End times?

[sparrow]

The revelation of God's unconditional love has displaced all types and figures.

The old had to end lest humanity be left always in the darkness of types and figures.  

YEAH!!!!  PRAISE GOD.    Thank YOU JESUS.

:HeartThrob:  :Gclap:

[Doug]

Doug, our physical body is not made with hands. The old temple was made with hands.  
It is God that formed us in the womb not man.
And this fact IMO effectively undoes the notion that this is anything but the old covenant house that they are waiting to end.

If you mean to suggest that 2 Cor. 5:1-11 refers to the Jewish temple, I find that idea absurd. In this chapter, Paul is speaking of our bodies as "tabernacles." See any commentary. And this is consistent with what he said elsewhere, for example 1 Cor. 6:19: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

Similarly Peter wrote, "I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder..." [2 Peter 1:13] In the NT, our bodies represent a "house" or "tent" or "tabernacle" for the spirit of God. That is what Paul is discussing in 2 Cor. 5. Not the Jerusalem temple.

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

Just a few brief notes on your last post if I may. Hope no one minds.

Doug, if I believed commentaries I would not believe that God is love. :bigGrin:

About 20 years ago I used to go on some nice long walks with a few verses in my hand that I would read over and over again and think about. Ones like this which are very hard to understand.
This text presents some difficulties in many of the commentaries because it seems to read differently from the typical interpretation of 1 Cor. Chapter 15. It looks to some commentators that Paul had changed his mind about some things.
Anyway here is a few of my thoughts in very brief: 

It seems to me that the principle of consistency of terms used locks us into the old covenant tabernacle, at least in the first few verses of 2 Cor. 5 

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Act 17:24   God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 
Act 17:25   Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 
Act 17:26   And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 
Act 17:27   That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28   For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 

Hbr 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 

Hbr 9:24   For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 

2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 

2Cr 5:4   For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 

What tabernacle was made with hands?

Job 31:15   Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb? 

Ecc 11:5   As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.  

Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. 

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 

The contrast is clearly between a tabernacle made with hands and one that is not.
The tabernacle made with hands is the old covenant tabernacle. It is the one Paul wished to see dissolved.

The physical body was not made with hands. This the scriptures are IMO very clear on. We were made by God himself.
However Paul spoke elsewhere about the temple made with hands and that was the old tabernacle of the old covenant. The one that still stood when Paul wrote these points.

Just to touch on the term Body:
The term Body is scripture can mean several different things.
Here for example:

Jud 1:9   Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 

Zec 2:11   And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. 
Zec 2:12   And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. 
Zec 2:13   Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation. 
Zec 3:1  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 
Zec 3:2   And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

The "body of Moses" in Jude 9 is not a rotting corps that Satan wanted but was rather, "Israel" itself. Israel was the body of Moses.
This is an example to show that it is good to keep in mind when reading the bible that we are not reading a "western" book but more of an eastern book.

See my little commentary on 2 Corinthians 5 in an above post. You will see that I include the aspect of the "Body of Christ" there as part of the summation. [Think I did LOL!]

Blessings Barry

[Doug]

Just a few brief notes on your last post if I may. Hope no one minds.

Doug, if I believed commentaries I would not believe that God is love. :bigGrin:

About 20 years ago I used to go on some nice long walks with a few verses in my hand that I would read over and over again and think about. Ones like this which are very hard to understand.
This text presents some difficulties in many of the commentaries because it seems to read differently from the typical interpretation of 1 Cor. Chapter 15. It looks to some commentators that Paul had changed his mind about some things.
Anyway here is a few of my thoughts in very brief: 

It seems to me that the principle of consistency of terms used locks us into the old covenant tabernacle, at least in the first few verses of 2 Cor. 5 

These verses do indeed allude to "tents," or "tabernacles," such as the Israelites dwelt in when they were in the wilderness, and there is a contrast between those tents, and the stone and timber houses that they had when they dwelt in the promised land.

These were metaphors that Paul used to illustrate the contrast between our present human, mortal state, and our eternal inheritance, that we will have at the resurrection.

Barry's interpretation obscures this.  :bsad:

2 Cor. 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The death of a Christian is described as our "earthly house of this tabernacle" being destroyed. The word "tabernacle" refers to a "tent."

The James Burton Coffman Commentary says:
Earthly house ... tabernacle ...
The word here is actually "tent," which is as good a symbol of that which is transient and temporary as could be imagined. Paul was a tentmaker, and this is exactly the type of metaphor that should have been expected from him; and, added to that was the fact of Israel's having dwelt in tents during the forty years of the wilderness wanderings. No tent could last permanently when exposed to the elements; and the same is true of people's mortal bodies when exposed to the inevitable erosion of time.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=005

Our present bodies are subject to infirmities as we age. But our inheritance, that God is preparing is not subject to decay. Coffman says, when we are "clothed with that wonderful and glorious spiritual body, decay and death shall be no more; and the soul of the redeemed shall enjoy eternal life... The great affirmation of Christianity is that all of the subliminal longings for immortality in human hearts shall be gloriously realized in Christ Jesus."

2 Cor. 5:2
For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven.

Coffman writes:
In this we groan ...
has reference to mortal infirmity and the increasing burden of years which press more and more upon every earthly life. Paul's own extraordinary hardships and sufferings might have been in view primarily in this place; but, as Kelcy said, "In this body we groan from pains to which flesh is heir."  Or, as Filson stated it: "This reflects Paul's desire to be free from the afflictions and imperfections of this life."

Longing to be clothed upon ...
The notion that Paul was here expressing a dread of being a disembodied spirit during the interval between death and the judgment is obviously incorrect. "Clothed upon" does not refer to something Paul hoped for at death but to the ultimate replacement of the old body with a new one in the final day. The idea is that of "putting on a new garment to replace the old one." Some commentators, arguing from the peculiar expression "clothed upon," have interpreted this as something that would be done to the physical body, and not to something that would replace it.

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen  :thumbsup: If we're not hoping to live and not die, then we are as those that have no hope. Blessings....

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug and Cardinal,

To reiterate:
The physical body is not made with hands. God made it. There is no scripture anywhere that suports any other posibility.

Coffman Commentary says:
A building from God ...
This does not deny that people's mortal bodies are also, in a sense, "from God"; but it has special reference to that God-created spiritual body which shall replace the decaying bodies of mortal flesh.

A house not made with hands ...
Paul made tents with his hands; but the glorious resurrection body is far above and beyond anything that human hands might contrive.

Did that actually deal with the problem of the verse. Clearly not IMO. The physical body is not made with hands anywhere in scripture is and contrary to the fact that God made us.

God does not have a problem with the physical. We do. And that's our problem.
If God had a problem with the physical then why did he stretch out the heavens as a "tent" to dwell in?

To reiterate:
Adam was made from the dust of the earth but was alive until he came under law so then was declared a man of the dust.
God did not have a problem with the physical.

A spiritual verses physical dichotomy is arbitrarily formed in our minds because of the implication of the independent human potential. Human potential is bound to the physical. So then Adam became merely a man of the dust when he came under law.

He was already physical and was alive.
You see you don't get a "resurrection" unless there is a reference of a preexisting life already. If Adam was never "alive" then there cannot be a resurrection. Adam was made physical but he was not created dead. He died coming under law.

Resurrection has nothing to do with post mortem continuity. Resurrection is life given for this life. Whether that be those at his coming or whether that be the historical life of the past lives lived here. Those who received not the promise who where not made perfect apart from the firstfruits.

So far as the "spirit" is concerned:
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Resurrection is for this life not for post mortem continuity.

Paul as a Hebrew was still part of that made with hands tabernacle in that types and figures were still valid. Though he had no confidence in them he still respected them as figures of good things to come. The Gentiles were not permitted to participate in Israel's natural things.

This is why Paul refused to circumcise Titus.
Gal 2:3   But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

But what does Paul do to Timothy? 

Act 16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father [was] a Greek: 
Act 16:2   Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. 
Act 16:3   Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

So then Titus who was completely Greek would not be circumcised but Timothy who was partly Jew could be without any contradiction in all that Paul taught the Churches of Galatia.
Act 21:20   And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 
Act 21:21   And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs {falsely of course}. 
Act 21:22   What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 
Act 21:23   Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 
Act 21:24   Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 
Act 21:25   As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. 
Act 21:27   And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, 

What the heck is Paul thinking of!!!!!?????

2Cr 5:4   For we {the Hebrews} that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, {without a covenant clothing} but clothed upon {waiting for the fullness of the new covenant clothing}, that mortality {the old glory that is passing away 2 Corinthians the whole of chapter 2} might be swallowed up of {new covenant} life.
This is a reiteration of Chapter 3:
2Cr 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written [and] engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which [glory] was passing away, 
2Cr 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
2Cr 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation [had] glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 
2Cr 3:10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 
2Cr 3:11 For if what is passing away [was] glorious, what remains [is] much more glorious. 
2Cr 3:12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech-- 
2Cr 3:13 unlike Moses, [who] put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 
2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the [veil] is taken away in Christ. 
2Cr 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 
2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. 
2Cr 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory {of the old covenant} to glory {of the new covenant}, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Now what death to life is this??
And what clothing is this:

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
The clothing is covenantal!

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
What death was to be swallowed up in victory?  Covenant death!

They were not participating in the seed analogy because they were physically dead in the earth but rather because they were dieing with Christ.

Phl 3:5   Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 
Phl 3:6   Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 
Phl 3:7   But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 
Phl 3:8   Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, 
Phl 3:9   And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 
Phl 3:10   That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 
Phl 3:11   If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

This has nothing directly to do with physical death!! This is covenantal.
Resurrection had nothing to do with post mortem continuity.
Salvation had nothing nor has nothing to do with going to heaven to be with God.
The spirit returned and returns to God who gave it. Always has always will.
Resurrection was out of the law.
Salvation is for this life.

Whether we live or whether we die we are the lords. There is no denial on my part of postmortem continuity at all. Of course there is hope of life after death. It's just that this is not the topic at hand. 

Blessing Barry

 

[Doug]

Phl 3:8   Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, 
Phl 3:9   And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 
Phl 3:10   That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 
Phl 3:11   If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

This has nothing directly to do with physical death!!

Sure it does. IMO. Solving the problem of death is what the gospel is all about.

Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

The "great light" is the gospel that Jesus preached, about the kingdom of God. [Mat. 4:15-17]

But Barry's comments obscure the light and truth!  :bsad:

This is covenantal.

God's covenant with Abraham was about mercy. [Psa. 106:1; 107:1, 118, 1,2,3,4,29; Psa. 136; Dan. 9:4, etc.] And the Gospel is the good news about the mercy of God to man, in dealing with the problem of death and sin. The gospel was preached to Abraham [Gal. 3:8] and Christ came "To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham." [Luke 1:72-73]

Dan. 9:27 says he will "confirm the covenant for one week" which is of course a prophetic week or seven times; the last part of it is called "a time, times and a half" which represents the entire age of the church. [Dan. 7:25, 12:7; Rev. 12:6, 14]

Resurrection had nothing to do with post mortem continuity.

The promise of a resurrection from the grave is at the very center of the true gospel. Paul said to Felix the governor:

Acts 24:14-15
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Who would say the Paul was referring to anything but the resurrection of humans from the grave here?

Salvation had nothing nor has nothing to do with going to heaven to be with God.
The spirit returned and returns to God who gave it. Always has always will.
Resurrection was out of the law.
Salvation is for this life.

Whether we live or whether we die we are the lords. There is no denial on my part of postmortem continuity at all. Of course there is hope of life after death. It's just that this is not the topic at hand. 

Blessing Barry

Barry's comments obscure the great truths of the gospel, in the epistles of Paul, about the resurrection of the saints to immortality, as he tries to promote his preterist opinions. What a shame! The great light of Christ's resurrection exposes that flawed interpretation, because Jesus remains alive. His generation has not passed away! Christ is the only human who has obtained immortality.

1 Tim. 6:15-16
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug,
Quote:
But Barry's comments obscure the light and truth!
End quote.

Quote.
Barry's comments obscure the great truths of the gospel,
End quote.

Kind of like being in a room where people are talking about you and they know that you can here them :)

I'll make this my last post on this thread to offer a moment of reflection in my absence. I'm not upset in any way just think it's wise.

Understanding clothing:
Clothing is covenantal and relates to righteousness, justification, and vindication.
 
Zec 3:3   Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 
Zec 3:4   And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. 


2Cr 5:3   If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 
2Cr 5:4   For we that are in [this] tabernacle {of the old covenant order as illustrated in my above post} do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

This is clearly what Paul is alluding too and not some bodiless spirit waiting for the resurrection which would in no way correspond to the Adam situation.
Paul is saying that the end result is not to be "unclothed" but rather God's eternal clothing which is the eternal covenant. Mortality and corruptibility of the old covenant that was passing away, is "swallowed up of life" (2 Corinthians chapter 3, being transformed from the ministry of death to life from the glory of the old which is passing away to the glory of the new).

Adam was in essence a covenant man without clothing. Because he did not need one because he did not have "history" and because he did not know independence (IE come under law).

Adam did not have a revelation of God's unconditional love. So he was not "clothed" with this. Nor could he be. He could not know unconditional love without first knowing conditions. Which equates with being judged and condemned in his "conscience".
So Adam was naked and was not ashamed. He had no history. He is unclothed.

Paul is saying that the result of the taking away of the old tabernacle made with hands, is not to be naked but rather to be covered with the unconditional love of God.

The covering is always covenantal.
Adam's death was sin death. To that there is a first death and a second death. Hence Jude's "twice dead".

Adam died when he knew sin. So he needed a covering. Unconditional love was not yet revealed, so he needed a natural covering. He fully became a natural man, so he needed a natural covering. God gave him an animal skin to cover his nakedness from himself (not from God), in an independent human potential.

This natural covering would end. That's the second death. Israel came to embody the natural covering.

They are a micro cosmos of the whole.
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people. 

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished. 

But if you show unconditional love to one of your children then you have shown it to all of your children.

The death that spread to all men is sin death.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Paul poetically exemplifies this in himself as one under law for righteousness as a Hebrew apart from Christ.

Rom 7:9   For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

This is not speaking of biological death. It never did speak of this except only as the point of becoming merely a man of the dust as one who is in the status of an independent human potential. This is where Adam was declared to be a man of the dust covenantally. Prior to this he was biological and naked and not ashamed but very much alive.

God likes the physical so much that he stretched out the heavens as a tent to dwell in. He likes potential so much that he created chaos and then started working with it. Now he is giving his offspring similar opportunities in our short duration here!

However:
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

The law does not govern the spirit once the spirit has left the body.
In 1 Peter, the spirits in prison are in prison "during the construction of the ark".

Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.   

Isa 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works [are] works of iniquity, and the act of violence [is] in their hands. 

Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels. 

Clothing is covenantal.

As long as types and figures are present, they cannot see the fullness of love without condition.

1Cr 13:10   But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 
1Cr 13:11   When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 
1Cr 13:12   For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.  {See 1 Cor. 8:3 for a definition of "known"}

The types and figures have to be removed. The law has to end. The old tabernacle has to be dissolved.
We are clothed in the revelation of God's love without condition. Death has been swallowed up of life. And I will abide in the house of the Lord forever.

2Cr 5:3   If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 

If the above verse is an expression of Paul's concern about being a spirit without a body then why does he not express that concern anywhere else?

2Cr 12:2   I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 
2Cr 12:3   And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 
2Cr 12:4   How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Apparently Paul himself went there did not even know, and could not even say!

He's not worried about it here:
Phl 1:21   For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain. 
Phl 1:22   But if I live in the flesh, this [is] the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 
Phl 1:23   For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 
Phl 1:24   Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you.

In fact it does not look like he is saying that at all does it?  But why?
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

What does this mean then?
Acts 24:14-15
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The resurrection of the dead is the raising up of the life of this life in the consummation of the age.

Mat 12:41   The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here. 
Mat 12:42   The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here. 

The resurrection of the dead is not for the purpose of given disembodied spirits new bodies. Rather it brings to life the life of this life. How does that even make any sense. Why would they be waiting for the resurrection to get a new body? If God wants to give them one in heaven or paradise or whatever one wants to call it, does God have to wait for something to take place here on earth? And why?
That make really no sense IMO. On the contrary if resurrection is for this life then waiting for the law to end paints the full picture of resurrection.

1Cr 15:17   And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. 
1Cr 15:18   Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. { without resurrection their life is then never vindicated because the law would always cast a shadow on that life} 
1Cr 15:19   If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1Cr 15:21   For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 
1Cr 15:22   For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Cr 15:51   Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Why and how???
According to the seed analogy of that which is typically derived from this context this would be impossible. Because the seed cannot come alive unless it dies. If this death is biological then all cannot be changed unless they all die biologically.

If the death is covenantal, then all can come alive, both them there in their life span and those who have already fallen asleep historically. Biological death however is then not a prerequisite.
If however this is about Biological death such is then the prerequisite because the body must die to then live. Death is essential in this scenario.


1Cr 15:52   In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 
1Cr 15:53   For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

What is he talking about?
1Cr 15:55   O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? 
1Cr 15:56   The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 

And that is what I've been saying from the beginning. It is resurrection out of sin death.
The body of transition for the firstfuits was the body of Christ.
There are only two men in the Chapter. Adam and Christ.
It is not the resurrection of the bodies! It is the resurrection of the Body.

Just as in Jude the Body of Moses was Israel. This is not a western book we are reading. These folks spoke in concepts of "collectives" that many people were a part of.

Blessings and love
Barry





 

[sheila]

  my  :2c:

   We need to look at both sides of the 'coin' so to speak.

  the curses and blessings. Just as the token of the Holy spirit

 was given as to the inheritance of those that beleived and put

faith in Jesus Christ, so,too the curses entered the house of

the robber and theif [jews chose this spirit over Christ]

 which resulted in their house[1st temple] becoming desolate.


  Now those that received Christ fled the coming destruction

per the prophecy of Jesus.   A man's years are 70 years..

think it a coincidence that the old temple was destroyed in 70

AD?  That wicked generation's house became desolate in 70AD


 Jesus Christ was perfect among a perverse generation,and

those that put faith in him,were preserved from the judgemnt

of that  wicked generation.

  so, this generation shall not pass until all things are fufilled

 means both those forgiven in Christ..and those that rejected

the Christ to their own demise.


  For the Christ seed is for regeneration of degenerated man...

 and the 42 generation heralded the promised seed. A

generation is 70 years, counting down from 42 you have the

year 2940, minus the present year of 2010 = 930...which is

minus 70 or minus the wicked generation that refused Christ

in the 1000 year reign of Christ. Also Adam lived 930 years in

the flesh= 70 years short and the cutting off of that wicked

generation in man. For God Himself cuts the days short or no

flesh would be saved

[Zeek]

It is not the resurrection of the bodies! It is the resurrection of the Body.

 

:banana: :banana: :trampoline: :trampoline:

[rosered]

As long as types and figures are present, they cannot see the fullness of love without condition.

 Yes Bro the veil  , that has hid Christ that is to say His flesh

 we love to SEE HIM ..
 IS THIS WHY WE EAT hIS FLESH AND DRINK hIS BLOOD FOR STRENGTH AND   THE END WE see him  as He is  a Spiritual   Giant ?  revealed
renown    from no reputation to  known  by all every knee with bow and every tongue confess Him ...  than  can  we Love as we ought ..

 lets clarify 
flesh and blood cannot inhert the kingdom of God , but if we eat and Drink Jesus blood   we will be full of Jesus Christ  and SEE HIM    we cannot keep eating and drinking one anothers blood   we  wont see Jesus  that way

  see how simple  some are  i am one who cannot get it  complicated .. :mblush:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen guys, the second covenant is one that is spiritual........Blessings....

PS to Barry........I do see some of the natural mindset things you're seeing, but the second covenant is spiritual.

[Zeek]

:cloud9: Amen guys, the second covenant is one that is spiritual........Blessings....

PS to Barry........I do see some of the natural mindset things you're seeing, but the second covenant is spiritual.

and what does the second covenant "spiritual" mean to you?  

seems to me that you think it is a journey from the "old to new", but in an "inward way"?  ie: that one must walk through the "spiritual old" to the "spiritual new"?  ie: an inward journey


is that what the second "spiritual new" means to you?  


and because you used the word "but" to Barry, re: natural mindset and "spiritual second", I take it you don't see him seeing the second covenant as "spiritual"?  can you explain why you perceive Barry to be saying that re: the second?  I'd be willing to bet, he sees the second as "spiritual" too.  Hopefully he'll respond too.  

this "spiritual" definition of the second, to me; is very important; and hopefully will "tie" some things together for me.

thanks.  

[Molly]

:cloud9: Amen guys, the second covenant is one that is spiritual........Blessings....

PS to Barry........I do see some of the natural mindset things you're seeing, but the second covenant is spiritual.

Yes, of course.  That's why there is no longer Greek or Jew.  There is no bloodline that is over another.  It no longer has anything to do with circumstances of birth on this earth, but of birth from above.

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.



[Although I cannot say why it is this way.  Why did God do it this way?]

[sheila]

   Because the first man returns to the earth from which he came

  and the secound man returns to God

[Molly]

   Because the first man returns to the earth from which he came

  and the secound man returns to God

So it is just illustrative of a truth that was always there?

There was always only one covenant?

[Molly]

One thing people tend to forget, the first covenant with Abraham, the Gentile,  was with all the peoples of the world--


Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.



And, with Jesus likewise--


John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Because there was always only one covenant seed.


Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

[Barry DuPont]

:cloud9: Amen guys, the second covenant is one that is spiritual........Blessings....

PS to Barry........I do see some of the natural mindset things you're seeing, but the second covenant is spiritual.

Forgive me for lying about my last post :)
Spiritual is not anti physical. It is anti independence.

"Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" is speaking of the independence of the person under the natural covenant and not the biology of the person as a fact of physicality.

If we think it is biology then we can never fully accept God's unconditional love while we are here for we then will always be at odds with being here.

Jhn 1:12   But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:  Jhn 1:13   Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The above is not defined in biology. The issue is flesh and blood under law shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Luk 24:39   Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 
Luk 24:40   And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet. 
Luk 24:41   And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42   And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 
Luk 24:43   And he took [it], and did eat before them.

2Cr 5:16   Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. 

How so?
Gal 4:4   But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 
Gal 4:5   To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 

The flesh as biology is never the definition of the point in question. But rather it is the law that made the flesh the flesh that it was. "in the flesh" means under law.

Gal 1:14   And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 
Gal 1:15   But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, 
Gal 1:16   To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 
Gal 1:17   Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Rom 8:2   For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 
Rom 8:3   For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 
Rom 8:4   That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 
Rom 8:5   For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 
Rom 8:6   For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 
Rom 8:7   Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 
Rom 8:8   So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 

What is Paul saying then:
1Cr 15:49   And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 
1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


1Cr 15:56   The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 
1Cr 15:57   But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Victory over what, our biology?
Victory over our physicality?
No. Victory over the law, which made flesh the flesh that it was which was death.

Adam was alive and then he died. He died because he did not have a relelation of the unconditional love of God. He became theirfore fully a man of the dust and a man of the flesh.

We are given more aboundant life than Adam ever had because we are clothed in the immortality of love without condition.

Rom 5:17   For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 
Rom 5:18   Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. 
Rom 5:19   For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 
Rom 5:20   Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:  
Rom 5:21   That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. 

But this is accomplished in its fullness in the end of types and figures.
If biology itself defines the meaning is types and figures then we can never fully know God's unconditional love.

And that IMHO would be crying shame. And that IMHO is why Christians constantly struggle in guilt and performance and can never really just let go and let God. They don't feel fully covered.

JMO
Barry

[Molly]

The above is not defined in biology. The issue is flesh and blood under law shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Victory over what, our biology?
Victory over our physicality?
No. Victory over the law, which made flesh the flesh that it was which was death.

Yes.  I really like that.  Which is why he covered them with animal skins--it was the only thing he could cover them with under the law.  This is why those who consider themselves under the law see everyone else as animals.  But, they themselves will suffer the same fate--


6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

--Psa 82

[Barry DuPont]

The above is not defined in biology. The issue is flesh and blood under law shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Victory over what, our biology?
Victory over our physicality?
No. Victory over the law, which made flesh the flesh that it was which was death.

Yes.  I really like that.  Which is why he covered them with animal skins--it was the only thing he could cover them with under the law.  This is why those who consider themselves under the law see everyone else as animals.  But, they themselves will suffer the same fate--


6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

--Psa 82

Yes Molly,

2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 

Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Dan 4:30   The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?  
Dan 4:31 While the word [was] in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, [saying], O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. 
Dan 4:32   And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling [shall be] with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. 
Dan 4:33   The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' [feathers], and his nails like birds' [claws]. 
Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:

IMHO is was not God intent that man stay forever in this mentality.

When he made man and women he said that it was very good.
God said that we are wonderfully made.
He calls us his offspring.
Just some thoughts.

Barry

[rosered]

It is anti independence

  You know  when i read the shack  ,  it helped me see this more clear
of what Adam/Eve us  was/ are  experiencing,
 God gave him dominion over  the earth and all Gods creatures  
that  may make  one pridefully free  and independent  , their cominunion with God was in the cool of the day a breeze / Spirit  perhaps  
when that was cut off they  were forced outside of Eden  the garden of God  

 independence

–noun 1. Also, independency. the state or quality of being independent.
2. freedom from the control, influence, support, aid, or the like, of others.
3. Archaic. a competency.



seems that was a  real mistake on    Adams / our part   to even think such things , knowing better now    and to be forgiven of sin / guilt  offerings  :mblush:

[Molly]

It is anti independence

  You know  when i read the shack  ,  it helped me see this more clear
of what Adam/Eve us  was/ are  experiencing,
 God gave him dominion over  the earth and all Gods creatures  
that  may make  one pridefully free  and independent  , their cominunion with God was in the cool of the day a breeze / Spirit  perhaps  
when that was cut off they  were forced outside of Eden  the garden of God  

 independence

–noun 1. Also, independency. the state or quality of being independent.
2. freedom from the control, influence, support, aid, or the like, of others.
3. Archaic. a competency.



seems that was a  real mistake on    Adams / our part   to even think such things , knowing better now    and to be forgiven of sin / guilt  offerings  :mblush:

It was the original temptation--you don't need the Big Man--

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

--Gen 3


But this is the lie.  They are gods to whom the word of God came--but they will die like men.

[rosered]

 

  wow that was awesome Molly  :girlheart:

  so true this is ...

  and the Lord also said


The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that you , being a man, maket yourself God. 


Jhn 10:34   Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You  are gods? 


Jhn 10:35   If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 


Jhn 10:36   Say your  of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, You  blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God? 
Jhn 10:37   If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 


 


Jhn 10:38   But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him. 

 
      the little gods as men thing really  makes        ya think !!

 

[Barry DuPont]

  wow that was awesome Molly  :girlheart:

  so true this is ...

  and the Lord also said


The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that you , being a man, maket yourself God. 


Jhn 10:34   Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You  are gods? 


Jhn 10:35   If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 


Jhn 10:36   Say your  of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, You  blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God? 
Jhn 10:37   If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 


 


Jhn 10:38   But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him. 

 
      the little gods as men thing really  makes        ya think !!

 

Yes, and think we shall. There (in what you said) we see both the risk of neglecting our potential as the offspring of God and how wonderful that really is, and also the risk of pride through independence as Molly brought up as that attached to the temptation of the serpent in the garden.


Act 17:28   For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 
Act 17:29   Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Dogs don't come from cats. Cows don't come from chickens.
But we are the offspring of God. 

Barry

[rosered]

  wow that was awesome Molly  :girlheart:

  so true this is ...

  and the Lord also said


The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that you , being a man, maket yourself God. 


Jhn 10:34   Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You  are gods? 


Jhn 10:35   If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 


Jhn 10:36   Say your  of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, You  blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God? 
Jhn 10:37   If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 


 


Jhn 10:38   But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him. 

 
      the little gods as men thing really  makes        ya think !!

 

Yes, and think we shall. There (in what you said) we see both the risk of neglecting our potential as the offspring of God and how wonderful that really is, and also the risk of pride through independence as Molly brought up as that attached to the temptation of the serpent in the garden.


Act 17:28   For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 
Act 17:29   Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Dogs don't come from cats. Cows don't come from chickens.
But we are the offspring of God. 

Barry

Exactly Bro Barry ,   exercising   pride  in that earthly wisdom /of  first adam
   that we call no man  common or unclean
this could very easily be the Lords Spirit  speaking through any one He so chooses to do .....  our correction and being taught of the voices of many waters from above    and many membered Body it is Christs ...

example
  And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him]. 


Act 10:26   But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. 

Act 10:27   And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

  Act 10:28 And he said unto them, You  know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

with  what God gave Peter  he went and shared this with  everyone  from that point on
    showing obedience   as    the Lord showed Cornelius  the same  mercy 

  because of fearing the Lord  the  begining of  godly wisdom  to his house .

  Joining in the same Body and One Spirit  the Lords as the Lord gathers .