End times?

[Molly]

1 In the third month after the Israelites left Egypt—on the very day—they came to the Desert of Sinai. 2 After they set out from Rephidim, they entered the Desert of Sinai, and Israel camped there in the desert in front of the mountain.

3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel:

4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."

7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.

9 The LORD said to Moses, "I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you." Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.

10 And the LORD said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes 11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, 'Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13 He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.' Only when the ram's horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain."

14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes. 15 Then he said to the people, "Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations."

16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain  trembled violently, 19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.

20 The LORD descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up 21 and the LORD said to him, "Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the LORD and many of them perish. 22 Even the priests, who approach the LORD, must consecrate themselves, or the LORD will break out against them."

23 Moses said to the LORD, "The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, 'Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.' "

24 The LORD replied, "Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the LORD, or he will break out against them."

25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.

--Exodus 19

[Molly]

Exodus 19--This is where they make their covenant with death.  Man's pride, thinking they can do it themselves--'we will keep all your laws, LORD'.  A month later they are dancing around a golden calf.

But, it's worse than that.  Pretty soon they move from God's law to their own manmade laws--whereby they make themselves god--even to this day with their 2000 page bills--so--

Mark 7:9
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.


They think because they can make laws [which they themselves do not have to keep and will benefit from while the rest bear the burden]--the covenant with death--they are God himself--but they are wrong--


15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

--Isa 28



Everyone will be measured against Jesus.

[reFORMer]

Philippians 3:8-11, 13-16, 20-21 (Concordant Literal Translation)...

8...that I should be gaining Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:
10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,
11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.

13...yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front --
14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
15 Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this, and if in anything you are differently disposed, this also shall God reveal to you.
16 Moreover, in what we outstrip others, there is to be a mutual disposition to be observing the elements by the same rule.

20 For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,
21 Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.

Pressing toward one thing:  that the power of His resurrection would be so known by me that I also attain to the out resurrection out from among the dead; to be possessed by God in His upon high calling, summoned into a higher dimension in Christ; and, that our body of humiliation be conformed to the body of His glory.  These are all descriptions of the same thing.  It is a race against death, a race to the finish (mature) line.

Romans 8:18-23 (Concordant Literal Translation)...

18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for (lit., into) us.
19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.
20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body.

There is a glory to be unveiled into us that will reveal us in creation.  What is made, the outward cosmos itself is to be liberated from the permeating tendency to degeneration enslaving it now.  Animals strive that the stronger reproduce more lest the successive gradually degrading copies made of our bodies would produce weaker and lesser offspring.  This physical dimension has the testimony within it of a better world coming.  The rat struggles in the trap to achieve the better future she believes in.  She expects a liberty contrary to evidential experience.  That born of God inwardly will put on the immortal body and be born of God in their physical nature which will be liberated from the Adam in which all dies into authority over all things in the material cosmos.  "When He appears, we shall appear with Him in glory."

More and more, the glory will be manifesting in the outer physical realm.  The realm in which God is in control, His kingdom, is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.  Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.  The glory transforms.  All creation will be set free.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

"Real Truth"  IN End Times
Today's versions of the end times events are "mostly" all lies. Spoken by un-spiritual Mankind. If you have the will,want,heart felt desire to know truth, then go to Gary Sigler's web site and click the link to J.P. Eby or type in www.sigler.org/eby/eby_revelation

I have studied many people's opioion on end-times and found all but Eby's lacking in many areas. It is extensive, but very educational....

Lee Damboise II

[Barry DuPont]

Philippians 3:8-11, 13-16, 20-21 (Concordant Literal Translation)...

8...that I should be gaining Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:
10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,
11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.

13...yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front --
14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
15 Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this, and if in anything you are differently disposed, this also shall God reveal to you.
16 Moreover, in what we outstrip others, there is to be a mutual disposition to be observing the elements by the same rule.

20 For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,
21 Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.

Pressing toward one thing:  that the power of His resurrection would be so known by me that I also attain to the out resurrection out from among the dead; to be possessed by God in His upon high calling, summoned into a higher dimension in Christ; and, that our body of humiliation be conformed to the body of His glory.  These are all descriptions of the same thing.  It is a race against death, a race to the finish (mature) line.

Romans 8:18-23 (Concordant Literal Translation)...

18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for (lit., into) us.
19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.
20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body.

There is a glory to be unveiled into us that will reveal us in creation.  What is made, the outward cosmos itself is to be liberated from the permeating tendency to degeneration enslaving it now.  Animals strive that the stronger reproduce more lest the successive gradually degrading copies made of our bodies would produce weaker and lesser offspring.  This physical dimension has the testimony within it of a better world coming.  The rat struggles in the trap to achieve the better future she believes in.  She expects a liberty contrary to evidential experience.  That born of God inwardly will put on the immortal body and be born of God in their physical nature which will be liberated from the Adam in which all dies into authority over all things in the material cosmos.  "When He appears, we shall appear with Him in glory."

More and more, the glory will be manifesting in the outer physical realm.  The realm in which God is in control, His kingdom, is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.  Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.  The glory transforms.  All creation will be set free.

Hey Reformer,
These are the type of questions that have brought me to a very different view:

Is the "creation" in view there the whole physical Universe or is it an element of intelligent creation?

Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body.

Is freedom from the physicality of our existence or is it from sin? 
To what was "creation" in bondage?
Did Adam's eating of from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil corrupt far away Galaxies?
Did Adam's eating of from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil corrupt the whole of God's dwelling that he stretched out as a tent to dwell in?

Is the subject matter the existence of entropy in material creation or is it about our confidence in ourselves wherein our independent potential is then limited to the natural only?


For Jesus said "Man shall not live by bread alone". He did not say, "Man shall not live by bread at all".

Just some thoughts,
Blessings Barry

[Beloved Servant]

Amen Lee,
Brother Preston well serves the Lord.

[Doug]

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
What death was to be swallowed up in victory?  Covenant death!

They were not participating in the seed analogy because they were physically dead in the earth but rather because they were dieing with Christ.

Phl 3:5   Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 
Phl 3:6   Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 
Phl 3:7   But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 
Phl 3:8   Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, 
Phl 3:9   And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 
Phl 3:10   That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 
Phl 3:11   If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

This has nothing directly to do with physical death!! This is covenantal.
Resurrection had nothing to do with post mortem continuity.
Salvation had nothing nor has nothing to do with going to heaven to be with God.
The spirit returned and returns to God who gave it. Always has always will.
Resurrection was out of the law.
Salvation is for this life.

Brian Simmons says:

The doctrines of Hyper-Preterism teach that Jesus Christ's second advent happened in A.D. 70, at the fall of Herod's temple, and that the resurrection of believers –  indeed, of all men –  happened at that time.  In order to bolster their strange theory, H.P.'s spiritualize every eschatological passage that speaks of resurrection.  They also employ a "critical-historical" hermeneutic, which narrows down all eschatological fulfillment to the first century.


http://antipreterist.wordpress.com/2009/09/15/hyper-preterisms-resurrection-error/

Hmm..

Doug

[cre8ed2worship]

"Real Truth"  IN End Times
Today's versions of the end times events are "mostly" all lies. Spoken by un-spiritual Mankind. If you have the will,want,heart felt desire to know truth, then go to Gary Sigler's web site and click the link to J.P. Eby or type in www.sigler.org/eby/eby_revelation

I have studied many people's opioion on end-times and found all but Eby's lacking in many areas. It is extensive, but very educational....

Lee Damboise II

I completely agree with Lee.  Brother Eby's writings ring the truest in my Spirit!  He is an anointed teacher and a very humble man.  But the most extensive site for his works is his own:

kingdombiblestudies.org

I believe it is run by his son.  May the Lord bless you with wisdom, knowledge and understanding!

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug,
One of the major arguments that Brian and others use against the fulfilled view is that it leads to "Universalism"

http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/preterist-universaliam-global-or-local-by-dorothy-anderson/

Quote Brian Simmons:
"Hi Dorothy,

Interesting post. I agree with you that Hyper-Preterism leads directly to Universalism. The fact there are so many Universalists goes to show how one false conclusion easily leads to another."
End quote.

To my knowledge many people here are universalists and so it would appear that he would not necessarily carry that much weight as a trusted biblical scholar in this neck of the woods.  
I would wish brother Brian all the very best in his ongoing studies of God's word. Personally speaking however there is much there at least at this time that I would not agree with.  

Blessings to you Doug,
Barry

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, I think they're mistaken then, because God led me to the truth of UR, and I'm not preterist. Blessings....

[Doug]

Hey Doug,
One of the major arguments that Brian and others use against the fulfilled view is that it leads to "Universalism"

http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/preterist-universaliam-global-or-local-by-dorothy-anderson/

Quote Brian Simmons:
"Hi Dorothy,

Interesting post. I agree with you that Hyper-Preterism leads directly to Universalism. The fact there are so many Universalists goes to show how one false conclusion easily leads to another."
End quote.

To my knowledge many people here are universalists and so it would appear that he would not necessarily carry that much weight as a trusted biblical scholar in this neck of the woods.  
I would wish brother Brian all the very best in his ongoing studies of God's word. Personally speaking however there is much there at least at this time that I would not agree with.  

I think Brian is a dispensationalist, so I probably would not agree with all he says either. Yet he may be well informed about hyper preterism, and his comment may still be accurate. The article you linked to was one written by Dorothy Anderson who was a hyper preterist but recently abandoned that position. Some posts of hers on the subject are at:


Hyper-Preterism for Dummies by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/hyper-preterism-for-dummies-by-dorothy-anderson/


Return From Oz by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/return-from-oz-by-dorothy-anderson/


The Devil is in the Details by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/the-devil-is-in-the-details-by-dorothy-anderson/


Re-Shuffling the Creed Card Deck by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/re-shuffling-the-creed-card-deck-by-dorothy-anderson/


The Dangerous Theological Errors of Hyper-Preterism Part 7: Was Jesus a False Prophet? by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/the-dangerous-theological-errors-of-hyper-preterism-part-7-was-jesus-a-false-prophet-by-dorothy-anderson/


Roderick Edwards is another person who left the hyper preterist position and has been actively fighting it.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Book_Reviews/2009_edwards_wsttb.html

Todd Dennis, webmaster of the Preterist Archive, left the hyper preterist position after 10 years.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/dennis-todd_p_01.html

There are many others who have seen the light!

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

:cloud9: Well, I think they're mistaken then, because God led me to the truth of UR, and I'm not preterist. Blessings....

I agree with that wholeheartedly Cardinal. One need not be a Universalist because one is a Preterist. Nor does one need to be a Preterist because one is a universalist.
The fulfilled view does however run toward an understanding of common grace for all, for it does see the end of the law in AD 70 (which is the strength of sin). It sees the end of types and figures in the first century and so then see a New World since then.

IMO one need not be either a preterist or a Universalist by conviction. Everyone does believe what they want to and is free to do so as long as God allows for it in our personal Journeys. I respect that but do enjoy discussing the subject from a scripture based approach. 

In regards to the topic of the thread, "end times", we can have and perhaps do have several different approaches to the subject.
If "end times" is purely a spiritual-personal experience between our ears then it is then neither past nor future, historically speaking but fulfilled between our ears.
If it is future, historically speaking then it is still presently being played out and touches on what is taking place between our ears.

If it is past, historically speaking then that also touches on what is taking place between our ears.
All three cannot be correct in the scriptures even though all three will have valuable truths that will touch us and help us grow.

All three cannot harmonize the vast reservoir of scriptures on the subject of end times, but all three will have valuable reference points we can all draw from.
Nevertheless the full implications of each scenario is very different and very different from the other and that is very intriguing to look into. And that in my book makes it worth discussing, yet as one's that love each other. 

Blessing to you, Barry

[Barry DuPont]

 

Hey Doug,
One of the major arguments that Brian and others use against the fulfilled view is that it leads to "Universalism"

http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/preterist-universaliam-global-or-local-by-dorothy-anderson/

Quote Brian Simmons:
"Hi Dorothy,

Interesting post. I agree with you that Hyper-Preterism leads directly to Universalism. The fact there are so many Universalists goes to show how one false conclusion easily leads to another."
End quote.

To my knowledge many people here are universalists and so it would appear that he would not necessarily carry that much weight as a trusted biblical scholar in this neck of the woods. 
I would wish brother Brian all the very best in his ongoing studies of God's word. Personally speaking however there is much there at least at this time that I would not agree with.   

I think Brian is a dispensationalist, so I probably would not agree with all he says either. Yet he may be well informed about hyper preterism, and his comment may still be accurate. The article you linked to was one written by Dorothy Anderson who was a hyper preterist but recently abandoned that position. Some posts of hers on the subject are at:


Hyper-Preterism for Dummies by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/hyper-preterism-for-dummies-by-dorothy-anderson/


Return From Oz by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/return-from-oz-by-dorothy-anderson/


The Devil is in the Details by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/the-devil-is-in-the-details-by-dorothy-anderson/


Re-Shuffling the Creed Card Deck by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/re-shuffling-the-creed-card-deck-by-dorothy-anderson/


The Dangerous Theological Errors of Hyper-Preterism Part 7: Was Jesus a False Prophet? by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/the-dangerous-theological-errors-of-hyper-preterism-part-7-was-jesus-a-false-prophet-by-dorothy-anderson/


Roderick Edwards is another person who left the hyper preterist position and has been actively fighting it.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Book_Reviews/2009_edwards_wsttb.html

Todd Dennis, webmaster of the Preterist Archive, left the hyper preterist position after 10 years.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/dennis-todd_p_01.html

There are many others who have seen the light!

Doug

Hey Doug,
Google "preterist heresy" and "ex-preterist".
Google "universalism heresy" and "ex-universalist" and see what you find.


Do we really care as a matter of our own personal convictions how many ex-universalists there are out there?
Personally speaking, I do not.
Even though ex-preterists are actually few and far between they are nevertheless very outspoken about their convictions and usually see Preteristism as a stepping stone to Universalism. I know Rodrick and Todd and they know of me. I wish them the very best in their ongoing study of God's word. 

Although personally speaking, I'm not a Universalist in the strict sense of the word but do follow the Universal Reconciliation principle from a fulfilled perspective. Wherein Unity is not made but realized.
I'm not a universalists in that I do not see "Salvation" as the ticket to go to heaven. But rather in terms of freedom from the law as pertains to end times. With also the present day application of a salvation to serve others as the knowledge that God loves everyone unconditionally. So that such knowledge is the "salvation of the soul" in today's personal experience.

Blessings to you
Barry

[rosered]

 
 Hi Barry  
why would anyone want to limit  God?

 all things are possible with God
 why not all 3 scenarios ?

 can He not do whatever He wants with His things ?  

 


Jhn 3:31   He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.  


Jhn 3:32   And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.  


Jhn 3:33   He that has  received his testimony has  set to his seal that God is true. 


Jhn 3:34   For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure [unto him].  


Jhn 3:35   The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.

[Molly]

Revelation 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.



"bottomless pit"
G12
ἄβυσσος
abussos
ab'-us-sos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of G1037; depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) "abyss": - deep, (bottomless) pit.



It's a horrible thought to be deceived.  But they both deceive others and deceive themselves.  They believe their own lies, and sink into a deception which is bottomless.   That's the problem with deception, there is no foundation that can stand, no stopping point--this far and no further--nothing to stand on, just a sinking, sinking, sinking into a bottomless depravity, into the abussos.


Even the demons fear this state.  

30And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
31And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

--Luke 8

"the deep"

G12
ἄβυσσος
abussos
ab'-us-sos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of G1037; depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) "abyss": - deep, (bottomless) pit.


This is the tohu and bohu of Genesis 1:2--without form and void, a falling forever into nothingness.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

---Genesis 1


"the deep"

H8415
תּהם    תּהום
tehôm  tehôm
teh-home', teh-home'
(Usually feminine) from H1949; an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water supply): - deep (place), depth.



For me, this is as close to Hell as it gets.

[Barry DuPont]

 Hi Barry  
why would anyone want to limit  God?

 all things are possible with God
 why not all 3 scenarios ?

 can He not do whatever He wants with His things ?  

 


Jhn 3:31   He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.  


Jhn 3:32   And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.  


Jhn 3:33   He that has  received his testimony has  set to his seal that God is true.  


Jhn 3:34   For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure [unto him].  


Jhn 3:35   The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.

Really great question that cuts right to the point.  

But are we speaking of limiting God or are we speaking of our adapting our own agendas to his?
I firmly believe that all scripture is inspired by God and that it all harmonizes when correctly understood. [I do not have it all harmonized and never will.]
I do not in my understanding have whole books and chapters and epistles that are non or un-inspired for example.
Ether all is inspired or all is not. (And I'm saying it is and I'm not bringing up the topic for discussion but only but for illustration's sake that it cannot be both ways.)
Can both be true because God has no limits?
Not imo.

Is there a historical agenda to the Bible?
Did Christ become manifest at some point in history or is such a manifestation purely and only personal?
Can they both be correct and harmonized in the scriptures?
Not imo.

However I might have misunderstood you and so my response may be tinted with my own preconceptions. So it's up to me to be open to those possibilities and try and listen carefully.

Love ya, Barry

[Molly]

Jhn 3:31   He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.   

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


--1 Cor 15

[rosered]

Can both be true because God has no limits?
Not imo.

Is there a historical agenda to the Bible?
Did Christ become manifest at some point in history or is such a manifestation purely and only personal?
Can they both be correct and harmonized in the scriptures?
Not imo.

However I might have misunderstood you and so my response may be tinted with my own preconceptions. So it's up to me to be open to those possibilities and try and listen carefully.

Love ya, Barry

  Thank you so much for your honest reply   Bro Barry ,
It means alot

    maybe  some,  such as I are to open minded , heaven open 
and many find fault in this way of thinking ..

  the Lord has always been with us  as those back in that time  of
Israel
  in the Cloud / witness and pillar of fire
   just as  the    great lights  of  the night and day have ruled

the Lord leads them  just as today
  the  children of Day/ those that are Christs  are the same cloud / witness    Jesus comes in
  just as the  pillars of fire  in the night to judge those that will be Christs

Num 14:14 And they will tell [it] to the inhabitants of this land: [for] they have heard that thou LORD [art] among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and [that] thy cloud standeth over them, and [that] thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.

 
Neh 9:12 Moreover thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go. 


Neh 9:19 Yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness: the pillar of the cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go. 

  Isaiah 4 and 5 .. acts Acts  3 ;21 -26   Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.   the same cloud witness of Heaven God the Father   into you  as we seen in pentecost
   this is Jesus Christ hidden . with  the  law and prophets   and it grew over  history   as the law  was one pillar and the prophets  another pillar of fire  in Rev .

Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud   [this is the Lord Jesus Christ  to me ] : and a rainbow [was] upon his head,[Israel /12 tribes]   at the Cross  and  he is the resurrection and life] and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire 

 
   imo    the cross of Jesus Christ  has opened heaven  for all each in their own order  that is why  no one can call the time or hour  when the Lord comes  if he take many at once or one by one all  have been  going all along  , since the Cross    mighty was the work of GOD though His Son Jesus Christ

could explain better if this makes no sense to you , but it will take  some  more effort on  my part . :mblush:

  God bless

[Barry DuPont]

Great post sis, and I think I understood a bit more. Forgive me for my analytical approach :)

Quote (emphasis mine):
imo    the cross of Jesus Christ  has opened heaven  for all each in their own order  that is why  no one can call the time or hour  when the Lord comes  if he take many at once or one by one all  have been  going all along  , since the Cross    mighty was the work of GOD though His Son Jesus Christ
End Quote.

The discussion at this point then appears really more to be not so much whether the cross was historical or purely personal, [for your words, if I have correctly understood them is placing the cross in human history,] but rather to what degree does it now become personal since it is historical? [If I correctly understood you and am not putting my own thoughts onto your view.]

About your other points: To what degree do you see, the old temple that Solomon built as a house of God when God does not dwell in houses made with hands?
IE, yes God was with them but they did not have the revelation that Christ crucified was to bring into human history so they were bound by types and figures on some level and limited on some such level imo.


The subsequent question to this, is types and figures ending altogether?
If so when?
To what extent will that be or was historical?
Is their any historical-ness to it at all?

[Not to be obliging and ask a tone of questions, just thinking through so to speak]

Blessings Barry  

[rosered]

  Well after reading your post Bro Barry 
I do see them as both   historical and Spiritual  and both are   very  personal to whom God dealt / deals with them/us  ..

  the  Word of God is more than just the written Word ,,,,,, which is  historical  and  spiritual and  personal in each one  whom  the Lords will  effected them ..

The discussion at this point then appears really more to be not so much whether the cross was historical or purely personal, [for your words, if I have correctly understood them is placing the cross in human history,] but rather to what degree does it now become personal since it is historical? [If I correctly understood you and am not putting my own thoughts onto your view.]

The subsequent question to this, is types and figures ending altogether?
If so when?
To what extent will that be or was historical?
Is their any historical-ness to it at all?

  1. Yes when we SEE JESUS  CHRIST   to me this is Spiritual and  again personal 

2. when He reveals Himself ,  we are visited by Him and His  clouds

please take into  account Paul saw Him  and he/ Jesus  had risen already

so have many over   the couse of  history and time and many did not see him   or recognize   Him ,as well though He was in their midst !

  The Lord has been here all along  thoughout ''His story''  the whole book is about Him   and when we see Him as  He reveals  Himself to us
  He is the begining and End 

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him]. 

Luk 10:23   And he turned him unto [his] disciples, and said privately, Blessed [are] the eyes which see the things that ye see: 


Luk 10:24   For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. 


   we have seen the  Lord in His Glory  and many have not still
  So I ask you have you seen  Jesus  yet ? Spiritually speaking  now

[Barry DuPont]

So I ask you have you seen  Jesus  yet ? Spiritually speaking  now

Yes.
God through Christ Jesus and the firstfruits-bride, did take away (fulfill) all types and figures and left an eternal revelation of the unconditional love of God which has produced an ongoing perpetual efficacy which is the glory of the bride.

He loves me and all without condition and has revealed this in human history.
He has taken away any need for anyone to live with any law between their ears as a measure of their worth or value before Him.

He is all and in all.

My veiw is that the problem remains people's sight and not in the need of any further historical markers. All historical markers have been fulfilled.

The problem is people's perception of law.
The perception of a need to prove or perform to establish one's own value factor.

IMO, doctrines still get in the way in people's minds because they do not see a present fulfilled gospel.
The short time frame of the actual transition of the ages is misappropriated into an elongated near eternal ongoing struggle and personal never coming Utopian like expectation. And this problem will never come to an end no mater how many personal revelations a person has, as long as one's expectations do not answer to a presently fulfilled revelation of unconditional love.   

JMO
Blessings Barry

 

[rosered]

So I ask you have you seen  Jesus  yet ? Spiritually speaking  now

Yes.
God through Christ Jesus and the firstfruits-bride, did take away (fulfill) all types and figures and left an eternal revelation of the unconditional love of God which has produced an ongoing perpetual efficacy which is the glory of the bride.

He loves me and all without condition and has revealed this in human history.
He has taken away any need for anyone to live with any law between their ears as a measure of their worth or value before Him.

He is all and in all.

My veiw is that the problem remains people's sight and not in the need of any further historical markers. All historical markers have been fulfilled.

The problem is people's perception of law.
The perception of a need to prove or perform to establish one's own value factor.

IMO, doctrines still get in the way in people's minds because they do not see a present fulfilled gospel.
The short time frame of the actual transition of the ages is misappropriated into an elongated near eternal ongoing struggle and personal never coming Utopian like expectation. And this problem will never come to an end no mater how many personal revelations a person has, as long as one's expectations do not answer to a presently fulfilled revelation of unconditional love.   

JMO
Blessings Barry

 

:thumbsup:  let us go  on into perfection / Christ  :icon_flower:

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 


Hbr 6:2   Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 

Hbr 6:3   And this will we do, if God permit. 


Hbr 6:4   For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 


Hbr 6:5   And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 

Hbr 6:6   If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
 

lots to consider ...  love    book of Hebrews  seems to answer alot ..

and  Hebrews 7 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 


Hbr 7:12   For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 

Hbr 7:13   For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.  


Hbr 7:14   For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 


Hbr 7:15   And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there arises another priest, 
Hbr 7:16   Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.  
   
   just  look  how far the Lord is  come ... we have no more excuse , it seems

[Doug]

About 20 years ago I used to go on some nice long walks with a few verses in my hand that I would read over and over again and think about. Ones like this which are very hard to understand.
This text presents some difficulties in many of the commentaries because it seems to read differently from the typical interpretation of 1 Cor. Chapter 15. It looks to some commentators that Paul had changed his mind about some things.
Anyway here is a few of my thoughts in very brief: 

It seems to me that the principle of consistency of terms used locks us into the old covenant tabernacle, at least in the first few verses of 2 Cor. 5 

You seem to be promoting the views of hyper preterist Max King, who misinterpreted 2 Cor. 5:1-10 in a way quite similar to what you have posted. 

"The primary application deals with the development and rise of the Christian system itself."   II Cor.5:1-10 "primarily...applies to the fall of Judaism and the rise of Christianity."[56]  Indeed, the fall of Judaism and rise of Christianity is the "primary resurrection."  Max King, The Spirit of Prophecy (Warren OH, 1971 ed.), pp. p. 191, 210.

http://www.preteristcentral.com/pmaxking-quoth-MaxKing.htm

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
...
Hbr 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 

Obviously, Stephen and Paul were contrasting the earthly temple at Jerusalem with the church. The earthly temples were figures and types of the church.

Hbr 9:24   For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 

2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 

2Cr 5:4   For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 

What tabernacle was made with hands?

Job 31:15   Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb? 

Ecc 11:5   As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.  

Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. 

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 

The contrast is clearly between a tabernacle made with hands and one that is not.
The tabernacle made with hands is the old covenant tabernacle. It is the one Paul wished to see dissolved.

The physical body was not made with hands. This the scriptures are IMO very clear on. We were made by God himself.

Below are some scriptures which refer the works of God's hands. It seems to include the entire creation, including the saints.

Job believed he was the work of God's hands.
 
Job 14:15
Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

The earth and all that is in it was made by God's hands.

Psalm 8:6
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

The heavens also are formed by God's hands, David said.

Psalm 102:25
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

David thought of himself as the work of God's hands.

Psalm 119:73
Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.

Psalm 138:8
The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

Psalm 139:14
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Who can say God does not have hands?

Isaiah 45:9
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

God's sons are said to be the work of his hands.

Isaiah 45:11
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Isaiah 60:21
Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

Jesus committed his spirit into God hands.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.


The author of Hebrews warned about falling into the hands of God!

Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

Yes Doug, the verses that you quote do say all the same thing which is that very much my point. For neither Paul nor his personal "body" was "made with hands" but rather by God (or God's hands if you will).

2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. {not made with human hands of course}

Paul is clearly waiting for the building or tabernacle that is "not made with hands". Of course then, the building or tabernacle he was presently in was indeed made with hands or else his sentence makes no sense.

So then the tabernacle and or building that he presently was in was one that was "made with hands".
Since God made us, it cannot be speaking of us in our physical body. Since Paul was formed in the womb by God, then he is clearly speaking of the old covenant tabernacle, the old covenant building which was "made with hands".

Paul considers himself still part of that old tabernacle as a Hebrew. James and all the other Jewish Christians including the other apostles felt at least the same way if not even stronger. They are still waiting for the end of types and figures and the way behind the veil is "not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle is yet standing"

See my previous points on this subject from Acts where Paul behaves exactly like a Hebrew that knows the types and figures were still valid and so then the Hebrews were still attached to them in ways that the Gentiles were not. That is why the context contrasts the "us and you" as the Hebrews and the Gentiles.

Both Jews and Gentiles are waiting for the fullness of the tabernacle from heaven but the New Jerusalem is still then "coming down out of heaven". the context is not about receiving a new personal body.
If it is then Paul stands in contradiction with the fact that he was made by God and not with hands of men.

The biblical evidence seems to indicate that Max King was indeed correct that this is speaking of the old covenant tabernacle that was made with hands.
Blessings Barry

[reFORMer]

   we have seen the  Lord in His Glory  and many have not still
  So I ask you have you seen  Jesus  yet ? Spiritually speaking  now

Barry...you didn't answer this question very well.  Though you said, "Yes," it was not embellished with descriptions of that experience.  You instead went into doctrinal thought processes and logical permutations of Scripture.

For myself at least, I'm interested in your experience with God, like conversion or regeneration, any crisis of repentance, work or event of sanctification, baptism in the Holy Spirit, miracles, visions, how you came to UR, ongoing leadings or prophetic insight into your own life...that sort of thing.