Tidbits of Jugghead

[jugghead]

Just like a light is turned on in a dark room and reveals the contents of the room ..... so does understanding reveal the contents of the heart

has the heart entered into the new covenant of grace resulting in forgiveness
OR
has the heart remained under the old covenant of the law resulting in condemnation

Does our own heart bring life (forgiveness) to others under grace
OR
Does our own heart bring death (condemnation) to others under law

[marie glen]

Amen! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: ....'hell' if it existed, would be of "law", not grace.. would not logically fit into a system of "grace"?

[jugghead]

Amen! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: ....'hell' if it existed, would be of "law", not grace.. would not logically fit into a system of "grace"?

Exactly ..... which is why ... I myself ... do not believe Armageddon is or will become "hell on earth"

I believe Armageddon is something that takes place "in" us and that the giving of life puts death to death and that "putting death to death" is Armageddon itself

my  :2c:

[jugghead]

So much to write about and not enough time in this work existence to do it. But even that concept, in the context of time, is an example of being impatient. Why are we in such a hurry to get the news out when God isn't? We live in this physical existence and know that at some point within this existence, we will cease to be directly connected to it through the means of our physical body; in other words, we know this physical body will die.

When we come to understand things through and by His Spirit, we should no longer fear the death of this physical body. The apostle Paul tells us that in the words "to die is gain" and through the words "absent from the body, present with the Lord". To look upon mankind and see that the majority of people live in fear, the fear of not knowing what will happen once they have crossed over, is to mourn for them; to weep for them ..... of which is exactly what I believe is a deeper understanding of "Jesus wept". I believe He was weeping for those who were weeping because they did not understand the purpose of the death of the physical body.

But just as we cross over from infancy into childhood, and then from childhood into adulthood, it is this physical example of understanding that can bring peace to the mind of the one who chooses to believe that our own spiritual life, in itself, is this journey of our spirit.

What I mean by this is seeing the bigger picture of the process of growing up. We started out in the presence of our Lord as an infant, then at some point during the process of growing into maturity, we then are crossing over into childhood. The thing is with this understanding, there is no definite line as to know an exact point this takes place.

We know in this physical existence that at some point in a child's life it can start to rebel against it's parents, the first examples being, that the child does not want to do what the parent is asking. I believe it is before this point of rebellion in the heavenly; the spiritual realm, that we are then sent into a physical body so that we can fully understand what rebellion causes, so that at the point of the physical death of the body, we return with everything we need to know in what rebellion causes. This physical existence was created by God so that our spirit would not corrupt the heavenly with our rebellious ways.

To put this into perspective, is to understand that we start out in the heavenly; the spiritual existence, being an infant. We then are sent into the physical existence, of which is our growing period of childhood into adulthood. Then when this growing period ends; meaning our physical body dies, we then return to the spiritual existence to move into adulthood by what we experienced in the physical.

This understanding, is just a more detailed explanation of: our focus is not to be in an understanding of;
a physical being that has spiritual experiences, even though it can be understood in this way,

but that our focus is to be on;
a spiritual being that has physical experiences,

of which, I believe is summed up in "focus on the things above".

If we believe that this physical existence is just part of our growing process, then we should have no reason to fear the death of our physical body, of which, I believe, is a greater understanding of "love casts out fear" because since "God is Love" and He wants us to come to the knowledge of the truth, fear is cast out when we fully believe that this existence is "just a part" of our growing process in the Spirit, our growing in "The Spirit of Love".

We all live the life of Christ, starting out with being with the Father, being sent into the physical and then returning to the Father

of which, I believe is a deeper understanding of "a wheel inside a wheel" ..... understood in the concept of

"a physical life" inside of "a spiritual life"
"AND"
"a spiritual life" inside of "a physical life"

...... and understanding that both are taking place at the same time.

my  :2c:

[marie glen]

Amen! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: ....'hell' if it existed, would be of "law", not grace.. would not logically fit into a system of "grace"?

Exactly ..... which is why ... I myself ... do not believe Armageddon is or will become "hell on earth"

I believe Armageddon is something that takes place "in" us and that the giving of life puts death to death and that  :dsunny: :girlheart:"putting death to death" is Armageddon itself

my  :2c:

I would believe that if not for history, the world and also current events/history to be.. Also past prophecies have occurred, both of Messiah.. of Israel and of surrounding nations..

I see a literal "strong delusion" Paul spoke of, in latter days which would cause a "falling away" from the faith, which is occurring in western civilization once called Christendom. Jude said in latter days .. scoffers, ppl making fun of God as the Contemporary English Version puts it.

And I see a huge "earthshaking" fire which changed the fabric of modern life in 1945 (Rev.13:13 & 6:12-17). But you are not alone in not seeing these things.

[jugghead]

Amen! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: ....'hell' if it existed, would be of "law", not grace.. would not logically fit into a system of "grace"?

Exactly ..... which is why ... I myself ... do not believe Armageddon is or will become "hell on earth"

I believe Armageddon is something that takes place "in" us and that the giving of life puts death to death and that  :dsunny: :girlheart:"putting death to death" is Armageddon itself

my  :2c:

I would believe that if not for history, the world and also current events/history to be.. Also past prophecies have occurred, both of Messiah.. of Israel and of surrounding nations..

I see a literal "strong delusion" Paul spoke of, in latter days which would cause a "falling away" from the faith, which is occurring in western civilization once called Christendom. Jude said in latter days .. scoffers, ppl making fun of God as the Contemporary English Version puts it.

And I see a huge "earthshaking" fire which changed the fabric of modern life in 1945 (Rev.13:13 & 6:12-17). But you are not alone in not seeing these things.

I am not saying that it can't happen ..... I am just saying ..... I don't believe it will and that is because of things that I have come to understand and that is because God does not "instill" fear of the future ... He casts it out

[marie glen]

So much to write about and not enough time in this work existence to do it. But even that concept, in the context of time, is an example of being impatient. Why are we in such a hurry to get the news out when God isn't? We live in this physical existence and know that at some point within this existence, we will cease to be directly connected to it through the means of our physical body; in other words, we know this physical body will die.

When we come to understand things through and by His Spirit, we should no longer fear the death of this physical body. The apostle Paul tells us that in the words "to die is gain" and through the words "absent from the body, present with the Lord". To look upon mankind and see that the majority of people live in fear, the fear of not knowing what will happen once they have crossed over, is to mourn for them; to weep for them ..... of which is exactly what I believe is a deeper understanding of "Jesus wept". I believe He was weeping for those who were weeping because they did not understand the purpose of the death of the physical body.

But just as we cross over from infancy into childhood, and then from childhood into adulthood, it is this physical example of understanding that can bring peace to the mind of the one who chooses to believe that our own spiritual life, in itself, is this journey of our spirit.

What I mean by this is seeing the bigger picture of the process of growing up. We started out in the presence of our Lord as an infant, then at some point during the process of growing into maturity, we then are crossing over into childhood. The thing is with this understanding, there is no definite line as to know an exact point this takes place.

We know in this physical existence that at some point in a child's life it can start to rebel against it's parents, the first examples being, that the child does not want to do what the parent is asking. I believe it is before this point of rebellion in the heavenly; the spiritual realm, that we are then sent into a physical body so that we can fully understand what rebellion causes, so that at the point of the physical death of the body, we return with everything we need to know in what rebellion causes. This physical existence was created by God so that our spirit would not corrupt the heavenly with our rebellious ways.

To put this into perspective, is to understand that we start out in the heavenly; the spiritual existence, being an infant. We then are sent into the physical existence, of which is our growing period of childhood into adulthood. Then when this growing period ends; meaning our physical body dies, we then return to the spiritual existence to move into adulthood by what we experienced in the physical.

This understanding, is just a more detailed explanation of: our focus is not to be in an understanding of;
a physical being that has spiritual experiences, even though it can be understood in this way,

but that our focus is to be on;
a spiritual being that has physical experiences,

of which, I believe is summed up in "focus on the things above".

If we believe that this physical existence is just part of our growing process, then we should have no reason to fear the death of our physical body, of which, I believe, is a greater understanding of "love casts out fear" because since "God is Love" and He wants us to come to the knowledge of the truth, fear is cast out when we fully believe that this existence is "just a part" of our growing process in the Spirit, our growing in "The Spirit of Love".

We all live the life of Christ, starting out with being with the Father, being sent into the physical and then returning to the Father

of which, I believe is a deeper understanding of "a wheel inside a wheel" ..... understood in the concept of

"a physical life" inside of "a spiritual life"
"AND"
"a spiritual life" inside of "a physical life"

...... and understanding that both are taking place at the same time.

my  :2c:

I think when there was 'only' the spiritual  - following an order I think is in the word, when there was 'only' the father, the son, God's Spirit/Presence and then after who knows how long, the angels.. as I think there is "only one who is immortal" - I don't think there was all that much to go astray about.. (Evidence the Father's patience.. for that first rebel rumination to sprout.. and then to grow to maturity.. before creating the universe and man and woman.

Wherein in the (majestic) physical that God has formed (atoms vibrating, numbers, music, letters, colors) there is much more to go astray about.. to grasp, etc..

And so, this journey (lesson) through imperfection is unavoidable. All "in heaven and earth" must learn good from evil (which, I believe, is also life from death,imo-"lack of life" and true from not true). Also has to be learned that evil is the exact opposite of live. To wander from God, Who is Life in essence, cannot be done. For He is Perfect, and life, making imperfection the opposite of life.

I read recently the two creation accounts in Genesis 1 and 2 are - 1, the draft/frame?; and 2, the activation. This makes sense to me, and the same geneticists said God has all our original dna - which was in Adam.

I don't believe the plan/blueprint is to be only spiritual.. or to be disembodied.. but to be restored to the original blueprint.. not that this all (life as we presently know it) isn't also in His 'blueprint' as a foundation/lesson.

And I believe our 'new bodies' will be the originals that were in Adam.. and the Earth, the garden and our bodies will be as they were originally before the wayward way (which is, imo, apocalypse. The wayward way matures and is apocalypse in our modern understanding of it, of collapse and yes, ruin. The world built on sand.. But we know "all things" will be "made new" .."the heavens and earth will be dissolved, but we look for a new heavens and earth, wherein righteousness is to dwell"/rule.
  :Peace2: :cloud9:

P.S - I'm not afraid of the future and don't think we should be.. but for the folks of that day, forewarned may prevent un-necessary experience..

[marie glen]

I believe more in a combination of your view with the literal view of scripture.

The only reason I ever mention the [end' of the story the way "history" turns out, isn't because of an obsession with Armageddon or anything.. [believe me.. even tho the bk of rev says blessed are those who read and heed, most folks put their fingers in their ears and cry 'lalalalalalalalala' :laughing7: :girlheart: And figure there's something seriously wrong with whoever reads it, let alone mentions it in conversation.

But to me, in a sense, it's the whole story - simply this - there's only 2 ways - and the wayward way is to build your house on sand.

Or another way to say it is, God's way or no way, because He IS life.

Or, "the wages, result of sin is death"

And - all fiery trials and retribution is earthy consequences not an angry God breathing fire upon us.. :HeartThrob: ..especially not 'forever' or outside of time.. ..to me bible prophecy is like what God said to Adam and Eve in Eden after their error.. People read it as God pronouncing a curse.. but I just think it was logic.. for example, "man would rule over woman".. because God decreed it? Or because, logically, being bigger and stronger, and fallen/flawed/imperfect.. it was going to occur..

[jugghead]

Quote from Dandelion in the thread about the second coming:

Jesus said we will be caught off guard, and we will be living our lives when all of a sudden, the time will be here.

This is exactly what happened to me on December 12, 2005, I was working like any other day, listening to a Christian radion station, when all of a sudden something happened and I knew for a fact something was different.

For me, I do not have to believe that Christ will return again in the way most people think, for all we know, His second coming is "IN" us on an individual basis, and that the understanding that we were told of the flood to come is now to see "a people" as the flood, were not those of the teachings of Christ the first 500 years or so teaching "UR"? but then, just as the waters receded in the time of Noah, so did the understanding of "UR" ..... and now we too are part of it in that we that believe in UR are the "latter rain".

For me, I can go as far as believing that "His people" (us) are His second coming.

And of course, I already know that there is plenty to contradict this in Scripture, but I do my best to live by "the Spirit of the Word" not by "the letter of it"

my  :2c:

[jabcat]

And of course, I already know that there is plenty to contradict this in Scripture, but I do my best to live by "the Spirit of the Word" not by "the letter of it"

my  :2c:

A lot of facets to your overall statements, including interpretation, revelation, etc., so not really addressing that.  A quick thought though for possible further consideration :) ;  I personally understand per Paul's writings, the "letter" in scripture refers specifically to the Law, not whatever else is plainly written. 

[jugghead]

And of course, I already know that there is plenty to contradict this in Scripture, but I do my best to live by "the Spirit of the Word" not by "the letter of it"

my  :2c:

A lot of facets to your overall statements, including interpretation, revelation, etc., so not really addressing that.  A quick thought though for possible further consideration :) ;  I personally understand per Paul's writings, the "letter" in scripture refers specifically to the Law, not whatever else is plainly written.

No further considerations necessary, I will be saying good bye, truth has no limits - it is infinite, that was my last post

I have enjoyed my time here and have learned a lot, I love you all

Blessings to all
Rick
(a.k.a. jugghead)

[MusicLover123]

At this rate, everyone is going to be gone from this forum :/

[Patinak]

Rick, please re-consider.  You have some of the most enlightening and uplifting posts on Tentmaker.  We don't want to lose you. 
We have all lost loved ones in this life, and every time someone leaves the forum, it's like losing a family member.
Pat

[eaglesway]

IMO the difference between "the letter" and "the spirit" is about how the "logos" is perceived and applied, and can involved anything written, spoken, heard. For example, Jesus said, "If the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness".

If I have a log in my eye, I am always applying the word to others rather than myself, making the the "two edged sword" one edged, and of no effect.

Jesus said the the Pharisees, "You know neither the scriptures nor the power of God"

He did not mean they did not "know"- as in unfamiliarity. they knew all the verses. They did not understand the "intent" or "God's perspective" from His heart.
They did not properly discern His priorities. They strained at gnats as they swallowed camels.

Jesus was the word of God incarnate, yet He said, "39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."

Right there He made a distinction between se3arching the scriptures and having true "koinonea" with Him.

John said, "If you walk in the light as He is in the light you will hsve fellowship(koinonea- communion, oneness) with one another and the blood of Jesus will cleanse you from all sin.

The cleansing comes in union as we fellowship together, experiencing the "three way" relationship with God, ourselves as individuals, and our brothers and sisters.
That is the difference between the "tree of life" and the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

To some extent we all eat from both trees (should a well give forth both sweet and bitter waters?"- yet it is so, we all do). It is in the holy temple of koinonea that the light shines and divides life from death. This is why it is so important we forbear one another and labor in love to share in the "spirit"....not in the "letter".

The letter allows us to be "correct" on the surface in terms of knowledge- while being "incorrect" in terms of God's core purpose- which is that we love one another, value wisdom and humility, and lay out our interpretations as lightly as we can.

Two words the Lord gave to me in a time when I was seeking to serve Him in the mode of the men of God I respected as a young man(self assured and heavy handed) were.....

"Take one step backward"- This during a time of intense prayer as to how I should apply my self in His work.

"Take one step down"- This in a dream about seeking to preach the gospel in a town where I was having no fruit from my work.

I was walking in my own strength. (jesus to peter- "When you were young you girded yourself and went where you would...when you are old anot5her will gird you and take you where you would rather not go") I needed to take a step back, and get behind the Lord, and walk in meekness, following His lead...but it was difficult, because I was(in mixture of soul and spirit) seeking my own glory. It was years tho before I understood that first word.

I was walking in arrogance, self assured that my knowledge in the word was sufficient. I "knew more than all my teachers', but I did not yet understand the Master's ways. I needed to step down into humility, which I understood clearly inmy head from all the scriptures and from Andrew Murrays wonderful book on the subject( among others)- but I was not yet broken and could not be humble in my heart because I had not yet let myself be fully humbled.

I had the letter on humility and it was killing me because I did not have the spirit of humility- the reality of it.

It is very possible to be "in the letter" about the "salvation of all", or anything else, but fear not, little one, God is faithful. if you are in the letter, it will kill you, and in that painful but beautiful death, you will find life "in the spirit" if you are not discouraged- and press on.

There is a verse, "Fall on the rock and be broken before the rock falls on you and you are ground into powder".

I find I am always being ground into powder and sifted because i am rarely instant enough to discern and obey- but God, for some beautiful reason continues to lead me in paths of righteousness for His name sake.

When words, and the knowledge they represent, become disconnected from love, or transcend humility, they do not heal. They divide. No "koinonea", no flow of living water through the Vine, fruit from the tree of life, no leaves for the healing of the nations. We here at Tentmaker have the privilege of sharing these glorious things. I pray that we dont "miss the mark". fellowship on the internet in a forum such as this is hard because there is not time for proper discourse, for looking into eyes and hearts. Its a shame, but at present it is all we got ;o) Lets cherish it.

[jabcat]

I agree we should season everything with love, walk in the Spirit, look for better understanding - and again, always in love.  And that we should definitely not be a pharisee, walking around in pride spouting scripture just to impress or harm anyone, not attempting to live it ourselves (they of course were also, and primarily at fault, for rejecting Jesus as Messiah and thus not having their hearts changed).  I agree the letter/Spirit can have wider-spread judicious application beyond what I believe to be the very primary context of the 'letter kills but the Spirit brings life', as referencing the Law vs. living in Christ.  I also believe it's often misapplied.  I don't believe it means that I can or should use my own imagination or will  (raises hand, done it)  and ignore or reject what is clearly written, just because something else feels more right or "spiritual".  I think I know you well enough to know you also agree with that. :)  As you said, sometimes in black and white of writing, things can sound a little different than what is actually believed or meant.

The point you make I'd also recently thought,  that being "killed" is not necessarily a bad thing.  Paul talked about the Law (Letter) killing him, that he wouldn't know there was sin without it, and it was painful.  But further, he was then made alive, in the Spirit, in Christ.  He also said "the logos of God is alive and powerful, sharper than a two edged sword..separating..".  To me, we shouldn't try to live by the letter/Law, because we can't - nor should we try to live only by reading scripture without Christ, because we can't.  As Paul said, that doesn't make those things bad or wrong, it's just that we need the Spirit/Christ to be alive, and then they are a lamp unto our feet.  Tandem. 

Blessings.

[Dandelion]

I sincerely hope you don't leave, jugghead.

We are all stumbling in the dark, but yet, we are often the spark for one another, to gain a glimpse into the wonderous Light.

Let's muddle through, when we need to, yet realize what a pearl of great price we have found here. Let's have the courage, the persistence, the yearning for learning and for truth, though illusive, to keep going.....despite our feelings.

And, we can't forget that if we do anything without love, then all is lost, anyway. So, hang in for that love that exists on this site, between all of us seekers, if for nothing else. The love we have for God, for our Victorious Gospel, and for the unity....and, even the differences.....that hold us together. And, may I add, for the memory of Gary, Michelle, and those who have forged ahead of us.

D.

[marie glen]

Oh my, Dandelion, that was so beautiful! Thank you! I was so blessed reading it, and you are SO right!
:happyclap: :cloud9:


:gimpossible: JH don't go! we love ya!

P.S - after looking through all the emoji's and after posting this an image jumped to mind of the little cheerleader emoji and the phrase heck no! he won't go.. I just wanted to let everyone know I've totally lost it..
( :mlaugh: )

[jugghead]

Immediate reaction is of the flesh ... and ... repentance is of the Spirit

repentance being defined as: to think differently; to reason; reconsider

I apologize for my reaction and I can't help but speak of things that come from the very depth of my soul

and when things are not understood in the way I have seen them, it is, as if I die

when I write, which is the giving of "my word" to others ... it is as: me giving you my Christ, the Christ in me

I have become very sensitive to rejection and a lot of times it feels like my heart has been stabbed by what others say, my passion for His Word and what I have come to understand runs very deep and I do not like feeling death (although I know it is necessary at times)

I agree that the "letter" applies to the law and that it is a primary understanding, but I also see it as "a beginning" OF an understanding, not just an end.

This last week while I was driving and meditating on my daily bread, I was given an "image" of limit, what I mean by that is; to limit something is to hold it back, to place shakles upon it (the shakle was the image) and what we bind on the earth will be bound in heaven and what we loose on earth will be loosed in heaven

I do not want and can't place shakles on what has been loosed in my mind "on earth" for in doing so, it is loosed in my heart "in heaven" for where my teasure is, so is my heart.

Blessings brothers and sisters

[marie glen]

 :Peace2: :girlheart:
A thing I have to overcome is thinking if someone says such and such of the scripture is metaphor or simile, it may not mean they reject the literal occurrence, etc. For I too intensely love and am deeply attached to Jesus within, and I love the Word Which was manifest as Jesus.. firstborn, forever preeminent.. the prototype if you will..

And so I also am hoping all those who read the metaphor lesson and learning/insight, do not consider the literal to be cancelled. I mean metaphor comes from literal, doesn’t it? So to me all metaphor should tie back to - the news of the Kingdom coming, which Jesus preached, and the news of Christ Crucified, which Paul was so grace-fully taught and was inspired to teach, spread and write.

I have to guard against assuming a metaphor application means the straight out, what Jesus said, etc, is being rejected. I believe in the spiritual message of things.. absolutely, but also the literal. I don’t think they have to be always exclusive of one another.
God bless you brother! :gsmile:

[MusicLover123]

:Peace2: :girlheart:
A thing I have to overcome is thinking if someone says such and such of the scripture is metaphor or simile, it may not mean they reject the literal occurrence, etc. For I too intensely love and am deeply attached to Jesus within, and I love the Word Which was manifest as Jesus.. firstborn, forever preeminent.. the prototype if you will..

And so I also am hoping all those who read the metaphor lesson and learning/insight, do not consider the literal to be cancelled. I mean metaphor comes from literal, doesn't it? So to me all metaphor should tie back to - the news of the Kingdom coming, which Jesus preached, and the news of Christ Crucified, which Paul was so grace-fully taught and was inspired to teach, spread and write.

I have to guard against assuming a metaphor application means the straight out, what Jesus said, etc, is being rejected. I believe in the spiritual message of things.. absolutely, but also the literal. I don't think they have to be always exclusive of one another.
God bless you brother! :gsmile:

It seems, to me at least, especially on these boards, the most "Spiritual interpretation" is to apply everything to yourself. I'm not too sure how I feel about that. If you suggest any of it having real world significance, well nope! The supposed "correct way" cannot be applying in any "literal" significance.

Welcome back Rick! Hope you enjoyed your short vacation.

[Dandelion]

So, does that mean we can say, Welcome Back, jugghead?

I do hope so!

D.

[jugghead]

The forgiveness of sins is the life hidden within the hardness of the shell of the condemnation for sin, not until the shell is broken and falls away can the life within begin to grow

[marie glen]

:Peace2: :girlheart:
A thing I have to overcome is thinking if someone says such and such of the scripture is metaphor or simile, it may not mean they reject the literal occurrence, etc. For I too intensely love and am deeply attached to Jesus within, and I love the Word Which was manifest as Jesus.. firstborn, forever preeminent.. the prototype if you will..

And so I also am hoping all those who read the metaphor lesson and learning/insight, do not consider the literal to be cancelled. I mean metaphor comes from literal, doesn't it? So to me all metaphor should tie back to - the news of the Kingdom coming, which Jesus preached, and the news of Christ Crucified, which Paul was so grace-fully taught and was inspired to teach, spread and write.

I have to guard against assuming a metaphor application means the straight out, what Jesus said, etc, is being rejected. I believe in the spiritual message of things.. absolutely, but also the literal. I don't think they have to be always exclusive of one another.
God bless you brother! :gsmile:

It seems, to me at least, especially on these boards, the most "Spiritual interpretation" is to apply everything to yourself. I'm not too sure how I feel about that. If you suggest any of it having real world significance, well nope! The supposed "correct way" cannot be applying in any "literal" significance.

Welcome back Rick! Hope you enjoyed your short vacation.

:faint: I have thought that before, that metaphor is the angle of it's all about me.. But I'm learning that of course also the application is concerning all. But it's one reason I believe there is value in both, the literal and the spiritual. But we humans are prone to either, or thinking.. rather than "and".

For example, even with the overall drama / history of this wayward path /wrong way, which is life lived not in conscious (happy) union with Him, believing it can only crash n burn.. (apocalypse) I believe this to be true both collectively and also individually (each sinner's life, ultimately). The world being the literal, and the individual (spiritual) being the not as literal.. or that is literal but in a different way.. since everybody's crashing n burning is in different degrees.. Of course apocalypse itself is told via symbols and metaphor, lol.

Is literal and spiritual the same as what I think of as collective and individual? Concerning the Bible as truth, that is..
:Peace2:

And perhaps it's also a case of it being the difference in the body of Christ.. "the ear cannot say to the eye I have no need of you".. But we humans kind of do.. maybe because in so much discussion, the idea and attitude is debate.. So it's easy to read someone actually saying "and" as saying "or". Lol, sometimes that is..

[marie glen]

The forgiveness of sins is the life hidden within the hardness of the shell of the condemnation for sin, not until the shell is broken and falls away can the life within begin to grow

:thumbsup:  :Chinscratch: I believe I have mentioned to you before that I think you have the heart of a poet.. :thumbsup:

[MusicLover123]

Fear of God is the beginning of fear and judgment. Love of God is the completion of triumph and peace.