End times?

[Barry DuPont]

I left out nothing intentionally out as pertains to an alleged need to leave something out.
I'm speaking with someone who is looking into the first century setting and context.
Thus my intention is only that which is to cover this persons questions as efficiently as possible.

I've already answered to your questions on this matter and on this scripture Doug.

Shame on you!

I could change my tone Doug and meet you in the gutter, belive me. Perhaps better that you stay there alone or nearly alone.
Barry

[Beloved Servant]

Someone is clearly not of the brethren.
Who that someone is — is not the reason of this post.

[Barry DuPont]

Someone is clearly not of the brethren.
Who that someone is — is not the reason of this post.

Could you please explain Beloved Servant?
I did not understand your post.
Blessings Barry

[Beloved Servant]

There is no shame in Christ Jesus.
There's only Grace, Mercy and Forgiveness.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9ArVuqm324&feature=related

[Doug]

2 Tim 2 Weymouth NT
2:16 But from irreligious and frivolous talk hold aloof, for those who indulge in it will proceed from bad to worse in impiety,
2:17 and their teaching will spread like a running sore. Hymenaeus and Philetus are men of that stamp.
2:18 In the matter of the truth they have gone astray, saying that the Resurrection is already past, and so they are overthrowing the faith of some.
2:19 Yet God's solid foundation stands unmoved, bearing this inscription, "The Lord knows those who really belong to Him." And this also, "Let every one who names the Name of the Lord renounce all wickedness."

Consider, if the doctrine of Hymenaeus and Philetus were to suddenly become true after a very few years, would Paul have written as he did?

Would they not rather have been honoured? But instead, Paul heaped shame on their doctrine. For it to be likened to gangrene made it absolutely horrible. A sore or wound affected by gangrene was often treated by amputation of the affected limb. It was ghastly to look at, and smelled awful. That is how Paul characterized their doctrine. Not only that, he said their doctrine would persist, not that it would suddenly become true! And sure enough, it has been revived in our generation by Max King! So Paul's prophecy has been fulfilled! And prophecy fulfilled in modern times throttles hyper-preterism!

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

There is no shame in Christ Jesus.
There's only Grace, Mercy and Forgiveness.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9ArVuqm324&feature=related

Very good indeed, thankyou. And I very much agree.

Some that dwell in the condemnation of others, and speak great swelling words of condmentation can be remided of the shame that they dwell within as their behavior manifests their own consience:

Act 22:24   The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him. 
Act 22:25   And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned? 

Act 22:26   When the centurion heard [that], he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.  
Act 22:27   Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea. 
Act 22:28   And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was [free] born.

Amen.

Barry

[Beloved Servant]

Yes, the scriptures are a mirror to many.

[Pierac]

God's kingdom endures forever. So when is that fufilled? Are you going to insist that "forever" arrived in 70 AD?

Doug

So,
I agree that "his kingdom will never end"; so to me i have to think then; what is "this generation" referring to; or if fulfillment will ever come. 

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then
comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  For He must reign until
He has put all His enemies under His feet.  The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Jesus' reign will end! The Kingdom belongs to the God and Father.


1Co 15:27  For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He (Jesus)  says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident
that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him  (God and Father).  When all things are subjected to Him (God and
Father), then the Son (Jesus)  Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Jesus is calling the chosen to himself in this present age, to reign with Him for 1000 Years.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


Joh 17:2  even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

Col 3:12  So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life
believed.

Yet, the reign ends...and...

Rev 20:5  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Be nice, and have some fun with these thoughts!
Paul

[Beloved Servant]

Yes, the Kingdom is at hand!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: AMEN Paul....His reign must end as He hands everything over to the Father.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

I in You, You in Me and We in Them.

[Zeek]

:cloud9: AMEN Paul....His reign must end as He hands everything over to the Father.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

Luk 1:33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

??

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: It's a mystery.....

1 Corinthians 15:24 KJV
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[jabcat]

Apparently more translational issues involved with that verse.

Luke 1:33 in the Concordant Version has it;  "and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

The Concordant Commentary says;  "The reign of Christ is for the eons, a long but limited period. He then gives up the kingdom to God the Father, so that the kingdom itself is endless (1Co.15:24). The negative is the only means used in the Scriptures to denote endlessness."

The Christian Bible (1992) has it;  "..and He will reign over the house of Jacob for the remaining ages;  and there will be no completion of His Kingdom."

[jabcat]

The Christian Bible has I Cor. 15:24 and parts onward through 28 as;  "..after this is the Completion, when He is going to deliver the Kingdom over to His God and Father, when He has made every other supreme chief and every other authority and power vanish.  For He [Yesu] has to be reigning until He has placed all His enemies under His feet.  Now when everything has been made subservient to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subservient to the One who has made everything subservient to Him, so that God might be in everything everywhere.     :2thumbs:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Also.......1Cor. 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: LOL, we had the same thought, Jab..... :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Funny...maybe not an 'oops' but an 'amen'.   :bigGrin:

[reFORMer]

I left out nothing intentionally out as pertains to an alleged need to leave something out.
I'm speaking with someone who is looking into the first century setting and context.
Thus my intention is only that which is to cover this persons questions as efficiently as possible.

I've already answered to your questions on this matter and on this scripture Doug.

Shame on you!

I could change my tone Doug and meet you in the gutter, belive me. Perhaps better that you stay there alone or nearly alone.
Barry

Well, sign me up for gutter detail then.  What you left out has very much been a significant concern with your doctrine...which, may I add, in some particulars is to me "Songs from Lala Land."  You seem to be denying the resurrection as an immediate goal for us, that, though it happened to Jesus (and I wonder, just what do you think has happened to Jesus?) yet, somehow, it is only a matter of believing it has already happened for everybody?

Again, I wonder what you think the resurrection is.

"...who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some. ((2 Ti 2:18, Concordant Literal Translation)

That you omitted it was rather too obvious!

[reFORMer]

Reformer: I know your a mod, and I "know" that you know lots more than  I, but we do have Lots of differant thinkings,,

you said, "Post 190 as long as we have an Adamic body of flesh & blood"

Try this thought , What If it was all changed at JC's Rezz day?? and the Adamic body & Nature is NO MORE...???  (WHAT IF )

Just think about that angle. Because I believe that all that Adam brought into the world called death ended at that day above. ALL was dragged into life then/union with God the Father and all Adam did God undid in one body of Life and Love, His Anointed.  What IF???

It changed in the person of Jesus Who is called the Seed.  Now it must actually come forth for the rest of the crop.  Not only the Head, but the body of Christ must come into immortal and incorruptible life in their embodiment.  The earnest of our inheritance is not the inheritance.  We may have the mind of Christ, but we so little draw on it.    We are incapable of seeing Him AS HE IS and living.  Yes, all these things can be applied metaphorically to our spiritual life now, but they must affect the realm of physical matter and energy to be fully brought to pass.  We must be changed to no longer merely have the word of wisdom or knowledge, but the mind of Christ in omniscience.  "When this mortal shall have put on the immortal" what "gifts of healings" promised will manifest as a body that cannot get sick and in which there is no more death or pain.  We must be physically changed from a 1st Adam body (homo sapiens) into a body of deathless glory like the last Adam Jesus changed and is now the New Man (homo novae), a quickening Spirit.

Ok, I do agree that there is alot of things we as being, some with less light/love are progressing to a better or higher level of understanding, as beings, we don't know we have been made alive, so most live a life of what "was" called sin,

What was called sin is still sin.  Simple.  "I am God and I change not."  The change is for those deceived who dispose of the Words of Life, calling them "old school," or that "we are not under law" so now, they say, we can do as a gift from God what they thought was sin in olden times.

But how many things of the old school things do not apply to His children today and how much does apply to his children today.

I would like a short version of what you think applies today, If you use your mind and heart-being, make a short list of all those things (Rules/Laws) that you 'think' applies to all humankind, that is a requirement to be IN Christ, Here and Now in this life...

I personally would like NON bible verses i.e. leave out your referances to the bible, cause with out them, I can tell more clearly where the thought is coming from/your being. I know the Bibles fairly good too, I have them all, and I have E-Sword for one, and ALL the links.  lets say your on the street talking to a person, and make the list above out of YOU.

Of course you may look up all you need too, but say it from you and not cut and paste style.

I do have no problem with being wrong, I have been there so many times that I was beginning to think it was my home.

so lets just be respectful to each others beliefs with out any meaness and all will be well....         everything out of Love... is good.

SORRY MY SPELL CHECKER ISN'T WORKING...

LEE DAMBOISE II

I know part of it is all you accept as applying to us is a few verses in Ephesians, and those may be in question.  Everything else is to those racially Jewish (who actually aren't there.)  Beyond that, what's your problem with Scripture?  That is really one of the few significant things we are concerned with to veriify as reliable.  "All of Scripture for all of life" is a motto to which I subscribe.  The writings of the Law and Prophets are as specially inspired and relevant today, if not more so, as they ever were.  Like Paul in Galatians says, " Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?" (Ga 4:21, CLT)  Rightly understood, the law is established by our intimacy with God.  "Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law." (Rm 3:31, CLT)  "The law is for the lawless."  "Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets)..." (Rm 3:1, CLT) See, our being made the righteousnes of God in Him is not through a legalistic work.  While we are not under law, it attests to what we are entering into.  "Exempted from Christ were you who are being justified in law. You fall out of grace." (Ga 5:4, CLT)

As I sought to illustrate earlier, those whos get rid of God's law word in Scripture because, they say, "We are not under law, but under grace..." make their own laws.  This is how so many develop into antichrists.  They reject the anointing on those who retain the Words of Life God gave in Scipture, claiming this liberation from God's Word is part of how they're going on to bigger and better things, so they themselves are of the true anointing and those who hold to God's values in the Bible are out of step with the Spirit.  They are to be fought against as hindering the progress of humanity while the enlightened  deal with Scripture as only  unreliable, for people of an earlier less enlightened era.  So men align with the spirit of antichrist, fighting those who keep Jesus'  word, while they promote their own law.  Commonly this is that sin is no more.  What previously was sin is now approved of their God.

[Barry DuPont]

I left out nothing intentionally out as pertains to an alleged need to leave something out.
I'm speaking with someone who is looking into the first century setting and context.
Thus my intention is only that which is to cover this persons questions as efficiently as possible.

I've already answered to your questions on this matter and on this scripture Doug.

Shame on you!

I could change my tone Doug and meet you in the gutter, belive me. Perhaps better that you stay there alone or nearly alone.
Barry

Well, sign me up for gutter detail then.  What you left out has very much been a significant concern with your doctrine...which, may I add, in some particulars is to me "Songs from Lala Land."  You seem to be denying the resurrection as an immediate goal for us, that, though it happened to Jesus (and I wonder, just what do you think has happened to Jesus?) yet, somehow, it is only a matter of believing it has already happened for everybody?

Again, I wonder what you think the resurrection is.

"...who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some. ((2 Ti 2:18, Concordant Literal Translation)

That you omitted it was rather too obvious!

Have you been reading my posts Reformer? Can I question now the honesty and convenient omission on your behalf of the fact that I've already discussed 2 Ti 2:18 several times and done so quite openly and evidently with no attempt to hide it by any means whatsoever.
And why are we wasting our time even going here? Because people want to debate and not discuss when they try to win an argument.

In debate any small advantage to be gained through any means of discrediting is to be taken advantage of.

As per my intentions: 
Why would I discuss the verse openly with everyone and then leave it out with someone that is not even challenging preterism, at least not thus far but rather is openly discussing the context of first century Judaizers?
Also in the very post you are sighting I mention clearly with no reservation that the Judaizers were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. Why then leave out the verse as if there is anything to hide? What kind of sense does that make?

If anyone wishes to debate the matter I would hope that they would open a designated debate thread to debate the matter and I'll join in to try and keep this thread in a little better standing .
I personally would rather not see this thread locked up by mods because it got out of hand because people were unable to simply discuss.

If you want my view of the resurrection Reformer, just ask.
If the subject matter is taboo then ban it. 

Resurrection:
Resurrection is out of sin death. Christ was the last Adam.

What is your understanding of resurrection?
Why did Jesus have human flesh and bone and eat food when he was resurrected?
Why did he have all his scares from his mode of death?
In your view is this, what will happen to you when you are resurrected?

Blessings and peace
Barry

[Barry DuPont]

In scripture the kingdom is handed over to the Father.
There is an "end".
The reign of Christ has no end.

The handing of the kingdom over to the Father does not end the reign of Christ. It ends the reign of Christ over his enemies. The presumption that one ends the other in totality is not present in the context.

1Cr 15:25   For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26   The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] {sin}death.  
1Cr 15:27   For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. {IE the Father is not made subject to the Son}  
1Cr 15:28   And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him {God is love} that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.  

The reign of Christ then continues as one subject to the Father. The purpose of that continued reign is to reign in Unity or the oneness of love.

The meaning of Reign is love. Within the transition it is good that concurred evil. It is love that won over. The one who loved most is the one who reigned until the enemies were destroyed through that love and then he reigns by that love forever.
1 Cor. 15:25-28 is a love story.
Barry

[Doug]

In scripture the kingdom is handed over to the Father.
There is an "end".
The reign of Christ has no end.

The handing of the kingdom over to the Father does not end the reign of Christ. It ends the reign of Christ over his enemies. The presumption that one ends the other in totality is not present in the context.

1Cr 15:25   For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26   The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] {sin}death.  

The scripture does not say "sin" death, it says "death." Evidently those promoting the doctrine of Hymenaeus and Philetus, that says the Resurrection is already past, have to wrest this scripture in a vain attempt to avoid the implication that it is about a resurrection from the grave, such as Jesus and the apostles taught. Apparently they hope that by changing "death" to "{sin} death" they can dispense with the central promise of the gospel! But it is misleading.

John 5:26-29
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

Jesus shewed what "death" he destroys when he raised up Lazarus, who had been in the grave four days.

The gospel Jesus taught was a "great light" that shines for those who are "in the region and shadow of death" or who are mortal, who have to face death, which is all of us.

Mat. 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

As Joel said, the sun, which is called a "great light" in Genesis, would be turned to darkness because of false teachings that obscure the truth. This was fulfilled in the early centuries of the church as church fathers merged Plato's doctrine of an immortal soul with the teachings of the apostles. Its fruits are with us today.

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Barry's ideas about the resurrection being already past contribute to the darkness!

Doug

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Reformer you said in post 1027
Now it must come froth for the rest of the crop, not only the Head but the body of Christ must come into immortal and incorruptible life in their embodiment.

I have to ask if you are 1) saying that all people have to work/earn/or do something to get this immortality-incorrutpible life in their embodiment?

2) as to the above condition, after lets say 50-100 years after Adam was in the ground, What did ALL mankind have to do (work/earn/ or do to get death) as their condition?

I still think that the Christ brought all mankind/things out of death with him when God the Father Rose Him out of the grave.

I personally do not believe in a 1000 yr rain, as taught by christians, I believe that Christ is appearing to everyone in their own order, from rezz day to the day that he hands over the kingdom to the father, and that "could be " a million years.

[Barry DuPont]

Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 
Jhn 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 
Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 

Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?

Barry