End times?

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Also, I %100 do not agree with all that Knoch Teaches, for one I will never agree with HIS thinking is his thinking on the rapture system he puts forward in his book, The Gospel of Our Salvation.

Which persents a major problem in the Spirit that dwells in me.

[Livelystone]

Problem with what is quoted from Reformer post is the new nature is Christ does not ever sin, no if ands or buts about it........ and any doctrine that teaches otherwise is $%^&*

When Jesus said there were two men in a bed (the heart where one is to be at rest) those two are the only two men ever created and they are Adam and Christ....... one is acceptable and one is not

For any of you who might want to advocate that the new man within you can sin I would strongly suggest you go study up on the teaching of Jesus for when an unclean spirit gets the boot from the heart of a newborn babe of Jesus Christ but then returns. (Mat 12, Luke 11)

Christ is a seed that will not increase its size at all let alone into the full statue of the tree of life that is Christ Jesus from anything else but by "mana from heaven" that is the daily bread that we are taught to pray for while we ARE ALL still on our wilderness journey where the old man is to die.

When that seed that is Christ becomes bigger and more powerful than the tree of knowledge (the two men in a bed within us) that we have all become despite whether that knowledge is good or evil then and only then will a mature Christ rule in and from our hearts 24/7

One thing that will cause the seed of Christ to remain nothing more than a seed within us is all the man made garbage that is taught the vast majority of the time .............. and that is somethingh you can bet the farm on.

Blessings

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

reFormer:
I do not except the rebuilding of the WALL of partition EITHER. 

A.E. Knock, Founder and absolute German Maker of the Concordant Literal Version of the Bible, and he teaches IN DEPTH  knowledge of the two systems and how they relate to mankind today, but the two ARE ONE NOW, although knowing what words mean, just gives understanding to the LEARNER , "NOT" septeration ...

You use the nasty word often, dispensationalism: you might as well call me a F-en afro-amercian ,  But don't be bothered, I am not offended by any persons lack of knowledge in understanding God's word.

I consider A. E. Knoch to be in my choice of top ten Christians of the 20th Century.  Nevertheless, I don't agree with his extreme racial dispensationalism (ie., dipSinsationalism.)  He was a friend of E. W. Bullinger in the early days of his work with Scripture.  Bullinger is known as a hyper-dispensationalist.  It seems Knoch could be labeled the same.  I'm open to being proven wrong.  I do have an understanding of the dispensational doctrine; but, in no way would I equate that with, "...knowledge of understanding of God's word," if that is what you meant by that phrase.  I'm not sure what you mean by not accepting the rebuilding of the wall of partition, which is what modern dispensationalism does.  For instance, John Hagee definitely teaches two ways of salvation:  the Mosaic Covenant for today's Jews and Jesus as Messiah to the Gentile Church.

              Knowledge taught by the Concordant Literal Version IS GOOD knowledge...

And no, I don't like that word because of what it "alledgelly means to you. I am sorry if those kinds of people hurt you in any way.

To insult my presentation of Bible facts by saying it must be the result of personal embitteredness on my part greatly underestimates the reality of the situation.  The political trends in the USA that follow the popular media, both written (newspapers and magazines) as well as visual forms (television and movies) are moving into a position to persecute the Church.  This is the specific result of believers abandoning the civil sphere of life to the devil and his minions because of the doctrinal influence of dispensationalism.  Hal Lindsey in The Road to Holocaust, which he wrote following The Late Great Planet Earth, labors to prove that applying the value system taught in God's Law Word to our legislative process would bring about another holocaust like occured in Germany.  Understand, if you are seeking to have a culture founded in God's word Hal Lindsey says you are trying to do what the Nazis did.  If you don't know what a false teacher is I give you Hal Linsey as a contemporary example.  Against the Scripture, against those whose wisdom is from God, against Christ, a liar fomenting the persecution of the Church...though one among many, he's an unfortunate deceiver of those who might otherwise be followers of Jesus.  I could list names and quotations of many in our day who are similar posers who teach from this relatively new tradition rather than by revelation from the Holy Spirit.

But Knowledge WILL SET YOU AND ME FREE.

But like most things, there is there is more than one side to things.

Knowledge CAN also Destroy and Bind people.
Like IF you teach that there WAS NEVER TWO SYSTEMS
You are believing and teaching a lie. Because there "was" a system that excluded all human kind outside of Israel, all "was" dung ( Shit ), sorry I don't like making things polictically correct.

The only SINNERS were of the house of Israel. Gentiles "Were" not considered sinners at that time. Because they "were" not in the equaision. At the time the books were written. unless you mix the books up and put Gentiles in where they don't belong. little example which I "know" you really don't need this example, I am putting it is for the others, Matt.10:5

Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, ...
But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel...

Saying the Kingdom of Heaven IS at Hand.

Matt. 15:24  Red Letter words, " I am not sent , BUT to the Lost sheep of the house of Israel"

and remember this, all others "were" dogs, crap, nothing at the time.

Red letter, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast to dogs...

What dogs do you think He is talking about ????????

It is those that follow Jesus that have the light of life.  If we keep His word then we are His disciples indeed, and we will know the truth and the truth will us be freeing.  Initially Jesus came, not to the rest of the world, but as a prophet and teacher to Israel.  This was before He died to his Adamic humanity and was raised a new kind of human.  He still makes a distinction between those following Him and those who are stubborn against the truth.

so to end this reFormer, I believe you are Right. I am just avocating that we know when where and How we Became Members of this Group of Peoples.

Once you to the above paragraph, God Willing, we will never "MIX"  the two Peoples ever again, this is very hard if you don't even know that a division "was" absolutly imparitive...at the time.   I am :bdh: :pitiful: very sorry that I use the words that rub you way the wrong way Circumcision and UNCircumcision


Molly, Thanks for you help and support .

ANYONE, THAT WANTS TO USE MY BOOKS, I WILL MAIL THEM TO YOU IF YOU PROMISE TO MAIL THEM BACK.

But most importain, reFormer, I know in my heart that you don't want to see or hear these word that will fill you with so much "more" love of Scriptures, in A.E. Knoch's belief system { Concordant Publishing Concern Co. }, But I "personally wish you could read them because they open up peoples understanding so much when we know some basic facts of truth, and not get stimulated by a few words that the reader miss understands when used in proper contex.

I do have great respect for "you", even tho I do see that YOU have built a wall with that thing that rubs you the wrong way, and are not even close to ready to see and hear this "thing", that does the opposit of destroys.

Lee.

If I could afford it I would have as a resource of great spiritual wealth all issues of "Unsearchable Riches" in bound volumes as was available from Concordant Publishing Concern (and, I think it was also from perfectgraceministries@yahoo.com.)  A truly marvelous magazine.  I have books by Loudy and Knoch, also the one by Marks...it isn't out of ignorance I reject dispensationalism.  After Knoch's, which seem to be increasingly unavailable and may have been based on Bullinger's anyway, I think the best outlines of Scripture are found in Bullinger's The Companion Bible.  I treasure the several books and commentaries of his that I have.  I just don't agree with dispensationalism.

The first verse of the New Testament, rightly understood, refutes the foundation of dispensationalism.  "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."  To Abraham was made the promise to inherit the entire world (cosmos) and to David is given the right to rule it.
Galatians 3:27-29 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
27 For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,
28 in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.
29 Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment ("heirs," AV) according to the promise.

Let me leave you with a quote from a book I very much recommend that illustrates the antinomian delusion of dispensationalism.  The book is Wrongly Dividing The Word Of Truth A Critique of Dispensationalism by John Gerstner (Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Publishsers, Inc.) p.249:
"[Dispensationalism] believes that regeneration brings a new divine nature that is separate from the old nature and unaffected by it, and that justification applies only to this new nature.  The old nature contines to sin, and indeed, does nothing but sin, because it is utterly unaffected by sanctification.  But since the dispensationalists do not really believe in the salvation of the sinner (who desperately needs it), but only of the saint (who as a part of God does not need it), he does not care what this old nature does.  How the old nature behaves does not affect the "salvation" of the new nature at all.  The old nature may violate the law of God all the day long, but that does not affect the new nature.  A person may actually have the old nature operating all the time in the business of sin and nothing but sin, but, since it is the old nature, it does not affect his salvation."

I very much enjoyed this post Reformer.
If it is not too obliging on my behalf, could you please explain the difference that you see between Christ's "Adamic humanity and" and "was raised a new kind of human".
What did Christ die to?
What is an Adanic human?

Blessings Barry

[Cardinal]

Christ is a seed that will not increase its size at all let alone into the full statue of the tree of life that is Christ Jesus from anything else but by "mana from heaven" that is the daily bread that we are taught to pray for while we ARE ALL still on our wilderness journey where the old man is to die.

:cloud9: AMEN

[Molly]

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

--John 17





46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

--Luke 1

[Beloved Servant]

# 1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

# 2 Corinthians 5:4
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Can it be had in this life or after we leave this world by being put in the ground ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????.

[Beloved Servant]

that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

[Barry DuPont]

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 7:9   For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.  

1Cr 15:22   For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Cr 15:55   O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?  
1Cr 15:56   The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

The immortality in question is not per a physical resurrection.  The grave is the grave of sin. The death is that of sin death.

The death that Adam brought is not physical death at all. And such is clearly not the context.
Rom 5:18   Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation

Christ has put and end to the liability of sin separation. Praise God for his loving kindness!

Let us gather together in the consciousness of His love which is without condition.  

JMO
Blessings Barry

[Beloved Servant]

I die daily so that He may Live, Not I but Christ.

[Beloved Servant]

36 And the enemies of a man are those of his household.

[Barry DuPont]

Dear Beloved, (and that you are)

In regards to my previous post about resurrection out of sin death, I was wondering what dieing daily and enemies within one's household had in common as a train of thought.

My apologies as I'm unable to connect the dot's.
I thought that maybe you considered me your enemy but that was only a fleeting thought that may be really way off base but being human I have those.

I hope that this doesn't put you on the spot, I'm just trying to comprehend your posts.

My concern is if I'm considered any one's enemy "here" I really need to vacate the premises.
If my challenge to the premise of some here that humanity is created corrupt, through the Father so that the Son has to fix it all is regarded as nothing but intolerable opposition then I don't really need to be here. Of that I'm sure.
Any member or any moderator or any administrator may PM me at any point and ask me to leave. And it will be done immediately.

This is the age of the Internet after all. Thank you Lord!

I for myself, I stand in God's love without condition for all. Unless someone shows me something to the contrary which is of substance that is where I will continue to reside.

What I'm interested in then is the view of what some here mean in regards to Christ being alive "yet I am dead", and what that means in regards to the resurrection. For the biblical futurist here, when resurrected is that you who are still dead and Christ alive and if so what does that mean exactly?   
Blessings Barry

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Barry: That has been the Issue thus far "I believe" (your last paragraph ), and that is where a lot of UR people differ.

I believe that sense the Ressurection of God's Christ, ALL are in Christ, All have been MADE Alive, ALL no longer sin, ALL are living in the tree of life.  {Death Destroyed} done kaput.

when sin is used in any of Paul's books, he is telling a story of how it "was" when the past system was in use. [ The Law system ]  All are in the new life in Christ. So I need to ask my self if Hitler is in a Celestrial Heaven? or where ever.
Or others as bad as he was? So when I know that Adam dragged all Human kind into death,{the good with the bad} Christ Dragged ALL Human Kind into life,{the good with the bad} and so in the many many many ages, (eons ), in the future, Human kind on a one on one basis gets awaken by God at His will, when He sees fit, on His time table. And if it is not on this side of the grave that is ok with me. I also believe countless things (humans) can be made to acknowledge The Only Name Which Being Healed Can be had, Which is God's Christ, Jesus.

[Molly]

It's really not all that complicated--but somehow it becomes so...



Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good;and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

[reFORMer]

Problem with what is quoted from Reformer post is the new nature is Christ does not ever sin, no if ands or buts about it........ and any doctrine that teaches otherwise is $%^&*

When Jesus said there were two men in a bed (the heart where one is to be at rest) those two are the only two men ever created and they are Adam and Christ....... one is acceptable and one is not

For any of you who might want to advocate that the new man within you can sin I would strongly suggest you go study up on the teaching of Jesus for when an unclean spirit gets the boot from the heart of a newborn babe of Jesus Christ but then returns. (Mat 12, Luke 11)

Christ is a seed that will not increase its size at all let alone into the full statue of the tree of life that is Christ Jesus from anything else but by "mana from heaven" that is the daily bread that we are taught to pray for while we ARE ALL still on our wilderness journey where the old man is to die.

When that seed that is Christ becomes bigger and more powerful than the tree of knowledge (the two men in a bed within us) that we have all become despite whether that knowledge is good or evil then and only then will a mature Christ rule in and from our hearts 24/7

One thing that will cause the seed of Christ to remain nothing more than a seed within us is all the man made garbage that is taught the vast majority of the time .............. and that is somethingh you can bet the farm on.

Blessings

Doug

I believe what has also been my experience, that, "Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God." (1 Jn 3:9, CLT)  My spirit is regenerated in union with the Spirit of God that is making manifest God ato my awareness.  The previous thoughts and emotions were serving the flesh's lust, the devil's plan and the world's ways.  This always fresh light of the presence of God judges the carnal man and, however haltingly, I persist in following after the Spirit.  Increasingly I am coming to be in accord with the Spirit.  But, it is through a process of being subject to sin and yet waring against its control in my bodies parts.  "For it is not the good that I will that I am doing, but the evil that I am not willing, this I am putting into practice.  Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin which is making its home in me." (Romans 7:19-20, CLT)  For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within, yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." (Romans 7:22-23, CLT)  My transfer by God into the realm ruled by the son of His love is being followed up with the stumbler that I am becoming more repulsed by sin because of the judgements God puts me through and my increasing rest in obedience to the will of the Spirit.  So increasingly The Spirit is manifesting the God of Jesus and His power and character in me.  I'm coming into the satifaction of the rest of faith.

Another "thing that will cause the seed of Christ to remain nothing more than a seed within us" (to quote your phrase Doug) is to focus on the flesh nature developed in the world of the seed body descended from Adam.  Though the new nature of Christ as a quickening Spirit has beem implanted in it and it will metamorphosis in the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles, we still carry this embodiment around expecting ("in hope of" AV) the glory of God.  Molly brought out this point as quoted following.  Perhaps I should have continued to explain the similarity of dispensationalism with certain aspects of gnosticism.  They considered the true self to be the spark of life rather than the body containing it.  The body was treated by them almost as many Hindus do.  It's an illusion to be transcended and not trapped in.  So far this sounds almost Christian; but, the incarnation and resurrection changes the way we look at even the body of flesh.  The earliest form of teaching expressed in what has been called "The Apostle's Creed," which is the earliest creed, confesses "the resurrection of the flesh" rather than "the resurrection of the body" which is usually said today.

(As well, that Jesus went to hell, preached the good news to all of that realm and lead captivity captive as He raised from the dead was a very important doctrine to the earliest church.  That Jesus Christ "was crucified, dead, and buried;" then, "Descended into hell..." has been removed from most confessions.  To know that the potter continues His work beyond death, that death does not determine destiny, and, as Jesus said, "He that believes in me, though he was dead, yet shall he live," has been rejected by most evangelical churches.  That Jesus, "Descended into hell" is not in most forms of the creeds used today.  Because so many, even if they know how to read, still do not read the Bible, it makes creedal confessions all the more important even in our contemporary world.)

I do think people need to repent of wrongful actions [although it might not be so easy to stop, and might even take a lifetime of struggle], but I also think they should focus on Jesus, not on sin.  That's just my feeling about it.  It's the old golfer's trick--if you focus on the trap and are in fear of it, you will invariably hit the ball into the trap.  Rather, focus on the flag, with the full assurance that when you hit that ball, it's going to land two feet from the hole.  It's impossible to keep sinning if we walk daily with our Lord, and, if we do sin, we know we have such a high Priest who will make intercession for us with the One at the top. So, I don't fear sin so much as I try to do the right thing out of my love for Him--what would Jesus do?  Over time this love works its way into us like yeast into dough, making the whole lump holy. He's already done all the hard work.


Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The point that, "...it might even take a lifetime of struggle," as Molly said, is very important.  Self discipline is part of the fruit or harvest of the spirit.  Devoted thoughts, much passion and many deeds are often put into our sins.  We didn't get into it overnight, and normally won't get out of it overnight.  Paul explains that our bodies are going to be slaves of whatever we give ourselves over to:
Romans 6:16-17 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
16 Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?
17 Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over.

Liberty from sin can be taught.  We must not center on our change.  We are continuing incarnate, meaning, "in the flesh," until the time appointed by the Father.  But that, "Death is swallowed up in victory" means we are going to do the gulping down of death, we who after the inner man of the heart are overcoming everything that destroys mankind.  The water of life flows out of our temples from the innermost chambers.  Victory is not ignoring the undisloged sin, but mastering it by eating His flesh, partaking of His holy identity in it and drinking His blood, swallowing that invigorating supply of the soul of Christ.  Being filled with Him we are overwhelmed by a nature that death can no more touch and for whom sin bears no attraction.  Many give up because they don't see an expected change in their carnal lusts.  There must be something beyond the denying of self, but it only comes with patient persistence.  The finishing work is not about our change; but, it is about His presence.  The finishing work means the motions of sin in our members are never indulged, only ignored or eliminated, the work done in our not thinking according to sin, no e-motioning from sin's enticements, no will to concieve sin because we are receiving "incorruptible" life.

Romans 6:18-20 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
18 Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness.
19 As a man am I saying this, because of the infirmity of your flesh.  For even as you present your members as slaves to Uncleanness and to Lawlessness for lawlessness, thus now present your members as slaves to Righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of Sin, you were free as to Righteousness.

"Because of the weakness of your flesh" your body is brought into captivity, slaving to its master.  We are either disposed to the flesh or are given over to the Spirit.  We who have the seed of God enslave the flesh and become free from the other masters that we have known.  That anointing we have recieved of the Holy is doing a quick work and cutting it short in righteousness.

Romans 6:6-14 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
6 knowing this, that our old humanity was crucified together with Him, that the body of Sin may be nullified, for us by no means to be still slaving for Sin,
7 for one who dies has been justified from Sin.

8 Now if we died together with Christ, we believe that we shall be living together with Him also,
9 having perceived that Christ, being roused from among the dead, is no longer dying. Death is lording it over Him no longer,
10 for in that He died, He died to Sin once for all time, yet in that He is living, He is living to God.
11 Thus you also, be reckoning yourselves to be dead, indeed, to Sin, yet living to God in Christ Jesus, our Lord.
12 Let not Sin, then, be reigning in your mortal body, for you to be obeying its lusts.
13 Nor yet be presenting your members, as implements of injustice, to Sin, but present yourselves to God as if alive from among the dead, and your members as implements of righteousness to God.
14 For Sin shall not be lording it over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

[sparrow]

It's really not all that complicated--but somehow it becomes so...



Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good;and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

I agree.

[Barry DuPont]

Quote Reformer emphasis mine:
I believe what has also been my experience, that, "Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God." (1 Jn 3:9, CLT)  My spirit is regenerated in union with the Spirit of God that is making manifest God ato my awareness.  The previous thoughts and emotions were serving the flesh's lust, the devil's plan and the world's ways.  This always fresh light of the presence of God judges the carnal man and, however haltingly, I persist in following after the Spirit.  Increasingly I am coming to be in accord with the Spirit.  But, it is through a process of being subject to sin and yet waring against its control in my bodies parts.  "For it is not the good that I will that I am doing, but the evil that I am not willing, this I am putting into practice.  Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin which is making its home in me." (Romans 7:19-20, CLT)  For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within, yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." (Romans 7:22-23, CLT)  My transfer by God into the realm ruled by the son of His love is being followed up with the stumbler that I am becoming more repulsed by sin because of the judgements God puts me through and my increasing rest in obedience to the will of the Spirit.  So increasingly The Spirit is manifesting the God of Jesus and His power and character in me.  I'm coming into the satifaction of the rest of faith.
End quote.

Hey Reformer.

Romans 7 has nothing to do with Paul as a Christian knowing Christ. Nothing at all.
Rom 7:5   For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.  
Rom 7:6   But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.  

Rom 7:25   I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord {that I am no longer under a servitude to the law for righteousness}. So then {as a concluding remark to all of what I have just said about being in the flesh under the law} with the mind I myself serve the law of God {as a desire to please him with can never be attained to in the flesh, and so then}; but with the flesh the law of sin.  

7:25 is the transition of thought from "flesh" to "spirit". From "law" to "Grace". It's just a crying shame (imo) how badly this verse is taken out of its context.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  
Rom 8:2   For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul is speaking of the difference between what he WAS and what then WAS. Please, don't mix the two or combine the two.

It is my opinion that a very grave mistake is being made here in interpreting what "dieing to self" means scripturally speaking! And that within the transition of the ages from the cross to AD 70. And then this very misunderstanding and misappropriation of what one thinks "dieing to self" means is then being used as an all encompassing limpness test (spelling might be wrong there, sorry) for all other understandings that are acquired.  

Very similarly imo the Buddhist never really ever gets rid of his ego though he tries a life to do so. He just cannot accept that is how God made him and that God did not make a mistake that he has to now try and fix.

God had no problem with humanity at all. He has a problem with people establishing a self that cannot accept his love without condition. For there is not efficacy in that self. And so that was Paul's understanding of "in the flesh". In an independent human potential.
That's what Paul was dieing to and that that's what transformed his life into a loving caring sacrificial person.  

Phl 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed [is] not grievous, but for you [it is] safe.  
Phl 3:2   Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.  
Phl 3:3   For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.  
Phl 3:4   Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:  
Phl 3:5   Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;  
Phl 3:6   Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.  
Phl 3:7   But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.  
Phl 3:8   Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,  
Phl 3:9   And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:  

And that is what they were working through in this transition of the covenant ages.

JMO
Barry

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Barry, part of the reason your arguments are falling on some deaf ears here, is some of us have EXPERIENCED the LIVING WORD being fulfilled in our midst, ie. it's not a book to know mentally only, it's a book that illicits change in our innermost being, working itself outward, with signs and wonders following. A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. Blessings.....

[sheila]

 true...

   if the Holy spirit had not called me out of Babylon some

  12 years ago.I might have beleived your premise that she was

  already destroyed.That she didn't exist in my era.

   what are we doing here Barry? why are we not in the pews of

  Christendom?

  what have we been called out of?

   Rev 17; 3  then the angel carried me away in the spirit

into a desert.There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blaspeous names,and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet

......she held a golden cup in her hand,filled with abominable things,and the filth of her adulteries

  why are you astonished..I WILL EXPLAIN TO YOU THE

  MYSTERY OF THE WOMAN AND THE BEAST SHE RIDES

  THE BEAST WHICH YOU SAW...ONCE WAS[past]...NOW IS NOT

  [PRESENT] AND WILL[future] COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS

AND GO TO IT'S DESTRUCTION


  REV 18;4  COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE,

  so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not

receive any of her plagues.....again....why are we here?

who has called us out? what have we been called out of?


   is the beast captured and has it gone off into the secound

death, the false prophet..are they in the lake of fire

are they obliterated in the earth.?

   are we not expierencing these very things, now?

   

[Molly]

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now
no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  
Rom 8:2   For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul is speaking of the difference between what he WAS and what then WAS. Please, don't mix the two or combine the two.

It is my opinion that a very grave mistake is being made here in interpreting what "dieing to self" means scripturally speaking! And that within the transition of the ages from the cross to AD 70. And then this very misunderstanding and misappropriation of what one thinks "dieing to self" means is then being used as an all encompassing limpness test (spelling might be wrong there, sorry) for all other understandings that are acquired.  

Very similarly imo the Buddhist never really ever gets rid of his ego though he tries a life to do so. He just cannot accept that is how God made him and that God did not make a mistake that he has to now try and fix.

God had no problem with humanity at all. He has a problem with people establishing a self that cannot accept his love without condition. For there is not efficacy in that self. And so that was Paul's understanding of "in the flesh". In an independent human potential.
That's what Paul was dieing to and that that's what transformed his life into a loving caring sacrificial person.  

I like that way of putting it, if I'm understanding you correctly.  That's my biggest problem--to stop trying to do it by myself.  God wants the glory and wants ceaseless relationship with us.  The problem is not our ego, but that our ego wants to do it all by itself and for itself.

I don't like that word, ego, but since everyone knows what it means, I'll use it also to mean the self-centered, self-aggrandizing Self.  But, as we put that to rest and stand aside and watch Jesus in action in our lives, our eyes get big and our jaws drop in surprise and delight, and it is no longer all about our ego, but all about Him.

[sparrow]

Yeah, I always remember that little thing... EGO = easing God out.
Some people roll their eyes and laugh. But y'know I think it's rather true. I think part of this life is us realizing that we need our Creator. We think we can depend solely on ourselves but reality is we need Him. Realizing this.. makes you just cling to Him more and more. Especially when you start to fathom His love for us... :HeartThrob: To say it's humbling is putting it mildly. I have this little thing taped to my computer "The nearer beings are to God, the more humble they are; and the farther from Him, the prouder." I think it's true in that His love just humbles you. (The nearer you are, in this case... to me means you understand more and more His love for us!) and it leaves you in awe. It's not that you are humbled in fear  :sigh: like most of Christendom will have you be humbled, but just humbled by His immense and unfathomable love.  :HeartThrob: Hope that makes sense.

[Barry DuPont]

:cloud9: Barry, part of the reason your arguments are falling on some deaf ears here, is some of us have EXPERIENCED the LIVING WORD being fulfilled in our midst, ie. it's not a book to know mentally only, it's a book that illicits change in our innermost being, working itself outward, with signs and wonders following. A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. Blessings.....

Who said anything about knowing it mentally only?
Not I!

A person that knows both in mind and in heart they are loved without condition and that everyone else is too, need not fall prey to another with an interpretation of a religious experience.

There is often a vast difference between an experience and an interpretation thereof. There is often a vast difference between what the revelation was actually in its simplicity and what people make of it through their filtering process.
So the point remains.

What was Paul dying to and can you show it?  

Example:
The flesh profits nothing does not mean that being human profits nothing. It meant that one's own self imposed independent potential to be something gets in the way of just knowing you are loved. That was the "in the flesh" that Paul was dieing to.  
Jhn 1:17   For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.  
Jhn 6:63   It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

To confuse and misappropriate what they were actually dieing to often leads to the exasperating of others as they try to die in ways that they will never succeed at. Always struggling and never free.

Love is the only transforming mechanism that we need. Just too simple I suppose.  
Love is the only bonding mechanism that we need.
Love is our fellowship. Not doctrines of impossible deaths.
Our worth and value is a gift. The love of God is our gift.


Blessings Barry

[Barry DuPont]

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now
no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  
Rom 8:2   For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul is speaking of the difference between what he WAS and what then WAS. Please, don't mix the two or combine the two.

It is my opinion that a very grave mistake is being made here in interpreting what "dieing to self" means scripturally speaking! And that within the transition of the ages from the cross to AD 70. And then this very misunderstanding and misappropriation of what one thinks "dieing to self" means is then being used as an all encompassing limpness test (spelling might be wrong there, sorry) for all other understandings that are acquired.  

Very similarly imo the Buddhist never really ever gets rid of his ego though he tries a life to do so. He just cannot accept that is how God made him and that God did not make a mistake that he has to now try and fix.

God had no problem with humanity at all. He has a problem with people establishing a self that cannot accept his love without condition. For there is not efficacy in that self. And so that was Paul's understanding of "in the flesh". In an independent human potential.
That's what Paul was dieing to and that that's what transformed his life into a loving caring sacrificial person.  

I like that way of putting it, if I'm understanding you correctly.  That's my biggest problem--to stop trying to do it by myself.  God wants the glory and wants ceaseless relationship with us.  The problem is not our ego, but that our ego wants to do it all by itself and for itself.

I don't like that word, ego, but since everyone knows what it means, I'll use it also to mean the self-centered, self-aggrandizing Self.  But, as we put that to rest and stand aside and watch Jesus in action in our lives, our eyes get big and our jaws drop in surprise and delight, and it is no longer all about our ego, but all about Him.

Very good Molly!
The problem is not our ego. The problem is what gets attached to it. Which is doctrines of attainment. That then became the "self" they had to die to. Thus attaining to the resurrection by dieing to that self.
We got the whole meaning of "Attaining" wrong!

We might read a scripture like, "Work out your own salvation" and think they were working out their own salvation. Wrong!
It meant that the Jews had to work though this false attaining process differently than the Gentile had to work though theirs. Thus to attain to the resurrection by dieing to the false attaining doctrines which attached to their egos.

Hope I make sense LOL!

Blessings Barry

[sparrow]

The problem is not our ego. The problem is what gets attached to it. Which is doctrines of attainment. That then became the "self" they had to die to.

ahh interesting. I can see this.

[sheila]

  what has self-attainment got to do with following His Holy

  spirit?  Have we, who have been called out of Babylon,and had

the salvation of all men declared to us..done it of our own

attainment?  Was this not a work of the Holy spirit done

for us..in us.?

    2 Cor 1;9 indeed in our hearts we felt the sentence of death

But this happened that we might NOT rely on ourselves,but God

HE HAS delivered us from such a deadly peril....

  and HE WILL DELIVER US

  ON Him we have set our hope...

  THAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO DELIVER US