End times?

[Doug]

OTOH, the "Judaizers" were from among those who believed, but who still cling to their traditions, and tried to convince other believers that they should keep the law of Moses too. They are mentioned in Acts 15.

This is the only wrong word in your statement because in today's times I call those mentioned above
Catholics
Baptist
Mormens
pen
etc...

Anyone who has the belief that you have to follow [ dont kill, dont lie, dont steal, etc... as a rule system to get to heaven

Lee

the Thing is Lee
they serve and are serving many "gods"  and many  divisions

 Jesus said ONE  GOD  AND THIS COMMAND . if you do this one thing  than all those other  things will  cease  ...

if you keep the greatest command given of Jesus Christ

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:  

Mar 12:30   And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.  


Mar 12:31   And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.  


Mar 12:32   And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:  


Mar 12:33   And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.  

Mar 12:34   And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question].

Keeping the law of Moses cannot earn us eternal life, or make us righteous. The law is a schoolmaster, Paul said. It reveals what sin is. After we leave school, do we forget what we learned there? No.

Paul said the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." [Rom. 8:4]

Paul said "if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." [Gal. 2:21] Yet, he also said "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." [Rom. 7:12] And Paul taught, "Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;" [Eph. 6:2]

David called God's law "the truth."

Psalm 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

He said it was his delight.

Psa. 119:174
I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

According to Paul, circumcision of the flesh does not profit, but he did not mean there are no commandments that apply to us.  

1 Cor. 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Jesus said: "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." [John 15:12]

Also see 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:22,24; 1 John 5:3; Rev. 14:12.

Doug

[Doug]

1) If resurrection was out of sin-death as I believe that it was in the end of the law of sin and death, in the end of the ministry of sin and death then Paul did defend that very point throughout 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus. He did this by addressing the overall teaching of these Judaizers. Hymenaeus and Philetus were (probably converted) Judizers.
Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching the law for salvation.

There is no evidence of this in scripture. But that claim appears to be an obsession of the hyper-preterists. They so desperately want to make all prophecy apply to the Jews in 70 AD, they cannot be objective or balanced in their treatment of scripture. IMO

The Imperial Bible-dictionary
By Patrick Fairbairn

HYMENÊ'US, or more correctly HYMENAEUS, a heretical teacher in the church of Ephesus. He is mentioned by the apostle first, more generally, as, along with Alexander, losing a good conscience, and in consequence making shipwreck of faith, 1 Ti. i. 20; and again more particularly, as, along with Philetus, giving vent to profane and vain babblings, and erring in respect to the faith, by saying that the resurrection is past already, 2 Ti. ii. 16-18. There is no reason to doubt that it is the same person who is referred to in both these passages under the name of Hymenaeus. And though the description is very brief respecting his errors, yet the probability is, that he belonged to the class who in the early church gave way to the Gnostic tendency, as to the inherent evil of matter, and held that the only resurrection which should be looked for was the change that passed over the spiritual part of our natures. A tendency in this direction prevailed very extensively in the first ages of the gospel, and gave rise to many of the corruptions which followed; and it became the apostle to denounce it with earnestness from the first. In the former of the two passages referred to above, the apostle speaks of having delivered the parties over to Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme; that is, he had solemnly cast them out of the visible church, the proper sphere of the Spirit's agency, and sent them back to the world, the proper sphere of Satan's, with the design possibly of suffering special inflictions of evil from this adverse power. (See Satan.) But it was still if rightly viewed, for good--for correction and reproof in righteousness, not for final rejection. But whether it proved in reality so or not, we are not informed.

They as the Jews then were teaching that the temple would not be destroyed and that Law obedience was necessary for the Gentiles.

What would make them think the temple was about to be destroyed? Hmm... another example of "vain babblings" of the hyper preterists... IMO

2 Tim. 2:16
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

The Judizers:
The Judaizers wished to bring the Gentile Christians under Israel's "natural things". They were however supposed to be partakers of Israel's spiritual things (Act 21:25, Rom 15:27).

Some of these Judaizers presented themselves as (alleged) apostles (2 Cor. 11:13).
They claimed biblical authority:

Col 2:18 RSV  Let no one disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind

The worship of Angles is covered in Hebrews chapters 1-2.

Hbr 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.  
Hbr 2:2   For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;  
Hbr 2:3   How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];  
Hbr 2:4   God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?  
Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

The worship of Angels was putting the old covenant in front of the work of Christ on the cross. This was the teaching of the Judaizers. They used the old testament scriptures, thus falsely "dividing the word of God", and they twisted the teachings of Paul.  They were Paul's thorn in the flesh. (See one of my previous posts)

Col 2:14   Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;  
Col 2:15   [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.  
Col 2:16   Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:  
Col 2:17   Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

They used pressure tactics and were persecutors (Gal. 2:12-13) and did this themselves to not be persecuted:
Gal 6:12   As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.  
Gal 6:13   For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

To ignore that this is the problem in Ephesus when Paul wrote to Timothy is to ignore a lot of clearly visible information. We'll get to that shortly.

The natural things of Israel that the Judaizers taught the Gentiles is circumcision, new moon, Sabbath day, their food and drink practices and so on.

Because they were alleged "Christians" they also taught some other points.
At some point they began to teach that the day of Christ had already come or already arrived.

Young's literal:
2Th 2:1 And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him,  
2Th 2:2 that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;

See what Paul is getting at here:
1Th 2:9   For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.
1Th 2:10   Ye [are] witnesses, and God [also], how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

He is making a comparison with the Judaizers who are doing this:
Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:  
Tts 1:11   Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.  
Tts 1:12   One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.  
Tts 1:13   This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;  
Tts 1:14   Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.  

The heart of the Judaizer is betraying them and Paul is making a point of it.
1Th 2:14   For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:  
1Th 2:15   Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:  
1Th 2:16   Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.  

These are the converts of the Judaizers in Thessalonica. If Paul was to name them they would have Greek names.
The ones he is mentioning of their own countrymen will very much be affected by the wrath about to be.  

Now of course the Judaizers are not the only problem that the church was facing. There is a Gentile separatist movement as well (Rom 11:18) and other issues as well. However time will not permit. The Judaziers are however the predominate problem. They are the messengers of Satan, the contrasting problem of law verses grace the natural and the spiritual in "covenantal" warfare in the transition of the covenantal ages.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  
1Th 5:2   For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  
1Th 5:3   For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.  
1Th 5:4   But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.  
1Th 5:5   Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.  
1Th 5:6   Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.  
1Th 5:7   For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.  

But contextually speaking there are ones among them that are clearly and distinctly saying "peace and safety".
They are saying it by saying that the day of Christ had already come.
In saying that the day of Christ had come already and the that resurrection had already come they are claiming that the day of wrath that Paul announced is not coming. That Jerusalem will not be destroyed that the temple will continue to stand that sacrifice will continue that the law is eternal in natural things.
They thus shipwreck the faith of some.

Another point that they are teaching as a consequence of this position they have taken is that they forbid marriage.
They have misunderstood the teaching of Jesus in regards to their being no marriage of giving in marriage in the resurrection. [We can cover the misunderstanding in another post perhaps]

What kind of problems is this causing in Ephesus at this time?
The women are being targeted with this preaching just like Eve was targeted by the serpent.

Now read this:
1Ti 5:14   I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.  
1Ti 5:15   For some are already turned aside after Satan.  

1Ti 2:11 Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection,  
1Ti 2:12 and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,  
1Ti 2:13 for Adam was first formed, then Eve,  
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came,  
1Ti 2:15 and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

To exercise rule over the man how?
To teach what?

The teaching of the Judaizers!! Paul never changes the subject from the beginning of 1 Timothy 1:1-2:15.

The Judaizers are destroying family life by their teachings.
Are the Judaizers the only reason why family could have some problems in the NT scriptures? Of course not.
But it's a problem here and Paul is addressing the problem and giving instructions to deal with the problem.

1 Timothy 2:11 is not an eternal comprehensive teaching about women and men. It is Paul dealing with a specific problem and how Paul sees the Judaizers as the messengers of Satan targeting the women with their teachings.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.  
2Ti 3:2   For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,  
2Ti 3:3   Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,  
2Ti 3:4   Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;  
2Ti 3:5   Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.  
{They cannot rightly divide the word of God. They teach the law but not lawfully}
2Ti 3:6   For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
{They are not silly because they are women, they are silly because as one's targeted they then believe the silliness of the teaching of the Judaizers}
2Ti 3:7   Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.  
2Ti 3:8   Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.  
2Ti 3:9   But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was.

It's not a "woman" problem, but neither is Paul shy to deal with it from any and all angles that it is coming from and presenting itself.


HOW was "their folly" about to be "manifest unto all [men]"??
Jerusalem was about to be destroyed and they were about to be "taught not to blaspheme".  

Even some of the qualifications of the elders or bishops and deacons was built around disqualifying the Judaizers from such positions in the Churches.
"not greedy of filthy lucre"
"not covetous"
"the husband of one wife"

If anyone is interesting in anything written here other than to just trying to find any way at all to discredit, let me know ok?
Not that I mind, it's just that there is no sense in boar people for nothing.  

There is a ton of more info like this on "end times". But no sense in presenting it if no one is really interested. And a lot more on the Judaizers too. Also the Gentile separatist movement as well.  

Blessings and love,
Barry

[Doug]

that the body did not participate in the blessedness of the future life, but that salvation consisted in the soul's complete deliverance from all contact with a material world and a material body.

:cloud9: I found this part particularly interesting if it is indeed a part of gnosticism, because basically the only way the soul is delivered from all contact of a material body, IS TO DIE.

How many in the churches see as their hope DYING and "going to heaven"; who knew that was a form of gnosticism. Instead of, Christ in you, the hope of glory and the glory that is getting ready to be revealed in us, ie. mortality swallowed up of immortality.Blessings...

The NT seems to emphasize that our bodies are to be changed in the resurrection, and the dead are to be raised from their graves. This is directly opposed to gnosticism which assumes humans already have an "immortal soul" as proposed by Plato.

A comment from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
Christianity and Gnosticism
The ascetic notion of immediate revelation through divine knowledge sought to find an absolute transcendence in a Supreme Deity. This concept is very important in identifying what evidence there is pertaining to Gnosticism[56] in the NT, which would influence orthodox teaching.[57] Main Gnostic beliefs that differ from Biblical teachings include: the creator as a lower being ['Demiurge'] and not a Supreme Deity; scripture having a deep, hidden meaning whose true message could only be understood through "secret wisdom";[58] and Jesus as a spirit that "seemed"[59] to be human, leading to a belief in the incarnation.[60] The traditional "formula which enshrines the Incarnation...is that in some sense God, without ceasing to be God, was made man...which is a prima facie ['at first sight' a] contradiction in theological terms...the [NT] nowhere reflects on the virgin birth of Jesus as witnessing to the conjunction of deity and manhood in His person...the deity of Jesus was not...clearly stated in words and [the book of] Acts gives no hint that it was".[61] This philosophy[62] was known by the so-called "Church Fathers" such as Origen, Irenaeus, and Tertullian.[63]

At its core, Gnosticism formed a speculative interest in the relationship of the oneness of God to the 'triplicity' of his manifestations. It seems to have taken Neoplatonic metaphysics of substance and hypostases ["being"][64] as a departure point for interpreting the relationship of the "Father" to the "Son"[65] in its attempt to define a new theology.[66] This would point to the infamous theological controversies by Arius[67] against followers of the Greek Alexandrian school,[68] headed by Athanasius.[69]

When John reported that blood and water flowed from the body of Jesus at his crucifixion, John 19:34, his comment confirming this in v. 35 is thought by some scholars to have been intended to counter then prevalent Gnostic teachings that Jesus was not really human, but a spirit or deity who only "appeared" as a human.

From THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm
When Gnosticism came in touch with Christianity, which must have happened almost immediately on its appearance, Gnosticism threw herself with strange rapidity into Christian forms of thought, borrowed its nomenclature, acknowledged Jesus as Saviour of the world, simulated its sacraments, pretended to be an esoteric revelation of Christ and His Apostles, flooded the world with apocryphal Gospels, and Acts, and Apocalypses, to substantiate its claim. As Christianity grew within and without the Roman Empire, Gnosticism spread as a fungus at its root, and claimed to be the only true form of Christianity, unfit, indeed, for the vulgar crowd, but set apart for the gifted and the elect. So rank was its poisonous growth that there seemed danger of its stifling Christianity altogether, and the earliest Fathers devoted their energies to uprooting it. Though in reality the spirit of Gnosticism is utterly alien to that of Christianity, it then seemed to the unwary merely a modification or refinement thereof. When domiciled on Greek soil, Gnosticism, slightly changing its barbarous and Seminitic terminology and giving its "emanatons" and "syzygies" Greek names, sounded somewhat like neo-Platonism, thought it was strongly repudiated by Plotinus. In Egypt the national worship left its mark more on Gnostic practice than on its theories.

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug,
Paul never compares his then present dieing with Christ, being then buried with Christ and his then being raised up with Christ on a physical flesh level.
The body of Christ raised was flesh and bone and Luke makes not bones about it LOL ROFL! Sorry, bad one :)

Here is an example:
Phl 3:10   That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 
Phl 3:11   If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.  

There imo seems to be a real reluctance by some to see that this is a spiritual but quite literal dieing and resurrection.

And then we have to ask how it is possible that Paul in defending against the Judaizers who taught that the day of Christ had already come and that the resurrection had already come could have done so without Paul defending vigorously and clearly a physical mode of manifestation which you Doug seem to be suggesting.
"Did you get your replacement body yet?" Would have been an easy enough question to point out the stupidity of the Judaziers teaching.
Unless of course both Paul and the Judaziers taught a none physical resurrection. Then that would explain it.
Blessings Barry

[Doug]

The worship of Angles is covered in Hebrews chapters 1-2.
...
The worship of Angels was putting the old covenant in front of the work of Christ on the cross. This was the teaching of the Judaizers. They used the old testament scriptures, thus falsely "dividing the word of God", and they twisted the teachings of Paul.  They were Paul's thorn in the flesh. (See one of my previous posts)

Jesus quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Peter quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. James quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Paul quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. The Old Testament scriptures were all the early church had! But they also had the Spirit of Christ which taught them how to interpret the OT.

If anyone is interesting in anything written here other than to just trying to find any way at all to discredit, let me know ok?
Not that I mind, it's just that there is no sense in boar people for nothing.  

There is a ton of more info like this on "end times". But no sense in presenting it if no one is really interested. And a lot more on the Judaizers too. Also the Gentile separatist movement as well.

Since the OP was interested in what prophecy says about the end times, and how prophecy applies today, it does seem you have nothing to offer, since you believe Max King's doctrine that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD. Your posts and lengthy quotes appear to be a kind of "flood" of misinformation. IMO

Why don't you address the issues I raised? You keep moving on to something different. You avoid addressing the objections I presented. My guess is you can't. For example, you said you might post an explanation for why the Mount of Olives was not divided in 70 AD, and half of it move to the north, and half of it to the south, forming a great valley between, where the Jews could flee, as Zechariah's prophecy said, and why Jesus did not fight against the enemies of the Jews who were camped around Jerusalem in 70 AD. And why the horses and camels and asses and mules of the Roman armies were not struck with a plague, etc. But so far, you have reneged. I doubt very much that you have an interpretation. If so, why not present it?

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Doug........Then I guess I'm a "gnostic", because I KNOW the soul survives death, but not in a glorified or resurrected state. All religion has a fragment of the truth, however twisted, which is why Adam was told he could eat of ALL THE TREES in the garden, EXCEPT the one; I guess that is their fragment. Don't feel like explaining that today, but there are a couple of points on the other I would like to add to.

The two things that were a red flag (as in, made sense) to me were the description of what they had distorted eating as a canker or gangrene, and the fact those that were delivered to Satan, "to learn not to blaspheme".

I had revelation given to me in an experience with ministering to someone. This person (I'll call them "A") had disobeyed a word from the Lord that they were to cut themselves off from familiar contact with another, citing "have no fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness". Christ is the fruit of our womb/heart.

The unfruitful work of darkness was someone that refused to repent of their traditions of men, among them, to accept that the baptism of the Spirit and the gifts of the HG were for today. By "A" cutting themselves off in obedience to the Lord from this person, it was making the person deal with their traditions of men and look deeper into the Word, in short, it was being used to bring repentance, and it was working.

Soon, however, "A" was manipulated by guilt and the appearance realm of what looked "good" in her dealings with the person, and carnally reasoned that she was "being mean" and "not loving" to the person by not having fellowship with this person and being at their beck and call 24/7, so "A" disobeyed the Lord before His work in the other person brought the fruit of obedience and the LIVING GOD relationship to them.

The Lord was not pleased and the Word delivered was a hard one, saying that "A's" disobedience was not love at all, but HATE, because had she truly loved as He loves , she would have allowed herself to bear the "shame" of APPEARING "mean and not loving" for a season, if it meant that the person would repent of their traditions to serve the LIVING GOD. His Spirit IS love, therefore WHATEVER He tells you to do, IS LOVE, regardless of how it looks in the appearance realm of carnally minded men.

In short, "A" refused to pick up her cross and follow Him and threw this "cross" down and resumed the former close relationship with the person. The person, having gotten what they wanted, no longer sought the truth of the matter and resumed their traditions of men, only to die in that state.

So "A" was told that repentance needed to come from her, because hate and murder being as the same sin, she had effectively "murdered" that person in the spirit. And since she chose to remain under the law by disobeying the Spirit, then the law demanded the judgment of death to murderers, so it was vital that she repented to bring restoration back to her relationship with the living God. Hate of another, is in essence, the hate of the body (body here used as a corporate expression), that also plays out in the natural body, as the natural body turning on itself. Both cancer and gangrene are the body turning on itself, in a sense, to destroy itself.

We either walk in the Spirit or we walk in the flesh, and the flesh is still subject to the law as long as IT lives. When He said my words would never pass away, He was speaking what He heard the FATHER speak, and the FATHER spoke the law that governs the flesh, not just the words in red we like to think is all He said.

So try as much as some like to, in their efforts to do away with the law having any application to us today, it does not work, because the law "runs" side by side with the Spirit until ALL be accomplished. If you think not, take a look at the curses on those that walked in the flesh in Deut. 28 and see if any of them look familiar to your life's circumstances or that of your generations.

As many as walk in the SPIRIT, those are the sons of God. Not walking in the Spirit, as Peter illustrated, brings us back down into the waters below the firmament, and all BELOW the firmament are subject to the law that governs the flesh, EXCEPT they walk in the Spirit. The reason being, walking in the Spirit is walking above the waters below the firmament, and the firmament the Word says, IS HEAVEN.

And the second point here, was to learn not blaspheme the Holy Ghost. The reason it will not be forgiven HERE is if there is no repentance before death; the reason it will not be forgiven in the next age, is because it was not forgiven here due to no repentance, and therefore in the next age, there is no physical body to be baptized in the Spirit, so they missed that opportunity to have their "robe" (the soul is the "robe" of His Spirit which is within; the baptism in the HG cleans the robe) cleansed of all spot and wrinkle. It does NOT mean, they are unforgiven eternally. Blessings...

[Barry DuPont]

The worship of Angles is covered in Hebrews chapters 1-2.
...
The worship of Angels was putting the old covenant in front of the work of Christ on the cross. This was the teaching of the Judaizers. They used the old testament scriptures, thus falsely "dividing the word of God", and they twisted the teachings of Paul.  They were Paul's thorn in the flesh. (See one of my previous posts)

Jesus quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Peter quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. James quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Paul quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. The Old Testament scriptures were all the early church had! But they also had the Spirit of Christ which taught them how to interpret the OT.

If anyone is interesting in anything written here other than to just trying to find any way at all to discredit, let me know ok?
Not that I mind, it's just that there is no sense in boar people for nothing.  

There is a ton of more info like this on "end times". But no sense in presenting it if no one is really interested. And a lot more on the Judaizers too. Also the Gentile separatist movement as well.

Since the OP was interested in what prophecy says about the end times, and how prophecy applies today, it does seem you have nothing to offer, since you believe Max King's doctrine that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD. Your posts and lengthy quotes appear to be a kind of "flood" of misinformation. IMO

Why don't you address the issues I raised? You keep moving on to something different. You avoid addressing the objections I presented. My guess is you can't. For example, you said you might post an explanation for why the Mount of Olives was not divided in 70 AD, and half of it move to the north, and half of it to the south, forming a great valley between, where the Jews could flee, as Zechariah's prophecy said, and why Jesus did not fight against the enemies of the Jews who were camped around Jerusalem in 70 AD. And why the horses and camels and asses and mules of the Roman armies were not struck with a plague, etc. But so far, you have reneged. I doubt very much that you have an interpretation. If so, why not present it?

Doug

The reason why I don't address much of the info that you are putting forward Doug is simply because much of it comes in the format of a "straw man" characteristic. Paint a picture of what I'm saying which is not entirely correct and then tare down that picture in the hope of discrediting.
Many of the allegations of those whom you copy and paste are false and I do not believe them. I don't have time to refute every false allegation and or over generalized statements of everyone you copy and paste here.

Quote:
Jesus quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Peter quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. James quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Paul quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. The Old Testament scriptures were all the early church had! But they also had the Spirit of Christ which taught them how to interpret the OT.
End quote.

Fine, but what does that have to do with anything at all? At least that is what I'm thinking. Why answer this is also what I'm thinking?
The point remains, the Judizers spoke as ones of biblical authority. And that fact remains. They spoke as the apostles did using the scriptures to make their case that the law was salvation.

Take for example your earlier statement on the Church being married with Christ. I'm thinking "of course, never said the contrary". What does that have to do with what the Judaizers were teaching in "forbidding marriage"? Imo nothing because that is not the topic. The Judaizers were teaching that marriage as husband and wife had ended. And we see it in Paul's response to the problems among the women in Ephesus as per Paul's writing to Timothy about women's conduct.  

Another early post of yours dealt with the resurrection and spoke about the church was a building of people. Of course, but I sill don't see the connection to the problem of Resurrection as you first indicated from your position on 1 Cor. 5:1-5. Unless I can see the connection whether that be my own mistake or your mistake I don't have the time to answer what I see in off topic.
So then try and connect the dots for me and I'll try ok?

Also sometimes your approach is imo quite offensive. I've seen at least 2 other people tell you this. So why respond to that kind of stuff. I mean even when I nicely brought it to your attention you threw it back worse in my face. Then you got moderated.
You are anxious to discredit me and my views. I can live with that, no problem. But doesn't mean I won't ignore what I see is offensive. That's my prerogative.

I was under the opinion that my quite long post did indeed make a very good case of what I've been saying about the Judaizers in the end times setting of the fist century. The very things that you have clanged.  
If you wish to exchange thoughts with me then do so. And I'll do my best.

Love and blessings
Barry

[Barry DuPont]

:cloud9: Doug........Then I guess I'm a "gnostic", because I KNOW the soul survives death, but not in a glorified or resurrected state. All religion has a fragment of the truth, however twisted, which is why Adam was told he could eat of ALL THE TREES in the garden, EXCEPT the one; I guess that is their fragment. Don't feel like explaining that today, but there are a couple of points on the other I would like to add to.
Blessings...

Hey Cardinal.
Does the soul need to survive death when the spirit of a man returns to God?

Maybe it does maybe not. But is that the subject at hand?
Is that the meaning of resurrection?
Does that harmonize the scriptures?
Does that disprove a first century end of  all things?

How badly do we have to have that soul? :)
Maybe that is the question?
It's the question I have often asked of God.
The answer I got is "your mine"

Good enough for me.

Blessings Barry

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Whom God hath joined together (soul and spirit) let no man put asunder. Yet man keeps doing it by refusing to believe the promises. But fear not, for David said, the Lord will not suffer my SOUL to stay in "hell" (separation from God).

The spirit returns to the One that sent it. The soul stays trapped in whatever was not overcome while it still operated thru a physical body, UNTIL the resurrection, which in essence is the soul coming into union with the spirit, IN HIM. Wherever two or more are gathered in my name/nature, there I am in the midst of you.

Salvation is not a one time thing does all; it is a process, as we are saved (spirit/outer court), we are being saved (soul/inner court), and we shall be saved (body/Holy of Holies).

Now if this is still going on, and it is obvious that it is, you tell me; does this negate a first century fulfillment of ALL things? The way was made for all to be fulfilled IN SEASON, the firstfruits of that generation received what was allowed during that time, but as the body can only follow the head, then the body has been following the head all this time, ie. every man in his own season. Blessings....

[jabcat]

Yeah, if there must be labels, I'm probably a partial preterist.  I do believe many things were fulfilled in 70 A.D., many things Jesus talked about to the Sad's and Phar's.  However, I also believe there are MANY, MANY things to still be fulfilled, and in fact, are occurring every day.  IMO, there's still a resurrection to look forward to, living even more in His presence than we are now, etc.  That's how I understand it, anyway.  Paul sure seemed to be looking forward a lot  :bigGrin:.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I agree, Jab..... :thumbsup:

[Doug]

The worship of Angles is covered in Hebrews chapters 1-2.
...
The worship of Angels was putting the old covenant in front of the work of Christ on the cross. This was the teaching of the Judaizers. They used the old testament scriptures, thus falsely "dividing the word of God", and they twisted the teachings of Paul.  They were Paul's thorn in the flesh. (See one of my previous posts)

Jesus quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Peter quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. James quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Paul quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. The Old Testament scriptures were all the early church had! But they also had the Spirit of Christ which taught them how to interpret the OT.

If anyone is interesting in anything written here other than to just trying to find any way at all to discredit, let me know ok?
Not that I mind, it's just that there is no sense in boar people for nothing.  

There is a ton of more info like this on "end times". But no sense in presenting it if no one is really interested. And a lot more on the Judaizers too. Also the Gentile separatist movement as well.

Since the OP was interested in what prophecy says about the end times, and how prophecy applies today, it does seem you have nothing to offer, since you believe Max King's doctrine that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD. Your posts and lengthy quotes appear to be a kind of "flood" of misinformation. IMO

Why don't you address the issues I raised? You keep moving on to something different. You avoid addressing the objections I presented. My guess is you can't. For example, you said you might post an explanation for why the Mount of Olives was not divided in 70 AD, and half of it move to the north, and half of it to the south, forming a great valley between, where the Jews could flee, as Zechariah's prophecy said, and why Jesus did not fight against the enemies of the Jews who were camped around Jerusalem in 70 AD. And why the horses and camels and asses and mules of the Roman armies were not struck with a plague, etc. But so far, you have reneged. I doubt very much that you have an interpretation. If so, why not present it?

Doug

The reason why I don't address much of the info that you are putting forward Doug is simply because much of it comes in the format of a "straw man" characteristic. Paint a picture of what I'm saying which is not entirely correct and then tare down that picture in the hope of discrediting.

Not true at all. I have used the quote feature provided by the forum, so your words are accurately reproduced. I do no "painting pictures" of what you say. Hmm... Maybe you just don't like your own words?  :Sparkletooth:

Many of the allegations of those whom you copy and paste are false and I do not believe them. I don't have time to refute every false allegation and or over generalized statements of everyone you copy and paste here.

These are by learned scholars, who seem much more balanced, and scholarly in their approach than you. IMO

Quote:
Jesus quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Peter quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. James quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Paul quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. The Old Testament scriptures were all the early church had! But they also had the Spirit of Christ which taught them how to interpret the OT.
End quote.

Fine, but what does that have to do with anything at all? At least that is what I'm thinking. Why answer this is also what I'm thinking?
The point remains, the Judizers spoke as ones of biblical authority. And that fact remains. They spoke as the apostles did using the scriptures to make their case that the law was salvation.

Except that they did not have the same spirit as the apostles, which was the spirit of Christ. They had a spirit of Judaism, and viewed the OT as if Christ had not come, and fulfilled the role of the Messiah.
   
Hyper preterism is similar, IMO as their take of the words of Jesus, "this generation shall not pass, till all is fulfilled," disregards the fact that Jesus remains alive, having been raised from the dead, so his generation remains to this day. If they had taken this into account, they probably would never have become deceived by Mr. King.

Take for example your earlier statement on the Church being married with Christ. I'm thinking "of course, never said the contrary". What does that have to do with what the Judaizers were teaching in "forbidding marriage"?

Where does it say that those who forbid to marry are Judaizers? That is simply not there! And it is a prophecy for the "latter days." Here again, you "muddy the waters" of the considerable "flood" that you have generated.

As for the interpretation of the prophecy and the reference to "forbidding to marry," I take it to refer not to literal marriage, but to the holy covenant between Christ and the church, which is compared to a marriage in Eph. 5:32. Instead of being committed to Christ, people abandon faith and hope, and become deceived by the seducing spirits, and switch allegiance to some variety dispensationalism, or to preterism, then leave that belief system too, sometimes embracing disbelief. And some abandon their hope in our promise of a resurrection!

There are varieties of dispensationalism, such as classical dispensationalism, revised dispensationalism, progressive dispensationalism, hyperdispensationalism, ultradispensationalism. It is quite similar to the different varieties of preterism. It seems the most vocal opponents of hyper-preterists are the non-hyper preterists! Christians wandering among these various conflicting opinions is not being "married to Christ," is it?

Imo nothing because that is not the topic. The Judaizers were teaching that marriage as husband and wife had ended.

Where's your proof?

And we see it in Paul's response to the problems among the women in Ephesus as per Paul's writing to Timothy about women's conduct.  

Another early post of yours dealt with the resurrection and spoke about the church was a building of people. Of course, but I sill don't see the connection to the problem of Resurrection as you first indicated from your position on 1 Cor. 5:1-5. Unless I can see the connection whether that be my own mistake or your mistake I don't have the time to answer what I see in off topic.
So then try and connect the dots for me and I'll try ok?

Also sometimes your approach is imo quite offensive. I've seen at least 2 other people tell you this. So why respond to that kind of stuff. I mean even when I nicely brought it to your attention you threw it back worse in my face. Then you got moderated.

Actually it was a link to an article on a preterist site that got moderated! But it seems curious that hyper-preterism is so feeble a theory, that an appeal to the moderators is needed to defend it.  :laughing7:

You are anxious to discredit me and my views. I can live with that, no problem. But doesn't mean I won't ignore what I see is offensive. That's my prerogative.

I was under the opinion that my quite long post did indeed make a very good case of what I've been saying about the Judaizers in the end times setting of the fist century. The very things that you have clanged.  
If you wish to exchange thoughts with me then do so. And I'll do my best.

Ok I'll look for your respose to my question about the prophecy of Zech. 14.

Doug

[Seth]

OTOH, the "Judaizers" were from among those who believed, but who still cling to their traditions, and tried to convince other believers that they should keep the law of Moses too. They are mentioned in Acts 15.

This is the only wrong word in your statement because in today's times I call those mentioned above
Catholics
Baptist
Mormens
pen
etc...

Anyone who has the belief that you have to follow [ dont kill, dont lie, dont steal, etc... as a rule system to get to heaven

Lee

the Thing is Lee
they serve and are serving many "gods"  and many  divisions

 Jesus said ONE  GOD  AND THIS COMMAND . if you do this one thing  than all those other  things will  cease  ...

if you keep the greatest command given of Jesus Christ

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:  

Mar 12:30   And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.  


Mar 12:31   And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.  


Mar 12:32   And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:  


Mar 12:33   And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.  

Mar 12:34   And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question].

Keeping the law of Moses cannot earn us eternal life, or make us righteous. The law is a schoolmaster, Paul said. It reveals what sin is. After we leave school, do we forget what we learned there? No.

Paul said the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." [Rom. 8:4]

Paul said "if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." [Gal. 2:21] Yet, he also said "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." [Rom. 7:12] And Paul taught, "Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;" [Eph. 6:2]

David called God's law "the truth."

Psalm 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

He said it was his delight.

Psa. 119:174
I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

According to Paul, circumcision of the flesh does not profit, but he did not mean there are no commandments that apply to us.  

1 Cor. 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Jesus said: "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." [John 15:12]

Also see 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:22,24; 1 John 5:3; Rev. 14:12.

Doug

Amen, up down and all around  :thumbsup:

[Barry DuPont]

OTOH, the "Judaizers" were from among those who believed, but who still cling to their traditions, and tried to convince other believers that they should keep the law of Moses too. They are mentioned in Acts 15.

This is the only wrong word in your statement because in today's times I call those mentioned above
Catholics
Baptist
Mormens
pen
etc...

Anyone who has the belief that you have to follow [ dont kill, dont lie, dont steal, etc... as a rule system to get to heaven

Lee

the Thing is Lee
they serve and are serving many "gods"  and many  divisions

  Jesus said ONE  GOD  AND THIS COMMAND . if you do this one thing  than all those other  things will  cease  ...

if you keep the greatest command given of Jesus Christ

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 

Mar 12:30   And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.  


Mar 12:31   And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 


Mar 12:32   And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 


Mar 12:33   And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 

Mar 12:34   And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question].

Keeping the law of Moses cannot earn us eternal life, or make us righteous. The law is a schoolmaster, Paul said. It reveals what sin is. After we leave school, do we forget what we learned there? No.

Paul said the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." [Rom. 8:4]

Paul said "if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." [Gal. 2:21] Yet, he also said "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." [Rom. 7:12] And Paul taught, "Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;" [Eph. 6:2]

David called God's law "the truth."

Psalm 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

He said it was his delight.

Psa. 119:174
I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

According to Paul, circumcision of the flesh does not profit, but he did not mean there are no commandments that apply to us. 

1 Cor. 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Jesus said: "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." [John 15:12]

Also see 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:22,24; 1 John 5:3; Rev. 14:12.

Doug

Amen, up down and all around  :thumbsup:

Hey Seth,
Is the law of Moses still valid?
Did those types and figures ever have a historical end?

Is it the end of the physical world that you and some others here are waiting for?

Just curious.
Blessing Barry

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Seth yes

Berry no

Lee

[Barry DuPont]

Seth yes

Berry no

Lee

Lee, there are no law teachers today. There is no law to teach. It past away already.
Baptists or Catholics who teach law or works for salvation are not messengers of Satan. That's ended. 

We are not working through these things we are adapting to the present truth and reality as per our historical time frame. A revelation of God's unconditional love is fulfilled. That's why nothing has been written for almost 2000 years now. It's done. 

This is imo the inherent problem with most of the above comments and views expressed thus far.

Concerning Christendom as a whole, everyone wants to be a firstfruit and have the same salvation and the same reward and same inheritance just like the first generation of Christians. It's a matter of personal agenda and personal expectations.
But it is also about how we see each other and those that we disagree with.

We will read anything that we have to into the bible to make sure it's true in our minds. And some of us will be as nasty as we can possibly get away with when anyone who puts our agenda in question.
It's not a defense of the truth, but a defense of what one wants to defend about one's own perceived self identity.

Interestingly enough it is this that was destroyed in AD 70 as a mater of types and figures.
It is this that we are slowly adapting too and accepting. Because it is now covenantal truth. 

We are not going to get two "end times" out of scripture. One for the old covenant and one for my personal satisfaction or even for later times. Might as well have another crucifixion as well really. As if the history on the matter works for one point but not another. 

Nor were all those Christians who lived through to the end of the old covenant then going to have to overcome yet another world to then be judged again at their death for a second crown of life. Can't have it both ways. Can't have fulfillment then and afterword. And that was never prophesied. 
We or at least most believe what we want to at least for now. But eventfully as more new believers come to the forefront as the generations continue on, they come with less personally built agendas that have been preconceived by and through false religious expectations that have been pre programmed. This is just part of our ongoing growth now that everything has been made new. 

Just some personal thoughts
Barry

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Barry, I agree 100% with your post, although you said " there are no law preacher today".

I disagree with this first line, And I challenge you to turn on the Christian channel or go to any Baptist church and see and hear if you don't find them teaching that you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO follow all the laws of Moses to get to heaven...

[Seth]

Hey Seth,
Is the law of Moses still valid?

"Valid" is a bit of a vague word. It certainly is effective to it's intention as Doug demonstrated in the post I commented on.

Did those types and figures ever have a historical end?

This is another vague one for me. The sheep still symbolize Christ, and our old man being slain. That doesn't mean that we must still practice the rituals, but those rituals still symbolize him.

Is it the end of the physical world that you and some others here are waiting for?

Are you talking about the physical body? Or the physical world? As to forests and trees and rocks and rivers all physical, if they should stay or not, doesn't matter to me. However, I do have the hope of shedding the flesh and being conformed completely as Christ now is.

You are free not to have that hope and I won't continue to argue on and on about it, that's between you and the Lord, but that is part of the hope that I believe is intrinsic to the Gospel.

[Zeek]

Isa 28:2  Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

Isa 28:3  The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

Isa 28:4  And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.

Isa 28:5  In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

Isa 28:6  And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

Isa 28:7  But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Isa 28:8  For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

Isa 28:9  Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isa 28:10  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isa 28:11  For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isa 28:12  To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Isa 28:13  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Isa 28:14  Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

Isa 28:15  Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isa 28:16  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Isa 28:17  Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Isa 28:18  And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isa 28:19  From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

Isa 28:20  For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

Isa 28:21  For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Isa 28:22  Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

Isa 28:23  Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.

Isa 28:24  Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?

Isa 28:25  When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rye in their place?

Isa 28:26  For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.

Isa 28:27  For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.

Isa 28:28  Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.

Isa 28:29  This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

[Barry DuPont]

Barry, I agree 100% with your post, although you said " there are no law preacher today".

I disagree with this first line, And I challenge you to turn on the Christian channel or go to any Baptist church and see and hear if you don't find them teaching that you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO follow all the laws of Moses to get to heaven...

LOL ROFL!!!

I know where you are coming from Lee!

Consider that one could offer an animal sacrifice today.
Would that change the fact that they are fulfilled and past away?

Consider that one could build a temple for God today made with hands.
Would that change either the fact that just such a temple did have a "valid" historical place but that that very historical place of standing has by it's own predictions ended?

The problem is clearly our perception.
For example, as per Sister Cardinal's response I would say there is no more union of soul and spirit to be had. It's done.

It is our adaptation of the facts that is at work not the outworking of those precedents historically.

We are not going to get out of a first century fulfillment of all things written. Not and be consistent with the Book that we have been given.

Just some thoughts.

Blessings Barry

[Barry DuPont]

Isa 28:2  Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

Isa 28:3  The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

Isa 28:4  And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.

Isa 28:5  In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

Isa 28:6  And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

Isa 28:7  But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Isa 28:8  For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

Isa 28:9  Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isa 28:10  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isa 28:11  For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isa 28:12  To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Isa 28:13  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Isa 28:14  Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

Isa 28:15  Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isa 28:16  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Isa 28:17  Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Isa 28:18  And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isa 28:19  From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

Isa 28:20  For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

Isa 28:21  For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Isa 28:22  Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

Isa 28:23  Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.

Isa 28:24  Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?

Isa 28:25  When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rye in their place?

Isa 28:26  For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.

Isa 28:27  For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.

Isa 28:28  Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.

Isa 28:29  This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

Yes Zeek, very good and right on target.

They were judged in their conscience in the catastrophic end of the covenant of death. And death was thrown into the lake of fire.

Blessing to you, blessings.
Barry

[HartleyDamboiseII]

I "think" the issue between Car and you Barry is in the Meanings of the words in each others Heart/mind.

lee

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Seth,
Is the law of Moses still valid?

"Valid" is a bit of a vague word. It certainly is effective to it's intention as Doug demonstrated in the post I commented on.

Did those types and figures ever have a historical end?

This is another vague one for me. The sheep still symbolize Christ, and our old man being slain. That doesn't mean that we must still practice the rituals, but those rituals still symbolize him.

Is it the end of the physical world that you and some others here are waiting for?

Are you talking about the physical body? Or the physical world? As to forests and trees and rocks and rivers all physical, if they should stay or not, doesn't matter to me. However, I do have the hope of shedding the flesh and being conformed completely as Christ now is.

You are free not to have that hope and I won't continue to argue on and on about it, that's between you and the Lord, but that is part of the hope that I believe is intrinsic to the Gospel.

Fair enough Seth and thanks very much exchanging ideas with me.  
Some of the questions you asked me you might find in my last few responces.
Always open to chat.  
Blessings Barry

[Cardinal]

Lee, there are no law teachers today. There is no law to teach. It past away already.
Baptists or Catholics who teach law or works for salvation are not messengers of Satan. That's ended.  

We are not working through these things we are adapting to the present truth and reality as per our historical time frame. A revelation of God's unconditional love is fulfilled. That's why nothing has been written for almost 2000 years now. It's done.  

This is imo the inherent problem with most of the above comments and views expressed thus far.

:cloud9: It's not done, it's just been turned into an inward work as well as an outward work, compliant with the pattern of the Ark of the covenant that had 2 "anointings" of gold (representative of His nature). It's a spiritually obtained covenant with the works now being done by the Holy Ghost, according to the pattern of things in the heavenly realm.

Hebrews 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 8:4  For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:   5  Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he , that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed , not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvationwith fear and trembling.


Concerning Christendom as a whole, everyone wants to be a firstfruit and have the same salvation and the same reward and same inheritance just like the first generation of Christians. It's a matter of personal agenda and personal expectations.
But it is also about how we see each other and those that we disagree with.

:cloud9:Being a firstfruits is our identity in Christ and our inheritance if we will go with the plan. He is the forerunner of them that go behind the veil. A forerunner means more are to follow.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Romans 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.   30  Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called : and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

We will read anything that we have to into the bible to make sure it's true in our minds. And some of us will be as nasty as we can possibly get away with when anyone who puts our agenda in question.
It's not a defense of the truth, but a defense of what one wants to defend about one's own perceived self identity.

:cloud9: Dead men don't have self identities. Our identity is hid in Christ and we are being conformed into the image of God's Son.

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead , and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Interestingly enough it is this that was destroyed in AD 70 as a matter of types and figures.
It is this that we are slowly adapting too and accepting. Because it is now covenantal truth.  

We are not going to get two "end times" out of scripture. One for the old covenant and one for my personal satisfaction or even for later times. Might as well have another crucifixion as well really. As if the history on the matter works for one point but not another.  

Nor were all those Christians who lived through to the end of the old covenant then going to have to overcome yet another world to then be judged again at their death for a second crown of life. Can't have it both ways. Can't have fulfillment then and afterword. And that was never prophesied.

:cloud9: No, if it were as you say, then God would be a respecter of persons, if what is written ONLY applied to that generation. The literal served as an example for us, the heirs of (complete) salvation, which is why we were told not to fall as the Israelites did thru an evil heart of unbelief and therefore did not enter into the promised land. Both are still in effect, in spiritual applications. Here is an example of why........

The Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons (could be sicknesses, evil spirits as well) by an evil spirit. The Pharisees were well aware of the fact from Deut. and other books that GOD set this up as a part of the OT covenant curses.

So in fact, what the Pharisees were asking Him is by whose authority do you do these things (including healing the man on the Sabbath day), because we know this demon/sickness is a judgment established by GOD for disobedience, and carried out by Satan. So since God AUTHORIZED it; for You, Jesus, to UNDO it, must mean it's an EVIL spirit in You, Jesus, OPPOSING what we know by the LAW, is GOD'S judgment.

So Jesus answered perfectly, telling them that if that if He was casting out what SATAN had done, by SATAN, then SATAN'S kingdom would be divided and fall, because Satan's kingdom was given by GOD, ie. to eat dust, the prince of this world, bringer of judgments.

But that He was casting them out by GOD, meant that a NEW COVENANT was in fact about to come into place in the whole, and had already come into place in the part = Christ Jesus, because God's kingdom is NOT divided.

And so, the Pharisees asked Him by whose authority do you do these things, when He healed the man on the SABBATH day. Since John's baptism was a type of being baptized into His death (intended to bring repentance) which was a type of the OT covenant that concluded all under the covenant of death; as in, if you never came up out of that water of the letter of the law that killeth the result would be you'd give up the ghost = drown in the waters of judgment.

Which is why Peter was told (he who had the calling to the Jews/those under the letter of the law) to come out of the boat and walk ABOVE the letter of the law waters below the firmament, and walk in the proceeding Word/breath that comes from the Father's mouth.

So what they were asking Him there again was, by whose authority do you do these things, since we know God has done this for judgment? And His answer there was also perfect in it's understanding. He turned the tables on them, and asked a seemingly unrelated (to us) question.....

Mt 21:25 - The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?"
And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

:cloud9: And so, I say to you.......the baptism of John ie. the symbol of the judgments that GOD ordained for those that continue to walk by the letter/water that are AUTHORIZED BY GOD, and is being fulfilled STILL TO THIS DAY by Satan......whence was it? from heaven, or of men?

The whole NT covenant with it's instructions about resisting the devil and he will flee, ect. are the unfolding of the finished plan of God, which runs SIDE BY SIDE (run the good race) in the framework of TIME, with the first covenant principles that are ONLY abolished with the death of the testator, as the testament is not in effect UNTIL the testator dies.

So the first covenant which was made with our flesh concluding all under judgment, stays in effect as long as there is still flesh that needs to die, right along with the second covenant, till ALL is fulfilled.

Which is why He told John, who didn't want to baptize Him in water, to baptize Him because it is necessary that we fulfill ALL righteousness. And which is why spiritually speaking, we are told not to muzzle an ox (law) with an ass (Spirit), ie walking side by side. He as the covenant that is Spirit, came riding upon an ass, all beast of burden "ox" flesh had died.

Heb 10:9 - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

:cloud9: The first is not going to disappear, God's Word stands, not a jot or tittle shall pass away of it. Be ye reconciled.
 
We or at least most believe what we want to at least for now. But eventfully as more new believers come to the forefront as the generations continue on, they come with less personally built agendas that have been preconceived by and through false religious expectations that have been pre programmed. This is just part of our ongoing growth now that everything has been made new.

:cloud9: You know Barry, not all have come into this with "personally built agendas that have preconceived by and through false religious expectations that have been pre-programmed." I had NO religious ideas whatsoever, had never read a word of it until the day I was born again and then locked myself away with Him for 2 years with a bible and a concordance. I didn't have anybody standing over me telling me what to believe and what not to believe. Blessings....

Just some personal thoughts
Barry