Heaven, Yes...Hell, No

[eaglesway]

.."we shall be like him for we shall see (understand) him as he is.." :smile:

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

"...we shall be like Him..." just separates my head from my shoulders.  It is so much more mind-blowing than "the just shall live by faith" which sparked the protestant reformation.

Amen. Transformation is the core issue of the entire word of God, imo. That we will be like Him..we are the first fruits. That the whole creation will be restored, we are predestined to be conformed to His image. As ambassadors, bearing the precious seed, "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and he has entrusted us with the ministry of reconciliation".

Now all these things are of God. :o)

[Ross]

.."we shall be like him for we shall see (understand) him as he is.." :smile:

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

"...we shall be like Him..." just separates my head from my shoulders.  It is so much more mind-blowing than "the just shall live by faith" which sparked the protestant reformation.

Amen. Transformation is the core issue of the entire word of God, imo. That we will be like Him..we are the first fruits. That the whole creation will be restored, we are predestined to be conformed to His image. As ambassadors, bearing the precious seed, "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and he has entrusted us with the ministry of reconciliation".

Now all these things are of God. :o)

:thumbsup: The proverbial nutshell.

[Lazarus Short]

The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians

Again, the word "Hell" is not to be seen here, and "Hades" is only found as a footnote to 15:55, where it is rendered "grave" in the text.  This may be a short chapter...

Paul brings up fire in Chapter 3:  "Now if any man build upon this foundation [Jesus Christ] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble...it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  If any man's work abide (footnoted as "endures") which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by [footnoted as "through"] fire." (verses 11-15)  Can this really be any clearer?  We are not burned, but saved, at least so it seems to me what Paul is saying.  It is our works that are burned, or will be burned – the wood, hay, and stubble.  What do these represent?  Paul says, in verse 11, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."  Given this foundation, then, men build on it things which endure, or things which do not.  These would not be material, but surely they are the Fruits of the Spirit, of which He spoke.  Paul enumerates them in Galatians 5:22 as     love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.  These are the gold, silver and precious stones, which will endure the fire.  In 5:19-20, Paul lists the wood, hay and stubble:  "...Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like..."  These do get burned up, these Tares.  Can you begin to see that those who are tossed into the Lake of Fire are not burned up, but only their works?  Yes, it is the Second Death, and when we read of that in the Revelation, it sounds very final, but it is not.  We shall explain in due time.

In Chapter 5, Paul instructs the church at Corinth, "To deliver such an one [heinous sinner] unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh..."  Is that to send him to Hell?  No:  "...that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (verse 5)  Hell is not mentioned here, and I see no reason to think the recommended action takes place on any other place than the Earth.

We see the fruits of the Spirit again in Chapter 6, along with loss:  "Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."  (verses 9-10)  Paul does not state that such people go to Hell.  Given what we covered in Chapter 3, I insist that these types suffer the loss of their wood, hay, stubble, chaff and tares, and with that, the reward of inheritance in the kingdom.  Think of any kingdom in this world – does every resident have the right to inherit?  No, only those of the family of the king have that right.  Now, those who become Sons and Daughters of God by adoption, also become members of the family of the King.  They have the right to inherit in the Kingdom of God, but this other group (at best) will be the commoners of that Kingdom.

When Paul says, in 7:9, that "...it is better to marry than to burn.," remember that "burn" is footnoted as "burn with passion."  There are no points for Hell here.

I am not much into so-called proof texts, but we have this in Chapter 15:  "...since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God...he [Christ] must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (verses 21-26)  It seems Paul is outlining three resurrections:
1.  Jesus the Christ, along with those few in Jerusalem who were raised at His death, as recorded by Matthew.

2.  Those who belong to Jesus the Christ (the believers) at His Second Coming.

3.  All the rest of humanity, after Jesus the Christ has overcome all enemies (put under His feet), including death.

Interestingly, the Law given to Moses connects three harvests with three feasts – barley with Passover, wheat with Pentecost, and grapes with Tabernacles.  I won't go into this in detail, but note that barley is easy to thresh, wheat requires more work, but is gathered into the barn (unlike tares), and grapes must be stomped and pressed.  Think of what the Revelation says about God's wrath and the winepress - it will be far better to be in one of the first two resurrections! 

Lastly, the last resurrection takes place after Death is destroyed.  Looking ahead, for all these things connect, the Revelation tells us that at some point in time, Death and Hell (footnoted as "Hades," so it could/should be grave/sheol) are thrown into the Lake of Fire.  We now know from I Corinthians 15:26 that Death is destroyed, so I'm thinking the destruction takes place when Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  What this means is that afterward, no one can still be dead and/or in Hell, right?  It also means that the Lake of Fire cannot be Hell, and that the doctrine of an eternal Hell cannot possibly be true.  There, proved.

Moving on just a bit, be aware that the passage above speaks of a time far ahead of anything in the Revelation, the "end," when Jesus "...shall have put down all rule and all authority and power...then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him...that God may be all in all." (verses 24 & 28)  As I asked above, if God is to become All in all, and the verses just quoted say so, then how can ANYONE still be dead and/or in Hell?  Nope, it is simply not possible, but I have yet a few nails to pound into Hell's coffin...

As Paul winds up Chapter 15, he says, "...the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality...Death is swallowed up in victory.  O death, where is thy sting?  O grave, where is thy victory?" (verses 52-55)  This is for believers, the second resurrection, and we see it as following the Law of the Jubilee – the trumpet sounds and all go free to their inheritance. (Leviticus 25:8-13)  Those in the third resurrection will not inherit, I'm guessing.

Well, it was not a short chapter, but one that really begins to lay the Hell theory to rest.  In this epistle, I have noticed that "judgment" is often replaced with the more loaded "condemnation" and "damnation."  Be aware of such tricks, still operating in an epistle where Hell cannot be found.

[Lazarus Short]

The Second Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians

Hell and Hades are not mentioned in this epistle either.  We find little of interest until Chapter 10:  "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God..." (verses 4-5)  Now if we think of Hades and Hell as theories, with all their baggage, both emotional and intellectual, it becomes easier to view them as strongholds.  I believe an unbiased look at the proof and evidence proves that this stronghold's props and foundations are rather shaky.  Further, we can see the works of Dante, Milton and Baxter for what they are:  literature, fiction, imaginations, not the Word of God.  Even with the first two being epic poetry, they are still just works of imagination - fiction, literature – impressive, but not founts of Truth.  Given what we have seen, the Hell doctrine should be viewed as a sort of theological graffiti.

There is no Hell, then, in II Corinthians, but ah, a short chapter this time.

[marie glen]

    :thumbsup: thank you Lazarus for this study and thread.. I'm a little behind in the reading but I have every intention of catching up.. It's a very good lesson and learning! And when I tell someone what a fallacy the theory is, my stance/the foundation will be that much more solid.. The more I know what I'm talking about the happier i am.. listeners may not always take me/us serious, so the more solid we know.. the better! :thumbsup:

(I hope the Spirit will guide you when you get to Revelation..  :Pray: )   :Peace2:

[Lazarus Short]

Marie, you may have noticed that I have taken on a more aggressive tone in the New Testament.  I feel it is justified, and I'm thinking the Revelation will be the Hell Theory's last stand.  How do you like me calling Hell "theological graffiti"?  I'm thinking more and more that Hell is like something rude you might find scrawled in a restroom stall. :doh:

[darryl]

Marie, you may have noticed that I have taken on a more aggressive tone in the New Testament.  I feel it is justified, and I'm thinking the Revelation will be the Hell Theory's last stand.  How do you like me calling Hell "theological graffiti"?  I'm thinking more and more that Hell is like something rude you might find scrawled in a restroom stall. :doh:

I have been doing a similar study. Please tell me..do you believe, not in a fiery hell, but a corrective or chastisement type process that takes place after death, for unbelievers ?..many URers do.

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, I lean that way.  The corrective process is likened to burning off the dross, chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble, but its exact nature is more spiritual, I think.  I do think that the unbelievers will suffer loss, mainly the loss of the right to be heirs of the Kingdom, and to be full members of the family of God.

[Lazarus Short]

The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Galatians

Hell is quickly in trouble, for Paul says, "...though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed [anathema]." (1:8)  Have we seen that Hell, as preached today, was a part of Old Testament belief?  Have we seen that any of the Gospels set forth any Hell doctrine?  Have we seen Hell promoted in any epistle?  No, we have not.  We must assume, then, that Paul is not thinking of Hell as part of "that which we have preached unto you."  On the other hand, since Paul never preached Hell, it just might be one of those other gospels.  Good news?  No, it would not have been good news at all, and still isn't.

In 5:14, Paul reminds his readers of what Jesus had said before:  "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."  Surely, a God Who instructs us so follows the same principle – does He love us enough to refrain sending anyone to Hell?  Given what we have so far, we an answer YES!  We know this because He loved us enough to send His Son, Jesus the Christ.  For His part, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified Him, when He could have asked His Father to punish them, and I won't say by sending them to Hell, for it seems not to exist.  Can you really think of a worse crime in the eyes of God than to murder His Son?  No, I can't either...so the rest must be forgiven as well.  It just makes sense, in a short epistle where Hell cannot be found.

[darryl]

Yes, I lean that way.  The corrective process is likened to burning off the dross, chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble, but its exact nature is more spiritual, I think.  I do think that the unbelievers will suffer loss, mainly the loss of the right to be heirs of the Kingdom, and to be full members of the family of God.

yes, I think so too...it seems some unbelievers, such as the beast and false prophet of Revelation, will suffer worse than others...their 'examination' seems to go on 'into the ages of the ages'.Let us trust the grace of God is such that the corrective process for most will be mercifully shortened and will not go on 'into the ages of the ages'.

Ultimately, we can be confident this restorative process will take place for all...look at Ezekiel 16:53 ►

New International Version
"'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

Context
Judgment on Jerusalem
...53"Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, 54in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. 55"Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state....

God will even restore the fortunes of that most wicked of places, Sodom..who can doubt He will also restore the fortunes of those He corrects/ chastises ?. :dsunny:

[marie glen]

Marie, you may have noticed that I have taken on a more aggressive tone in the New Testament.  I feel it is justified, and I'm thinking the Revelation will be the Hell Theory's last stand.  How do you like me calling Hell "theological graffiti"?  I'm thinking more and more that Hell is like something rude you might find scrawled in a restroom stall. :doh:

                  :faint:  Amen!!   I'm thinking that is very accurate!!     ..scrawled perhaps in anger and petulance.. an 'i hate you' manifesting on the bathroom wall..

[Lazarus Short]

The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Ephesians

Early on, Paul mentions this, in 1:10:  "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he [Jesus] might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him."  Now, the fullness of times may be far, far in the future, but that is up to God.  What I want the reader to notice is "gather together in one ALL things in Christ."  [emphasis added]  Paul makes no exception for anyone – it is all things in heaven and on earth.  No one is relegated to Hell, no, all are gathered in Christ, the same Christ Who asked His Father to forgive the worst kind of sinners.  "ALL things gathered together" here is another fail for the Hell Theory.

Paul speaks of Jesus in Chapter 4:  "...WHEN HE ASCENDED UP ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE...(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?" (verses 8-9)  Now there is no reason to think that this captivity is Hell, for unless you assume it, it is not there.  Our servitude to sin is enough to fill the bill, is it not?  In the same way, the phrase "the lower parts of the earth," is fulfilled by the tomb in which Jesus spent three days and nights – there is no need to assume He went to Hell unless you already assume Hell exists.  What Paul says in verse 14 is very telling:  "...we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive."  I have pointed out a number of times where the text of this Book has been altered in translation, by sleight, by trickery, by cunning craftiness:

A neutral "judgment" was replaced by the more fearsome words "condemnation" and "damnation."

To reinforce that, "age" was replaced by "world," to veil God's plan for heaven and earth over long ages.  With "world" in place, it was easy for the church to serve as gatekeeper to the next "world."

Pagan words such as "Hades" and "Hell" were brought in, again confusing the Truth about man's fate after death.

God's Name was diminished to "LORD," while pagan gods got their unearned due.

I'm sure there are things I've missed, but as Jesus said, we need to be as wise as serpents, and not be taken in by such trickery.

In 5:5, Paul reminds the readers of his epistle that, "...no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolator, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."  A lot of people who already have Hell as a construct on the foundation of Christ, assume that these nasty folks go to Hell.  As we have shown over and over, Hell is uncreated, unstressed, unpreached, and unproven in the pages of this Book.  I believe the Bible is a Reference Standard of Truth, and the Hell Theory just does not make the cut.  This means that the doctrine of Hell is just one more piece of wood, hay or stubble to be burned off, and the doctrine's follower to suffer loss, along with the miserable company of verse 5, who will all suffer loss, but be saved as through fire, as the Bible says.  No doubt, they will be raised in the last resurrection, as the grape harvest, the grapes of wrath, but they will lose the right of any inheritance in the Kingdom, and probably more besides.  Read 5:5 again – it does NOT say these folks go to Hell – that is an overlay, an assumption.  Do you not think here of what Jesus said about the splinter and the beam?  We should not think to judge the 5:5 crowd, for our judgment may come back on us if we think they are to sent to Hell...not that we will, either.

Neither Hell nor Hades are to be found in Ephesians.

[Lazarus Short]

The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Philippians

"Perdition" shows up in 1:28, but there is no reason to think it has anything to do with Hell.  I seems to refer to the adversaries of the Good News, and their expectation that the followers of Jesus will be

In 2:10, Paul tells us, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth."  There is no reason to think he is referring to Hell here, but only to those in the grave, who will bow the knee in the future, just like those now alive "in earth."

At 3:14, Paul refers to a prize:  "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."  What is this prize?  Backtrack to verse 11:  "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead."  To be in the resurrection of the believers – a worthy goal!  However, notice that unlike the modern "fire insurance" preachers who stress Hell-avoidance, Paul has no concern for any possibility of ending up in such a place.

Chapter 3 ends with an answer to those who limit God, Father and/or Son, by ideas such as Hell being final (no exit), or that we place ourselves there, and close the proverbial door.  Paul speaks of God's power to Glorify our carnal bodies, "...according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (verse 21)  So, Jesus is able to subdue ALL things, but will He?  Yes, look at II Peter 3:9 – "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."  There you have it – Jesus is able and Jesus is willing.  What can we add to that?  Salvation is looking like a done deal, even if the process of salvation is not finished yet. 

Given able and willing, we can say with Paul, "Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice."  (4:4)

Another Pauline letter closes without Hades or Hell, but with much said of joy and love.

[marie glen]

still behind in my reading.. but was reflecting today of John the Baptist saying the ax is laid to the root of the trees and trees not bearing fruit will be thrown to the fire.. how E.D. assumes this is 'hell' but really, isn't it more closely about the nation and 70 a.d.?  (and isn't that more in line with how the prophets spoke warnings? but now 'they' preach illogical and hateful hellfire, alienating ppl from God's love)

I've also been thinking lately how in both the hebrew and the greek it seems more, to me, like the thinking was more present oriented.. (example "be filled with the spirit" vs "be being[/i] filled..") And there was no clearly focused U.R. because it was simply known, to believe is to have life.. with no reference to after death all hope is lost / no chance of repentance,changing course.. Just Messiah = life, and Messiah = savior of the world..

Also was thinking, in the torah, no hell; national judgments were the prophet's preaching(s).. and the baptist, again national.. Jesus didn't teach 'hell' - 'gehenna' gone into/easily explained.. no hell in Peter's preaching at the opening of the 'church age'; Paul didn't preach it (in Acts).. James didn't write it; Paul didn't write it in his letters.. neither did Peter.. nor John..
                  :2thumbs: this thread makes ya think..!

[darryl]

I am currently wrestling with the 'torment' passages in Revelation..i.e. 'smoke of their torment goes up to 'the ages of the ages'...the Devil, Beast and False Prophet tormented' into the 'ages of the ages'...seems like a very long time...the word for 'torment' comes from 'touchstone'..anyway, will keep you posted. :Chinscratch:

[darryl]

Paul didn't write it in his letters.. neither did Peter.. nor John..
                  :2thumbs: this thread makes ya think..!

hmmm, John talks about 'torment'  in Revelation..in connection with those accepting the 'mark' and the unholy trinity tormented in the Lake of Fire 'into the ages of the ages'...if the false prophet and Beast are indeed human, John seems to be saying their 'examination' will last an incredibly long time...hmmm, but I'm currently wrestling these 'difficult' passages.

It's interesting to do a word study on 'torment'(Greek ='basanos')

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 928: βασανίζω

βασανίζω: (imperfect ἐβασάνιζον); 1 aorist ἐβασανισα; passive (present βασανίζομαι); 1 aorist ἐβασανίσθην; 1 future βασανισθήσομαι; (βάσανος);
1. properly, to test (metals) by the touchstone.

2. to question by applying torture.

3. to torture (2 Macc. 7:13); hence,

4. universally, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment: τινα, Matthew 8:29; Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; 2 Peter 2:8; Revelation 11:10; passively, Matthew 8:6; Revelation 9:5; Revelation 20:10; of the pains of childbirth, Revelation 12:2 (cf. Anthol. 2, p. 205, Jacobs edition); with ἐν and the dative of the material in which one is tormented, Revelation 14:10.

5. Passive to be harassed, distressed; of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind, Mark 6:48; of a ship tossed by the waves, Matthew 14:24. (In Greek writings from Herodotus down. Often in O. T. Apocrypha.)

[marie glen]

    :Chinscratch: "greater condemnation" (judgment..) - If 'hell' of E.D. persuasion is the destination of all those not having been reconciled to God during their brief life before dying.. how then does one receive "greater damnation" whether individual or nation/city? Would the flames burn hotter? According to the nature of fire, I can't see thAt..

...branches not on the vine, wither and are gathered to be used as fuel.. (fuel as metaphor / prophecy? 70a.d.... :Chinscratch: and parallel to the letters to the Asia Minor churches?... warning-fell away from their first love.. fiery destruction.. now are Muslim lands.. and parallel goats gathered to armageddon, imo that is, in "day of the LORD"?)

"For he that is dead is freed from sin."  Paul follows this up at the end of the chapter with "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (verse 23)  Now if you remember what I said earlier about the Jubilee, you know that if we think of sin as our master, and Paul does mention us becoming slaves to sin, then at the start of the Jubilee, we go free, back to our inheritance.

:mshock: wow, I never have thought or read of that.. very intriguing! And Jubilee was SO important to Yahweh! that Israel not forsake it..
Oh yes.. Jubilee will be for all! All in His good timing and order..

"…though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed [anathema]." (1:8)  Have we seen that Hell, as preached today, was a part of Old Testament belief?  Have we seen that any of the Gospels set forth any Hell doctrine?  Have we seen Hell promoted in any epistle?  No, we have not.  We must assume, then, that Paul is not thinking of Hell as part of "that which we have preached unto you."  On the other hand, since Paul never preached Hell, it just might be one of those other gospels.  Good news?  No, it would not have been good news at all, and still isn't.

you know.. I've wondered that very thing also..

I am currently wrestling with the 'torment' passages in Revelation..i.e. 'smoke of their torment goes up to 'the ages of the ages'...the Devil, Beast and False Prophet tormented' into the 'ages of the ages'...seems like a very long time...the word for 'torment' comes from 'touchstone'..anyway, will keep you posted. :Chinscratch:

I've been thinking for a while now that it's the smoke of torment (of fiery regret, burning shame, etc, imo) and that the smoke is metaphor for the memory of... shall remain with us.. all watchers.. (learners) memory of will rise up 'for ever'.. as a foundational lesson that one cannot wander from God who is life (and perfection, imperfection being the opposite of life)

and for a long time have thought the beast (world beast/body) and the false prophet/teacher/teaching are not individuals but institutions of man active at the time of Jesus' return... :smile: :Peace2:

[Lazarus Short]

The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Colossians

The first chapter of Matthew stated that the Messiah would be named Jesus (footnoted as 'Literally "Saviour"') for He would save His people from their sins, not from Hell.  Years later, Paul in this letter, says the same, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins..." (1:14)  Again, Hell is not mentioned, so that must not be part of Jesus' mission or purpose.  Let's get down to it – if Hell does not exist, saving people from it is a fool's errand.  Jesus was and is no fool, so if He did not pursue saving from Hell, and failed to teach His disciples to save from Hell, concluding that there is no Hell is just intelligent and rational.  Now if Hell does exist, and God both cares not who goes there, and has failed to tell us of it, we're going to have a problem with the idea that God and Jesus are good, loving and truthful.  It is very difficult to make a case for God and Jesus being bad, hateful liars.  Do you know many Christians who would be willing to say it?  Would it be sacrilege or blasphemy?  I don't know, but it would not fly in any church I know of.  The conclusion must be then, that Hell does not exist in a Cosmos created by a God Who said, "Let us reason together..." (Isaiah 1:18)

The idea of 1:14 is expanded on in verses 19 and 20:  "For it pleased the Father...having made peace through the blood of his [Jesus'] cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth or things in heaven."  Do you see that "all things" here means everything in the created Cosmos?  Yes, it would cover everything in Genesis 1 and 2, neither of which mention Hell.

Paul winds up Chapter 1 with, "...warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." (verse 28)  So, what happens to those not presentable as perfect?  It's a fair question, and many would answer that they go to Hell, but what about "every man in his own order"?  Let's not forget too quickly what Paul told us in I Corinthians 15 about the End, and how Death would be the last enemy to be conquered.  If a time comes when death is no more, those who are dead MUST be resurrected, and if God is then to All in all, these "not presentable as perfect" folks must have had their dross, chaff, wood, hay, and stubble dealt with, cleansed, or burnt off.  However it is done, they MUST be presentable at this point, and that means they cannot be in Hell.

I see mention of spiritual treasures in this epistle, but not of Hell.         

[Lazarus Short]

The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Thessalonians

Now we stressed in our comments about the last epistle that Jesus was/is saving us from our sins.  Here, in 1:10, Paul says more:  "...Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."  He echoes John the Baptist who asked some (who had come to him) who had warned them to flee from the coming wrath. (Luke 3:7)  This wrath could be the soon-coming siege of Jerusalem, or it could be end-times events.  It was not declared to be Hell, unless Paul was using code-words, and being the plain-speaking man that he was, I doubt it.

At the end of Chapter 4, Paul gives his readers a quick glimpse of the Second Coming.  Heaven gets a mention, and the Earth is implied, but Hell is absent , but since only the believers are mentioned, we would expect that.  In the beginning of Chapter 5, Paul says, "...the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them..."  (verses 2-3)  Remember that Hell is not mentioned here, and unless told otherwise, we should assume a destruction is something happening in the real, literal world.

We cannot find Hades or Hell in this epistle.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen! on Colossians and Thessalonians... Very good! :smile:

[Lazarus Short]

The Second Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Thessalonians

We may be in trouble here in 1:8-9 – "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" 

However, I have three points to make:

1.  Hell is not mentioned here - a consistent lack in all of Paul's epistles.

2.  We have established, at least I hope I have in the minds of my readers, that the fire of God is for cleansing, for purification, and ultimately for salvation.  Remember my comments on Colossians.

3.  Then there is "everlasting."  I looked it up, as I do many texts, on the www, in an interlinear version.  Yup, the Greek is our now-familiar "aionion."  The verse should read, then, "age-long destruction."  This means, as I keep stressing, that the unbelievers will have their dross, etc. burned away, will suffer loss, and yet will be saved in the End.

In Chapter 2, Paul speaks of the appearance of the "son of perdition," with a connection to Satan, and a "falling away."  In verse 7, he mentions the "mystery of iniquity" which is in his day, already at work.  He then states God's response:  "...for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" (verse 11)  In the centuries after these times, the purity and simplicity of the Good News was diluted and polluted by layer after layer of theology, tradition and accommodation to pagan ways.  Pagans were brought in, in name only, but not really made fit for the Kingdom.  The Doctrine of Hell was only a part of the problem, but it may be the part repelling more unbelievers than any other.  That is why I write.

That is everything of interest to our Thesis in this epistle in which neither Hades nor Hell can be found.

[darryl]

The Second Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Thessalonians

We may be in trouble here in 1:8-9 – "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" 

However, I have three points to make:

1.  Hell is not mentioned here - a consistent lack in all of Paul's epistles.

2.  We have established, at least I hope I have in the minds of my readers, that the fire of God is for cleansing, for purification, and ultimately for salvation.  Remember my comments on Colossians.

3.  Then there is "everlasting."  I looked it up, as I do many texts, on the www, in an interlinear version.  Yup, the Greek is our now-familiar "aionion."  The verse should read, then, "age-long destruction."  This means, as I keep stressing, that the unbelievers will have their dross, etc. burned away, will suffer loss, and yet will be saved in the End.

In Chapter 2, Paul speaks of the appearance of the "son of perdition," with a connection to Satan, and a "falling away."  In verse 7, he mentions the "mystery of iniquity" which is in his day, already at work.  He then states God's response:  "...for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" (verse 11)  In the centuries after these times, the purity and simplicity of the Good News was diluted and polluted by layer after layer of theology, tradition and accommodation to pagan ways.  Pagans were brought in, in name only, but not really made fit for the Kingdom.  The Doctrine of Hell was only a part of the problem, but it may be the part repelling more unbelievers than any other.  That is why I write.

That is everything of interest to our Thesis in this epistle in which neither Hades nor Hell can be found.

we are still ok..'Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,'should actually read  (in the Greek ) 'from the face of the Lord' and not 'from the presence of the Lord'..i.e. the 'destruction issues forth from God's 'face'.

A close call indeed because 'from the presence of the Lord' implies separation from God, which we don't want.Why?, because post- mortem separation from God is a main pillar of ECT belief.So, heave a sigh of relief that the text does not mention any post- mortem separation from God...we are still ok !. :banana: :dsunny: :laughing7:

[Lazarus Short]

The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy

Early on, Paul advises Timothy, "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turn aside unto vain jangling:" (1:4-6)  This makes me wonder if I am ministering questions – I'd rather be doing charity/love out of a pure heart, but if I can resolve this Hell question in a way that glorifies God, I can edify even so, and not be just a vain jangler.

In 1:15, Paul reminds us:  "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."  Yes, sinners, as He said Himself.  Remember the parables of the Shepherd who left the 99 sheep to find 1 straying sheep.  Recall the parable of the feast, where the Master of the house ordered His servants to compel random people on the road to come into His feast.  Jesus made His disciples Fishers of Men, and these men fished not with spears or hook and line, but with nets.  Nets take fish in bulk, and are not at all choosy.  Are these facts compatible with the Hell theory which leaves a large part of mankind permanently in the lurch?

Winding up the first chapter, Paul mentions two men, "whom I have delivered unto Satan." (verse 20)  Once again, we see Satan in operation on the Earth, in this literal world we live in.  Paul's purpose?  "...that they may learn not to blaspheme."  Whatever happened to these two men, they must not have died and had their souls dragged off to Hell, as many would assume here.

Now in 2:4-6, we have a text which should be able, on its own, to bring the Hell Theory crashing down:  "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all..."  So God will have all men saved?  "Will have" is footnoted "desires to," so we have willing, but how about able?  Are God's sovereignty and His omnipotence not doctrines in most churches?  Yes, they are, and we also know that God has used His Powers over and over to overthrow the puny wills and actions of men.  How about Noah's flood?  How about the destruction of Sodom and several other cities?  How about the killing of all those Canaanites?  I really wish I could stop the mouths of some of those theologians who babble on about how God would not violate the wills of men, but regretfully lets them enter Hell.  Rubbish!

OK, we've got willing and able, which we covered once before, but also notice as well, that God is willing (and able) to save all men, and that Jesus is a ransom for all men, in perfect accord with His Father, and with what we have read thus far.  As I said, this should resolve the whole question, but let's move on, keeping in mind that what we read must agree with what we have read.

Chapter 4, verse 1, says, "...that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to...doctrines of devils."  Well, the doctrine of Hell is just chock full of devils, isn't it?  Then verse 10 expands on 2:4-6:  "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."  Of course, He is the savior of believers, but note carefully – of all men as well.  How is the Hell Theory to stand when this epistle has already stated three times that all men are saved?  Paul concludes the thought:  "These things command and teach." (verse 11)  I'm trying to do just that.

The last thing I want to comment on is 6:13 – "...God, who quickeneth [footnoted "gives life to"] all things..."  This is God's Way – to create, to make life, to maintain life, to restore life.  In the Cosmos of such a God, death is only a temporary aberration, not a permanent destination.         

[darryl]

The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy

Early on, Paul advises Timothy, "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turn aside unto vain jangling:" (1:4-6)  This makes me wonder if I am ministering questions – I'd rather be doing charity/love out of a pure heart, but if I can resolve this Hell question in a way that glorifies God, I can edify even so, and not be just a vain jangler.

In 1:15, Paul reminds us:  "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."  Yes, sinners, as He said Himself.  Remember the parables of the Shepherd who left the 99 sheep to find 1 straying sheep.  Recall the parable of the feast, where the Master of the house ordered His servants to compel random people on the road to come into His feast.  Jesus made His disciples Fishers of Men, and these men fished not with spears or hook and line, but with nets.  Nets take fish in bulk, and are not at all choosy.  Are these facts compatible with the Hell theory which leaves a large part of mankind permanently in the lurch?

Winding up the first chapter, Paul mentions two men, "whom I have delivered unto Satan." (verse 20)  Once again, we see Satan in operation on the Earth, in this literal world we live in.  Paul's purpose?  "...that they may learn not to blaspheme."  Whatever happened to these two men, they must not have died and had their souls dragged off to Hell, as many would assume here.

Now in 2:4-6, we have a text which should be able, on its own, to bring the Hell Theory crashing down:  "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all..."  So God will have all men saved?  "Will have" is footnoted "desires to," so we have willing, but how about able?  Are God's sovereignty and His omnipotence not doctrines in most churches?  Yes, they are, and we also know that God has used His Powers over and over to overthrow the puny wills and actions of men.  How about Noah's flood?  How about the destruction of Sodom and several other cities?  How about the killing of all those Canaanites?  I really wish I could stop the mouths of some of those theologians who babble on about how God would not violate the wills of men, but regretfully lets them enter Hell.  Rubbish!

OK, we've got willing and able, which we covered once before, but also notice as well, that God is willing (and able) to save all men, and that Jesus is a ransom for all men, in perfect accord with His Father, and with what we have read thus far.  As I said, this should resolve the whole question, but let's move on, keeping in mind that what we read must agree with what we have read.

Chapter 4, verse 1, says, "...that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to...doctrines of devils."  Well, the doctrine of Hell is just chock full of devils, isn't it?  Then verse 10 expands on 2:4-6:  "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."  Of course, He is the savior of believers, but note carefully – of all men as well.  How is the Hell Theory to stand when this epistle has already stated three times that all men are saved?  Paul concludes the thought:  "These things command and teach." (verse 11)  I'm trying to do just that.

The last thing I want to comment on is 6:13 – "...God, who quickeneth [footnoted "gives life to"] all things..."  This is God's Way – to create, to make life, to maintain life, to restore life.  In the Cosmos of such a God, death is only a temporary aberration, not a permanent destination.       

well said..here  here !  :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Lazarus Short]

The Second Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy

"...For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him...if we deny him, he also will deny us." (2:1-12)  What does this mean?  It goes well for the believer, but for the unbeliever, denying Jesus places him in the not-presentable-as-perfect group, to be raised from the dead only at the End, missing out on the first resurrection, and suffering loss.

Paul advises us, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2:15)  It is not sufficient to sit under the preaching of any man, especially in these days where ministers are typically trained in seminaries, and trained by professors who pursue ideas which the average member of their denomination might think quite odd.  I found this out myself when my father and I took a night course on the Old Testament at the local Baptist seminary.  My father disagreed with the professor so much that he dropped out.  I tell you, Christian, there is just no substitute for your own reverent study of the Word, using some helps such as a good concordance, as accurate a Bible translation as you can possibly find, and internet helps with the Hebrew and Greek.  A good knowledge of both sacred and secular history is a benefit too.  There are things in the Word which leave us wondering, but the basic message is the same, from one end to the other.  Study then, but do not be one who is "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth...Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." (3:7 & 5)  The basics are easy to understand and spiritually discerned, so that children and fools understand, but the learned do not – such is the mystery of God's doings.

When he wrote this letter, Paul was in chains, in prison, and awaiting his death.  He seems cheerful, but warns Timothy that, "...the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (4:3-4)  The sound doctrine he mentions would be what we have read in the Gospels, Acts, and the Epistles.  None of them establish Hell.  What lust would turn Christians to the fable of Hell?  I think it is the all-too-human lust to have vengeance on our personal enemies.  Remember that one's enemy is also a child of the same God Who told us to forgive them, and even to minister to them.

That is my take on II Timothy, an epistle where, once again, Hades and Hell cannot be found.