Introducing Myself

[Paul Hazelwood]

there is a lot of evidence in the Bible that shows that the Holy Spirit cannot be given through those who are false.

Even if it is true what you say, The holy spirit does not need a man to give it in the first place.   You could be deceived into thinking men did it when you actually received it without them and they used that to their own advantage. 

Masturbation is not wrong, btw.   Is the boogey man going to make me pay because I taught my kids its ok?   

[WhiteWings]

WW, can you back up your comment about paul Cohen with the Scriptures?

I think the reply was clear enough....?
According to Paul everyone that reads a verse (slightly) different then he does is mistaken, misguided, etc.

"I know everything. Try to prove me wrong. Your interpretation is different from mine so you are wrong because I know everything."
That's what I call circular reasoning.

But I fear you have no clue what I mean because you asked for scriptures.
You are doing a bad job as a disciple of Paul because the last thing he wants is people agreeing with his views.

[Nathan]

Pneuma, excellent quotes ...

"Words of judgment do not bother me, words of judgment without knowledge do."

"Strife means a courting distinction; a desire to put one's self forward."

"Jesus said, my sheep know my voice and another they will not follow."

... much spoken in few words!

peacemaker

Apparently this only applies to Israel . . . Tony says we're not all sheep . .just those guys are.

[CHB]

 

I spoke of having received the Holy Spirit through these men.

Well!! thats a new one on me, and I thought all the time we received the Holy Spirit through God?   :mshock:  :sigh:

Witness, I have a question? Is Paul C the only man that we can receive the Holy Spirit through?

CHB

[jabcat]

Apparently this only applies to Israel . . . Tony says we're not all sheep . .just those guys are.

Lost sheep/House of Israel, then there's "found"/saved sheep, maybe...:Chinscratch:   The lost sheep wouldn't hear/know His voice until/unless they were "found".... the majority of the House of Israel still don't ...my  :2c:.

[sven]

I didn't follow the whole discussion but the way other Christians believing in the final salvation of all are treated here is not good.

If we, believing in the reconcilation of all can't keep peace even with those believing the same than we are the worst example imaginable.

I sometimes chat with Paul and respect him, I share not all his opinions but I think some things he says are true, at least worth to hear.

[pneuma]

A new reply to Paul C on my blog for those interested

[pneuma]

I didn't follow the whole discussion but the way other Christians believing in the final salvation of all are treated here is not good.

If we, believing in the reconcilation of all can't keep peace even with those believing the same than we are the worst example imaginable.

I sometimes chat with Paul and respect him, I share not all his opinions but I think some things he says are true, at least worth to hear.

Sven it is not what Paul beleives so much as his judgments of everyone here that was the problem.

I am speaking with him also and you can find our letters to one another on my blog if you are interested.

[Taffy]

Thanks Scott :icon_flower:

[reFORMer]

We don't need people rolling in here who believe they are the know all and end all and literally speak for God Himself - telling us who is saved and isn't, who knows God and doesn't etc. etc.

If someone wants to come in and discuss - fine. Paul has stated on his public forum that Gary (tentmaker founder) doesn't know God.

Quote: "We have also dealt with Gary Amirault of "Tentmaker," and he too does not know the Lord. He may have some true teachings, but so what? Men that do not know God are still in their sins and cannot bring one to God".

Reality isn't like that anyway.  Jesus the true Light has shined on everyone coming into the world.  There are degrees of knowing God.  That corresponds to varying degrees of salvation.  Knowlege of such things concerning others (even ourselves) is not common.  When we know or prophetically see related things it is mostly something particular for the improvement of the one to which we are responsible to minister.  Even those being given over to reprobate minds are so because of knowledge of God they hold.  Even if suppressed it cannot be eliminated. It seems you might be beyond various degrees of this and that aspect of God, at least crossed some kind of line, if you have victory over death.  But, you won't be spreading death if you have victory over it.  I can try to defend black and white, cut and dried, you're in or out approaches with certain passages of Scripture; but, Jesus calling some leaders "whitewashed sepulchers filled with dead mens bones that men trod on unaware of what they're stepping in" was with the intent that they would recognize themselves and change.  Jesus' purpose from the Father was to only speak into Life (to the degree pertaining to the eon in which He speaks) those to whom He was speaking.  He is the source of our standard to bless and curse not, to not return evil for evil, but overcome evil with good.

I notice when it comes to the light these guys claim their supposed discernment is only for the evil: who does not know God or who is not saved.  They have no light for the good, only for the evil.

"The lamp of the body is your eye. If, then, your eye should be single, your whole body will be luminous.  Yet if your eye should be wicked, your whole body will be dark. If, then, the light that is in you is darkness, how dense is the darkness!" (Mt 6:22-23)

We know where Paul's heart is because we see what he treasures.

[Taffy]

He and his family are greatly suffering the ravages of sin, as do many on Tentmaker

Care to expound ? :dontknow:

[Witness]

paul hazelwood, you write:

Even if it is true what you say, The holy spirit does not need a man to give it in the first place.   You could be deceived into thinking men did it when you actually received it without them and they used that to their own advantage.  

it is true that the holy Spirit can be given by God without the mediation of a man.  in all cases in the Scriptures, however (besides the original recipients of His spirit at Pentecost), a man was required.

even the apostle Paul had to receive sight and the baptism in the Spirit from a man- Ananias. this was wonderfully arranged by God. it seems to me that you would say to Paul- "but you could have received without a man!"  no, it has to be- always- as God gives it. otherwise, it is not to be.

as for myself, what you said is not true. I did not receive by myself from the Lord before Victor and paul laid hands on me. it was through their ministration.

you also write:

Masturbation is not wrong, btw.

the bible doesn't say that masturbation is OK.  you may answer, "well, the bible doesn't say it's not!"  in answer to that objection, I ask you to read the posting to darwin fish, "must everything be spelled out in the bible?":

http://www.thepathoftruth.com/issuesoflife/musteverythingbespelledout.htm

also consider what the Bible does speak about:

Matthew 5:27-29 MKJV  You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not commit adultery."  (28)  But I say to you that whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.  (29)  And if your right eye offends you, pluck it out and throw it from you. For it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be thrown into hell.

Leviticus 15:16-18 MKJV  And if any man's semen goes from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water and be unclean until the evening.  (17)  And every garment and every skin on which the semen shall be, it shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the evening. 

If, in the Old Testament, a man was unclean for having an ejaculation, and if, in the New Testament, Jesus said not to lust after a woman (or a woman after a man), why would masturbation then be OK?

here are some more scriptures that speak generally about succumbing to the lusts of the flesh:

Jude 1:16 KJV These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

2 Timothy 3:2-5 KJV
(2)  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
(3)  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
(4)  Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
(5)  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Titus 3:3 KJV  For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

why would it not be better to look to the Lord for deliverance and the holy life in Him?

2 Peter 2:9-10 MKJV  The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust for a day of judgment, to be punished,  (10)  and especially those who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise dominion. They are darers, self-pleasing; not trembling at glories, speaking evil.

there is also a good and applicable scripture quoted at the end of this segment from "is your profession of faith vain, Christian?" (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/issuesoflife/professionoffaith.htm):

Are You a Masturbator?

Do you masturbate? Does your church teach or condone this as an alternative to being given over to the sin of fornication? Or do they not discuss it at all, leaving you to follow your own thoughts and inclinations? Be sure to know that indulging the lusts of the flesh is sowing in corruption, and you will reap the same. Rather than ruling over and keeping your body under, you are ruled by the carnal and physical appetites. To the world this is the way things are, not knowing any better or differently, but for the Christian it is a tragic loss. You have no idea of what you are losing or doing to yourself, those who name the Name of Christ and masturbate. Instead of entering into the victorious life of the Spirit, you consign yourself to spiritual death:

"But she who gives herself to pleasure is dead while she is living" (1 Timothy 5:6 BBE).

you ask, paul h.:

Is the boogey man going to make me pay because I taught my kids its ok?

obviously you aren't seeing how you pay right now, but one day you will when you realize the harm you did to your children in teaching them this.  no, there is no boogey man, but there is the bondage to sin that causes death.  I know, i was in that death, and now I know the difference after having been set free and given life in the Lord.  praise his holy and blessed name!

i see you can't answer my question, WW.  the only thing you can do is make up words, put them in someone's mouth, and then blame him.  where do you find that in the Scriptures?

here is what I find:

Matthew 26:59-61 MKJV  And the chief priests and the elders and all the sanhedrin sought false witness against Jesus, in order to put Him to death.  (60)  But they found none; yea, though many false witnesses came, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came up  (61)  and said, This one said, I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.

[peacemaker]

He and his family are greatly suffering the ravages of sin, as do many on Tentmaker

Care to expound ? :dontknow:

Black Propaganda (public agitation with pretense) that supports or serves a particular agenda, but fails to paint a complete picture, and is disseminated to influence the opinion, attitudes or behavior of others based on emotionalism, thus, it is deceptive and misleading; to create hatred towards their group in order for them to claim they are "the" path to truth, either directly or indirectly. Although, this is merely an attempt to transfer blame by labeling or stereotyping others – a form of Scapegoating.

"Outer publicity reveals inner instability."

peacemaker

[reFORMer]

In chapter 7 of 1 Corinthians, verse 36-38 it could be read to apply to masturbation.  There are details in the Greek that enhance that interpretation.  One obvious reason is present interpreters using those verses in relation to marriage between a man and woman with that topic so well covered elsewhere in the chapter results in a redundancy on the matter, or so it seems to me.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Witness, you really have no idea what your talking about, seriously.

It is interesting that I taught my kids that they should masturbate so that the normal desires that they have sexually would not build up into physical indulgences that become spontaneous without reasonable thought.  Religion has made normal human desire into a dirty porn movie because it is full of people who have sexual desire that they feel guilty about and want everyone else to be as miserable as they are.

They both are looking for mates that are kind and loving and respectful, so you really have no idea at all, you are bound to the perversion of religion that takes normal human behavior and desire and turns it in to something dirty.

So while you feel you have been delivered of some nasty habit, you have become a religious elitist to make yourself feel better.

[Taffy]

Jude 1:16 KJV These are ****murmurers,*** complainers,***** walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

From the Abundance of the HEART the Mouth Speaks , seems these hearts were not oF the ONENESS Pauls speaks of BEING IN Christ.Flesh and its Wisdom,lays beneath and Is not ONE with the Wisdom which speaks from above.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The Lust( Desire) of the Mind, SPEAKING AFter its fleshy wisdom, For those who WALK in the Flesh Liv After the Flesh, but Paul speaks of US BEING SPIRIT.

These very same folk again after their OWN LUST, seeketh THEIR own Wisdom

2Titus 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Again speaking of the WISDOM of the WORLD being Ungodliness , those who  HELD the FORM are mentioned in Rom 2:19

2 Timothy 3:2-5 KJV
(2)  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
(3)  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
(4)  Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
(5)  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

For GRACE teaches US-

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

James speaks of the Double minded Man which again is he who speaks from Beneath and from ABove ,Tis called called Confusion, which GOD IS NOT..sin BRINGS FORTH THE fruit OF DEATH, THE SIMILITUDE shown in the Garden The Tree of Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, being the LAW...Praise Him FOR every GOOD GIFT comes DOWN from ABOVE.

For Death and Life are In the POWER of the tongue , praise him FOR all men shall"""confess"" HE IS LORD

Pro 18:21 Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. 

Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Jam 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning


:icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Whew!  No subjects are safe these days!!! :bigGrin:
Interesting perspective on this masterbation thing Paul.  I was brought up in the strict disposition that it's evil, sinful and of the devil.  Nearly impossible for a teenager with exploding hormones and no real identity of who one is yet, to get a handle on it all.  I feel much rebuke and disdain in the tone of Witness's take on it . . . I find myself sort of inbetween the two of you.  

While I don't think it's to much different than any other area of weakness in us, and even though righteousness in me is not affected by what I "do", I am hesitant to openly suggest it's okay to actively pursue . . . It just seems to me to be come under the arena of self-gratification.  Now, I'm all about walking in the freedom of Christ and pursuing that easy yoke of his and I have eased up a lot on all of the previous assumptions of what is and what isn't sinful in me . . .and I've let go of almost all of it as a result.  

I guess what I'm saying is, as my sons get older and I can stop shaking from the idea of having to breach the subject with them (dry humor)  that I may approach it like everything else that has been so abused .. . "Don't beat yourself up over it, but at the same time, don't let it have control over you either . . ."

Lust does seem to be pretty closely connected to the act of doing it . . .maybe not in all cases . . .but for me, really, as touchy of a subject as this one can be . . .the application is the same as anything else . . . my relationship with the Father is first and foremost, a "personal" relationship.  It's between me and the Father . . .and as a Father to my sons, I will explain to them the negative aspects of the things that are attached to this activity, but the ultimate decision is up to the individual.  If God gives them the strength to abstain, awesome!  If they have weakness in that area, then I call upon the grace and mercy  of the Lord to continue to mature us in him, in spite of ourselves.

Maybe I feel about this as I do because of the negative stigma that my parents instilled in me when I was young . . .all I know is . . .it's a tough one to deal with, especially if your support group has an inaccurate perspective on it.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: What those that want to walk in condemnation need to be aware of is, there is a spiritual root behind every missing of the mark, not only from a personal perspective, but from an overall perspective as it relates to the Tabernacle pattern.

I have related this before but one day as I was getting ready for work the news was on, and I heard this horrible story being related about what some man did in murdering a kidnapped small child. Repulsed, sickened and angered, I spoke out to the Lord, not expecting an answer, "Lord! Why do you continue to allow such things to go on?" He said, "Well, it's YOUR (meaning the spiritual priesthood's) fault!"

Stunned, I said, "What do You mean, it's OUR fault? How could it be OUR fault?"

He said, "I made the inner court priesthood (spiritual) to be one with Head. I said I only did what I saw My Father (Head) do. When they (those in the outer court realm of the flesh) see thru a glass darkly (darkened soul) you hate your brother in your heart, they go out and murder theirs, hate and murder being as the same sin. So it's YOUR (the priesthood's) fault."

So then the principle is, that the body can only do what it sees it's head do. So any who are specifically offended by masturbation, do you not know it exists because the heart of the priesthood needs to be cleansed from preferring (desiring) their own flesh above that of their "wives" (ie. the body)? Which is why He rebuked the Pharisees (who had been made to be one with the Head in the first dispensation) telling them to clean the INSIDE of the cup, and not just the outside.

Judgment begins in the house of the Lord, and we are to judge ourselves first, lest we be judged by the same measure. Blessings....

[Paul Hazelwood]

Whew!  No subjects are safe these days!!! :bigGrin:
Interesting perspective on this masterbation thing Paul.  I was brought up in the strict disposition that it's evil, sinful and of the devil.  Nearly impossible for a teenager with exploding hormones and no real identity of who one is yet, to get a handle on it all.  I feel much rebuke and disdain in the tone of Witness's take on it . . . I find myself sort of inbetween the two of you.

It is sex in general that religion has made dirty.  Someone coming from the standpoint of being addicted to masturbation has shown me that this religious instruction is also in error.   The addiction to it has a root that has not been dealt with and it more has to do with relationships with who they are attracted to rather than the act itself.

Those that stand in the light of the letter of the law are more infuenced by mans perversion than they will ever admit.   I see a vile affection with this ministry that witness is involved in and when someone reads vile affection typically they will think of sexuality.  When a vile affection is many things, one is getting pleasure from the religious condemnation of others while sowing seeds of cursing and fear.  I know they get pleasure from it because they relate it in justification to their walk with Christ and claim they have the truth.  that makes them feel good in the walk deep in their heart knows is darkness.

Their vile affection is thinking their words and  predictions of curse and gloom is good in the eyes of their Idol of God they worship.  That idol is their own pleasure at the expense of others hearts.


I'll stake my very life on the fact that my sons while not in a state of perfection seek goodness, they seek the understanding of what is truly spiritual apart from religious perversion and they seek a life mate whoever that may be that they can love and whos heart is of the same manner.

So when these thrill seekers of religious condemnation and bondage come with their clanging voices and vile pleasures, it is them that believe they are pure in that manner that are dirty and need cleansing.

The GOOD NEWS we are to share is that they too will one day come to know the great contentment of Gods spirit and  understanding beyond thought.

[Nathan]

Whew!  No subjects are safe these days!!! :bigGrin:
Interesting perspective on this masterbation thing Paul.  I was brought up in the strict disposition that it's evil, sinful and of the devil.  Nearly impossible for a teenager with exploding hormones and no real identity of who one is yet, to get a handle on it all.  I feel much rebuke and disdain in the tone of Witness's take on it . . . I find myself sort of inbetween the two of you.

It is sex in general that religion has made dirty.  Someone coming from the standpoint of being addicted to masturbation has shown me that this religious instruction is also in error.   The addiction to it has a root that has not been dealt with and it more has to do with relationships with who they are attracted to rather than the act itself.

Those that stand in the light of the letter of the law are more infuenced by mans perversion than they will ever admit.   I see a vile affection with this ministry that witness is involved in and when someone reads vile affection typically they will think of sexuality.  When a vile affection is many things, one is getting pleasure from the religious condemnation of others while sowing seeds of cursing and fear.  I know they get pleasure from it because they relate it in justification to their walk with Christ and claim they have the truth.  that makes them feel good in the walk deep in their heart knows is darkness.

Their vile affection is thinking their words and  predictions of curse and gloom is good in the eyes of their Idol of God they worship.  That idol is their own pleasure at the expense of others hearts.


I'll stake my very life on the fact that my sons while not in a state of perfection seek goodness, they seek the understanding of what is truly spiritual apart from religious perversion and they seek a life mate whoever that may be that they can love and whos heart is of the same manner.

So when these thrill seekers of religious condemnation and bondage come with their clanging voices and vile pleasures, it is them that believe they are pure in that manner that are dirty and need cleansing.

The GOOD NEWS we are to share is that they too will one day come to know the great contentment of Gods spirit and  understanding beyond thought.

Now "that" strikes a chord Paul . . .and I can see what you're saying about those that seem to thrive on the disagreeable comments of others.  In fact, I really like how you put it. 

[CHB]

Hi Witness,

(Lev. 15:16-17) It doesn't say this is a sin, just that it is unclean. Just like it doesn't say it is a sin if a woman has a blood issue but it says it is unclean (Verse 19-30).

Witness, do you practice the things that are said in verse 19-30 when you have your period? According to what you have said it is a sin for you to have your period if it is a sin to masturbate and you must offer burnt offerings and all sorts of things to become clean again.

If you are under the law and break the least, then you are guilty of breaking the whole.

You did not answer my other question about receiving the Holy Spirit. Why?

CHB

[sven]

hmm about masturbation, I know it's a kind of taboo, in earlier days I found nothing wrong about but in the meanwhile I think it's not right, the Jehovah Witnesses say it's uncleanness but not fornication. I personally don't see it forbidden in the Bible.

Do you think if I do it sometimes knowing it's maybe not right this is a deliberate sin?

I don't do it often and am not obsessed with it, I've never slept with a girl and don't go out and this things, but I'm just a guy, I'm not perfect.

[reFORMer]

About 35 years ago I was sitting by an open window reading the Bible at a friend's house.  A wisp of vapor entered through the screen and caused me to suddenly be in another realm.  I could see multitudes of lush grasses waving in the warm breezes.  The moist atmosphere was filled with various seeds released in streams from the plants.  And I saw individual human sexuality fitting into the fecund scene, releasing superfluous seeds in the winds.  Then the attention was inside the temple of my body, in my darkened head, where, in a lower and lesser realm from where I was observing, my mind normally functioned.  "This is what I care about."  That was the gist of what was said about what God is most concerned with.  It's what we're thinking about sex.  Then the pale wisp of vapor went out of me and left through the window from whence it came.

your brother, James Rohde

[Paul Hazelwood]

I don't do it often and am not obsessed with it, I've never slept with a girl and don't go out and this things, but I'm just a guy, I'm not perfect.

Don't live in guilt that is of no positive consequence.

[Cardinal]

About 35 years ago I was sitting by an open window reading the Bible at a friend's house.  A wisp of vapor entered through the screen and caused me to suddenly be in another realm.  I could see multitudes of lush grasses waving in the warm breezes.  The moist atmosphere was filled with various seeds released in streams from the plants.  And I saw individual human sexuality fitting into the fecund scene, releasing superfluous seeds in the winds.  Then the attention was inside the temple of my body, in my darkened head, where, in a lower and lesser realm from where I was observing, my mind normally functioned.  The word to me was to the effect of:  "My care is for what your thoughts are."  Then the pale wisp of vapor went out of me and left through the window from whence it came. your brother, James Rohde

:cloud9:  And He did say Abraham's SEED, NOT seed's, being MANY, unlike the man of the Gadarenes who said we are legion, for we ARE MANY, didn't He? Blessings....