Why are we so frowned upon?

[micah7:9]

They won't get in line and straighten up without that threat, but they might fall in love with the beauty of God when they see what Jesus really did. Then you won't have to beat them into line all the time :o)

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
(Isa 28:13)

That line ain't really the greatest place to be :o)

[thinktank]

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

I think the problem is that we either try and remove this fear and thus allow the wicked to rule over us and despise us, when we are the ones who have the authority and they should fear our God.

Or we shove man made fear such as gossip, shame, slander or demonic fear on the wicked to fear us, instead of the fear of the magnificent king Holy righteous God. For it is a fearfull thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[Jeremias]

Why do I feel condemned from my fellow Christians?! it makes my heart heavy.

Hey misszoo.

I recently ran a tiny little social experiment you might find interesting.  The final conclusion I came to I think has much relevance to your question quoted above.

I went to a college bowl game a week or so ago.  60,000 in attendance.

During the pre-game festivites (aka tailgating), I impulsively and on a whim decided to start asking random people who looked approachable "a quick question about God".  Generally, these were fast 1-2 minute conversations with people walking by our area.  After they gave their answer, I did not seek to continue the conversation.  I simply said, "Ok.  Thanks for your answer.  Enjoy the game!"

QUESTION:
Would you have a more favorable view of God if He was capable of saving the entire human race, all people, and that He has succeeded in this endeavor to save everyone, and one way or another, everyone eventually makes it to heaven?


4 no
2 would give me a less favorable view of God.
1 on the fence yes... This person initially said Yes.  Then, after his friends answered No, he said it was a complicated question that couldn't be answered in Yes or No because a simple Yes would mean Hell did not exist. 
1 emphatic "Yes, of course!  Wouldn't this give everyone a more favorable view of God?"

The 1 emphatic yes was a homeless man.

This was by no means "scientific".  The 7/8 people I asked this question to were white males from 28-40.  They were probably sports enthusiasts.  So this was not any kind of representative sample of everyone.

I wasn't sure what to expect.  I was surprised by the majority of negative responses.  But, (and here's the kicker) I was surprised by the coldness of the responses... what I perceived to be the scowl or apparent "dis-taste" of the possibility... ie the "hardness of heart".  The exception being the homeless man.  If I may combine my "sixth-sense" perception with a bit of speculation, I felt like most (5-6/8) of the people I asked sort of puffed up their chest, thought about some bad people they knew of (Hitler, NJ school shooter etc), and said to themselves... "no, there are some really bad people in the world.  I'm not as bad as them so I know I'm ok, but those bad people really need to suffer and if God doesn't get them then God isn't fair and I don't like Him." OR... "I'm really trying to be a good guy and it's really hard sometimes.  If those bad people I know get a free pass, then God isn't fair and I won't like that."

If I may stretch the speculation even further... Now, I realize the negativity could simply be coming from the fact that I was "interrupting people" at an otherwise pleasant party atmosphere with a serious question and so they subconsciously voiced their displeasure in the negative.  It could also be that the people I asked, 8 white males, 3-4 of them fairly athletically in-shape "work out" guys... are sort of the "top of the food chain" aspiring alpha males of American culture... really buying into the "rat race" and striving as hard as they can to "be good", and "make it" the way success is defined in America.  So the idea that some who don't work hard to "make it", get bliss just like they would, was disgusting to them.

This also hit me like a ton of bricks... People are never willing to give others a "free pass" and "let them off the hook" until they realize and bask in the joy of knowing they themselves have been given a "free pass" and have been "let off the hook".

[ded2daworld]

So right Jeremias :thumbsup:

[misszoolander]

So true! :Peace2:

Every traditional Christian I talk to about this usually has this wall of defense. They cling to their eternal torment doctrine as if it's in fact the belief in eternal hell that saves them, not Jesus.

It AMAZES me when our fellow Christians say "Oh you don't believe in hell? Well you sure are going to find out about it!" Really?

Who's playing God here? Does those words come out of a heart of love, or a heart of pride?

Doctrine does not save, Jesus saves.

I wonder who Jesus was really talking to when he said this "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean." Matthew 23:27

Who are the Pharisees of today? Who preach in big extravagant churches, but they preach a message of death and despair? 

[ded2daworld]

Right missZ.
you said, "Doctrine does not save, Jesus saves."
Brad took me over to an ET christian website and they were arguing about whether
a person could still get to heaven if they had an opportunity to be baptized but didn't.
The topic was "Does Baptism save?"
My answer was ialmost identical to yours
"Baptism doesn't save, God does."
Of course, it was ignored.

[Lazarus Short]

Right missZ.
you said, "Doctrine does not save, Jesus saves."
Brad took me over to an ET christian website and they were arguing about whether
a person could still get to heaven if they had an opportunity to be baptized but didn't.
The topic was "Does Baptism save?"
My answer was ialmost identical to yours
"Baptism doesn't save, God does."
Of course, it was ignored.

Of course you were ignored, for these people have a spirit of religion,  :punish:  while you are a follower of the Christ.  :cloud9:

You know, I feel sorry for the guy in the smilie, getting harangued and whacked in the back of the head until the end of time...kind of like hell.

[eaglesway]

Right missZ.
you said, "Doctrine does not save, Jesus saves."
Brad took me over to an ET christian website and they were arguing about whether
a person could still get to heaven if they had an opportunity to be baptized but didn't.
The topic was "Does Baptism save?"
My answer was ialmost identical to yours
"Baptism doesn't save, God does."
Of course, it was ignored.

The balance is this. Baptism saves- but it has nothing to do with heaven, it was never about "heaven or hell" theology because there was no such thing in those days. It saves, as Peter said, "By the answer of a clear conscience" or as Paul said, "By faith in the operation of God". Baptism is simply one saving, healing, delivering step of may progressive saving healing steps laid out for the children of God as they are transformed into His image. This is the real problem, >>>The fundamental paradigm of ET theology infects every question of doctrine regarding salvation- but salvation is about deliverance from death and beig transformed into the image of Christ- there are may aspects to it, as we are healed from the consequences of sin and sanctified by the Spirit and grace takes us INTO THE NEW CREATION.

[ded2daworld]

I'm assuming the post was your opinion EW.
IMO, Doesn't it boil down to whether one can have the spirit of God living in Him and
be in a relationship with the living God without being baptized?
I believe Baptism does not save but is symbolic of being saved. "Buried" under the waters (as was Jonah in the big fish and as Jesus in the grave) then, rising up out of the waters (as Jonah was "spewed out" and as Jesus came up ouit of the grave)
All those that die before "being saved" will be reconciled and this will not entail baptism.
Just like the rituals of the Jews prior to Jesus, this is, as Paul said, a shadow of what is to come.
That being said, I believe every believer should have the experience of Baptism and do it also because Jesus did it (and he didn't need it either) and He is our example.

[micah7:9]

Hey Ded, why didn't Jesus baptize anyone? The way I understand it John's ministry water baptizing Luk 3:16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but there cometh he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
(and Acts 19:3) John's baptism
1Co 10:2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Did Paul drop the ball?  1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Just curious. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Paul was speaking of function, not of the efficacy of baptism :o)

Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
(Act 19:4-6)

[ded2daworld]

IMO. Jesus didn't water baptize anyone because of pride - not his pride, but everyone else's.
"Oh yeah! Who baptized you?? I was Baptized by Jesus himself na-na-na-nana"
I think the same is true to a lesser effect with Paul. - "What!! You haven't been baptized by an apostle?? Oh man. it's the greatest! Talk about "sure of your salvation"
Besides Jesus baptized with the spirit and that was far more important.
I also want to make it clear that while I recommend baptism for the spiritual experience, I in no way endorse "leaning on, or trusting in" the experience or the person baptizing you rather than developing a relationship with the Lord.
Modern times, I don't think Billy Graham baptized others for these same reasons.
Being human, we tend to trust in "What we've done (Baptism, walk the aisle, come forward, publicly acknowledge, Holy communion, confession, Lord's supper, etc. - all "works in disguise")rather than what God has done" :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

Wow brother....that makes really good sense. :o)

[micah7:9]

Naturally.

[sheila]

  very good points.   I see it as symbology[John's baptism] the repenting and turning from a course of sin...

  and a TURNING unto The Lamb that takes away the sin..Thus Prepare the Way......for the Lord..that

will show you how to walk in the Way[make straight paths for your feet]

     Like a preparatory work of the Heart...to accept  'He who comes in the name of the Lord"   who then

  leads and anoints with the spirit.

   John preached 'repentance"[heart motivated] a turning away from a course of error..and a turning unto

  the Lord[heart motivated]

[micah7:9]

IMO. Jesus didn't water baptize anyone because of pride - not his pride, but everyone else's.
"Oh yeah! Who baptized you?? I was Baptized by Jesus himself na-na-na-nana"
I think the same is true to a lesser effect with Paul. - "What!! You haven't been baptized by an apostle?? Oh man. it's the greatest! Talk about "sure of your salvation"
Besides Jesus baptized with the spirit and that was far more important.
I also want to make it clear that while I recommend baptism for the spiritual experience, I in no way endorse "leaning on, or trusting in" the experience or the person baptizing you rather than developing a relationship with the Lord.
Modern times, I don't think Billy Graham baptized others for these same reasons.
Being human, we tend to trust in "What we've done (Baptism, walk the aisle, come forward, publicly acknowledge, Holy communion, confession, Lord's supper, etc. - all "works in disguise")rather than what God has done" :Peace2:

"I also want to make it clear that while I recommend baptism for the spiritual experience,...."


Luk 12:50  but I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I pressed till it may be completed!
Joh 1:33  and I did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water, He said to me, On whomsoever thou mayest see the Spirit coming down, and remaining on him, this is he who is baptizing with the Holy Spirit;
Eph 4:5  one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

A spiritual experience....imo of course.  :HeartThrob:

[ded2daworld]

Right Micah. The "one Baptism" is not the one with water but the one from above with the Holy Spirit entering us and taking up residence. :friendstu:

[misszoolander]

Praise God we are not saved through works but by grace  :dsunny:

I remember when I was first baptised, I was 14 and went to church mainly for the social side. I loved youth group, I loved my peers, I loved my youth group pastor, which is why I got baptised. I did not love God at the time, I was brought up with traditional Christianity and God to me was like some kind of distant great uncle that you have heard about, but never seen.

I use to pray in tongues, but only because I saw the people I loved doing the same. I look back and realise I had no idea, and I use to feel as though I had wasted my baptism.

However I feel God gave me a second chance, and there was a moment in my life where I came to God, and I was hungry for him, and he came upon on me with the holy spirit (For three days I felt nothing but perfect love and grace, I began to see people through Gods eyes) and my whole life was changed, I knew I was going to follow and serve the Lord for the rest of my life.

Jesus knew my water Baptism was a joke because my heart was not focused on him, But when he saw how hungry I was for him and the truth, I believe in that second I was baptised by the Holy Spirit. I did not need to be in water for it to happen, I remember picturing my past life, how bleak; dark and depressive and then I looked to God, and said aloud "God my way will never work, I choose your way" - then BAM I felt the Holy Spirit for the first time.  :HeartThrob:

[ded2daworld]

Beautiful! :dsunny: :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Right Micah. The "one Baptism" is not the one with water but the one from above with the Holy Spirit entering us and taking up residence. :friendstu:

I think the one baptism is into the life of Christ, the living water, and includes the baptism in water and the baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire. Paul said to John's disciples..... "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed". Personally, I believe the Holy Spirit resides in anyone who believes- but the "baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire" is something additional to that.

[lomarah]

Eaglesway I do wish this was more clear cut in the scriptures and more evident in everyday life! I do wonder what exactly is the difference... you know, with the baptism of the Holy Ghost versus just "having" the Holy Ghost... it's a subject on which I have little to no understanding, but wish I did!

[eaglesway]

I have a Charismatic/Pentecostal background, but I never really accepted the teachings many of them gave about it. I believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is like a cup running over, or a fountain flowing out of a hole in the ground. It occurs periodically and is renewed frequently among those who gather in "one place in one accord"(Acts 2, Acts 4). I think it happens less frequently to isolated individuals- most everywhere I read of it in scripture it is a corporate experience.

In the old testament the fire of God enveloped the "acceptable" offering, that which was offered according to the instructions of the Lord and in the right attitude.

I believe this is described well in Romans 12: 1-3

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
(Rom 12:1-3)

The rest of the chapter goes on to speak about the manifestations of the Spirit in the body as a diversely gifted whole.

In like manner, Ephesians chapter four begins,

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
(Eph 4:1-7)


After describing the "acceptable offering", the rest of the chapter describes the manifestations/gifts/callings of the Spirit among the diversified whole of the body of Christ.

I don't believe the evidence of the baptism in the spirit with fire is speaking in tongues, altho I believe that can be among the evidences. The primary evidence is the love of God manifesting in the community of believers- the fruits of the spirit. The secondary evidences are prophetic insights into the current activities of God in the earth and among His people, Healing, Deliverance from sins and addictions, gifts of the spirit and evangelistic ministry, etc.

I my years as a believer, I have seen bogus religious imitations of the gifts of the spirit....but I have also been blessed to see and participate in some genuine outpourings of the Spirit and manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit-  such as healing, deliverance, prophesy etc.

[lomarah]

Awesome. I've never been a part of a body where the Spirit was abundantly present... I often daydream about it though. I have tasted of the gifts in a smaller scale and am so very thankful for it. I do long for the day that I get to experience these things while present with my brothers and sisters. Worshipping the Lord together, healing, prophecy, words of wisdom, words of knowledge being shared, and most of all LOVE....

[eaglesway]

Yea, definitely, most of all LOVE. It is written, "And the Lord worked with them confirming the word with signs and wonders". I believe God confirms the word, and the word is Jesus- His character, His divine nature, His generosity, His grace, His goodwill towards men- expressed thru the body. I also believe the reason we do not see the works of the Spirit much is not that God does not work that way anymore, it is the lack of love(because iniquity abounds the love of many grows cold) within the body of Christ, the lack of good will towards men(I was thirsty and you gave me no drink), and the lack of truth(doctrines like ET for instance).  :2c: