Lake of fire?

[Seth]

what does it mean to be "hurt of the second death", since per Rev 2; some won't be hurt of it; which implies some will be hurt of it??

I think it says that some are not to be hurt of the second death because they aren't even in it anymore. They have crossed the doorway (Jesus Christ) into the "city" and are saved from being "thirsty" for the "water of life."

[Zeek]

what does it mean to be "hurt of the second death", since per Rev 2; some won't be hurt of it; which implies some will be hurt of it??

I think it says that some are not to be hurt of the second death because they aren't even in it anymore. They have crossed the doorway (Jesus Christ) into the "city" and are saved from being "thirsty" for the "water of life."

did they cross into the "heavenly city" via being "hurt of the second death"??

[Seth]

what does it mean to be "hurt of the second death", since per Rev 2; some won't be hurt of it; which implies some will be hurt of it??

I think it says that some are not to be hurt of the second death because they aren't even in it anymore. They have crossed the doorway (Jesus Christ) into the "city" and are saved from being "thirsty" for the "water of life."

did they cross into the "heavenly city" via being "hurt of the second death"??

Do you mean because they were hurt, they took up the brides offer to drink from the water of life? I believe so. It makes sense to me anyway.

[Zeek]

what does it mean to be "hurt of the second death", since per Rev 2; some won't be hurt of it; which implies some will be hurt of it??

I think it says that some are not to be hurt of the second death because they aren't even in it anymore. They have crossed the doorway (Jesus Christ) into the "city" and are saved from being "thirsty" for the "water of life."

did they cross into the "heavenly city" via being "hurt of the second death"??

Do you mean because they were hurt, they took up the brides offer to drink from the water of life? I believe so. It makes sense to me anyway.

so if I understand you, all go through the "wide gait" first ; in order to enter through the narrow?? 

[Zeek]

If the second death/gehenna is the "outer court", then how can one be cast into it??  since theoretically; that's where you already are if not an overcomer??

Mat 5:29  And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[Beloved Servant]

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW7.htm#The Lake Of Fire

[Seth]

and if all go through lake of fire for purification

Depends on what you mean by "purification." Purification is essentially destruction for the purpose of making pure. But that destruction may come in different forms. To the proud, it's:  "deliver him over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so his spirit may be saved in the day of the lord." Not the kind of purification I want. Jesus warned his followers to stay away from Gehenna, to not let it get to the point where the whole body must be defiled there for destruction unto purity.

But to the humble: "for the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to become Godly in this present age" (major paraphrase but hopefully you understand).

So the question is, how do you want to be purified: through grace, or by being handed over to satan?

[Zeek]

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW7.htm#The Lake Of Fire

read that several times, but personally am not seeing the article as my truth; which doesn't mean that it's not true.  In the story of the prodigal son, there still is the son that stayed at his Father's side the WHOLE time, who never left and squandered his inheritance.  Who is that son??  

[Seth]

so if I understand you, all go through the "wide gait" first ; in order to enter through the narrow?? 

Right. Is anyone born without a carnal mind? My daughter has one, I can attest personally.

[Zeek]

and if all go through lake of fire for purification

Depends on what you mean by "purification." Purification is essentially destruction for the purpose of making pure. But that destruction may come in different forms. To the proud, it's:  "deliver him over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so his spirit may be saved in the day of the lord." Not the kind of purification I want. Jesus warned his followers to stay away from Gehenna, to not let it get to the point where the whole body must be defiled there for destruction unto purity.

But to the humble: "for the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to become Godly in this present age" (major paraphrase but hopefully you understand).

So the question is, how do you want to be purified: through grace, or by being handed over to satan?

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[sparrow]

and if all go through lake of fire for purification

Depends on what you mean by "purification." Purification is essentially destruction for the purpose of making pure. But that destruction may come in different forms. To the proud, it's:  "deliver him over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so his spirit may be saved in the day of the lord." Not the kind of purification I want. Jesus warned his followers to stay away from Gehenna, to not let it get to the point where the whole body must be defiled there for destruction unto purity.

But to the humble: "for the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to become Godly in this present age" (major paraphrase but hopefully you understand).

So the question is, how do you want to be purified: through grace, or by being handed over to satan?

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Yeah, I gotta throw one of these:    :thumbsup:  in there too.

[Zeek]

so if I understand you, all go through the "wide gait" first ; in order to enter through the narrow?? 

Right. Is anyone born without a carnal mind? My daughter has one, I can attest personally.

So is going through the wide gait a process, or a condition in your opinion??

[Zeek]

so if I understand you, all go through the "wide gait" first ; in order to enter through the narrow?? 

Right. Is anyone born without a carnal mind? My daughter has one, I can attest personally.

So do you still have a carnal mind?? 

if so, does that mean you are still in the "outer court"?  still on the wide road?? 

[Seth]

so if I understand you, all go through the "wide gait" first ; in order to enter through the narrow?? 

Right. Is anyone born without a carnal mind? My daughter has one, I can attest personally.

So is going through the wide gait a process, or a condition in your opinion??

I think it is a walk in death throughout our earthly lives before the Lord sets us free. The narrow gate leads to life. I think what Jesus is saying is that being free from abiding in sin in Christ is life. That is a narrow walk (gate).

So do you still have a carnal mind??  if so, does that mean you are still in the "outer court"?  still on the wide road?? 

I believe I have sin, in the same way I have flesh, as I know that the Spirit set me free from being in slavery to the flesh. But I also reckon myself dead to sin and alive to Christ, being that I no longer WALK in the flesh (even if I am not perfect).

To me the most difficult thing to understand has always been the fact that we are free from the flesh, yet we still have the flesh. We are free from sin (not abiding in it) and yet we still have sin, in the same way. That is why TEACHING through grace is necessary. If already perfect, we wouldn't need to be taught how to live like the Lord. That shows me that to be in New Jerusalem does not require instant perfection, but is in itself the picture of grace being delivered to those who drink from the Spirit.

[Seth]

and if all go through lake of fire for purification

Depends on what you mean by "purification." Purification is essentially destruction for the purpose of making pure. But that destruction may come in different forms. To the proud, it's:  "deliver him over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so his spirit may be saved in the day of the lord." Not the kind of purification I want. Jesus warned his followers to stay away from Gehenna, to not let it get to the point where the whole body must be defiled there for destruction unto purity.

But to the humble: "for the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to become Godly in this present age" (major paraphrase but hopefully you understand).

So the question is, how do you want to be purified: through grace, or by being handed over to satan?

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Yeah, I gotta throw one of these:    :thumbsup:  in there too.

Thanks. Talking about Revelation can be intimidating which is why I usually steer clear, because I don't want to make claims of things I know nothing about. That is why I am presenting this as just my idea of what the LOF may be representing in relation to the more plain teachings in the epistles. These are just ideas I have about it, not dogmatic about it at all.

[eaglesway]

    The reference to the thousand years and the first and second resurrection, cross referenced with the verses in Romans 2:5-16; Acts 17:31;John 5:28,29)about the great white throne judgment, and others, such as Jesus' own interpretation of His parables relating to (in His words) "the end of the age"(Matthew 13:39,40;24:3;28:20) cause me to see a historical connection with this portion of Revelation and the age times.
       
    Even as the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven will find its ultimate fulfillment at the end of the age and she will be presented in all her glory in the millennial reign. We know she is now(as Seth points out- in Hebrews 12), but she "comes down out of the heavens"(means manifest on earth) in times of revival and restoration. In any spirit filled local expression of the body united with Christ she is "coming down" even as the members are "seated in the heavenly realms"(Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven).
   
     She will be "fully manifested" when she is presented as a chaste virgin at the Lord's parousia/epiphanea at the end of this age- when "The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ"(has not manifested yet). Most prophetic symbols have "the was", "the is" and the "is to come" aspect. Wheels within wheels. A historical administration suitable to the fulness of times does not exclude the ever present realities of the word pictures any more that the prophecies concerning the Messiah were excluded in the OT by His as yet unfulfilled "manifestation".

     I believe the LOF is symbolic to the extent that it is not a physical flame. It is the pure purging light of our God who is a consuming fire. Everyone on earth is always in the fire in some measure. Those who are "outside the city" grind their teeth as the wood hay and stubble burns, those "inside the city" shine(Mal 3:1-5).
     Yet without really bending the prophetic narratives of Paul and Peter and Jesus I don't see how the historical connection can be dismissed. Prohecy has always been "was, is, is to come." Daniels "golden head" was both a spiritual revelation of the nature of the babylon spirit and an actual historic "manifestation". The toes of clay and iron that would be struck by the "little stone" were also both symbolic and historical.

       As all men are to be "made alive", but, each in his own order(1 Cor 15), there is a historical sequence to that- first Christ, then those who are his at His appearing (the exanastasis; "out-resurrection" Paul desires to "attain to" in Philippians 3:11; 2 Tim 4:8; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 24:29-31) and then comes "the end" (the events that pertain to the order of ressurection and judgment of all the dead who did not participate in the first resurrection)(Rev 20:5,6).

       The progression of events does not exclude the symbolic realities any more than Jesus' actual manifestation, "foreordained from the foundation of the kosmos but "manifest" in these last times for you"(1 Pet 1:20) excludes all the symbolic pictures in the OT and NT concerning that event in the "consummation of the ages"(Heb 9:26)- sent forth in the "fulness of time"(Gal 4:4)

When the time of Israels captivity was finished, 70 years, they were restored to the land as a remnant and the temple was rebuilt and some of the richest "was, is, is to come" prophecies in the word for our time today were uttered during that time.Jeremiahs prophecy(was) was fulfilled, as was Zechariah's (is) and yet the symbols also spoke to us today of the "finishing" of the temple that we are becoming as living stones. The word is eternal, transcending time, but it is given in time and "manifests" in time until death is swallowed by immortality. The work stalled many times before the time came where the temple was "finished" as in "manifested".

When the "day of Pentecost was fully come", the prophecy of Joel was fulfilled, the "promise" to "you and your children and all who are afar off even as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself" was INITIATED- it is yet to be fulfilled.

There is a partial hardening upon earthly Israel "until the fulness of the Gentiles be brought in". This "time of the Gentiles" being fulfilled, is just another of many facets of the administration of the fulness of "times" (kairos- set appointed times). Time(s) is another word like aion and world(one english word used for 6 Greek words). The study of "kairos"( an administration suitable to the fulness of times( Eph 1:10) "chronos" (Gal 4:4 the fulness of time), "geneah"(generations), "pote"(times past-these last times 1 Pet 1:20) and others is an interesting one.

Act 3:19-21  Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,  (20)  and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,[a]  (21)  whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Act 17:26-31  And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times(kairos) before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;  (27)  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:  (28)  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.  (29)  Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.  (30)  And the times(chronos) of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:  (31)  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

The blood of Jesus is the cure to the second death- those who abide in Christ will have nothing to burn- grace is sufficient. The ones whose conscience excuses them on that day when Jesus judges all the dead from all the times(Romans 2) by the secrets of their hearts- will also enter life without going into the second death. The second death is an experience "reserved"(2 Pet 2:4, 3:7; Jude 1;6) for the devil/fallen angels and the beast and false prophet and a certain portion of mankind that did not receive the witness of God that is revealed in nature(Romans 1-Therefore you are without excuse O man) and/or whatever other things such as predatory wickedness, apostasy, evil stewardship that are adversarial to all things being summed up in Christ and God being all in all. The LOF is the means of the second death and also the means of destroying sheol and death. I think it is a mistake to say that all of this is symbolic for fiery trials in this life because we know the wicked often prosper in their wickedness until death, but as the psalmist says, their Day is coming(Psalm 37:13).

Until the last enemy is made void, rendered powerless and reconciled, and until God is all in all- all these things turn on the wheel of time, the ages as spokes connected to "the mystery" of His kind intention He purposed in Him, the reconciling of all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross. Those who are washed in the blood have "now received" the reconciliation.

1Pe 1:3-13  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  (4)  To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,  (5)  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.  (6)  Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:  (7)  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:  (8)  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:  (9)  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.  (10)  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:  (11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.  (12)  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.  (13)  Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

[Seth]

    Even as the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven will find its ultimate fulfillment at the end of the age and she will be presented in all her glory in the millennial reign. We know she is now(as Seth points out- in Hebrews 12), but she "comes down out of the heavens"(means manifest on earth) in times of revival and restoration. In any spirit filled local expression of the body united with Christ she is "coming down" even as the members are "seated in the heavenly realms"(Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven).

You bring up very interesting points. It's interesting that John goes up to a mountain in order to see the descending city of New Jerusalem, the church of the firstborn. Here is how I am seeing that probably close to what you are saying. The mountain is is the high place that God places his little ones on this earth, and the city descends because it shows that it is heavenly coming down to the earth (because of the Holy Spirit). It's like earth and heaven meeting together, on earth as it is in heaven. Heaven is the sky in the translation. The sky is the symbolism of a raised being, way of thinking, way of walking. It's descending from heaven, even while being high "on a mountain" in the earth. It's simultaneously heavenly while being formed also in the earth.

Another very important point is the fact that we have not fully come into the inheritance as the NT epistles clearly say. We have been given this motherly church (city), formed by the Spirit. We wait for the redemption of the purchased possession. So in as much as we have inherited the City, we still have hope, and if we see the end now, we don't have hope. We all see a final perfecting, and that is our hope.

The question is, since we still have sin, does that mean we have one foot in the city and one in the LOF? I believe not. The reason is because even though we are not perfect, we are NOT under Law and fully under Grace. We are not partially under Law because we have sin because Grace, as you said, is sufficient. In that way, I believe the City is sufficient for the humbled, though they may not be perfected. The LOF is NOT for the city dwellers. It's on the outside of Jerusalem, not the inside. And God is still building the City, and continue to perfect it until the end.

[eaglesway]

I agree with that completely. We have received the "earnest/pledge/down payment" guaranteeing the "purchased possession". What Christ purchased for us we have received within the firstfruits of the Spirit, Christ in us- bringing many sons to glory, transforming us into the image we will bear fully. "We know not yet what we will be but we know that when He appears we will be like Him for we will see Him as He is"(1 Jn). "the revelation of the sons of God, even the redemption of our body"(Ro 8). Now we know in part, then we will "know as we are known".

   As sons having received the adoption, I believe we have no part with the LOF. The fire we are being tried and purged with as sons is the refiners fire as in Mal. 3:1-3 and Paul saying "If any man cleanse Himself from these he will be a vessel fit for the masters use".If we "endure to the end" in the "patience of the saints" the blood will do the work along with the fires of persecution and the fire of trial and sanctification of the Spirit. We endeavor to enter our sonship here through discipleship, no longer as children, kept under tutors, under law(Gal 4) we move through sanctification into the "glorious liberty of the sons of God"-"Behold, it is written in the scroll of me, I come to do Thy will O God"-"Zeal for Your house consumes me".

   I believe their are several manifestations of the fire of God and the lake of fire is a specific one "prepared" for "the devil and his messengers." "Reserved" for those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness"
(Romans 1&2), and for those who have "abandoned their proper abode"(Jude)

The fire that will burn the "wood hay and stubble" of believers who build in a wrong spirit on the foundation(1 Cor 3:10-18) may be a different "manifestation" yet again. The fire is all of God, but perhaps different manifestations for different purposes. Thats how I see the LOF anyway, a specific manifestation for a specific purpose in accomplishing "the gathering together into one in Christ" and the "subjecting of all the adversaries" and the "bowing of every knee" through an administration applied through age times so that God may be all in all. We have received the reconciliation through "bowing the knee and confessing with the tongue". Various and sundry events triggered our repentence, our "change of heart and mind"-all by grace and according to the foreknowledge of God who sees all things from outside of time. When asked, "Then why does He find fault"?(Ro 9), Paul replies, "Who are you?" "What if God prepared the vessels of destruction in order to demonstrate His mercy on the vessels of mercy" (Eph That He might show upon us the riches of His grace in the ages to come). Pharoah was raised up just so. I do not think Paul is saying not to question- I think he is saying again, in another way, what he sums up two chapters later at the end of this discourse on times and purposes and grace and judgment(Ro 16),

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!..... We see through a glass darkly, but we are not through with time and the judgments of God yet. The day has dawned in our hearts because we are "children of the light."
It is still coming as a thief upon many, both now and in the "full noon" to come.

Jud 1:3-6  Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.  (4)  For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.  (5)  Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.  (6)  And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

I just see too many clear references to the appointed time and place where God will deal with the adversaries to believe it is all symbolic of earthly trials, which all men share in common, as the rain that falls on the just and unjust alike. Our inheritance is "reserved in heaven" because we are washed, we are sanctified, we are justified. The sons of disobedience have a different mechanism "reserved" and "prepared." Some mens sins go before them into judgment (obvious sin obviously judged on this side of the veil) some mens sins follow after, reserved "for the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men's hearts through Christ Jesus"(Ro 2:16)

I don't think the adversaries are the generations of ignorant men of whom Paul testifies, "God winks" at their ignorance(Acts 17:30). They are the predatory wicked and hostile of mind when plainly confronted with the truth of God's eternal power and divine nature, resisting His gracious life and light and walking in hatred, lasciviousness and arrogance despite the light of His grace.

[sheila]

when a feild is so overtaken by weeds...fire is used to not only destroy the weed plants ,but to burn the seeds to prevent them
from sprouting and bringing forth after their kind.

  Have any of you ever been to a mill and seen all the dust in the air as the processing takes place? Explosions of fire are
a constant concern. I liken the lake of fire as that.

  seperating wheat from chaff..spirit from dust,sheep from goat
  gold and silver from dross,in all of us individually.

  this is something that only our former and creator can do for us and in us.

   Firstborn of the dead are the first resurrection..they are the
wheat,the sheep the gold and silver,the spirit. the resurrection of the wicked is the same as satan being released from the abyss to go off into eternal destruction...the tare,the dross,
the goat,the dust.

  Now, if we were already dead in our tresspasses..and received the spirit of life[Holy Spirit]and are born from above..but sin in our flesh keeps manifesting in our bodies undergoing this death,
then we are under new heavens and satan has been thrown to our earth,knowing He has a short time...then it is the seed of the serpent in operation in our earth[when we find  we are doing what we do not want to do] And when said seed is
seperated from us and burnt in the lake of fire it shall never be able to bring forth after it's kind again.

  so every human will be born again from above..in the image of Christ as firstborn of the dead..or quickened of the Holy spirit
the first resurrection[in the last days I will pour out my spirit on all flesh]

the secound resurrection is when satan released from the abyss bring forth wickedness in the earth[our flesh] after his kind[surrounding the camp of the Holy city] and fire consumes
this regenerated/resurrected seed in our flesh.

  for those borne of God[from above/spirit] do not practice sin
but there most certainly is something that is NOT of God that is
bringing forth after it's kind in this earth

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: Blessings.....

[eaglesway]

       While I see these principles, it appears to me from reading the scripture that Peter and Paul also saw them connected to events in history, and were not speaking strictly in figures. The idea that all these things play out in the lives of each individual..... I can see that, yet, the history remains, and time marches on in the purposes of God which are tailored to individuals, to families, to nations and to the times, generations and ages of the entire kosmos. For this reason we needed the ACTUAL death, burial and resurrection of the Lamb and His ACTUAL blood and His actual Spirit filling us. Even as the ACTUAL armies surrounded Jerusalem in Jehoshaphat's day and Hezekiah's day and Josiah's day after the restoration of the nation under the restoration kings, so also the holy city (the temple we are corporately) is being restored (woman clothed with the sun, pregnant with the manchild) and surrounded (dragon sending a flood, deception and persecution) again in the passion play of God's acts in men in time and history that rises towards the second coming, the second earthly manifestation of Jesus Christ. We fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers of darkness, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms. This is not just a figure. The body of Christ is the snake raised upon the stick for all the world to see-

Rom 8:16-19  The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,  (17)  and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.  (18)  For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.  (19)  For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

Grace and peace, John

[Seth]

As sons having received the adoption, I believe we have no part with the LOF. The fire we are being tried and purged with as sons is the refiners fire as in Mal. 3:1-3 and Paul saying "If any man cleanse Himself from these he will be a vessel fit for the masters use".If we "endure to the end" in the "patience of the saints" the blood will do the work along with the fires of persecution and the fire of trial and sanctification of the Spirit. We endeavor to enter our sonship here through discipleship, no longer as children, kept under tutors, under law(Gal 4) we move through sanctification into the "glorious liberty of the sons of God"-"Behold, it is written in the scroll of me, I come to do Thy will O God"-"Zeal for Your house consumes me".

   I believe their are several manifestations of the fire of God and the lake of fire is a specific one "prepared" for "the devil and his messengers." "Reserved" for those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness"
(Romans 1&2), and for those who have "abandoned their proper abode"(Jude)

Amen  :thumbsup:

[Zeek]

As sons having received the adoption, I believe we have no part with the LOF. The fire we are being tried and purged with as sons is the refiners fire as in Mal. 3:1-3 and Paul saying "If any man cleanse Himself from these he will be a vessel fit for the masters use".If we "endure to the end" in the "patience of the saints" the blood will do the work along with the fires of persecution and the fire of trial and sanctification of the Spirit. We endeavor to enter our sonship here through discipleship, no longer as children, kept under tutors, under law(Gal 4) we move through sanctification into the "glorious liberty of the sons of God"-"Behold, it is written in the scroll of me, I come to do Thy will O God"-"Zeal for Your house consumes me".

   I believe their are several manifestations of the fire of God and the lake of fire is a specific one "prepared" for "the devil and his messengers." "Reserved" for those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness"
(Romans 1&2), and for those who have "abandoned their proper abode"(Jude)

Amen  :thumbsup:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Zeek]

   As sons having received the adoption, I believe we have no part with the LOF.

but do you believe you were in the LOF prior to "coming to faith", as a child of wrath?? 

I personally don't.  I believe the LOF is the judgment upon the mindset of those who turned the truth of God into a lie.  I believe the LOF is his "wrath" at the day of judgment;

Quite a few here, believe everyone is in LOF prior to faith,  and I assume hurt by it prior to coming to faith in Christ; and then are lifted up out of it and "not hurt by it".   That all must take the wide road to destruction first, in order to enter the narrow path. 


I continue to believe that the Noah story was a similtude of the LOF; and during Noah's trial of his faith (which was before the world was hurt by the "rain/fire"); then (later) the wrath (fire/rain) came and the world went through the "wide gait of destruction", and the "believers" were lifted up/raised up above, and sheltered by the ark (Christ) and pitch (atonement). 

[eaglesway]

I understand that everyone is in the fire..... I think that it is an overstep of interpretation to say the lake of fire is the  universal fire in all examples where the symbol of fire is used. Light is fire to darkness(1 Cor 3:13). Its not about actual flames. Our God IS a consuming fire, but it is written that the LOF was "prepared" for a specific purpose and time. I take a historical view towards some of the prophetic utterances where multiple references by diverse figures such as Jesus, Peter, Paul and Jude define an age -time connection to fulfillment. Even tho the principle of the Lamb slain is eternal the "manifestation" was "appointed" to the "fulness of times"(fulness for that specific purpose. There are other "fulness of times" for different "manifestations"). THIS IS THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE MYSTERY.The words "appointed" and "reserved" apply to the LOF.

At some point the idea that all these things are symbolic breaks down in the plain language of scripture. The language is so plain in places I wonder if some think their revelation surpasses the speakers of the oracles of God. Why the geneology, if the line is not historical? It is obvious in some places that many years and events are seen in a few verses and symbology is a part of the narrative- that does not invalidate the historic record, it is a method of overview and revealing the core of the event. The event is still historical, in keeping with the mystery of the ages. 

    If Paul says "God winked" at the times of ignorance among the Gentiles, how can they have been in the LOF(metaphorically speaking, winking, and apolumae, are really different)- something Jesus and Paul define as a specific method of remedial chastisement of the wicked who have stood against the "truth"(light that lighteth everyman, law written on heart, divine nature, logos  name above all names, etc.). Romans chapters 1&2 reveal the appointed time and method where God will decide by the secrets of their hearts who will be administered in the LOF.
    The idea that the fire that sons of the evil one endure in this life is sufficient is just not realistic(from a scriptural view, since Jesus explains His own parable about the tares and "the end of the age"), especially for those who are reprobate and predatory and adamantly opposed. That such pure rebellion exists may seem a stretch to some....but not to me, and the scripture supports this view.  A major emphasis in the exhortation to "overcome" is to attain to the first resurrection to avoid the second death. Our rewards are in this age and the ages to come as well.

    As you said, a lot of folks I have take a much stronger stand on symbolic interpretation. I agree with most of the symbolic interpretation I have seen "in principle". What I disagree with is any conclusion that suggests the ages are fulfilled and that none of these events described as time related by our Lord and the apostles are "really" time related. I love the symbols of the scripture and believe they represent eternal truths (realities that transcend time), but many of them are initiated (as the dawn) in time and fulfilled(full noon) in accordance with the administration of the ages.

     The blood prevents our experiencing the LOF. If we "walk in the Light as He is in the light we have koinonea and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sins".Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed. Forgive one another. Love one another.Bear one another's burdens. Koinonea is the purpose of creation and all that God has done from the beginning to the end. "Oh How good and how pleasant it is when brethren abide together in unity. If we keep abiding  in koinonea, confessing our faults, repenting and receiving forgiveness- the "withering" fire of Jn 15 and 1 Cor 3:13 has nowhere to lite as we "grow in grace through grace".

    And we do experience fire. The baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire, for instance, is not the LOF. It is the fire that consumed Elijah's offering- a demonstration of God's acceptable sacrifice(Romans 12:1-3).The fiery trial of our faith, in my opinion is not the LOF. It is the discipline of sons. The LOF is for those who abused the rights of sonship and stewardship, left their abode, or refused sonship altogether. They died the first death and now they must face the "appointed" day that has already "taken them as a thief". The thief, however is the bailiff who will deliver them to the judge who will sentence them to "jail" until they "pay the last cent"(bow the knee, as all we already have, receiving the reconciliation in the "now"). But some will not yield, so there is some dealing yet to come, defined in human words as the LOF. I make no confident assertions as to its nature- It may be an intense moment of exposure in God's presence, or an age long shaking the bars of the cell as the grace of God pours upon the soul, heaping coals of fire on the head, but I do see a distinction unique to the LOF. For me, to insist that all fire is the same doesn't work with the language of scripture.

I think, Hebrews 2:8-10 communicates well about the duality of eternal prohetic reality and the relationship to time. We still have "untils" to deal with, even as "children of the day".

(Heb 2:8)  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet(past tense). For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him(present tense).


We know from 1 Cor 15:22-28, Eph.1:10 and others- This is being fulfilled through a process connected (and intensely so) with the ages and several kosmos(Noah's, created out of water and destroted by water, our present kosmos reserved for the renewing fire, the kosmos to come). There are also the times, seasons(there is a time and a purpose to every season under heaven) and the generations and boundaries of men(Acts 17:26-31). Paul clealry teaches at Mars Hill that God has set these things in place to cause men to seek Him and find Him.

(1Co 15:22)  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

(1Co 15:23)  But every man in his own order(administration): Christ (past tense)the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.(future tense)

(1Co 15:24)  Then cometh the end(future tense), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God(definition of specific time yet to come), even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(1Co 15:25)  For he must reign(present tense), till he hath put all enemies under his feet(specific definition of age time fulfillment of eternal truth stated in Hebrews 2:8).

(1Co 15:26)  The last enemy(order, fulness of time, fulfilled administration) that shall be destroyed is death.

(1Co 15:27)  For he hath(past tense in time, but also eternal tense, in that it is a finished work "manifesting" through the mechanism of the ages), put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

(1Co 15:28)  And when all things shall be subdued unto him(future tense), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all(final tense  :happyclap:)

Paul uses plain language,defining the relationship between time and eternity "in this present evil age" and it is really not that sublime. Paul writes about time and generation and age related purposes more than anyone and seems to see no conflict between his language when defining temporal aspects and eternal aspects that will unite in "times of fulfillment".