Tidbits of Jugghead

[jugghead]

The forgiveness of sins is the life hidden within the hardness of the shell of the condemnation for sin, not until the shell is broken and falls away can the life within begin to grow

:thumbsup:  :Chinscratch: I believe I have mentioned to you before that I think you have the heart of a poet.. :thumbsup:

Thank you MG and I believe it is His heart that the words come from

[eaglesway]

 lts important to recognize the limits of this medium. It is by its very nature "limited". We cannot look one another in the eye and have free flowing discourse, "midrash", that sifting that can happen in a few minutes of discussion in person, here- takes much more effort to discern, and at any measure, is limited. Because the veracity of scripture has always been challenged here on the site, one thing I know is that whenever we see posts that indicate that the scriptures may be in error- we will ask for clarification, and test the words- not to be legalistic, but to reach the true intent of the writer.

Everyone pretty much says what they think is true. I dont think many people are deliberately deceptive, yet- there is often disagreement and that disagreement can have a wide range of measure, from minor to major. No ones words are free from testing, ever, anywhere in this whole universe, and the depths are revealed through the fire of discourse- but only when the participants are patient and humble towards one another. Otherwise there is only strife and confusion and self indulgence. The only way to avoid testing is isolation, which can be a form of self-indulgence as well.

The inspiration and veracity of the scriptures is a foundation of the site. Wrong understandings of scripture can be tested and revealed by other scriptures and discerning priorities of scriptures.

For instance. One person hinges their paradigm on scriptures about judgment. Another on scriptures about mercy. The balance is revealed in a verse like "mercy triumphs over judgement". Neither "side" may throw away any scripture. Both "sides" are required to consider all that is presented, and truly the only resolution is if both "sides" realize there are no sides but rather a humble seeking of truth, togethr, because we are far from the reality of the glory of God, and that glory can only be achieved through union and communion. When position is more important than communion, then there is deception, and thats is why we, as moderators, agonize over these things.

One thing I never agonize over, however, is whether the scriptures are sufficient to reveal all that we need to know in terms of written revelation, and sufficient to test any revelation that is written by anyone.

[jugghead]

If I don't learn from my mistakes, I am apt to repeat them

of which I know everyone here already understands that

and if I do not become a more loving person, a more forgiving person, a more compassionate person, than I was yesterday, then I need to repeat yesterday today in order to change tomorrow

[marie glen]

lts important to recognize the limits of this medium. It is by its very nature "limited". We cannot look one another in the eye and have free flowing discourse, "midrash", that sifting that can happen in a few minutes of discussion in person, here- takes much more effort to discern, and at any measure, is limited. Because the veracity of scripture has always been challenged here on the site, one thing I know is that whenever we see posts that indicate that the scriptures may be in error- we will ask for clarification, and test the words- not to be legalistic, but to reach the true intent of the writer.

Everyone pretty much says what they think is true. I dont think many people are deliberately deceptive, yet- there is often disagreement and that disagreement can have a wide range of measure, from minor to major. No ones words are free from testing, ever, anywhere in this whole universe, and the depths are revealed through the fire of discourse- but only when the participants are patient and humble towards one another. Otherwise there is only strife and confusion and self indulgence. The only way to avoid testing is isolation, which can be a form of self-indulgence as well.

The inspiration and veracity of the scriptures is a foundation of the site. Wrong understandings of scripture can be tested and revealed by other scriptures and discerning priorities of scriptures.

For instance. One person hinges their paradigm on scriptures about judgment. Another on scriptures about mercy. The balance is revealed in a verse like "mercy triumphs over judgement". Neither "side" may throw away any scripture. Both "sides" are required to consider all that is presented, and truly the only resolution is if both "sides" realize there are no sides but rather a humble seeking of truth, togethr, because we are far from the reality of the glory of God, and that glory can only be achieved through union and communion. When position is more important than communion, then there is deception, and thats is why we, as moderators, agonize over these things.

One thing I never agonize over, however, is whether the scriptures are sufficient to reveal all that we need to know in terms of written revelation, and sufficient to test any revelation that is written by anyone.

:clapping: I SO agree with that..


Also.. when I read "mercy triumphs over judgement" this time, it 'bout slapped me in the face! About other threads of discussion, if mercy trumps judgment, why would there be punishment? {my thinking is; Why would those - chosen - to be saved after death and resurrection, experience any more torment at conversion/faith (believing!) than any of us - chosen - drawn, turned, during this lifetime. Since we know it is a work that He alone does. Which I am thoroughly convinced of, because, otherwise it is like wages.. as if God owes.

Which of course, is an impossibility.

P.S. Oh yes.. there are many forums we can go to, and every one.. well maybe not "every one", but most only talk.. no listening, no actual reading.. I mean you can really polish up your message.. Repetition is good in study! :laughing7:

[jugghead]

lts important to recognize the limits of this medium. It is by its very nature "limited". We cannot look one another in the eye and have free flowing discourse, "midrash", that sifting that can happen in a few minutes of discussion in person, here- takes much more effort to discern, and at any measure, is limited. Because the veracity of scripture has always been challenged here on the site, one thing I know is that whenever we see posts that indicate that the scriptures may be in error- we will ask for clarification, and test the words- not to be legalistic, but to reach the true intent of the writer.

Everyone pretty much says what they think is true. I dont think many people are deliberately deceptive, yet- there is often disagreement and that disagreement can have a wide range of measure, from minor to major. No ones words are free from testing, ever, anywhere in this whole universe, and the depths are revealed through the fire of discourse- but only when the participants are patient and humble towards one another. Otherwise there is only strife and confusion and self indulgence. The only way to avoid testing is isolation, which can be a form of self-indulgence as well.

The inspiration and veracity of the scriptures is a foundation of the site. Wrong understandings of scripture can be tested and revealed by other scriptures and discerning priorities of scriptures.

For instance. One person hinges their paradigm on scriptures about judgment. Another on scriptures about mercy. The balance is revealed in a verse like "mercy triumphs over judgement". Neither "side" may throw away any scripture. Both "sides" are required to consider all that is presented, and truly the only resolution is if both "sides" realize there are no sides but rather a humble seeking of truth, togethr, because we are far from the reality of the glory of God, and that glory can only be achieved through union and communion. When position is more important than communion, then there is deception, and thats is why we, as moderators, agonize over these things.

One thing I never agonize over, however, is whether the scriptures are sufficient to reveal all that we need to know in terms of written revelation, and sufficient to test any revelation that is written by anyone.

I apologize for my mishandling of words

[eaglesway]

No apologies necessary, jus kind of an explanation. Would hate to lose you as a member. You have so many edifying things to say. :o)

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :iagree: :girlheart:

[jugghead]

No apologies necessary, jus kind of an explanation. Would hate to lose you as a member. You have so many edifying things to say. :o)

Not sure what you want me to explain

[jugghead]

"Revelation" is an experience, but to "experience" a revelation brings life.

Revelation: defined as; the revealing of truth, so, to expand on the opening statement is to also understand this statement in these words:

"The revealing of truth" is an experience, but to "experience" the revealing of truth brings life.

Anyone can be told that "the revealing of truth" is an experience, and they can believe this to be true, but to actually experience "the revealing of truth" goes beyond just believing it is true, it becomes "knowing" it is true.

And since Christ Himself said; "I am the truth", we can come to understand that there is a difference between "believing" truth and "knowing" truth, for it is no different than saying, "believing" Christ and "knowing" Christ and by seeing this difference, we now know:

We need to "believe" before we "know" and that pertains to: not just believing "in" Him, but believing what He says, and that "in" itself is: "the knowing" that He is the physical manifestation of what He says and that because "The Word became flesh".

Just some "loose" "change" in my pocket

[jugghead]

After our physical death, when our spirit returns to that from which it came --- the life we lived in the flesh will be used by God as a tool to show us spiritual truth --- for God commanded light to shine out of darkness

[marie glen]

I believe this to be true also collectively. That "the judgment" what we call Judgment 'Day' will be an examining of all history upon Earth. And what potential as learning experience!! (As well as - the personal judging/examination and if we judge ourselves now, our position upon that day will be more as 'judge'/discerner than judged.. as I believe prophecy indicates two ages after this one and before the all in all occurrence of Rev.21:1-5. (Note:later verses in 22 about "outside is the darkness and sinners," etc. to be a speaking OUTSIDE the vision/rev.narrative. And does NOT refer to the state of things after Yahweh is "all in all" afterall when He is "all in all" how can there be "outer darkness" and sinning? No logic there..!

It's like ps.22:27 - the logical question is when? When will all remember and turn to the LORD. And when will ALL families of the nations worship before Him?? Especially in view of such verses as "can anyone praise You from the grave?"

[sheila]

 :2c:when therisen ones observemen still on earth being'caught inthe act" inallvariablesof'sin' what canthey say but..Truly God hasbound

up all men in sin and disobedience?and just as all have bore the image of thecorrupt,so,too,shall we all bear the image of the incorrupt.

what we need to learn from the TOKOGAE is that there is a little serpent in it..and that a little evil spoils much good.

[jugghead]

I believe this to be true also collectively. That "the judgment" what we call Judgment 'Day' will be an examining of all history upon Earth. And what potential as learning experience!! (As well as - the personal judging/examination and if we judge ourselves now, our position upon that day will be more as 'judge'/discerner than judged.. as I believe prophecy indicates two ages after this one and before the all in all occurrence of Rev.21:1-5. (Note:later verses in 22 about "outside is the darkness and sinners," etc. to be a speaking OUTSIDE the vision/rev.narrative. And does NOT refer to the state of things after Yahweh is "all in all" afterall when He is "all in all" how can there be "outer darkness" and sinning? No logic there..!

It's like ps.22:27 - the logical question is when? When will all remember and turn to the LORD. And when will ALL families of the nations worship before Him?? Especially in view of such verses as "can anyone praise You from the grave?"

if I am wrong, please correct me, but, according to what you wrote, you believe you will be in a higher position of judging than others?

IMO, who am I to have a higher position if we all were subjected to disobedience?

[MusicLover123]

IMO, who am I to have a higher position if we all were subjected to disobedience?

Because it is a gift from God, not of your own selves, lest ye should boast.

1 Corinthians 6
2Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

Obadiah 1
21And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord's.

Romans 2
16This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Proverbs 27
5Better is open rebuke than hidden love.

[sheila]

God alone will be exalted inthat day..and every hidden thing will be revealed...and those that judge by the appearance of the flesh...

and the  motives of their hearts will also be revealed.

   Isaaih 40;4 and Luke 3;5...every valley shall be raisedup...every mountain[saviours/salvationisof thejews] and hill[hills skip like Lambs

  of Christ] shall be made low.  The rough ground shall become level,the rugged places a plain...AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD WILL BE

REVEALED..AND ALL MANKIND TOGATHER WILL SEE IT... no jews boasting..no Christian churches..

   The Kingdom of heaven is like..a woman that hid leavening in 3measures of flour..until all was leavened.

we may apply this truth toboth..the leavening of sin that overcome the jews and Christian churches[dragon overcome saints/look

like Lambs but speak like dragon/accuser of the brethren] and God's mercy unto all.mercy unto all being God's leavening that makes

all men rise.

Judge this[or discern for yourself]is it lawful to kill or to heal on the Sabbath?

  butIknow  my sister Marie's heart..that the loveof God and her fellow man is there.

   
Le vel playing fields...a true balance on the scales of justice of God. Luke 3;5 and ALLMANKINDWILLSEE GOD'S SALVATION.


ALL is fair in LOVE and War with the dragon...sinentered andbrought death unto allmen..so too,shall the man who has life in himself

[Jesus Christ] enter in and bring eternal llife unto all men....Greater is He that is in you..than he that is in the world.

[marie glen]

I believe this to be true also collectively. That "the judgment" what we call Judgment 'Day' will be an examining of all history upon Earth. And what potential as learning experience!! (As well as - the personal judging/examination and if we judge ourselves now, our position upon that day will be more as 'judge'/discerner than judged.. as I believe prophecy indicates two ages after this one and before the all in all occurrence of Rev.21:1-5. (Note:later verses in 22 about "outside is the darkness and sinners," etc. to be a speaking OUTSIDE the vision/rev.narrative. And does NOT refer to the state of things after Yahweh is "all in all" afterall when He is "all in all" how can there be "outer darkness" and sinning? No logic there..!

It's like ps.22:27 - the logical question is when? When will all remember and turn to the LORD. And when will ALL families of the nations worship before Him?? Especially in view of such verses as "can anyone praise You from the grave?"

if I am wrong, please correct me, but, according to what you wrote, you believe you will be in a higher position of judging than others?

IMO, who am I to have a higher position if we all were subjected to disobedience?

Nope.. I've mentioned before, also, I don't believe there will be classes.. i'm talking about judging history, not people.. as in all of us discerning, but the 'elect' will serve,imo, during the millennium and an age following called the judgment. Or rather we will learn and serve.. take a thousand years to learn what we need to know and understand in order to serve in the following age ministering to folks from all walks and all times of world history.

I believe in a literal resurrection from the dead of allthose not yet saved, which occurs, according to Rev.20, "after the thousand years". And I have to think that will be many people and much ministering as Jesus continues the work of drawing all to Him. Not done ina moment ay more than the drawing of all those during their brief lifetime - those who rise at Jesus' return. Now I do believe resurrection also is spiritual when we are born again, but, to me, that doesn't make literal ages described in Rev and the prophets to be any less literal.

I also believe world affairs are also a part of 'judgment' and a part of history.. such as 70 A.D. as judgment/results.. And if we will judge our selves, then judgments upon the world we may perhaps be spared from., I believe the same of those who rise to the judgment - Jesus said some rise in a resurrection of life and some to aresurrectionof judgment— only because a(truth proving) drama needs more than one character. And we chosen are chosen because we are he weak and foolish if the earth.. And on judgment day I believe individual or personal judgment occurs within. And what all will be judging/discerning is history and it's lesson of what is good from evil, which I believe also life from defeats. Two roads. Life. Or lack of life (thanatos/lack of life/God) making the wRong roadimpossible. Allmust live in union withGod/Lifeand this ax wd lnow, is through Jesus. [Note: the Gnostics believed God's Words to be all only spiritual.. hidden mysteries for those who know- are, we're of higher class for they understood (lnow/gnosis) revealed to each one individually, not so much via the Word as we around here, but by special hidden knowing (gnosis). Certain deeds proceeded out of this as they denied Jesus came in the flesh, the flesh being to them, not the carnal character, but matter, and since the body was evil whatever was done in it didn't matter. Another deed of these special 'saved by their knowledge' believers became the higher strata.. which is what he Word nicolaitans means.. above and over the laity/common believers. This thing— or that is, these deeds and doctrine Jesus said He "hates". According to the letters to the churches of Ephesus and Pergamon.. Ephesis commended for their resisting such doctrine and belief but Pergamon scolded for not..

"Over the laity" - Jesus "hates"? also the doctrine of gnosis/special knowlege saves?

[jugghead]

IMO, the ability to judge is what got man in trouble in the first place,

Eve judged the tree as good for food, she judged the tree pleasant to the eyes, she judged the tree would make them wise

and it was because of these judgments "before" they ate that caused them "to" eat and the result of that judgement to eat was to judge themselves, which I believe is why they hid from God when they heard Him in the garden because they feared God would punish them and that because they knew nothing about how God would fix the problem of death that He knew in advance would happen by covering them with skins rather than leaves, which is a picture of life for life, a life of His righteousness for the life of man's righteousness.

The ability to judge can be both a curse and a blessing

again, this is just my opinion

[MusicLover123]

Jugghead, what is your definition of judgment?

I think of it as chastiment and discernment. The problem IMO is not the correction itself but the fear of it. They hid because they feared that.

1 John 4
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

They lusted after the tree, they lusted for wisdom and food, that was their first sin I think.

[marie glen]

IMO, the ability to judge is what got man in trouble in the first place,

Eve judged the tree as good for food, she judged the tree pleasant to the eyes, she judged the tree would make them wise

and it was because of these judgments "before" they ate that caused them "to" eat and the result of that judgement to eat was to judge themselves, which I believe is why they hid furom God when they heard Him in the garden because they feared God would punish them and that because they knew nothing about how God would fix the problem of death that He knew in advance would happen by covering them with skins rather than leaves, which is a picture of life for life, a life of His righteousness for the life of man's righteousness.

The ability to judge can be both a curse and a blessing

again, this is just my opinion

AMEN!
It's what I think of as a real Pandora's box.. this ability to perceive and make a judgment.. decision, choice, or that is, in its most original, the ability to think, ponder, weigh, judge (as in discern).

But the one forbidden tree was judged or discerned by Eve to be good, when God's words were it wasn't good. (But all the other trees were.) So her Judgment (discernment) was inaccurate. Why? It seems to be two reasons, to me, by reading the account, that it was the deception which began it. If the serpent (and there's a serpent in Rev.12, showing (me) it was more than the animal serpent at work and animals were not given the ability of such reasoning, full blown reasoning judgment/ability).

Which suggests to me what is elsewhere referred to as (rebel) winds or breaths ("messengers") of Fire/breath.. (Spirit). And in order to do so that they too had ability to think, judge (reason, weigh and balance - she saw the fruit was attractive and edible - trusting other words than God's and other interpretation of God's Words..

:Chinscratch: So logically, it seems to me, Adam and Eve were created at such a time that the 'serpents' Judgment had become perverse, changed, rebel, no longer a perfect creation of God.

Or the serpent was a type of programmed/robotic creature God created onLy to deceive and wreak havoc.. It would do so with no judgment/thought/scheming.. :dontknow: that just seems logical to me.. that the serpent was cunning and had planned and plotted.

I guess that much is a question of logic, to me, anyway, about the Word, that is). Did God created the adversary as corrupt, deceitful, fallen and seditious/tricky? Or what did Jesus mean when He said He saw the adversary fall like lightning? The original Greek translated fall, would help clarify I think.

So we are in agreement on this - the ability to discern, have Judgment about things is indeed a real problem and maker of trouble. Indeed, isn't the deepest depths of oppression, wars, even the very worst of the worst possible? Making judgment (ability) to be a BIG problem.

Would be better we couldn't make judgments about things of life. But what would we be then, do you think? Is it a friend or companion if they are unable to think and rationalize. Would it be better to never create any sort of rational, able to make judgments, creatures?

It's my theory He, in His great wisdom (and ability!) created man and woman and the universe at the penultimate time.. which caused all rational creatures to take part in this learning to rightly discern (good from evil /life from death, what I think of as nonlife or lacking life - an opposite to life like evil is opposite to good).

How wise! (Imo) How POWERFUL.. That He can arrange and engineer things so all take this (unavoidable?) journey/travail/lesson (foundation lesson?) All together at once.  :Chinscratch: What would another way of doing it look like? All take the journey at individual times? Or place? But God, it seems to me is very orderly. Jesus said have the ppl sit in 50's or a hundred.. I'll break the bread, you pass it out. (That's our job! :) Pass it out, plain, simple, easy to digest bread of life (truth). [Oh how the Gnostics had it wrong.. everything a "mystery" a code fit only for the wisest, so called elite.. and the rest? Just cattle? And being wonderful understanders of hidden mysteries was what they thought saved them, which turned out just the opposite, their faulty judgment led them way astray til Jesus said Nico-laity-ism (elitism?) was a thing He hated. Other verses show us it led them into gross error! And He hated their deeds! So wise and more perceptive than others they were! not!)

Those first words..which led astray., and still having such a loud echo "hast God said..?" / "really said?" Surely the serpent and others can improve upon what God has said.. ( :faint: )

In another thread recently was a question about Isaiah's prophecy "they shall look upon the dead bodies and be abhorred" - the smoke of the destructive way, the anti life way.. and be (forever/age to age) abhorred! With the end result of it.

If we never saw the end result of it, how would we be totally convinced, so we know good from evil accurately? The wages of sin accurately? That it is NOT pleasing to the eyes or pleasing in any way.. for it is a bottomless pit of potential.. for the carnal self serving way includes the possibility of great oppressions, wars large and small.  Even(obviously) genocides.. the sex slave trade.. abortion, judgment in the other sense of the word, as consequences.. well, He has said all blood spilled of innocent shall be required. The simile being blood calls out to God from the earth, Abel's blood, the 'martyrs under the altar' which more shall join (the trying of ET?)

But I've gone way afield.. :laughing7: But Truth is all connected. A simple truth really, that all can - ultimately - understand and digest. (Except the adversary&co, is always working very hard to confuse and cover. But I guess that's part and parcel of the wrong road - as opposed to the one of "life" - carnal self seeking or flirting-(typo, no idea what I meant to write  :laughing7: ) can include all manner of possibility, including abuse and oppression.

BUT, if the whole road (of error/disobedience/death) must be allowed to fully unwind and be seen.. or forever would be the question "has God really said..? Because truth vs untrue and error, would never really be exposed. We have to see the end, the results.. otherwise always a question..? And so the smoke of the worthless way shall always/age to age, rise (in the memory and understanding of all).. the dead bodies of war, etc. being forever a deep, very deep abhorrence to "all in heaven and earth".

This learning to understand/discern/judge good from evil is how (imo) God is writing/engraving His Law (of love, and serving love NOT self, aka, the carnal way; but writing forever His law summed up in "love" upon and into every heart and mind (psyche). Which is the only way God can/will be all in all..?

[jugghead]

Jugghead, what is your definition of judgment?

I think of it as chastiment and discernment. The problem IMO is not the correction itself but the fear of it. They hid because they feared that.

1 John 4
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

They lusted after the tree, they lusted for wisdom and food, that was their first sin I think.

Yes Connor, what you said is exactly what I believe, it is the words we use in explaining something that makes the difference. I can rewrite my whole post ---- and by that, someone is more apt to listen because of the way it is said, my post rewritten:

IMO, the ability to discern is what got man in trouble in the first place,

Eve discerned the tree as good for food, she saw the tree pleasant to the eyes, she discerned the tree would make them wise

and it was because of these discernments "before" they ate that caused them "to" eat and the result of that discernment to eat was to discern and see themselves, which I believe is why they hid from God when they heard Him in the garden because they feared God would correct them and that because they knew nothing about how God would correct the problem of death that He knew in advance would happen by covering them with skins rather than leaves, which is a picture of life for life, a life of His discernments for the life of man's judgments.

The ability to discern can be both a curse (judgment/discernment/correction against) and a blessing (judgment/discernment/correction for)

again, this is just my opinion

It comes down to listening to His Spirit in ourselves, of which we can better understand "the letter of the law" and what I mean by that is: if we are not willing to dig into what the writer is trying to say, the better understanding is lost. The word "judgment" itself can be defined as many things: discernment, a choice, a decision, a verdict, a conclusion etc., "the letter of the law" is to not completely understand how the word is being used, but to know the heart of the author, and by knowing the heart of the author there should be no misunderstandings.

If we don't know the heart of God (which is Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior) the author of our salvation ---- in short, if we do not know the author (the Father) and His heart (the Word), there is no way we can understand what God means when it is filtered through a limited understanding of what is written.

Blessings

[jugghead]

Excellent post Marie  :iagree: :dsunny:

and wanted to add --- especially your opening statement:

It's what I think of as a real Pandora's box.. this ability to perceive and make a judgment.. decision, choice, or that is, in its most original, the ability to think, ponder, weigh, judge (as in discern).

[marie glen]

Excellent post Marie  :iagree: :dsunny:

and wanted to add --- especially your opening statement:

It's what I think of as a real Pandora's box.. this ability to perceive and make a judgment.. decision, choice, or that is, in its most original, the ability to think, ponder, weigh, judge (as in discern).

Thanks! ...thinking of that.. what would be His other option? Or another option. Maybe there's more than one other option? :dontknow:

[jugghead]

Excellent post Marie  :iagree: :dsunny:

and wanted to add --- especially your opening statement:

It's what I think of as a real Pandora's box.. this ability to perceive and make a judgment.. decision, choice, or that is, in its most original, the ability to think, ponder, weigh, judge (as in discern).

Thanks! ...thinking of that.. what would be His other option? Or another option. Maybe there's more than one other option? :dontknow:

I would like to reply to this, but so that there are no misunderstandings, I would like to know what specific option(s) are you speaking of?

[marie glen]

Excellent post Marie  :iagree: :dsunny:

and wanted to add --- especially your opening statement:

It’s what I think of as a real Pandora’s box.. this ability to perceive and make a judgment.. decision, choice, or that is, in its most original, the ability to think, ponder, weigh, judge (as in discern).

Thanks! ...thinking of that.. what would be His other option? Or another option. Maybe there’s more than one other option? :dontknow:

I would like to reply to this, but so that there are no misunderstandings, I would like to know what specific option(s) are you speaking of?

Never creating rational creatures.. or sticking with merely very young, extremely young rational beings who cannot really make any sort of choice.. Or create all as fully programmed with no ability to think outside of the parameters God sets. But I think that is what He IS doing through this travail of learning good from evil.. Or we could be attached to spiritual strings that God forever Himself (only) pulls..

But it's my thinking that He is creating - replicating, if you will, the Son, He being the original replication of God.. the only straight out from Him one, within whom the rest of us shall all live..

There's the imaginary world of 'the gods' where all were human like.. made war, cheated, murdered one another, etc.. Or a universe made up of those and only of those (ultimately) who share God's character. This, to me, will seal the state of perfection of what He is creating, and, allow for fully rational created beings. Which I assume we all more or less believe, but differ some on how He is doing it.

[MusicLover123]

Here's an interesting thing to consider: what if all the "gods" (like Greek gods and eastern religions, etc.) Are actually fallen Angels? I heard someone say that they depicted what they saw.

Here are some things I think of for choices.

We have physical and Spiritual. Was anything other than that possible?
Make us perfect in the first place and not go through this life?
God not being hidden to most ar this time?(in terms of seeing Him)