End times?

[gregoryfl]

Regarding this, is it possible for the written scriptures to still be relevant and fulfill it's purpose for being written even if it is all fulfilled in the historical sense? Or to put it another way, if it is fulfilled historically, does that make those writings now meaningless to anyone living after that?

Ron

[sheila]

   I need not fall to your 'INTERPRETATION" of

REVELATIONS,EITHER.BARRY

 it normally falls into four groups...[four corners of heaven and

 earth] INCLUDED IN THAT HOLY CITY


  1] preterists understand the book exclusively in terms of it's

first century setting, claiming that most of it's events have

already taken place

 2] Historicists take it as describing the long chain of events

from Patmos to the end of history

 3] Futurists place the book primarily in the end times

 4] Idealists veiw it as symbolic pictures of such timeless

truths as the victory of Good over Evil

 you have no authority to condemn those who do not hold to

your veiw of Revelations as a preterists.

 when you have spiritually slain those who here have another

veiwpoint, I ask, will you go on after the others.?

 the partial preterists ,perhaps?

 It matters not to me..that you judge me..it is of no

 consequence .

  what part of your message of unconditional love are you

desiring to show me? Is having a preterist veiw of Revelations

a requirement for this unconditional love you are showing to us?

 Let's see..I can have that unconditional love if I am an atheist

an unbeleiver, a muslim,jew  sinner,harlot...but not if I do not

agree with your preterist veiw?

 For if I continue to follow the Holy spirit,after knowing that all

are saved..I am nothing more than an egoist,trying to attain

something for myself[my own righteousness?]

 why are any of us here?

[Molly]

 
   2 Cor 1;9 indeed in our hearts we felt the sentence of death

But this happened that we might NOT rely on ourselves,but God

HE HAS delivered us from such a deadly peril....

 and HE WILL DELIVER US

 ON Him we have set our hope...

 THAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO DELIVER US

well, yes, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise, but you have to come to a point where you realize that--that you can't add an inch to your height--that it's too big for you to do it by yourself--that HE will do it if you just stand aside.

That's what faith is--putting the burden on his shoulders--


1Unless the LORD builds the house,
   those who build it labor in vain.


--Psa 127

[Barry DuPont]

Regarding this, is it possible for the written scriptures to still be relevant and fulfill it's purpose for being written even if it is all fulfilled in the historical sense? Or to put it another way, if it is fulfilled historically, does that make those writings now meaningless to anyone living after that?

Ron

We cannot have their salvation. Because they went from one age to the next.

That then becomes the relevancy to us. We don't need the then temporary doctrines of transition. We do however need to know love.

Also this affects how we view "hope". We get a lot of wrong ideas about what they really went though when we artificially extend the transition of the ages to our time and our experience. Wrong ideas about what it means to be a human. Wrong ideas about how we grow and mature. Wrong ideas about how we should see each other. And a lot of wrong ideas about binding doctrines on each other.

Also understanding the importance of accepting the historical paints a picture of God loving his creation and thus His continued agenda therein.
The implications are profound.

Blessings Barry

[Beloved Servant]

Dear Beloved, (and that you are)

In regards to my previous post about resurrection out of sin death, I was wondering what dieing daily and enemies within one's household had in common as a train of thought.

My apologies as I'm unable to connect the dot's.
I thought that maybe you considered me your enemy but that was only a fleeting thought that may be really way off base but being human I have those.

I hope that this doesn't put you on the spot, I'm just trying to comprehend your posts.

My concern is if I'm considered any one's enemy "here" I really need to vacate the premises.
If my challenge to the premise of some here that humanity is created corrupt, through the Father so that the Son has to fix it all is regarded as nothing but intolerable opposition then I don't really need to be here. Of that I'm sure.
Any member or any moderator or any administrator may PM me at any point and ask me to leave. And it will be done immediately.

This is the age of the Internet after all. Thank you Lord!

I for myself, I stand in God's love without condition for all. Unless someone shows me something to the contrary which is of substance that is where I will continue to reside.

What I'm interested in then is the view of what some here mean in regards to Christ being alive "yet I am dead", and what that means in regards to the resurrection. For the biblical futurist here, when resurrected is that you who are still dead and Christ alive and if so what does that mean exactly?   
Blessings Barry

Hi Barry,
While it has not been given me to teach, I can provide you with some of my teachers:
Preston Eby; Kingdom Bible Studies
Peter Demetris; Light of the City Ministries
Joyce Morris; Lord of Life Ministries
and
our own blessed, Cardinal.
Listen to her.

[Barry DuPont]

Thanks for the responce Beloved. I appreciate the effort.

With very few exceptions I've learned over the years to stick mostly with Jesus, Paul, John and a few others.

Blessings Barry

[jabcat]

 
   2 Cor 1;9 indeed in our hearts we felt the sentence of death

But this happened that we might NOT rely on ourselves,but God

HE HAS delivered us from such a deadly peril....

 and HE WILL DELIVER US

 ON Him we have set our hope...

 THAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO DELIVER US

well, yes, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise, but you have to come to a point where you realize that--that you can't add an inch to your height--that it's too big for you to do it by yourself--that HE will do it if you just stand aside.

That's what faith is--putting the burden on his shoulders--


1Unless the LORD builds the house,
   those who build it labor in vain.


--Psa 127

Amen to everything in this post, both Sheila's and Molly's.  I was just thinking on this today.  Some may remember this http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7040.msg79279#msg79279 (God takes good care of His artwork) from Thomas J. Kissinger.  I also discussed this with Gary the other day in one of our rare conversations - the idea that our working and "pressing in" is finding that place of rest and trust in Him, so that HE does HIS works THROUGH us.  I so often get in the way, struggling, trying to "work for the Lord".  I remember Molly you mentioning the passage "take my yoke upon you...it is easy...I will give you rest".  Feel I must continue to offer the disclaimer, I am NOT talking about living in sin and disobedience so that "grace may more abound...God forbid"...I am talking about a place of surrender and obedience to whatever HE does...I'm still pushing to get to that place.  Every now and then I find it a little bit, and it's a blessed hiding place, a cleft in the Rock.  

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and THAT not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"...  Eph. 2:8

[Barry DuPont]

 
    2 Cor 1;9 indeed in our hearts we felt the sentence of death

But this happened that we might NOT rely on ourselves,but God

HE HAS delivered us from such a deadly peril....

  and HE WILL DELIVER US

  ON Him we have set our hope...

  THAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO DELIVER US

well, yes, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise, but you have to come to a point where you realize that--that you can't add an inch to your height--that it's too big for you to do it by yourself--that HE will do it if you just stand aside.

That's what faith is--putting the burden on his shoulders--


1Unless the LORD builds the house,
   those who build it labor in vain.


--Psa 127

Amen to everything in this post, both Sheila's and Molly's.  I was just thinking on this today.  Some may remember this http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7040.msg79279#msg79279 (God takes good care of His artwork) from Thomas J. Kissinger.  I also discussed this with Gary the other day in one of our rare conversations - the idea that our working and "pressing in" is finding that place of rest and trust in Him, so that HE does HIS works THROUGH us.  I so often get in the way, struggling, trying to "work for the Lord".  I remember Molly you mentioning the passage "take my yoke upon you...it is easy...I will give you rest".  Feel I must continue to offer the disclaimer, I am NOT talking about living in sin and disobedience so that "grace may more abound...God forbid"...I am talking about a place of surrender and obedience to whatever HE does...I'm still pushing to get to that place.  Every now and then I find it a little bit, and it's a blessed hiding place, a cleft in the Rock. 

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and THAT not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"...  Eph. 2:8

Great post.
Love does all that.
Insecurity is the problem so to speak. It means that someone has something to prove.
Having something to prove makes us dangerous, obliging and condemning. It promotes a mentality of placing burdens on others where we think we have some accomplishments to boast about.   
When the tempter tempted Jesus it was "if you are the Son of God". IE, prove it to yourself.
This is what the Law did and what the law between the ears did for the Gentiles. When under law there is always something to prove because there is insecurity. The fear of not measuring up so to speak.

Love without condition is where transformation and growth comes naturally and continually. Where a new identity is formed as a one simply loved. Where God has grasped us and not where we must somehow grasp God.

JMO
Barry

[Molly]

It promotes a mentality of placing burdens on others where we think we have some accomplishments to boast about.   
When the tempter tempted Jesus it was "if you are the Son of God". IE, prove it to yourself

At the end they mocked him--

67Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, 68saying, "Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?"

--Mat 26



This hurts me so much that I can barely process it.  As if he couldn't have flattened them right then and there!  The King of glory... being treated like this.....


...who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

--Heb 12



9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

--Heb 6

[HartleyDamboiseII]

 :HeartThrob:Barry: :dsunny: I wish I could say that I am proud of you, but "some" may think I am sinning, wish I could say, right on, and "some" may think I am a hippy, wish I could say, I Love all the words you share with me, but "some" may say that sounds gay, wish I could say, bravo ! , and "some" would interept :Book: that to mean something wrong too.  :flirt:

Thank You YOU give me strength  :rocker :ty:

Lee Damboise II

[jabcat]

Are you saying there's something wrong with being a hippy?   :laughing7:  That's pretty heavy, man.

[reFORMer]

Ousley "Purple Haze"
Frisco/Berkely
late 60's

I was the prancing pedigreed dog
Looking in the closed-on-Sunday shop windows

lost

weed in my pipe
weedy vacant lot

the planting of the Lord
hadn't surfaced in me
yet

[reFORMer]

To me, preterism, historicism and futurism are somewhat literal interpretations because they look for something that shows up physically on the world stage.  When corrected they all have some validity; but, because of where they're occuring, they are outer court, under the sun, natural understandings.  The symbolic uses of Scripture, of which there are several, are more fruitfull for our relationship with God and each other.  Even when something was, is or will be physically portrayed, like the mountains of Sinai or Zion, or the persons Hagar or Sarah, that does not end their meaning, as Paul indicated by His use of them for matters with which we all have to do.

Galatians 4:21-5:1 (CLT)...
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one out of the maid and one out of the free womam.
23 But the one, indeed, out of the maid is begotten according to flesh, yet the one out of the free woman through the promise:
24 which is allegorizing, for these women are two covenants; one, indeed, from mount Sinai, generating into slavery, which is Hagar.
25 Yet Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia; it is in line with the Jerusalem which now is, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 Yet the Jerusalem above is free, who is mother of us all.
27 For it is written, "Be glad, barren one, who art not bringing forth! Burst forth and implore, thou who art not travailing! For many are the children of the desolate, Rather than of her who has the husband."
28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now.
30 But what is the scripture saying? Cast out this maid and her son, for by no means shall the son of the maid be enjoying the allotment with the son of the free woman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman.
5:1 For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery.

The difficulty I have with the phrase "unconditional love" is what so many mean by it.  By "unconditional" they intend that sin doesn't matter.  Look at God's Law-word on love here:
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (CLT)...
4 Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up,
5 is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil,
6 is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth,
7 is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all.
Considering verse 6, it seems that love would get involved with correcting people who are being cut-off from the blessings of God because of sin.  We would be, "Not rejoicing in injustice."  The Spirit would grieve over their wrong doing.  Justice (or, "judgement" AV) is setting things right.  When we go about correcting someone we love who is not doing what is right we appeal to God as our authority to define what is just or unjust.  He gave us an objective witness in the written Word of Scripture establishing righteous judgement according to the truth.  We don't have to re-invent the wheel, so to speak.  The Holy Scriptures already exist.  But if we say only the spirit within or only love is our authority, we may well be setting up another kingdom against that of Christ and His jewels.

[sparrow]

:HeartThrob:Barry: :dsunny: I wish I could say that I am proud of you, but "some" may think I am sinning, wish I could say, right on, and "some" may think I am a hippy, wish I could say, I Love all the words you share with me, but "some" may say that sounds gay, wish I could say, bravo ! , and "some" would interept :Book: that to mean something wrong too.  :flirt:

Thank You YOU give me strength  :rocker :ty:

Lee Damboise II

Hey Lee... You make me smile.
Nice post, bro.
sparrow

[Barry DuPont]

To me, preterism, historicism and futurism are somewhat literal interpretations because they look for something that shows up physically on the world stage.  When corrected they all have some validity; but, because of where they're occuring, they are outer court, under the sun, natural understandings.  The symbolic uses of Scripture, of which there are several, are more fruitfull for our relationship with God and each other.  Even when something was, is or will be physically portrayed, like the mountains of Sinai or Zion, or the persons Hagar or Sarah, that does not end their meaning, as Paul indicated by His use of them for matters with which we all have to do.

Galatians 4:21-5:1 (CLT)...
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one out of the maid and one out of the free womam.
23 But the one, indeed, out of the maid is begotten according to flesh, yet the one out of the free woman through the promise:
24 which is allegorizing, for these women are two covenants; one, indeed, from mount Sinai, generating into slavery, which is Hagar.
25 Yet Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia; it is in line with the Jerusalem which now is, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 Yet the Jerusalem above is free, who is mother of us all.
27 For it is written, "Be glad, barren one, who art not bringing forth! Burst forth and implore, thou who art not travailing! For many are the children of the desolate, Rather than of her who has the husband."
28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now.
30 But what is the scripture saying? Cast out this maid and her son, for by no means shall the son of the maid be enjoying the allotment with the son of the free woman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman.
5:1 For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery.

The difficulty I have with the phrase "unconditional love" is what so many mean by it.  By "unconditional" they intend that sin doesn't matter.  Look at God's Law-word on love here:
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (CLT)...
4 Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up,
5 is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil,
6 is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth,
7 is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all.
Considering verse 6, it seems that love would get involved with correcting people who are being cut-off from the blessings of God because of sin.  We would be, "Not rejoicing in injustice."  The Spirit would grieve over their wrong doing.  Justice (or, "judgement" AV) is setting things right.  When we go about correcting someone we love who is not doing what is right we appeal to God as our authority to define what is just or unjust.  He gave us an objective witness in the written Word of Scripture establishing righteous judgement according to the truth.  We don't have to re-invent the wheel, so to speak.  The Holy Scriptures already exist.  But if we say only the spirit within or only love is our authority, we may well be setting up another kingdom against that of Christ and His jewels.

Hbr 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy of holies;  
Hbr 9:4 having a golden altar of incense, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] a golden pot holding the manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;  
Hbr 9:5 and above it cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy-seat; of which things we cannot now speak severally.  
Hbr 9:6 Now these things having been thus prepared, the priests go in continually into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services;  
Hbr 9:7 but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people:  
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;  
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,  


Hbr 10:20   By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;  
Hbr 10:21   And [having] an high priest over the house of God;  
Hbr 10:22   Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hbr 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. {In conscience}
Hbr 10:2   For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.  

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.  
Rev 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.  

Sin conscience is an outer court doctrine.
The fulfillment of all things written is an inner court teaching.

The outer was done away with in AD 70!
Thus taken away covenantally!

Now, who said anything about love enjoying injustice?

What love without condition means is that the libility of our faults and failings is not separation. He has thus made an "end of sins" and has finished the transgression.

"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"

Blessings Barry

[peacemaker]

What love without condition means is that the libility of our faults and failings is not separation. He has thus made an "end of sins" and has finished the transgression.

"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"

It is not love, but the lack of love which is blind.
Love is always inspired by love, not hate or separation.
And you're not the only one who feels this way.

peacemaker

[HartleyDamboiseII]

 :goodpost: :drunken_smilie:   Hay dude,Barry: It is strange to me that when I read other peoples writings or "post", I get this strange feeling that it "IS" of God... so many religions have warned me not to read other peoples works, or words, because all you need is the bible, "of course they want you to hear their way" of the bible.

I have ALL WAYS CHECKED EVERY VERSE IN OTHER PEOPLES WRITINGS or booklets, and when I contunely get the feeling that it is of God, then I make the choice if I am going to read more.

Even people on this Board, I let some talk, and I hear some, and I learn from some.  Barry, you ARE a gifted writer, because your Thoughts are not scattered and confusing, you Make your subject have beginning middle and end, which makes it stick to the mind...        Thanks  Lee Damboise II

[Barry DuPont]

What love without condition means is that the libility of our faults and failings is not separation. He has thus made an "end of sins" and has finished the transgression.

"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"

It is not love, but the lack of love which is blind.
Love is always inspired by love, not hate or separation.
And you're not the only one who feels this way.

peacemaker

Interesting observation imo Peacemaker. Really something to think about.

Just thinking:
Growing in love seems to be to some extent its own conscious dwelling. Meaning I guess that knowing that love is the "growing place". That understanding is not the end of growth but the understanding of it.
Coming to that reference may have some blocks in front of it. Some close-eyed-ness.

The interesting thing is how one relates then to what they see as close-eyed-ness. Perhaps then as a way of expressing such a dwelling: A working mindset of oneness irregardless of visible participation in that understanding, for love loves anyway, while simultaneously desiring all to see it and be there.

So that it does not itself become a new elitism but rather just a seeing and a living. For "Love is always inspired by love, not hate or separation."  
To extrapolate to the ongoing application, "harmless as doves but not naive".

JMO
Barry

[Barry DuPont]

:goodpost: :drunken_smilie:   Hay dude,Barry: It is strange to me that when I read other peoples writings or "post", I get this strange feeling that it "IS" of God... so many religions have warned me not to read other peoples works, or words, because all you need is the bible, "of course they want you to hear their way" of the bible.

I have ALL WAYS CHECKED EVERY VERSE IN OTHER PEOPLES WRITINGS or booklets, and when I contunely get the feeling that it is of God, then I make the choice if I am going to read more.

Even people on this Board, I let some talk, and I hear some, and I learn from some.  Barry, you ARE a gifted writer, because your Thoughts are not scattered and confusing, you Make your subject have beginning middle and end, which makes it stick to the mind...        Thanks  Lee Damboise II

I hear you Lee.
2Cr 1:13 NKJV For we are not writing any other things to you than what you read or understand. Now I trust you will understand, even to the end 

1Th 5:27   I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren. 

1Th 5:20   Despise not prophesyings. 
1Th 5:21   Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 

We all do our thing bro as gifts go and often mine are lacking, but it is love that counts. Love is the great equalizer. Value is a gift of God's love.
Blessings to you.
Barry

[Molly]

Hbr 10:2   For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 

"conscience"

G4893
συνείδησις
suneidēsis
soon-i'-day-sis
From a prolonged form of G4894; co-perception, that is, moral consciousness: - conscience.


G4894
συνείδω
suneidō
soon-i'-do
From G4862 and G1492; to see completely; used (like its primary) only in two past tenses, respectively meaning to understand or become aware, and to be conscious or (clandestinely) informed of: - consider, know, be privy, be ware of.



I'm wondering what this means.  Does it mean if the law had been perfect, they would forget their own sins?  Or they would be purged and stop sinning?  Does it mean when they are perfected by grace that they sin no more?  Does it mean even though they sin under grace, they are no longer conscious of their sin?

We have to be careful, here, because a person who sins with no conscience is considered a psychopath  lol.

[Barry DuPont]

Hbr 10:2   For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 

"conscience"

G4893
συνείδησις
suneidēsis
soon-i'-day-sis
From a prolonged form of G4894; co-perception, that is, moral consciousness: - conscience.


G4894
συνείδω
suneidō
soon-i'-do
From G4862 and G1492; to see completely; used (like its primary) only in two past tenses, respectively meaning to understand or become aware, and to be conscious or (clandestinely) informed of: - consider, know, be privy, be ware of.



I'm wondering what this means.  Does it mean if the law had been perfect, they would forget their own sins?  Or they would be purged and stop sinning?  Does it mean when they are perfected by grace that they sin no more?  Does it mean even though they sin under grace, they are no longer conscious of their sin?

We have to be careful, here, because a person who sins with no conscience is considered a psychopath  lol.

Wow, great post Molly!

Consider Adam!
Was Adam so innocent that he had diapers? LOL
Was he so ignorant as to not know the difference between disagreeing with Eve about something and dragging her around by her hair?
Adam had work to do, responsibilities and relationship.
Yet sin (conscience) entered the world when he "digested" or "consumed" the knowledge of good and evil. Attainment then entered into the picture.

Does that help a bit when we frame it from beginning to end? It does for me.

Yes if an animal sacrifice was truly effective then they would have had no more sin conscience.

Consider the warning of the Hebrew writer to his audience:

Hbr 10:25   Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together {out of the old and into the new}, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 
Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully {IE continue in sin conscience under animal sacrifices} after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins {IE there is not going to be another sacrifice for sins}, 
Hbr 10:27   But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 

So if they did this:

Hbr 2:2   For if the word spoken by angels {the law} was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 
Hbr 2:3   How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

So if they neglected in their conscience so great a salvation by neglecting the sin sacrifice of Christ wherein there was not going to another they were then remaining in sin conscience willfully and would then die the second death in conscience when they felt abandoned and forsaken by God when their city and temple were being taken away. 

It was all about the consience under law. 
Blessings Barry

[sheila]

 CONSIDER EVE!

  How the serpent seduced her away from God's commandment

  [this is MY SON,LISTEN TO HIM/RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT]

   the serpent [a seducer] appeared to have the best interest

  of Eve in mind...for by reaching out and partaking of that fruit

  [which appeared 'good'] she would be just like GOD!

  knowing good and evil.

  actually the seducing spirit did not have any love for Eve..

  just like men seduce women to use their flesh for their own

carnal desires...so did this seducing spirit...to bring forth

in her flesh..seed of his "own" kind.

   If you follow His Holy spirit..you will have no 'knowledge' of

  error...for it will lead you into all truth...and declare to you the

things pertaining to Christ. It will not speak of it's own accord


   accord- to make persons agree, to bring into agreement,

to grant as suitable or proper


  Now, you are betrothed to Christ

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:

[reFORMer]

The difficulty I have with the phrase "unconditional love" is what so many mean by it.  By "unconditional" they intend that sin doesn't matter.  Look at God's Law-word on love here:
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (CLT)...
4 Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up,
5 is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil,
6 is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth,
7 is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all.
Considering verse 6, it seems that love would get involved with correcting people who are being cut-off from the blessings of God because of sin.  We would be, "Not rejoicing in injustice."  The Spirit would grieve over their wrong doing.  Justice (or, "judgment" AV) is setting things right.  When we go about correcting someone we love who is not doing what is right we appeal to God as our authority to define what is just or unjust.  He gave us an objective witness in the written Word of Scripture establishing righteous judgment according to the truth.  We don't have to re-invent the wheel, so to speak.  The Holy Scriptures already exist.  But if we say only the spirit within or only love is our authority, we may well be setting up another kingdom against that of Christ and His jewels.

Sin conscience is an outer court doctrine.
The fulfillment of all things written is an inner court teaching.

The outer was done away with in AD 70!
Thus taken away covenantally!

Now, who said anything about love enjoying injustice?

What love without condition means is that the liability of our faults and failings is not separation. He has thus made an "end of sins" and has finished the transgression.

"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"

Blessings Barry

Whatever the immortal Jesus ascended up into, He was able to send forth His Spirit into those who believe on Him.  Next will be the revelation of what has been hidden from the world withing the saints.  While writing Scripture after the resurrection of Jesus and after the ascension of Christ, and after receiving the gift of the same Holy Spirit that had begun to be poured out that momentous Day of Pentecost, Paul speaks in his letter to the Philippians of, "...attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead."  (Php 3:11, CLT)  He immediately continues, repeatedly denying he had entered into that state, probably intending the lack of comprehension of it as well:  "Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus.  Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped..." (vss.12-13)  Today we also can say with him, while I have not obtained "body salvation" and am not finished, having gone on into sinless perfection, yet, "...toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus." (vs.14)

To say that in the state of deathless incorruption we have no more awareness of sin is one thing.  For someone to assert they have attained to it, particularly by a sort of gnostic legerdemain is another.  As valuable as a balanced discussion about not being "sin conscious" is for the earnest follower of Jesus, to be summoned into another dimension "upon-high" concerns us constitutionally as a completely other order of being.  This is so very obvious it tempts me to in turns ridicule then pity someone who insists otherwise.  But to go on to propose everybody else is already resurrected and sinless too, they just haven't admitted it yet, makes me wonder if you are helpable.

I don't know if you've heard the story of a psychiatrist who was trying to help a man who believed he was dead.  He asked him if dead men bleed.  The patient answered, "No, dead men don't bleed."  Then the Doctor pricked the fellow's thumb, making it bleed.  Whereupon the man exclaimed, "My God!  Dead men do bleed!"

Though I somewhat accept all the traditional stances of interpretation, to some labelers I would at least be a partial preterist.  To me, your propositions label you a "fool preterist."  If I misunderstand your doctrine please feel free to correct me.  Anyway, you don't seem to be wanting much help, only to teach this supposed revelation of the way things really are that convince me you not only don't know the way things really are, but you don't seem to understand what to expect in your relationship with God.  The Biblical definition of the states you propose everybody has already entered into would mean we all can walk on water and turn stones into bread, more precisely, to turn nothing into bread.  To say it is only a matter of putting our minds into the correct pose is to dissimulate on everybody's ignorance concerning physical immortality.  Oh, it is something we must do, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality." (1 Co 15:53, CLT)  Yet it is something we cannot do, but must be done by our precious Savior, Who Himself similarly described, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, The Son can not be doing anything of Himself if it is not what He should be observing the Father doing..." (Jn 5:19, CLT)

We are still inhabiting the carcases inherited in our birth into the world as offspring of the soilish first man .  They must be changed.  We have a metamorphosis to undergo.  We cannot elevate the foretastes we have of that great harpazo to come as proof it already has come.  The world of men must become dominated by what really is another specie, even though it emerges out of Adamic humans.  While we already, "...are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones," (Ep 5:30, AV) there must come about the manifestation of "the second Man [Who] is the Lord out of heaven," (loc.sit., 1 Co 15:47, CLT) and, that manifestation must be the government over all peoples.  The kingdoms of this world must become the kingdom of our God and of His Christ (of Whom we are members.)

An example of the problem with attempting to preempt God's Law Word by pleaing "unconditional love" is some renters who haven't payed the rent because they think they should spend the money on a better Christmas for their children they love.  They claim that it's OK, that we are friends and that I love them so much I wouldn't make them leave their home that they love.  Though I've hinted, I haven't directly told them that my friends participate with me in what deeply interests me (which is the things of God.)  They only come over to when they have a need or want some money, even though I'm open and pursuing involvement in spiritual things, my words concerning they edge away from and leave as quickly as possible.  (Have you ever noticed that some of the people who need spiritual wisdom the most, often seem proud of how knowledgeable in spiritual things they are.)  I cannot afford to not get an income from the rental, though I would probably survive.  I have been homeless for months at a time.  A couple of occasions it was in the snow, once even for about 6 months.  What would love do?

What do you think the God Who is Love will do to get people, who are stubbornly disobedient, free from sin?  Some blasphemers, those who unharnessed words from their true meaning to claim the resurrection had already passed we are told to "shun," (2 Ti 2:16, AV) or avoid.  "Yet from profane prattlings stand aloof, for they will be progressing to more irreverence, and their word will spread as gangrene, of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus, who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some." (vss.16-18, CLT)  Our being seen to stand aloof from them may awaken them to their salvation.  For specially the novices in the faith it is for their protection from having their faith destroyed

Before the Apostle deals with the Ecclesia at Corinth concerning their complicity in the iniquity they'd kept among themselves without judging, "...that there is prostitution among you, and such prostitution (which is not even named among the nations), so that someone has his father's wife," (1 Co 5:1, CLT) he discusses their "high and mighty" attitude.  He asks a question everyone should have written in big letters on their T-shirt:  "...and what have you that you did not receive? now if thou did receive it, why do you glory, as if you had not received it?" (1 Co 4:7)  He points out that reigning in the world by the power of God was not yet manifested.  The saints were not then and are not yet "reigning in glory" as the prophets say must come.  Paul mocks their pretensions a bit and remarks, "...would that you surely reign, that we also should be reigning together with you!" (1 Co 4:8, CLT)  Remember this was after Jesus' resurrection from the dead out of a grave, His ascension into glory, and sending forth of God's Spirit into our hearts.  Paul, with fatherly concern for their development share with them what it is like for him while he writes to them the Oracles of God.  "To this moment, we are hungry, thirsty, poorly dressed, roughly treated, and homeless.  We wear ourselves out doing physical labor. When people verbally abuse us, we bless them. When people persecute us, we endure it.  When our reputations are attacked, we remain courteous. Right now we have become garbage in the eyes of the world and trash in the sight of all people." (1 Co 4:11-13, GW)  But he goes on to bring out the truth of the kingdom being present within us, even more abundantly with those more mature, if not yet ruling over all in the world:

1 Corinthians 4:19-22 (CLT)...
19 Yet I shall be coming to you swiftly, if ever the Lord should be willing, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power.
20 For not in word is the kingdom of God, but in power.
21 What are you wanting? With a rod may I be coming to you, or in love and a spirit of meekness?

This is to what I would appeal to you to consider, words understood by the mind is not of what the kingdom of God consists.  It is in power.  It is the place of  God's Special Emissaries (apostles) and prophets, sometimes even the least of His brothers, to represent the kingdom of love through the use of the power of God to correct those straying for their building up.  If chastening was still an option at this late date, what does that say of the theory to not be conscious of sin?  I believe such judgments should still operate in the gatherings of the Ecclesia.  What powers of the age to come do you demonstrate to confirm your word?

[Cardinal]

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