Why are we so frowned upon?

[UniversalSceptic]

It truly astounds me how crafty Satan is. These people don't realize that Jesus says people will reject you if you preach the Good News. Now, they assume that because atheists reject them, that means they are on the right track, not realizing they are persecuting a even smaller minority. What they seem to forget in Jesus' day, was that it wasn't the street sinners that persecuted the apostles.c but it was the Church itself, and they do the same thing. I've come to realize. Universalists add nothing to the verses like religious folks do. Many times people say "We have to warn others of Hell" there was no urgency to warn the masses of Hell in the New Testament. I came across someone using Pascal's Wager to try and convert someone and immediately I thought of Jesus words: "You do not know what manner of spirit you are speaking".

[Tom]

I don't think there's any point in warning anybody about "hell" because it's something anybody who dies experiences including Christ after he was crucified. That's because "hell" is simply the unseen state of dead souls. So the dummies who warn folks about "hell" are warning them not to die like you have any control over that. We are "frowned upon," as you say, because truth is not popular in the world. That's why they killed Christ. Truth especially enrages the established world religious institution that controls its followers with fear of imaginary torture in fire forever. Those that operate that systematized deception and those that are deceived by it hate anybody who threatens their monopoly of salvation by works that empowers them. We should expect persecution when we speak the truth, and that is exactly what we get. Just try commenting on YouTube, Google+, or somewhere about the truth of scripture and see what happens. You'll get hit from the right by church folks and from the left by atheists. You're right about Satan being "crafty" because deception is his method of operation. That's why I think the church is Satan's most effective deception because it has the appearance of being God's institution, but it is evil to the core.

"For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light. It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness--whose consummation shall be according to their acts." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

[UniversalSceptic]

No, you are right there. It gets to the point where people think that as some stranger on the internet they can somehow sway people I to there beliefs. I don't usually think atheists have a good point, but this one did. One cannot simply change there entire mindset just by being told to. God can donor of course, but man cannot. What I constantly tell myself is that I cannot hope to honestly, sincerely love God when I believe he is going to torture others in Hell. I was taught to care and have compassion for other people. Hell was a stain on my life. Anytime I did something good, I questioned whether it was sincere or just a desperate attempt to prove my salvation by works. That is what this Hell doctrine breeds: When you are self critical and analytical like I am, you question if anything good you do is sincere or selfish. Generally, though you do get blasted by atheists and Christians alike. Most Universalits are accused of adding words when are they do is quote the verses as they are and explain them. if someone who believes in Hell can't use that verse to defend there doctrine, they'll just go to a different verse and say "but this verse says Hell is real so this verse has to be modified to fit with that belief". Therefore to them all doesn't mean all, but is only meant to refer to all of the elect even though the context doesn't suggest it.

[Tom]

And, if you show them that "Gehenna" was intentionally mistranslated as "hell" twelve times in the New Testament, then they have no way to show that "hell" even has anything to do with fire or is anything more than just the unseen state of dead souls because it is dying that is our fate not torture in fire forever.

[UniversalSceptic]

I don't know how one is to provide proof of that. If you use the YLT, they will just claim it is corrupt and not listen to anything you say. I guess if you show them a Greek concordance, they'd be inclined to listen.

[Seth]

I don't know how one is to provide proof of that. If you use the YLT, they will just claim it is corrupt and not listen to anything you say. I guess if you show them a Greek concordance, they'd be inclined to listen.

At some point, when a person is not ready to accept facts, they will willfully deny them,no matter what you do. But unless they have a scripture that says "Gehenna represents hell" then their beliefs are a matter of conjecture. Nobody is bound to believe their conjecture, and we are free to study the scripture instead.

[Tom]

I don't know how one is to provide proof of that. If you use the YLT, they will just claim it is corrupt and not listen to anything you say. I guess if you show them a Greek concordance, they'd be inclined to listen.

Check out the attachment, bro.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[eaglesway]

 

And, if you show them that "Gehenna" was intentionally mistranslated as "hell" twelve times in the New Testament, then they have no way to show that "hell" even has anything to do with fire or is anything more than just the unseen state of dead souls because it is dying that is our fate not torture in fire forever.

Gehenna had a lot to do with fire. sheol does not. But we will pace a lot of weight on anything that is in the scriptures and gehenna is there 12 times and there is also Matthew 18:8 and 25:41 where Jesus references being cast into "aionian pur" or as they translate it, "eternal fire", which we kno is age-during fire. Also in revelations there is the lake of fire and brimstone, brimstone being "theon"(godfire).

So, in my opinion, you cannot get away from the fire, and it is not the most effective way to win adversaries to the true gospel of the salvation of all.

IMO you have to fight fire WITH fire, not denying fire or torment per say, but rather showing that the nature of the fire is purifying, and the duration not eternal.

I personally begin with "Our God is a consuming fire" and "God is light", explaining that light is fire to darkness and that is what is being consumed in Gehenna/the lake of fire/hell. I take them to Revelations 2:18 and 19:12 showing that Jesus eyes are as flames of fire, then to Heb4:12,13 that "all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do" and explain eternal judgment in terms of 1 Cor 4:5

Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

and


and Roman's 2.....their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

So I fight fire with fire, concentrating on the nature of fire as a consumer of darkness and a purifying agent of limited duration.


In some of the main "fire" justifications for hell.....

Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Every grain of wheat is a soft seed encased in hard chaff. The grains are beaten with the threshing fork, to separate the wheat from the chaff. This verse has nothing to do with eternal torment or hell but speaks instead of the righteous discipline by which the Lord separates the seed from the chaff in every individual kernel, gathering the seeds and then destroying the hard shell of chaff- the waste material, with unquenchable fire.

Unquenchable does not mean it burns forever. Unquenchable means you, the seed, cannot put it out. It will burn until all the chaff is gone out of your life.


:2c:

[dajomaco]

I think I understand the purifying fire.
The refining fire like that of a smelter.

Is there any correcting fire?
If someone is alive the correction has purpose, they can change.

Is there any fire in this age or the next that is punitive or retributive ?

[WhiteWings]

I think I understand the purifying fire.
The refining fire like that of a smelter.

Is there any correcting fire?

For me refining equals correcting.
Refining is the process of removing impurities called dross from the silver or gold.
Correction is the process of removing impurities called sin from a person.

If someone is alive the correction has purpose, they can change.

Is there any fire in this age or the next that is punitive or retributive ?

IF there is a punitive fire it will be for example a fire that burns down a city.
When relating to persons Jesus always used the word correction. Obviously He spoke for the natural and spiritual.

[eaglesway]

I don't think there is any fire in the age to come that is retributive, altho when you read of Gog and Magog and the end of the thousand years, in John's Apocalypse, I wouldn't argue with someone who called that, or the fire that fell on Sodom and Gomorah retributive. Certainly the lake of fire is corrective, but when I read Jesus' words "depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels" or paul's words in 2 Thess

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting(olam/aionios) destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I can see some retribution in there, a recompense related directly to ones deeds and attitudes toward God, His children and the helpless.

[Tom]

I think I understand the purifying fire.
The refining fire like that of a smelter.

Is there any correcting fire?
If someone is alive the correction has purpose, they can change.

Is there any fire in this age or the next that is punitive or retributive ?

I think a judgment of the nations, figuratively the sheep and the goats, will take place at the beginning of the next eon, a thousand years before the great white throne judgment, and the result will be "fire eonian," figuratively signifying severe trial, for the nations who were adversarial toward Israel. The purpose is for correction.

"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (Matthew 25:46)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[rosered]

  what fire did Jesus bring to the earth   in Luke 12 :49  to create the divisions  between the Law and Grace ?
  His   Baptism  , is the same baptism       we have to undergo also to separate the  law    from grace
   when the Law is in effect   by force  many become self righteous  and prideful and the man of sin in them becomes exposed     

   this one has to be taken out of the way  , by the fire of  His breath  /coming

   for the HOLY SPIRIT  AND FIRE are the corrective     , fiery trials in a Lake that death  under the Fiery law     , the  false prophet  / liars     and  beast carnal in nature    are already in
and satan last because HE IS THE ACCUSER OF THE BRETHREN  !!   same as a murderer      from the start and many under the  false  religion Babylon are accusing and sending to  torment   as they judge are being judged now !!

  while the new creature in Christ are given the new heavens   and earth Rev 21       read it



  Rev 20        please know this is happening now even though we dont see this with the natural eye 
    the Kingdoms   of this world are failing and the Kingdom of God is being     built      as we  speak


   JUDGEMENT BEGINS IN THE HOUSE OF GOD !!  1Peter 4 
16but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.


17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God;


and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?

  the godless man and sinner are  burning in the fire !!  many do not understand  we all have the evil and good  mixture in them    , its coming out of the old and into the new that is the works of God     ,
is everyone doomed to misery        and only a few be    saved ?       the elect are used by God for one purpose and that is to get the goodnews of the gospel  spread to all the ends of the earth           our earth and than everyone    else      we are His witnesses in the earth      , just as the Holy Spirit    this great cloud are His witnesses    in heaven    already!!   

19 So those who suffer ·as God wants [or because God has allowed it; L according to the will of God] should trust their souls to the faithful Creator as they continue to do what is ·right [good].         

[eaglesway]

No one should under-estimate the degree to which the enemy fights the outbreak of truth and grace.

Martyrdoms through out history have shown the price that truth must pay for its shining.

There should be no surprise that we are frowned upon.

Our gospel takes the profit out of theirs, relieves the fear and the insanity of a God of eternal torment.

It is the devil who has promoted these lies, and he don't let go easy :o)

2 Cor 4:4 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; 8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.

[rosered]

No one should under-estimate the degree to which the enemy fights the outbreak of truth and grace.

Martyrdoms through out history have shown the price that truth must pay for its shining.

There should be no surprise that we are frowned upon.

Our gospel takes the profit out of theirs, relieves the fear and the insanity of a God of eternal torment.

It is the devil who has promoted these lies, and he don't let go easy :o)

2 Cor 4:4 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; 8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.

  precious in the sight of the Lord are the death of His saints / holy ones!!!   to me its the better resurrections!!  Hebrews 11 ;35
Paul said he died daily to  getting out the good news of the gospel  for all to hear!




Psalm 116 Expanded Bible (EXB)

Thanksgiving for Escaping Death
116 I love the Lord,
    because he ·listens to my prayers for help [L hears/or heard my voice, my prayer of supplication].
2 He ·paid attention [L extends his ear] to me,
    so I will ·call to him for help [call; pray] ·as long as I live [L in my days].
3 The ·ropes [cords] of death ·bound [encompass] me,
    and the ·fear [hardship; distress] of ·the grave [L Sheol; C the grave or the underworld] ·took hold of [reached; found] me.
    I ·was troubled and sad [L found distress and sadness].
4 Then I ·called out [prayed in] the name of the Lord.
    I said, "Please, Lord, ·save [rescue] me!"
5 The Lord is ·kind [gracious] and ·does what is right [righteous];
    our God is ·merciful [compassionate; Ex. 34:6–7].
6 The Lord ·watches over [keeps; guards] the ·foolish [immature; simpleminded];
    when I was ·helpless [brought low], he ·saved me [gave me victory].
7 I said to myself, "·Relax [L Return, my soul/life to your rest],
    because the Lord ·takes care of you [treats you well]."
8 Lord, you ·saved [rescued] me from death.
    ·You stopped my eyes from crying [L ...and my eyes from tears];
    ·you kept me from being defeated [L ...my feet from stumbling].
9 So I will walk ·with [before; in the presence of] the Lord
    in the land of the living [C as opposed to the grave].
10 I ·believed [trusted], so I said,
    "I am ·completely ruined [afflicted greatly; 2 Cor. 4:13]."
11 In my ·distress [worry] I said,
    "All people are liars [Rom. 3:4]."
12 What can I ·give [L return to] the Lord
    for all the ·good things [benefits] he has given to me?
13 I will lift up the cup of salvation,
    and I will pray ·to [L in the name of] the Lord.
14 I will ·give the Lord what I promised [pay my vow to the Lord]
    in front of all his people.
15 The death of ·one that belongs to the Lord [his loyal ones/saints]
    is precious in his ·sight [L eyes].
16 Lord, I am your servant;
    I am your servant and the son of your female servant.
    You have ·freed me from [loosened] my chains.
17 I will give you ·an offering to show thanks to you [a thanksgiving offering],
    and I will pray ·to [L in the name of] the Lord.
18 I will ·give the Lord what I promised [pay my vow to the Lord]
    in front of all his people,
19 in the ·Temple courtyards [L courtyards of the house of the Lord]
    in your midst, Jerusalem.
Praise the Lord!

[Tom]

And, if you show them that "Gehenna" was intentionally mistranslated as "hell" twelve times in the New Testament, then they have no way to show that "hell" even has anything to do with fire or is anything more than just the unseen state of dead souls because it is dying that is our fate not torture in fire forever.

Gehenna had a lot to do with fire. sheol does not. But we will pace a lot of weight on anything that is in the scriptures and gehenna is there 12 times and there is also Matthew 18:8 and 25:41 where Jesus references being cast into "aionian pur" or as they translate it, "eternal fire", which we kno is age-during fire. Also in revelations there is the lake of fire and brimstone, brimstone being "theon"(godfire).

So, in my opinion, you cannot get away from the fire, and it is not the most effective way to win adversaries to the true gospel of the salvation of all.

IMO you have to fight fire WITH fire, not denying fire or torment per say, but rather showing that the nature of the fire is purifying, and the duration not eternal.

I personally begin with "Our God is a consuming fire" and "God is light", explaining that light is fire to darkness and that is what is being consumed in Gehenna/the lake of fire/hell. I take them to Revelations 2:18 and 19:12 showing that Jesus eyes are as flames of fire, then to Heb4:12,13 that "all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do" and explain eternal judgment in terms of 1 Cor 4:5

Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

and


and Roman's 2.....their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

So I fight fire with fire, concentrating on the nature of fire as a consumer of darkness and a purifying agent of limited duration.


In some of the main "fire" justifications for hell.....

Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Every grain of wheat is a soft seed encased in hard chaff. The grains are beaten with the threshing fork, to separate the wheat from the chaff. This verse has nothing to do with eternal torment or hell but speaks instead of the righteous discipline by which the Lord separates the seed from the chaff in every individual kernel, gathering the seeds and then destroying the hard shell of chaff- the waste material, with unquenchable fire.

Unquenchable does not mean it burns forever. Unquenchable means you, the seed, cannot put it out. It will burn until all the chaff is gone out of your life.


:2c:

I think "Gehenna" should be explained for what it actually is, was, and will be used for, and it should be made clear that is not "hell" which has no association with fire at all unless you count forgery in the translation of scripture or the parable Christ used to turn the Pharisees' false teachings against them.

"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html

[eaglesway]

I agree that gehenna is not hell, that in fact there is no hell, but gehenna was a place of burning, so I personally believe that explaining what the fire of God is, and applying that to the verses which obviously connect flames with kolassis is better than denying its existence, or taking an emphatic stand against scriptures that are there in the mouth of the Lord. Our interpretation of fire is clearly different, but it doesnt prevent our both being assured that all will be reconciled.