Fullness of Gentiles, or Full number of Gentiles?

[gregoryfl]

Read a slightly less literal translation of Rom 11:25, and it says:
For I want to let you know about this secret, brothers, so that you will not claim to be wiser than you are: Stubbornness has come to part of Israel until the full number of the gentiles comes to faith.
(Rom 11:25)

Compare this with the more literal rendering of the Greek:
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
(Rom 11:25)

A comparison of an Aramaic Old Testament passage with the Aramaic Pecrapta rendering of this verse...
Gen 48:19 וזרעה (and his seed) נהוא (will become) מלא (fullness of) עממא (the nations)
Rom 11:25 מוליא (fullness) דעממא (of the nations)

And also a translation of the Greek of Rom 11:25 back into Hebrew, compared with the Hebrew of Gen 48:19...
Gen 48:19 וזרעה (and his seed) יהיה (will become) מלא (fullness of) הגוים (the nations)
Rom 11:25 מלא (fullness of) הגוים (the nations) [Delitzsch Hebrew New Testament]

reveals something remarkable...a twofold witness that links Paul's thought in Romans back to Genesis, the foundation where he got the phrase from. In other words, when he uses the phrase, 'fullness of the Gentiles', he is not referring to a number of gentiles at all, but of a group among the gentiles, referred to as 'fullness' by Israel all the way back in Genesis, something one of Joseph's sons would become.

Ronen

[rosered]

  Thank you Ronen!!
I love it , seen also in Gen 17      about Abram  is this the Jewish only ?       not sure ?  I know its the same seed of faith perhaps


3 Then Abram ·bowed facedown on the ground [L fell on his face]. God said to him,


4 "I am making my ·agreement [covenant; treaty; 6:18] with you: I will make you the father of ·many [L a host/multitude of] nations.

5 I am changing your name from Abram [C meaning "exalted father"] to Abraham [C sounds like "father of a multitude" in Hebrew] because I am making you a father of ·many [L a host/multitude of] nations.


6 I will ·give you many descendants [L cause you to be exceedingly fruitful; 1:22]. ·New nations will be born from you [L I will make nations of you], and kings will come from you.

7 And I will make an ·agreement [covenant; treaty; 6:18] between me and you and all your ·descendants [L seed] ·from now on [or forever]: I will be your God and the God of all your descendants.

8 You live in the land of Canaan now as a ·stranger [sojourner; wanderer; resident alien], but I will give you and your ·descendants [L seed] all this land ·forever [L as a permanent possesssion]. And I will be the God of your ·descendants [L seed]."

[Tom]

I agree. I think the verse is telling us that Israel's current situation is only temporary until all those who are chosen are called out of the nations. Despite the fact that Paul was "a persecutor and an outrager" who "ravaged" the ecclesia, it seems God made a very wise choice in choosing to use him to show the power of grace to change a life and to evangelize the nations because of his knowledge of the scriptures which allowed him to use such phrases as "the complement of the nations" to explain things so well. 

"For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering." (Romans 11:25)

[eaglesway]

The fulness. Very cool. "An administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together of all into one in Christ"

For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all to Himself by the blood of His cross.

"For in Him tabernacles the fulness of deity in bodily form."

These are all the greek word, "pleroma", but it is interesting how fulness relates to changes in epoch and the purposes of God. Like a nation not being judged until the cup of their iniquity is full.

I wonder if pleroma is a translation of  מלא


Also, interesting, since the partial hardening is until "the fulness" comes in, it could be mentioned that this fulness constitutes the full gathering of the firstfruits in this age, Jew and Gentile, the "called out ones" from both made into one new man prepared to serve in Christ reconciling men in the ages to come.

Also that Abraham was "called out" and made the father of all those, Jew and Gentile who would be separated from men by faith.

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

[rosered]

  I love it Bro John !!

  I  always think of Jesus saying when I return will I FIND FAITH   in/on  the earth? 
  This is Jesus  question  to us    it seems ??   faith moves the mountain    :flowerred:

!!   Luke 18:8  Expanded Bible (EXB)

8 I tell you, God will ·help [provide justice to] his people ·quickly [or suddenly].

·But [However; Yet] when the Son of Man comes again, will he find ·those on earth who believe in him [L faith on the earth; C God's faithfulness is certain; the only question is whether people will remain faithful to him]?"

[marie glen]

Read a slightly less literal translation of Rom 11:25, and it says:
For I want to let you know about this secret, brothers, so that you will not claim to be wiser than you are: Stubbornness has come to part of Israel until the full number of the gentiles comes to faith.
(Rom 11:25)

Compare this with the more literal rendering of the Greek:
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
(Rom 11:25)

A comparison of an Aramaic Old Testament passage with the Aramaic Pecrapta rendering of this verse...
Gen 48:19 וזרעה (and his seed) נהוא (will become) מלא (fullness of) עממא (the nations)
Rom 11:25 מוליא (fullness) דעממא (of the nations)

And also a translation of the Greek of Rom 11:25 back into Hebrew, compared with the Hebrew of Gen 48:19...
Gen 48:19 וזרעה (and his seed) יהיה (will become) מלא (fullness of) הגוים (the nations)
Rom 11:25 מלא (fullness of) הגוים (the nations) [Delitzsch Hebrew New Testament]

reveals something remarkable...a twofold witness that links Paul's thought in Romans back to Genesis, the foundation where he got the phrase from. In other words, when he uses the phrase, 'fullness of the Gentiles', he is not referring to a number of gentiles at all, but of a group among the gentiles, referred to as 'fullness' by Israel all the way back in Genesis, something one of Joseph's sons would become.

Ronen

Aha! I love it! thanks! ..makes me think of Rev and the sealing on the forehead, yes of 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel but also, imo, of the great crowd too many to number from all nations, tribes and tongues.. the seal of God on the forehead (Rev 7 during a pause of ?) to go with the one on the heart when one is saved/comes to faith