im sure you will be very enlightened.

http://tankrumblings.blogspot.com/2009/05/lake-burning-with-fire-and-brimstone.html

Quote from: meefsgirl on October 08, 2009, 01:03:15 AM

If the LOF is here and now, this lifetime, then what of those who die in their sin?

The scriptures say when a man dies he ceases from sin, so how are these people judged after death?

The LOF is called "the second death" in Rev. 21:8, which implies there has to be a resurrection. Jesus said there would be a resurrection of judgment.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

The KJV says "damnation," but I think it actually refers to the judgment. You can check some other translations; the NASB says judgment.

Isaiah said there will be a time when knowledge of God fills the earth, as water covers the sea.

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Jeremiah said the word of God is like fire; also Jesus said he came to "send fire on the earth." [Jer. 23:29; Luke 12:49]

If John used Isaiah's metaphor of waters of the sea, and combined it with the metaphor of fire, mentioned by Jeremiah and Jesus, he would very likely get the idea of a "lake of fire," which is a metaphor representing the purging and purification that must be connected with the judgment. In Rev. 7:14 John refers to the judgment as "great tribulation." The knowledge of God will probably feel a bit like "fire" to the wicked.

Doug

Thanks for your answers! However, I do believe in the cleansing of the LOF... but what I'm confused about is... what is cleansed?

If we are to 'die' to the flesh, is that what dies in the LOF? If it is anything within that is not of God... is that what is cleansed?

The scriptures say that the flesh dies and the spirit returns to God at physical death. So if the flesh is already dead...

What exactly is resurrected? The flesh nature? The body of flesh and blood?  :dontknow:

 :cloud9: The soul.......Blessings....

And the soul contains the flesh nature? (I'm having an online discussion with someone who believes in annihilation)

     You have to remember that the lake of fire is of God, or created by God for whatever reason. And God is love.    So the lake of fire is the fire of love.  What do you think the fire of love is for?  :happy3:

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 08, 2009, 04:37:40 AM
     You have to remember that the lake of fire is of God, or created by God for whatever reason. And God is love.    So the lake of fire is the fire of love.  What do you think the fire of love is for?  :happy3:

:goodpost:

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 08, 2009, 04:37:40 AM
     You have to remember that the lake of fire is of God, or created by God for whatever reason. And God is love.    So the lake of fire is the fire of love.  What do you think the fire of love is for?  :happy3:

That's what I'm asking????

I know that it is God, and that He is love and that the LOF is for purification and cleansing, but....

What is it that is destroyed in the LOF?

 :cloud9: Everything that is not of His nature IN us. We were made, spirit, soul, and body. You know where 2 went, now you know what happens to the other one. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on October 08, 2009, 05:28:23 AM
:cloud9: Everything that is not of His nature IN us. We were made, spirit, soul, and body. You know where 2 went, now you know what happens to the other one. Blessings....

Are we raised, and I mean this mostly of unbelievers, with the flesh nature still intact, with all it's sin and demons, etc?

The flesh has been nailed to the Cross; FOR ALL — FOREVER

 :cloud9: No.....

Quote from: meefsgirl on October 08, 2009, 05:25:58 AM

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 08, 2009, 04:37:40 AM
     You have to remember that the lake of fire is of God, or created by God for whatever reason. And God is love.    So the lake of fire is the fire of love.  What do you think the fire of love is for?  :happy3:

That's what I'm asking????

I know that it is God, and that He is love and that the LOF is for purification and cleansing, but....

What is it that is destroyed in the LOF?

pride,

the self defined person,

fear

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 08, 2009, 05:34:41 AM
The flesh has been nailed to the Cross; FOR ALL — FOREVER

Then what is cleansed away from mankind in the Lake of Fire?

Why can't I get a direct answer to a direct question?

I think I'll start another thread....

Quote from: meefsgirl on October 08, 2009, 09:23:51 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 08, 2009, 05:34:41 AM
The flesh has been nailed to the Cross; FOR ALL — FOREVER

Then what is cleansed away from mankind in the Lake of Fire?

Why can't I get a direct answer to a direct question?

I think I'll start another thread....

In the judgment, delusions, i.e., the "covering cast over all people" in the scripture below, that have veiled the minds of people to the truth, will be destroyed.

Isa. 25:7-8
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Doug

Quote from: meefsgirl on October 08, 2009, 09:23:51 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 08, 2009, 05:34:41 AM
The flesh has been nailed to the Cross; FOR ALL — FOREVER

Then what is cleansed away from mankind in the Lake of Fire?

Why can't I get a direct answer to a direct question?

I think I'll start another thread....

:cloud9: I did give you a direct answer. Everything that is not like God. So; that means the lusts of the flesh nature of man (not talking skin here) such as greed, lust, avarice, malice, envy, jealousy, pride, hate, ect. These things are what is being burned up in the Lake of Fire.

Compare with the 3 Hebrew children who were cast into the fiery furnace. Only their bonds were consumed with fire, but they themselves were unharmed. Blessings.....

God is love. 1 Jn 4:8,16
God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. 1 Jn 1:5
Our God is a consuming fire.Deut 4:24, Hebrews 12:29
"Every man's work will be tested by fire, for the "Day" shall reveal it.(1 Cor 3:15)
For He must reign until every adversary is made a footstool for His feet, the last enemy to be done away with is death(1 Cor 15:25,26).

We see death and sheol cast into the lake of fire.
They are adversaries to the "glorious liberty" into which all creation is redeemed(for freedom Christ has set you free).
Every chain, every veil, every "adversary" to the love of God is consumed in the fire because God is light and in Him no darkness is.
For all to be gathered together into one in Christ(Ephesians 1:1-11), for all to be reconciled unto the Father(Col 1:16-21), for God to be "ALL IN ALL"(1 Cor. 15:28) all darkness, rebellion, ignorance, deception, any separation from the divine nature must be consumed in the fire.

Thats why any branch that does not "abide in the vine", "whithers", gets pruned, and thrown into the fire- it's all about partaking of the divine nature- LOVE Y'ALL- WE ALL GONNA FLOW IN LOVE!  :happygrin:

Rev 20:12-15  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  (13)  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  (14)  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  (15)  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Quote from: meefsgirl on October 08, 2009, 09:23:51 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 08, 2009, 05:34:41 AM
The flesh has been nailed to the Cross; FOR ALL — FOREVER

Then what is cleansed away from mankind in the Lake of Fire?

Why can't I get a direct answer to a direct question?

I think I'll start another thread....

Whats destroyed is the Cause of DEATH[ death of death] itself , where does DEATH live[ well in the grave of Course after a Spiritual Truth ], The soul being The Heart/ mind, will desire and emotions of that which is Flesh , as Paul states to BE CARNALLY minded is DEATH , and is Not subject to the Law of the Spirit ....Romans 8 is a great chapter..

TIS a reneweing of the Soul  :icon_flower:

Taffy,

Loved your post.  :HeartThrob: Anything that is associated with death whether it be physical or spiritual will be cast into the lake of fire!!!  This is what you are saying, right?     :thumbsup:

CHB

Quote from: CHB on October 08, 2009, 08:45:58 PM

Taffy,

Loved your post.  :HeartThrob: Anything that is associated with death whether it be physical or spiritual will be cast into the lake of fire!!!  This is what you are saying, right?     :thumbsup:

CHB

:icon_flower:

The soul which is cleansed, as In moving from DEATH to LIFE in HIM. :icon_flower:

I see the second death and the lake of fire a little differently than some. The gathering together of all things in Christ is an administration suitable to the fulness of times, there are historical periods involved, for instance, as in the 'world before Noah", as in partial hardening of Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles is brought in, all Israel will be saved but...."each on his own order." The ressurection of life is assured for all, but we were once enemies, hostile of mind and darkened in understanding. We have "Now Received the reconciliation" by repentance and faith which is the gift of God. We are no longer enemies, "if we continue in the faith". Some are still enemies, in varying degrees. All will be reconciled-every enemy will repent and believe the gospel-every single one. They will all alike confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father. The second death and the lake of fire play a part in that. Before anyone gets crazy- I am not talking about burning flesh or any such thing.
   Those who have died.....who have reckoned themselves dead because of faith in Christ's tasting death for them and faith in His resurrection.....who have stood in the fire(and having done all to stand), whether they were hired in the AM or the eleventh hour (parable of workers in a field) will participate in the first resurrection and will reign as a kingdom of priests (a divine reign of love and reconciliation) 1000 years. All the rest of the dead will appear before the judgement seat of Christ to be judged by the secrets of their hearts(romans ch 1&2). Everyone whose name has not been written in the book of life (to Him who overcomes I will not blot his name out of the book of life) will enter directly into whatever the joy of the Lord is. The rest will experience the lake of fire- whatever that is, and "the Day"(1 Cor 3:15- 17) will reveal, make void and unravel the darkness, adversaries, veils, rebellions etc. The flesh is nailed to the cross fr all forever- but it has no benefit until it is received. Psalm 51..... Against thee and thee only have I sinned and done that which is evil in thy sight....purge me with hyssop and I will be clean..... repentance and faith are the way that the adversaries become reconciled.

Quote from: sscoulter on February 04, 2009, 03:07:12 PM
I am sure this has been answered here many times, so forgive me for asking again. I am trying to read as much as I can about the UR doctrine, but reading about the Lake of fire last night, and seeing plainly that there will be souls judged and thrown into it, how do you reconcile that with UR?

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15


Thanks,


S

Hi friend,
If you can accept that revelation is symbolic, you will be able to understand what my presented view on it is, because I think it is clearly symbolic. Here is what I see, regarding the PICTURE of the lake of fire presented in Revelation.

We cannot separate the LOF from the picture of "New Jerusalem" which is described in the Book of Hebrews as "the church of the firstborn." In Revelation God says "I make my tabernacle with man" then the book proceeds to describe a descending city, which is the SYMBOL of the "church of the living God." That city is not brick and mortar. It's not anything physical like that. It's the church. It's the Spirit filled OBEDIENT (ie not just the faith claimers).

One CANNOT analyze Gehenna/Lake of Fire without also considering Jerusalem, because this is a picture. You cannot look at only one part of a painting and think it is the whole painting. You have to look at the whole thing. What is the picture Jesus painted with the parables?

Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city? What city? Jerusalem. What does that symbolize? Heaven and Hell? No. New Jerusalem is the church, the bride, not heaven itself.

Does it not stand to reason that the picture of the LOF is therefore, not "hell" but that which is spiritually outside the Spirit filled obedient church? That places the lake of fire spiritually in the world TODAY and YESTERDAY and TOMORROW, until ALL people are brought in to the church.

This is why I do not say that members of the Body are currently in the LOF. No, that would be to ignore the picture. We WERE in the LOF until we heeded the words of the Bride:

Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

The "water of life": another symbol in this unveiling of Jesus Christ, the body, the bride (who is ONE with that Christ). The book of revelation is the unveiling of Jesus Christ, and who is Jesus Christ: The Lord and his increase. Revelation is symbolic of the church whose head is the man Jesus Christ, and whose members are his obedient.

The Bride does not TOMORROW say "come drink" do they? No, that's not future stuff. That's NOW. Come drink, is what that bride, that New Jerusalem says. Come drink the water we drink from, that Spirit. Who do they speak these words to, even today? The Spiritually DEPLETED: the dogs (spiritual Gentiles) whoremongers, liars, all in the LOF.

This is why you do not need to fear sscoulter. The Lake of Fire is not carnal, but spiritual. It is not physical, but a spiritual condition which exists even today. Paul said that the INVISIBLE things of God are understood by the things which are MADE.

We understand the invisible spiritual condition of slavery to sin as a burning lake of fire, in which those who are in it today (look around you at the lonelyness of Spirit in the ghetto, in the war theatres, in the abusive homes etc) by the physical SYMBOL of the Lake of Fire. You cannot see what the LOF symbolizes. FIRE is that which is MADE by which we understand the invisible condition of lacking in Spirit on the inside of all them who are there right now even on this earth.

Look at the Prodigal Son parable and you will understand how those who were in the House, were cast out into the outer darkness and eventually returned to drink from the water of life. The Prodigal Son did the same thing. He left the house, went out into a burning lake of fire where he was a slave to sin, thirsty for water, and then returned to his father's house where his father received him. He was dead, then he was alive. He was lost, then he was found.

How we reconcile this with UR is incredibly simple: Righteousness in the Spirit and deliverance from sin is a gift purchased on the Cross (Romans 5) and that gift cannot be refused. So God will inspire all to drink from the water of life, be buried in baptism of the Spirit and planted together in Christ's death to the flesh, and therefore be saved from sin and loneliness of Spirit.

That is what I believe about the LOF. It just makes sense to me based on the NT's testimony of the gift of the Spirit and salvation from sin, and spiritual circumcision, and spiritual Gentile and Jew etc etc etc.

Also, I have been considering the idea that the term "second death" is not necessarily a statement of sequence (by which one death follows another) but a statement of supremacy (that one thing is over another). All things are placed under Christ's feet, which is why the last enemy to be destroyed (according to Paul) is death. Which death is the enemy: dying to the flesh, or dying in the flesh. I would say that the second death mentioned in that last sentence is the enemy.

Perhaps the term "second death" means that death TO sin in Christ is so far above death IN sin apart from Christ, that the very term "second death" is a statement of Christ's superiority over the flesh. Therefore he able to deliver those who suffer in the lower death into a much higher death by the Spirit away from the flesh. Just something I am considering, that the term "second death" may not be horizontal, but vertical, one thing over another. That would certainly reconcile Revelation 21-22 with the fact that God is love and being love, He will indeed destroy all barriers to be all in all.

Wondering if most here see the "wrath of God" as the same thing as the LOF/second death? 

Through this wrath, death of death (ministration of death, law mindset). 


Or is the wrath of God not the same as LOF??


Where I'm coming from, is we know the LAW worketh wrath.  And the wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness (liars, etc). 

And the law is the tutor to lead us to Christ,

but once faith is come, one is no longer under a tutor.

but


under grace, (chastening by fire as a son).


The law came through Moses

grace came through Christ. 



So the trial of one's FAITH by fire, can not be the same as the LOF/second death (if it is the same as the wrath of God, via law abiding mindset).



and if all go through lake of fire for purification; then personally; my lake of fire (from law to FAITH) wasn't that "horrible of a lot".  As long as I can remember (since 4 years old), I've had faith in Christ, and had my faith tried; but to come to that faith, wasn't that horrible. 

Anyway, my point really being; I don't see how the trial by fire (of our faith) is the LOF, when I am not under LAW. 



any thots?

Quote from: Seth on October 09, 2009, 02:38:40 AM

This is why I do not say that members of the Body are currently in the LOF. No, that would be to ignore the picture. We WERE in the LOF until we heeded the words of the Bride:

so do you believe you once were "hurt" of the second death? 

what does it mean to be "hurt of the second death", since per Rev 2; some won't be hurt of it; which implies some will be hurt of it??

Is the wrath of God the same as second death??

Seems to me the second death is not those in the "outer court", but rather the "wrath" revealed against those in the outer court.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

but for those "who hold the truth in unrighteousness",


those who "will never be forgiven"


not for the ignorant, who "forgive them for they know not what they do".


Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

1Jn 2:23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that confesseth the Son hath the Father also.'

2Ti 2:12  if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us:

Heb 6:4  For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5  and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,

Heb 6:6  and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
 

Quote from: Zeek on October 09, 2009, 03:51:05 PM

and if all go through lake of fire for purification; then personally; my lake of fire (from law to FAITH) wasn't that "horrible of a lot".  As long as I can remember (since 4 years old), I've had faith in Christ, and had my faith tried; but to come to that faith, wasn't that horrible. 

Anyway, my point really being; I don't see how the trial by fire (of our faith) is the LOF, when I am not under LAW. 



any thots?

I agree. It's not the trial of one's faith.  :thumbsup:

I currently understand the LOF this way: take everything that New Jerusalem is not, and whatever you have left is the LOF.

New Jerusalem is:

Galatians 4
21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
  "Be glad, O barren woman,
     who bears no children;
  break forth and cry aloud,
     you who have no labor pains;
  because more are the children of the desolate woman
     than of her who has a husband."

28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[c] 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

---------

Hebrews 12
22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." 27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

------------

Ok, so the heavenly New Jerusalem is the city of the living God, the church of the first born etc. This is something we HAVE come to, an something we will continue to be perfected within. To know what the LOF therefore is, just work back from what you know about New Jerusalem and THAT is the LOF/Gehenna.

The LOF, the "city dump" is OUTSIDE the "city."

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.

I believe the LOF is a "world of iniquity" (not meaning a planet, but a state of being.) That I do believe to be a judgment of God, but in a different way than the church is tried. I believe this is the manner of the judgment of the LOF:

1 Cor 5:5
Hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. In Ecclesiastes we learn that God has given the travail of evil to the sons of man to be humbled thereby. That is how I believe God uses the "world of iniquity" to humble the proud. I don't pretend to know all the symbols in Revelation and how they all piece together, but this is a view of the LOF that I believe matches the NT.

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 04:49:06 AM
what does it mean to be "hurt of the second death", since per Rev 2; some won't be hurt of it; which implies some will be hurt of it??

I think it says that some are not to be hurt of the second death because they aren't even in it anymore. They have crossed the doorway (Jesus Christ) into the "city" and are saved from being "thirsty" for the "water of life."

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2009, 05:02:06 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 04:49:06 AM
what does it mean to be "hurt of the second death", since per Rev 2; some won't be hurt of it; which implies some will be hurt of it??

I think it says that some are not to be hurt of the second death because they aren't even in it anymore. They have crossed the doorway (Jesus Christ) into the "city" and are saved from being "thirsty" for the "water of life."

did they cross into the "heavenly city" via being "hurt of the second death"??

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 05:03:38 AM

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2009, 05:02:06 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 04:49:06 AM
what does it mean to be "hurt of the second death", since per Rev 2; some won't be hurt of it; which implies some will be hurt of it??

I think it says that some are not to be hurt of the second death because they aren't even in it anymore. They have crossed the doorway (Jesus Christ) into the "city" and are saved from being "thirsty" for the "water of life."

did they cross into the "heavenly city" via being "hurt of the second death"??

Do you mean because they were hurt, they took up the brides offer to drink from the water of life? I believe so. It makes sense to me anyway.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2009, 05:05:30 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 05:03:38 AM

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2009, 05:02:06 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 04:49:06 AM
what does it mean to be "hurt of the second death", since per Rev 2; some won't be hurt of it; which implies some will be hurt of it??

I think it says that some are not to be hurt of the second death because they aren't even in it anymore. They have crossed the doorway (Jesus Christ) into the "city" and are saved from being "thirsty" for the "water of life."

did they cross into the "heavenly city" via being "hurt of the second death"??

Do you mean because they were hurt, they took up the brides offer to drink from the water of life? I believe so. It makes sense to me anyway.

so if I understand you, all go through the "wide gait" first ; in order to enter through the narrow?? 

If the second death/gehenna is the "outer court", then how can one be cast into it??  since theoretically; that's where you already are if not an overcomer??

Mat 5:29  And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW7.htm#The Lake Of Fire

Quoteand if all go through lake of fire for purification

Depends on what you mean by "purification." Purification is essentially destruction for the purpose of making pure. But that destruction may come in different forms. To the proud, it's:  "deliver him over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so his spirit may be saved in the day of the lord." Not the kind of purification I want. Jesus warned his followers to stay away from Gehenna, to not let it get to the point where the whole body must be defiled there for destruction unto purity.

But to the humble: "for the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to become Godly in this present age" (major paraphrase but hopefully you understand).

So the question is, how do you want to be purified: through grace, or by being handed over to satan?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 10, 2009, 05:10:13 AM


www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW7.htm#The Lake Of Fire

read that several times, but personally am not seeing the article as my truth; which doesn't mean that it's not true.  In the story of the prodigal son, there still is the son that stayed at his Father's side the WHOLE time, who never left and squandered his inheritance.  Who is that son??  

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 05:07:41 AM


so if I understand you, all go through the "wide gait" first ; in order to enter through the narrow?? 

Right. Is anyone born without a carnal mind? My daughter has one, I can attest personally.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2009, 05:11:34 AM

Quoteand if all go through lake of fire for purification

Depends on what you mean by "purification." Purification is essentially destruction for the purpose of making pure. But that destruction may come in different forms. To the proud, it's:  "deliver him over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so his spirit may be saved in the day of the lord." Not the kind of purification I want. Jesus warned his followers to stay away from Gehenna, to not let it get to the point where the whole body must be defiled there for destruction unto purity.

But to the humble: "for the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to become Godly in this present age" (major paraphrase but hopefully you understand).

So the question is, how do you want to be purified: through grace, or by being handed over to satan?

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 05:13:30 AM

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2009, 05:11:34 AM

Quoteand if all go through lake of fire for purification

Depends on what you mean by "purification." Purification is essentially destruction for the purpose of making pure. But that destruction may come in different forms. To the proud, it's:  "deliver him over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so his spirit may be saved in the day of the lord." Not the kind of purification I want. Jesus warned his followers to stay away from Gehenna, to not let it get to the point where the whole body must be defiled there for destruction unto purity.

But to the humble: "for the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to become Godly in this present age" (major paraphrase but hopefully you understand).

So the question is, how do you want to be purified: through grace, or by being handed over to satan?

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Yeah, I gotta throw one of these:    :thumbsup:  in there too.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2009, 05:12:57 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 05:07:41 AM


so if I understand you, all go through the "wide gait" first ; in order to enter through the narrow?? 

Right. Is anyone born without a carnal mind? My daughter has one, I can attest personally.

So is going through the wide gait a process, or a condition in your opinion??

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2009, 05:12:57 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 05:07:41 AM


so if I understand you, all go through the "wide gait" first ; in order to enter through the narrow?? 

Right. Is anyone born without a carnal mind? My daughter has one, I can attest personally.

So do you still have a carnal mind?? 

if so, does that mean you are still in the "outer court"?  still on the wide road?? 

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 05:16:57 AM

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2009, 05:12:57 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 05:07:41 AM


so if I understand you, all go through the "wide gait" first ; in order to enter through the narrow?? 

Right. Is anyone born without a carnal mind? My daughter has one, I can attest personally.

So is going through the wide gait a process, or a condition in your opinion??

I think it is a walk in death throughout our earthly lives before the Lord sets us free. The narrow gate leads to life. I think what Jesus is saying is that being free from abiding in sin in Christ is life. That is a narrow walk (gate).

QuoteSo do you still have a carnal mind??  if so, does that mean you are still in the "outer court"?  still on the wide road?? 

I believe I have sin, in the same way I have flesh, as I know that the Spirit set me free from being in slavery to the flesh. But I also reckon myself dead to sin and alive to Christ, being that I no longer WALK in the flesh (even if I am not perfect).

To me the most difficult thing to understand has always been the fact that we are free from the flesh, yet we still have the flesh. We are free from sin (not abiding in it) and yet we still have sin, in the same way. That is why TEACHING through grace is necessary. If already perfect, we wouldn't need to be taught how to live like the Lord. That shows me that to be in New Jerusalem does not require instant perfection, but is in itself the picture of grace being delivered to those who drink from the Spirit.

Quote from: sparrow on October 10, 2009, 05:15:19 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 05:13:30 AM

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2009, 05:11:34 AM

Quoteand if all go through lake of fire for purification

Depends on what you mean by "purification." Purification is essentially destruction for the purpose of making pure. But that destruction may come in different forms. To the proud, it's:  "deliver him over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so his spirit may be saved in the day of the lord." Not the kind of purification I want. Jesus warned his followers to stay away from Gehenna, to not let it get to the point where the whole body must be defiled there for destruction unto purity.

But to the humble: "for the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to become Godly in this present age" (major paraphrase but hopefully you understand).

So the question is, how do you want to be purified: through grace, or by being handed over to satan?

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Yeah, I gotta throw one of these:    :thumbsup:  in there too.

Thanks. Talking about Revelation can be intimidating which is why I usually steer clear, because I don't want to make claims of things I know nothing about. That is why I am presenting this as just my idea of what the LOF may be representing in relation to the more plain teachings in the epistles. These are just ideas I have about it, not dogmatic about it at all.

    The reference to the thousand years and the first and second resurrection, cross referenced with the verses in Romans 2:5-16; Acts 17:31;John 5:28,29)about the great white throne judgment, and others, such as Jesus' own interpretation of His parables relating to (in His words) "the end of the age"(Matthew 13:39,40;24:3;28:20) cause me to see a historical connection with this portion of Revelation and the age times.
       
    Even as the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven will find its ultimate fulfillment at the end of the age and she will be presented in all her glory in the millennial reign. We know she is now(as Seth points out- in Hebrews 12), but she "comes down out of the heavens"(means manifest on earth) in times of revival and restoration. In any spirit filled local expression of the body united with Christ she is "coming down" even as the members are "seated in the heavenly realms"(Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven).
   
     She will be "fully manifested" when she is presented as a chaste virgin at the Lord's parousia/epiphanea at the end of this age- when "The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ"(has not manifested yet). Most prophetic symbols have "the was", "the is" and the "is to come" aspect. Wheels within wheels. A historical administration suitable to the fulness of times does not exclude the ever present realities of the word pictures any more that the prophecies concerning the Messiah were excluded in the OT by His as yet unfulfilled "manifestation".

     I believe the LOF is symbolic to the extent that it is not a physical flame. It is the pure purging light of our God who is a consuming fire. Everyone on earth is always in the fire in some measure. Those who are "outside the city" grind their teeth as the wood hay and stubble burns, those "inside the city" shine(Mal 3:1-5).
     Yet without really bending the prophetic narratives of Paul and Peter and Jesus I don't see how the historical connection can be dismissed. Prohecy has always been "was, is, is to come." Daniels "golden head" was both a spiritual revelation of the nature of the babylon spirit and an actual historic "manifestation". The toes of clay and iron that would be struck by the "little stone" were also both symbolic and historical.

       As all men are to be "made alive", but, each in his own order(1 Cor 15), there is a historical sequence to that- first Christ, then those who are his at His appearing (the exanastasis; "out-resurrection" Paul desires to "attain to" in Philippians 3:11; 2 Tim 4:8; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 24:29-31) and then comes "the end" (the events that pertain to the order of ressurection and judgment of all the dead who did not participate in the first resurrection)(Rev 20:5,6).

       The progression of events does not exclude the symbolic realities any more than Jesus' actual manifestation, "foreordained from the foundation of the kosmos but "manifest" in these last times for you"(1 Pet 1:20) excludes all the symbolic pictures in the OT and NT concerning that event in the "consummation of the ages"(Heb 9:26)- sent forth in the "fulness of time"(Gal 4:4)

When the time of Israels captivity was finished, 70 years, they were restored to the land as a remnant and the temple was rebuilt and some of the richest "was, is, is to come" prophecies in the word for our time today were uttered during that time.Jeremiahs prophecy(was) was fulfilled, as was Zechariah's (is) and yet the symbols also spoke to us today of the "finishing" of the temple that we are becoming as living stones. The word is eternal, transcending time, but it is given in time and "manifests" in time until death is swallowed by immortality. The work stalled many times before the time came where the temple was "finished" as in "manifested".

When the "day of Pentecost was fully come", the prophecy of Joel was fulfilled, the "promise" to "you and your children and all who are afar off even as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself" was INITIATED- it is yet to be fulfilled.

There is a partial hardening upon earthly Israel "until the fulness of the Gentiles be brought in". This "time of the Gentiles" being fulfilled, is just another of many facets of the administration of the fulness of "times" (kairos- set appointed times). Time(s) is another word like aion and world(one english word used for 6 Greek words). The study of "kairos"( an administration suitable to the fulness of times( Eph 1:10) "chronos" (Gal 4:4 the fulness of time), "geneah"(generations), "pote"(times past-these last times 1 Pet 1:20) and others is an interesting one.

Act 3:19-21  Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,  (20)  and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,[a]  (21)  whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Act 17:26-31  And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times(kairos) before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;  (27)  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:  (28)  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.  (29)  Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.  (30)  And the times(chronos) of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:  (31)  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

The blood of Jesus is the cure to the second death- those who abide in Christ will have nothing to burn- grace is sufficient. The ones whose conscience excuses them on that day when Jesus judges all the dead from all the times(Romans 2) by the secrets of their hearts- will also enter life without going into the second death. The second death is an experience "reserved"(2 Pet 2:4, 3:7; Jude 1;6) for the devil/fallen angels and the beast and false prophet and a certain portion of mankind that did not receive the witness of God that is revealed in nature(Romans 1-Therefore you are without excuse O man) and/or whatever other things such as predatory wickedness, apostasy, evil stewardship that are adversarial to all things being summed up in Christ and God being all in all. The LOF is the means of the second death and also the means of destroying sheol and death. I think it is a mistake to say that all of this is symbolic for fiery trials in this life because we know the wicked often prosper in their wickedness until death, but as the psalmist says, their Day is coming(Psalm 37:13).

Until the last enemy is made void, rendered powerless and reconciled, and until God is all in all- all these things turn on the wheel of time, the ages as spokes connected to "the mystery" of His kind intention He purposed in Him, the reconciling of all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross. Those who are washed in the blood have "now received" the reconciliation.

1Pe 1:3-13  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  (4)  To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,  (5)  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.  (6)  Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:  (7)  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:  (8)  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:  (9)  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.  (10)  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:  (11)  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.  (12)  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.  (13)  Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Quote from: eaglesway on October 10, 2009, 09:43:58 AM
    Even as the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven will find its ultimate fulfillment at the end of the age and she will be presented in all her glory in the millennial reign. We know she is now(as Seth points out- in Hebrews 12), but she "comes down out of the heavens"(means manifest on earth) in times of revival and restoration. In any spirit filled local expression of the body united with Christ she is "coming down" even as the members are "seated in the heavenly realms"(Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven).

You bring up very interesting points. It's interesting that John goes up to a mountain in order to see the descending city of New Jerusalem, the church of the firstborn. Here is how I am seeing that probably close to what you are saying. The mountain is is the high place that God places his little ones on this earth, and the city descends because it shows that it is heavenly coming down to the earth (because of the Holy Spirit). It's like earth and heaven meeting together, on earth as it is in heaven. Heaven is the sky in the translation. The sky is the symbolism of a raised being, way of thinking, way of walking. It's descending from heaven, even while being high "on a mountain" in the earth. It's simultaneously heavenly while being formed also in the earth.

Another very important point is the fact that we have not fully come into the inheritance as the NT epistles clearly say. We have been given this motherly church (city), formed by the Spirit. We wait for the redemption of the purchased possession. So in as much as we have inherited the City, we still have hope, and if we see the end now, we don't have hope. We all see a final perfecting, and that is our hope.

The question is, since we still have sin, does that mean we have one foot in the city and one in the LOF? I believe not. The reason is because even though we are not perfect, we are NOT under Law and fully under Grace. We are not partially under Law because we have sin because Grace, as you said, is sufficient. In that way, I believe the City is sufficient for the humbled, though they may not be perfected. The LOF is NOT for the city dwellers. It's on the outside of Jerusalem, not the inside. And God is still building the City, and continue to perfect it until the end.

I agree with that completely. We have received the "earnest/pledge/down payment" guaranteeing the "purchased possession". What Christ purchased for us we have received within the firstfruits of the Spirit, Christ in us- bringing many sons to glory, transforming us into the image we will bear fully. "We know not yet what we will be but we know that when He appears we will be like Him for we will see Him as He is"(1 Jn). "the revelation of the sons of God, even the redemption of our body"(Ro 8). Now we know in part, then we will "know as we are known".

   As sons having received the adoption, I believe we have no part with the LOF. The fire we are being tried and purged with as sons is the refiners fire as in Mal. 3:1-3 and Paul saying "If any man cleanse Himself from these he will be a vessel fit for the masters use".If we "endure to the end" in the "patience of the saints" the blood will do the work along with the fires of persecution and the fire of trial and sanctification of the Spirit. We endeavor to enter our sonship here through discipleship, no longer as children, kept under tutors, under law(Gal 4) we move through sanctification into the "glorious liberty of the sons of God"-"Behold, it is written in the scroll of me, I come to do Thy will O God"-"Zeal for Your house consumes me".

   I believe their are several manifestations of the fire of God and the lake of fire is a specific one "prepared" for "the devil and his messengers." "Reserved" for those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness"
(Romans 1&2), and for those who have "abandoned their proper abode"(Jude)

The fire that will burn the "wood hay and stubble" of believers who build in a wrong spirit on the foundation(1 Cor 3:10-18) may be a different "manifestation" yet again. The fire is all of God, but perhaps different manifestations for different purposes. Thats how I see the LOF anyway, a specific manifestation for a specific purpose in accomplishing "the gathering together into one in Christ" and the "subjecting of all the adversaries" and the "bowing of every knee" through an administration applied through age times so that God may be all in all. We have received the reconciliation through "bowing the knee and confessing with the tongue". Various and sundry events triggered our repentence, our "change of heart and mind"-all by grace and according to the foreknowledge of God who sees all things from outside of time. When asked, "Then why does He find fault"?(Ro 9), Paul replies, "Who are you?" "What if God prepared the vessels of destruction in order to demonstrate His mercy on the vessels of mercy" (Eph That He might show upon us the riches of His grace in the ages to come). Pharoah was raised up just so. I do not think Paul is saying not to question- I think he is saying again, in another way, what he sums up two chapters later at the end of this discourse on times and purposes and grace and judgment(Ro 16),

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!..... We see through a glass darkly, but we are not through with time and the judgments of God yet. The day has dawned in our hearts because we are "children of the light."
It is still coming as a thief upon many, both now and in the "full noon" to come.

Jud 1:3-6  Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.  (4)  For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.  (5)  Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.  (6)  And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

I just see too many clear references to the appointed time and place where God will deal with the adversaries to believe it is all symbolic of earthly trials, which all men share in common, as the rain that falls on the just and unjust alike. Our inheritance is "reserved in heaven" because we are washed, we are sanctified, we are justified. The sons of disobedience have a different mechanism "reserved" and "prepared." Some mens sins go before them into judgment (obvious sin obviously judged on this side of the veil) some mens sins follow after, reserved "for the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men's hearts through Christ Jesus"(Ro 2:16)

I don't think the adversaries are the generations of ignorant men of whom Paul testifies, "God winks" at their ignorance(Acts 17:30). They are the predatory wicked and hostile of mind when plainly confronted with the truth of God's eternal power and divine nature, resisting His gracious life and light and walking in hatred, lasciviousness and arrogance despite the light of His grace.

when a feild is so overtaken by weeds...fire is used to not only destroy the weed plants ,but to burn the seeds to prevent them
from sprouting and bringing forth after their kind.

  Have any of you ever been to a mill and seen all the dust in the air as the processing takes place? Explosions of fire are
a constant concern. I liken the lake of fire as that.

  seperating wheat from chaff..spirit from dust,sheep from goat
  gold and silver from dross,in all of us individually.

  this is something that only our former and creator can do for us and in us.

   Firstborn of the dead are the first resurrection..they are the
wheat,the sheep the gold and silver,the spirit. the resurrection of the wicked is the same as satan being released from the abyss to go off into eternal destruction...the tare,the dross,
the goat,the dust.

  Now, if we were already dead in our tresspasses..and received the spirit of life[Holy Spirit]and are born from above..but sin in our flesh keeps manifesting in our bodies undergoing this death,
then we are under new heavens and satan has been thrown to our earth,knowing He has a short time...then it is the seed of the serpent in operation in our earth[when we find  we are doing what we do not want to do] And when said seed is
seperated from us and burnt in the lake of fire it shall never be able to bring forth after it's kind again.

  so every human will be born again from above..in the image of Christ as firstborn of the dead..or quickened of the Holy spirit
the first resurrection[in the last days I will pour out my spirit on all flesh]

the secound resurrection is when satan released from the abyss bring forth wickedness in the earth[our flesh] after his kind[surrounding the camp of the Holy city] and fire consumes
this regenerated/resurrected seed in our flesh.

  for those borne of God[from above/spirit] do not practice sin
but there most certainly is something that is NOT of God that is
bringing forth after it's kind in this earth

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: Blessings.....

       While I see these principles, it appears to me from reading the scripture that Peter and Paul also saw them connected to events in history, and were not speaking strictly in figures. The idea that all these things play out in the lives of each individual..... I can see that, yet, the history remains, and time marches on in the purposes of God which are tailored to individuals, to families, to nations and to the times, generations and ages of the entire kosmos. For this reason we needed the ACTUAL death, burial and resurrection of the Lamb and His ACTUAL blood and His actual Spirit filling us. Even as the ACTUAL armies surrounded Jerusalem in Jehoshaphat's day and Hezekiah's day and Josiah's day after the restoration of the nation under the restoration kings, so also the holy city (the temple we are corporately) is being restored (woman clothed with the sun, pregnant with the manchild) and surrounded (dragon sending a flood, deception and persecution) again in the passion play of God's acts in men in time and history that rises towards the second coming, the second earthly manifestation of Jesus Christ. We fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers of darkness, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms. This is not just a figure. The body of Christ is the snake raised upon the stick for all the world to see-

Rom 8:16-19  The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,  (17)  and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.  (18)  For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.  (19)  For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

Grace and peace, John

Quote from: eagleswayAs sons having received the adoption, I believe we have no part with the LOF. The fire we are being tried and purged with as sons is the refiners fire as in Mal. 3:1-3 and Paul saying "If any man cleanse Himself from these he will be a vessel fit for the masters use".If we "endure to the end" in the "patience of the saints" the blood will do the work along with the fires of persecution and the fire of trial and sanctification of the Spirit. We endeavor to enter our sonship here through discipleship, no longer as children, kept under tutors, under law(Gal 4) we move through sanctification into the "glorious liberty of the sons of God"-"Behold, it is written in the scroll of me, I come to do Thy will O God"-"Zeal for Your house consumes me".

   I believe their are several manifestations of the fire of God and the lake of fire is a specific one "prepared" for "the devil and his messengers." "Reserved" for those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness"
(Romans 1&2), and for those who have "abandoned their proper abode"(Jude)

Amen  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Seth on October 11, 2009, 08:35:48 AM

Quote from: eagleswayAs sons having received the adoption, I believe we have no part with the LOF. The fire we are being tried and purged with as sons is the refiners fire as in Mal. 3:1-3 and Paul saying "If any man cleanse Himself from these he will be a vessel fit for the masters use".If we "endure to the end" in the "patience of the saints" the blood will do the work along with the fires of persecution and the fire of trial and sanctification of the Spirit. We endeavor to enter our sonship here through discipleship, no longer as children, kept under tutors, under law(Gal 4) we move through sanctification into the "glorious liberty of the sons of God"-"Behold, it is written in the scroll of me, I come to do Thy will O God"-"Zeal for Your house consumes me".

   I believe their are several manifestations of the fire of God and the lake of fire is a specific one "prepared" for "the devil and his messengers." "Reserved" for those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness"
(Romans 1&2), and for those who have "abandoned their proper abode"(Jude)

Amen  :thumbsup:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Quote from: eaglesway on October 10, 2009, 05:04:32 PM
   As sons having received the adoption, I believe we have no part with the LOF.

but do you believe you were in the LOF prior to "coming to faith", as a child of wrath?? 

I personally don't.  I believe the LOF is the judgment upon the mindset of those who turned the truth of God into a lie.  I believe the LOF is his "wrath" at the day of judgment;

Quite a few here, believe everyone is in LOF prior to faith,  and I assume hurt by it prior to coming to faith in Christ; and then are lifted up out of it and "not hurt by it".   That all must take the wide road to destruction first, in order to enter the narrow path. 


I continue to believe that the Noah story was a similtude of the LOF; and during Noah's trial of his faith (which was before the world was hurt by the "rain/fire"); then (later) the wrath (fire/rain) came and the world went through the "wide gait of destruction", and the "believers" were lifted up/raised up above, and sheltered by the ark (Christ) and pitch (atonement). 

I understand that everyone is in the fire..... I think that it is an overstep of interpretation to say the lake of fire is the  universal fire in all examples where the symbol of fire is used. Light is fire to darkness(1 Cor 3:13). Its not about actual flames. Our God IS a consuming fire, but it is written that the LOF was "prepared" for a specific purpose and time. I take a historical view towards some of the prophetic utterances where multiple references by diverse figures such as Jesus, Peter, Paul and Jude define an age -time connection to fulfillment. Even tho the principle of the Lamb slain is eternal the "manifestation" was "appointed" to the "fulness of times"(fulness for that specific purpose. There are other "fulness of times" for different "manifestations"). THIS IS THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE MYSTERY.The words "appointed" and "reserved" apply to the LOF.

At some point the idea that all these things are symbolic breaks down in the plain language of scripture. The language is so plain in places I wonder if some think their revelation surpasses the speakers of the oracles of God. Why the geneology, if the line is not historical? It is obvious in some places that many years and events are seen in a few verses and symbology is a part of the narrative- that does not invalidate the historic record, it is a method of overview and revealing the core of the event. The event is still historical, in keeping with the mystery of the ages. 

    If Paul says "God winked" at the times of ignorance among the Gentiles, how can they have been in the LOF(metaphorically speaking, winking, and apolumae, are really different)- something Jesus and Paul define as a specific method of remedial chastisement of the wicked who have stood against the "truth"(light that lighteth everyman, law written on heart, divine nature, logos  name above all names, etc.). Romans chapters 1&2 reveal the appointed time and method where God will decide by the secrets of their hearts who will be administered in the LOF.
    The idea that the fire that sons of the evil one endure in this life is sufficient is just not realistic(from a scriptural view, since Jesus explains His own parable about the tares and "the end of the age"), especially for those who are reprobate and predatory and adamantly opposed. That such pure rebellion exists may seem a stretch to some....but not to me, and the scripture supports this view.  A major emphasis in the exhortation to "overcome" is to attain to the first resurrection to avoid the second death. Our rewards are in this age and the ages to come as well.

    As you said, a lot of folks I have take a much stronger stand on symbolic interpretation. I agree with most of the symbolic interpretation I have seen "in principle". What I disagree with is any conclusion that suggests the ages are fulfilled and that none of these events described as time related by our Lord and the apostles are "really" time related. I love the symbols of the scripture and believe they represent eternal truths (realities that transcend time), but many of them are initiated  (as the dawn) in time and fulfilled(full noon) in accordance with the administration of the ages.

     The blood prevents our experiencing the LOF. If we "walk in the Light as He is in the light we have koinonea and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sins".Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed. Forgive one another. Love one another.Bear one another's burdens. Koinonea is the purpose of creation and all that God has done from the beginning to the end. "Oh How good and how pleasant it is when brethren abide together in unity. If we keep abiding  in koinonea, confessing our faults, repenting and receiving forgiveness- the "withering" fire of Jn 15 and 1 Cor 3:13 has nowhere to lite as we "grow in grace through grace".

    And we do experience fire. The baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire, for instance, is not the LOF. It is the fire that consumed Elijah's offering- a demonstration of God's acceptable sacrifice(Romans 12:1-3).The fiery trial of our faith, in my opinion is not the LOF. It is the discipline of sons. The LOF is for those who abused the rights of sonship and stewardship, left their abode, or refused sonship altogether. They died the first death and now they must face the "appointed" day that has already "taken them as a thief". The thief, however is the bailiff who will deliver them to the judge who will sentence them to "jail" until they "pay the last cent"(bow the knee, as all we already have, receiving the reconciliation in the "now"). But some will not yield, so there is some dealing yet to come, defined in human words as the LOF. I make no confident assertions as to its nature- It may be an intense moment of exposure in God's presence, or an age long shaking the bars of the cell as the grace of God pours upon the soul, heaping coals of fire on the head, but I do see a distinction unique to the LOF. For me, to insist that all fire is the same doesn't work with the language of scripture.

I think, Hebrews 2:8-10 communicates well about the duality of eternal prohetic reality and the relationship to time. We still have "untils" to deal with, even as "children of the day".

(Heb 2:8)  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet(past tense). For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him(present tense).


We know from 1 Cor 15:22-28, Eph.1:10 and others- This is being fulfilled through a process connected (and intensely so) with the ages and several kosmos(Noah's, created out of water and destroted by water, our present kosmos reserved for the renewing fire, the kosmos to come). There are also the times, seasons(there is a time and a purpose to every season under heaven) and the generations and boundaries of men(Acts 17:26-31). Paul clealry teaches at Mars Hill that God has set these things in place to cause men to seek Him and find Him.

(1Co 15:22)  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

(1Co 15:23)  But every man in his own order(administration): Christ (past tense)the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.(future tense)

(1Co 15:24)  Then cometh the end(future tense), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God(definition of specific time yet to come), even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(1Co 15:25)  For he must reign(present tense), till he hath put all enemies under his feet(specific definition of age time fulfillment of eternal truth stated in Hebrews 2:8).

(1Co 15:26)  The last enemy(order, fulness of time, fulfilled administration) that shall be destroyed is death.

(1Co 15:27)  For he hath(past tense in time, but also eternal tense, in that it is a finished work "manifesting" through the mechanism of the ages), put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

(1Co 15:28)  And when all things shall be subdued unto him(future tense), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all(final tense  :happyclap:)

Paul uses plain language,defining the relationship between time and eternity "in this present evil age" and it is really not that sublime. Paul writes about time and generation and age related purposes more than anyone and seems to see no conflict between his language when defining temporal aspects and eternal aspects that will unite in "times of fulfillment".

Quote from: eaglesway on October 12, 2009, 08:46:54 PM
The idea that the fire that sons of the evil one endure in this life is sufficient is just not realistic(from a scriptural view, since Jesus explains His own parable about the tares and "the end of the age"), especially for those who are reprobate and predatory and adamantly opposed. That such pure rebellion exists may seem a stretch to some....but not to me, and the scripture supports this view.  A major emphasis in the exhortation to "overcome" is to attain to the first resurrection to avoid the second death. Our rewards are in this age and the ages to come as well.

I think this is an important point to make. I believe that all are in the LOF until they cross the door (Christ) into the city. However, that crossing into the gate, I do not believe occurs simply at resurrection of the wicked, but in the HEALING of the wicked, the purification (ie the response of the unhealed to "drink the water of life").

Thus, while I tend to see the LOF as occurring now, I also see it occurring to come until God is all in all. In Romans 8, we see a description of two types of people that Paul describes, coinciding with an event that he looked forward to (that we all do).

"The Sons of God"
"Creation"

The creation is bound to vanity.
The Sons receive that creation into their glorious liberty.

It is at that reception into glorious liberty that creation crosses the threshold into the city. I agree, that does not happen in this life for all people, and will occur, I believe, in the ages to come.

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 05:12:48 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 10, 2009, 05:10:13 AM


 In the story of the prodigal son, there still is the son that stayed at his Father's side the WHOLE time, who never left and squandered his inheritance.  Who is that son??  

I didn't see that anyone else had responded to this, so I thought I would chime in here on this one.

The son who stayed by the Father's side the whole time, regardless of whom you think he represents, had a pretty bad and self-righteous attitude, and didn't "get it", regarding welcoming the prodigal home. Instead of rejoicing, he complained that the Father showed grace to the prodigal. Not someone I'd want to be identified with, anyway... :winkgrin:

Quote from: Doc on October 13, 2009, 02:01:17 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 05:12:48 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 10, 2009, 05:10:13 AM


 In the story of the prodigal son, there still is the son that stayed at his Father's side the WHOLE time, who never left and squandered his inheritance.  Who is that son??  

I didn't see that anyone else had responded to this, so I thought I would chime in here on this one.

The son who stayed by the Father's side the whole time, regardless of whom you think he represents, had a pretty bad and self-righteous attitude, and didn't "get it", regarding welcoming the prodigal home. Instead of rejoicing, he complained that the Father showed grace to the prodigal. Not someone I'd want to be identified with, anyway... :winkgrin:

Unless, he was being graced by the Father, as he stayed by his side, staying faithful to the end. 

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2009, 05:33:57 AM

Quote from: sparrow on October 10, 2009, 05:15:19 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 10, 2009, 05:13:30 AM

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2009, 05:11:34 AM

Quoteand if all go through lake of fire for purification

Depends on what you mean by "purification." Purification is essentially destruction for the purpose of making pure. But that destruction may come in different forms. To the proud, it's:  "deliver him over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so his spirit may be saved in the day of the lord." Not the kind of purification I want. Jesus warned his followers to stay away from Gehenna, to not let it get to the point where the whole body must be defiled there for destruction unto purity.

But to the humble: "for the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to become Godly in this present age" (major paraphrase but hopefully you understand).

So the question is, how do you want to be purified: through grace, or by being handed over to satan?

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Yeah, I gotta throw one of these:    :thumbsup:  in there too.

Thanks. Talking about Revelation can be intimidating which is why I usually steer clear, because I don't want to make claims of things I know nothing about. That is why I am presenting this as just my idea of what the LOF may be representing in relation to the more plain teachings in the epistles. These are just ideas I have about it, not dogmatic about it at all.

Ummm, would I be wasting my time to throw in some comments concerning the 'Lake of Fire' as discussed in this Post?
Like, is this Thread considered dead an' gone sortta' thing?

Quote from: Doc on October 13, 2009, 02:01:17 AM

I didn't see that anyone else had responded to this, so I thought I would chime in here on this one.

The son who stayed by the Father's side the whole time, regardless of whom you think he represents, had a pretty bad and self-righteous attitude, and didn't "get it", regarding welcoming the prodigal home. Instead of rejoicing, he complained that the Father showed grace to the prodigal. Not someone I'd want to be identified with, anyway... :winkgrin:

Unless, he was being graced by the Father, as he stayed by his side, staying faithful to the end. 





Notice, that the prodigal son "perished"

Luk 15:17  But when he came to himself he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish here with hunger!


but whoever believes on HIM will NEVER perish.


and the one u wouldn't want to be identified with,

the FATHER said this of Him

Luk 15:31  And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

Luk 15:32  It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Quote from: Zeek on October 13, 2009, 02:52:59 AM

Quote from: Doc on October 13, 2009, 02:01:17 AM

I didn't see that anyone else had responded to this, so I thought I would chime in here on this one.

The son who stayed by the Father's side the whole time, regardless of whom you think he represents, had a pretty bad and self-righteous attitude, and didn't "get it", regarding welcoming the prodigal home. Instead of rejoicing, he complained that the Father showed grace to the prodigal. Not someone I'd want to be identified with, anyway... :winkgrin:

Unless, he was being graced by the Father, as he stayed by his side, staying faithful to the end. 





Notice, that the prodigal son "perished"

Luk 15:17  But when he came to himself he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish here with hunger!


but whoever believes on HIM will NEVER perish.


and the one u wouldn't want to be identified with,

the FATHER said this of Him

Luk 15:31  And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

Luk 15:32  It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Sorry,
I must have missed that question about the Prodigal Son.

Perhaps the son who never left, was being shown, through grace that his heart was never above the prodigal son all along. The Prodigal son on the other hand had a passion to go his own way, so found himself with the fruit of it. Both sons were purified, one through admonishment and kindness, and the other through being turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit could live.

Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2009, 03:55:54 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 13, 2009, 02:52:59 AM

Quote from: Doc on October 13, 2009, 02:01:17 AM

I didn't see that anyone else had responded to this, so I thought I would chime in here on this one.

The son who stayed by the Father's side the whole time, regardless of whom you think he represents, had a pretty bad and self-righteous attitude, and didn't "get it", regarding welcoming the prodigal home. Instead of rejoicing, he complained that the Father showed grace to the prodigal. Not someone I'd want to be identified with, anyway... :winkgrin:

Unless, he was being graced by the Father, as he stayed by his side, staying faithful to the end. 





Notice, that the prodigal son "perished"

Luk 15:17  But when he came to himself he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish here with hunger!


but whoever believes on HIM will NEVER perish.


and the one u wouldn't want to be identified with,

the FATHER said this of Him

Luk 15:31  And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

Luk 15:32  It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Sorry,
I must have missed that question about the Prodigal Son.

Perhaps the son who never left, was being shown, through grace that his heart was never above the prodigal son all along. The Prodigal son on the other hand had a passion to go his own way, so found himself with the fruit of it. Both sons were purified, one through admonishment and kindness, and the other through being turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit could live.

YES I agree. 

Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2009, 03:55:54 AM
Sorry,
I must have missed that question about the Prodigal Son.

Perhaps the son who never left, was being shown, through grace that his heart was never above the prodigal son all along. The Prodigal son on the other hand had a passion to go his own way, so found himself with the fruit of it. Both sons were purified, one through admonishment and kindness, and the other through being turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit could live.

Yes!
Totally.

you worded that well, bro.
I'm going to have to save that for future reference.
thanks.

     Just reading through the posts, the son who left "perished", I agree, as in waste, ruin, destruction of the towers and strongholds that led him into bondage. When the prodigal returns, the son who stayed was reproved and instructed and corrected into alignment with the divine nature. The son who left was instructed also into alignment with the divine nature- yes, delivered over to satan to be buffetted until gratitude, brokeness and humility were formed in him, the grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness and pursue life.

    The prodigal left in confidence, arrogant, with a plan, newly rich. He returned poor in spirit and received the rich blessing of restoration to fellowship in his father's love - the greatest reward of all
     
     I find it interesting the Father's bottom line is unity and love, more precious than all his belongings- and he expects his son who stayed to understand that- recognizing the divine nature(if you would BE like your Father in heaven). Thats why there is more joy over one sinner who repents than 99 who need no repentence- not because there is something wrong with the 99- but because the 99 should all be rejoicing too -because the reunion is so precious(if they are not rejoicing maybe they are not righteous).

    However, the prodigal is a son who takes his inheritance and leaves his abode prematurely- (ex. -let patience have its perfect work that you may be complete and entire lacking nothing(james), & humble yourself under the mighty hand of God and in due time He will lift you up(hebrews) & sit at the bottom of the table and be called up, don't go sit at the top and be called down-jesus). I think the parable is also about understanding correction in the household of God(if you find a brother in a fault, those who are spiritually mature restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering your own selves).

    I don't think the prodigal is representative of the ones whose names are not found in the book or the devil and his messengers- but I wouldn't want to be to adamant about it- that is just my impression of the parable. Paul talked about grievous wolves, dogs, evil beasts- Jude talked about wandering stars, clouds with no rain, waves of foam with no water, Cain, Korah, Balaam etc, these are all those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness".
The wheat was gathered into the "barn"at the harvest. The "tares" were separated at the harvest, to be burned. Jesus called this the "end of the age".

Quote from: Seth

Sorry,
I must have missed that question about the Prodigal Son.

Perhaps the son who never left, was being shown, through grace that his heart was never above the prodigal son all along. The Prodigal son on the other hand had a passion to go his own way, so found himself with the fruit of it. Both sons were purified, one through admonishment and kindness, and the other through being turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit could live.

This reminds me or the LOF. The son who left went through the LOF and the one who stayed with the Father was not hurt by it.

CHB

What would be the point of telling someone who isn't even going to go through the lake of fire / second death that they will not be hurt by it?

Noah went through the flood, through he survived (was not hurt?) because he did as he was told and built an ark that he and his family entered into in order to weather the storm.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were "not hurt" by the fire that they were cast into... not because they were not cast into the fire but because of who they WALKED WITH "in" the fire. (But keep in mind that they while they were seen walking LOOSE in the fire, they were cast into the fire BOUND.)

There seems to be a distinction made between "the sons OF GOD" and "the sons OF MEN" and it is "the sons OF MEN" who are "set on fire". (Psa 57:4)

It seems to me that the "separation" that needs to take place between the sheep and the goats, the wheat and the tares (etc) has to do with a dividing between the spirit and the flesh, the inward man (who must increase - being renewed day by day) and the outward man (who must decrease - and perish).

If one died for all THEN WERE ALL DEAD!!

And we know that "the dead know not any thing" (not even that they shall die). So why should we be expecting them to even be aware of "the wrath of God" that abides upon them and the fact that they are "hurt of the second death"?

Obviously (if ALL WERE DEAD) then those who are "alive" HAVE PASSED from death unto life... from everlasting destruction (abiding in death) to life eternal (to know God and Jesus Christ whom he sent)!!

So why would it be such a leap to believe that we ALL go through the lake of fire and those who OVERCOME "are not hurt of the second death" because they do not even know that they went through it ~UNTIL~ they are on the other side of it - and, by then, they are walking with Christ who has brought them THROUGH the fire UNHURT.

If there is a dividing between the flesh and the spirit and "the second man" IS "the Lord from heaven" then what names are and what names are not found in THE LAMB'S book of Life? Could it not be "the old man" whose name is not written in the Lamb's book of life who is cast into the lake of fire? While "the new man" (created IN CHRIST) who has been given A NEW NAME is NOT HURT?

After all, it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened, while THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING (as "the flesh" must be destroyed), right?

Just some of the questions I've begun asking myself.  :coffee2:

As I know that something that also needs to be considered is the fact that it is not until ALL ARE GATHERED / SAVED (OUT OF EGYPT) before God "destroys them that believe not" (casts those without a wedding garment into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth).

Still not sure how all of this "squares" together.... but just get glimpses from time to time of various connections that seem to exist between various portions of scripture. And perhaps this, too, reflect a dividing between the the spirit (clothed with Christ - their wedding garment) and the flesh?

Greetings Chris. Well, I am not sure who you are specifically addressing, I do believe that all people go through the LOF, but I also see that stepping into New Jerusalem is to step out of the LOF and be tried by the fire of grace, not brought low by the fire of iniquity. I do not believe that the LOF is the trying of our faith, but the bringing low of the proud.

And just as there is no mixture of Law and Grace, I also don't believe there is a mixture of New Jerusalem and the LOF. We come out of one to be under the other in order to learn righteousness. We don't subsist under both. That is to be dead entirely.

Quote from: Seth on October 15, 2009, 03:08:56 AM
Greetings Chris. Well, I am not sure who you are specifically addressing, I do believe that all people go through the LOF, but I also see that stepping into New Jerusalem is to step out of the LOF and be tried by the fire of grace, not brought low by the fire of iniquity. I do not believe that the LOF is the trying of our faith, but the bringing low of the proud.

And just as there is no mixture of Law and Grace, I also don't believe there is a mixture of New Jerusalem and the LOF. We come out of one to be under the other in order to learn righteousness. We don't subsist under both. That is to be dead entirely.

HI Seth,

I was not addressing anyone specifically, just the suggestion that believers have not ever and will never go through the LoF; that "the second death" is not something that we all experience.  But I am not suggesting that the LoF has anything to do with the New Jerusalem (except, perhaps, with the path that we must take to "enter in").

Quote from: Chris on October 15, 2009, 02:49:19 PM

Quote from: Seth on October 15, 2009, 03:08:56 AM
Greetings Chris. Well, I am not sure who you are specifically addressing, I do believe that all people go through the LOF, but I also see that stepping into New Jerusalem is to step out of the LOF and be tried by the fire of grace, not brought low by the fire of iniquity. I do not believe that the LOF is the trying of our faith, but the bringing low of the proud.

And just as there is no mixture of Law and Grace, I also don't believe there is a mixture of New Jerusalem and the LOF. We come out of one to be under the other in order to learn righteousness. We don't subsist under both. That is to be dead entirely.

HI Seth,

I was not addressing anyone specifically, just the suggestion that believers have not ever and will never go through the LoF; that "the second death" is not something that we all experience.  But I am not suggesting that the LoF has anything to do with the New Jerusalem (except, perhaps, with the path that we must take to "enter in").

That last part is how I see it. I think we are all born in that "need to enter in" state of slavery to sin. I think some confusion with the LOF is whether or not believers are currently experiencing the LOF as a way to be cleansed of sin, which I don't see to be the truth, rather that New Jerusalem is that way to be cleansed. The LOF is a way to be humbled, which everyone must be, for God gives grace (which delivers us from sin daily) to the humble but resists the proud.

So I think I agree with the notion that everyone goes through the LOF, because Jesus said that those who THIRST for righteous are blessed, and shall be filled. Those who do not have righteousness but WANT it will be filled, and that is what causes them to step out of the LOF and into the NT. Just wanted to clarify.

     This is not in response to anyone.  I just had an interesting thought  the other day while driving my big truck.  My thought was,   if the first death was and is about correction and coming to a knowledge of the truth,   what sense does it make to expect the second death to be any different? Much less worse.
     I  thought this was a helpful comparison to make. 

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 03:10:38 AM
Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

        My point was that the second death  is similar to the first death in that it is also about correction  and ultimately to help people get cleansed from evil.   Not that  the second death process will not be more severe. I don't know if it will be or not. Although,  I know of no scriptures that teach that it will be.

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 03:10:38 AM
Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Zeek, what would be your (or anyone, please) commentary on this passage of scripture?  I was just thinking about this and wondering about it.  Some teach it means if once you're saved but turn again to a willful life of sin, you can no longer be forgiven and will go to hell.  I obviously don't believe that, but it does sure sound like a severe warning.  Specific interpretations anyone?  What do you think the line is that one could cross to find themselves in this condition?  And then what do you think the specific consequences are?  (fullarmor, do you think this is describing the 2nd death, LOF, or something else?)  Thanks, James.

Quote from: jabcat on October 16, 2009, 03:42:58 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 03:10:38 AM
Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Zeek, what would be your (or anyone, please) commentary on this passage of scripture?  I was just thinking about this and wondering about it.  Some teach it means if once you're saved but turn again to a willful life of sin, you can no longer be forgiven and will go to hell.  I obviously don't believe that, but it does sure sound like a severe warning.  Specific interpretations anyone?  What do you think the line is that one could cross to find themselves in this condition?  And then what do you think the specific consequences are?  (fullarmor, do you think this is describing the 2nd death, LOF, or something else?)  Thanks, James.

2Pe 3:3  First, I want to remind you that in the last days there will be scoffers who will laugh at the truth and do every evil thing they desire.

2Pe 3:4  This will be their argument: "Jesus promised to come back, did he? Then where is he? Why, as far back as anyone can remember, everything has remained exactly the same since the world was first created."

2Pe 3:5  They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth up from the water and surrounded it with water.

2Pe 3:6  Then he used the water to destroy the world with a mighty flood.

2Pe 3:7  And God has also commanded that the heavens and the earth will be consumed by fire on the day of judgment, when ungodly people will perish.

2Pe 3:14  And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to live a pure and blameless life. And be at peace with God.

2Pe 3:15  And remember, the Lord is waiting so that people have time to be saved. This is just as our beloved brother Paul wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him--

2Pe 3:16  speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters around to mean something quite different from what he meant, just as they do the other parts of Scripture--and the result is disaster for them.
   
Peters Final Words

2Pe 3:17  I am warning you ahead of time, dear friends, so that you can watch out and not be carried away by the errors of these wicked people. I don't want you to lose your own secure footing.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

2Pe 1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2Pe 1:11  For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


IMO, these scriptures are easily understood in light of a first century fulfillment (preterist).  Between the cross and the return of Christ (wrath of God/destruction of Jerusalem) which occurred 40 years after the cross, just like the 40 year wandering in the wilderness; with only a few to go on to the promised land and Noah 40 days/night (Genesis 7)with only a few to see NEW land.  While there was still the "natural" tabernacle still standing, and sacrifices still being offered at the temple; and the "ishmaels" still persecuting the "Isaacs" (Galatians 3-4); there was the possiblility to turn back to the system "made with hands".  Once having tasted the good things of the Lord, and then to TURN and fall back from grace to law; the "shame" to follow would be much worse (ground to powder).  Thus, Paul, John, Peter, James constant warnings to add to your faith......


Now for those who "spiritualize" this, and see these happenings as only shadows; I'm sure there can be multiple interpretations. 

OK, makes a lot of sense.  I'll ponder your thoughts more, as well as watch for others'. 

Also, your saying this "Thus, Paul, John, Peter, James constant warnings to add to your faith......"  with the 70 AD interpretation, would you more specifically mean their faith?   And then I'd guess those seeing it from a different perspective besides 70 AD, would in fact mean our faith.

Thanks!  James.

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 04:42:16 AM


Now for those who "spiritualize" this, and see these happenings as only shadows; I'm sure there can be multiple interpretations. 

But you don't "spiritualize" this in any way (despite the fact that Christ did not return physically in 70AD? Or do you believe that he did?)?

Quote from: Chris on October 16, 2009, 05:32:02 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 04:42:16 AM


Now for those who "spiritualize" this, and see these happenings as only shadows; I'm sure there can be multiple interpretations. 

But you don't "spiritualize" this in any way (despite the fact that Christ did not return physically in 70AD? Or do you believe that he did?)?

good point.  :); but u left off the second half of the sentence.  "....shadows"

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 03:10:38 AM
Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

So it's best to hide the truth....

Quote from: jabcat on October 16, 2009, 03:42:58 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 03:10:38 AM
Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Zeek, what would be your (or anyone, please) commentary on this passage of scripture?

James,
I think the verses about the unpardoneble sin belong in the above list.
And for those verses are several UR commentaries (on teh main TM site)

Yeah, I thought about that.  This passage sounds so serious to me, I want to know more about it.

Quote from: jabcat on October 16, 2009, 09:26:04 AM
Yeah, I thought about that.  This passage sounds so serious to me, I want to know more about it.

http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/unpardonable.html

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 05:37:59 AM

Quote from: Chris on October 16, 2009, 05:32:02 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 04:42:16 AM


Now for those who "spiritualize" this, and see these happenings as only shadows; I'm sure there can be multiple interpretations. 

But you don't "spiritualize" this in any way (despite the fact that Christ did not return physically in 70AD? Or do you believe that he did?)?

good point.  :); but u left off the second half of the sentence.  "....shadows"

Seemed to me that you were saying that to "spiritualize" the destruction of the the city of Jerusalem in 70AD IS to see it "only as shadows". Is that not what you were saying? If not, then how do you see it and what is your answer to the question?

You see Christ's "second coming" as being "spiritual" because you see this as being fulfilled in 70AD, even though Christ did not come "physically", right? And you see the result of His coming (which was spiritual) as the physical destruction of Jerusalem? Would that be a correct assessment?

What about the fact that the scriptures say:

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Isn't it BELIEVERS who are told to "watch" (look) for His coming and isn't that coming supposed to bring "salvation", not (just) destruction?

Granted things get "destroyed" by "the brightness of His coming", but that is not the whole purpose of His coming is it? Is it not to bring salvation? If so, then how do you see that fulfilled in 70AD through the physical destruction of the city of Jerusalem? What piece of the equation am I missing in connection to 70AD being the fulfillment of Christ's second coming - such that none who have ever lived since then need to be concerned with it because "it already happened"? 

If "the resurrection" is not past then how can Christ's (who IS the resurrection and the Life) "coming" be past? Or are they only "past" since 70AD? And if so, is it useless to continue to continue to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus"?

Personally (at the moment, anyway) I believe that is was all FINISHED at the cross (not in 70AD); but what remains it for us TO KNOW IT and WALK IN IT - TO WAKE from sleep and rise from the dead and WALK IN THE NEWNESS OF THE LIFE that has already been given to us, if we just walk in it (by the grace of God, of course).

It wasn't until I began to see the many connections and comparisons made in scripture between that which "not of this world" (above / the heavens) and that which is "of this world" (beneath / the earth) that I began to feel like I understood what the lake of fire is and where it can be found ('in the earth').

I think that it was this verse in particular that triggered such a study:

Pro 15:24  The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH.

So the question needs to be asked: what do we find "in the heavens" (above) and what do we find "in the earth" (beneath)? and I found the answers quite amazing and enlightening.

Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven ABOVE, and signs in the earth BENEATH; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

This led to other questions, like:

What does God call "a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day"? And where is that found and among whom? And how might this connect to "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name"?

I began to see the contrast being made between "the righteous" and "the wicked" in Pro 11 and was amazed to read that both the righteous and the wicked/sinner are recompensed "in the earth":

Pro 11:31  Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

This is just a taste of all that is held within the scriptures on the subject, but it seems to me to be all about:

John 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

It is about "the sons of God" vs "the sons of men".

It is "the sons of men" who are "set on fire".

Psa 57:4  My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.



Another comparison between "the heavens" and "the earth":

Act 7:49  Heaven is my throne, ... earth is my footstool:

Rev 1:15  And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;

Which relates back to "where" we are recompenses and what God calls "a smoke" in His nose, etc, etc.


If we are to look upon that which IS NOT SEEN (which is eternal/aionios) rather than upon those things which ARE SEEN (which are temporal / shadows of spiritual realities), "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" in order to "rightly divided the word of truth", then it seems to me that there is much more to "the heavens" and "the earth" than what we call "heaven" and "earth" after a carnal truth. So is there also, then, more to "a new heaven and new earth" than to believe that this physical word will one day be destroyed and renewed.

It seems to me that God has already created a new heavens and a new earth and we are now, by the grace of God, to enter into THE THIRD HEAVEN, wherein lies THE TREE OF LIFE.

In order to do that and "depart from hell beneath" we need to have Christ formed in us so that we can "awake from sleep" and "rise from the dead" so that Christ can give us LIFE.

The "dead" and the "living" ARE HERE; the "graves" that we have always needed to be redeemed from are not physical, but "the body of this death" wherein we are held "in sin and death". And part of the process of salvation is for that which is not fit for the kingdom of God (those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life) to be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death (to be buried WITH CHRIST - the second man - through whom comes THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD).

Just my humble opinion of course. As this is how I see it at the moment.  :2c:

Quote from: Chris on October 16, 2009, 05:39:33 PM

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 05:37:59 AM

Quote from: Chris on October 16, 2009, 05:32:02 AM

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 04:42:16 AM


Now for those who "spiritualize" this, and see these happenings as only shadows; I'm sure there can be multiple interpretations. 

But you don't "spiritualize" this in any way (despite the fact that Christ did not return physically in 70AD? Or do you believe that he did?)?

good point.  :); but u left off the second half of the sentence.  "....shadows"

Seemed to me that you were saying that to "spiritualize" the destruction of the the city of Jerusalem in 70AD IS to see it "only as shadows". Is that not what you were saying? If not, then how do you see it and what is your answer to the question?

You see Christ's "second coming" as being "spiritual" because you see this as being fulfilled in 70AD, even though Christ did not come "physically", right? And you see the result of His coming (which was spiritual) as the physical destruction of Jerusalem? Would that be a correct assessment?

What about the fact that the scriptures say:

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Isn't it BELIEVERS who are told to "watch" (look) for His coming and isn't that coming supposed to bring "salvation", not (just) destruction?

Granted things get "destroyed" by "the brightness of His coming", but that is not the whole purpose of His coming is it? Is it not to bring salvation? If so, then how do you see that fulfilled in 70AD through the physical destruction of the city of Jerusalem? What piece of the equation am I missing in connection to 70AD being the fulfillment of Christ's second coming - such that none who have ever lived since then need to be concerned with it because "it already happened"? 

If "the resurrection" is not past then how can Christ's (who IS the resurrection and the Life) "coming" be past? Or are they only "past" since 70AD? And if so, is it useless to continue to continue to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus"?

Personally (at the moment, anyway) I believe that is was all FINISHED at the cross (not in 70AD); but what remains it for us TO KNOW IT and WALK IN IT - TO WAKE from sleep and rise from the dead and WALK IN THE NEWNESS OF THE LIFE that has already been given to us, if we just walk in it (by the grace of God, of course).

Hi Chris,

you have some great questions that i'll try to answer as best as I can, later today or this weekend.  If you really are interested in the "fulfilled" view and not to "shoot down" my "evolving" beliefs; i would encourage you to join the forum I posted earlier.  I truly am "evolving" with all of this. 

Also, this article i find interesting in regards to "fulfilled at the cross or 70 AD"

www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php   (hope works, couldn't get it to open earlier).

 :cloud9: I like what you wrote here Chris........ :thumbsup: you can see this in the pattern of the Tabernacle as well, as the inner court is the second heaven above, and the outer court, where the brazen altar with it's fire is, is therefore as the earth BELOW. Blessings....

Quote from: Chris on October 16, 2009, 06:23:50 PM
If we are to look upon that which IS NOT SEEN (which is eternal/aionios) rather than upon those things which ARE SEEN (which are temporal / shadows of spiritual realities), "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" in order to "rightly divided the word of truth", then it seems to me that there is much more to "the heavens" and "the earth" than what we call "heaven" and "earth" after a carnal truth. So is there also, then, more to "a new heaven and new earth" than to believe that this physical word will one day be destroyed and renewed.

It seems to me that God has already created a new heavens and a new earth and we are now, by the grace of God, to enter into THE THIRD HEAVEN, wherein lies THE TREE OF LIFE.

I believe you are right about the "new heaven and new earth." Here is an article about how "heaven and earth" was a relationship between God and Israel, and as we know, there is a new Israel created through Christ's body and resurrection. That would be a "new heaven and new earth" (ie new relationship between God and Israel. It's worth a read.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm

Laren, my questions are not geared "to shoot down" anything. Is that what your questions are geared to when you question me? I am just trying to understand your position better and also explain mine and why it is different.

If it weren't for people asking questions of me and what I believe and me having to explain myself in light of what the scriptures say and I was not open to correction or open to questioning my own position in light of those questions and my answers (or lack of answers) in light of some "new piece of evidence" placed before me, then I would not be where I am today, which is in a very different place from where I was a few years ago at BT (which you already know).

So I hope that you will answer the questions that I ask you, even as I try to answer the ones that you ask me. :thumbsup:

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 06:30:31 PM
Hi Chris,

you have some great questions that i'll try to answer as best as I can, later today or this weekend.  If you really are interested in the "fulfilled" view and not to "shoot down" my "evolving" beliefs; i would encourage you to join the forum I posted earlier.  I truly am "evolving" with all of this. 

Also, this article i find interesting in regards to "fulfilled at the cross or 70 AD"

www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php   (hope works, couldn't get it to open earlier).

Bummer, I tried to read it but I couldn't get it to open. It's stalling out.

Thanks Cardinal and Seth. I like what you said (and agree). I will check out the article. Thanks.

Quote from: Seth on October 16, 2009, 07:14:05 PM

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 06:30:31 PM
Hi Chris,

you have some great questions that i'll try to answer as best as I can, later today or this weekend.  If you really are interested in the "fulfilled" view and not to "shoot down" my "evolving" beliefs; i would encourage you to join the forum I posted earlier.  I truly am "evolving" with all of this. 

Also, this article i find interesting in regards to "fulfilled at the cross or 70 AD"

www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php   (hope works, couldn't get it to open earlier).

Bummer, I tried to read it but I couldn't get it to open. It's stalling out.

Not opening for me either, but I have to run out anyway so will try again later. Thanks again.

One thing that I started to realize about the law and the prophets being "fulfilled" was something that stopped me from becoming "preterist" in the sense of "all scripture being fulfilled" 2000 years ago. The thing I started to realize can be explained in the shadow of the slain lamb.

We know that the lambs slain by the Israelites of past were symbolic of the man who would be led like a lamb to the slaughter. But does that shadow pertain to Christ the man 2000 years ago, or does it pertain BOTH to him and to those who are IN him as well? I think the latter. I think the Law and the Prophets are being fulfilled not just 2000 years ago, but daily in all who are buried by baptism INTO the death that the slain lambs fortold and were meant to be fulfilled.

This is what Paul means when he said that there is no condemnation for those who walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh, that the "righteousness of the law be fulfilled" in them.  Paul said that the prophets were ministering to us, right? The were talking about better things that we would receive.

What I have come to realize is that the the entire New Testament absolutely REVOLVES around this point": the Promise of Abraham, 'Christ in us' being delivered upon. The NT is about the fulfillment of that ancient promise and the results that fulfillment is to produce in those who walk by it.

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD is not the end of prophecy fulfillment. It actually represents the BEGINNING of fulfillment to occur and keep occurring until we are all perfected. 70AD represents the destruction of our slavery to sin by entrance into a higher and new Jerusalem.

That is where my current opinion about the LOF comes from.

Quote from: Chris on October 16, 2009, 07:13:41 PM
Laren, my questions are not geared "to shoot down" anything. Is that what your questions are geared to when you question me? I am just trying to understand your position better and also explain mine and why it is different.

If it weren't for people asking questions of me and what I believe and me having to explain myself in light of what the scriptures say and I was not open to correction or open to questioning my own position in light of those questions and my answers (or lack of answers) in light of some "new piece of evidence" placed before me, then I would not be where I am today, which is in a very different place from where I was a few years ago at BT (which you already know).

So I hope that you will answer the questions that I ask you, even as I try to answer the ones that you ask me. :thumbsup:

thanks Chrissie,

my questions directed to you are to help me not only understand your belief, but to help me formulate mine.  As I had stated earlier, I don't have a firm belief anymore;  or maybe never did have a solid belief in the first place.  

What I find so amazing is all the different beliefs out there among UR believers; and the "I was quickened with this..... or HE told me this........." yet they are in opposition to what another person believes who was also "told this by HIM".  

I do believe that in the first century, for those in that culture, environment and covenant; that Paul, James etc all knew what was ABOUT to happen.  I see no reason why we aren't in the same situation as them, unless something has happened since then.  And imo it has, a change in covenant has taken place; and like you said; we are all in the process of waking up to our true nature.    

How this all applies to today, is open to much interpretation imo;

I am hesitant to share too much what I believe here at this forum, as in the past; some posters (not you) imo have been sarcastic, personal, and with where I am at in my walk; am not willing to expose myself that much;

or I perceive some to say; if you don't see it all as "spiritual", or don't "speak in tongues", etc., that one is immature in their walk.  Yet i'm not even really sure what "spiritual" means.  Like i've pointed to, i think a literal event can result in spiritual or inner changes.  

blessings.

Quote from: sethBut does that shadow pertain to Christ the man 2000 years ago, or does it pertain BOTH to him and to those who are IN him as well?

Yes.  This is why Adam is the lamb slain from the foundation [disruption] of the world.  (Nobody agrees with me, don't worry).



Matthew 25:40
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Quote from: Molly on October 16, 2009, 07:33:38 PM

Quote from: sethBut does that shadow pertain to Christ the man 2000 years ago, or does it pertain BOTH to him and to those who are IN him as well?

Yes.  This is why Adam is the lamb slain from the foundation [disruption] of the world.  (Nobody agrees with me, don't worry).



Matthew 25:40
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

I agree with you, at least in how I understand Adam...which may be different from you. Nevertheless I agree with the statement. I see Adam as much of a type and shadow of Christ as Israel, the lambs, Adam, the promised land, the water from the rock, the staff, the tabernacle etc etc etc.

http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php

now working for me.

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 07:56:04 PM
http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php

now working for me.

worked good for me too Zeek  :icon_flower:
  and I love how well  you and Chrissie are flowing and others adding as well 
  I already know some of this  stuff , but the'' connections'' are becoming clearer  Praise God !

and I do feel Blessed to be here  right now

  love to all   :HeartThrob: rose

Quote from: Seth on October 16, 2009, 07:27:25 PM
One thing that I started to realize about the law and the prophets being "fulfilled" was something that stopped me from becoming "preterist" in the sense of "all scripture being fulfilled" 2000 years ago. The thing I started to realize can be explained in the shadow of the slain lamb.

We know that the lambs slain by the Israelites of past were symbolic of the man who would be led like a lamb to the slaughter. But does that shadow pertain to Christ the man 2000 years ago, or does it pertain BOTH to him and to those who are IN him as well? I think the latter. I think the Law and the Prophets are being fulfilled not just 2000 years ago, but daily in all who are buried by baptism INTO the death that the slain lambs fortold and were meant to be fulfilled.

Hey Seth,

I agree as well that it includes us in him as well as he himself. My question to you is, do you see this scripturally as something that takes place over time, or as something that occurred when Jesus died on the cross? In other words, were we in him being buried by baptism into his death when he was, or is it something you see continuing on a day to day basis as each comes to faith in him, that at THAT time they are buried by baptism into his death only then?

Ron

Quote from: gregoryfl on October 16, 2009, 08:15:56 PM

Quote from: Seth on October 16, 2009, 07:27:25 PM
One thing that I started to realize about the law and the prophets being "fulfilled" was something that stopped me from becoming "preterist" in the sense of "all scripture being fulfilled" 2000 years ago. The thing I started to realize can be explained in the shadow of the slain lamb.

We know that the lambs slain by the Israelites of past were symbolic of the man who would be led like a lamb to the slaughter. But does that shadow pertain to Christ the man 2000 years ago, or does it pertain BOTH to him and to those who are IN him as well? I think the latter. I think the Law and the Prophets are being fulfilled not just 2000 years ago, but daily in all who are buried by baptism INTO the death that the slain lambs fortold and were meant to be fulfilled.

Hey Seth,

I agree as well that it includes us in him as well as he himself. My question to you is, do you see this scripturally as something that takes place over time, or as something that occurred when Jesus died on the cross? In other words, were we in him being buried by baptism into his death when he was, or is it something you see continuing on a day to day basis as each comes to faith in him, that at THAT time they are buried by baptism into his death only then?

Ron

I believe it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs upon belief in the truth and humilty (as I know God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud). That grace is intended to "turn away ungodliness" in us in our walk, as it will be when all Israel is saved. The reception of the Holy Spirit occurred not upon Christ's death but according to his resurrected Life, which is what happened on Pentacost.

The big question here, as I am seeing so far from the Presence.tv article is whether or not sin is taken away positionally, or through the act of walking according to the Spirit. I believe it is the latter. That is why there is still ungodliness to turn away in the world and that is why Paul connects the "turning away of ungodliness" with the salvation of all Israel.

I think a misstep is made when we think that prophecy concerns the end of the Old Covenent, and we stop there. The end of the Old Covenant is incidental, being part but not the full point of prophecy. The Promise of the Holy Spirit, and the giving of that gift to the Gentiles and a remnant of Jews is the point of OT prophecy, and the formation of the New Jerusalem (the Bride and Body) due to that Spirit.

That is why Paul says that "he that is dead is justified of sin" in relation to the "baptism into the death of Christ" and "walking in newness of life."

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 07:56:04 PM
http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php

now working for me.

Hi Zeek,
Having read the article, I saw this which seems to be at the crux of the argument:

"The dead" in 1 Corinthians 15:12 refers to Israel under the Law.  Likewise, "the dead" in Romans 11:15 refers to Israel under the Law.  Therefore, showing the consequences of the Gentiles' denial of Israel's resurrection, Paul follows the same logic in 1Corinthians 15 as he does in Romans 11—you Gentiles do not bear the root, but the root bears you. Christ came to fulfill Israel's promises, but if there is no resurrection of the dead (Israel), then Christ (Israel's covenant representative) is not risen, and if Christ is not risen, you (Gentiles) are still in your sins (cf. verses 1Cor. 15:12-17)."

I think the Scripture is pretty clear that, apart from the issue of mortality, "the dead" are those who walk in sin, right? And the Law was made to reveal a condition of slavery to sin to the Law followers. So the "dead being raised" would not refer to Israel, but to ANYONE who walks in newness of life apart from death in sin.

Romans 6:1-9 aptly describes the resurrection of the dead in likeness, which I do not see as a statement of positional resurrection of Israel according to the flesh. Furthermore, a ressurection to life is inextricably linked to "walking in newness of life" which cannot be said for both Jews and Gentiles according to the flesh. Therefore, the idea that all Israel has already been saved from sin does not appear accurate, both Scripturally and according to common sense.

What is the wages of sin. DEATH. Therefore if people are still sinning, what are they earning? DEATH. Therefore if people are still in a state of slavery to sin, then they are not raised from the dead, meaning that both the "fullness of the Gentiles" and the subsequent "all Israel shall be saved" is yet to come until the end when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death."

Here is another issue I have:

Here is the basic problem. The eschatology found in the New Testament emerges from the Old Testament. The setting of its fulfillment is the closing period (the last days) of fleshly (Old Covenant) Israel.  One could rightly say that the New Testament has no eschatology of its own because eschatology pertains to the end of the Old Covenant, not to the end of the New.

I think it is a mistake to to say that "The eschatology found in the New Testament emerges from the Old Testament. the setting of its fullfillment is the closing period of the fleshy Israel." That is where I think Preterism stumbles. The reason is what I stated before. The Law and the Prophets do not concern themselves with ONLY with the closing of the OLD but with the BEGINNING of the NEW. The closing down of the old system is not the main point of prophecy, it is only part of prophecy. The main point of prophecy is the creation of the church through the promises to Abraham delivered to believers: The Promise of The Spirit. Therefore, the Law and the Prophets is still being fulfilled in Christ and will continue as that promise is continually delivered to anyone who believes.

I have an alternate view of the author's interpretation of Hosea if you are interested, which is based on the fact that (paraphrase) "he is not a jew according to circumcision of the flesh but of the heart by the Spirit."

http://mercifultruth.com/links-promisedland.htm

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 07:56:04 PM
http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php

now working for me.

Interesting! Some things I agree with and others I don't and still others that I am not sure about so would like to re-read and look up the additional references. I'd also like to check out some of their other articles as I am still not sure I understand the 70AD position and I really would like to understand it better. Thanks for the link.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Seth on October 16, 2009, 07:09:07 PM

Quote from: Chris on October 16, 2009, 06:23:50 PM
If we are to look upon that which IS NOT SEEN (which is eternal/aionios) rather than upon those things which ARE SEEN (which are temporal / shadows of spiritual realities), "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" in order to "rightly divided the word of truth", then it seems to me that there is much more to "the heavens" and "the earth" than what we call "heaven" and "earth" after a carnal truth. So is there also, then, more to "a new heaven and new earth" than to believe that this physical word will one day be destroyed and renewed.

It seems to me that God has already created a new heavens and a new earth and we are now, by the grace of God, to enter into THE THIRD HEAVEN, wherein lies THE TREE OF LIFE.

I believe you are right about the "new heaven and new earth." Here is an article about how "heaven and earth" was a relationship between God and Israel, and as we know, there is a new Israel created through Christ's body and resurrection. That would be a "new heaven and new earth" (ie new relationship between God and Israel. It's worth a read.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm

Not finished reading this article (just got started, as a matter of fact, so not that far into it) but noticed this statement that might help me put 70AD into perspective as well:

"...all prophecies relating to Israel fulfilled by 70 A.D."

Have to run out (again) so don't have time to finish the whole thing right now, but will get back to later this evening or tomorrow. Thanks!!

I never made the connection with "Seth" and "mercifultruth" until you posted that link. I think I corresponded with you through your website a couple of times (if that is your website) some time back. I even have a link to it on my MySpace and MyChurch pages.  :thumbsup:

Yup that's me. Greetings.

Quote from: Seth on October 16, 2009, 09:33:55 PM

Quote from: Zeek on October 16, 2009, 07:56:04 PM
http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php

now working for me.

Hi Zeek,
Having read the article, I saw this which seems to be at the crux of the argument:

"The dead" in 1 Corinthians 15:12 refers to Israel under the Law.  Likewise, "the dead" in Romans 11:15 refers to Israel under the Law.  Therefore, showing the consequences of the Gentiles' denial of Israel's resurrection, Paul follows the same logic in 1Corinthians 15 as he does in Romans 11—you Gentiles do not bear the root, but the root bears you. Christ came to fulfill Israel's promises, but if there is no resurrection of the dead (Israel), then Christ (Israel's covenant representative) is not risen, and if Christ is not risen, you (Gentiles) are still in your sins (cf. verses 1Cor. 15:12-17)."

I think the Scripture is pretty clear that, apart from the issue of mortality, "the dead" are those who walk in sin, right? And the Law was made to reveal a condition of slavery to sin to the Law followers. So the "dead being raised" would not refer to Israel, but to ANYONE who walks in newness of life apart from death in sin.

Romans 6:1-9 aptly describes the resurrection of the dead in likeness, which I do not see as a statement of positional resurrection of Israel according to the flesh. Furthermore, a ressurection to life is inextricably linked to "walking in newness of life" which cannot be said for both Jews and Gentiles according to the flesh. Therefore, the idea that all Israel has already been saved from sin does not appear accurate, both Scripturally and according to common sense.

What is the wages of sin. DEATH. Therefore if people are still sinning, what are they earning? DEATH. Therefore if people are still in a state of slavery to sin, then they are not raised from the dead, meaning that both the "fullness of the Gentiles" and the subsequent "all Israel shall be saved" is yet to come until the end when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death."

Here is another issue I have:

Here is the basic problem. The eschatology found in the New Testament emerges from the Old Testament. The setting of its fulfillment is the closing period (the last days) of fleshly (Old Covenant) Israel.  One could rightly say that the New Testament has no eschatology of its own because eschatology pertains to the end of the Old Covenant, not to the end of the New.

I think it is a mistake to to say that "The eschatology found in the New Testament emerges from the Old Testament. the setting of its fullfillment is the closing period of the fleshy Israel." That is where I think Preterism stumbles. The reason is what I stated before. The Law and the Prophets do not concern themselves with ONLY with the closing of the OLD but with the BEGINNING of the NEW. The closing down of the old system is not the main point of prophecy, it is only part of prophecy. The main point of prophecy is the creation of the church through the promises to Abraham delivered to believers: The Promise of The Spirit. Therefore, the Law and the Prophets is still being fulfilled in Christ and will continue as that promise is continually delivered to anyone who believes.

I have an alternate view of the author's interpretation of Hosea if you are interested, which is based on the fact that (paraphrase) "he is not a jew according to circumcision of the flesh but of the heart by the Spirit."

http://mercifultruth.com/links-promisedland.htm

Hey Seth!  :hithere:

I have this view, and I'm not sure if it's accurate, but it's a mixture of Preterism and ... something else. xD Basically, it's an option that makes a lot of sense to me. I view Preterism as a highly likely scenario, including the belief that Christ returned spiritually in 70 AD. This describes those being made alive in in 1 Cor. 15 at his come, that are his. But then, it goes onto say, "then comes the end" when Christ should be putting all enemies under his feet and destroying death and becoming "all in all". I hold it as extremely reasonable to say that while much of prophesy has already been fulfilled, God is still filling Himself through mankind (in this life or the next) to be all in all. All people are "saved". But only in the sense that their assurance has already been made, in Christ, and so when somebody accepts Christ they are "saved" in that they realize their salvation (in their being saved, or loosed from their isns). This isn't to say that we're all perfect yet, including those that believe they are saved. I mean, we still seem to be in sin, so I could easily see Christ still yet to do work in us. But the one thing that seems very real to me, is the idea that no matter who we are, whether believer or unbeliever, we will all completely come into the fullness of life in Christ, after we physically die and are raised in spirit. Now... this last part, I base mostly on NDEs, but I don't see any reason why they couldn't be real, nor that it should disagree with Christ destroying death and being all in all. I largely see humanity's sin linked with our physical nature, and so, a spiritual resurrection from the dead seems to be the most logical way for Christ to vivify us and make us alive in Him. In being raised alive spiritually, in Christ, we become perfect and complete in Him (something which wasn't formerly possible before he rose from the dead).

Anyway... just thought I'd share that/those thoughts. Hopefully they make some sort of sense. lol

While perusing, I ran across this post on the 2nd death and LoF that I really liked.  It made about as much or more sense to me than any other explanations I've read.  You know how something just suddenly becomes life?

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3721.msg42923#msg42923

Quote from: Tim B on October 17, 2009, 05:22:11 AM
But the one thing that seems very real to me, is the idea that no matter who we are, whether believer or unbeliever, we will all completely come into the fullness of life in Christ, after we physically die and are raised in spirit.

It is a proven fact, that all human beings will eventually experience this phenomenon called death.
This flesh profits nothing, in and of, itself. Thus, at what point does the soul/body come alive?

If the Spirit quickens; giving life, is it on the third-day, after death?

QuoteI largely see humanity's sin linked with our physical nature, and so, a spiritual resurrection from the dead seems to be the most logical way for Christ to vivify us and make us alive in Him. In being raised alive spiritually, in Christ, we become perfect and complete in Him (something which wasn't formerly possible before he rose from the dead).

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (that of the flesh, itself), rather, having the faith of Christ toward God and the Resurrection.  :gthumbsup: 

The whole of humanity will comprehend the significance of the Resurrection, in the day of their judgment.
Which is now, in this life or later; upon death.

"All will come to the knowledge of the truth, each in their own era."

peacemaker

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: PM

Quote from: Tim B on October 17, 2009, 05:22:11 AM
I have this view, and I'm not sure if it's accurate, but it's a mixture of Preterism and ... something else. xD Basically, it's an option that makes a lot of sense to me. I view Preterism as a highly likely scenario, including the belief that Christ returned spiritually in 70 AD. This describes those being made alive in in 1 Cor. 15 at his come, that are his. But then, it goes onto say, "then comes the end" when Christ should be putting all enemies under his feet and destroying death and becoming "all in all". I hold it as extremely reasonable to say that while much of prophesy has already been fulfilled, God is still filling Himself through mankind (in this life or the next) to be all in all.

I don't discount the importance of 70AD, I just think it is often given more importance as a physical act, and as it being the end point of the prophecies among preterists. For reasons described, I still believe Christ is fulfilling the prophets and his prophecy of return, daily.

QuoteAll people are "saved". But only in the sense that their assurance has already been made, in Christ, and so when somebody accepts Christ they are "saved" in that they realize their salvation (in their being saved, or loosed from their isns).

I am glad you clarify that, because I agree with what you are saying pertaining to the idea that all are saved IN THE SENSE that it is a gift that they will be. It's sort of like how all things are submitted to Christ, but we don't yet see that manifested yet, via Hebrews 2.

QuoteThis isn't to say that we're all perfect yet, including those that believe they are saved. I mean, we still seem to be in sin, so I could easily see Christ still yet to do work in us. But the one thing that seems very real to me, is the idea that no matter who we are, whether believer or unbeliever, we will all completely come into the fullness of life in Christ, after we physically die and are raised in spirit. Now... this last part, I base mostly on NDEs, but I don't see any reason why they couldn't be real, nor that it should disagree with Christ destroying death and being all in all. I largely see humanity's sin linked with our physical nature, and so, a spiritual resurrection from the dead seems to be the most logical way for Christ to vivify us and make us alive in Him. In being raised alive spiritually, in Christ, we become perfect and complete in Him (something which wasn't formerly possible before he rose from the dead).

I pretty much agree, that the process of being delivered from sin begins with being born again, but that born children must then grow, and that is why it is a Gospel of a promise both delivered and hoped for, that we look to our ultimate perfecting and shall recieve it (Romans 8).  :thumbsup:



[/quote]

Quote from: peacemaker on October 18, 2009, 01:32:12 AM

Quote from: Tim B on October 17, 2009, 05:22:11 AM
But the one thing that seems very real to me, is the idea that no matter who we are, whether believer or unbeliever, we will all completely come into the fullness of life in Christ, after we physically die and are raised in spirit.

It is a proven fact, that all human beings will eventually experience this phenomenon called death.
This flesh profits nothing, in and of, itself. Thus, at what point does the soul/body come alive?

If the Spirit quickens; giving life, is it on the third-day, after death?

QuoteI largely see humanity's sin linked with our physical nature, and so, a spiritual resurrection from the dead seems to be the most logical way for Christ to vivify us and make us alive in Him. In being raised alive spiritually, in Christ, we become perfect and complete in Him (something which wasn't formerly possible before he rose from the dead).

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (that of the flesh, itself), rather, having the faith of Christ toward God and the Resurrection.  :gthumbsup: 

The whole of humanity will comprehend the significance of the Resurrection, in the day of their judgment.
Which is now, in this life or later; upon death.

"All will come to the knowledge of the truth, each in their own era."

peacemaker

Thanks for encouraging comments! I just hope all of this is true! :yes:

BTW: is that last quote from scripture?

Quote from: Tim B on October 18, 2009, 08:56:16 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on October 18, 2009, 01:32:12 AM

Quote from: Tim B on October 17, 2009, 05:22:11 AM
But the one thing that seems very real to me, is the idea that no matter who we are, whether believer or unbeliever, we will all completely come into the fullness of life in Christ, after we physically die and are raised in spirit.

It is a proven fact, that all human beings will eventually experience this phenomenon called death.
This flesh profits nothing, in and of, itself. Thus, at what point does the soul/body come alive?

If the Spirit quickens; giving life, is it on the third-day, after death?

QuoteI largely see humanity's sin linked with our physical nature, and so, a spiritual resurrection from the dead seems to be the most logical way for Christ to vivify us and make us alive in Him. In being raised alive spiritually, in Christ, we become perfect and complete in Him (something which wasn't formerly possible before he rose from the dead).

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (that of the flesh, itself), rather, having the faith of Christ toward God and the Resurrection.  :gthumbsup: 

The whole of humanity will comprehend the significance of the Resurrection, in the day of their judgment.
Which is now, in this life or later; upon death.

"All will come to the knowledge of the truth, each in their own era."

Thanks for encouraging comments! I just hope all of this is true! :yes:

BTW: is that last quote from scripture?

Paraphrased, but very real to me. :smile:

Hey, I'm not sure if this belongs in this topic or not, but I have a question. What exactly is Jesus saying here?

Matthew 7:21-23 NASB:

QuoteNot everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

What is he saying? It's been used by a lot of ETers as proof of a never ending hell. Thanks.

Well first of all, where did Jesus either say or imply "never ending" or "hell" in that particular verse? Do we rely on the words, or assumptions about the words?

You're right. It's hard to get over everything I've been taught. I'm working on it. Thanks.

I know how it is. I've been there too.

But eventually, you will be faced with a decision, or you will forever be drifting between, which makes for much wavering and uncertainty.

But until you are ready to decide, you are doing the right thing to verify.

Oh, I've already decided. I AM a universalist. I could never go back to being an ETer. I'm going through Ray Smith's Lake of Fire series right now. I can see so much truth in it. The thing I really waver on, is "Does God, as presented in the Bible, exist or not?", but I'm not here to talk about that.

Ray is a great one to read. I have links to his material on my site because he breaks it down so well and in such great detail. Well, again, I have been where you are at: acceptance, the decision made, yet questions, so many. Give it time. The only way I can explain it is it just takes time to grow into it. Most people never even make it to where you are at right now. It's too painful.

Quote from: Lupac on November 18, 2009, 12:25:04 AMThe thing I really waver on, is "Does God, as presented in the Bible, exist or not?", but I'm not here to talk about that.

I think I've gone through many seasons of that this decade, though thankfully I can't recall those seasons being more than a few hours at a time here and there.  As you're digging through the Bible for all of the parameters and His methodology regarding the Universal Restoration as a consequence of sowing and reaping, then you inevitably go through a cleansing/purging process where the God in the Bible and the one you'd heard of since you were minutes old that's there for people every time but the last time, who in the end is only as faithful as you were, and who you can really count on if He can really count on you starts to come into more Biblical balances.

There are overcomer rewards for diligently clinging to the Promises of His Word and Spirit to the end, but though a dwelling in a walled city not redeemed in the same year can't be reclaimed in Jubilee, there's nothing about the Biblical balance of things that implies that that means no future ages of visitation, that you've permanently lost out on His original intentions, or any kind of nonsense inherent in the ET & Left Behind paradigms of the like.  You're coming into balance on Who in the heck He really is and as a consequence, who in the heck you're really supposed to be, who's you're supposed to be, et. al.

As Paula White has preached on television before "His original intention is His final decision."  Winds up being the loftiness of that Biblical principle and the impossibility of your circumstances that at your core you're more likely disbelieving on how He could ever conform your life to Himself -- not that there's a whole lot of doubt of Him, necessarily, but what the angel asked in Psalm 8 "what is man that Thou art mindful of him?" is what starts to really mess with you when you see His glory, majesty, power, love, wisdom, and intents that'll abide to the ages of ages [and beyond] what they've always been. Doubt's always deceptive on who and what you're specifically doubting. It's a disgusting emotion to have to press through the fog about to the sureness of His original intentions.

willieH: Hi Lupac --  :happygrin:

Glad to hear that you are a decided believer in the Salvation of ALL!  :gimmefive:

Quote from: Lupac on November 18, 2009, 12:25:04 AM
Oh, I've already decided. I AM a universalist. I could never go back to being an ETer. I'm going through Ray Smith's Lake of Fire series right now. I can see so much truth in it.

Though I replied early in this thread, I have not been around to discuss this subject (in which I find GREAT interest). 

I will be reading it through, and either commenting on specific replies or in general... I think L. Ray Smith has some very good things to say in his "Lake of Fire" series... although, might I say that I do not agree with everything he says --  :shakepoint:

I suggest that as you read his commentaries (which are for the most part, very good), keep in mind that like the rest of us, ...Ray doesn't "know it all"  :laughing7:

I'll get back to you on this one... I am sure there have been many good comments in the discussion...  :cloud9:

PS... Hi brother Seth!  :friendstu:

:Peace:

I think you looked into the short sentence I wrote a little too much, as far as who I'm supposed to be. IDK, I want to believe. I guess I have some "perceived" problems with the Bible. I've never had any kind of religious experience to speak of. I've prayed my whole life, but I don't think I've ever really felt Him, other than extreme remorse when I've done something wrong. All my belief in the past has been based on fear, of God and of hell.

I... don't want to do bad things, I want to be moral. But that last paragraph you wrote hit home. I've asked myself that many times, and the best answer I could come up with is "We are made by him, so he wants to save us, the same way we, if we could truly create something, would want to save them." But I don't know what God's long term plan is. I worry sometimes that maybe there isn't a God in the sense that He made this place, then forgot about us to do something else, or something. I don't know. I'm not here to bash the Scripture, but there are so many things I want to know.

Note to willieH: I don't agree with everything L Ray Simtherrd, err, Smith has to say.

willieH: Hi Lupac...  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

I am not completely sure you are addressing me or not... but in part below, you mentioned my name, so...

Quote from: Lupac on November 18, 2009, 01:26:57 AM
I think you looked into the short sentence I wrote a little too much, as far as who I'm supposed to be. IDK, I want to believe.

I did not "look into" anything, brother Lupac...

It was YOU which PLAINLY stated:

Quote from: Lupac on November 18, 2009, 12:25:04 AM
Oh, I've already decided. I AM a universalist. I could never go back to being an ETer.

Are you hereby retracting YOUR OWN words? :dunno:

I merely commended a "DECISION",  which was plainly STATED as MADE by YOU -- in your own words...  :dontknow:  

You would not even "want" to believe, if it wasn't a calling within you...  God does not need you to have a Bible in your hand to "call you" to it -- by creating the desire within YOU to do so...

Quote from: Lupac on November 18, 2009, 01:26:57 AMI guess I have some "perceived" problems with the Bible. I've never had any kind of religious experience to speak of. I've prayed my whole life, but I don't think I've ever really felt Him, other than extreme remorse when I've done something wrong.

Being called to believe the truth --

(1) does not involve a "RELGIOUS experience"
(2) does not involve "feelings"  

But DOES involve remorse [repentence] for wrongdoing...

That you have "percieved problems" with the Bible is a very vague statement... Such as -- Are you saying there are parts of it that you do not accept?  Or that you have a problem accepting these parts, as inspired?  Or that you think its words have been tampered with beyond the control of God to communicate Himself to us?   :wacko2:

Quote from: Lupac on November 18, 2009, 01:26:57 AMAll my belief in the past has been based on fear, of God and of hell.

You continue to be vague and confusing brother, ...you say you have had no "religious experience", yet you are fearful, and lend creedence to God and Hell?  What would you label as "your experience"?  

IMO -- RELIGION does not equate to having SPIRITUAL INSPIRATION or pursuit of truth... It is a practiced ceremonial agenda.  But MOST people (not to include me), note the pursuit of GOD in ones life, as a "religious experience"... Do you see what I mean?

Just so you know, ...I believe it is "RELIGION" and its "experience" which opposes the TRUTH.  :declare:

I can understand a given person being fearful of God... for Christianity (as well as other RELIGIONS) has FALSELY painted that picture of HIM, to the world.  

But as I questioned you previously... Of those who LOVE you, how many of them are you FEARFUL of?  

Is it your perception that -- "FEAR" of a BULLY on a playground -- or "FEAR" of Nuclear threats to your country --- are things proceeding from a foundation of LOVE?

If NOT... then GOD, who IS LOVE ITSELF -- 1 John 4:8 -- cannot be REASONABLY be coupled with such.  :faint:

GOD is a GOD of REASON... and anyone that has had an experience with LOVE, knows that FEAR is not a portion of a LOVING  relationship... if FEAR IS present within the relationship...

Then LOVE in its TRUE SENSE is not that which is being experienced.   :dontknow: -- for PERFECT  [GOD-type] LOVE -- CASTS OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:18 -- GOD is LOVE = LOVE casts OUT FEAR

Quote from: Lupac on November 18, 2009, 01:26:57 AMI... don't want to do bad things, I want to be moral.

John 1:9 -- notes that CHRIST "lights" EVERY man that enters the world.  There is an embedded portion of Him in you which causes such a desire, Lupac.

Quote from: Lupac on November 18, 2009, 01:26:57 AMBut that last paragraph you wrote hit home. I've asked myself that many times, and the best answer I could come up with is "We are made by him, so he wants to save us, the same way we, if we could truly create something, would want to save them." But I don't know what God's long term plan is. I worry sometimes that maybe there isn't a God in the sense that He made this place, then forgot about us to do something else, or something. I don't know. I'm not here to bash the Scripture, but there are so many things I want to know.

Patience is the by-word of FAITH... It is a thing that must WAIT...  It is a thing which must GROW with TIME...  TRUTH comes to the PATIENT and DILIGENT seeker which desires the WHOLE HEART to be utilized in finding it -- Jer 29:14 -- that that WHOLE HEART might be FILLED with the LOVE and WISDOM of YHVH

About God "making something" then leaving it to "do something else":

If you "made something" which is of EXTREME value (such as the "Creation" could be considered to be)... would you just LEAVE it, and no longer bother with it?  This thinking again dear brother, is NOT aligned with REASON.

The "Salvation issue" is NOT -- about Him "making us" -- then "us blowing it" and -- then Him, "having to save us"... :rolleye:

It is about the redemption from a PURPOSED and INTENDED experience in the LIVING display of the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH God -- of GOOD and EVIL, which is BEING GIVEN to, and portrayed BY -- EACH of the Children of YHVH, that in the ENTIRETY of Himself, we would BE exactly as HE IS -- 1 Cor 15:28 -- 1 Cor 12:6

This might go past you, but I will offer it to you anyway...

We are part of the Body of CHRIST... CHRIST -- NEVER CHANGES -- and remains the SAME for EVER -- Heb 13:8 -- So WE are NOT "created" entities, we are EMERGENT entities... from within the Heart of YHVH...

MAN as a physical being is composed of 2 things...

(1) the Earth
(2) the BREATH of GOD.  

HE invests Himself in EACH of us... and we each PHYSICALLY LIVE, only as long as HIS BREATH is within us.  That "portion" of HIS BREATH which IS YOU... is a portion of HIMSELF.

YOU are not your "body" of FLESH... YOU are the portion of the BREATH [Spirit] of YHVH.

WE -- are the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of Good & Evil, as KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH God.

Because He is using His own Son's Body in this portrayal of that KNOWLEDGE (for ALL), within this manifestation, is found the REDEMPTION of that BODY, from the course of TIME which contains EVIL.

Quote from: Lupac on November 18, 2009, 01:26:57 AMNote to willieH: I don't agree with everything L Ray Simtherrd, err, Smith has to say.

I wasn't insinuating that you did, Lupac... I was recommending to you, that as you  research L. Ray's writings -- maintain the fact that L. Ray does not know everything, and therefore his words must remain a commentary, just like any other "man's" words should be (including mine)...

Though I do not agree with all points that L. Ray makes, ...I think that his writings DO deserve a large amount of respect, due to the OBVIOUS degree of research that HE has done... As well as the majority of REASON that accompanies most of his views...

In conclusion bro... Please, try not be AFRAID of the ONE [YHVH and His CHRIST] who LOVES ...YOU... the MOST!  Respect that LOVE, and cherish it, instead.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

Quote
PS... Hi brother Seth!  :friendstu:

:Peace:

Hey bro! Haven't heard from you in a minute. Glad to see you.  :HeartThrob:

Hey willie, thanks for the long reply. I'll try to make myself more clear. When I wrote:

QuoteI think you looked into the short sentence I wrote a little too much, as far as who I'm supposed to be. IDK, I want to believe.

I was addressing martin, in the second paragraph he wrote. I think I misunderstood also. I've never questioned "who I'm supposed to be" like that before. What I do question is "what is true?". That's what I'm searching for.

I wasn't trying to retract my own words, what I meant was "If I believe in the bible (Which I do.) I'm not going to go back to being an ETer."

I should have put some quotation marks around "religious experience". What I meant by that, was, you know how people say they "feel" God wanting them to do this or that. I never could understand a statement like that. Like I said before, the only thing I've "felt" was sorrow for sinning. Which I could say was just my own mind, but I don't think it is. Basically, I've never "felt" God that way other people say they do.

What I meant by "perceived problems" is mostly to do with the OT. It's not that I don't accept it, but more like accepting it as being "not inspired", or "tampered with". Such as, I've had some Jewish people tell me that the Torah was changed around when it was put in it's current form in the Bible, and that not as many sin warranted the death penalty as in the OT in the Bible. Whether or not that's true, I don't know.

For a long time, and I still do to some extent fear God as a "bully", but I would never let myself think like that, thinking I'd go to hell for it.  :bumbrage:

Again, thank you for writing. And that little thing at the end of my last post about L Ray Smith was a play on the name, L Ron Hubbard. Not that Ray Smith is anything like L Ron, his name just looked similar.

willieH: Hi Lupac... :Peace:

Quote from: Lupac on November 19, 2009, 12:14:45 AM
Hey willie, thanks for the long reply. I'll try to make myself more clear. When I wrote:

QuoteI think you looked into the short sentence I wrote a little too much, as far as who I'm supposed to be. IDK, I want to believe.

I was addressing martin, in the second paragraph he wrote. I think I misunderstood also. I've never questioned "who I'm supposed to be" like that before. What I do question is "what is true?". That's what I'm searching for.

Sorry for misunderstanding you new brother!  And concerning my reply to you, you are welcome!  You will find that many of my replies are quite detailed, and will continue to be.   Anyone is welcome to read or not read those details, as God should lead them.

Quote from: Lupac on November 19, 2009, 12:14:45 AMI wasn't trying to retract my own words, what I meant was "If I believe in the bible (Which I do.) I'm not going to go back to being an ETer."

That is good...  :laughing7: however...

You said that you have decided that you ARE a "Universalist", as well... and again -- if this is so... I commend that decision as well... for the Salvation of ALL -- IS -- the Gospel.

Quote from: Lupac on November 19, 2009, 12:14:45 AMI should have put some quotation marks around "religious experience". What I meant by that, was, you know how people say they "feel" God wanting them to do this or that. I never could understand a statement like that. Like I said before, the only thing I've "felt" was sorrow for sinning. Which I could say was just my own mind, but I don't think it is. Basically, I've never "felt" God that way other people say they do.

Sometimes, the word "feeling" is misunderstood.  I believe God has purposely made us as emotional creatures... which includes the affects of those emotions in our observances of ourselves.

When one might say they "feel" God is moving them, it is more a description of their perception of the revealing presence of His LEADING --- rather than an emotional observance...  :dontknow:

Although, there are many, many "believers", which require a "LITERAL feeling"... and this is tied to their CARNAL state of prideful thinking...  We can see this in such as those who "handle poisonous snakes", or those who might credit themselves (and "their ministry") as "healers", or even those who credit themselves for their own Salvation, as they have "accepted CHRIST"...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Lupac on November 19, 2009, 12:14:45 AMWhat I meant by "perceived problems" is mostly to do with the OT. It's not that I don't accept it, but more like accepting it as being "not inspired", or "tampered with". Such as, I've had some Jewish people tell me that the Torah was changed around when it was put in it's current form in the Bible, and that not as many sin warranted the death penalty as in the OT in the Bible. Whether or not that's true, I don't know.

The Jews are a predominantly BLIND people concerning God -- Rom 11:25 -- and the Spiritual observations of the WORD...

So I would not recommend investing too much creedence in ANY of their claims unless they are able to SUBSTANCIATE them. (though you are welcome to disagree with this.)

I have never seen any substanciation that the "Torah" was changed... have you?  If not, then disregard such claims unless the one making such a claim is in a position to prove that his/her claim is more than his/her words...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Lupac on November 19, 2009, 12:14:45 AMFor a long time, and I still do to some extent fear God as a "bully", but I would never let myself think like that, thinking I'd go to hell for it.  :bumbrage:

In childhood, from a child's perspective -- one might tend to look upon the LOVING intentions of a parent, who corrects the child from going out into the street as "BULLYING" them, denying their desire to be free to do what is (1) inobservant (2) uneducated (3) carries dire consequence -- etc...  :dontknow:

That GOD makes demands on us, and brings the consequences of disobedience to our "living doorstep" is exampled in the OT...

Maybe I can give you a quick look from my perspective of OT / NT

Please read 1 Cor 15:46 -- which notes DIVINE order...

The OT is 1st and in DIVINE order, is GOD dealing with MAN, in the NATURAL/TEMPORAL...

The NT is 2nd and in DIVINE order, is GOD dealing with MAN in the SPIRITUAL/ETERNAL...

OLD TESTAMENT --- In the OT -- ADAM, the Son of God --  disobeyed the COMMAND of God and with him came --  the TEMPORAL dealings between God and Man concerning EVIL -- which disobedience is SINFUL and resulted in hardship, punishments, and eventually, death... ALL these things being TEMPORAL, brought sorrow within LIFE, resulting in DEATH, and are TEMPORAL.

NEW TESTAMENT --- In the NT -- CHRIST, the Son of God -- obeyed the COMMAND of God and with Him came -- FORGIVENESS, JUSTIFICATION and FULLFILLMENT and are the on-going ETERNAL premises in God's dealings with man concerning GOOD -- which obedience was SINLESS which resulted in the revelation of His INTENT (to save us) and the FULFILLMENT of that INTENT.  The display of OBEDIENCE to His COMMAND -- brings JOY within LIFE, resulting in LIFE, and is ETERNAL.

This life is a "CLASSROOM" for all, Lupac.  God's KNOWLEDGE is a LIVING thing... therefore:

The OT is God noting in a LIVING WAY, the Negativity of the side of HIS KNOWLEDGE that is EVIL -- us IN SIN which brings DEATH -- intended to be TEMPORARY...

The NT is God noting in a LIVING WAY, the Positivity of the side of HIS KNOWLEDGE that is GOOD -- CHRIST in SINLESSNESS which brings LIFE -- intended to be PERMANENT

Both of these are opposite sides of the SAME KNOWLEDGE... rooted in the SAME TREE...

Quote from: Lupac on November 19, 2009, 12:14:45 AMAgain, thank you for writing. And that little thing at the end of my last post about L Ray Smith was a play on the name, L Ron Hubbard. Not that Ray Smith is anything like L Ron, his name just looked similar.

I see...  :winkgrin:

For anyone unfamiliar, L. Ron Hubbard was the "father" of "scientology", and a science fiction novelist...

...willieH --- (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

willieH: Hi Doug... :hithere:

I have said for quite a while, that CHRIST is the the "alpha AND omega" simulataneously... so if one wishes to gain REVELATION of the END, then one will ALWAYS find clues concerning the "end" -- at the "beginning"... IOW, the book of Revelation has explanations within Genesis, as does the book of Genesis have explanation in the Book of Revelation...  :thumbsup:

Might I preface that JESUS plainly SAID -- John 12:31 -- NOW ...is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD...

The word "NOW" reveals "when" the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD takes place.

Quote from: meefsgirl on October 08, 2009, 01:03:15 AM
If the LOF is here and now, this lifetime, then what of those who die in their sin?

The scriptures say when a man dies he ceases from sin, so how are these people judged after death?

I would like to take a shot at explaining this to Meefsgirl... If we take our SIN to the grave, we take the SHAME of NAKEDNESS to that grave... and when resurrection of men occurs in time (at the Last Day), then shall the SHAME of NAKEDNESS appear as one rises WITHOUT the "covering/clothing" of CHRIST -- Rev 3:18 -- this is exemplified and illustrated by Adam & Eve in the Garden, as they "stood" NAKED before GOD... and IN their SHAME (trying in futility to "cover themselves").

Quote from: Doug on October 08, 2009, 03:00:33 AMThe LOF is called "the second death" in Rev. 21:8, which implies there has to be a resurrection. Jesus said there would be a resurrection of judgment.

Quite correct brother Doug, ...however,

(1) -- this "judgment" is NOT as perceived commonly by the church... CHRIST -- NEVER CHANGES -- Heb 13:8 -- so the manner in which He dealt with "judgment" as is noted in the WORD, shall He also "judge" in the resurrection...  :nod:

The perceptions of HELL and the "flames" of the the Lake of "FIRE" is commonly held as the method God shall use toward our disobediences on earth, however...

The WORD in no place I have found makes any such statement as: ...the wages (payment) for or of SIN is "HELL", nor is there warning to avoid HELL, nor is there any COMMAND to teach such to others. :mnah: 

The WORD in no place I have found makes any such statement as: ....the wages (payment) for or of SIN is "the Lake of FIRE" either, nor is there warning for it, nor is there any COMMAND to teach such to others. :mnah:  As well, there is no notation that says that anyone shall avoid it (LOF/2nd death),

Equating God's "judgment" as being a literal "FIRE-type", was NOT exampled in the approach that CHRIST took to "judgment" within the opportunities presented Him during His ministry here on earth, nor did He exact any such method (FIRE or torment) upon ANY MAN (or woman).

(2) -- The "list" in Rev 21:8 -- which pertains to those who shall enter the LOF and 2nd death -- is UNAVOIDABLE by ANY MAN or WOMAN.  No less than ONE (and if honesty is applied more, or ALL) of these are applicable to ALL MEN -- for ALL MEN are LIARS -- Rom 3:4 -- "every man" leaves out NO MAN.

Quote from: Doug on October 08, 2009, 03:00:33 AMJohn 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

The KJV says "damnation," but I think it actually refers to the judgment. You can check some other translations; the NASB says judgment.

Again Doug, I believe you to be correct.  The word "judgment" might indeed contain a punishment, if no compensation were made for it... however, THAT is not the case.

We REAP what we SOW... NOW... which is WHY there are MYRIAD sorrows in this life...  We SIN, ...we recieve payment (wages) for it, ...NOW -- (during this life)

There is SHAME to be experienced in the resurrection "judgment" --- as is exemplfied by the "woman caught in adultery" --  --  She was exposed for her deed before men, and of course before God, but when "JUDGMENT" came for that misbehavior, NO man was ABLE to accuse her, and when the opportunity was left to HIM, nor did CHRIST accuse her either... 

The REVEALING of CHRIST tells us the procedure, yet most IGNORE it for they (in their vain self-righteousness) SEEK and PROCLAIM others to be "punished" by God, while conveniently, ESCAPING "punishment" themselves!

Participation in SIN exposes SPIRITUAL NAKEDNESS (see Gen 3:7 + Gen 3:8-11) -- as it REVEALS oneself as transgressing the WORD and COMMAND of God, and therefore shall stand, NAKED BEFORE IT.

Rev 3:18 -- I counsel the to buy of ME -- GOLD tried [past tense] in FIRE [this life] that thou mayest be RICH, and WHITE RAIMENT [clothing or covering] that thou mayest be CLOTHED, and that the SHAME OF THY NAKEDNESS do NOT APPEAR, and ANNOINT thine eyes with EYE SALVE [truth] that thou mayest -- SEE

In this verse several things are noted concerning "facing the music", bro

(1)  If one does not BELIEVE in and embrace the GOLD of CHRIST's life [which shall abide the FIRE (in this life) -- 1 Cor 3:12-13 one shall enter the resurrection -- "SPIRITUALLY" POOR

(2)  If one does not "put on CHRIST" via FAITH, then one shall be exposed in ones NAKEDNESS, and suffer His SHAME (not "literal" FIRE)

(3)  If one does not "annoint" ones EYES with this TRUTH (by diligently seeking with the WHOLE HEART -- Jer 29:14), then one shall NOT SEE that truth, and their observations will be about SELFISHNESS.  And NOT in  alignment with the STATED -- WILL of GOD (that SO LOVED THE WORLD) -- that NONE PERISH.

Quote from: Doug on October 08, 2009, 03:00:33 AMIsaiah said there will be a time when knowledge of God fills the earth, as water covers the sea.

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Jeremiah said the word of God is like fire; also Jesus said he came to "send fire on the earth." [Jer. 23:29; Luke 12:49]

Good point... JESUS stated in Luke 12:49 that He had come TO SEND FIRE on the earth, noting subliminally that it had ALREADY been "kindled"...

Also Jeremiah said that GOD's WORD is LIKE a FIRE... (not a literal fire)... for its "FIRE" when beheld, CONSUMES lies and falsehood, by the power of TRUTH.  Just as it is BUSY DOING in ALL which UNCOMPROMISINGLY seek GOD and HIS WORD, in the present.

Quote from: Doug on October 08, 2009, 03:00:33 AMIf John used Isaiah's metaphor of waters of the sea, and combined it with the metaphor of fire, mentioned by Jeremiah and Jesus, he would very likely get the idea of a "lake of fire," which is a metaphor representing the purging and purification that must be connected with the judgment. In Rev. 7:14 John refers to the judgment as "great tribulation." The knowledge of God will probably feel a bit like "fire" to the wicked.

When anyone is EXPOSED in a LIE, is there "tribulation" in that exposure?  Of course there is...

GOD is said to be "good and SEVERE" in Scripture -- Rom 11:22 -- as well as GREAT and TERRIBLE -- Joel 2:31 -- I shall not argue that. 

But what I shall do is state that "CHRISTIANITY", (IMO) erroneously looks past the present (lake of FIRE we are amidst) to FEARFULLY find these things... :rolleye:

FAILING to "annoint" their eyes with "EYESALVE" so that they might SEE -- "looking" forward to and PREACHING to the WORLD, a "FEARED" JUDGMENT to come, where GOD is seen to be SEVERE, and where He is seen to be TERRIBLE...

All the while this is "proposed by them to be -- GOOD NEWS"?  :mshock:  Christianity is one of the most decieved entities in the WORLD, concerning TRUTH. 

Bringing BAD NEWS to the WORLD, about the GOD that -- "SO LOVED IT", and gave His SON FOR IT!

I maintain that His SEVERITY is NOW... What is CANCER?  Or AIDS?  Or flu's which go unimpeded? How about HEART DISEASE? DIABETES? Or the MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS?  What about DRUG ADDICTION?  DIVORCE?  POVERTY?  WORLDWIDE FAMINE?  Are these NOT........... "severe"?  :dontknow: :rolleye:

I maintain He is seen as "TERRIBLE" within such as TSUNAMI's!  HURRICANES!  TORNADO'S!  EARTHQUAKES!  Have you ever experienced any of these?  I HAVE, and can tell you THEY are ALL quite -- TERRIBLE!  The wrath of the NATURAL EARTH, is more FEARFUL and can make one feel TOTALLY INSIGNIFICANT and HELPLESS before it.

Is GOD not within these events?  Does their POWER come from ELSEWHERE?

Those who have ears to hear, shall hear...

Gen 6:7  And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 6:9  These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen 6:12  And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Gen 6:13  And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gen 6:17  And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.


Gen 6:18  But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Gen 7:1  And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Gen 7:4  For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Joh 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Gen 7:23  And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Gen 6:20  Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Gen 6:22  Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.


Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Quote from: Lupac on November 17, 2009, 11:14:59 PM
Hey, I'm not sure if this belongs in this topic or not, but I have a question. What exactly is Jesus saying here?

Matthew 7:21-23 NASB:

QuoteNot everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

What is he saying? It's been used by a lot of ETers as proof of a never ending hell. Thanks.

Lupac,
Did you notice the tense? They are still practicing lawlessness.

willieH: Hi  Zzzzzzzz :eek:... :hithere:

I have always found this interesting, and ATHIESTS LOVE to point out what I note below:

Quote from: Zeek on November 21, 2009, 11:34:33 PM
Gen 6:7  And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 6:9  These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen 6:12  And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Gen 6:13  And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

(1)  God was talking to NOAH, who was PART of "ALL FLESH" which was noted as "corrupted"...

(2)  "ALL FLESH" did NOT END... for NOAH (and his fam were PART of "ALL FLESH", and were also PART of "ALL FLESH" that was stated as CORRUPT), ...survived the "destruction" --  :dontknow:

What I say to ATHIESTS about this type of dialogue -- is that NOAH (part of ALL FLESH) -- did DIE -- Gen 9:29 -- so in this view, the END of ALL FLESH did come before Him (end from beginning), and is thereby resolved within this stated vision of YHVH -- even though NOAH was spared death from the FLOOD, and though he did find GRACE in the eyes of the Lord, ...he STILL ...eventually -- DIED...

Quote from: Zeek on November 21, 2009, 11:34:33 PMGen 6:17  And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Again, there is more to this than meets the eye, for NOAH was a man of FLESH and was NOT destroyed... and EVERY THING that was "in the earth" (and had the "breath of life") did NOT DIE, for many, many pairs of animals were also spared from death in the FLOOD.

Quote from: Zeek on November 21, 2009, 11:34:33 PMGen 6:18  But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Gen 7:1  And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Gen 7:4  For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Again, the word EVERY is out of place in this statement...

Quote from: Zeek on November 21, 2009, 11:34:33 PMGen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Again, "EVERY creeping thing" did NOT Die... NEITHER did ALL FLESH... neither did EVERY MAN, die... :dunno:

Another interesting statement as made by CHRIST, that you have provided:

Quote from: Zeek on November 21, 2009, 11:34:33 PMJoh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

CHRIST could not have meant "NEVER"... for even He Himself, ...DIED... as have ALL that have "believed" upon Him...

Furthermore, Scripture notes -- Heb 9:27 -- it is APPOINTED unto men once to DIE...

So this Scripture disagrees with the English terminology of "NEVER"... (which means -- not at ANY TIME)... 

...The Scripture cannot be BROKEN -- John 10:35

hmmmmmmm  :JCThink:

I percieve that He meant, that their lives were preserved in HIS LIFE... and that even though they had to face the WAGES OF SIN, and their individual  Scriptural "appointment" with DEATH... that those which are IN CHRIST, means that even though they DIE, ...IN HIM -- they LIVE...

I appreciate your perceptions Willie and your overall message of LOVE.  I personally have a different view at this time re: "flesh, and death", but am open to change.  I am thankful for the awareness that no perception is truth, but only points to the unchanging TRUTH.

My perception of what "all flesh" is different from yours; and don't  see "all flesh that dies" as referring to literal death, ie: Gen 9 for Noah, and that literal death being the wages for sin.

what do u think of these verses, and how do they fit in with your ideas:

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Rom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


thanks

z

Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

imo, yes

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

Yes.
"never die" or "never see death" related to the end of the old covenant creature.
That meaning then "become a new creature before you die as an old creature (lake of fire), in the "end of all things".

Also "you shall die in your sins" was the same thing. Not physical death as such (as a definition) but covenant death.

"Sin no more lest a worse thing happen to you" means "follow me so you will not be hurt by the second death" (lake of fire).

It related to legacy and reproach in this life, and not what most of christendom has framed as eternal security.

Barry

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 04:03:51 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

imo, yes

Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 22, 2009, 04:42:54 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

Yes.

Aaaarghhh. So the 50 or so pages of the last 2 months wasn't about not dying in this life but in the LoF.
I guess I can stop praying now  :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 07:06:30 PM

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 04:03:51 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

imo, yes

Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 22, 2009, 04:42:54 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

Yes.

Aaaarghhh. So the 50 or so pages of the last 2 months wasn't about not dying in this life but in the LoF.
I guess I can stop praying now  :laughing7:

My take, is (using Noah story as an example); that Noah "worked out his salvation with fear and trembling" staying obedient during his "trial in the wildereness", staying faithful to the "end", receiving the "end of his faith, the salvation of his soul; spared from the "horrible tempest,

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;


safe within the ark.



what's your take on the lof??

See what Zeek?
I don't know what the question is about.
So I answer both :laughing7:
a] I simply can't understand/agree people possibly will not die in this life.
b] Praying... Well I'm unable to pray.

Dunno if the answers are of any use to you but they are honest answers :sigh:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 07:26:09 PM
See what Zeek?
I don't know what the question is about.
So I answer both :laughing7:
a] I simply can't understand/agree people possibly will not die in this life.
b] Praying... Well I'm unable to pray.

Dunno if the answers are of any use to you but they are honest answers :sigh:

otay

well honesty is a good thing, as "all liars" ......

:)

 :cloud9: Tell me something, anyone. If this is the lake of fire, and all gets consumed that is of darkness, INCLUDING death, the last enemy, of what do we die? Blessings....

Seems our posts got posted almost at the same time. So my previous message was a reply to your previous message...

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 07:18:18 PM
2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

I though 8 persons were saved.
I'm sure there is some significance in calling Noach the eigth person. Persons 1 till 7 of his household were saved too.
I'm sure it links to the days of the week. But exactly how...

Quotewhat's your take on the lof??

18 month ago I didn't even know it existed. I heared of hell. That's about it.
Then I learned hell is just another name for hell. Then I learned hell is grave and LoF is not torture.
But I think your question is not really about what LoF is but when? Right now or after death. I simply don't know. But I'm edging to after death. But I hope it's now but in that case I'm really enjoying LoF. It's not that I can't see anything to be improved in my life but certainly it's a good life.

Zeek, again a honest answer (or a liar.... :laughing7:) Not of much use. I'm just a  :newb:

 :cloud9: Eight = new day, new beginning, overcomers, fruitfulness, eternity (from the figure 8 path), which ties in with the  the pillars, ie. to him that overcometh I will him a pillar in my Father's temple. The fretwork on the pillars ties in with the mercy seat and the crown given to the overcomers.

And the male children (sons) were rubbed with salt (sterilizes and burns like fire), circumcised, and given their name/natures on the 8th day. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on November 22, 2009, 08:04:24 PM
:cloud9: Eight = new day, new beginning, overcomers, fruitfulness, eternity (from the figure 8 path), which ties in with the  the pillars, ie. to him that overcometh I will him a pillar in my Father's temple. The fretwork on the pillars ties in with the mercy seat and the crown given to the overcomers.

And the male children (sons) were rubbed with salt (sterilizes and burns like fire), circumcised, and given their name/natures on the 8th day. Blessings....

:thumbsup:    yes the symbolism is very important sis !   :HeartThrob:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 07:06:30 PM

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 04:03:51 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

imo, yes

Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 22, 2009, 04:42:54 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

Yes.

Aaaarghhh. So the 50 or so pages of the last 2 months wasn't about not dying in this life but in the LoF.
I guess I can stop praying now  :laughing7:

The lake if fire is the catastrophic end of the old covenant in AD 70.
The second death is the end of that legacy and the reproach upon that legacy that is attached to ego driven identity under the precedence of types and figures. [Which is an absence of a historical revelation of God's love without condition. Such a revelation however was played out in history for the ongoing future of humanity.]
The lake of fire (baptism of fire) and the second death are interrelated.

All of this about "this life".
None of this has anything to do with postmortem continuity as Christendom has calculated it.
None of this has anything to do with the spirit returning to God or punishment after death.

It dealt with covenant issues that are expressed in terms of everlasting destruction and eternal life which are expressions of reproach-legacy-inefficacy and perpetual efficacy in this life as pertains to ongoing history (the new age which was the generational expectation of Jesus, the apostles and in all the gospels and Epistles).
The reward for the faithful was the inauguration of the new age making everything new. A blessing to all forever. And a blessing to all who lived and died under the old covenant.

The only law or separation that exists is presently between our ears. There is no "covenant" for separation to stand on. The only accuser is between our ears. The works of the devil are destroyed.
Christ is the last Adam.
We are the benefactors.


Many blessings Barry

Quote from: Cardinal on November 22, 2009, 08:04:24 PM
:cloud9: Eight = new day, new beginning, overcomers, fruitfulness, eternity (from the figure 8 path), which ties in with the  the pillars, ie. to him that overcometh I will him a pillar in my Father's temple. The fretwork on the pillars ties in with the mercy seat and the crown given to the overcomers.

And the male children (sons) were rubbed with salt (sterilizes and burns like fire), circumcised, and given their name/natures on the 8th day. Blessings....

I knew all/most of that. (thats why I thing there are 7 aion and the 8th eon is eternity)
But it doesn't really answer my question. Why was Noach the 8th? Why not just say eigth? All eight people got survived. Not just one of eight...?

Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 22, 2009, 08:53:44 PMThe lake if fire is the catastrophic end of the old covenant in AD 70.

I believe you Barry.
I also believe Willie LoF is now.
I also believe... who says LoF is after death.
I also believe a lot of other variations.
I believe a lot of things except torture.

So that's my answer. I can't argue about things that that are very unclear to me. Once I figured it out be shure the whole world will know! Speaking as a true Calvinist that means only to the elect on this forum :laughing7:

 :cloud9: ROFLOL..........true Calvinist, eh?

And; for my money, I'd say it said Noah was the 8th because He was both a hearer and a doer of the Word, which is what it's going to take to become an overcomer. Blessings....

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 09:07:16 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 22, 2009, 08:04:24 PM
:cloud9: Eight = new day, new beginning, overcomers, fruitfulness, eternity (from the figure 8 path), which ties in with the  the pillars, ie. to him that overcometh I will him a pillar in my Father's temple. The fretwork on the pillars ties in with the mercy seat and the crown given to the overcomers.

And the male children (sons) were rubbed with salt (sterilizes and burns like fire), circumcised, and given their name/natures on the 8th day. Blessings....

I knew all/most of that. (thats why I thing there are 7 aion and the 8th eon is eternity)
But it doesn't really answer my question. Why was Noach the 8th? Why not just say eigth? All eight people got survived. Not just one of eight...?

Bro   you know why
 because Noah means ''rest''

  he was saved by water because the ground/flesh  was cursed
 the Water is symbolice of the Word of God / Jesus Christ
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
the ark of  the covenant
 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:  


2Pe 3:7   But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word  are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


 the rest/ noah  Hbr 4:9 There remains therefore a'' rest ''to the people of God.  

 Noah  example   Peter touches on very well ......

 and than the Fire  cleansing Jesus  promises  to do for His people    that Paul touches on


1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  

 :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 22, 2009, 09:47:26 PM
:cloud9: ROFLOL..........true Calvinist, eh?

That sorta fits with my elect 'joke' :winkgrin:
I might not be a Christian but I can tell you I feel Calvinist are closer to satanism that atheists... (am I allowed to say that?_

QuoteAnd; for my money, I'd say it said Noah was the 8th because He was both a hearer and a doer of the Word, which is what it's going to take to become an overcomer. Blessings....

Why wre the others saved?
Just to please Noach and not because they were worthy in God's eyes?
Ignoring the fact producing offspring would kinda hard for  a lonely Noach :laughing7:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 22, 2009, 09:47:26 PM
:cloud9: ROFLOL..........true Calvinist, eh?

And; for my money, I'd say it said Noah was the 8th because He was both a hearer and a doer of the Word, which is what it's going to take to become an overcomer. Blessings....

:thumbsup: amen to that ..  died in faith  rest in the Lord to do His thing  Hbr 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.   :HeartThrob:

 :cloud9: If I remember right WW, Methuselah was the 8th from Adam as well.........Blessings....

willieH: Hi  Xxxxxxx :eek:... :hithere:

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AM
I appreciate your perceptions Willie and your overall message of LOVE.  I personally have a different view at this time re: "flesh, and death", but am open to change.  I am thankful for the awareness that no perception is truth, but only points to the unchanging TRUTH.

I too have respect to your views bro... None of us "know it all"... I continually [daily] learn from the WORD... It is commendable that you are open to change, ...I too am open to His further leading every day.  If we are "closed", then we have encased ourselves in our pride to a degree that states that God has no more to teach us... How "off the mark" is that?  :laughing7:

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AMMy perception of what "all flesh" is different from yours; and don't  see "all flesh that dies" as referring to literal death, ie: Gen 9 for Noah, and that literal death being the wages for sin.

You note your "perception" to be different than mine, but negate noting it, ...why is that?   :secret:  Are you planning on sharing it?  :prankster:  I look forward to reading it...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AMwhat do u think of these verses, and how do they fit in with your ideas:

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Well... I can only answer this with PAUL's words (which PRECEEDED and PREFACED these) -- who was

(1) in the Spirit of CHRIST as he wrote them and,

(2) quite EMBATTLED by the FLESH in which he resided, when writing them... 

Actually the WHOLE 7th chapter of Romans is applicable to answer your question, but let me zero in here:

Rom 7:22-24 -- For I delight in the law of God after the inward man ...but I see another law in MY MEMBERS, warring against the law of my mind and BRINGING ME into CAPTIVITY to the LAW OF SIN, which is IN MY MEMBERS ...O wretched man that --- I AM --- [an observation of himself, written in present tense] --- who shall deliver ME from the body [in which he STILL resided] of THIS DEATH?

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AMRom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

A question of YOU is in order XEEK!  Do you think that it is YOU mortify the deeds of the Body?

And if you are able to, that YOU shall escape PHYSICAL DEATH?

To answer... it is LIFE that overcomes DEATH... and JESUS noted Himself as -- "the way, the truth, and --- THE LIFE!" -- So in overcoming the deeds of my body... I am a bystander to the POWER of LIFE which is THAT which actually overcomes the workings of DEATH in me (which are "my workings")...

In that process, ...every moment I submit to CHRIST is found IMPERISHABLE for it is founded upon the doings of CHRIST (gold, silver, precious stones), nor me... however, every moment I submit to the doings of SELF (which is what PAUL is noting in Romans 7 and JOHN in 1 John 1:8 -- DEATH is realized in those "doings" (wood, hay, stubble) --  :dontknow:

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AMJoh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Is that it brother X -- I mean, Z :eek:?   :JCThink: 

I believe I just answered you in the statement before, however, since you are "open" here are a few other words: 

The moments one SOWS to the flesh, bring [reap] DEATH to those moments... {they shall PERISH} ...the moments one SOWS to the Spirit, bring [reap] LIFE to those moments... {they shall ABIDE} -- 1 Cor 3:14-15

Rom 1:18 -- [the beginning of this discourse] -- ...the WRATH of God -- IS REVEALED [not "will be"] from heaven against ALL ungodliness, and unrighteousness OF men, who hold the truth [by their SINFUL doings] IN unrighteousness --

Quote from: willieH on November 22, 2009, 11:30:01 PM
willieH: Hi  Xxxxxxx :eek:... :hithere:

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AM
I appreciate your perceptions Willie and your overall message of LOVE.  I personally have a different view at this time re: "flesh, and death", but am open to change.  I am thankful for the awareness that no perception is truth, but only points to the unchanging TRUTH.

I too have respect to your views bro... None of us "know it all"... I continually [daily] learn from the WORD... It is commendable that you are open to change, ...I too am open to His further leading every day.  If we are "closed", then we have encased ourselves in our pride to a degree that states that God has no more to teach us... How "off the mark" is that?  :laughing7:

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AMMy perception of what "all flesh" is different from yours; and don't  see "all flesh that dies" as referring to literal death, ie: Gen 9 for Noah, and that literal death being the wages for sin.

You note your "perception" to be different than mine, but negate noting it, ...why is that?   :secret:  Are you planning on sharing it?  :prankster:  I look forward to reading it...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AMwhat do u think of these verses, and how do they fit in with your ideas:

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Well... I can only answer this with PAUL's words (which PRECEEDED and PREFACED these) -- who was

(1) in the Spirit of CHRIST as he wrote them and,

(2) quite EMBATTLED by the FLESH in which he resided, when writing them... 

Actually the WHOLE 7th chapter of Romans is applicable to answer your question, but let me zero in here:

Rom 7:22-24 -- For I delight in the law of God after the inward man ...but I see another law in MY MEMBERS, warring against the law of my mind and BRINGING ME into CAPTIVITY to the LAW OF SIN, which is IN MY MEMBERS ...O wretched man that --- I AM --- [an observation of himself, written in present tense] --- who shall deliver ME from the body [in which he STILL resided] of THIS DEATH?

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AMRom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

A question of YOU is in order XEEK!  Do you think that it is YOU mortify the deeds of the Body?

And if you are able to, that YOU shall escape PHYSICAL DEATH?

To answer... it is LIFE that overcomes DEATH... and JESUS noted Himself as -- "the way, the truth, and --- THE LIFE!" -- So in overcoming the deeds of my body... I am a bystander to the POWER of LIFE which is THAT which actually overcomes the workings of DEATH in me (which are "my workings")...

In that process, ...every moment I submit to CHRIST is found IMPERISHABLE for it is founded upon the doings of CHRIST (gold, silver, precious stones), nor me... however, every moment I submit to the doings of SELF (which is what PAUL is noting in Romans 7 and JOHN in 1 John 1:8 -- DEATH is realized in those "doings" (wood, hay, stubble) --  :dontknow:

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AMJoh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Is that it brother X -- I mean, Z :eek:?   :JCThink: 

I believe I just answered you in the statement before, however, since you are "open" here are a few other words: 

The moments one SOWS to the flesh, bring [reap] DEATH to those moments... {they shall PERISH} ...the moments one SOWS to the Spirit, bring [reap] LIFE to those moments... {they shall ABIDE} -- 1 Cor 3:14-15

Rom 1:18 -- [the beginning of this discourse] -- ...the WRATH of God -- IS REVEALED [not "will be"] from heaven against ALL ungodliness, and unrighteousness OF men, who hold the truth [by their SINFUL doings] IN unrighteousness --

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

Were the typo's Xxxxx and X purposeful?  or typos by accident?

Quote from: Zeek on November 23, 2009, 12:01:23 AMWere the typo's Xxxxx and X purposeful?  or typos by accident?

Just XillieH's way to say you are Xantastic Zeek  :laughing7:

Quote from: Zeek on November 23, 2009, 12:01:23 AM

Quote from: willieH on November 22, 2009, 11:30:01 PM
willieH: Hi  Xxxxxxx :eek:... :hithere:

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AM
I appreciate your perceptions Willie and your overall message of LOVE.  I personally have a different view at this time re: "flesh, and death", but am open to change.  I am thankful for the awareness that no perception is truth, but only points to the unchanging TRUTH.

I too have respect to your views bro... None of us "know it all"... I continually [daily] learn from the WORD... It is commendable that you are open to change, ...I too am open to His further leading every day.  If we are "closed", then we have encased ourselves in our pride to a degree that states that God has no more to teach us... How "off the mark" is that?  :laughing7:

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AMMy perception of what "all flesh" is different from yours; and don't  see "all flesh that dies" as referring to literal death, ie: Gen 9 for Noah, and that literal death being the wages for sin.

You note your "perception" to be different than mine, but negate noting it, ...why is that?   :secret:  Are you planning on sharing it?  :prankster:  I look forward to reading it...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AMwhat do u think of these verses, and how do they fit in with your ideas:

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Well... I can only answer this with PAUL's words (which PRECEEDED and PREFACED these) -- who was

(1) in the Spirit of CHRIST as he wrote them and,

(2) quite EMBATTLED by the FLESH in which he resided, when writing them... 

Actually the WHOLE 7th chapter of Romans is applicable to answer your question, but let me zero in here:

Rom 7:22-24 -- For I delight in the law of God after the inward man ...but I see another law in MY MEMBERS, warring against the law of my mind and BRINGING ME into CAPTIVITY to the LAW OF SIN, which is IN MY MEMBERS ...O wretched man that --- I AM --- [an observation of himself, written in present tense] --- who shall deliver ME from the body [in which he STILL resided] of THIS DEATH?

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AMRom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

A question of YOU is in order XEEK!  Do you think that it is YOU mortify the deeds of the Body?

And if you are able to, that YOU shall escape PHYSICAL DEATH?

To answer... it is LIFE that overcomes DEATH... and JESUS noted Himself as -- "the way, the truth, and --- THE LIFE!" -- So in overcoming the deeds of my body... I am a bystander to the POWER of LIFE which is THAT which actually overcomes the workings of DEATH in me (which are "my workings")...

In that process, ...every moment I submit to CHRIST is found IMPERISHABLE for it is founded upon the doings of CHRIST (gold, silver, precious stones), nor me... however, every moment I submit to the doings of SELF (which is what PAUL is noting in Romans 7 and JOHN in 1 John 1:8 -- DEATH is realized in those "doings" (wood, hay, stubble) --  :dontknow:

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 08:25:50 AMJoh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Is that it brother X -- I mean, Z :eek:?   :JCThink: 

I believe I just answered you in the statement before, however, since you are "open" here are a few other words: 

The moments one SOWS to the flesh, bring [reap] DEATH to those moments... {they shall PERISH} ...the moments one SOWS to the Spirit, bring [reap] LIFE to those moments... {they shall ABIDE} -- 1 Cor 3:14-15

Rom 1:18 -- [the beginning of this discourse] -- ...the WRATH of God -- IS REVEALED [not "will be"] from heaven against ALL ungodliness, and unrighteousness OF men, who hold the truth [by their SINFUL doings] IN unrighteousness --

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

Were the typo's Xxxxx and X purposeful?  or typos by accident?

By now you should know...

"twas jus fer funsies brud... don't not be takin' no offences!   :friendstu:

[Just thought the pronunciation of X is the same as Z when it is the 1st letter]...

:Peace:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 23, 2009, 12:11:42 AM

Quote from: Zeek on November 23, 2009, 12:01:23 AMWere the typo's Xxxxx and X purposeful?  or typos by accident?

Just XillieH's way to say you are Xantastic Zeek  :laughing7:

Yeah! :nod:

What Xhite Xings just said!  :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings
But it doesn't really answer my question. Why was Noach the 8th? Why not just say eigth? All eight people got survived. Not just one of eight...?

I think it was because Noah was the new beginning of a new era. 8 does mean "new beginning" as Cardinal said.

CHB

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 07:18:18 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 07:06:30 PM

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 04:03:51 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

imo, yes

Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 22, 2009, 04:42:54 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

Yes.

Aaaarghhh. So the 50 or so pages of the last 2 months wasn't about not dying in this life but in the LoF.
I guess I can stop praying now  :laughing7:

My take, is (using Noah story as an example); that Noah "worked out his salvation with fear and trembling" staying obedient during his "trial in the wildereness", staying faithful to the "end", receiving the "end of his faith, the salvation of his soul; spared from the "horrible tempest,

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;


safe within the ark.



what's your take on the lof??

Hi Zeek,
That's my take as well.  I think the Lake of Fire will engulf the globe literally
in the same way that the flood literally covered the earth.   

"As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the Son of man,
They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage,
until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all (Luke 17:26-27)."


The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites.
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?  Isaiah 33:14

Anne

willieH: Hi Laren... :hithere:

Quote from: Laren on November 22, 2009, 07:18:18 PM
My take, is (using Noah story as an example); that Noah "worked out his salvation with fear and trembling" staying obedient during his "trial in the wildereness", staying faithful to the "end", receiving the "end of his faith, the salvation of his soul; spared from the "horrible tempest,

Noah did not receive the Salvation of his SOUL... His Earthly and temporal life was spared [DEATH] from the JUDGMENT of God that came against the WORLD...  

By FAITH Noah, as Abraham -- as Moses -- As Sara -- as Abel -- as Enoch -- as Jacob and the rest of the "gang", did NOT RECIEVE the promises -- Heb 11:13 -- however AWAIT them as do ALL await them... Heb 11:39-40

Noah was "spared" DEATH via the FLOOD, but was NOT "spared" DEATH... for eventually, he DIED -- Gen 9:29 -- :nod:

Quote from: Laren on November 22, 2009, 07:18:18 PMPsa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Who is "wicked" Laren?  Are not ALL MEN, mired in the "mud of wickedness"? -- Jer 17:9 -- Rom 11:32

Quote from: Laren on November 22, 2009, 07:18:18 PMGen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Noah, entered into the Kingdom of God -- which is entering into "FAITH", bro... for He heard the WORD, BELIEVED It, and heeded It... trusting that It was TRUE... and found that It certainly IS TRUE... GRACE is therefore found in trusting the WORD... which IS TRUTH, and whatever It SAYS, ...SHALL come to pass...

Quote from: Laren on November 22, 2009, 07:18:18 PM2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

safe within the ark.

Noah was "safe" from the JUDGMENT brought against those who do NOT HEAR that WORD... thereby, ...Noah was "clothed" in CHRIST... for when one invests oneself in the WORD, the CLOTHING of the WORD, defers ones NAKEDNESS and accompanying SHAME -- Rev 3:18

Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 22, 2009, 08:53:44 PM

The lake if fire is the catastrophic end of the old covenant in AD 70.

This is the typical response of the hyper preterists, who deny the future resurrection of the saints.

Brian Simmons wrote:

What Hyper-Preterism does to the Christian doctrine of the resurrection is simply deplorable.  H.P.'s cannot deny that death passed upon all men through Adam's transgression  (Romans 5: 12).  But because they see that it is God's ultimate purpose to abolish death (which didn't happen in A.D. 70), they change the nature of Adamic death to mean a mere "separation from God."  According to them, it was this spiritual separation that was cast into the lake of fire in A.D. 70!

   The Hyper-Preterist theory means, of course, that when Christ died on the cross, He did not pay the penalty for Adam's transgression.  Some Hyper-Preterists are so bold as to say that the cross was merely a "sign."  That is, the shedding of Christ's blood on Calvary has no objective efficacy in the work of savlation.  It was not Christ's physical death that provided atonement, but His spiritual separation from God.  A more heretical concept we can scarcely imagine.

http://antipreterist.wordpress.com/2009/09/15/hyper-preterisms-resurrection-error/ (http://antipreterist.wordpress.com/2009/09/15/hyper-preterisms-resurrection-error/)

Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 22, 2009, 08:53:44 PM
The second death is the end of that legacy and the reproach upon that legacy that is attached to ego driven identity under the precedence of types and figures. [Which is an absence of a historical revelation of God's love without condition. Such a revelation however was played out in history for the ongoing future of humanity.]

The lake of fire (baptism of fire) and the second death are interrelated.

All of this about "this life".
None of this has anything to do with postmortem continuity as Christendom has calculated it.
None of this has anything to do with the spirit returning to God or punishment after death.

It dealt with covenant issues that are expressed in terms of everlasting destruction and eternal life which are expressions of reproach-legacy-inefficacy and perpetual efficacy in this life as pertains to ongoing history (the new age which was the generational expectation of Jesus, the apostles and in all the gospels and Epistles).

The term "expressions of reproach-legacy-inefficacy" is not in the Bible! IMO, this is obfuscation. These are simply confusing buzz words.

Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 22, 2009, 08:53:44 PM
The reward for the faithful was the inauguration of the new age making everything new. A blessing to all forever. And a blessing to all who lived and died under the old covenant.

The only law or separation that exists is presently between our ears. There is no "covenant" for separation to stand on. The only accuser is between our ears. The works of the devil are destroyed.
Christ is the last Adam.
We are the benefactors.

Paul argued that the covenant with Abraham was not affected by the giving of the law. He said the promise, that "in thy seed shall all nations be blessed," was the gospel.

Galatians 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The New Covenant says "I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:" [Heb. 8:10] "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." [Heb. 10:15-17] These are quotations from Jeremiah 31. It is those who are partakers of the new covenant, (a.k.a. "the new testament") who have their sins forgiven. Jesus said, "This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." [Luke 22:20]

Doug

Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2009, 03:18:39 PM
The Hyper-Preterist theory means, of course, that when Christ died on the cross, He did not pay the penalty for Adam's transgression.  Some Hyper-Preterists are so bold as to say that the cross was merely a "sign."  That is, the shedding of Christ's blood on Calvary has no objective efficacy in the work of savlation.  It was not Christ's physical death that provided atonement, but His spiritual separation from God.  A more heretical concept we can scarcely imagine.

I'm really not in favor of the death penalty; sacrificial and substitution theories.
The penalty remains, until the Resurrection, as the crime still persists:

Created by God          Murdered by Man

Love                           Hate
Forgiveness                 Retribution or revenge.
Redemption                 Arrogance
Truth                          Deception
Healing people             Hurting people
Spiritual                      Man made Religion
Holy                           Self Righteousness
Good                          Evil
Life                            Death
Peace                         War
Hope                          Despair
Freedom                     Imprisonment
Joy                             Pain
Faith in God                Trusting in self
Power of God               Wickedness of Man
Judged by God             Convicted by Man

"By his silence, he condemns their behaviors; and the unrighteousness within them."

Forgiveness does not mean condoning that which is exposed in death.
Rather, it is the power of love and life. 

Just for the Record:

I am offended when anyone puts that out even when they explain what it is suposed to mean.

Hyper Peterists: Because just because some people like me believes aspects of the above bad name, does not mean I am one....

" I believe that " when Christ Rose from the dead, that All things were at that time made new, "Vivified" Made alive, IN the Anointed, All that Adam brought to death was Made (Dragged kicking) into Life. AND there is nothing that will be left out of Life when all is said and done. Lake of Fire ??

Well if you want to read a Jewish book and insert your self in that life of "death" than "good journey" I chose not to be a follower of the tree of the knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL. I chose the tree of LIFE. Where in there is "NO DEATH, SIN"

Lee

Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 22, 2009, 08:53:44 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 07:06:30 PM

Quote from: Zeek on November 22, 2009, 04:03:51 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

imo, yes

Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 22, 2009, 04:42:54 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

Yes.

Aaaarghhh. So the 50 or so pages of the last 2 months wasn't about not dying in this life but in the LoF.
I guess I can stop praying now  :laughing7:

The lake if fire is the catastrophic end of the old covenant in AD 70.
The second death is the end of that legacy and the reproach upon that legacy that is attached to ego driven identity under the precedence of types and figures. [Which is an absence of a historical revelation of God's love without condition. Such a revelation however was played out in history for the ongoing future of humanity.]
The lake of fire (baptism of fire) and the second death are interrelated.

All of this about "this life".
None of this has anything to do with postmortem continuity as Christendom has calculated it.
None of this has anything to do with the spirit returning to God or punishment after death.

It dealt with covenant issues that are expressed in terms of everlasting destruction and eternal life which are expressions of reproach-legacy-inefficacy and perpetual efficacy in this life as pertains to ongoing history (the new age which was the generational expectation of Jesus, the apostles and in all the gospels and Epistles).
The reward for the faithful was the inauguration of the new age making everything new. A blessing to all forever. And a blessing to all who lived and died under the old covenant.

The only law or separation that exists is presently between our ears. There is no "covenant" for separation to stand on. The only accuser is between our ears. The works of the devil are destroyed.
Christ is the last Adam.
We are the benefactors.


Many blessings Barry

I think these are some good points, Barry.

In Revelation, God is saying I make (or am making) all things new, not I made or have made...

This speaks to me of ongoing process.

Thanks for the input Doc.

"I am making everything new" is the correct tense in the Greek. 

Blessings Barry

 in the temple everything was cleansed, by water, blood or fire

  what was not cleansed by water[word] and

    blood[life of Christ/atonement]

  was cleansed through fire....spirit.......

    Daniel 3;24 Then King Nebuchadnezer leaped to his fet in amazement and asked his advisors, 'weren't there three men that WE TIED UP AND THREW IN THE FIRE?' they rplied 'certainly O'King'  He said, 'LOOK! I see four men walking around in the fire, UNBOUND AND UNHARMED"

  So, if anyone is bound to a goat..he will go into the LOF prepared for the demons..were this 'binding of disobediance' will be loosed by Christ..      the hour comes when no man can work[bound by disobediance]]   the works of satan which has them bound will be burned up and they will be loosed by Christ.

   Psalms 66;12    You let men ride over our heads, we went through fire and water, but you brought us to a place of abundance.

  SOS 8;6   Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm. for love is as strong as death, it's jealousy unyeilding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire,like a mighty flame.

  Many waters can not quench love, rivers can not wash it away

 :cloud9: AMEN........some can choose to be released now thru submission to His Spirit (deliverance), some later, and some after the body is no more, but ALL will go thru it.  Blessings.....

 Yes,

  and many are bound by the king of Babylon in this way...how?

well, in that scenario...this occurred..

  Now when you hear the sound of the horn,flute,zither harp

and pipes and all kinds of music

  IF YOU ARE READY TO FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP THE IMAGE

I MADE, VERY GOOD. But if you do NOT worship it, you will be

thrown immediately into a blazing [hell?]furnace. Then what

god will

be able to rescue you from my hand.? Sadly, many are bound to

a false image of God per the king of Babylon and his false

image.. the fire of the spirit of God's love will burn their bindings


  Luke 13;16  Then should not this woman a daughter of

Abraham, whom satan has kept bound these 18 long years

be set free on the sabbath day from what bound her?


   When he said this, all his opponets were humiliated,

but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he

was doing.