The Problem of Evil

[Lefein]

First, I'd like to introduce the reason I posted this topic.

In light of some past arguments, and discussions I have a few issues that I need to find answers for, and a few frustrations that I'd like to vent.

My first frustration is, in the face of words like Olam, that I long for a proper, readable, English translation that is well...perfect.  Yet there are none that I can find, or access.  I believe that the Originals are certainly inspired, and at the very least 98% textually pure.  The translations of these however are like stained garments, and I grow weary of sifting through the stains.

My second frustration is similar to my frustration with the translations, but on a more doctrinal level.  I've seen doctrines that are hideous, and wicked.  And then I have seen ideas that have made me think, and have so caused me to have to reconsider my positions.  My frustration here is not so much with the fact that there are other ideas and doctrines other than mine, rather than the knowledge that all of these including mine are like our righteousness - filthy rags, foolishness, stupidity, vain.  It is a little bit disturbing that God may be laughing at my efforts to fathom in my finite brain the sum of everything.

Currently my issue is the relationship between God who is good, and Evil.

It is well known that I don't believe we are puppets, or bits of code doing action C after action B after action A without any say so, or which way about the matter.  Neither do I believe we are following another version of "Fate".  I do however believe in God's sovereignty, that it is a harmonious sovereignty that is directly related to his omniscience, and omnipresence, and omnipotence.

"Every single moment in time is laid out before him, like a list of snapshots that he can alter at any point in which he pleases, he sees all of these paused snapshots from a birds eye view, what we see as a film strip playing"

Our movements are made by our own will, not by puppetry.

But this is not about the "forbidden subject" this is just a statement of my beliefs for backdrop into the issue of Evil.  I suppose that people would think this an exaggerated, emotionally appealing sort of thing...

But for what good purpose would God have to ordain a man to rape a woman, or a little boy, or a little girl, and see that it be done?  Such a God is not only the source of evil, but is Evil by nature, and a wicked sinner.

Basically, these are questions I need to have answers for, good answers.  And preferably answers that are on topic, and readable...or atleast understandable... :sigh:

But anyway...

God and Evil, what's the deal?

[micah7:9]

For every positive there is a negative that is a law, for every action there is a reaction.

[shawn]

My journey has come full circle.  I will say that I also had significant issues with the translations.  But, I have expressed even more distain for the doctrine of ET even from the english texts.  From the english texts I don't see how anyone could come to that conclusion.  It made me feel angry, confused and it made me search.

Where I am now...well I realize that God is in control.  If the english texts are written with error then God allowed that to happen.  I trust God.  I trust in his agape love, holiness and his goodness.  I honestly don't know how God works it all out on judgment day...nor do I have to.  If you trust him...the answer to that question becomes moot.  How will that answer change my walk?  If my walk is based on faith then it shouldn't matter.  We have been given enough to live a life pleasing to the Lord.  Isn't that really all that matters?  Some of us choose to adhere to it.  Some of us don't.  All will have to give an account and we will all be judged.  It's God's job to judge and not my own.

What I continue to have issue with is those who misrepresent scripture to support doctrine that hurts the faith.  There are things we will not know until we die.  And those issues should be discussed in those terms.  Presenting something as solid, fact when it hasn't been fully revealed is short sighted at best.

[Lefein]

Micah: Elaborate?


Shawn:  My problem is that I have been acquainted with suffering, and have an empathetic nature that makes me susceptible to its pains - needless pain, pain that is unnecessary.  Pains that never go away for many people, and for others drives them to barbarity rather than betterment.

It is not a matter of faith and trust, but rather a matter of principle; Is God a divine Violator?  Even if he doesn't violate someone (rape, murder, etc) by his naked hand, if he wears a person like a glove to sin against another, it is still his hand, not the glove who did the wretched act.

As for the translations, it is more a matter of certainty and convenience.  I want to know that my views are aligned with what is perfectly correct and True, perfectly I emphasize, but there is no translation that is perfect that will allow me to do this, and even then The Spirit does not speak to me as clearly as he did the Prophets, or in any way that I can seem to hear him perfectly all the time.

In essence, being imperfect, or looking like a fool when I find that I have been duped (like in the case of ET) is growing very tiresome.

[micah7:9]

Pharoh and Moses.

[shawn]

Micah: Elaborate?


Shawn:  My problem is that I have been acquainted with suffering, and have an empathetic nature that makes me susceptible to its pains - needless pain, pain that is unnecessary.  Pains that never go away for many people, and for others drives them to barbarity rather than betterment.

It is not a matter of faith and trust, but rather a matter of principle; Is God a divine Violator?  Even if he doesn't violate someone (rape, murder, etc) by his naked hand, if he wears a person like a glove to sin against another, it is still his hand, not the glove who did the wretched act.

As for the translations, it is more a matter of certainty and convenience.  I want to know that my views are aligned with what is perfectly correct and True, perfectly I emphasize, but there is no translation that is perfect that will allow me to do this, and even then The Spirit does not speak to me as clearly as he did the Prophets, or in any way that I can seem to hear him perfectly all the time.

In essence, being imperfect, or looking like a fool when I find that I have been duped (like in the case of ET) is growing very tiresome.

I am also empathetic my nature hence the reason I work in a helping profession.  I like to help those in pain and those who suffer.  So, I do understand.  As for whether God is a divine violator well we know that he isn't.  If you know he is just and holy then you know he doesn't sin nor does he do anything that isn't holy.  It really is about faith and trust.  Do you trust his nature even though you don't understand his ways?  Or must you understand and approve of his ways in order to worship him?  Only you can answer that for yourself.  But, I think we all go through a time where we question God's goodness. 

[Lefein]

Hmmmn...

You make a very strong point Shawn, and your example Micah makes sense as well.

Perhaps my problem is not so much about whether or not God is evil, so much as whether or not man's violation of man is God's doing, or Man's.  In light of things, it could not be God who violates man by gross means, though he is capable of taking back what belongs to him - Life.

Something to ponder through, but I think I may have an old article I wrote in the pre-UR days that might help, and I might share it, though...the "Forbidden subject" is in it, I'll probably give it to Jabcat or Cardinal and get a heads up and then share it if they approve.

At any rate, perhaps also this is just a backlash from where my doctrines have shifted so quickly, and my disgruntlement with Christendom has continued without any break, or glimmer of an actual community of sound believers that I can fellowship with in the "real world".

[shawn]

Hmmmn...

You make a very strong point Shawn, and your example Micah makes sense as well.

Perhaps my problem is not so much about whether or not God is evil, so much as whether or not man's violation of man is God's doing, or Man's.  In light of things, it could not be God who violates man by gross means, though he is capable of taking back what belongs to him - Life.

Something to ponder through, but I think I may have an old article I wrote in the pre-UR days that might help, and I might share it, though...the "Forbidden subject" is in it, I'll probably give it to Jabcat or Cardinal and get a heads up and then share it if they approve.

At any rate, perhaps also this is just a backlash from where my doctrines have shifted so quickly, and my disgruntlement with Christendom has continued without any break, or glimmer of an actual community of sound believers that I can fellowship with in the "real world".

Again for me free will is irrelevant.  All of these debates only confuse and distract.  I have no idea if man has free will, no free will or some hybrid.  What I do know is I am instructed to live for Christ.  And I will live my life as if I have free will and use my energy and focus to love God and to love my neighbor.  My walk is growing more and more simple.  God is weeding out useless garbage that doesn't further my walk.  I know what I am instructed to do and therefore I must obey God.  If I love Jesus I will do what he says for me to do.  We know how to please him and that is where our focus needs to be.  I believe many of the other debates I have been involved in only bring division and confusion.

Ask yourself a question when approaching any debate.  How will this further my walk or the walk of my brother/sister?  If the answer is...it won't...then leave it be.   :2c: 

[jabcat]

I've looked at the info and offered ideas.

This is obviously an intriguing topic, but it's been hashed out before in various versions, including with free will/sovereignty issues having to be moderated.  So I've been aware of this thread, realizing it can be really hard to talk about these things without getting into banned terms and strife.

We can give it a shot, but it's gonna take extra special effort to do, and honestly, to keep it from getting locked.   :sigh:

See what you can do with it  :happy3:

[Lefein]

I decided not to bring free-will into the topic at this time.  My focus is looking for encouragement, and enlightenment as to God and Evil; and hopefully finding a means to prove God's goodness untainted.

[Paul Hazelwood]

First, I'd like to introduce the reason I posted this topic.

In light of some past arguments, and discussions I have a few issues that I need to find answers for, and a few frustrations that I'd like to vent.

My first frustration is, in the face of words like Olam, that I long for a proper, readable, English translation that is well...perfect.  Yet there are none that I can find, or access.  I believe that the Originals are certainly inspired, and at the very least 98% textually pure.  The translations of these however are like stained garments, and I grow weary of sifting through the stains.

My second frustration is similar to my frustration with the translations, but on a more doctrinal level.  I've seen doctrines that are hideous, and wicked.  And then I have seen ideas that have made me think, and have so caused me to have to reconsider my positions.  My frustration here is not so much with the fact that there are other ideas and doctrines other than mine, rather than the knowledge that all of these including mine are like our righteousness - filthy rags, foolishness, stupidity, vain.  It is a little bit disturbing that God may be laughing at my efforts to fathom in my finite brain the sum of everything.

Currently my issue is the relationship between God who is good, and Evil.

It is well known that I don't believe we are puppets, or bits of code doing action C after action B after action A without any say so, or which way about the matter.  Neither do I believe we are following another version of "Fate".  I do however believe in God's sovereignty, that it is a harmonious sovereignty that is directly related to his omniscience, and omnipresence, and omnipotence.

"Every single moment in time is laid out before him, like a list of snapshots that he can alter at any point in which he pleases, he sees all of these paused snapshots from a birds eye view, what we see as a film strip playing"

Our movements are made by our own will, not by puppetry.

But this is not about the "forbidden subject" this is just a statement of my beliefs for backdrop into the issue of Evil.  I suppose that people would think this an exaggerated, emotionally appealing sort of thing...

But for what good purpose would God have to ordain a man to rape a woman, or a little boy, or a little girl, and see that it be done?  Such a God is not only the source of evil, but is Evil by nature, and a wicked sinner.

Basically, these are questions I need to have answers for, good answers.  And preferably answers that are on topic, and readable...or atleast understandable... :sigh:

But anyway...

God and Evil, what's the deal?

The fallacy is as I explained in the other thread.  When people wish to remain at a certain level of understanding all you have to do is invoke the "God did it for a good purpose, we just cannot understand it" clause.    Fact is,  we can understand God to the degree that we are fully capable of.

If we can understand that Rape is wrong, then we certainly do not have to accept that we simply do not understand why God would allow such a thing or that he planned such a thing or that he desired it for a good purpose.  We CAN know why God has nothing to do with it.

If we must accept that God ordains and desires a child rape to happen, then we have no assurance that any one of us would have been ordained by God to be the rapist.  Do we not hear that line of reasoning from some?  That God made the vessel of dishonor?  The problem is that those who use that logic will refuse to carry that logic out to the most extreme point and that is that at any moment they themselves could be the next hitler.  They themselves have no assurance that they won't be the next serial killer, because if they have no true choice in anything they do, then they could be the next one that shakes their baby to death.  Why God ordained it because it is for a good purpose, but it won't be them, because they love the Lord and he is good to them.  Uh huh.

Oh yeah, they talk about perhaps that God ordained them to make some mistakes in life, yada yada.   Just as the calvinist who believes that some humans are destined to burn in hell forever we only hear that the calvinists who truly understood that it could be them ended up in a mental ward.   The arguments never really hold up, for the cavinist concept is that those destined for hell are a result of Gods righteousness and that is worthy of praise.  Right, you will not see a calvinist praise God for revealing to them that they are one of the damned, haven't seen one, heard of one, and doubtfully we ever will.

The problem is that people use this illogic to reason, but they only take it so far, because when the logic comes full circle they have to fully include themselves in the doctrine and they never do.

I believe evil is a manifestation of the absence of understanding.  It is real and it affects us, but it is not God, it is what MUST be as our understanding comes to the full knowledge of truth and tho many do not like to hear it,  it is God expanding and God cannot change it, we are becoming God and are experiencing what a catapillar might experience while struggling to break free of the cocoon, it is WHAT MUST BE.   A well meaning child who tears open the cocoon to free the butterfly has just killed it.   We are caught in the cocoon of God growing and GOD cannot change it for it must happen so we will be God as well, just as JESUS is.   He has sent his word so that we may discover that we will be perfected and it was never actually God at all.

When people start seeing the bible as that message to us, then all those literal distasteful things that  "we must accept as God being good" really is not about that literal physical picture in the first place, it never has been.  It is carnal men afraid to see past their own skin.

[jabcat]

Thanks Lefein.  There are creative ways to discuss it without engaging in a jello hurling contest, but it does take some effort.  Also, I know it's hard to catch everything, but we do have this posted in the Announcement Section, under "What You May Not Do".   It's easy to miss such things, so I'll bring this to the fore...


"For these one warning may be given and then if repeated, you will be banned without further explanation.  The ban may be of time duration but rather expect it to be permanent.

1. Trolling.
2. Baiting.
3. Flaming.
4. Calling out any member's views/opinions as stupid, dumb, crazy etc. viz. insults.
5. Public criticism of moderation decisions.
6. Starting a new thread of a similar topic as one that is recently locked.
7. Outright "trashing" of the scriptures - "they are untrue", "X writer of scripture was an imposter, not inspired", etc.
8. Initiating or engaging in a debate on the "free will/sovereignty" or Trinity topics - especially directly continually using those terms.  It has caused too much strife on the boards and is not allowed.  (Discuss your point of view without pushing those "hot buttons".)"


It's fair everyone knows upfront, no surprises  :bigGrin:

[Lefein]

Point well noted Jabcat.

Paul: So in essence we are on a similar page. 

Evil is the absence of Good (my understanding of the concept), Evil is the absence of understanding (your understanding of the concept)

Am I correct in my statement of your understanding?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Point well noted Jabcat.

Paul: So in essence we are on a similar page. 

Evil is the absence of Good (my understanding of the concept), Evil is the absence of understanding (your understanding of the concept)

Am I correct in my statement of your understanding?

That is the general phrase I use to explain what I think yes.   It is like a shift of perception,  if you were a butterfly in a cocoon, you sure would want someone to break you free, but you don't know that this freedom is death.  However I take it to the degree that it is not God who planned our life in a cocoon for a good purpose,  it is inherantly the only path possible to being the butterfly and  perhaps Gods only possible act to prevent it  (and I question that too) is to have never created us in the first place.

I believe that our being created is an inherant act of Gods nature, something that also cannot be changed by himself.

[jabcat]

Point well noted Jabcat.

:handshake:

[thinktank]

I think the argument that people use, that God allows evil to happen and he could have prevented it, therefore he is the author of evil, is flawed.

The scripture says there is no darkness in him at all, and when he does things such as flooding the earth and killing people he says this is a strange act he does, in order to save his creation.

Genesis 1:31   
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

First God wants life and created many things out of love. The fact that he knows ahead of time that some will rebel does not mean that he should not create. God is willing to create things out of love, even though he knew in time that many would rebel and cause great evil. But he also knew before hand that he himself would have to save his own creation, the lamb of God who was slain before the foundation of the world.

Despite this evil, God restores order and puts all enemies under his feet.

He restores all men

He proves his love and majesty to his own creation

He does this by using the thing that the devil invented, called evil and uses that invention which is simply rebellion, even as a tool to bring people to Christ, he makes good out of evil.

[micah7:9]

Thinktank..."He does this by using the thing that the devil invented, called evil and uses that invention which is simply rebellion, even as a tool to bring people to Christ, he makes good out of evil."

The devil invented??? 
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."

[Lefein]

It can also be translated as Calamity.

As for Evi; evil is not an entity in and of itself anymore than darkness, or cold.  There is Good, Light, and Heat - Evil, Darkness, and Cold are not entities of Truth (what is), but are the absence of these things.

"And it was Good" is how God created everything.  It was not until it became devoid or distant from God that it began its decline into evil - when something is absent of God, it becomes empty of goodness and so becomes evil.

Atleast, according to my understanding.

For God to have invented evil, is for God to have invented child abuse, human trafficking, the porn industry, abortion, the gas chamber, rape, murder, and torture.  Can we attribute a loving deity with the invention of a harem of six year olds (and this is no emotional exaggeration but a reality in many countries)?  Or the murder of thousands of innocent unborn children all across the earth?

And last but not least...

If God is the inventor of evil, he is the inventor of lying - and so God would be the Father of Lies... :mshock:

[shawn]

First, I'd like to introduce the reason I posted this topic.

In light of some past arguments, and discussions I have a few issues that I need to find answers for, and a few frustrations that I'd like to vent.

My first frustration is, in the face of words like Olam, that I long for a proper, readable, English translation that is well...perfect.  Yet there are none that I can find, or access.  I believe that the Originals are certainly inspired, and at the very least 98% textually pure.  The translations of these however are like stained garments, and I grow weary of sifting through the stains.

My second frustration is similar to my frustration with the translations, but on a more doctrinal level.  I've seen doctrines that are hideous, and wicked.  And then I have seen ideas that have made me think, and have so caused me to have to reconsider my positions.  My frustration here is not so much with the fact that there are other ideas and doctrines other than mine, rather than the knowledge that all of these including mine are like our righteousness - filthy rags, foolishness, stupidity, vain.  It is a little bit disturbing that God may be laughing at my efforts to fathom in my finite brain the sum of everything.

Currently my issue is the relationship between God who is good, and Evil.

It is well known that I don't believe we are puppets, or bits of code doing action C after action B after action A without any say so, or which way about the matter.  Neither do I believe we are following another version of "Fate".  I do however believe in God's sovereignty, that it is a harmonious sovereignty that is directly related to his omniscience, and omnipresence, and omnipotence.

"Every single moment in time is laid out before him, like a list of snapshots that he can alter at any point in which he pleases, he sees all of these paused snapshots from a birds eye view, what we see as a film strip playing"

Our movements are made by our own will, not by puppetry.

But this is not about the "forbidden subject" this is just a statement of my beliefs for backdrop into the issue of Evil.  I suppose that people would think this an exaggerated, emotionally appealing sort of thing...

But for what good purpose would God have to ordain a man to rape a woman, or a little boy, or a little girl, and see that it be done?  Such a God is not only the source of evil, but is Evil by nature, and a wicked sinner.

Basically, these are questions I need to have answers for, good answers.  And preferably answers that are on topic, and readable...or atleast understandable... :sigh:

But anyway...

God and Evil, what's the deal?

The fallacy is as I explained in the other thread.  When people wish to remain at a certain level of understanding all you have to do is invoke the "God did it for a good purpose, we just cannot understand it" clause.    Fact is,  we can understand God to the degree that we are fully capable of.

If we can understand that Rape is wrong, then we certainly do not have to accept that we simply do not understand why God would allow such a thing or that he planned such a thing or that he desired it for a good purpose.  We CAN know why God has nothing to do with it.

If we must accept that God ordains and desires a child rape to happen, then we have no assurance that any one of us would have been ordained by God to be the rapist.  Do we not hear that line of reasoning from some?  That God made the vessel of dishonor?  The problem is that those who use that logic will refuse to carry that logic out to the most extreme point and that is that at any moment they themselves could be the next hitler.  They themselves have no assurance that they won't be the next serial killer, because if they have no true choice in anything they do, then they could be the next one that shakes their baby to death.  Why God ordained it because it is for a good purpose, but it won't be them, because they love the Lord and he is good to them.  Uh huh.

Oh yeah, they talk about perhaps that God ordained them to make some mistakes in life, yada yada.   Just as the calvinist who believes that some humans are destined to burn in hell forever we only hear that the calvinists who truly understood that it could be them ended up in a mental ward.   The arguments never really hold up, for the cavinist concept is that those destined for hell are a result of Gods righteousness and that is worthy of praise.  Right, you will not see a calvinist praise God for revealing to them that they are one of the damned, haven't seen one, heard of one, and doubtfully we ever will.

The problem is that people use this illogic to reason, but they only take it so far, because when the logic comes full circle they have to fully include themselves in the doctrine and they never do.

I believe evil is a manifestation of the absence of understanding.  It is real and it affects us, but it is not God, it is what MUST be as our understanding comes to the full knowledge of truth and tho many do not like to hear it,  it is God expanding and God cannot change it, we are becoming God and are experiencing what a catapillar might experience while struggling to break free of the cocoon, it is WHAT MUST BE.   A well meaning child who tears open the cocoon to free the butterfly has just killed it.   We are caught in the cocoon of God growing and GOD cannot change it for it must happen so we will be God as well, just as JESUS is.   He has sent his word so that we may discover that we will be perfected and it was never actually God at all.

When people start seeing the bible as that message to us, then all those literal distasteful things that  "we must accept as God being good" really is not about that literal physical picture in the first place, it never has been.  It is carnal men afraid to see past their own skin.

I really like this Paul.

[micah7:9]

evil  H7451 "ra" = bad. Yes calamity is mentioned, either way The Lord God created it.
I we read in Gen 2:17  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (bad), thou shalt not eat of it,—for in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shelf die.

"I believe evil is a manifestation of the absence of understanding.  It is real and it affects us, but it is not God, it is what MUST be as our understanding comes to the full knowledge of truth and tho many do not like to hear it,  it is God expanding and God cannot change it, we are becoming God and are experiencing what a catapillar might experience while struggling to break free of the cocoon, it is WHAT MUST BE."(Paul)

[Lefein]

There is a difference between creating a storm that covers the sun in clouds and omens, and creating the tumult that is wicked darkness in the soul.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: God created the darkness of the first 6 days/6000 years, and said that it was good, even very good, because He uses it for a tool, a servant. Men have a choice, have a conscience they can sear as with a hot iron (creates a scar that has no feeling) as to whether or not they give in to the darkness, even before they KNOW the Lord.

As for what we see "out there", it's been created from the heart of the now spiritual priesthood, who He made to be one with the Head. They "out there" are the body, who can only do what they perceive their head (priesthood) do. This is why Jesus was so rough on the Pharisees, who had the "position" first, confronting them time and again over their HEARTS, and their refusal to take the burdens off the people, and/or even added to them.

This is also why Jesus said if you lust after a woman in your HEART, you've already committed adultery with her. Why? Because the head and the body are one, and the body does, what it "sees" the head do in it's heart. The soul is a womb, Eve was a womb-man, capable of reproducing whatever seed is planted in it. I could go on and on, but this is stating the "bare bones" of the precept. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[WhiteWings]

It can also be translated as Calamity.

But that would be wrong imo.

Some have tried to show that Isa. 45:7 is speaking of "calamity" and not "evil."
Of the nineteen times that the word "calamity" appears in the Scriptures, it is never translated from the Hebrew Word ra, but usually is translated from the Hebrew word, ade.

Before we go further, it is necessary for those who have never seen it proven, that it
is God Who is the Creator, User, and unltimately, the Destroyer of evil.
I often receive emails from readers who assert that the word "evil" in this verse
should be translated "calamity." That is decidedly a fabricated assertion, but little
would be gained by it even if it were true. Would the Christmas tsunami in
Indonesia have reeked less havoc had it been a "calamity" rather than an "evil?"
What would be gained by calling "evils" by the name "calamities"? That is
nonsense.
Nevertheless, let it be known that the word translated "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 is the
Hebrew word ra. The Hebrew word for "calamity" is the Hebrew word ade which
means "misfortune, misery, or ruin. Whereas the Hebrew word ra means "bad or
evil." It is the same word used for the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil
[ra]." It was not the tree of the knowledge of "good and calamity." Did Jacob
really mean to say, "a calamitous beast" had devoured his son? (Gen. 37:33)?
Did Israel really "do calamity in the sight of God" by worshipping Balaam, or did
they do evil? (Jud. 3:7).
The Hebrew ra means "bad or evil" and it is used over four hundred times to
represent bad or evil, not calamity.
God created ra—EVIL. Furthermore God used evil and continues to use evil
against His creatures all day long



http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html   40% down the page.

[thinktank]

Thinktank..."He does this by using the thing that the devil invented, called evil and uses that invention which is simply rebellion, even as a tool to bring people to Christ, he makes good out of evil."

The devil invented??? 
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."

"why callest thou me good, only He is good, even God"

"How can light dwell with darkness"

1 John 3:8 
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hmm two scriptures with opposing views so which scripture is true, lets reason together.

One says that God is the creator of evil but another says that when one sins they connect to the devil, because he invented it.

How is God the creator of evil?

Did he not create all beings good?

But some rebelled, he charged his angels with folly.
Job 4:18   
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

So if God is the maker of all things and the creator of the evil beings is that true?

Did God create the devil? No, but he did create him though. Did God test Us to do Good or evil? But we choose to do evil. So did God test his angels to see whether they did good or evil? I think the test was maybe that God would create a new being, mankind after his own likeness, a being that has his very nature, a being that could in effect be as boss over the angels, because we are as gods. This might have annoyed/frightened some to rebel and so they failed the test of loyalty. Is God to blame for his own creation rebeling against him? Should he not as a perfect God give his creation the right do do as they please and let them be free, rather than slaves to him. For God did not want slaves, he wants friends. Jesus said to his disciples
I no longer call you servants but friends for a servant does not know what his master thinks.
We have access to the heart of God, I think this is the key difference between mankind and angelic beings, we have a intimate relationship with God, while angels are servants. God says to Gabriel, Go here and Go there and he goes without question, but we can ask "why God?" And God says "because the man needs your help, go my son". Our experience here on this plane, proves our loyalty to God that we are fit enough be be called Gods sons, for it is not wise to put an untested being of god like powers in authority.

I think that's the gist of it, but theres allways more to learn.


10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. [5] 12 When ye come to appear [6] before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, [7] even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve [8] the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

God doesn't like evil, why would he create it? in him there is no darkness at all.

A good tree does not produce evil fruit and neither does an evil tree bring forth good fruit.

[Lefein]

A very good post Thinktank.

I've been mulling over a recent portion of my post as of late, and I think that post somewhat brings it to a closer conclusion.

If God "invented" evil, then he invented lying, and so he is the Father of Lies.  It is not possible for God to lie, let alone be the father of them.  All forms of evil (unrighteous, wrongness, sin) are lies, because they go against Truth.  Truth is always righteous, never is it sinful to be True.