Lake of fire?

[sscoulter]

I am sure this has been answered here many times, so forgive me for asking again. I am trying to read as much as I can about the UR doctrine, but reading about the Lake of fire last night, and seeing plainly that there will be souls judged and thrown into it, how do you reconcile that with UR?

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15


Thanks,


S

[WhiteWings]

1/3 down the page "Lake of Fire Series" A lot to read. But good. http://bible-truths.com/

Personally I believe there is no real fire. It's more a spiritual fire of Father.
Neither is it eternal. I've a little list with verses that all link God to fire. In a cleaning way.
I'm not at home right now so a quick quote of what I wrote in another thread.

Tormented usally is read as tortured. I did read it that way too (due to my poor English)
But after looking below the surface tormented also means "testing"
Selective quote from Strong:

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

I especially like the part of purity of gold. Like a refinary that also cleans the dirt out of gold.
And that aligns perfectly with:
Malachi 3:2   But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Malachi 3:3  And he shall sit as a refiner (uses fire) and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi (priests), and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

[Apocatastasis]

sscoulter,

The Book of Revelation informs us that all evil will be destroyed in the lake of fire.  Would this not include the evil in you and I?

[Zeek]

sscoulter,

The Book of Revelation informs us that all evil will be destroyed in the lake of fire.  Would this not include the evil in you and I?

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.


Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.


Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

[sscoulter]

1/3 down the page "Lake of Fire Series" A lot to read. But good. http://bible-truths.com/

Personally I believe there is no real fire. It's more a spiritual fire of Father.
Neither is it eternal. I've a little list with verses that all link God to fire. In a cleaning way.
I'm not at home right now so a quick quote of what I wrote in another thread.

Tormented usally is read as tortured. I did read it that way too (due to my poor English)
But after looking below the surface tormented also means "testing"
Selective quote from Strong:

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

I especially like the part of purity of gold. Like a refinary that also cleans the dirt out of gold.
And that aligns perfectly with:
Malachi 3:2   But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Malachi 3:3  And he shall sit as a refiner (uses fire) and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi (priests), and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Thank you for the link, I think I have seen this site before, but I had never read any of the articles, and then could not find it, so again thank you.


S

[Doc]

Lake of Fire uses the same OT imagery as the cleansing laver in the temple. There's a great e-book on UR from the perspective of OT imagery in a link to the pdf book off of  www.savior-of-all.com

The title of the e-book is Creation's Jubilee.   :thumbsup:

[sscoulter]

Lake of Fire uses the same OT imagery as the cleansing laver in the temple. There's a great e-book on UR from the perspective of OT imagery in a link to the pdf book off of  www.savior-of-all.com

The title of the e-book is Creation's Jubilee.   :thumbsup:

Thanks Doc, I will check that out.


S

[Apocatastasis]

Lake of Fire uses the same OT imagery as the cleansing laver in the Temple.

Can you expound on this?

[Doc]

Lake of Fire uses the same OT imagery as the cleansing laver in the Temple.

Can you expound on this?

No; I've read several others who have made this connection, but it has been awhile. Feel free to check out the link to the e-book. I think this was one of the authors I read that talked about it.

[Apocatastasis]

Doc, the link you provided does not direct me to a book. Can you give me a more direct link?

[Doc]

Doc, the link you provided does not direct me to a book. Can you give me a more direct link?

I don't think a direct link will work. Click on the Free Downloads link at the bottom of that main page at savior-of-all.com, and the page should come up with the link to the Creation's Jubilee pdf.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.savior-of-all.com/Creation%27s%20Jubilee.pdf

[Dallas]

Hey Apoc;

Lake of Fire uses the same OT imagery as the cleansing laver in the Temple.

Can you expound on this?

Hey sscoulter;

3 Zephaniah 8"Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD,
         "For the day when I rise up as a witness
         Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
         To assemble kingdoms,
         To pour out on them My indignation,
         All My burning anger;
         For all the earth will be devoured
         By the fire of My zeal.
      9"For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
         That all of them may call on the name of the LORD,
         To serve Him shoulder to shoulder.

and we all know, "Whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved."

[sven]

literal death is also a possible interpretation:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

[jabcat]

Another good word from J. Preston Eby; 

Because of the gross misunderstanding of almost all people concerning the lake of fire, I would like to draw your attention to three words found in the passage quoted above. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which BURNS with FIRE and BRIMSTONE: which is the second death." The word BURN means combustion, or to consume. To consume does not mean to annihilate, for there is no such thing as annihilation in the absolute sense. When fire consumes a log in your fireplace it does not destroy any of the elements within the log, it merely changes their form.  Thus, to burn, means to CHANGE.

Fire is heat and light.

Charles Pridgeon says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone;   To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek.

God's blessing, James.

[Molly]

I heard a great teaching on the lake of fire, the other day.  He compared it to the brass laver outside of the temple where the priests would wash before entering the temple.  He said the laver was made of polished brass which would act as a mirror, so they could also see their reflection in it.  If anything was amiss, spot on clothes, hair out of place, etc, they were to fix that before entering the temple.  They were also to wash hands and feet before entering the temple.

Then he said this is the same function of the sea of glass which is also known as the sea of brass, and which I was assuming was also the lake of fire [this could be a wrong assumption,though].  The purpose is to reflect our image so that it can be perfected and purified. 


Revelation 15:2
And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi SSC... :hithere:

You are observing a SPIRITUAL and SYMBOLIC book... and in order to gain vision of it, you must view it in the SPIRIT and gain the meaning of its SYMBOLS in the SPIRIT...

UR is not penalized by the existence of the Lake of FIRE... when the LOF is SPIRITUALLY viewed to be what it actually, IS...

The LOF is NOT... "future"... it is "HERE" and "NOW"...

CHRIST was tried in FIRE... (Rev 3:18)  ...as are we (Mk 9:49 / 1 Pet 4:12 / 1 Cor 3:11-15)...

What do we think all the misery and pain and suffering ENDURED in this life is?   :dontknow:  Some "precursor" to an even worse future?  War, AIDS, cancer, marital infidelity, identity theft, adultery, natural disasters, ...Come, now!

This life is FULL of FIRE of every sort... which costs us all, some to larger degrees than others, but in every life, it is PURPOSED and ordained according to the WILL of the Creator -- Rom 9:19-21

I am sure this has been answered here many times, so forgive me for asking again. I am trying to read as much as I can about the UR doctrine, but reading about the Lake of fire last night, and seeing plainly that there will be souls judged and thrown into it, how do you reconcile that with UR?

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15

Thanks,

S

The book of the "REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST" is not "CHRONOLOGICAL"... as "in",  ..."beginning at "Chap 1 and ending at Chap 22"...

ALL within the REVELATION of He (who has neither beginning or end), are invested in MEN from their individual beginning [alpha] to their individual end [omega] and which are encompassed in the ONE who is BOTH (alpha & omega)... simulataneously -- at ALL "times"...

"Chronology" is often employed when observing the "Revelation" by those using TIME as the basis for its vision, and therefore, that vision becomes, ...finite vision...

ETERNAL VISION of the (revealed) essence of the ONE who IS both the alpha and omega, and the ONE who IS NOT "Chronological"...

NONE were written in the book of life, for ALL are appointed once to DIE, found CAST into THIS LIFE of suffering and pain... (Heb 9:27)

THIS lifetime on THIS Earth, IS the Lake of FIRE...  :mshock:  In which CHRIST was tried, and DIED -- and which we each in turn, ...are also tried, and DIE...

EVIL ...IS... conquered by the LIFE, death, and RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST, but concerning each individual, ...it's TIME must run its course... in each... despite the ETERNAL fact that it IS already defeated.

As IN ADAM... ALL DIE (not written in the "book" of life)... so IN CHRIST shall ALL be made ALIVE (written in the "book" of HIS LIFE)  1 Cor 15:22

...willieH  :cloud9:

[bobf]

literal death is also a possible interpretation:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

Implies that physical death and hades are cast into physical death.  Death swallowed up in death.

[sheila]

  Good post,Willie.

   O' death where is your sting, I will be deaths plague...and He

  is resurrection is the death of death.

                           Sheila

[willieH]

  Good post,Willie.

   O' death where is your sting, I will be deaths plague...and He

  is resurrection is the death of death.

                           Sheila

:2thumbs: :handshake:

...willieH    :cloud9:

[meefsgirl]

If the LOF is here and now, this lifetime, then what of those who die in their sin?

The scriptures say when a man dies he ceases from sin, so how are these people judged after death?

[jesushandsarekindhands]

If you read this, im sure you will be very enlightened.

http://tankrumblings.blogspot.com/2009/05/lake-burning-with-fire-and-brimstone.html

[Doug]

If the LOF is here and now, this lifetime, then what of those who die in their sin?

The scriptures say when a man dies he ceases from sin, so how are these people judged after death?

The LOF is called "the second death" in Rev. 21:8, which implies there has to be a resurrection. Jesus said there would be a resurrection of judgment.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

The KJV says "damnation," but I think it actually refers to the judgment. You can check some other translations; the NASB says judgment.

Isaiah said there will be a time when knowledge of God fills the earth, as water covers the sea.

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Jeremiah said the word of God is like fire; also Jesus said he came to "send fire on the earth." [Jer. 23:29; Luke 12:49]

If John used Isaiah's metaphor of waters of the sea, and combined it with the metaphor of fire, mentioned by Jeremiah and Jesus, he would very likely get the idea of a "lake of fire," which is a metaphor representing the purging and purification that must be connected with the judgment. In Rev. 7:14 John refers to the judgment as "great tribulation." The knowledge of God will probably feel a bit like "fire" to the wicked.

Doug

[meefsgirl]

Thanks for your answers! However, I do believe in the cleansing of the LOF... but what I'm confused about is... what is cleansed?

If we are to 'die' to the flesh, is that what dies in the LOF? If it is anything within that is not of God... is that what is cleansed?

The scriptures say that the flesh dies and the spirit returns to God at physical death. So if the flesh is already dead...

What exactly is resurrected? The flesh nature? The body of flesh and blood?  :dontknow:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The soul.......Blessings....