Tidbits of Jugghead

[marie glen]

This verse "cloud of witnesses" always makes me think of Judgment 'Day' when all things will be revealed and witnessed, I believe very much so..

The Greek and also the scripture, often speaks as though things are present.. like "we are seated in heavenly places with Jesus".. besides, the resurrection of those in Christ (afterlife/dead in Christ, which Paul said asleep in Christ, 1 thess 4) rise and those believers who are alive at the time, rise "and meet the lord at His coming" and "on that day His feet shall stand upon Mt of Olives" Zech 14:4.. from where He went up and the angels said, just as you saw Him go up so shall He return.. So Mount of Olives fits.. so yes all believers (firstfruits) meet him at His coming and 'land' with Him, so come with Him.. from which the millennial age shall proceed..

[marie glen]

As I see it, missing a loved one is a terrible thing, the cold, stark reality of seeming separation. But showing them that life is continuous is God’s gift to man (for some anyway, a glimpse through the veil can be seen) – it is only the dark barrier created by man’s wickedness which prevents the mother from seeing her child across the thick smoky veil - it was never God's intention, if only man had listened to Him in the beginning. But I believe that it is only a matter of time and the veil shall be thinned, but that is a way off in earthly years.

Apologies to jugghead
for taking up your thread

I don't think you are quite getting what I mean.. But that's okay. :gsmile: I do however, think it was God's intention life be exactly as it is.. For it is proving, to all, how the wrong way, of life not wholly submitted to Him - who is life, surely? (imo) cannot ever work. It cannot be done (and endure). Because He - is life. (Also "is perfect"/perfection.. but to avoid imperfection, opposite of life and being, from existing.. there would have to never be any thinking creatures. Yes? So if we are to think and have the ability to reason, don't we need to understand good from evil? (Life from nonlife) Or..? ..You know.. as in when God endowed thinking ability, and is not programmed fully like some sort of robot.. didn't it change everything? Didn't a whole world of possibilities come about at that very second? Or a tree? Which only able to be honest and of Truth... there was that tree in the midst of the garden.. Quite purposely.. quite wisely.. :cloud9: The wrong way can only result in apocalypse - in its modern understanding of the word. Individual and collective. And that I believe, is the true meaning of the word, apocalypse - "the unveiling". Like lambs we surely have the capacity (along /w angels?) to be rather deaf and blind..

So really.. isn't experience the only way we would ever really get it? Harsh, cold reality.. Face to face with the understanding of just what a horrible horror the wrong way is. I believe history/review/judgment 'day' will be the witnessing. The final full bringing home of the message.. Besides drawing all through love, glory and unbelievable awe, I believe the harsh reality of just what the wrong/forbidden way is, will also result in every knee bending and every heart "wholeheartedly" confessing/saying "Jesus is Lord". ) And in that way, of total convincing, understanding and clarity, God will not have to babysit "all in heaven and earth" for ever and ever.. as they like to say.. :gsmile: :Peace2:

...I actually think we rob ourselves if we not allow ourselves to comprehend the true horror of death.. able to weep over news reports.. families losing members.. etc.. etc.. I believe the Holy Spirit.. for now.. very much is a weeping spirit.. I mean, if He is life, doesn't He not only witness, but experience all sufferings which ever occur? :Chinscratch: Why put Himself, and all, through that? :dontknow: Maybe because it's not some sort of robots He's creating..

[MusicLover123]

Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us

Not used to Biblehub, but here is a page on compassed

https://biblehub.com/topical/c/compassed.htm

17then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be

I just noticed something, that Hebrews 12 speaks of a "cloud" and 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of "clouds." Sure that is significant of something.

And, it isn't the case of one cloud per person. Look at this verse:

Luke 9
34and as he was speaking these things, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them, and they feared in their entering into the cloud,

So, would these be living witnesses surrounding us? You know, if they were in higher dimensions than us, they would literally be surrounding us, them seeing us and not us seeing them.

A while ago I did a Strong's search on James 4:14. Don't vapors have to do with clouds? And, if I remember correctly, the phrase "vanish away" roots in basically hidden away, like we are hidden away in God. Also something about the light not exposing something.

[sheila]

just as water changes it's form when thefaceof the sun shines on it...and is drawnup into cloud form..so,too,we are changed..when

that which was mortal puts on  immortality...for when we see Him face to face..we will be just like Him.


GLORY CLOUD...in the temple......when God come down. :2c:

[lastpost]

Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us

Not used to Biblehub, but here is a page on compassed

https://biblehub.com/topical/c/compassed.htm

17then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be

I just noticed something, that Hebrews 12 speaks of a "cloud" and 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of "clouds." Sure that is significant of something.

And, it isn't the case of one cloud per person. Look at this verse:

Luke 9
34and as he was speaking these things, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them, and they feared in their entering into the cloud,

So, would these be living witnesses surrounding us? You know, if they were in higher dimensions than us, they would literally be surrounding us, them seeing us and not us seeing them.

A while ago I did a Strong's search on James 4:14. Don't vapors have to do with clouds? And, if I remember correctly, the phrase "vanish away" roots in basically hidden away, like we are hidden away in God. Also something about the light not exposing something.

I appreciate your insight, thank you.

I would perhaps say not only "surrounding" but existing simultaneously. We today are more aware of the possibility of a number of "invisible" realities passing through us and solid walls in a way not possible to imagine to those of times long past, and I therefore think that the human race today has a certain advantage when considering the existence of invisible beings.

I used that the word "intended" before but perhaps a better word is "preferred". I believe (and I know most others don't) that there were some of God's children who didn't fall as far as this material earth because they were in more reverence to the wishes of the Lord. And that is yet another reason for those who have fallen this far to accept their own responsibility; along with not blaming someone else, i.e. Adam, such as in the received form of the Genesis parable (as I believe it is).

It is my opinion that because God is Love, then He is at the centre of all, seeking each and every way that He can to help His children on their pilgrimage Home, adhering strictly to the laws which sustain an orderly existence which He has deemed essential for the restoration of His children; and He does not leave His children ignorant of physical death, and therefore gives the gift of the possibility of knowing that their departed loved ones live on, alive, well and happy, if they have followed their duty to the Divine Love of Christ. It is a gift, I have known it (in my opinion) for decades, and I treat it as very sacred personally; it presents to me a higher vision of the Love of God, and it is, in my opinion, the course of action that the dearest Divine Heart would take in contrast to letting His children suffer in ignorance more than they need to due to the veil created by fallen man as a whole. There are subtleties which generalisations do not make available, so that is the gist of my opinion.

[marie glen]

Like we fell and it took God by surprise? And so He had/has to rescue us? (I agree we need saving. Without His intercession, the wages/result of sin is death..)

[MusicLover123]

I feel lightning has to do with clouds too. A topic on lightning:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/living-in-the-lightning-realm/

[marie glen]

just as water changes it's form when thefaceof the sun shines on it...and is drawnup into cloud form..so,too,we are changed..when

that which was mortal puts on  immortality...for when we see Him face to face..we will be just like Him.


GLORY CLOUD...in the temple......when God come down. :2c:

:thumbsup:


-----------------

I think the only unseen entities the bible talks about are angels.. And it does say they are "watching". But I do think we will see more of the idea of 'ghosts' in the world however. And the study of weather surely is very fascinating.. And some of it is in the Old Testament..

[lastpost]

Like we fell and it took God by surprise? And so He had/has to rescue us?

Most loving sentient people would prefer their children not to have painful accidents, so ask obedience to rules of personal care.

But if their children violate the rules of personal care, parents are not surprised should an accident happen. And they enter the healthcare system prepared for them.

Personally, I let Love be the Instructor. The reason I let Love be the Instructor is because I believe that the mind of man cannot fathom the heights of love and settles for less, so my rule is always that if it does not come up to the highest standards of Love then the mind of man has put the words together.

Further edit: jugghead's gems is one of the best threads I've come across on Tentmaker - thank you.

[marie glen]

Do you believe in our pre-existence? Like we fell and became human? (Note, I do not ask this, because it's something I believe.)

Or did the human race all inherit the fall from Adam and Eve?

Isn't heaven coming to Earth? Or is it your belief the only purpose of creation (is it black and white? no color?) is to create souls only.. Or you believe we are the fallen rebel angels? So that the unseen (by us) is the only true reality? That the physical universe is a spiritual universe fallen into matter? Instead of the curse (entropy) come about because mankind through Adam was given dominion of the Earth and having fallen into imperfection (of character) the Earth too was subjected to imperfection.

And all of it "willingly subjected by God"... If that's true, God engineered the fall in Adam and Eve thus insuring all take this unavoidable(?) journey all together at once, since all of humanity upon Earth, God says came from Adam and Eve.. Or you think this is all metaphor somehow.. Not really 'accurately' true? God wanting all to remain mysteries..? If we weren't all in the loins of Adam.. What is your belief?

We are obviously, not at all understanding each other? :gsmile:

[marie glen]

 :Chinscratch: I was thinking, maybe cloud of witnesses is a turn of speech.. Is that an idiom? I can't remember.. A figure of speech.. a cliche.. I love cliches! I love to use them.. even old ones.. and I don't care if someone has never heard it before.. I love 'em that much..

I'm kind of leaning toward thinking that people will often want to metaphor what is literal, and make literal, what is metaphor.. :laughing7:

[MusicLover123]

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnessesG3144, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us

G3144
μάρτυς
martus
mar'-toos
Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a "martyr": - martyr, record, witness.
Total KJV occurrences: 34

Is it fair to say that we are surrounded by hidden martyrs?

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about withG2254 so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us

G2254
ἡμῖν
hēmin
hay-meen'
Dative plural of G1473; to (or for, with, by) us: - our, (for) us, we.
Total KJV occurrences: 179

G1473
ἐγώ
egō
eg-o'
A primary pronoun of the first person, "I" (only expressed when emphatic): - I, me. For the other cases and the plural see G1691, G1698, G1700, G2248, G2249, G2254, G2257, etc.
Total KJV occurrences: 368

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us

G4029
περίκειμαι
perikeimai
per-ik'-i-mahee
From G4012 and G2749; to lie all around, that is, inclose, encircle, hamper (literally or figuratively): - be bound (compassed) with, hang about.
Total KJV occurrences: 5

G4012
περί
peri
per-ee'
From the base of G4008; properly through (all over), that is, around; figuratively with respect to; used in various applications, of place, cause or time (with the genitive case denoting the subject or occasion or superlative point; with the accusative case the locality, circuit, matter, circumstance or general period): - (there-) about, above, against, at, on behalf of, X and his company, which concern, (as) concerning, for, X how it will go with, ([there-, where-]) of, on, over, pertaining (to), for sake, X (e-) state, (as) touching, [where-] by (in), with. In compounds it retains substantially the same meaning of circuit (around), excess (beyond), or completeness (through).
Total KJV occurrences: 329

G4008
πέραν
peran
per'-an
Apparently the accusative case of an obsolete derivation of πείρω peirō (to "peirce"); through (as adverb or preposition), that is, across: - beyond, farther (other) side, over.
Total KJV occurrences: 23

G2749
κεῖμαι
keimai
ki'-mahee
Middle voice of a primary verb; to lie outstretched (literally or figuratively): - be (appointed, laid up, made, set), lay, lie. Compare G5087.
Total KJV occurrences: 26


A couple other interesting translations:

Rotherham Heb 12:1  Therefore, indeed, seeing that, we also, have encircling us, so great a cloud of witnesses, stripping off every incumbrance and the easily entangling sin, with endurance, let us be running, the race that is lying before us

TCNT Heb 12:1  Seeing, therefore, that there is on every side of us such a throng of witnesses, let us also lay aside everything that hinders us, and the sin that clings about us, and run with patient endurance the race that lies before us

JMNT Heb 12:1  By certain consequence, then, we also, continuously having so great a cloud of witnesses (spectators) environing us (lying around and encompassing us; surrounding us), putting off from ourselves all bulk (every weight; all that is prominent) and the easily-environing (skillfully-surrounding) failure (sin; error), we may through remaining under (patient endurance) be continuously running the racecourse continuously lying before us

[MusicLover123]

Ah yes, just realized, thanks to the Cross Reference on Esword, that when it says "seeing" it is "by Faith." Don't forget that Paul mentions:

Rom 8:24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 
Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 

2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 

[marie glen]

But I don' think that means there is a vast audience in heaven watching us as we live out our life.. I believe it to be a reference to 'day' of judgment when all things will be witnessed..

And the things we do not see - receiving in prayer, I don't think has to do with that either, but if I am praying for healing, or whatever, I give thanks for it, as though I already see it, and not as though I do not see it.. or more generally we believe in His return, etc, but we don't yet see it..
:Peace2:

[MusicLover123]

Why not both?  :LH:

Hebrews 11 speaks of those who have gone before us, so I think it makes sense for 12:1 to be a continuation of that.

We believe on the Son, right? He still exists right now, but we don't see Him yet. Unless He appears to you, which I hope I'm one of those people.

[sheila]

Paul spoke about s being a spectacle..and  we are/  wings fullof eyes[wings=in spirit form-watching. Satan goes to and fro in the

earth..watching..and so does God's spirit and spirit creatures. it's like a big stage in heaven where newly risen hosts..watch everyday

occurrences in en'slives asdidacticexercize..but they also are able to see the invisible evil sprits at work..deceiving,manipulating

men..who are for the most part totally ignorant of their unseen  adversary.

allover the world..people who appear to die...rise daily.....the are called the daily sacrifice.the orning andeveningsacrifices in the temple

represents man's life in this flesh being sacrificed so their spirit may dine/have communion with God in spirit form,forever.

  a host[church body] was given against the daily sacrifices due to transgression.=church erroneously teaching against the rising

of man's spirit unto God at death.  Moses had to stick to the pattern. andwhileitistrue that believers can sup in the spiritintoken

formwhile inourphysicalbody....the FULLNESS is when we leave this mortal body behind and put on immortality. :2c:

[jugghead]

....the FULLNESS is when we leave this mortal body behind and put on immortality. :2c:

That is worth more than  :2c: to me

salt is to food like color is to black and white ..... if the color is not seen in it's true form, then it remains grey to the color blind

[marie glen]

  :Chinscratch: I never heard that before.. is it a teaching? That the last trump is at one's death? Is individual not collective?

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (There's inserts after this in Rev which makes for confusion. A seeming big space between these verses and the two harvests (wheat & tares?) of chapter 14 ->

1 Thess. 4 -

...concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope,

14 for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,

15 for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep,

16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; (individual or collective?)

18 so, then, comfort ye one another in these words.

1 Corinthians 15 -

51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised, incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:

53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;

54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;

55 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' - Paul is here, of course, quoting an Old Testament verse, which, of course, used the word sheol, not the Greek word hades which became a place of myth..

I have heard the teaching that judgment day is not collective, but is individual.. But that, to me, anyway, sounds like a lot of missed opportunity and rather disorganized and repetitive.. How many judgment days every day..

:Chinscratch:

I know it's also believed the first resurrection and the 2nd resurrection are also individual and not collective. A teaching?

Revelation chapter 20

And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand,

2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,

3 and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years; -- It doesn't say those are the only ones who will live and serve Jesus for the thousand years. I know there is teaching which says the thousand years is metaphor and is actually occurring right now..

5 and the rest of the dead (who are these I wonder?  according to the teaching) did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [other, previous, is] the first rising again.

6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea;

9 and (in the vision) they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;

10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the (world) beast/body and the false prophet/teacher/teaching (strong delusion of latter days), and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
notice how the resurrection/2nd, occurs after the previous events, implying all will be resurrected.
12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;

13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;

14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;

15 and if any one was [still?] not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

John 5:28 - Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice..

Daniel 12:2 - And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting aionian contempt.

[sheila]

 :2c:it is an individual hour for those who precede the collective time of end[of all flesh]No-one knows but God because each is in order.

Iam thefirstandIam the last...only God knows when the full number of His children have been reached. Jesus said'Look the fields are

already ripe to harvest...many white-hair old people ready to rise.aslong as the earth endures thereshall be planting[women

bearing children[wheat] and reaping..wheat gathered in barn/harvesting/men rising.Until the final end of all flesh[full number of Zionschildren]

[lastpost]

"Unless He appears to you, which I hope I'm one of those people"

How pleasant. He may not be seen with the physical eyes but He is never apart from His charge, therefore He is already persistently here, constantly now, unceasingly always, in the present, each moment as one moment, unchanging; and even if His charge should reject Him by listening to and believing the thoughts that tell him that He is not here, He never rejects His charge; such is the Nature of Divine Love. Of this I am as sure as my life. It is only thoughts which enter the awareness – accusing thoughts – which crop up and blind us to His continual Presence.


Sheila, personally my soul is lifted when someone declares life over death...

"Paul spoke about s being a spectacle..and  we are/  wings fullof eyes[wings=in spirit form-watching. Satan goes to and fro in the

earth..watching..and so does God's spirit and spirit creatures. it's like a big stage in heaven where newly risen hosts..watch everyday

occurrences in en'slives asdidacticexercize..but they also are able to see the invisible evil sprits at work..deceiving,manipulating

men..who are for the most part totally ignorant of their unseen  adversary.

allover the world..people who appear to die...rise daily.....the are called the daily sacrifice.the orning andeveningsacrifices in the temple

represents man's life in this flesh being sacrificed so their spirit may dine/have communion with God in spirit form,forever.

  a host[church body] was given against the daily sacrifices due to transgression.=church erroneously teaching against the rising

of man's spirit unto God at death.  Moses had to stick to the pattern. andwhileitistrue that believers can sup in the spiritintoken

formwhile inourphysicalbody....the FULLNESS is when we leave this mortal body behind and put on immortality."


"it is an individual hour for those who precede the collective time of end[of all flesh]No-one knows but God because each is in order.

Iam thefirstandIam the last...only God knows when the full number of His children have been reached. Jesus said'Look the fields are

already ripe to harvest...many white-hair old people ready to rise.aslong as the earth endures thereshall be planting[women

bearing children[wheat] and reaping..wheat gathered in barn/harvesting/men rising.Until the final end of all flesh[full number of Zionschildren]"

"life and death I have set before thee, the blessing and the reviling; and thou hast fixed on life, so that thou dost live..."

[GodIsLove]

Yes, thank you Sheila for that post.

And to you too ML, I appreciate the reminders in scripture you posted.

I do recently believe in the cloud of witnesses, the body of Christ, the "communion of saints." And that all in Christ are connected NOW. And more are grafted in every day in this life and the next. Jesus's work being done continually.

I am like you, I hope to see Jesus while in this earthly life, but I know He is with us regardless of sight and we will see Him soon.

[MusicLover123]

How pleasant. He may not be seen with the physical eyes but He is never apart from His charge, therefore He is already persistently here, constantly now, unceasingly always, in the present, each moment as one moment, unchanging; and even if His charge should reject Him by listening to and believing the thoughts that tell him that He is not here, He never rejects His charge; such is the Nature of Divine Love. Of this I am as sure as my life. It is only thoughts which enter the awareness – accusing thoughts – which crop up and blind us to His continual Presence.

I know that, but I am referring to a physical manifestation, or a dream, or a vision. Like, a face to face encounter, and not just feeling His presence.

[lastpost]

I know.


Actually, I wrote here a couple of inner viewings I have had of Christ but I have removed them because they are too personal.

I expect there are a thousand thousand ways that He through whom the universes were created can and does appear to those who wish to see Him – and many, many times wherever they are!

[Cardinal]

I know.


Actually, I wrote here a couple of inner viewings I have had of Christ but I have removed them because they are too personal.

I expect there are a thousand thousand ways that He through whom the universes were created can and does appear to those who wish to see Him – and many, many times wherever they are!

Amen yes He does. I saw Him with my physical eyes, fully formed in a man. The man's flesh was like transparent to me, I saw and felt His presence, and all I could do in shock was to pat His face, sobbing, telling Him how much I love Him.  Before this trip I was sent on by Him to Oklahoma where I saw Him like this, He had spoken to me that I was on the road to Emmaus, about to see Him in another form. At the time, I had NO idea what that was going to entail. Near the end of the month I spent there, this happened, and as I said, I was shocked. Blessings.... :friendstu:

[jugghead]

Wanted to post here, what I wrote in another thread ......

I myself believe that "the end of our faith" is seen in where the word "faith" is originally taken from, it is taken from the word that means "to convince"

so if we see "the end of our faith" ..... AS ..... "the end of our convincing" ... of which "that convincing" comes from HIS SPIRIT ... then the end of our convincing becomes "TO KNOW"

and also ... "faith" also includes "believing" ..... we need to believe what we are being convinced of by His Spirit

early in my walk, (after my experience but before I believed) I did not believe the possibility of "the salvation of all" ... what I became convinced of ... by/through His Spirit is that "all things are possible with God" and if all things are possible, then the salvation of all had to become a possibility of truth IN me (baptism of water).... and then by believing in that possibility ... He then proceeded to convince me "HOW" it is possible (baptism of fire)

of which .... all of this just explains the process that "all" will go through .... which is like what Cardinal said "a baptism" it is both a baptism of water and a baptism of fire

the baptism by water IN me was to believe the possibility ..... the baptism by fire was being CONVINCED of what I believed was possible

and being convinced BY HIS SPIRIT is "to know"

of which, this all goes back to merks original opening post of "saved" and "healed" in an understanding that our "ignorance" (our lack of understanding) is a darkness of the mind, in other words "a blindness" of the mind ..... that when we are "healed" from that blindness, we are being "saved" from our lack of understanding (our ignorance).

Being "healed" from blindness ..... IS ..... being "saved" from a lack of understanding

and the proof of this understanding is in Matthew 15 .... where Jesus compares the blindness of the Pharisees to the lack of understanding of the disciples

..... IN "all things" ..... the glory of the Lord is revealed, and I believe HIS GLORY "IS" His process of salvation and understanding "how" He is accomplishing it through what was accomplished at the cross

my  :2c: