Hello brothers and sisters in Christ.
I do not know about you, but speaking for myself, when I discovered US, it was like finally seeing color for the first time. I cried with joy, and worshiped God truly (not out of fear) for the first time.
After studying and researching and telling people about the "good news" I have noticed that we are probably more frowned upon then Muslims, Buddhists possibly even Satanists. I often look at debate forums, and we get attacked with lines like "Stop taking the bible out of contexts, and stop believing this evil doctrine which is spun from Satan himself."
I have to admit my heart sinks a bit, and I often to pray to Jesus to give me assurance that I am on the right path.
It makes me wonder why traditional Christians despise us so much? I mean we believe the same thing, and to simplify it the only difference is we believe all men will be saved. We get our revelations from the bible, so it is not like we are producing this doctrine out of thin air..
It just hurts when our fellow sisters and brothers accuse us of spreading "Satan's lies". I know that I love Jesus, and God allot more then I ever have, and I now worship him because he is so wonderful, not out of fear, I can not see how that comes from Satan? I still ask Jesus for guidance every day, surely he would not lead me into false paths.
Why do I feel condemned from my fellow Christians?! it makes my heart heavy.
Too often, the systematic theology of Christians is their god and their veil.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:15-18)
The doctrines are like graven images to worship. They are also like towers and strongholds exalting against themselves against the true knowledge of God.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
(2Co 4:3-7)
The god of this world has veiled their minds and he will fight the gospel tooth and nail because it sets people free- free indeed. We therefore, preach not ourselves, but Christ and Him crucified- for all, and hope that the doctrine of the restoration of all does not become and idol as well for us :o)
I've been accused of pushing the "doctrines of devils" too. I chalk it up to ingrained thinking and cognitive dissonance. The Good News is just too good, and a lot of folks would prefer to see most of humanity cast into Hell - but not them, of course.
Exactly Laz. Even my own loving wife but ET'er said she thanks God there is a hell for the shooter in Conneticut while praying for the salvation of her circle of friends and family - cuz they are going there too according to her. I asked if she thought it was fair for her grandsons to end up in the same place as the shooter but she said NO but it isn't fair that the shooter would be with them in heaven either. I asked, is it fair that any of us will be in heaven?
ASK HER WHAT SHE THINKS JESUS WORDS TO LOVE YOUR ENEMIES MEANS?
Answer: the old saw about "if someone breaks into our house to kill and rob us, then I'm just supposed to offer them coffee before they do it or stop them and kill them if I have to?" (She is a crack shot. I've never held a gun in my hand.)
LOL! SHE'S A SHARP SHOOTER ALRIGHT! SOUNDS LIKE YOU GOT YOUR HANDS FULL!
i HAVE A 410 THAT i REBLUED AND REFINISHED 20 SOMETHING YEARS AGO....i BOUGHT IT
AS A 'VARMENT' GUN ON THE FARM...TO SCARE OFF..SKUNKS..COYOTES ETC.. i USED TO
SHOOT CANS WITH IT OFF THE FENCE POST. i MOVED IN TOWN 5 YEARS AGO..AND HAVE NO BULLETS.
i DID NOT BUY ANY AS MY GRAND-DAUGHTER IS SEVERE MENTAL ILL..AND SHARP KNIVES
AND NO BULLETS/GUNS IN HOUSE WAS INSTRUCTED[SUICIDAL]
I guess I should have pointed out that under ET, the teachers and the students that were "old enough to understand about Jesus" but hadn't "accepted him as Lord were going to be eternally tortured along with the shooter.
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 18, 2012, 04:25:57 PM
Exactly Laz. Even my own loving wife but ET'er said she thanks God there is a hell for the shooter in Conneticut while praying for the salvation of her circle of friends and family - cuz they are going there too according to her. I asked if she thought it was fair for her grandsons to end up in the same place as the shooter but she said NO but it isn't fair that the shooter would be with them in heaven either. I asked, is it fair that any of us will be in heaven?
It occurs to me that the Westboro Baptist Church is following the logic of Hell to its inevitable conclusion. Wen I lived in Kansas City, I took an interest in WBC, partly because they were in nearby Topeka, and partly because the head of the church, Fred Phelps, was such an interesting case. Seems he was a mean, hardbitten Kansas lawyer, who was so mean to witnesses and so adversarial, that he got himself disbarred. Now, they do their outrageous picketing, and if someone punches a WBC member, or busts up one of their vans, they sue. That is how they support themselves. It's little more than a scam...
They are like a synagogue of Satan, having a name that they live, but they minister death. They even go beyond the logical conclusion of the hell message because even most ET belioevers would understand, "Weep with those who weep. mourn with those who mourn".
SPIRITUAL MONSTERS.........
.....GOOD EXAMPLE of the man of lawlessness sitting in the temple of God.....
.......guess their counterfiet signs of hate at these protests..will have to do[frankly i expected more]
I had an interesting discussion with my Uncle, who said he thinks hell is what the sinners choose, they choose darkness over light, so for eternity they will be in darkness. He does not think they will be burning in hell for eternity, but they are eternally separated from God because they choose to be. "The gates of hell are locked from the inside" mentality. Everything that God is, pure, love, good these sinners purposely deprive themselves of it in the spiritual realm thus creating their own hell.
After thinking about what he said, I couldn't help but think about Paul, how a man that hated Jesus loved him with one flash of God's blinding light. Yes, Paul out of his own free will made the decision to do Gods will, but it was only after God blinded him, and he got to experience the awesome power of God. If Paul a person who hated Christ could be changed in the blink of an eye why can't other non believers? I can not imagine anyone after death facing God and saying "I do not believe! I do not accept!" Honestly I think God's love and power are too inescapable to even consider that. Imagine experiencing God truly for the first time, everything you have felt or believed towards him would fade away, you are faced with the creator of the universe, I doubt people would still choose seclusion. That's where I believe our gift of free will comes into play, because we have felt darkness, and the consequences of sin, we can now truly glorify God, not because we are robots, but because we know with every fiber of our being that he is good, he is the light, and how much more does the light shine brighter after being in a world of darkness!
My search for US came when I stumbled across a video "Why babies go to hell" and it was a Pastor explaining that babies baptized or not plainly go to hell, and burn forever. He was talking about how infants scream in pools of molten lava, while the saints in heaven watch and rejoice. Unfortunately when I watched this I thought Of Devon, my sister's 13 month old boy who drowned tragically just weeks ago.
After much praying, and reflecting and reading my bible I knew that this simply can not be true, and I prayed to God to reveal the truth to me, because I found it extremely hard to love a God whole heartily who would send people into fire to be tortured forever, and he revealed the truth to me, and my heart rejoiced, however the pain of people calling me Satan's servant, or people condemning others to hell cuts me like a knife. The real kicker comes in when they condemn me to hell for believing this so called evil doctrine. Apparently I am on the slippery slopes of the fiery pit. Strength Lord Jesus! Give us strength!
You are right Eagle, US or ET shouldn't be our idols, Jesus should be number one. Sometimes we tend to forget the big picture, before Heaven was my Idol, not God. Now Jesus is my Idol, but I need to be careful that US does not override that.
Quote from: misszoolander on December 18, 2012, 10:36:56 PM
I had an interesting discussion with my Uncle, who said he thinks hell is what the sinners choose, they choose darkness over light, so for eternity they will be in darkness. He does not think they will be burning in hell for eternity, but they are eternally separated from God because they choose to be. "The gates of hell are locked from the inside" mentality. Everything that God is, pure, love, good these sinners purposely deprive themselves of it in the spiritual realm thus creating their own hell.
After thinking about what he said, I couldn't help but think about Paul, how a man that hated Jesus loved him with one flash of God's blinding light. Yes, Paul out of his own free will made the decision to do Gods will, but it was only after God blinded him, and he got to experience the awesome power of God. If Paul a person who hated Christ could be changed in the blink of an eye why can't other non believers? I can not imagine anyone after death facing God and saying "I do not believe! I do not accept!" Honestly I think God's love and power are too inescapable to even consider that. Imagine experiencing God truly for the first time, everything you have felt or believed towards him would fade away, you are faced with the creator of the universe, I doubt people would still choose seclusion. That's where I believe our gift of free will comes into play, because we have felt darkness, and the consequences of sin, we can now truly glorify God, not because we are robots, but because we know with every fiber of our being that he is good, he is the light, and how much more does the light shine brighter after being in a world of darkness!
My search for US came when I stumbled across a video "Why babies go to hell" and it was a Pastor explaining that babies baptized or not plainly go to hell, and burn forever. He was talking about how infants scream in pools of molten lava, while the saints in heaven watch and rejoice. Unfortunately when I watched this I thought Of Devon, my sister's 13 month old boy who drowned tragically just weeks ago.
After much praying, and reflecting and reading my bible I knew that this simply can not be true, and I prayed to God to reveal the truth to me, because I found it extremely hard to love a God whole heartily who would send people into fire to be tortured forever, and he revealed the truth to me, and my heart rejoiced, however the pain of people calling me Satan's servant, or people condemning others to hell cuts me like a knife. The real kicker comes in when they condemn me to hell for believing this so called evil doctrine. Apparently I am on the slippery slopes of the fiery pit. Strength Lord Jesus! Give us strength!
You are right Eagle, US or ET shouldn't be our idols, Jesus should be number one. Sometimes we tend to forget the big picture, before Heaven was my Idol, not God. Now Jesus is my Idol, but I need to be careful that US does not override that.
"The gates of hell are locked from the inside" was a quote from C.S. Lewis a well known theologian. He believed a person is in hell because they chose to go there. He believed a person could leave hell anytime they so choose or desired. He believed they choose to stay in hell because of their hatred for God, so they resist and reject God eternally. I don't believe this. I don't believe the self will of man can resist and reject forever the love of an All Powerful, and All Loving God who can demostrate His love to them in an endless array of ways. I believe the Love and Grace of God will eventually melt the hardened hearts of even the most evil and wicked persons. If God can draw Saul of Tarsus, the chief of sinners to himself, it just seems logical God can draw all mankind to Himself. And that's excatly what God says He will do---"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME" John 12:32. God will not force mankind to Himself, God will draw all mankind to Himself through His Love and Grace expressed in the power of the Cross(Colossians 1:20; John 12:32).
I was very deeply moved by your testimony. Yes, Jesus is number one- Praise God for that, for it is the key to why WE are US :o)
Col 1:15-20
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn( #1 :declare:) of all creation. For by Him all things were created,
both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been
created through Him and for Him( #1 :gimmefive:). He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together( #1 :myahoo:). He is
also head of the body, the church( #1 :egyptdance:); and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will
come to have first place in everything( #1 :trampoline:). For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to
dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross;
through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Thank you Eagle :dsunny:
I now look back on Devon, and rejoice for he was Gods gift. It's no longer hard to see pictures of him, or to wonder if he is OK.
Praise Jesus that he died for all, that he saved all, even this little boy, who never got a chance in this life to hear the good news.
Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Thank you Jesus for helping this blind person see :HeartThrob:
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Yeah, the number one ET excuse is to say "God didn't send them to hell, they sent themselves there."
As if every person in the world had the same opportunity to know the REAL God but chose darkness instead.
Personally, I had such little respect for the "christians" I had encountered that I believe that God literally DID drag me kicking, screaming, protesting - because I believed in spite of my desires. God made me do it, I didn't want to or choose to.
Rev 3;7 these are the words of him who is holy and true....what he shuts no-one can open..
and what he opens no-one can shut......Rev 22 on no day will it's gates ever be shut.......
the Spirit and the bride say,'Come!!'
misszoolander, I know how you feel, at least a little, for my daughter almost drowned when she was a toddler.
Reading various posts today, I realized that there is a BIG disconnect between "God loves you, and has a wonderful plan for your life," Irresistible Grace, Jesus Saves, etc., and Eternal Torture in Hell. The skeptics and scoffers see this more clearly than the average Christian, I think.
Theology which contradicts itself does not attract the lost.
Laz said, "Theology which contradicts itself does not attract the lost."
Absolutely right. :thumbsup:
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 19, 2012, 05:52:59 AM
Laz said, "Theology which contradicts itself does not attract the lost."
Absolutely right. :thumbsup:
And it's precisely for this reason there is such a large contingent of unchurched Christians in my generation today (baby boomers). They're becoming better educated about the origins of Christian theology, and others. They're learning ancient historic texts often do not support dictates proferred in their Catechism & Sunday School classes. Their math & reading skills are better, and they've become fed up with established dogmatists trying to prop up failed theology.
IMO, The internet has changed everything. Information is available to almost all. In countries with widespread computer use, cult membership is failing, rather than rising as it did for the past 150 years. Even leaders are finding it harder to indoctrinate the masses. Those of us believing in UR would have few to talk to about it.
Hey everyone,
the number one reason why we are frowned upon is....
Because this message seriously destroys Churchianity, and the never-ending works that go on to save the lost before they burn forever.
If we take Hell away from them, what will they do!!!!!?
Why bother following Jesus if there is no Hell to fear?
Why bother praying for the sinners if they will all be saved anyway?
Why bother with any of the church stuff if fear of hell is taken away?
"You mean...the only motivation is LOVE?!" :eek:
You mean... I will not be banished to Hell if I miss church this Sunday? :eek:
You mean...God loves people so much that he plans to save them all? :laughing7:
:banana: :dsunny:
Hey Rhodes those 3 why's you brought out above are exactly what my ET wife says to me concerning UR. She feels that people won't "get in line" and "straighten up" without that threat.
"If you "get in line" and "straighten up" you can't have a group hug or get to know more than a couple of people."
- Jeff Smith
They won't get in line and straighten up without that threat, but they might fall in love with the beauty of God when they see what Jesus really did. Then you won't have to beat them into line all the time :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on December 20, 2012, 06:33:55 AM
They won't get in line and straighten up without that threat, but they might fall in love with the beauty of God when they see what Jesus really did. Then you won't have to beat them into line all the time :o)
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
(Isa 28:13)
That line ain't really the greatest place to be :o)
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
I think the problem is that we either try and remove this fear and thus allow the wicked to rule over us and despise us, when we are the ones who have the authority and they should fear our God.
Or we shove man made fear such as gossip, shame, slander or demonic fear on the wicked to fear us, instead of the fear of the magnificent king Holy righteous God. For it is a fearfull thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Quote from: misszoolander on December 18, 2012, 06:57:51 AM
Why do I feel condemned from my fellow Christians?! it makes my heart heavy.
Hey misszoo.
I recently ran a tiny little social experiment you might find interesting. The final conclusion I came to I think has much relevance to your question quoted above.
I went to a college bowl game a week or so ago. 60,000 in attendance.
During the pre-game festivites (aka tailgating), I impulsively and on a whim decided to start asking random people who looked approachable "a quick question about God". Generally, these were fast 1-2 minute conversations with people walking by our area. After they gave their answer, I did not seek to continue the conversation. I simply said, "Ok. Thanks for your answer. Enjoy the game!"
QUESTION:
Would you have a more favorable view of God if He was capable of saving the entire human race, all people, and that He has succeeded in this endeavor to save everyone, and one way or another, everyone eventually makes it to heaven?
4 no
2 would give me a less favorable view of God.
1 on the fence yes... This person initially said Yes. Then, after his friends answered No, he said it was a complicated question that couldn't be answered in Yes or No because a simple Yes would mean Hell did not exist.
1 emphatic "Yes, of course! Wouldn't this give everyone a more favorable view of God?"
The 1 emphatic yes was a homeless man.
This was by no means "scientific". The 7/8 people I asked this question to were white males from 28-40. They were probably sports enthusiasts. So this was not any kind of representative sample of everyone.
I wasn't sure what to expect. I was surprised by the majority of negative responses. But, (and here's the kicker) I was surprised by the coldness of the responses... what I perceived to be the scowl or apparent "dis-taste" of the possibility... ie the "hardness of heart". The exception being the homeless man. If I may combine my "sixth-sense" perception with a bit of speculation, I felt like most (5-6/8) of the people I asked sort of puffed up their chest, thought about some bad people they knew of (Hitler, NJ school shooter etc), and said to themselves... "no, there are some really bad people in the world. I'm not as bad as them so I know I'm ok, but those bad people really need to suffer and if God doesn't get them then God isn't fair and I don't like Him." OR... "I'm really trying to be a good guy and it's really hard sometimes. If those bad people I know get a free pass, then God isn't fair and I won't like that."
If I may stretch the speculation even further... Now, I realize the negativity could simply be coming from the fact that I was "interrupting people" at an otherwise pleasant party atmosphere with a serious question and so they subconsciously voiced their displeasure in the negative. It could also be that the people I asked, 8 white males, 3-4 of them fairly athletically in-shape "work out" guys... are sort of the "top of the food chain" aspiring alpha males of American culture... really buying into the "rat race" and striving as hard as they can to "be good", and "make it" the way success is defined in America. So the idea that some who don't work hard to "make it", get bliss just like they would, was disgusting to them.
This also hit me like a ton of bricks...
People are never willing to give others a "free pass" and "let them off the hook" until they realize and bask in the joy of knowing they themselves have been given a "free pass" and have been "let off the hook".
So right Jeremias :thumbsup:
So true! :Peace2:
Every traditional Christian I talk to about this usually has this wall of defense. They cling to their eternal torment doctrine as if it's in fact the belief in eternal hell that saves them, not Jesus.
It AMAZES me when our fellow Christians say "Oh you don't believe in hell? Well you sure are going to find out about it!" Really?
Who's playing God here? Does those words come out of a heart of love, or a heart of pride?
Doctrine does not save, Jesus saves.
I wonder who Jesus was really talking to when he said this "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean." Matthew 23:27
Who are the Pharisees of today? Who preach in big extravagant churches, but they preach a message of death and despair?
Right missZ.
you said, "Doctrine does not save, Jesus saves."
Brad took me over to an ET christian website and they were arguing about whether
a person could still get to heaven if they had an opportunity to be baptized but didn't.
The topic was "Does Baptism save?"
My answer was ialmost identical to yours
"Baptism doesn't save, God does."
Of course, it was ignored.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 09, 2013, 11:19:45 PM
Right missZ.
you said, "Doctrine does not save, Jesus saves."
Brad took me over to an ET christian website and they were arguing about whether
a person could still get to heaven if they had an opportunity to be baptized but didn't.
The topic was "Does Baptism save?"
My answer was ialmost identical to yours
"Baptism doesn't save, God does."
Of course, it was ignored.
Of course you were ignored, for these people have a spirit of religion, :punish: while you are a follower of the Christ. :cloud9:
You know, I feel sorry for the guy in the smilie, getting harangued and whacked in the back of the head until the end of time...kind of like hell.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 09, 2013, 11:19:45 PM
Right missZ.
you said, "Doctrine does not save, Jesus saves."
Brad took me over to an ET christian website and they were arguing about whether
a person could still get to heaven if they had an opportunity to be baptized but didn't.
The topic was "Does Baptism save?"
My answer was ialmost identical to yours
"Baptism doesn't save, God does."
Of course, it was ignored.
The balance is this. Baptism saves- but it has nothing to do with heaven, it was never about "heaven or hell" theology because there was no such thing in those days. It saves, as Peter said, "By the answer of a clear conscience" or as Paul said, "By faith in the operation of God". Baptism is simply one saving, healing, delivering step of may progressive saving healing steps laid out for the children of God as they are transformed into His image. This is the real problem, >>>The fundamental paradigm of ET theology infects every question of doctrine regarding salvation- but salvation is about deliverance from death and beig transformed into the image of Christ- there are may aspects to it, as we are healed from the consequences of sin and sanctified by the Spirit and grace takes us INTO THE NEW CREATION.
I'm assuming the post was your opinion EW.
IMO, Doesn't it boil down to whether one can have the spirit of God living in Him and
be in a relationship with the living God without being baptized?
I believe Baptism does not save but is symbolic of being saved. "Buried" under the waters (as was Jonah in the big fish and as Jesus in the grave) then, rising up out of the waters (as Jonah was "spewed out" and as Jesus came up ouit of the grave)
All those that die before "being saved" will be reconciled and this will not entail baptism.
Just like the rituals of the Jews prior to Jesus, this is, as Paul said, a shadow of what is to come.
That being said, I believe every believer should have the experience of Baptism and do it also because Jesus did it (and he didn't need it either) and He is our example.
Hey Ded, why didn't Jesus baptize anyone? The way I understand it John's ministry water baptizing Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but there cometh he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
(and Acts 19:3) John's baptism
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Did Paul drop the ball? 1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Just curious. :dsunny:
Paul was speaking of function, not of the efficacy of baptism :o)
Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
(Act 19:4-6)
IMO. Jesus didn't water baptize anyone because of pride - not his pride, but everyone else's.
"Oh yeah! Who baptized you?? I was Baptized by Jesus himself na-na-na-nana"
I think the same is true to a lesser effect with Paul. - "What!! You haven't been baptized by an apostle?? Oh man. it's the greatest! Talk about "sure of your salvation"
Besides Jesus baptized with the spirit and that was far more important.
I also want to make it clear that while I recommend baptism for the spiritual experience, I in no way endorse "leaning on, or trusting in" the experience or the person baptizing you rather than developing a relationship with the Lord.
Modern times, I don't think Billy Graham baptized others for these same reasons.
Being human, we tend to trust in "What we've done (Baptism, walk the aisle, come forward, publicly acknowledge, Holy communion, confession, Lord's supper, etc. - all "works in disguise")rather than what God has done" :Peace2:
Wow brother....that makes really good sense. :o)
Naturally.
very good points. I see it as symbology[John's baptism] the repenting and turning from a course of sin...
and a TURNING unto The Lamb that takes away the sin..Thus Prepare the Way......for the Lord..that
will show you how to walk in the Way[make straight paths for your feet]
Like a preparatory work of the Heart...to accept 'He who comes in the name of the Lord" who then
leads and anoints with the spirit.
John preached 'repentance"[heart motivated] a turning away from a course of error..and a turning unto
the Lord[heart motivated]
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 11, 2013, 05:06:13 AM
IMO. Jesus didn't water baptize anyone because of pride - not his pride, but everyone else's.
"Oh yeah! Who baptized you?? I was Baptized by Jesus himself na-na-na-nana"
I think the same is true to a lesser effect with Paul. - "What!! You haven't been baptized by an apostle?? Oh man. it's the greatest! Talk about "sure of your salvation"
Besides Jesus baptized with the spirit and that was far more important.
I also want to make it clear that while I recommend baptism for the spiritual experience, I in no way endorse "leaning on, or trusting in" the experience or the person baptizing you rather than developing a relationship with the Lord.
Modern times, I don't think Billy Graham baptized others for these same reasons.
Being human, we tend to trust in "What we've done (Baptism, walk the aisle, come forward, publicly acknowledge, Holy communion, confession, Lord's supper, etc. - all "works in disguise")rather than what God has done" :Peace2:
"I also want to make it clear that while I recommend baptism for the spiritual experience,...."
Luk 12:50 but I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I pressed till it may be completed!
Joh 1:33 and I did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water, He said to me, On whomsoever thou mayest see the Spirit coming down, and remaining on him,
this is he who is baptizing with the Holy Spirit; Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith,
one baptism, A spiritual experience....imo of course. :HeartThrob:
Right Micah. The "one Baptism" is not the one with water but the one from above with the Holy Spirit entering us and taking up residence. :friendstu:
Praise God we are not saved through works but by grace :dsunny:
I remember when I was first baptised, I was 14 and went to church mainly for the social side. I loved youth group, I loved my peers, I loved my youth group pastor, which is why I got baptised. I did not love God at the time, I was brought up with traditional Christianity and God to me was like some kind of distant great uncle that you have heard about, but never seen.
I use to pray in tongues, but only because I saw the people I loved doing the same. I look back and realise I had no idea, and I use to feel as though I had wasted my baptism.
However I feel God gave me a second chance, and there was a moment in my life where I came to God, and I was hungry for him, and he came upon on me with the holy spirit (For three days I felt nothing but perfect love and grace, I began to see people through Gods eyes) and my whole life was changed, I knew I was going to follow and serve the Lord for the rest of my life.
Jesus knew my water Baptism was a joke because my heart was not focused on him, But when he saw how hungry I was for him and the truth, I believe in that second I was baptised by the Holy Spirit. I did not need to be in water for it to happen, I remember picturing my past life, how bleak; dark and depressive and then I looked to God, and said aloud "God my way will never work, I choose your way" - then BAM I felt the Holy Spirit for the first time. :HeartThrob:
Beautiful! :dsunny: :thumbsup:
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 11, 2013, 09:45:59 PM
Right Micah. The "one Baptism" is not the one with water but the one from above with the Holy Spirit entering us and taking up residence. :friendstu:
I think the one baptism is into the life of Christ, the living water, and includes the baptism in water and the baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire. Paul said to John's disciples..... "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed". Personally, I believe the Holy Spirit resides in anyone who believes- but the "baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire" is something additional to that.
Eaglesway I do wish this was more clear cut in the scriptures and more evident in everyday life! I do wonder what exactly is the difference... you know, with the baptism of the Holy Ghost versus just "having" the Holy Ghost... it's a subject on which I have little to no understanding, but wish I did!
I have a Charismatic/Pentecostal background, but I never really accepted the teachings many of them gave about it. I believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is like a cup running over, or a fountain flowing out of a hole in the ground. It occurs periodically and is renewed frequently among those who gather in "one place in one accord"(Acts 2, Acts 4). I think it happens less frequently to isolated individuals- most everywhere I read of it in scripture it is a corporate experience.
In the old testament the fire of God enveloped the "acceptable" offering, that which was offered according to the instructions of the Lord and in the right attitude.
I believe this is described well in Romans 12: 1-3
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
(Rom 12:1-3)
The rest of the chapter goes on to speak about the manifestations of the Spirit in the body as a diversely gifted whole.
In like manner, Ephesians chapter four begins,
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
(Eph 4:1-7)
After describing the "acceptable offering", the rest of the chapter describes the manifestations/gifts/callings of the Spirit among the diversified whole of the body of Christ.
I don't believe the evidence of the baptism in the spirit with fire is speaking in tongues, altho I believe that can be among the evidences. The primary evidence is the love of God manifesting in the community of believers- the fruits of the spirit. The secondary evidences are prophetic insights into the current activities of God in the earth and among His people, Healing, Deliverance from sins and addictions, gifts of the spirit and evangelistic ministry, etc.
I my years as a believer, I have seen bogus religious imitations of the gifts of the spirit....but I have also been blessed to see and participate in some genuine outpourings of the Spirit and manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit- such as healing, deliverance, prophesy etc.
Awesome. I've never been a part of a body where the Spirit was abundantly present... I often daydream about it though. I have tasted of the gifts in a smaller scale and am so very thankful for it. I do long for the day that I get to experience these things while present with my brothers and sisters. Worshipping the Lord together, healing, prophecy, words of wisdom, words of knowledge being shared, and most of all LOVE....
Yea, definitely, most of all LOVE. It is written, "And the Lord worked with them confirming the word with signs and wonders". I believe God confirms the word, and the word is Jesus- His character, His divine nature, His generosity, His grace, His goodwill towards men- expressed thru the body. I also believe the reason we do not see the works of the Spirit much is not that God does not work that way anymore, it is the lack of love(because iniquity abounds the love of many grows cold) within the body of Christ, the lack of good will towards men(I was thirsty and you gave me no drink), and the lack of truth(doctrines like ET for instance). :2c:
I was just reading a book or article called "Has our tradition failed God". This one statement hit me so hard with truth I saved it to my clippings on my kindle. Here is the statement: "The doctrine of the restitution of all things is to the Church what the call of the Gentiles was to Israel". When I read this I sat back and thought about it a bit and it is so true that the Jews would not except the Gentiles as equals and the Church feels the same way today.
On the other hand, when God takes a drug addict or a whoremonger and saves him,
if he toes the line of doctrine, he will be esteemed as "greater than" they and asked to speak
at churches and conferences. The worse a sinner you were, the more modern christians want to hear your story
of salvation. :Peace2:
Yes eaglesway you could be right there.
Thank God we have the true hope... I don't know where I'd be without it!!
Blessed are those who do not see and believe...[those who die as drug addicts,whoremasters and are
saved..in the unseen realms]
mpls. yes..it has...this is the message of reconciliation...'THAT GOD WAS RECONCILING THE WORLD TO HIMSELF
AND NOT COUNTING MEN'S SINS AGAINST THEM" 2 COR5;19.....
THE CHURCHES WERE OVERCOME...BOTH ISRAEL AS A NATION AND BELIEVERS..GENTILES.
DANIEL..THE SAINTS WERE OVERCOME...AND I WILL TELL YOU WHY GOD ALLOWED THIS....
THAT NO FLESH SHOULD BOAST. AND JUST AS ISRAEL BEING BLINDED MEANT GRACE UNTO
THE GENTILES..THE GENTILE GOSPEL BEING OVERCOME MEANS GRACE TO ALL MEN[UNBELIEVERS]
FOR HE HAS CALLED US OUT OF THE OVERCOME CHURCHES[BABYLON] TO DECLARE THE SALVATION
OF ALL MEN.. FOR HE HAS BOUND ALL MEN OVER TO SIN..IN ORDER TO SHOW GRACE TO ALL
THERE SHALL BE NO 'CHURCH' BOASTING WHAT THEY HAVE DONE..SAYING 'THANK YOU THAT
I AM NOT LIKE THIS GUY OVER HERE'A SINNER'. ALL MEN ARE SINNERS AND ALL MEN ARE SAVED
OF GOD'S GRACE.
HE HAS SHOWN US STEP BY STEP 1...2...3
HE HAS SAID..AS ALL HAVE BORE THE IMAGE OF THE CORRUPTIBLE ONE SO TOO ALL SHALL BEAR
THE IMAGE OF THE INCORRUPTIBLE ONE.
SO THEN..EVEN THOUGH I MAY CONTEND FOR TRUTH WITH SOMEONE THAT MAY BE OVERCOME
OR IS NOT WHERE I AM AT SPIRITUAL..BE STILL IN UNBELIEF,CARNAL,BABE,CONFUSED.....I STILL CAN
NOT TAKE AWAY HIS SPIRITUAL INHERITANCE LAID UP FOR HIM OF GOD AND CHRIST..AND THOUGH
HE MAY APPEAR AS AN ENEMY FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOSPEL..ALL SHALL BE SAVED.
IT IS A GIFT WITHOUT REPENTANCE ON GOD'S PART...LAID UP FOR ALL MEN
Therefore, the Jews began persecuting Jesus[e] because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus responded to them, "My Father is still working, and I am working also." 18 This is why the Jews began trying all the more to kill Him: Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
By the seventh day God completed His work that He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work that He had done.
For the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and everything in them in six days; then He rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and declared it holy.
4 Therefore, while the promise to enter His rest remains, let us fear that none of you should miss it.[a] 2 For we also have received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard did not benefit them, since they were not united with those who heard it in faith 3 (for we who have believed enter the rest), in keeping with what[c] He has said:
So I swore in My anger,
they will not enter My rest.[d]
And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world, 4 for somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in this way:
And on the seventh day
God rested from all His works.[e]
5 Again, in that passage He says, They will never enter My rest.[f] 6 Since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again, He specifies a certain day—today—speaking through David after such a long time, as previously stated:
Today, if you hear His voice,
do not harden your hearts.[g]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God's people. 10 For the person who has entered His rest has rested from his own works, just as God did from His. 11 Let us then make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall into the same pattern of disobedience.
YOU KNOW dED2...WHEN iread your post it reminded something myfather said to me years ago....
when I was in a real legalistic church.[jw's] I become ill,was working a fulltime job and was married
to a man totally against jw's and suffered persecution from him continually[he used military mind control
techniques he learned in military to break my will to serve God an nearly drove me nuts in the process.]
well..I became seriously ill and was unable to attend all the meetings..and just could'nt bear up under it all
anymore. Physically or emotionaly. and I was at Sunday wt study and public talk..and the elder's wife said..
' oooh...3 Sundays in a row". I was telling my earthly father this..and he said..'well..it's a good thing
your flesh finally wore out..or they would still have ye yoked up like an ox turning the millstone..and they
only want you to do all those things that they can boast in your flesh" and he was soo right. And this is the same
thing you speak of in your post....
Thanks Sheila. When I first got dragged to the Lord, I heard testimony and speakers that had been rescued out of all sorts of evil practices and I almost wished more bad stuff had happened tome so my testimony would be "greater." The closer I got to the Lord, the more I realized in HIS eyes I was just as much a sinner as the others. The only "advantage" after that seemed that "He who is forgiven little loves little while he that is forgiven much, loves much.
Now it seems the more I love, the more I see how very much I've been forgiven.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on January 12, 2013, 05:13:49 PM
I was just reading a book or article called "Has our tradition failed God". This one statement hit me so hard with truth I saved it to my clippings on my kindle. Here is the statement: "The doctrine of the restitution of all things is to the Church what the call of the Gentiles was to Israel". When I read this I sat back and thought about it a bit and it is so true that the Jews would not except the Gentiles as equals and the Church feels the same way today.
The Church hates universal reconciliation because it minimizes the status of the Church as the be-all and end-all of Christianity. That is why we Tenties languish in the wilderness without churches, camp meetings, and all the rest.
The wilderness is a much needed refuge for many of us I think. :HeartThrob:
Indeed!
The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
--Isa 35:1
A lot of times people speak of the apostates in Babylon and call it "The Church." This is an example of the names of blasphemy (Rv 173,) names stolen from God and His people, and used deceptively. Both doctrinally and practically this mystical Mother is false. We who have been coming back to rebuild the temple are frowned upon with poisonous countenances, we are reviled and opposed because the false vine being assimilated into Babylon has fixed an idol in their hearts, an image of hatred and anger with an evil face that is supposed to never approve of the most of His own creation. Yet beyond that He is the one who keeps them captive to pleasure Him with suffering as He inflicts on them never ceasing, never ending torture. Intimacy with the true God, Whose end is mercy, Who delights in tender pity and loving kindness, has been changed into accommodation to other mediators. Perceiving His Self revelation in glory, directly led of His Spirit, specially when we meet, transforms us into the same image. But, instead of being the flesh of God in the earth, His Royal Priesthood to the rest of the world, the false brethren demand their enabling audiences submission unto an unscriptural elite.
My cup of wormwood overfloweth.
The seed sown in the wilderness will become the garden of the Lord.
A voice crying fron the wilderness.....
He makes the wilderness into a garden, and a desert into springs of water.....
I wonder how Miss Zoolander is going these days. It has been 2 years since she posted this thread? In those 2 years my wife and I continue to walk alone in the knowledge of God's great mercy and goodness, still being frowned upon, still being de-friended. One brother used to link to my other site on spiritual life, but took the link down because he said he "did not want his site polluted with Universalism." :dunno2:
Such is the cost of knowing God.
Quote from: Rhodes on September 17, 2014, 10:54:35 AM
I wonder how Miss Zoolander is going these days. It has been 2 years since she posted this thread? In those 2 years my wife and I continue to walk alone in the knowledge of God's great mercy and goodness, still being frowned upon, still being de-friended. One brother used to link to my other site on spiritual life, but took the link down because he said he "did not want his site polluted with Universalism." :dunno2:
Such is the cost of knowing God.
Dear Rhodes ,
Yes, forsaking all , to follow and to be found in Christ ,
I just believe most do not want to put God in a box , including the universalist
Any title has its pros and cons .
I have never found any other Forum or church whom can answer those ''deep questions of God , we all struggle and wrestle with ''
But by the Universalist camp and have went further than any other I have found ,
and even those sometimes are still leaving ''room to grow in truth and grace '' .
Who can Know except what Gods Spirit of Wisdom allows anyone to understand or stumble with ?
"why so frowned upon?" (they think what is being said is all roads/faiths lead to salvation)
this is why I want very badly to see a simple, brief answer for all such.. but it must be 100% true or it will not ring true to other's hearts and the circle will remain small.. (imo)
I know the perceived answer is 'hell is only short term' / agelasting - that has not clicked true in my spirit as a complete or sufficient answer
Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent you will die in your sins" It's assumed this means all hope is lost.... but does it? surely to rise still in your sins is not as joyful a resurrection as the first resurrection
["..and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." from Rev 20:4,5]
..but :sigh: I am not making much progress in communicating this vision of UR exploding (in a good way!) upon the world..
Quote from: marie glen on September 17, 2014, 06:48:52 PMJesus told the pharisees "unless you repent you will die in your sins" It's assumed this means all hope is lost.... but does it? surely to rise still in your sins is not as joyful a resurrection as the first resurrection
Jesus also told the pharisees that the prostitutes and tax-collectors would enter the Kingdom before they would. Entry delayed but not denied, and things are in balance. If we include everyone (all) in salvation, we should also include every relevant scripture which bears on a matter. You must look at EVERY tree to see the forest. Folks, the reason we are so scorned is that the ER and ED camps can only look at a few trees because they think there are no trees outside of their campsite. :punish:
I hope my metaphor is not too stretched... :dunno2:
Quote from: marie glen on September 17, 2014, 06:48:52 PM
"why so frowned upon?" (they think what is being said is all roads/faiths lead to salvation)
In a way they do. But most are massive detours :laugh:
They are listening to their Pharisees and Saducees, who love the high seats in the assemblies, and do not have time to listen to anyone who challenges their assumptions, which constitute the pedestals upon which they have placed themselves as the arbiters of truth and judgment.
They are afraid to incur eternal torment, or eternal destruction, with which they are threatened if they "open their ears" to listen to what the Spirit is saying through the scriptures.
They are more comfortable as judges than as ministers of reconciliation.
Quote from: misszoolander on December 18, 2012, 06:57:51 AM
Hello brothers and sisters in Christ.
I do not know about you, but speaking for myself, when I discovered US, it was like finally seeing color for the first time. I cried with joy, and worshiped God truly (not out of fear) for the first time.
After studying and researching and telling people about the "good news" I have noticed that we are probably more frowned upon then Muslims, Buddhists possibly even Satanists. I often look at debate forums, and we get attacked with lines like "Stop taking the bible out of contexts, and stop believing this evil doctrine which is spun from Satan himself."
I have to admit my heart sinks a bit, and I often to pray to Jesus to give me assurance that I am on the right path.
It makes me wonder why traditional Christians despise us so much? I mean we believe the same thing, and to simplify it the only difference is we believe all men will be saved. We get our revelations from the bible, so it is not like we are producing this doctrine out of thin air..
It just hurts when our fellow sisters and brothers accuse us of spreading "Satan's lies". I know that I love Jesus, and God allot more then I ever have, and I now worship him because he is so wonderful, not out of fear, I can not see how that comes from Satan? I still ask Jesus for guidance every day, surely he would not lead me into false paths.
Why do I feel condemned from my fellow Christians?! it makes my heart heavy.
That's exactly how I feel at times. Just this morning I read an article where a preacher went to a college and homosexual protestors were chanting "Jesus loves everybody" and the pastor said something along the lines of "God does not listen to the prayers of those who are living in sin." When I read the comments for that articles, they were talking about how our society rejects true preachers and true love is preaching the truth to all and that if the apostles and Steven preached a gospel of love/inclusiveness they wouldn't have been stoned to death
I was just having a discussion with my sister about this. We both questioned why can't these people see how contradictory their beliefs are. I def experience this feeling with others & it's frustrating & hurtful as I am human. We came to the conclusion that they can't see because that's where God means them to be, in His grand plan, we all have our roles to play from vessels of honor to vessels of dishonor & ultimately all things will work together for His good. So we decided, instead of focusing on why they don't understand, why they can't see, we should rejoice that someday they will. Maybe we shouldn't get so hoity toity about our revelation & their lack of because many of is were them before God led/dragged us here.
Quote from: rrich7 on October 07, 2014, 04:47:17 PM
I was just having a discussion with my sister about this. We both questioned why can't these people see how contradictory their beliefs are. I def experience this feeling with others & it's frustrating & hurtful as I am human. We came to the conclusion that they can't see because that's where God means them to be, in His grand plan, we all have our roles to play from vessels of honor to vessels of dishonor & ultimately all things will work together for His good. So we decided, instead of focusing on why they don't understand, why they can't see, we should rejoice that someday they will. Maybe we shouldn't get so hoity toity about our revelation & their lack of because many of is were them before God led/dragged us here.
....and I'm sure we too, are wrong about many things.. imo :smile:
Quote from: rrich7 on October 07, 2014, 04:47:17 PM
I was just having a discussion with my sister about this. We both questioned why can't these people see how contradictory their beliefs are. I def experience this feeling with others & it's frustrating & hurtful as I am human. We came to the conclusion that they can't see because that's where God means them to be, in His grand plan, we all have our roles to play from vessels of honor to vessels of dishonor & ultimately all things will work together for His good. So we decided, instead of focusing on why they don't understand, why they can't see, we should rejoice that someday they will. Maybe we shouldn't get so hoity toity about our revelation & their lack of because many of is were them before God led/dragged us here.
Exactly , one of the greatest powers of divine Love is forgiveness
and no man posses it on their own , For God is Love , Its only those whom have been forgiven much can love much
Luke 7 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"On account of this
, I say to you, that her many sins are forgiven her because she loved much,
but he who is forgiven a little loves a little."
I miss the miss zoolander , hope she is well , and may return , her nephew is a little darling , Devon He is beautiful , I have a grandson the same age 13 months I could not imagine such a loss .
love to all :HeartThrob:
He is beautiful
It truly astounds me how crafty Satan is. These people don't realize that Jesus says people will reject you if you preach the Good News. Now, they assume that because atheists reject them, that means they are on the right track, not realizing they are persecuting a even smaller minority. What they seem to forget in Jesus' day, was that it wasn't the street sinners that persecuted the apostles.c but it was the Church itself, and they do the same thing. I've come to realize. Universalists add nothing to the verses like religious folks do. Many times people say "We have to warn others of Hell" there was no urgency to warn the masses of Hell in the New Testament. I came across someone using Pascal's Wager to try and convert someone and immediately I thought of Jesus words: "You do not know what manner of spirit you are speaking".
I don't think there's any point in warning anybody about "hell" because it's something anybody who dies experiences including Christ after he was crucified. That's because "hell" is simply the unseen state of dead souls. So the dummies who warn folks about "hell" are warning them not to die like you have any control over that. We are "frowned upon," as you say, because truth is not popular in the world. That's why they killed Christ. Truth especially enrages the established world religious institution that controls its followers with fear of imaginary torture in fire forever. Those that operate that systematized deception and those that are deceived by it hate anybody who threatens their monopoly of salvation by works that empowers them. We should expect persecution when we speak the truth, and that is exactly what we get. Just try commenting on YouTube, Google+, or somewhere about the truth of scripture and see what happens. You'll get hit from the right by church folks and from the left by atheists. You're right about Satan being "crafty" because deception is his method of operation. That's why I think the church is Satan's most effective deception because it has the appearance of being God's institution, but it is evil to the core.
"For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light. It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness--whose consummation shall be according to their acts." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)
No, you are right there. It gets to the point where people think that as some stranger on the internet they can somehow sway people I to there beliefs. I don't usually think atheists have a good point, but this one did. One cannot simply change there entire mindset just by being told to. God can donor of course, but man cannot. What I constantly tell myself is that I cannot hope to honestly, sincerely love God when I believe he is going to torture others in Hell. I was taught to care and have compassion for other people. Hell was a stain on my life. Anytime I did something good, I questioned whether it was sincere or just a desperate attempt to prove my salvation by works. That is what this Hell doctrine breeds: When you are self critical and analytical like I am, you question if anything good you do is sincere or selfish. Generally, though you do get blasted by atheists and Christians alike. Most Universalits are accused of adding words when are they do is quote the verses as they are and explain them. if someone who believes in Hell can't use that verse to defend there doctrine, they'll just go to a different verse and say "but this verse says Hell is real so this verse has to be modified to fit with that belief". Therefore to them all doesn't mean all, but is only meant to refer to all of the elect even though the context doesn't suggest it.
And, if you show them that "Gehenna" was intentionally mistranslated as "hell" twelve times in the New Testament, then they have no way to show that "hell" even has anything to do with fire or is anything more than just the unseen state of dead souls because it is dying that is our fate not torture in fire forever.
I don't know how one is to provide proof of that. If you use the YLT, they will just claim it is corrupt and not listen to anything you say. I guess if you show them a Greek concordance, they'd be inclined to listen.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on November 10, 2014, 05:28:00 PM
I don't know how one is to provide proof of that. If you use the YLT, they will just claim it is corrupt and not listen to anything you say. I guess if you show them a Greek concordance, they'd be inclined to listen.
At some point, when a person is not ready to accept facts, they will willfully deny them,no matter what you do. But unless they have a scripture that says "Gehenna represents hell" then their beliefs are a matter of conjecture. Nobody is bound to believe their conjecture, and we are free to study the scripture instead.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on November 10, 2014, 05:28:00 PM
I don't know how one is to provide proof of that. If you use the YLT, they will just claim it is corrupt and not listen to anything you say. I guess if you show them a Greek concordance, they'd be inclined to listen.
Check out the attachment, bro.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2014, 04:02:09 PM
And, if you show them that "Gehenna" was intentionally mistranslated as "hell" twelve times in the New Testament, then they have no way to show that "hell" even has anything to do with fire or is anything more than just the unseen state of dead souls because it is dying that is our fate not torture in fire forever.
Gehenna had a lot to do with fire. sheol does not. But we will pace a lot of weight on anything that is in the scriptures and gehenna is there 12 times and there is also Matthew 18:8 and 25:41 where Jesus references being cast into "aionian pur" or as they translate it, "eternal fire", which we kno is age-during fire. Also in revelations there is the lake of fire and brimstone, brimstone being "theon"(godfire).
So, in my opinion, you cannot get away from the fire, and it is not the most effective way to win adversaries to the true gospel of the salvation of all.
IMO you have to fight fire WITH fire, not denying fire or torment per say, but rather showing that the nature of the fire is purifying, and the duration not eternal.
I personally begin with "Our God is a consuming fire" and "God is light", explaining that light is fire to darkness and that is what is being consumed in Gehenna/the lake of fire/hell. I take them to Revelations 2:18 and 19:12 showing that Jesus eyes are as flames of fire, then to Heb4:12,13 that "all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do" and explain eternal judgment in terms of 1 Cor 4:5
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but
wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.
and
and Roman's 2.....
their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
So I fight fire with fire, concentrating on the nature of fire as a consumer of darkness and a purifying agent of limited duration.
In some of the main "fire" justifications for hell.....
Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Every grain of wheat is a soft seed encased in hard chaff. The grains are beaten with the threshing fork, to separate the wheat from the chaff. This verse has nothing to do with eternal torment or hell but speaks instead of the righteous discipline by which the Lord separates the seed from the chaff in every individual kernel, gathering the seeds and then destroying the hard shell of chaff- the waste material, with unquenchable fire.
Unquenchable does not mean it burns forever. Unquenchable means you, the seed, cannot put it out. It will burn until all the chaff is gone out of your life.
:2c:
I think I understand the purifying fire.
The refining fire like that of a smelter.
Is there any correcting fire?
If someone is alive the correction has purpose, they can change.
Is there any fire in this age or the next that is punitive or retributive ?
Quote from: dajomaco on November 10, 2014, 10:08:48 PM
I think I understand the purifying fire.
The refining fire like that of a smelter.
Is there any correcting fire?
For me refining equals correcting.
Refining is the process of removing impurities called dross from the silver or gold.
Correction is the process of removing impurities called sin from a person.
QuoteIf someone is alive the correction has purpose, they can change.
Is there any fire in this age or the next that is punitive or retributive ?
IF there is a punitive fire it will be for example a fire that burns down a city.
When relating to persons Jesus always used the word correction. Obviously He spoke for the natural and spiritual.
I don't think there is any fire in the age to come that is retributive, altho when you read of Gog and Magog and the end of the thousand years, in John's Apocalypse, I wouldn't argue with someone who called that, or the fire that fell on Sodom and Gomorah retributive. Certainly the lake of fire is corrective, but when I read Jesus' words "depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels" or paul's words in 2 Thess
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting(olam/aionios) destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
I can see some retribution in there, a recompense related directly to ones deeds and attitudes toward God, His children and the helpless.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 10, 2014, 10:08:48 PM
I think I understand the purifying fire.
The refining fire like that of a smelter.
Is there any correcting fire?
If someone is alive the correction has purpose, they can change.
Is there any fire in this age or the next that is punitive or retributive ?
I think a judgment of the nations, figuratively the sheep and the goats, will take place at the beginning of the next eon, a thousand years before the great white throne judgment, and the result will be "fire eonian," figuratively signifying severe trial, for the nations who were adversarial toward Israel. The purpose is for correction.
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (Matthew 25:46)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
what fire did Jesus bring to the earth in Luke 12 :49 to create the divisions between the Law and Grace ?
His Baptism , is the same baptism we have to undergo also to separate the law from grace
when the Law is in effect by force many become self righteous and prideful and the man of sin in them becomes exposed
this one has to be taken out of the way , by the fire of His breath /coming
for the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE are the corrective , fiery trials in a Lake that death under the Fiery law , the false prophet / liars and beast carnal in nature are already in
and satan last because HE IS THE ACCUSER OF THE BRETHREN !! same as a murderer from the start and many under the false religion Babylon are accusing and sending to torment as they judge are being judged now !!
while the new creature in Christ are given the new heavens and earth Rev 21 read it
Rev 20 please know this is happening now even though we dont see this with the natural eye
the Kingdoms of this world are failing and the Kingdom of God is being built as we speak
JUDGEMENT BEGINS IN THE HOUSE OF GOD !! 1Peter 4
16but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God;
and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?
the godless man and sinner are burning in the fire !! many do not understand we all have the evil and good mixture in them , its coming out of the old and into the new that is the works of God ,
is everyone doomed to misery and only a few be saved ? the elect are used by God for one purpose and that is to get the goodnews of the gospel spread to all the ends of the earth our earth and than everyone else we are His witnesses in the earth , just as the Holy Spirit this great cloud are His witnesses in heaven already!!
19 So those who suffer ·as God wants [or because God has allowed it; L according to the will of God] should trust their souls to the faithful Creator as they continue to do what is ·right [good].
No one should under-estimate the degree to which the enemy fights the outbreak of truth and grace.
Martyrdoms through out history have shown the price that truth must pay for its shining.
There should be no surprise that we are frowned upon.
Our gospel takes the profit out of theirs, relieves the fear and the insanity of a God of eternal torment.
It is the devil who has promoted these lies, and he don't let go easy :o)
2 Cor 4:4 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; 8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 11, 2014, 07:19:23 PM
No one should under-estimate the degree to which the enemy fights the outbreak of truth and grace.
Martyrdoms through out history have shown the price that truth must pay for its shining.
There should be no surprise that we are frowned upon.
Our gospel takes the profit out of theirs, relieves the fear and the insanity of a God of eternal torment.
It is the devil who has promoted these lies, and he don't let go easy :o)
2 Cor 4:4 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; 8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
precious in the sight of the Lord are the death of His saints / holy ones!!! to me its the better resurrections!! Hebrews 11 ;35
Paul said he died daily to getting out the good news of the gospel for all to hear!
Psalm 116 Expanded Bible (EXB)
Thanksgiving for Escaping Death
116 I love the Lord,
because he ·listens to my prayers for help [L hears/or heard my voice, my prayer of supplication].
2 He ·paid attention [L extends his ear] to me,
so I will ·call to him for help [call; pray] ·as long as I live [L in my days].
3 The ·ropes [cords] of death ·bound [encompass] me,
and the ·fear [hardship; distress] of ·the grave [L Sheol; C the grave or the underworld] ·took hold of [reached; found] me.
I ·was troubled and sad [L found distress and sadness].
4 Then I ·called out [prayed in] the name of the Lord.
I said, "Please, Lord, ·save [rescue] me!"
5 The Lord is ·kind [gracious] and ·does what is right [righteous];
our God is ·merciful [compassionate; Ex. 34:6–7].
6 The Lord ·watches over [keeps; guards] the ·foolish [immature; simpleminded];
when I was ·helpless [brought low], he ·saved me [gave me victory].
7 I said to myself, "·Relax [L Return, my soul/life to your rest],
because the Lord ·takes care of you [treats you well]."
8 Lord, you ·saved [rescued] me from death.
·You stopped my eyes from crying [L ...and my eyes from tears];
·you kept me from being defeated [L ...my feet from stumbling].
9 So I will walk ·with [before; in the presence of] the Lord
in the land of the living [C as opposed to the grave].
10 I ·believed [trusted], so I said,
"I am ·completely ruined [afflicted greatly; 2 Cor. 4:13]."
11 In my ·distress [worry] I said,
"All people are liars [Rom. 3:4]."
12 What can I ·give [L return to] the Lord
for all the ·good things [benefits] he has given to me?
13 I will lift up the cup of salvation,
and I will pray ·to [L in the name of] the Lord.
14 I will ·give the Lord what I promised [pay my vow to the Lord]
in front of all his people.
15 The death of ·one that belongs to the Lord [his loyal ones/saints]
is precious in his ·sight [L eyes].
16 Lord, I am your servant; I am your servant and the son of your female servant.
You have ·freed me from [loosened] my chains.
17 I will give you ·an offering to show thanks to you [a thanksgiving offering],
and I will pray ·to [L in the name of] the Lord.
18 I will ·give the Lord what I promised [pay my vow to the Lord]
in front of all his people,
19 in the ·Temple courtyards [L courtyards of the house of the Lord]
in your midst, Jerusalem.
Praise the Lord!
Quote from: eaglesway on November 10, 2014, 08:07:02 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2014, 04:02:09 PM
And, if you show them that "Gehenna" was intentionally mistranslated as "hell" twelve times in the New Testament, then they have no way to show that "hell" even has anything to do with fire or is anything more than just the unseen state of dead souls because it is dying that is our fate not torture in fire forever.
Gehenna had a lot to do with fire. sheol does not. But we will pace a lot of weight on anything that is in the scriptures and gehenna is there 12 times and there is also Matthew 18:8 and 25:41 where Jesus references being cast into "aionian pur" or as they translate it, "eternal fire", which we kno is age-during fire. Also in revelations there is the lake of fire and brimstone, brimstone being "theon"(godfire).
So, in my opinion, you cannot get away from the fire, and it is not the most effective way to win adversaries to the true gospel of the salvation of all.
IMO you have to fight fire WITH fire, not denying fire or torment per say, but rather showing that the nature of the fire is purifying, and the duration not eternal.
I personally begin with "Our God is a consuming fire" and "God is light", explaining that light is fire to darkness and that is what is being consumed in Gehenna/the lake of fire/hell. I take them to Revelations 2:18 and 19:12 showing that Jesus eyes are as flames of fire, then to Heb4:12,13 that "all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do" and explain eternal judgment in terms of 1 Cor 4:5
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.
and
and Roman's 2.....their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
So I fight fire with fire, concentrating on the nature of fire as a consumer of darkness and a purifying agent of limited duration.
In some of the main "fire" justifications for hell.....
Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Every grain of wheat is a soft seed encased in hard chaff. The grains are beaten with the threshing fork, to separate the wheat from the chaff. This verse has nothing to do with eternal torment or hell but speaks instead of the righteous discipline by which the Lord separates the seed from the chaff in every individual kernel, gathering the seeds and then destroying the hard shell of chaff- the waste material, with unquenchable fire.
Unquenchable does not mean it burns forever. Unquenchable means you, the seed, cannot put it out. It will burn until all the chaff is gone out of your life.
:2c:
I think "Gehenna" should be explained for what it actually is, was, and will be used for, and it should be made clear that is not "hell" which has no association with fire at all unless you count forgery in the translation of scripture or the parable Christ used to turn the Pharisees' false teachings against them.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html
I agree that gehenna is not hell, that in fact there is no hell, but gehenna was a place of burning, so I personally believe that explaining what the fire of God is, and applying that to the verses which obviously connect flames with kolassis is better than denying its existence, or taking an emphatic stand against scriptures that are there in the mouth of the Lord. Our interpretation of fire is clearly different, but it doesnt prevent our both being assured that all will be reconciled.