Lake of fire?

[WhiteWings]

Yeah, I thought about that.  This passage sounds so serious to me, I want to know more about it.

http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/unpardonable.html

[Chris]

Now for those who "spiritualize" this, and see these happenings as only shadows; I'm sure there can be multiple interpretations. 

But you don't "spiritualize" this in any way (despite the fact that Christ did not return physically in 70AD? Or do you believe that he did?)?

good point.  :); but u left off the second half of the sentence.  "....shadows"

Seemed to me that you were saying that to "spiritualize" the destruction of the the city of Jerusalem in 70AD IS to see it "only as shadows". Is that not what you were saying? If not, then how do you see it and what is your answer to the question?

You see Christ's "second coming" as being "spiritual" because you see this as being fulfilled in 70AD, even though Christ did not come "physically", right? And you see the result of His coming (which was spiritual) as the physical destruction of Jerusalem? Would that be a correct assessment?

What about the fact that the scriptures say:

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Isn't it BELIEVERS who are told to "watch" (look) for His coming and isn't that coming supposed to bring "salvation", not (just) destruction?

Granted things get "destroyed" by "the brightness of His coming", but that is not the whole purpose of His coming is it? Is it not to bring salvation? If so, then how do you see that fulfilled in 70AD through the physical destruction of the city of Jerusalem? What piece of the equation am I missing in connection to 70AD being the fulfillment of Christ's second coming - such that none who have ever lived since then need to be concerned with it because "it already happened"? 

If "the resurrection" is not past then how can Christ's (who IS the resurrection and the Life) "coming" be past? Or are they only "past" since 70AD? And if so, is it useless to continue to continue to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus"?

Personally (at the moment, anyway) I believe that is was all FINISHED at the cross (not in 70AD); but what remains it for us TO KNOW IT and WALK IN IT - TO WAKE from sleep and rise from the dead and WALK IN THE NEWNESS OF THE LIFE that has already been given to us, if we just walk in it (by the grace of God, of course).

[Chris]

It wasn't until I began to see the many connections and comparisons made in scripture between that which "not of this world" (above / the heavens) and that which is "of this world" (beneath / the earth) that I began to feel like I understood what the lake of fire is and where it can be found ('in the earth').

I think that it was this verse in particular that triggered such a study:

Pro 15:24  The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH.

So the question needs to be asked: what do we find "in the heavens" (above) and what do we find "in the earth" (beneath)? and I found the answers quite amazing and enlightening.

Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven ABOVE, and signs in the earth BENEATH; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

This led to other questions, like:

What does God call "a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day"? And where is that found and among whom? And how might this connect to "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name"?

I began to see the contrast being made between "the righteous" and "the wicked" in Pro 11 and was amazed to read that both the righteous and the wicked/sinner are recompensed "in the earth":

Pro 11:31  Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

This is just a taste of all that is held within the scriptures on the subject, but it seems to me to be all about:

John 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

It is about "the sons of God" vs "the sons of men".

It is "the sons of men" who are "set on fire".

Psa 57:4  My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.



Another comparison between "the heavens" and "the earth":

Act 7:49  Heaven is my throne, ... earth is my footstool:

Rev 1:15  And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;

Which relates back to "where" we are recompenses and what God calls "a smoke" in His nose, etc, etc.


If we are to look upon that which IS NOT SEEN (which is eternal/aionios) rather than upon those things which ARE SEEN (which are temporal / shadows of spiritual realities), "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" in order to "rightly divided the word of truth", then it seems to me that there is much more to "the heavens" and "the earth" than what we call "heaven" and "earth" after a carnal truth. So is there also, then, more to "a new heaven and new earth" than to believe that this physical word will one day be destroyed and renewed.

It seems to me that God has already created a new heavens and a new earth and we are now, by the grace of God, to enter into THE THIRD HEAVEN, wherein lies THE TREE OF LIFE.

In order to do that and "depart from hell beneath" we need to have Christ formed in us so that we can "awake from sleep" and "rise from the dead" so that Christ can give us LIFE.

The "dead" and the "living" ARE HERE; the "graves" that we have always needed to be redeemed from are not physical, but "the body of this death" wherein we are held "in sin and death". And part of the process of salvation is for that which is not fit for the kingdom of God (those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life) to be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death (to be buried WITH CHRIST - the second man - through whom comes THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD).

Just my humble opinion of course. As this is how I see it at the moment.  :2c:

[Zeek]

Now for those who "spiritualize" this, and see these happenings as only shadows; I'm sure there can be multiple interpretations. 

But you don't "spiritualize" this in any way (despite the fact that Christ did not return physically in 70AD? Or do you believe that he did?)?

good point.  :); but u left off the second half of the sentence.  "....shadows"

Seemed to me that you were saying that to "spiritualize" the destruction of the the city of Jerusalem in 70AD IS to see it "only as shadows". Is that not what you were saying? If not, then how do you see it and what is your answer to the question?

You see Christ's "second coming" as being "spiritual" because you see this as being fulfilled in 70AD, even though Christ did not come "physically", right? And you see the result of His coming (which was spiritual) as the physical destruction of Jerusalem? Would that be a correct assessment?

What about the fact that the scriptures say:

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Isn't it BELIEVERS who are told to "watch" (look) for His coming and isn't that coming supposed to bring "salvation", not (just) destruction?

Granted things get "destroyed" by "the brightness of His coming", but that is not the whole purpose of His coming is it? Is it not to bring salvation? If so, then how do you see that fulfilled in 70AD through the physical destruction of the city of Jerusalem? What piece of the equation am I missing in connection to 70AD being the fulfillment of Christ's second coming - such that none who have ever lived since then need to be concerned with it because "it already happened"? 

If "the resurrection" is not past then how can Christ's (who IS the resurrection and the Life) "coming" be past? Or are they only "past" since 70AD? And if so, is it useless to continue to continue to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus"?

Personally (at the moment, anyway) I believe that is was all FINISHED at the cross (not in 70AD); but what remains it for us TO KNOW IT and WALK IN IT - TO WAKE from sleep and rise from the dead and WALK IN THE NEWNESS OF THE LIFE that has already been given to us, if we just walk in it (by the grace of God, of course).

Hi Chris,

you have some great questions that i'll try to answer as best as I can, later today or this weekend.  If you really are interested in the "fulfilled" view and not to "shoot down" my "evolving" beliefs; i would encourage you to join the forum I posted earlier.  I truly am "evolving" with all of this. 

Also, this article i find interesting in regards to "fulfilled at the cross or 70 AD"

www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php   (hope works, couldn't get it to open earlier).

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I like what you wrote here Chris........ :thumbsup: you can see this in the pattern of the Tabernacle as well, as the inner court is the second heaven above, and the outer court, where the brazen altar with it's fire is, is therefore as the earth BELOW. Blessings....

[Seth]

If we are to look upon that which IS NOT SEEN (which is eternal/aionios) rather than upon those things which ARE SEEN (which are temporal / shadows of spiritual realities), "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" in order to "rightly divided the word of truth", then it seems to me that there is much more to "the heavens" and "the earth" than what we call "heaven" and "earth" after a carnal truth. So is there also, then, more to "a new heaven and new earth" than to believe that this physical word will one day be destroyed and renewed.

It seems to me that God has already created a new heavens and a new earth and we are now, by the grace of God, to enter into THE THIRD HEAVEN, wherein lies THE TREE OF LIFE.

I believe you are right about the "new heaven and new earth." Here is an article about how "heaven and earth" was a relationship between God and Israel, and as we know, there is a new Israel created through Christ's body and resurrection. That would be a "new heaven and new earth" (ie new relationship between God and Israel. It's worth a read.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm

[Chris]

Laren, my questions are not geared "to shoot down" anything. Is that what your questions are geared to when you question me? I am just trying to understand your position better and also explain mine and why it is different.

If it weren't for people asking questions of me and what I believe and me having to explain myself in light of what the scriptures say and I was not open to correction or open to questioning my own position in light of those questions and my answers (or lack of answers) in light of some "new piece of evidence" placed before me, then I would not be where I am today, which is in a very different place from where I was a few years ago at BT (which you already know).

So I hope that you will answer the questions that I ask you, even as I try to answer the ones that you ask me. :thumbsup:

[Seth]

Hi Chris,

you have some great questions that i'll try to answer as best as I can, later today or this weekend.  If you really are interested in the "fulfilled" view and not to "shoot down" my "evolving" beliefs; i would encourage you to join the forum I posted earlier.  I truly am "evolving" with all of this. 

Also, this article i find interesting in regards to "fulfilled at the cross or 70 AD"

www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php   (hope works, couldn't get it to open earlier).

Bummer, I tried to read it but I couldn't get it to open. It's stalling out.

[Chris]

Thanks Cardinal and Seth. I like what you said (and agree). I will check out the article. Thanks.

[Chris]

Hi Chris,

you have some great questions that i'll try to answer as best as I can, later today or this weekend.  If you really are interested in the "fulfilled" view and not to "shoot down" my "evolving" beliefs; i would encourage you to join the forum I posted earlier.  I truly am "evolving" with all of this. 

Also, this article i find interesting in regards to "fulfilled at the cross or 70 AD"

www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php   (hope works, couldn't get it to open earlier).

Bummer, I tried to read it but I couldn't get it to open. It's stalling out.

Not opening for me either, but I have to run out anyway so will try again later. Thanks again.

[Seth]

One thing that I started to realize about the law and the prophets being "fulfilled" was something that stopped me from becoming "preterist" in the sense of "all scripture being fulfilled" 2000 years ago. The thing I started to realize can be explained in the shadow of the slain lamb.

We know that the lambs slain by the Israelites of past were symbolic of the man who would be led like a lamb to the slaughter. But does that shadow pertain to Christ the man 2000 years ago, or does it pertain BOTH to him and to those who are IN him as well? I think the latter. I think the Law and the Prophets are being fulfilled not just 2000 years ago, but daily in all who are buried by baptism INTO the death that the slain lambs fortold and were meant to be fulfilled.

This is what Paul means when he said that there is no condemnation for those who walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh, that the "righteousness of the law be fulfilled" in them.  Paul said that the prophets were ministering to us, right? The were talking about better things that we would receive.

What I have come to realize is that the the entire New Testament absolutely REVOLVES around this point": the Promise of Abraham, 'Christ in us' being delivered upon. The NT is about the fulfillment of that ancient promise and the results that fulfillment is to produce in those who walk by it.

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD is not the end of prophecy fulfillment. It actually represents the BEGINNING of fulfillment to occur and keep occurring until we are all perfected. 70AD represents the destruction of our slavery to sin by entrance into a higher and new Jerusalem.

That is where my current opinion about the LOF comes from.

[Zeek]

Laren, my questions are not geared "to shoot down" anything. Is that what your questions are geared to when you question me? I am just trying to understand your position better and also explain mine and why it is different.

If it weren't for people asking questions of me and what I believe and me having to explain myself in light of what the scriptures say and I was not open to correction or open to questioning my own position in light of those questions and my answers (or lack of answers) in light of some "new piece of evidence" placed before me, then I would not be where I am today, which is in a very different place from where I was a few years ago at BT (which you already know).

So I hope that you will answer the questions that I ask you, even as I try to answer the ones that you ask me. :thumbsup:

thanks Chrissie,

my questions directed to you are to help me not only understand your belief, but to help me formulate mine.  As I had stated earlier, I don't have a firm belief anymore;  or maybe never did have a solid belief in the first place.  

What I find so amazing is all the different beliefs out there among UR believers; and the "I was quickened with this..... or HE told me this........." yet they are in opposition to what another person believes who was also "told this by HIM".  

I do believe that in the first century, for those in that culture, environment and covenant; that Paul, James etc all knew what was ABOUT to happen.  I see no reason why we aren't in the same situation as them, unless something has happened since then.  And imo it has, a change in covenant has taken place; and like you said; we are all in the process of waking up to our true nature.    

How this all applies to today, is open to much interpretation imo;

I am hesitant to share too much what I believe here at this forum, as in the past; some posters (not you) imo have been sarcastic, personal, and with where I am at in my walk; am not willing to expose myself that much;

or I perceive some to say; if you don't see it all as "spiritual", or don't "speak in tongues", etc., that one is immature in their walk.  Yet i'm not even really sure what "spiritual" means.  Like i've pointed to, i think a literal event can result in spiritual or inner changes.  

blessings.

[Molly]

But does that shadow pertain to Christ the man 2000 years ago, or does it pertain BOTH to him and to those who are IN him as well?

Yes.  This is why Adam is the lamb slain from the foundation [disruption] of the world.  (Nobody agrees with me, don't worry).



Matthew 25:40
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

[Seth]

But does that shadow pertain to Christ the man 2000 years ago, or does it pertain BOTH to him and to those who are IN him as well?

Yes.  This is why Adam is the lamb slain from the foundation [disruption] of the world.  (Nobody agrees with me, don't worry).



Matthew 25:40
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

I agree with you, at least in how I understand Adam...which may be different from you. Nevertheless I agree with the statement. I see Adam as much of a type and shadow of Christ as Israel, the lambs, Adam, the promised land, the water from the rock, the staff, the tabernacle etc etc etc.

[Zeek]

http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php

now working for me.

[rosered]

http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php

now working for me.

worked good for me too Zeek  :icon_flower:
  and I love how well  you and Chrissie are flowing and others adding as well 
  I already know some of this  stuff , but the'' connections'' are becoming clearer  Praise God !

and I do feel Blessed to be here  right now

  love to all   :HeartThrob: rose

[gregoryfl]

One thing that I started to realize about the law and the prophets being "fulfilled" was something that stopped me from becoming "preterist" in the sense of "all scripture being fulfilled" 2000 years ago. The thing I started to realize can be explained in the shadow of the slain lamb.

We know that the lambs slain by the Israelites of past were symbolic of the man who would be led like a lamb to the slaughter. But does that shadow pertain to Christ the man 2000 years ago, or does it pertain BOTH to him and to those who are IN him as well? I think the latter. I think the Law and the Prophets are being fulfilled not just 2000 years ago, but daily in all who are buried by baptism INTO the death that the slain lambs fortold and were meant to be fulfilled.

Hey Seth,

I agree as well that it includes us in him as well as he himself. My question to you is, do you see this scripturally as something that takes place over time, or as something that occurred when Jesus died on the cross? In other words, were we in him being buried by baptism into his death when he was, or is it something you see continuing on a day to day basis as each comes to faith in him, that at THAT time they are buried by baptism into his death only then?

Ron

[Seth]

One thing that I started to realize about the law and the prophets being "fulfilled" was something that stopped me from becoming "preterist" in the sense of "all scripture being fulfilled" 2000 years ago. The thing I started to realize can be explained in the shadow of the slain lamb.

We know that the lambs slain by the Israelites of past were symbolic of the man who would be led like a lamb to the slaughter. But does that shadow pertain to Christ the man 2000 years ago, or does it pertain BOTH to him and to those who are IN him as well? I think the latter. I think the Law and the Prophets are being fulfilled not just 2000 years ago, but daily in all who are buried by baptism INTO the death that the slain lambs fortold and were meant to be fulfilled.

Hey Seth,

I agree as well that it includes us in him as well as he himself. My question to you is, do you see this scripturally as something that takes place over time, or as something that occurred when Jesus died on the cross? In other words, were we in him being buried by baptism into his death when he was, or is it something you see continuing on a day to day basis as each comes to faith in him, that at THAT time they are buried by baptism into his death only then?

Ron

I believe it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs upon belief in the truth and humilty (as I know God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud). That grace is intended to "turn away ungodliness" in us in our walk, as it will be when all Israel is saved. The reception of the Holy Spirit occurred not upon Christ's death but according to his resurrected Life, which is what happened on Pentacost.

The big question here, as I am seeing so far from the Presence.tv article is whether or not sin is taken away positionally, or through the act of walking according to the Spirit. I believe it is the latter. That is why there is still ungodliness to turn away in the world and that is why Paul connects the "turning away of ungodliness" with the salvation of all Israel.

I think a misstep is made when we think that prophecy concerns the end of the Old Covenent, and we stop there. The end of the Old Covenant is incidental, being part but not the full point of prophecy. The Promise of the Holy Spirit, and the giving of that gift to the Gentiles and a remnant of Jews is the point of OT prophecy, and the formation of the New Jerusalem (the Bride and Body) due to that Spirit.

That is why Paul says that "he that is dead is justified of sin" in relation to the "baptism into the death of Christ" and "walking in newness of life."

[Seth]

http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php

now working for me.

Hi Zeek,
Having read the article, I saw this which seems to be at the crux of the argument:

"The dead" in 1 Corinthians 15:12 refers to Israel under the Law.  Likewise, "the dead" in Romans 11:15 refers to Israel under the Law.  Therefore, showing the consequences of the Gentiles' denial of Israel's resurrection, Paul follows the same logic in 1Corinthians 15 as he does in Romans 11—you Gentiles do not bear the root, but the root bears you. Christ came to fulfill Israel's promises, but if there is no resurrection of the dead (Israel), then Christ (Israel's covenant representative) is not risen, and if Christ is not risen, you (Gentiles) are still in your sins (cf. verses 1Cor. 15:12-17)."

I think the Scripture is pretty clear that, apart from the issue of mortality, "the dead" are those who walk in sin, right? And the Law was made to reveal a condition of slavery to sin to the Law followers. So the "dead being raised" would not refer to Israel, but to ANYONE who walks in newness of life apart from death in sin.

Romans 6:1-9 aptly describes the resurrection of the dead in likeness, which I do not see as a statement of positional resurrection of Israel according to the flesh. Furthermore, a ressurection to life is inextricably linked to "walking in newness of life" which cannot be said for both Jews and Gentiles according to the flesh. Therefore, the idea that all Israel has already been saved from sin does not appear accurate, both Scripturally and according to common sense.

What is the wages of sin. DEATH. Therefore if people are still sinning, what are they earning? DEATH. Therefore if people are still in a state of slavery to sin, then they are not raised from the dead, meaning that both the "fullness of the Gentiles" and the subsequent "all Israel shall be saved" is yet to come until the end when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death."

Here is another issue I have:

Here is the basic problem. The eschatology found in the New Testament emerges from the Old Testament. The setting of its fulfillment is the closing period (the last days) of fleshly (Old Covenant) Israel.  One could rightly say that the New Testament has no eschatology of its own because eschatology pertains to the end of the Old Covenant, not to the end of the New.

I think it is a mistake to to say that "The eschatology found in the New Testament emerges from the Old Testament. the setting of its fullfillment is the closing period of the fleshy Israel." That is where I think Preterism stumbles. The reason is what I stated before. The Law and the Prophets do not concern themselves with ONLY with the closing of the OLD but with the BEGINNING of the NEW. The closing down of the old system is not the main point of prophecy, it is only part of prophecy. The main point of prophecy is the creation of the church through the promises to Abraham delivered to believers: The Promise of The Spirit. Therefore, the Law and the Prophets is still being fulfilled in Christ and will continue as that promise is continually delivered to anyone who believes.

I have an alternate view of the author's interpretation of Hosea if you are interested, which is based on the fact that (paraphrase) "he is not a jew according to circumcision of the flesh but of the heart by the Spirit."

http://mercifultruth.com/links-promisedland.htm

[Chris]

http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php

now working for me.

Interesting! Some things I agree with and others I don't and still others that I am not sure about so would like to re-read and look up the additional references. I'd also like to check out some of their other articles as I am still not sure I understand the 70AD position and I really would like to understand it better. Thanks for the link.  :thumbsup:

[Chris]

If we are to look upon that which IS NOT SEEN (which is eternal/aionios) rather than upon those things which ARE SEEN (which are temporal / shadows of spiritual realities), "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" in order to "rightly divided the word of truth", then it seems to me that there is much more to "the heavens" and "the earth" than what we call "heaven" and "earth" after a carnal truth. So is there also, then, more to "a new heaven and new earth" than to believe that this physical word will one day be destroyed and renewed.

It seems to me that God has already created a new heavens and a new earth and we are now, by the grace of God, to enter into THE THIRD HEAVEN, wherein lies THE TREE OF LIFE.

I believe you are right about the "new heaven and new earth." Here is an article about how "heaven and earth" was a relationship between God and Israel, and as we know, there is a new Israel created through Christ's body and resurrection. That would be a "new heaven and new earth" (ie new relationship between God and Israel. It's worth a read.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm

Not finished reading this article (just got started, as a matter of fact, so not that far into it) but noticed this statement that might help me put 70AD into perspective as well:

"...all prophecies relating to Israel fulfilled by 70 A.D."

Have to run out (again) so don't have time to finish the whole thing right now, but will get back to later this evening or tomorrow. Thanks!!

I never made the connection with "Seth" and "mercifultruth" until you posted that link. I think I corresponded with you through your website a couple of times (if that is your website) some time back. I even have a link to it on my MySpace and MyChurch pages.  :thumbsup:

[Seth]

Yup that's me. Greetings.

[Tim B]

http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php

now working for me.

Hi Zeek,
Having read the article, I saw this which seems to be at the crux of the argument:

"The dead" in 1 Corinthians 15:12 refers to Israel under the Law.  Likewise, "the dead" in Romans 11:15 refers to Israel under the Law.  Therefore, showing the consequences of the Gentiles' denial of Israel's resurrection, Paul follows the same logic in 1Corinthians 15 as he does in Romans 11—you Gentiles do not bear the root, but the root bears you. Christ came to fulfill Israel's promises, but if there is no resurrection of the dead (Israel), then Christ (Israel's covenant representative) is not risen, and if Christ is not risen, you (Gentiles) are still in your sins (cf. verses 1Cor. 15:12-17)."

I think the Scripture is pretty clear that, apart from the issue of mortality, "the dead" are those who walk in sin, right? And the Law was made to reveal a condition of slavery to sin to the Law followers. So the "dead being raised" would not refer to Israel, but to ANYONE who walks in newness of life apart from death in sin.

Romans 6:1-9 aptly describes the resurrection of the dead in likeness, which I do not see as a statement of positional resurrection of Israel according to the flesh. Furthermore, a ressurection to life is inextricably linked to "walking in newness of life" which cannot be said for both Jews and Gentiles according to the flesh. Therefore, the idea that all Israel has already been saved from sin does not appear accurate, both Scripturally and according to common sense.

What is the wages of sin. DEATH. Therefore if people are still sinning, what are they earning? DEATH. Therefore if people are still in a state of slavery to sin, then they are not raised from the dead, meaning that both the "fullness of the Gentiles" and the subsequent "all Israel shall be saved" is yet to come until the end when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death."

Here is another issue I have:

Here is the basic problem. The eschatology found in the New Testament emerges from the Old Testament. The setting of its fulfillment is the closing period (the last days) of fleshly (Old Covenant) Israel.  One could rightly say that the New Testament has no eschatology of its own because eschatology pertains to the end of the Old Covenant, not to the end of the New.

I think it is a mistake to to say that "The eschatology found in the New Testament emerges from the Old Testament. the setting of its fullfillment is the closing period of the fleshy Israel." That is where I think Preterism stumbles. The reason is what I stated before. The Law and the Prophets do not concern themselves with ONLY with the closing of the OLD but with the BEGINNING of the NEW. The closing down of the old system is not the main point of prophecy, it is only part of prophecy. The main point of prophecy is the creation of the church through the promises to Abraham delivered to believers: The Promise of The Spirit. Therefore, the Law and the Prophets is still being fulfilled in Christ and will continue as that promise is continually delivered to anyone who believes.

I have an alternate view of the author's interpretation of Hosea if you are interested, which is based on the fact that (paraphrase) "he is not a jew according to circumcision of the flesh but of the heart by the Spirit."

http://mercifultruth.com/links-promisedland.htm

Hey Seth!  :hithere:

I have this view, and I'm not sure if it's accurate, but it's a mixture of Preterism and ... something else. xD Basically, it's an option that makes a lot of sense to me. I view Preterism as a highly likely scenario, including the belief that Christ returned spiritually in 70 AD. This describes those being made alive in in 1 Cor. 15 at his come, that are his. But then, it goes onto say, "then comes the end" when Christ should be putting all enemies under his feet and destroying death and becoming "all in all". I hold it as extremely reasonable to say that while much of prophesy has already been fulfilled, God is still filling Himself through mankind (in this life or the next) to be all in all. All people are "saved". But only in the sense that their assurance has already been made, in Christ, and so when somebody accepts Christ they are "saved" in that they realize their salvation (in their being saved, or loosed from their isns). This isn't to say that we're all perfect yet, including those that believe they are saved. I mean, we still seem to be in sin, so I could easily see Christ still yet to do work in us. But the one thing that seems very real to me, is the idea that no matter who we are, whether believer or unbeliever, we will all completely come into the fullness of life in Christ, after we physically die and are raised in spirit. Now... this last part, I base mostly on NDEs, but I don't see any reason why they couldn't be real, nor that it should disagree with Christ destroying death and being all in all. I largely see humanity's sin linked with our physical nature, and so, a spiritual resurrection from the dead seems to be the most logical way for Christ to vivify us and make us alive in Him. In being raised alive spiritually, in Christ, we become perfect and complete in Him (something which wasn't formerly possible before he rose from the dead).

Anyway... just thought I'd share that/those thoughts. Hopefully they make some sort of sense. lol

[jabcat]

While perusing, I ran across this post on the 2nd death and LoF that I really liked.  It made about as much or more sense to me than any other explanations I've read.  You know how something just suddenly becomes life?

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3721.msg42923#msg42923

[peacemaker]

But the one thing that seems very real to me, is the idea that no matter who we are, whether believer or unbeliever, we will all completely come into the fullness of life in Christ, after we physically die and are raised in spirit.

It is a proven fact, that all human beings will eventually experience this phenomenon called death.
This flesh profits nothing, in and of, itself. Thus, at what point does the soul/body come alive?

If the Spirit quickens; giving life, is it on the third-day, after death?

I largely see humanity's sin linked with our physical nature, and so, a spiritual resurrection from the dead seems to be the most logical way for Christ to vivify us and make us alive in Him. In being raised alive spiritually, in Christ, we become perfect and complete in Him (something which wasn't formerly possible before he rose from the dead).

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (that of the flesh, itself), rather, having the faith of Christ toward God and the Resurrection.  :gthumbsup: 

The whole of humanity will comprehend the significance of the Resurrection, in the day of their judgment.
Which is now, in this life or later; upon death.

"All will come to the knowledge of the truth, each in their own era."

peacemaker