End times?

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Card, I get the drift that your trying to pin on A. Loudy that he was a astrologer or "something Bad."

If "you" don't like him, then maybe you should not accept his word, i.e.
the Concordant Literal Bible and all attached to their understanding, or beliefs.

Like Sigler
tentmakers
J.P.Eby to name Just a few that I "know" your aware of.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I am NOT trying to portray HIM as an astrologer (where you got that, I don't know) or anything bad, but I WILL judge that SPIRIT that blinded him to PRESENT REVEALED TRUTH, no different than any other that seeks to divide the body that His death made ONE. God is no respecter of persons, and know ye not we shall judge "angels"? Blessings....

:cloud9: PS. Being a translator does not insure perfection, as the only translator that is infallible is the HOLY SPIRIT, our teacher, because He is the only one by which we can profit spiritually thru, ie. adding to the measure of Christ in us.

[Molly]

This is interesting to me to mull over because I have always felt I was missing something important regarding this.  For instance, why would my Jesus make that comment about dogs when talking to that poor woman who wanted her daughter healed?  Or how could he tell the prostitute to go and sin no more as if just by giving her the command such a thing would be possible?  But, he wouldn't have said it if that were not the case--that a life could be turned around on a dime by him.

Why did he say he had come only for the lost sheep of Israel?  And, yet Paul says it is the Gentiles who will receive the gifts and mysteries of God, not Israel. 


10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

--John 8


I'm thinking not from the point of view of today, but from the point of view of then, and how it must have looked to the Jews of that time.   Some, I think, knew who Jesus was from reading their own prophets and sought to kill him because they perceived that he was about to snatch the power and kingdom out of their hands.  But, some, like Peter and Paul couldn't quite comprehend but were willing to understand when God revealed the truth to them.  What they had strived for and worked so hard for was given freely, graciously, and completely to the Gentiles--to the whole world.


7And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

9But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

10And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

11And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.

12And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

13And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

--Acts 11

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Because Molly, Jesus the son of man, came to the lost sheep of Israel, BUT Jesus THE CHRIST the SON OF GOD came to both Jew and Gentile after He died, and was glorified and shed forth that which you see and hear, ie. the day of Pentecost. THERE is the difference in the ministry that is discerned, but INCORRECTLY applied.

One a suffering servant, the other a risen King seated at the right hand of the Father, able to plant seed to raise up HIS generation.

John: 37  In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried , saying , If any man thirst , let him come unto me, and drink .  38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said , out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.   39  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Same Spirit, but diversities thereof. As you noted by the scripture you brought out above, Peter, a JEW, found that the Father THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST was saving the gentiles as well. The Jews that would, had to come in FIRST, because the Gentiles are grafted INTO THEM.

Was salvation not available to all? Technically yes, as the woman who said that about the crumbs and the woman saved from adultery showed, and for that matter, the centurian, and He honored their faith where they were at, as He has throughout the generations of men and women that heard Him and believed.

The reason it says that the gifts and the mysteries of God were given to the Gentiles, is because the Jews of that day had a season to receive before the "door to the Ark was shut" on them. Once as many came in of the clean and unclean "beasts" of carnal men that were going to, He concluded them in unbelief UNTIL the Gentiles could come in. He continues this pattern of opening and closing doors that no man can open or close, until ALL are brought in.

And I might add, that the if the "putting away" (a DIVORCED wife term) was glorious, how much more will the RESTORATION of them be (and they have been being called in for the last 2 decades), which means the door is not far from closing on THIS generation. Blessings....

[Doug]

This is interesting to me to mull over because I have always felt I was missing something important regarding this.  For instance, why would my Jesus make that comment about dogs when talking to that poor woman who wanted her daughter healed? 

Jesus said, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." The saying is quite true.

Which is preferable, to be called a dog, or to be called dead?

Scripture says: "a living dog is better than a dead lion." [Eccl. 9:4]

Yet Jesus called the Jewish relatives of a disciple "dead" when he said "Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." [Mat. 8:22]

I suggest what he said of the woman of Canaan was probably less offensive than what he said about those bereaved Jews. And Jesus called Pharisees serpents, did he not?

Or how could he tell the prostitute to go and sin no more as if just by giving her the command such a thing would be possible?  But, he wouldn't have said it if that were not the case--that a life could be turned around on a dime by him.

Where does it say she was a prostitute? She was caught committing adultery, and Jesus warned her to quit, which was good advice.

Why did he say he had come only for the lost sheep of Israel?  And, yet Paul says it is the Gentiles who will receive the gifts and mysteries of God, not Israel. 

Which of us was not "lost"? Only those who are "lost" need to be "found." Only the sick need a physician. If we are found by Christ, who is our Shepherd, we become part of his flock, which is called Israel, Jerusalem, the temple of God, etc. And so the church is the "lost sheep of Israel," those who have been found.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

--John 8


I'm thinking not from the point of view of today, but from the point of view of then, and how it must have looked to the Jews of that time.   Some, I think, knew who Jesus was from reading their own prophets and sought to kill him because they perceived that he was about to snatch the power and kingdom out of their hands.  But, some, like Peter and Paul couldn't quite comprehend but were willing to understand when God revealed the truth to them.  What they had strived for and worked so hard for was given freely, graciously, and completely to the Gentiles--to the whole world.

The story of how Christ revealed that the Gentiles were being included in the promise of salvation is related in detail in the NT, and was foretold in the prophecies of the OT. James interpreted the prophecy of Amos 9:11-12 and applied it to the church, Acts 15:13-18.

The prophecy James referred to is :

Amos 9:11-12
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

James understood that "the tabernacle of David" in that prophecy was a reference to the church. 

[Molly]

Which of us was not "lost"? Only those who are "lost" need to be "found." Only the sick need a physician. If we are found by Christ, who is our Shepherd, we become part of his flock, which is called Israel, Jerusalem, the temple of God, etc. And so the church is the "lost sheep of Israel," those who have been found.

Well, I just think that as a technicality, it had to be offered to the Jews first, and they had to reject the offer as a group.  That would allow God to show mercy to the Gentiles.  I'm still missing why this is the case lol--I mean why it had to be done that way or what point was being made.



16Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

17And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

18And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

19And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

20And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

21So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

22And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

24For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

--Luke 14

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Card:   my comment about astrologer must have been my confusion, when you talked about A. Loudy saying or doing something about moon cycles or Lunar covenant.

I have to ask,     Do you not know that "YOU" are an angel of God?  simple : yes or no... The only meaning of a bible angel is a messenger.... when you speak, your giving a message.      If your message gives the hearer life, you are an angel of light/God, If you message gives the hearer death, you are an angel of Darkness/death.  Peroid.... end of story

Now as for lost sheep of "before" the rezz of JC.  The new birth is found only in the Circumcision writings and has its application to the sons of Israel because of "[ their covenant relationship with Jehovah their God.]" Theirs was " the sonship" (Ex. 4:22; Hosea 11:1-4; Rom. 9:4, Greek), from which they strayed and became "prodigals" (Lost son parable, Lk. 15:11-24) and Matt. 15:24)    For them to enter the kingdom of (not heaven), God and enjoy their sonship again, they must be "begotten anew" or "born again" by the water and the Spirit ( John 3:3-8; Eze. 36:22-36) It applies strictly to Israel and concerns their earthy salvation and allotment in a future day of restoration ( Isa. 66:7-9; John 3:2, 10-12; Eze. 36:22-36

After Rezz day or about Acts 28:28
         On the other hand, Gentiles, who NEVER had any sonship, are aliens, without hope and God in the world ( Acts 14:16; 17:24-28; Eph. 2:11-12). By His grace through faith, they receive the adoption of sons and are made members of Gods family (Eph. 1:5; 2:11-19; Rom. 8:15,23). Paul alone speaks of sonship by adoption, and salvation with an allotment of glory in the heavens ( Eph. 1:3-5; Phil 3:20).

[Doug]

Which of us was not "lost"? Only those who are "lost" need to be "found." Only the sick need a physician. If we are found by Christ, who is our Shepherd, we become part of his flock, which is called Israel, Jerusalem, the temple of God, etc. And so the church is the "lost sheep of Israel," those who have been found.

Well, I just think that as a technicality, it had to be offered to the Jews first, and they had to reject the offer as a group.  That would allow God to show mercy to the Gentiles.  I'm still missing why this is the case lol--I mean why it had to be done that way or what point was being made.



16Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

17And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

18And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

19And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

20And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

21So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

22And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

24For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

--Luke 14

I think you may have answered your own question.

However here are some additional points to consider.

John 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]

This may be one to consider:

Zechariah 12:7
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

The "house of David" was interpreted by James as referring to the Church in Acts 15:16. Jerusalem may also represent the church. [Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22]

In Daniel 9:27, Christ confirms the covenant for one week, which is the 70th week, and the last half-week spans all the time since the crucifixion. The 70th corresponds to the last of the four periods of "seven times" in Lev. 26, in which God remembers his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and is reconciled to Israel. If this had occurred in the first century the prophecy would be fulfilled already and so there would be no time left for Gentiles to come in.

Doug

[Beloved Servant]

the rezz of JC.  

Hi Lee,
If you please, would you not take a cavalier tone with the most momentous event in human history.

[Taffy]

Card:   my comment about astrologer must have been my confusion, when you talked about A. Loudy saying or doing something about moon cycles or Lunar covenant.

I have to ask,     Do you not know that "YOU" are an angel of God?  simple : yes or no... The only meaning of a bible angel is a messenger.... when you speak, your giving a message.      If your message gives the hearer life, you are an angel of light/God, If you message gives the hearer death, you are an angel of Darkness/death.  Peroid.... end of story

Now as for lost sheep of "before" the rezz of JC.  The new birth is found only in the Circumcision writings and has its application to the sons of Israel because of "[ their covenant relationship with Jehovah their God.]" Theirs was " the sonship" (Ex. 4:22; Hosea 11:1-4; Rom. 9:4, Greek), from which they strayed and became "prodigals" (Lost son parable, Lk. 15:11-24) and Matt. 15:24)    For them to enter the kingdom of (not heaven), God and enjoy their sonship again, they must be "begotten anew" or "born again" by the water and the Spirit ( John 3:3-8; Eze. 36:22-36) It applies strictly to Israel and concerns their earthy salvation and allotment in a future day of restoration ( Isa. 66:7-9; John 3:2, 10-12; Eze. 36:22-36

After Rezz day or about Acts 28:28
         On the other hand, Gentiles, who NEVER had any sonship, are aliens, without hope and God in the world ( Acts 14:16; 17:24-28; Eph. 2:11-12). By His grace through faith, they receive the adoption of sons and are made members of Gods family (Eph. 1:5; 2:11-19; Rom. 8:15,23). Paul alone speaks of sonship by adoption, and salvation with an allotment of glory in the heavens ( Eph. 1:3-5; Phil 3:20).

Gal 4:1  Now I say, [That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;  


Gal 4:2   But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.  

Gal 4:3   Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:  

I suppose these too were ALL Gentiles slaves \ servant UNDER LAW to a SON of FAITH,...The Child of Promise,BORN a100 yrs

Gal 4:5   To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

we are ONE in HIM, the spirit united with the soul...it starts In Genesis, ADAM [ Spirit]  Eve [soul] , Man[ spirit] wife[ soul ], ill stop cause im just going to repeat what a few others have already shown

[HartleyDamboiseII]

No disrespect ment, I cant spell resirection, and i cant figure out why I lost my spell checker on this site. or my cut/ copy and paste function too.

[Molly]

This may be one to consider:

Zechariah 12:7
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

Yes, that looks important.  He is saving the tents of Judah saved first versus the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 

So--what are the tents of Judah?  They must be the Christians--those carrying the Christ [who must always have pre-eminence in all things], the Lion of the tribe of Judah. :mshock:


10The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

--Gen 49


"Shiloh"

H7886
שׁילה
shîylôh
shee-lo'
From H7951; tranquil; Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah: - Shiloh.



H7951
שׁלו    שׁלה
shâlâh  shâlav
shaw-law', shaw-lav'
The second form being used in Job_3:26; a primitive root; to be tranquil, that is, secure or successful: - be happy, prosper, be in safety.

[Doug]

This may be one to consider:

Zechariah 12:7
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

Yes, that looks important.  He is saving the tents of Judah saved first versus the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 

So--what are the tents of Judah?  They must be the Christians--those carrying the Christ [who must always have pre-eminence in all things], the Lion of the tribe of Judah. :mshock:


10The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

--Gen 49


"Shiloh"

H7886
שׁילה
shîylôh
shee-lo'
From H7951; tranquil; Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah: - Shiloh.



H7951
שׁלו    שׁלה
shâlâh  shâlav
shaw-law', shaw-lav'
The second form being used in Job_3:26; a primitive root; to be tranquil, that is, secure or successful: - be happy, prosper, be in safety.

I don't know. But for centuries, Jews have sought to be buried on the Mount of Olives thinking they will be first to rise from the dead!

Comments from:
Zechariah: his visions and warnings
By William Lindsay Alexander. 1885
http://books.google.ca/books?id=jVMHAAAAQAAJ

"The Lord also will succour the tents of Judah first (or, according to another reading, supported by the LXX, Syriac and Vulgate, as in former days), in order that the splendour of the house of David and the splendour of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not exalt itself over Judah" (ver. 7). By "the tents of Judah" are designated the inhabitants of the land generally; not, as has been suggested, those dwelling in "huts which cannot afford any protection to their inhabitants" (Calvin), but the country at large, with its inhabitants, as distinguished from Jerusalem, with its princes and people. It is not of much moment which of the two readings above noted is followed, as in either case it is the deliverance of Judah as preceding that of Jerusalem that is intimated. This should be in order to preclude any exaltation of itself by the capital or its princes over the nation at large. "The splendour (***, beauty, magnificence, glory, not boasting here) of the house of David," is the glory and honour which God should put upon Zerubbabel, in whom the royal line was continued (cf. Hag. ii. 20-23 ; Zech. iv. 6-10, 14); and "the splendour of the inhabitants of Jerusalem" is the dignity and honour which rested on that city because of God's habitation there, and the glory that should come upon it from this (cf. i. 16, ii. 8-13). The general purport of this announcement is that the whole covenant nation should participate in the salvation of the Lord alike, and that this should be brought about by the country at large being delivered sooner than the metropolis, so that the latter should have no vocation to lift itself up above the former, but both should rejoice together in that salvation which the Lord had brought.

Through the assault of the heathen powers Jerusalem was plunged in conflict; but, endowed with marvellous strength, she should be able to resist all their efforts and ultimately to overcome and destroy them. "In that day shall the Lord protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them in that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of Jehovah before them" (ver. 8). Jerusalem was the city of God, the place of His habitation, and over it He would watch with constant care to protect it from all harm (cf. 2 Kings xix. 34, xx. 6; Isa. xxxi. 5, xxxvii. 35, &c.). In it there were some who were weak; some who through weakness could not stand steady on their feet, but stumbled (hannikshal) (1 Sam. ii. 4). These, when God came to protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, should be as David, strong and brave and potent as was He, the great hero of their nation (cf. I Sam. xvi. 18; 2 Sam. xvii. 18; I Chron. xiv. 17). And whilst the weak should thus be made strong, they that were already strong and powerful, "the house of David," the chiefs and leaders of the people, should be endowed with supernatural might; they should be as God, mighty as the angel of Jehovah who went up with Israel out of Egypt, discomfited their enemies and led them through the wilderness to the promised land (Ex. xxiii. 20 ff.; Josh. v. 13 ff.; Ps. cvi. 9, 10). "The general meaning is that the Lord God will strengthen the weakest and give additional elevation, honour, and influence to the highest, and add divinely to the might of the mightiest, so that no opposing power shall ever stand before them, any more than when that Divine angel of the covenant was commissioned to be their conductor and guardian, of whom Jehovah said, My Name is in Him" (Wardlaw). And whilst God thus endows His people with strength, He will come forth against their enemies and seek to destroy them (ver. 9). God here speaks after the manner of men. He says that He will seek to destroy the enemies of Jerusalem, to indicate that this was His determined purpose, that on which He was bent and which He certainly would effect.


Doug

[Doug]

The events described in Zechariah 12:3-7 apply to the church, under the figure of the city of Jerusalem, when it is under siege by many invaders.

Zechariah 12:3-4
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

"Horses:" People with no understanding, [Psa. 32:9] or those who are carnally minded. [Jer. 5:8]

"Blindness:" Refers to spiritual blindness. [John 12:40; Rom. 11:8, 10]

Zechariah 12:5
And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

"Governors of Judah:" Teachers and leaders in the church. [1 Cor. 12:28]

"Inhabitants of Jerusalem:" Saints who have gone before, like the Apostles, whose names are included in the New Jerusalem. [Rev. 21:14]

Zechariah 12:6
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

The people round about being "devoured" by fire pictures the word of God, and the fiery judgment of God's word upon the enemies of the saints. It burns up false beliefs like chaff.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

"Devouring" is also seen here:

Revelation 20:7-9
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Zechariah 12:7
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

"The tents of Judah:" Saints alive on the earth.

"Inhabitants of Jerusalem:" Saints of previous centuries, who now await the resurrection. They are included in the New Jerusalem which is being prepared to come down from heaven to earth.

Hebrews 11:39-40
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
   
1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep.

This fits the idea seen in Zech. 14:7 of the day of darkness and clouds, that becomes light at evening; and the parable of the tares, where Jesus said, after the tares are removed;

Matthew 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Doug

[Molly]

21So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

22And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.


--Luke 14


"filled"

G1072
γεμίζω
gemizō
ghem-id'-zo
Transitive from G1073; to fill entirely: - fill (be) full.






13And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

14And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

15And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

--Luke 4


"fulfilled"

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

[Molly]

The people round about being "devoured" by fire pictures the word of God, and the fiery judgment of God's word upon the enemies of the saints. It burns up false beliefs like chaff.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

There's something really important going on here.


When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believe... in that day.



51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

--1 Cor 15

[noname]

Why did he say he had come only for the lost sheep of Israel?  And, yet Paul says it is the Gentiles who will receive the gifts and mysteries of God, not Israel.  

First we must understand what is meant by a Jew and what is meant by Israel...

the Jews are descendants from the House of Judah (ie Judah, Benjamin, Levi) which formed the southern kingdom after the split of the 12 tribes of Israel and were the only descendants of the whole of Israel that returned to the land, after being held captive for 70 years under Babylonian rule
The House of Judah was ruled by the kings and tribe of Judah, being descendants of David

The northern kingdom after the split of the 12 tribes, was known as the House of Israel and was ruled by the House of Joseph (ie Ephraim)
After the House of Israel was taken captive by the Assyrians, they were assimilated into the so-called Gentile nations and never returned to their land of origin...the Bible tells us that they were "lost into the nations unto this day"

So, "the Gentiles" and "the lost sheep of Israel" is technically speaking, the very same thing...

Further, we must remember that when Jacob died, he gave specific blessings to each of his 12 sons...
to Judah he gave the scepter and said that he would rule over his brothers "until Shiloh comes"...Judah would be king until someone bigger than himself would claim the title as king

to Joseph (ie Ephraim and Manasseh) he gave his covenant name, Israel - and all the covenant promises that God made with Abraham and Isaac, which includes the Kingdom (ie the fruitfulness mandate)..."Joseph will be a fruitfull bough"

thus according to Jacob's blessings, the King of Israel would be of the House of Judah and the Kingdom would reside in the House of Joseph

the OT prophets talked about the reunification of the whole house of Israel one day...ie when the staff of Judah and the staff of Israel will be joined together again as one staff in God's hand
the only person that can rightfully and righteously do this, is Jesus

Therefore, Jesus' first coming was to come as the King of the Jews (ie Judah - descended from the House of David)...to rightfully claim the throne of Judah/David...
Also to note is that David was king over the whole Israel unlike some of the other Judaic kings...David was also a king/priest, thus making him from the Melchizediakan order (the priestly order of Jesus) and NOT the Aaronic priestly order of the Levites...
David took over this mantle when he took Jerusalem from the Jebusites, of which the original King Melchizedek (ie Shem himself), was the founder of
the first work of Jesus is also reflected in the Feasts of Israel which was fulfilled by Him ie to name a few...Day of Atonement (His baptism and sending into the desert to be tempted), Passover (Him being crucified as the Lamb of God), Pentecost (when His Holy Spirit was sent to his followers and they preached the Gospel to all who was gathered in Jerusalem for the feast...many of whom were descendants of the northern tribes "lost sheep of Israel" but were now speaking Gentile languages after being assimilated into the nations)

the coming again of Jesus would be to gather and reunite the whole House of Israel...the ten tribes of the northern kingdom ("lost sheep"/Gentiles) with the southern kingdom (Jews)...the King reunited with His Kingdom
this is also reflected in the Feasts of Israel in the form of the Feast of Trumpets and especially the Feast of Tabernacles, which Jesus still need to fulfill...

[Doug]

The people round about being "devoured" by fire pictures the word of God, and the fiery judgment of God's word upon the enemies of the saints. It burns up false beliefs like chaff.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

There's something really important going on here.


When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believe... in that day.



51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

--1 Cor 15

In Zech. 12:3, Jerusalem is called a "burdensome stone for all people."

This "stone" refers to the stone cut without hands in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, in Dan. 2, that smote the image on the feet, and grew to become a great mountain that filled the entire earth. It represents Christ and his church.

Dan 2:34-35
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

So Zechariah identifies Jerusalem with the kingdom of God, and the church, rather than the earthly city, that Paul said was in bondage, and identified with Hagar the Egyptian bondwoman, who was cast out of Abraham's house. [Gal. 4:24-25]

When Jesus called Jerusalem "the city of the great King" [Mat. 5:35] he referred to the heavenly city, not the earthly one, which was "a shadow of good things to come" like other things in the OT. And similarly Jesus referred to his followers as a "city that is set on an hill."

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

Card:   my comment about astrologer must have been my confusion, when you talked about A. Loudy saying or doing something about moon cycles or Lunar covenant.

I have to ask,     Do you not know that "YOU" are an angel of God?  simple : yes or no... The only meaning of a bible angel is a messenger.... when you speak, your giving a message.      If your message gives the hearer life, you are an angel of light/God, If you message gives the hearer death, you are an angel of Darkness/death.  Peroid.... end of story

Now as for lost sheep of "before" the rezz of JC.  The new birth is found only in the Circumcision writings and has its application to the sons of Israel because of "[ their covenant relationship with Jehovah their God.]" Theirs was " the sonship" (Ex. 4:22; Hosea 11:1-4; Rom. 9:4, Greek), from which they strayed and became "prodigals" (Lost son parable, Lk. 15:11-24) and Matt. 15:24)    For them to enter the kingdom of (not heaven), God and enjoy their sonship again, they must be "begotten anew" or "born again" by the water and the Spirit ( John 3:3-8; Eze. 36:22-36) It applies strictly to Israel and concerns their earthy salvation and allotment in a future day of restoration ( Isa. 66:7-9; John 3:2, 10-12; Eze. 36:22-36

After Rezz day or about Acts 28:28
          On the other hand, Gentiles, who NEVER had any sonship, are aliens, without hope and God in the world ( Acts 14:16; 17:24-28; Eph. 2:11-12). By His grace through faith, they receive the adoption of sons and are made members of Gods family (Eph. 1:5; 2:11-19; Rom. 8:15,23). Paul alone speaks of sonship by adoption, and salvation with an allotment of glory in the heavens ( Eph. 1:3-5; Phil 3:20).

Gal 4:1  Now I say, [That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 


Gal 4:2   But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 

Gal 4:3   Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 

I suppose these too were ALL Gentiles slaves \ servant UNDER LAW to a SON of FAITH,...The Child of Promise,BORN a100 yrs

Gal 4:5   To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

we are ONE in HIM, the spirit united with the soul...it starts In Genesis, ADAM [ Spirit]  Eve [soul] , Man[ spirit] wife[ soul ], ill stop cause im just going to repeat what a few others have already shown

Yes the Gentiles were under the bondage of the elements of the world. The law declared them Gentiles.
This ended at the end of the old covenant in AD 70.
There is no further covenant to establish Jew and Gentile.

During the changeover of the covenants those "in Christ" were then already practicing the applied meaning of this coming fullness.
This is the "ONENESS" in question.

Blessings Barry

[Molly]

So Zechariah identifies Jerusalem with the kingdom of God, and the church, rather than the earthly city, that Paul said was in bondage, and identified with Hagar the Egyptian bondwoman, who was cast out of Abraham's house. [Gal. 4:24-25]

So the Jews under the law, born naturally,  were the children of the slave woman?

And, the Gentiles under grace, born from above,  are the children of the free woman--the children of the promise?


22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
   "Be glad, O barren woman,
      who bears no children;
   break forth and cry aloud,
      you who have no labor pains;
   because more are the children of the desolate woman
      than of her who has a husband."


31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

--Gal 4

[Doug]

So Zechariah identifies Jerusalem with the kingdom of God, and the church, rather than the earthly city, that Paul said was in bondage, and identified with Hagar the Egyptian bondwoman, who was cast out of Abraham's house. [Gal. 4:24-25]

So the Jews under the law, born naturally,  were the children of the slave woman?

And, the Gentiles under grace, born from above,  are the children of the free woman--the children of the promise?

More precisely, believers, both Jews and Gentiles, are under grace, and are born from above, and are the children of the free woman--the children of the promise.

22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
   "Be glad, O barren woman,
      who bears no children;
   break forth and cry aloud,
      you who have no labor pains;
   because more are the children of the desolate woman
      than of her who has a husband."


31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

--Gal 4

The Jerusalem of prophecy is not the earthly one! Peter said of the prophets, "not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." [1 Pet. 1:12]

Doug

[Molly]

The Jerusalem of prophecy is not the earthly one! Peter said of the prophets, "not unto themselves, but unto us
they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." [1 Pet. 1:12]

This says that the Old Testament prophets had the Spirit of Christ--

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

--1 Pet 1


And it was revealed to them that they were ministering to the Apostles [who were to come]--


12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you...

--1 Pet 1


on our behalf--


by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

--1 Pet 1


When you read it in the Greek it is like it is all happening in real time, the Prophets ministering to the Apostles via [dia] the Holy Spirit that they might likewise minister to us.  It gave me chills.


10so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

--Eph 3:10

[reFORMer]

reFormer:
I do not except the rebuilding of the WALL of partition EITHER. 

A.E. Knock, Founder and absolute German Maker of the Concordant Literal Version of the Bible, and he teaches IN DEPTH  knowledge of the two systems and how they relate to mankind today, but the two ARE ONE NOW, although knowing what words mean, just gives understanding to the LEARNER , "NOT" septeration ...

You use the nasty word often, dispensationalism: you might as well call me a F-en afro-amercian ,  But don't be bothered, I am not offended by any persons lack of knowledge in understanding God's word.

I consider A. E. Knoch to be in my choice of top ten Christians of the 20th Century.  Nevertheless, I don't agree with his extreme racial dispensationalism (ie., dipSinsationalism.)  He was a friend of E. W. Bullinger in the early days of his work with Scripture.  Bullinger is known as a hyper-dispensationalist.  It seems Knoch could be labeled the same.  I'm open to being proven wrong.  I do have an understanding of the dispensational doctrine; but, in no way would I equate that with, "...knowledge of understanding of God's word," if that is what you meant by that phrase.  I'm not sure what you mean by not accepting the rebuilding of the wall of partition, which is what modern dispensationalism does.  For instance, John Hagee definitely teaches two ways of salvation:  the Mosaic Covenant for today's Jews and Jesus as Messiah to the Gentile Church.

              Knowledge taught by the Concordant Literal Version IS GOOD knowledge...

And no, I don't like that word because of what it "alledgelly means to you. I am sorry if those kinds of people hurt you in any way.

To insult my presentation of Bible facts by saying it must be the result of personal embitteredness on my part greatly underestimates the reality of the situation.  The political trends in the USA that follow the popular media, both written (newspapers and magazines) as well as visual forms (television and movies) are moving into a position to persecute the Church.  This is the specific result of believers abandoning the civil sphere of life to the devil and his minions because of the doctrinal influence of dispensationalism.  Hal Lindsey in The Road to Holocaust, which he wrote following The Late Great Planet Earth, labors to prove that applying the value system taught in God's Law Word to our legislative process would bring about another holocaust like occured in Germany.  Understand, if you are seeking to have a culture founded in God's word Hal Lindsey says you are trying to do what the Nazis did.  If you don't know what a false teacher is I give you Hal Linsey as a contemporary example.  Against the Scripture, against those whose wisdom is from God, against Christ, a liar fomenting the persecution of the Church...though one among many, he's an unfortunate deceiver of those who might otherwise be followers of Jesus.  I could list names and quotations of many in our day who are similar posers who teach from this relatively new tradition rather than by revelation from the Holy Spirit.

But Knowledge WILL SET YOU AND ME FREE.

But like most things, there is there is more than one side to things.

Knowledge CAN also Destroy and Bind people.
Like IF you teach that there WAS NEVER TWO SYSTEMS
You are believing and teaching a lie. Because there "was" a system that excluded all human kind outside of Israel, all "was" dung ( Shit ), sorry I don't like making things polictically correct.

The only SINNERS were of the house of Israel. Gentiles "Were" not considered sinners at that time. Because they "were" not in the equaision. At the time the books were written. unless you mix the books up and put Gentiles in where they don't belong. little example which I "know" you really don't need this example, I am putting it is for the others, Matt.10:5

Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, ...
But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel...

Saying the Kingdom of Heaven IS at Hand.

Matt. 15:24  Red Letter words, " I am not sent , BUT to the Lost sheep of the house of Israel"

and remember this, all others "were" dogs, crap, nothing at the time.

Red letter, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast to dogs...

What dogs do you think He is talking about ????????

It is those that follow Jesus that have the light of life.  If we keep His word then we are His disciples indeed, and we will know the truth and the truth will us be freeing.  Initially Jesus came, not to the rest of the world, but as a prophet and teacher to Israel.  This was before He died to his Adamic humanity and was raised a new kind of human.  He still makes a distinction between those following Him and those who are stubborn against the truth.

so to end this reFormer, I believe you are Right. I am just avocating that we know when where and How we Became Members of this Group of Peoples.

Once you to the above paragraph, God Willing, we will never "MIX"  the two Peoples ever again, this is very hard if you don't even know that a division "was" absolutly imparitive...at the time.   I am :bdh: :pitiful: very sorry that I use the words that rub you way the wrong way Circumcision and UNCircumcision


Molly, Thanks for you help and support .

ANYONE, THAT WANTS TO USE MY BOOKS, I WILL MAIL THEM TO YOU IF YOU PROMISE TO MAIL THEM BACK.

But most importain, reFormer, I know in my heart that you don't want to see or hear these word that will fill you with so much "more" love of Scriptures, in A.E. Knoch's belief system { Concordant Publishing Concern Co. }, But I "personally wish you could read them because they open up peoples understanding so much when we know some basic facts of truth, and not get stimulated by a few words that the reader miss understands when used in proper contex.

I do have great respect for "you", even tho I do see that YOU have built a wall with that thing that rubs you the wrong way, and are not even close to ready to see and hear this "thing", that does the opposit of destroys.

Lee.

If I could afford it I would have as a resource of great spiritual wealth all issues of "Unsearchable Riches" in bound volumes as was available from Concordant Publishing Concern (and, I think it was also from perfectgraceministries@yahoo.com.)  A truly marvelous magazine.  I have books by Loudy and Knoch, also the one by Marks...it isn't out of ignorance I reject dispensationalism.  After Knoch's, which seem to be increasingly unavailable and may have been based on Bullinger's anyway, I think the best outlines of Scripture are found in Bullinger's The Companion Bible.  I treasure the several books and commentaries of his that I have.  I just don't agree with dispensationalism.

The first verse of the New Testament, rightly understood, refutes the foundation of dispensationalism.  "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."  To Abraham was made the promise to inherit the entire world (cosmos) and to David is given the right to rule it.
Galatians 3:27-29 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
27 For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,
28 in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.
29 Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment ("heirs," AV) according to the promise.

Let me leave you with a quote from a book I very much recommend that illustrates the antinomian delusion of dispensationalism.  The book is Wrongly Dividing The Word Of Truth A Critique of Dispensationalism by John Gerstner (Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Publishsers, Inc.) p.249:
"[Dispensationalism] believes that regeneration brings a new divine nature that is separate from the old nature and unaffected by it, and that justification applies only to this new nature.  The old nature contines to sin, and indeed, does nothing but sin, because it is utterly unaffected by sanctification.  But since the dispensationalists do not really believe in the salvation of the sinner (who desperately needs it), but only of the saint (who as a part of God does not need it), he does not care what this old nature does.  How the old nature behaves does not affect the "salvation" of the new nature at all.  The old nature may violate the law of God all the day long, but that does not affect the new nature.  A person may actually have the old nature operating all the time in the business of sin and nothing but sin, but, since it is the old nature, it does not affect his salvation."

[Molly]

Let me leave you with a quote from a book I very much recommend that illustrates the antinomian delusion of dispensationalism.  The book is Wrongly Dividing The Word Of Truth A Critique of Dispensationalism by John Gerstner (Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Publishsers, Inc.) p.249:
"[Dispensationalism] believes that regeneration brings a new divine nature that is separate from the old nature and unaffected by it, and that justification applies only to this new nature.  The old nature contines to sin, and indeed, does nothing but sin, because it is utterly unaffected by sanctification.  But since the dispensationalists do not really believe in the salvation of the sinner (who desperately needs it), but only of the saint (who as a part of God does not need it), he does not care what this old nature does.  How the old nature behaves does not affect the "salvation" of the new nature at all.  The old nature may violate the law of God all the day long, but that does not affect the new nature.  A person may actually have the old nature operating all the time in the business of sin and nothing but sin, but, since it is the old nature, it does not affect his salvation."

This is interesting, and I'm glad you brought this up.  I don't know anything about the various philosophies, but I can see this present in many teachings, this idea of two men standing side by side, one good, one bad.  I think it has to do with the things Paul says about having sin in his members but under no condemnation in the Spirit. How one deals with that will determine their outlook on this.  If we take the Catholic church, for instance, and I only have observations from having Catholic friends, it seems that you can do anything you want as long as you go to confession--well, in the worst case, anyways, and I knew a lot of Catholics who would lead sinful lives but be reassured that confession would make it right.  I also knew Catholics who were the opposite, and very devout so it can cut both ways.  But, the problem is their continual emphasis on sin.

I do think people need to repent of wrongful actions [although it might not be so easy to stop, and might even take a lifetime of struggle], but I also think they should focus on Jesus, not on sin.  That's just my feeling about it.  It's the old golfer's trick--if you focus on the trap and are in fear of it, you will invariably hit the ball into the trap.  Rather, focus on the flag, with the full assurance that when you hit that ball, it's going to land two feet from the hole.  It's impossible to keep sinning if we walk daily with our Lord, and, if we do sin, we know we have such a high Priest who will make intercession for us with the One at the top. So, I don't fear sin so much as I try to do the right thing out of my love for Him--what would Jesus do?  Over time this love works its way into us like yeast into dough, making the whole lump holy. He's already done all the hard work.


Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Thank you reFormer: I will look into it all and I saved your reply to a word doc. for later use of my own. I still believe you to be right about 99.9% of all you said.

Will get back when I have time. Lee

Good to hear you Molly.