My name is Paul Cohen, and along with Victor Hafichuk, we have been given to preach the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, speaking Light against darkness parading in His Name. One error and false gospel among many is that of Universalists such as those found on this forum. Someone here, finding our writings, started a thread, which I would now like to answer. You can go there and meet me if you like, or go to our site, or write me personally.
paul@thepathoftruth.com
www.thepathoftruth.com
:cloud9: Welcome......Are you of the cohain lineage then?
May I say; I don't know you so I don't know if you even consider it possible that the Lord's Spirit is capable of quickening things to you or not, but if you have ever received revelation from the Lord, before you open yourself up to giving out more unrighteous judgment and thereby sentencing yourself to going "around the mountain" a few more times, you might want to consider that MOST of us here were shown the truth of UR by the Lord personally.
We're not here because someone here taught us this, we're here because HE taught us first, and then we found others He had taught. It is hard to kick against the pricks. Blessings to you both.....
Welcome, grab a chair and hang out for a while.
Jesus Christ is the Savior of All mankind and he's pretty good at what he does.
Man is pretty good at thinking he just won't quite gitter dun.
it was a fast revolving door you just passed through
you came in with guns ablazing yet your message was nothing new
it's sad to see sons of men turn mighty weapons upon themselves
beating down another's freedom, as if life from God is something you can sell
instead of praise and confirmation from those you chose to attack
we pay last respects to a life gone on, a lighted thread now turned black
may I offer up a prayer for you that the Father's love in you can be had
may this experience become one of joy and peace, may your listeners not be sad
to us who remain, may we realize even more the grace God has bestowed
that we ourselves realize that there for the grace of God I go
what we've been given is more precious than any costly stone
a tragedy it is, when we think we can claim it as our own.
So I encourage you to let his light shine, regardless of where you stand
show his mercy and his grace, be the love released by his hand
we are a family, called and chosen to be one of his very own
that in and of itself should be enough, to inspire all, let His seeds be sown
Blessings to you Paul . . whereever you go from here.
:cloud9: Amen....
Nathan...
that was lovely.
It really touched me.
Thank you, brother...
sparrow.
Apostles/prophets?
More information is needed, other than, this blanket statement with bound edges.
"A chief garment is traditionally worn to obscure or obstruct the truth."
peacemaker
I'm really confused about Paul. I'm not sure what his beef is in a nutshell.
As near as I can tell . . .he came here from another forum because people from here were questioning his ET position, so he came here expecting to tell everyone here why UR is a false teaching . . .which in and of itself may not have been the reason for him being silenced . .but he came in attack mode . .that sorta puts the mods on edge.
:cloud9: Who knows, he might of got set free of some things if he had been allowed to stay......or not. :dontknow:
Not so sure I'd want the position of being a mod . . .it takes a great sense of discernment and balance . . .and about a hundred other attributes I seem to be lacking in as well.
Quote from: Nathan on February 20, 2009, 08:27:57 PM
Not so sure I'd want the position of being a mod . . .it takes a great sense of discernment and balance . . .and about a hundred other attributes I seem to be lacking in as well.
Naw....all it takes is an endless supply of flowers.
Sorry Guys , the decision made was above that of the Mods...
And Molly *ya Wicked Girl you be " :icon_king:
where did ya get that dry humor!
:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2009, 08:32:17 PM
Quote from: Nathan on February 20, 2009, 08:27:57 PM
Not so sure I'd want the position of being a mod . . .it takes a great sense of discernment and balance . . .and about a hundred other attributes I seem to be lacking in as well.
Naw....all it takes is an endless supply of flowers.
:cloud9: rofl....
For my 2 cents...This is all as I understand it...they actually are UR, but I know of no one else other than their little group of maybe 8-10 that they think are saved...and they attack, condemn, and seem to set themselves up (from what I can tell) as the ones who have the answers. My concern, both from looking at their site and then the way Paul started out, was that we were going to have a MAJOR food fight, and it would perhaps serve no good purpose...God can work miracles, but if you really look at their site, I'm pretty sure you'll see they're not likely to budge AT ALL on their stance...and is anyone here likely to become a disciple of a condemning, judging, "we're the ones with the answers" type group? So there you go, IMO...I think we may be able to examine and learn from their type of thought and attitude, without actually having to literally do direct battle with Paul and Victor...Those are my thoughts on the matter...and I admit I could be wrong...yeah, being a mod does require a lot of "judgment" calls, and I for one know I miss it sometimes...No flowers here...I do :dontknow:....God's blessing, James.
QuoteFor my 2 cents...they actually are UR
that's what I thought....that is why I am confused as to their agenda. Are they saying no one has a relationship with God here? Are they setting themselves up as the 'saved' which lead the way for the rest of humanity? I'm not sure.
That's one thing I think is so interesting for us...that they are UR "like us", but then what do we learn from the rest of their message?
Quote from: Sarah on February 20, 2009, 06:24:47 PM
I'm really confused about Paul. I'm not sure what his beef is in a nutshell.
Sounds like he came looking for blood only to find leather.
Quotebut then what do we learn from the rest of their message?
What is the rest of the message? Did anyone clue in on it? It just seemed he was accusing people of not 'knowing Him' and being full of iniquity.
I'm still reeling from the fact that he is UR . . . it sure had the cold, icy feeling of the judgment of an ET. but I never went to his site either . . .I had enough of his one post that I had/have no desire to expose myself to more abuse.
Quote from: jabcat on February 20, 2009, 08:56:38 PM
My concern, both from looking at their site and then the way Paul started out, was that we were going to have a MAJOR food fight, and it would perhaps serve no good purpose...
Quotewithout actually having to literally do direct battle with Paul and Victor....
Personally I wouldn't be that worried about them.
I know that kind of people. Trying to push away their own uncertainty with a superiority complex.
Works great on a read only blog where only edited replies are posted.
In real life they get angry and soon after that they run away.
Just a troll send by satan as a test :eeew:
hi everyone... i just emailed him ,as I was reading his false prophets i encounterd people i knew personally.it really hurt to read what he said about them
God has given them revelation but they are beating up everyone with it,i don't feel a lot of love on their site.
blessings everyone :icon_king:
why was paul c. kicked off this forum? Since you were talking and guessing about the teachings on his website, why not take advantage of him being available to answer your questions or explain what he teaches? aren't you doing the same thing the sanhedrin did with Peter and the apostles? I never saw in the Bible where Paul or any of the apostles were afraid to speak to anyone or hear what they had to say. But others were threatened by what the apostles preached and didn't want to hear them. i suppose that's why they killed them.
Some posts have been removed that were deemed inappropriate. Personal attacks are not allowed on TM. Based on history of past food fights, what we knew already and then began to find out first-hand right off the bat (post removed), it was the discretion of the administrator, supported by the mods, that this would be an unfruitful, unnecessary bout of futility. Perhaps Martin or one of the other mods will address this as well. As far as the sanhedrin? This is a site that has an owner with certain expectations and requests, including rules by which the forum is run. James.
don't you consider the criticisms of paul C. personal attacks? the people here can attack him, but he can't answer you?
Have you seen the deleted posts, upon which you are then able to base your objections?
Please read the forum rules if you haven't already, one of which addresses publically objecting to/questioning moderation decisions. We're not unbending, try to not be unreasonable, and (obviously) are willing to discuss mod decisions to a point.
I do find it interesting that your first few posts are 1) focusing on this issue, and 2) so direct and challenging. Would you care to explain what your apparent interest is in this particular topic? I'm curious if you have an opinion on this issue other than the administrator's decision. James.
Oh phooey! I had my short sword drawn along with the long. I smelled the scent of battle and was ready to slice and dice. You could have let them have only one thread in Members Lounge. This old soldier knows you're wise to tell them goodbye; but, when will the blood and guts fly? They're gone unhacked to bits!! It just gives me fits! "Speak the Truth in Love," the way from above, seems unknown to these wayfarers two. "Love covers the multitude of sins."
Quote from: reFORMer on February 21, 2009, 07:44:33 AM
Oh phooey! I had my short sword drawn along with the long. I smelled the scent of battle and was ready to slice and dice. You could have let them have only one thread in Members Lounge. This old soldier knows you're wise to tell them goodbye; but, when will the blood and guts fly? They're gone unhacked to bits!! It just gives me fits! "Speak the Truth in Love," the way from above, seems unknown to these wayfarers two. "Love covers the multitude of sins."
:laugh2: :thumbsup:
Quote from: reFORMer on February 21, 2009, 07:44:33 AM
Oh phooey! I had my short sword drawn along with the long. I smelled the scent of battle and was ready to slice and dice. You could have let them have only one thread in Members Lounge. This old soldier knows you're wise to tell them goodbye; but, when will the blood and guts fly? They're gone unhacked to bits!! It just gives me fits! "Speak the Truth in Love," the way from above, seems unknown to these wayfarers two. "Love covers the multitude of sins."
"There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but forgiveness!"
James, i am a friend of Paul, and he told me yesterday he had a discussion on this forum. I checked it out to see what was happening, and i saw his posts and the replies before deletion. I saw that Paul brought up legitimate points and scriptures that were misinterpreted by the people in this forum. they were ridiculing him and not understanding what he was saying and attacking him for both his teaching and his post. They would have been helped if they would have been willing to listen.
That's what I had begun to suspect, that you were possibly somehow connected to him. What you believe is ultimately between you and God. Take care. James.
What was witnessed was a critical spirit. If you desire truth!
"Love all, trust few, if given the choice; do what is right."
peacemaker
Witness (dont' be Witless),
So much is monumental in 2 corinthians 5. I'm still working on the following from the midst of that chapter: "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them." That describes an entirely different mindset than most religious people seem even aware of as a possibility. I mean even Christians who have the basics lined up (including UR and pressing into immortality.) Like I say, I'm still working on it because it has to include true holiness if we are to be like God. But, that is His point of view of everybody. It is of the New Covenant. Can you minister it?
Romans 8:1-2, (AV)..."There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Here it is again. No condemnation is the consciousness in Christ Jesus. To not be in condemnation you must not impart condemnation. This is walking after the Spirit. What law is enforced in our lives? The law of sin unto death or the law of the Spirit of life?
I'm still working on it. Dawn is gradual, though it's rather quick. At least I have light. Not imputing anybody's sin to them! Whew!!
Quote from: reFORMer on February 21, 2009, 08:26:12 AM
Witness (dont' be Witless),
So much is monumental in 2 corinthians 5. I'm still working on the following from the midst of that chapter: "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them." That describes an entirely different mindset than most religious people seem even aware of as a possibility. I mean even Christians who have the basics lined up (including UR and pressing into immortality.) Like I say, I'm still working on it because it has to include true holiness if we are to be like God. But, that is His point of view of everybody. Can you minister it?
Romans 8:1-2, (AV)..."There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Here it is again. No condemnation is the consciousness in Christ Jesus. To not be in condemnation you must not impart condemnation. This is walking after the Spirit. What law is enforced in our lives? The law of sin unto death or the law of the Spirit of life?
I'm still working on it. Dawn is gradual, though it's rather quick. At least I have light. Not imputing anybody's sin to them! Whew!!
Quote from: Witness on February 21, 2009, 08:09:56 AM
I saw that Paul brought up legitimate points and scriptures that were misinterpreted by the people in this forum.
Or by Paul...
Quotethey were ridiculing him
Have you ever noticed his arrogant holier than you are tone?
That was a rethorical question...
Quoteand not understanding what he was saying and attacking him for both his teaching and his post.
All who don't agree are blinded. That's what you mean. Right?
QuoteThey would have been helped if they would have been willing to listen.
Advice to Paul. If he wants a bigger audience for his personal truth he better changes his hate speech to a discussion.
Quote from: Witness on February 21, 2009, 08:09:56 AM
I saw that Paul brought up legitimate points and scriptures that were misinterpreted by the people in this forum. they were ridiculing him and not understanding what he was saying and attacking him for both his teaching and his post. They would have been helped if they would have been willing to listen.
We don't need people rolling in here who believe they are the know all and end all and literally speak for God Himself - telling us who is saved and isn't, who knows God and doesn't etc. etc.
If someone wants to come in and discuss - fine. Paul has stated on his public forum that Gary (tentmaker founder) doesn't know God.
Quote: "We have also dealt with Gary Amirault of "Tentmaker," and he too does not know the Lord. He may have some true teachings, but so what? Men that do not know God are still in their sins and cannot bring one to God".
If Paul thinks he knows (online :mshock:) who is still in their sins and who is not, then good for him but online is NOT the place to (publicly) declare who is and isn't saved and who does and doesn't know God. Certainly this forum (owned by Gary) is not the place.
Simple.
Quote from: firstborn888 on February 21, 2009, 12:39:45 PM
Quote: "We have also dealt with Gary Amirault of "Tentmaker," and he too does not know the Lord. He may have some true teachings, but so what? Men that do not know God are still in their sins and cannot bring one to God".
It's fine with me if you say Gary has flaws. He's only human.
Do you need to be Godlike to teach?
If so is that why the people on your site are teaching.....?
Remember that Jesus Himself wasn't so fond, to put it mildly, with the teaching of many self proclaimed all knowing teachers.
Teaching should be about helping others grow. Not about finding things to put down others.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 21, 2009, 12:49:34 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on February 21, 2009, 12:39:45 PM
Quote: "We have also dealt with Gary Amirault of "Tentmaker," and he too does not know the Lord. He may have some true teachings, but so what? Men that do not know God are still in their sins and cannot bring one to God".
It's fine with me if you say Gary has flaws. He's only human.
Yes, we all have faults. "Gary doesn't know God"? Based on what? "Call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalt be saved". I often do it myself, and mixing law and grace doesn't work. I believe scripture says if we try to live by the law, if we fail in any area of it, we are guilty of breaking the whole law. The cross was the beginning of a new day.
Thank you for the cross, Lord
Thank you for the price You paid
Bearing all my sin and shame
In love You came
And gave amazing grace
Thank you for this love, Lord
Thank you for the nail pierced hands
Washed me in Your cleansing flow
Now all I know
Your forgiveness and embrace
Worthy is the Lamb
Seated on the throne
Crown You now with many crowns
You reign victorious
High and lifted up
Jesus Son of God
The Darling of Heaven crucified
Worthy is the Lamb
Worthy is the Lamb
Quote from: Witness on February 21, 2009, 07:30:01 AM
don't you consider the criticisms of paul C. personal attacks? the people here can attack him, but he can't answer you?
Witness,
Paul sort of attacked me and I was on his side as far as not judging others beliefs. I didn't agree with what he said but I also said I believe God is the reason for all beliefs and I have learned from all of them, but Paul said "I didn't know what I was talking about". So what are we suppose to say? I don't think he even read my post he just wanted to defend himself because he knew we didn't agree with what he had to say. I agree that he should have been allowed to stay and defend himself. I don't like it when we here on Tentmaker who believe in the salvation of all is misrepresented on other forums and we can't defend ourselves either.
CHB
Quote from: Witness on February 21, 2009, 08:09:56 AM
James, i am a friend of Paul, and he told me yesterday he had a discussion on this forum. I checked it out to see what was happening, and i saw his posts and the replies before deletion. I saw that Paul brought up legitimate points and scriptures that were misinterpreted by the people in this forum. they were ridiculing him and not understanding what he was saying and attacking him for both his teaching and his post. They would have been helped if they would have been willing to listen.
Hi Witness,
I can see and even agree with you on some levels. However, I think jabcat was just shutting down a confrontation that would result in the failure to love from weaker members of both camps. You see Witness, most of us grew out of your beliefs, I was there for over 27 years. Presently, I believe the Father sent Jesus to die on the cross for the sins of the world. It's all from God, nothing is from man. I have confessed this in the past, present and will in the future. Jesus is the only way to the Father. We are required as servants of the Christ to follow Jesus' teachings. And I have been Baptized too, both sprinkled as a baby and dunked as an adult. Yet, according to your camp, I'm not saved because I believe Jesus will reconcile
all men. You would not feel so comfortable if you were born in America in the year 30 A.D. with no access to the knowledge of Jesus. How would you have confess his name witness? Just know billions have lived and died, and knew not of any choice.
Paul C started his post out as a challenge, listing his web site and claiming the authority to proclaim the teachings of the Christ, as if he was God's gift to the 21st century. He would have fit right in with out the challenge part! :laughing7:
Seriously, shutting him down prevented loose tongues from failing to love each other. Maybe in the future, with a new start, he can begin again with out the chest pounding. It's OK to disagree.
Paul
hi witness... i was wondering how you knew of dick dewert("false prophet"?as cohen claims)but i guess they run the farm harvest haven in alberta close to dick's home.
cohen claims to have had a dream ,where he only knows the true will of God.all those that don't convert to his way of thinking are cursed and bad things will happen to them.
cohen says talking back to him(not agreeing),is the same as spitting God in the face!
I understand God will give dreams and visions to young and old and pour out his spirit on all flesh... not just cohen's
I hope he doesn't take himself too seriously,because this creates a heavy burden.God is in control beleive it or not
blessings :icon_king:
Quote from: onlytruth on February 21, 2009, 10:53:46 PM
cohen claims to have had a dream ,where he only knows the true will of God.all those that don't convert to his way of thinking are cursed and bad things will happen to them.
cohen says talking back to him(not agreeing),is the same as spitting God in the face!
I understand God will give dreams and visions to young and old and pour out his spirit on all flesh... not just cohen's
God is in control beleive it or not
blessings :icon_king:
One of my old standby understandings...God will not give revelations, "understandings", visions, dreams, that contradict His written Word to us...we may have deeper understandings, revelations, new views of spiritual layers within scripture, etc., but IMO, they will always line up with accurately translated, correctly divided scripture...so if I thought God gave me a vision that said I was the only one and I needed to condemn and judge everyone else...sorry, but there's plenty of scripture that would prove otherwise. My :2c:.
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
After reviewing this website mentioned for the last seventy-two hours:
"Beware of those who make claims to know the hearts of men!"
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on February 22, 2009, 08:24:57 AM
"Beware of those who make claims to know the hearts of men!"
:LH:
Debunked by his own arrogance :winkgrin:
Boy, isn't that ironic? With what measure we mete....
"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly among them about all their ungodly deeds which they have committed impiously, and about all the harsh words which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
Many operate under the guise of righteous judgment to the exclusion of all others, which sounds very much like that of a cult, or an "us" and "them" mentality. Unfortunately, this form of deception will consist of ninety percent or better, truth, with ten percent or less, falsehood.
"All that is necessary, is that you agree; not having a renewed mind of your own."
It's a one, on one relationship, where the marriage bed is undefiled.
"Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a right spirit within me!"
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on February 23, 2009, 02:20:34 AM
Unfortunately, this form of deception will consist of ninety percent or better, truth, with ten percent or less, falsehood.
peacemaker
IMO, that's what makes deceit, deceit. If it screams "WATCH OUT, I'M DECEIT", then we wouldn't be drawn to it and hurt by it. But if it has enough truth, or even the appearance of truth, yet the core and outcome of the message is destruction, then if not careful, we can get sucked in by it. There's a reason the wolf comes in sheep's clothing. God's blessing, James.
Paul c. has now posted a response to many of you on his website. he was barred from answering you here, so you can see his answers to you there.
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/blogwars/tentmaker.htm
Pierac, I do not believe in eternal hell. you can view my welcome page from a few days ago.
James, are you saying there are no teachers sent from God? like ones that you would have to listen to?
what dream are you referring to that paul had, onlytruth?
Isaiah 29:10-21, (YLT)...
19 And the humble have added joy in Jehovah, And the poor among men In the Holy One of Israel rejoice.
20 For ceased hath the terrible one, And consumed hath been the scorner, And cut off have been all watching for iniquity,
21 Causing men to sin in word, And for a reprover in the gate lay a snare, And turn aside into emptiness the righteous.
Quote from: Witness on February 23, 2009, 06:56:51 AM
Paul c. has now posted a response to many of you on his website. he was barred from answering you here, so you can see his answers to you there.
Witness - sorry, those guys are a bit nuts. God sovereignly met me and 'saved' me over 30 years ago. What these gentlemen have to say to any us is of no consequence whatsoever. The works of Jesus are to uphold the widows and the orphans and to break oppression (in REAL LIFE) not this online judging B.S.
I feel sorry for the whole group but I'm curious - how did you get mixed up in all this?
Blessings and peace upon all humanity. :happygrin:
I am absolutely not saying that Witness, and I'm not sure how you could get that out of my post(s). I do thank you though for asking in the kind manner in which you did. My last post is talking about deceit and deceivers, without naming any specific names. I personally don't judge Paul or Victor, or anyone's salvation. If God has chosen them in this Age, and they've believed upon Him as their Savior, then as far as I'm concerned they're my brothers in the Lord. However, in a family, some family members are just too hard to get along with to make you want, or be able to, spend much time with them. Some folks in a family just aren't very good dinner companions.
I think what I wrote is scriptural, and can be used by any of us in our daily walk. Speaking of which, if a teacher says they are sent from God, but then has experiences and behaviors that are clearly against scripture, then IMO, (not the person, the soul, their spirit) but their teachings, are to be examined and rejected. We are admonished in scripture to be on guard, be aware, measure what people say against scripture. So that's what I'm talking about. Examine the message...search the scriptures "to see if these things are so". A few pertinent scriptures that come to mind are "live peaceably with all men as much as is possible"..."judge not that you be not judged".."with whatever measure [of judgment] you mete, it shall be meted to you"...
Also then, these scriptures..."call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved"..."believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"...if folks have done that, what right do I or anyone else have to go against clear scripture and condemn those folks? (Another scripture here..."let the wheat and tares grow together"...God will sort it out on the threshing floor...judgment, vengence, and redemption are the Lord's.)
Bottom line...if anyone says they're a teacher sent from God, but display an unGodly attitude and directly behave against scripture, God will be their final judge and deal with them (and all of us) accordingly. In the meantime, I'm told to be aware, to be careful, to not be carried away by every wind of doctrine.
Take care, James.
"Man cannot comprehend the existence of error, when to deeply immersed in it."
The change wrought in me by the Holy Spirit was when I had many things in my mind I thought were the truth. I had been raised in such teachings. I progressively found over the next 40 years how so much of it was wrong and in many ways. I've also failed many times. But, I'd have to say I now relate to the presence of God in an intimacy I didn't know in the beginning. Though God worked in astounding ways, numerous miracles--and I did know Him then--it's so very much better now. He starts with us where we are to bring us with Him to where He is.
It seems these don't recognize this development of our relationship, our growth in grace and knowledge of the Lord which was true even of Jesus, our ever more accurate adjustment to the truth and our advancing in the image and likeness of God.
Quote from: firstborn888 on February 23, 2009, 08:40:53 AM
The works of Jesus are to uphold the widows and the orphans and to break oppression (in REAL LIFE) not this online judging B.S.
I feel sorry for the whole group
To temper my rather harsh statements let me add that 'they' may very well be doing what they believe is the Lord's work and are truly trying to help folks. :sigh:
So be it.... :Sparkletooth:
You also said you feel sorry for the whole group, which is a caring thing, right? I too feel concern for Witness...
After reading Paul's reply to many, the spirit is familiar. I have seen those who hound the 'Jezebel spirit' and attack with scripture as a weapon. It is evil. These are wolves bloodied from devouring the sheep. I saw a vision of this once, wolves snarling, bloodied, and waiting for the sheep. These are the ones Jesus said to beware of because they have power to throw your soul into Gehenna.
I also found it a bit problematic in that he's posted things on his site with my name attached that I never said . . .something about me telling him he needs to repent . . .good grief . . . with remarks like that being either made up or misdirected, it's no wonder there's a chasm there. I sent him an email on the issue . . .see where it goes from there.
Judging his anger he's just a undercover ET.
Just ignore him. His only pleasure is fighting. The teaching part is just front...
Quote from: Witness on February 21, 2009, 06:51:11 AM
But others were threatened by what the apostles preached and didn't want to hear them. i suppose that's why they killed them.
Hi witness,
In Pauls reply on his site he wrote this.
QuotePaul Hazelwood, you say that Jesus Christ being Savior of all mankind is good enough for everyone, no need to contend for the faith.
The problem I have is that I never said "no need to contend for the faith"
The very fact that I continually state Gods love is sufficient for all in the face of objections is contending for the faith.
I will look forward to this being added to his site in the light of his preaching of the truth..............
:cloud9: Dear Paul; After reading your comments to me, I have decided to take one part seriously. I have never in 23 years of walking with the Lord been accused of spouting out RELIGIOUS garbage, therefore I have concluded I must be backslidden and will work on that immediately (tongue planted firmly in cheek). :mshock: :winkgrin:
Seriously though, I have just added you and your members to my prayer list. God bless, no hard feelings. Cardinal
nathan, the part you think is a second comment from you is actually paul's answer to you.
Hi All,
I went to Paul's website and read a little but never could figure out exactly what they believe. Are they ET'rs or Universalist, or something else? From what I read it didn't sound as if they were Universalists.
CHB
hi witness;below are some excerpts i found(the dream comment came from here)
i personally emailed paul,and he has responded .I won't converse with him anymore due to the fact he has a mean side that i don't want poured out on me.blessings fred :icon_king:
Copied from http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com
"Robert, Paul Cohen here.
We have dealt with many religious vipers. You have proven yourself to be just another of the brood by your reactions here, no different than those you thought to leave behind, except you are less restrained in expression because not bound by a false "Christian" front. You no longer have the need to justify yourself as righteous, so you don't give a damn what you say to whom.
There is nothing, however, in what we have said or done towards you that is worthy of your derisive responses. On the contrary, we have been straightforward with you, something you prize in yourself, but for which you hypocritically despise us. We are not railing on you or condemning you, and have not said anything to you except what is pertinent and true.
Since you have despised all decent, wholesome conversation, and have thrown caution to the wind regarding the wisdom of a responsible, respectful tongue, your Maker will therefore require it of you.
You are not dealing with more religious phonies here. We know what we are talking about. What you have replied to Victor, you have said to God. In other words, you have spit in His face. Saying it will not go well for you is putting it mildly. Mark your calendar, and these words. It will not take long before you know the truth of them."
"Paul,
Thank you for the entertaining response. My blog readers are already enjoying our adventures together, and I'm sure they'll get a kick out of this turn of events.
Now, since you've started pronouncing voodoo curses upon those you despise, let's get down to specifics: exactly when shall my maker "require my tongue?" You've said I should mark my calendar, but how convenient for you that you don't provide a date. Shall I mark every single day from now to eternity as "Could die today?" Seems a little tautological. So, in order for your curse to have any remote amount of credibility, you really should put a time frame on it. If I die of mouth cancer 30 years from now would that count? And if pronouncing such a curse on me isn't prophecy, then what is?
Or perhaps you mean for me to set my own deadline, since your God's obviously shy about setting dates himself? How about this: if a week goes by and it "goes well for me," and I don't "lose my tongue" in some ghoulishly ironic way, let's say I've beaten your little curse, shall we? After that, the board is again open for the many other curses placed upon me by God's numerous other witch doctors who have prior claims.
I laugh. You are worse than false prophets. You are pious frauds who prey on others' fears. Unfortunately for you, I not only don't believe in your imaginary friend, I don't believe in magic spells either. But I do have something you don't that is far more powerful: public ridicule. The whole world is now watching: everyone who searches for your names will see our exchanges and deride you and Victor for the pitiful charlatans you are. Many who read your Path Of Truth web site will search for more information, find these pages, and turn away— relieved that they didn't go anywhere near you. Even your own followers will find these pages and wonder where your power is. Some of them may even (horrors) learn to think for themselves.
Welcome to the 21st century, and try not to bang your head on it any harder than you already have, OK?
Robert "
"shameonyou Says:
July 28th, 2008 at 8:59 am
These guys are just a typical cult - according to their delusional story, God appeared in Victor's dream one day and told him to go out and get poeple converted. Victor is the only man who knows the will of God in this world and all sorts of terrible things will happen to whoever doesn't follow him. WATCH OUT, PEOPLE!!! They appear to be harmless outside and sell organic food at Harvest Haven in Alberta, Canada but what they are actually doing behind the friendly faces is so appalling - causing family destructions by depriving innocent children of their mothers and setting concerned parents against their children. If there really is God, they are the ones who should be marking their calendar for their own miserable fate.
"
I went and read some of the responses of Paul Cohen.
It appears that Paul Cohen has nothing good to say about any of us. Is this the attitude us Christians should have? There is not one bit of love in any of his responses to any of us. I did not say any thing that I thought was against him. I only said no one has all of the truth but Paul seems to think he does, even though the apostle Paul said "we know in part" and "we see through a glass darkly".
I, like Cardinal will put Paul Cohen on my prayer list.
I have one last thing to say to Paul. Jesus said "by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, that you have love one for another".
(Rom. 11: 10) Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love.
(1Cor. 13:4-5) Charity suffereth long, and is kind, charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up. Doeth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil
I think we all should show more charity.
CHB
Quote from: Witness on February 23, 2009, 07:59:24 PM
nathan, the part you think is a second comment from you is actually paul's answer to you.
Ah ha . . . I do believe you're right . . .
Nathan, you ought to seek to please God, not men. Entertaining men in the Name of Christ is treachery against God. You need to repent. So my comment on him being silenced would then be percieved by him more a feather in his cap . . .that comment provoked this response? That I seek to please men? Is he kidding me???
Dude, I understand that we're to give each other the benefit of the doubt and I for one try not to be quick to shoot off a quick, knee-jerk response. But basically what he's doing with his website now is armchair quarterbacking. He knows nothing of who I am . .if he did, the cheap shot of accusing me of trying to please men would never have been considered, let alone uttered . ..so do this . . .
Tell your friend that I am a pastor of a denominational church that is a self-proclaimed heretic. I make no bones about it. I know where I stand and I don't disagree with all of their decrees, but I do know that they disagree with most of mine. And I'm sure the time will come when I will be a pastor of the same flock, just in a different building with a different label. But for now . . .if I were out to please men . . .I would definitely not be the heretic I just confessed that I am. I would not have been open to consider that the traditional church just may be the percentage that has allowed another gospel to infiltrait in it's sanctuaries.
I do not condemn the church or anyone. I don't believe that is my position or responsibility. Nor do I order others their need to repent . . .as your friend has again done with me. The Holy Ghost that he assumes is in him, I believe is in me . .and I don't think the role of conviction should come from any man to any other man . .only through the spirit. . .he's much more capable of bringing me into a place of repentance than any man.
Sometimes I wonder just how mature we really are. I'm pretty sure, we're no where near as mature as we "think" we are. I'm sure God is not at all pleased with the attitudes from either side of this issue when we begin the mudslinging. For me, putting the other first, would be to see the reasoning as to why a person chose to act a certain way . . .give them some grace on the matter . . .but the quick-draw judgments just are not to be found in Scripture that so many use as their ammunition.
At what point in our lives do we allow our weapons to be turned into plowshares?
Quote from: NathanAt what point in our lives do we allow our weapons to be turned into plowshares?
When we are overwhelmed, crushed even, at the beauty and majesty of our God?
Oooooh . . ..goood answer!!! By way of revelation from the Father!! :bgdance:
:cloud9: Amen.... :thumbsup:
Just scanning over that site that witness offered to us of Paul's . . .this guy has issues with pretty much everybody . ..UR is just a tip of his iceburg. He's got a list of over 70 prominant people that he deems as false teachers . . .I find it amusing that Aimee Semple McPherson is one of them . . .she happens to be the founder of the denomination I am a part of . . .his beef with her is that she is a woman in an authoritive position . . .he has Joyce Meyer on his list as well . .Billy Grahm . .Benny Hinn . . a bunch of them on there that apparently are going to hell?
So I guess it's not just us . . .
Hi Paul
After reading a little on ya web site and ANSWERS
Im tickled, :icon_flower:
Ya Know this is a Forum, sorta Has guidelines for those who post ...they apply to all ,..EVEN YOU....
JUST Maybe, if ya came in discussed in a civil manner , ya still be here....as Martin says..MAYBE that time will come..and many here will welcome you, along with sharing thier Understanding..Ya think ya can do that?
and dont go all MATH 23 on us PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE....COME let us DISCUSS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^TOGETHER ++++++++++,...cant be hard can it bro.
you have good day now :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
to Martin, in response to the post in the other thread (Re: "deadly error")-
Martin, how can you assume someone's ministry is rooted in Christ just because they hold certain doctrines? doesn't the Lord judge the hearts and not only what the lips say?
Matthew 15:8-9 This people draws nigh unto me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. (9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
and doesn't He send His people to do that work?
John 13:20 HNV Most certainly I tell you, he who receives whomever I send, receives me; and he who receives me, receives him who sent me.
I don't understand how you can say you haven't forbidden anyone from preaching christ and him crucified. what Paul described in those verses is how paul C. came to you - "in demonstration of the Spirit and of power".
you say no tit-for-tat silliness is allowed on your forum. why then are there all the smiley faces and mockery about the serious things that Paul was telling you? do you think he was joking?
how do you know paul came on for the purpose to divide? what if his purpose was instead to give you the light he saw you were so lacking? most (if not all) of the people here HAVE opened their mouths against a brother of Christ. and i have to tell you, Martin, that you HAVE already trod under foot the blood of the covenant.
Here is the verse about Diotrephes:
3 John 1:9 MKJV I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, did not receive us.
can you not see that this is the very thing you have done against Paul? he came speaking to you by God, and you would not receive him.
after reading the post that started all of this ("deadly error..."), I have to say it wasn't a matter of doctrine to Paul, it was a matter of - what are you teaching people? if believers are told they need to endure to the end to be saved, how can we just say "everyone's OK, because he's saving everyone."? what about the process of salvation? what about the scriptures Paul brought up in his replies to you? you can't convince me that they were only written for the Jewish people, because the Bible was given for all believers!
Isaiah 58-
2) For day after day they seek me out;
they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
isn't that exactly what happened here, on this forum? these people claim to know God and to want to know god, but when a man from God answered them, they shut him down.
And Paul was obeying verse 1-
Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
and to the house of Jacob their sins.
and Jude-
Jude 1:3 KJV Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Quote from: Witness on February 24, 2009, 12:41:35 AM
doesn't the Lord judge the hearts
There is not one human being that lives up to this belief perfectly and that includes me, you and the person you defend.
The problem here is, again, a constant division whether it be from members here or you, or Paul C. But who rightly tries to admit that and seek unity?
Why did Paul C. need to assume what my forum post conveys by adding "his" words to what "I" posted.
How is that living up to the very words you are coming here and saying? For Paul to "Decide" who are "men of God" by self proclaiming he is sent from God is arrogant and a perversion of the very statement I quoted above.
Quote from: Witness on February 24, 2009, 12:41:35 AM
paul C. came to you - "in demonstration of the Spirit and of power".
:cloud9: I know you directed your post at Martin, but I don't think he will mind if I comment on this part of this sentence quoted above, as he has so many other things to reply to. This statement, more than any other, just bowled me over. I'm not saying this to be mean spirited, but you obviously have no idea what it means to come in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power, if that is what you think Paul C. did in coming here, and that is alarming, and only confirms that all of you need prayer badly, and I ask you to forgive me for my joking earlier as clearly this is no joking matter. Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on February 24, 2009, 01:13:41 AM
Quote from: Witness on February 24, 2009, 12:41:35 AM
paul C. came to you - "in demonstration of the Spirit and of power".
:cloud9: I know you directed your post at Martin, but I don't think he will mind if I comment on this part of this sentence quoted above, as he has so many other things to reply to. This statement, more than any other, just bowled me over. I'm not saying this to be mean spirited, but you obviously have no idea what it means to come in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power, if that is what you think Paul C. did in coming here, and that is alarming, and only confirms that all of you need prayer badly, and I ask you to forgive me for my joking earlier as clearly this is no joking matter. Blessings.....
Quoteisn't that exactly what happened here, on this forum? these people claim to know God and to want to know god, but when a man from God answered them, they shut him down.
Ya beat me too it C :icon_flower:
Christ the POWER aand WISDOM of God....
:icon_flower:
Wisdom, can you please tell me how you know these men are such powerful teachers that are sent from God to straighten so many others out...as opposed to say, 10 other men/women of renown that minister from God's Word? Why are you so convinced they are to be listened to, perhaps even above all others? Again, lest it be misunderstood...I DO NOT judge these men's salvation, or their relationship with God. That is only known to God. But would you please answer my questions? Bottom line, how did you become convinced, and on what do you base your apparent opinion, that these men are to be set up above others as judges?
Take care,
James.
When a group or man claims to be the only one who has been chosen to know the truth, that throws up a red flag to me. I have been involved with such a group. I learned the hard way that no one has all the truth. The World Wide Church of God claimed to be THE true Church, the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and Herbert W Armstrong was the leader.
Witness, my advice to you is, run as fast as you can from this group. Once you are free from it you will be able to see through the deception it portrays. Take a look at all the other men who claimed to be a prophet, or chosen of God to proclaim the truth. Since the apostles, I don't believe God has chosen ONE man to give the rest of us the whole truth.
CHB
Hi all, as most of you know I have not been around much of late so I really don't know the extent of what happened concerning Paul Cohen. But maybe just maybe tents jumped the gun in banning him, after all we all see scripture a little differently.
Maybe he did come across as a know it all, but we all have our own style of writing, I have been accused of this as well as Craig has, but both myself and Craig if he was still here would tell you that we know we do not know it all but put forth what we see as of right now.
So the only concern for me would be Paul saying who is and who is not a child of God based on what he supposes us to believe, it just might be he does not understand what we believe because each of us has a different view on how God works out the salvation of all.
What Paul C. needs to realise, that he does not seem to, is that a child of God whether he understands everything perfectly is still a child of God. Paul ( the Apostle) never said those who believed in Christ were not children of God but he did say they were babes in Christ and still had need for milk and were not yet ready for strong meat.
Paul C if you read this I hope you can see this principle of the difference between those drinking milk and those eating meat and take it to heart.
I have not read much of what Paul wrote on his site but from what I have read he does have a point, which he brings out in his thread called
"The deadly error of the Universalists"
You will note He does not state the deadly error of Universalism, he states the deadly error OF THE UNIVERSALISTS, which is a BIG difference.
From his comments below, it seems to me that Paul believes in the salvation of all, but he see an error in the way some Universalists present how God is going to accomplish that salvation.
Here is his statement
QuoteThere is one fundamental and deadly error in the teaching and preaching of the Universalists, and it is not the doctrine of universal salvation. The reconciliation of all things is a wonderful truth promised by God, the Lord Jesus Christ being declared both the beginning and the end of all things. It is written that to Him every knee shall bow, and all will know Him, from the least to the greatest. That is the Good News of God, which we do not dispute, but joyously affirm. Where the Universalists deviate from the truth is that they think to have found, and preach to others, another way to Heaven. As it is written: "But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you beside what we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).
So how is it the Universalists so grievously err? Where have they gone astray?
Their error is this: The Universalists disregard the God-ordained principles and requirements by which one gets to the place of which they preach, which is salvation and peace with God and man. Therefore they never get there themselves, and neither do their listeners who follow them.
So it seems to me he is a believer in the salvation of all, but holds to a working out of that salvation in each and every life by the principles and requirements God has put forth in His word, which I also hold to and I know a few others on this board also hold to taking up our cross and dying daily principal.
So it might not be his message but the way he puts forth his message that people here have taken issue with.
Here is a question that a lady asked here awhile back and my response to it, I post it again in hopes that both Paul C and those who have had issue with what Paul C has said might understand the difference between the reconciliation which is pasts and the salvation which is promised as I believe this is where at least in part some of the confusion has come in.
Why preach the gospel at all?
For me the reason Jesus was sent and the reason Jesus sends us is to free people through Him from sin and death. Salvation is not complete just because one believes Jesus died for them. Believing is only the starting point on our journey toward full salvation, for we are reconciled by His death, but saved by His life.
All men everywhere are already reconciled by His death, this is a done deal because He died 2000 years ago for all men's reconciliation and mans belief or unbelief CANNOT change this fact. If someone does not believe Jesus died for then simply does not change the fact that He did.
So then all men everywhere have already been reconciled, but not all men are yet saved from sin and death.
Therefore Jesus send us out in order to proclaim His salvation by His LIFE.
His death reconciled all men, but His LIFE is what saves all men, this salvation is not a one time deal as such, but is a long process of walking in His LIFE and forsaking our own. Taking up the cross and following Him and enduring unto the end that we might be saved.
Thus we are told to proclaim His death and therefore His reconciliation for all men as a FACT that cannot be disputed , and we are to do this so that the entire world can have the same hope in His LIFE that we to have. Thus it is not by His death that sin and death are defeated but by His LIFE.
When we witness about that which Jesus done, we are first to tell all men that they have been reconciled because of His death, this fact breathes hope into the world that God does indeed love them. Then after people become aware of the fact of this reconciliation by His death we are to proclaim His resurrection. And it is because of the fact that He was resurrected OUT OF DEATH that the world is given hope of the same resurrection OUT OF DEATH. We are NOT saved from death, we are saved OUT OF DEATH, for it was while we were DEAD in sin that He died and was raised to life again for us.
So the resurrection is a moving from DEATH to LIFE, so as He died for all men, so to did He rise for all men, and this is the gospel of the good new toward ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.
If one believes Jesus died for all men, should it not go without saying that when He rose again that it was for all men also? Can we really separate His death from His resurrection? If so, how then can DEATH be swallowed up of LIFE?
God bless
Quote from: pneuma on February 24, 2009, 06:53:02 PM
"The deadly error of the Universalists"
You will note He does not state the deadly error of Universalism, he states the deadly error OF THE UNIVERSALISTS, which is a BIG difference.
Hi Scott,
The point is that in his own mind only his exact thoughts on universalism are true. Everyting that's a fraction different is 'deadly'
If he had presented his views in a gentle/modest way I'm sure his thread now woulf have been many pages long.
But because his warmonger attitude he got nothing besides the joy of putting some hate posts on his blog.
QuoteHi Scott,
HI WW good to see you still around these parts.
QuoteThe point is that in his own mind only his exact thoughts on universalism are true.
Bro did he say only his exact thoughts on universalism are true? Or is it perhaps people here misunderstood him? I'm asking because like I said I was not here for what took place and I hate to see a brother banned for what may have been just a misunderstanding.
QuoteEveryting that's a fraction different is 'deadly'
I actually agree with that sentiment bro as there is only ONE truth, and anytime mans view is in place you will find that fraction deadly. My only problem here would be if Paul C thinks he knows all the truth for scripture itself tells us And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
But I am not sure Paul C is saying he knows everything, if he indeed is then he would do well to heed the scripture I just posted.
QuoteIf he had presented his views in a gentle/modest way I'm sure his thread now woulf have been many pages long.
But because his warmonger attitude he got nothing besides the joy of putting some hate posts on his blog.
Again could this not be a misunderstanding of the way some people post?
I've been around these forum enough to see all manner of postings, some people come in with guns blazing and other hardly say much at all.
I am not in any way picking on anyone here especially the mods, it's a tough job, one not to be desired, and they take the brunt of this type of thing.
Of course saying people are not children of God who believe in Christ is off base but it might be Paul C did not take into account the difference in age (spiritually) of Gods children. And if that is the case it might be that pointing this out to him might have corrected his error and I hope he reads this and realises his error in doing that. Force feeding a babe meat just chokes the baby is a good rule to remember when speaking of the things of God, yet we have ALL been guilty of doing it.
Again guys I am not pointing any fingers I just hate to see someone banned until all options have been explored. I guess I just may have empathy for those who get banned because I have had it done to me.
Peace and God bless
Hi Scott...have you been to his web site? If not, I think that might shed a lot of light. I guess that is, unless someone actually agrees with that type of POV :dontknow:. Although I personally didn't actually hit the ban button, I think the ban was perhaps a matter of discernment as much as anything. Sort of a "oh boy, here we go..this won't end good, and in the meantime, it's going to be a terrible mess". And again, posts have been removed from here, so the full evidence upon which to base opinions is not present.
Quote from: pneuma on February 24, 2009, 09:58:43 PM
QuoteHi Scott,
QuoteThe point is that in his own mind only his exact thoughts on universalism are true.
Bro did he say only his exact thoughts on universalism are true? Or is it perhaps people here misunderstood him?
IMO the first. But many here have similar thoughts about their own version of UR. What really makes the diffrence is how you communicate. When you block my driveway I can nicely ask you to move your car. Or I can ask with my riotgun.
Same question. Different attitude.
QuoteEveryting that's a fraction different is 'deadly'
QuoteI actually agree with that sentiment bro as there is only ONE truth, and anytime mans view is in place you will find that fraction deadly.
True. But only Father/Son/HS know things 100%. So claiming you know all is claiming your on their level....
QuoteBut I am not sure Paul C is saying he knows everything, if he indeed is then he would do well to heed the scripture I just posted.
Maybe he doesn't think he's foolproof. But he hides it well with "I come to inform" instead of "I understand it like..."
QuoteIf he had presented his views in a gentle/modest way I'm sure his thread now would have been many pages long.
But because his warmonger attitude he got nothing besides the joy of putting some hate posts on his blog.
QuoteAgain could this not be a misunderstanding of the way some people post?
Both the writer and the readers are not perfect.
But if you take a (quick) look at his site you will see his tone isn't exactly gently. Toward gary his conclusion is... well something close to godless/heretic.
QuoteI guess I just may have empathy for those who get banned because I have had it done to me.
Scott,
Being banned on CARM is doesn't count as something bad :laughing7:
Quote from: jabcat on February 24, 2009, 10:12:54 PM
Hi Scott...have you been to his web site? If not, I think that might shed a lot of light. I guess that is, unless someone actually agrees with that type of POV :dontknow:. Although I personally didn't actually hit the ban button, I think the ban was perhaps a matter of discernment as much as anything. Sort of a "oh boy, here we go..this won't end good, and in the meantime, it's going to be a terrible mess". And again, posts have been removed from here, so the full evidence upon which to base opinions is not present.
Yo Scott
Not all is what seems to appear bro, Maybe ya missed certain deleted Posts...we are not talking disagreement..but whole hearted Judgment.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: jabcat on February 24, 2009, 10:12:54 PM
Hi Scott...have you been to his web site? If not, I think that might shed a lot of light. I guess that is, unless someone actually agrees with that type of POV :dontknow:. Although I personally didn't actually hit the ban button, I think the ban was perhaps a matter of discernment as much as anything. Sort of a "oh boy, here we go..this won't end good, and in the meantime, it's going to be a terrible mess". And again, posts have been removed from here, so the full evidence upon which to base opinions is not present.
Hi Jab, I only read a little under the error of what universalsit beleive, but have sence posting my post here I have read some of his replies to the posters here and no I don't like that type of attitude of judgment but it could be a response of being banned from here, you know like someone getting their nicker all up in a bunch. Only God knows for sure. Anyway its not my place to pass judgment on anyone and if you can get pasts his posts directed at those on this board he does have some good things to say. Eat the meat spit out the bones.
QuoteIMO the first. But many here have similar thoughts about their own version of UR. What really makes the diffrence is how you communicate. When you block my driveway I can nicely ask you to move your car. Or I can ask with my riotgun.
Same question. Different attitude.
:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: you crack me up bro, but tis true nonetheless
Quote from: Taffy on February 24, 2009, 10:21:29 PM
Quote from: jabcat on February 24, 2009, 10:12:54 PM
Hi Scott...have you been to his web site? If not, I think that might shed a lot of light. I guess that is, unless someone actually agrees with that type of POV :dontknow:. Although I personally didn't actually hit the ban button, I think the ban was perhaps a matter of discernment as much as anything. Sort of a "oh boy, here we go..this won't end good, and in the meantime, it's going to be a terrible mess". And again, posts have been removed from here, so the full evidence upon which to base opinions is not present.
Yo Scott
Not all is what seems to appear bro, Maybe ya missed certain deleted Posts...we are not talking disagreement..but whole hearted Judgment.
:icon_flower:
Taffy like I said bro I am not judging the mods here for banning him, obviously things transpired here that I am not aware of, I only question if deleting post and banning is the proper method of dealing with these type of things.
Let me give you a senerio a new reader comes here and see Paul C posts and wonders what all the fuss is about so they go and check out Pauls site and see that he says he was banned for comming here to profess the truth, you as mods here are privy to why he was banned as you say it was not what he beleived is why he was banned but the way he presented himself which is contrary to the rules of this board.
So the reader looks over all Pauls posts and see nothing that he said that was against the rule (as the mods deleted those posts) what impression does that give the reader?
Two camps (his and tents) saying two different reasons for the banning, whose the reader to beleive?
For myself I would have left the posts for the proof is in the pudding so to speak and they would either condem or uplift as the case may be.
Can you understand my reasoning? Would this not provide the truth/proof of the two reasons given?
I guess it is just the different way people view things bro, you guys view things different then me, not saying I am right and you guys wrong, just giving a different perspective to uphold the inegrity of this board. I would have first warned him publically about his conduct, locked the tread, but left all evedence in view for all to see, and if he did not change his conduct then banned him.
Now heres the critical point, by deleting his post you have done more to promote his web site then if you had of left the post for all to see, for now people will go there to see what all the fuss is about.
That's why I checked out his site, I could not see any reason in his posts that would be the cause of his being banned.
Hope you can see were I am comming from bro and again this is NOT a judgment against you mods, it just a different view on the way I see how things could be run, whether better or worse, I truly do not know, but think about it.
Some people can orchestrate a scenario on purpose. The mods have set up a system and Paul C knew he would get banned.
The posts that remain in that thread are not personal character attacks nor are they judgments about the standing Paul C has with God. His post was mainly slights of character disguised as some kind of biblical admonishion.
It was likely intentional to give him more justification for his nonsense. Now he can play martyr and act like that proves he is correct. It does nothing of the sort. It's not provable but I stand by that charge of judgment willing to be judged in the same measure on this one.
Quote from: pneuma on February 24, 2009, 11:07:30 PM
obviously things transpired here that I am not aware of, I only question if deleting post and banning is the proper method of dealing with these type of things.
Paul C. says when he speaks to you it is God speaking to you. He says if you reject what he says you are rejecting God and spitting in God's face. Then he proceeds to prophesy curses that will take place because you have rejected God.
Any reader can go to his site and confirm what I have said above. It's a no brainer that what these guys say is nonsense unless you actually believe they are God's chosen above all men on earth and that they are God's exclusive spokes people. If so you need to hang on their every word or God will curse you :thumbdown:
He just needs a good psychiatrist to work his problems out. :winkgrin:
hi pneuma... i shouldn't have told cohen to check his judgement about a friend of mine.
because what came in response was pretty much a curse on my life and i now should live in holy terror according to him and victor.
i am not fearful, because truly greater is he who is in me!
he showed no love, no compassion,no mercy...just control through fear mongering.i've been intimadated by enough of well meaning christians that i know better, to turn away.
i will not correspond with him anymore,i feel sorry that he can't love,he is missing out on the abundant life.
blessings :icon_king:
Quote from: onlytruth on February 25, 2009, 12:57:41 AM
i am not fearful, because truly greater is he who is in me!
i will not correspond with him anymore,i feel sorry that he can't love,he is missing out on the abundant life.
blessings :icon_king:
Good for you ot :thumbsup:
Quote from: onlytruth on February 25, 2009, 12:57:41 AM
hi pneuma... i shouldn't have told cohen to check his judgement about a friend of mine.
because what came in response was pretty much a curse on my life and i now should live in holy terror according to him and victor.
i am not fearful, because truly greater is he who is in me!
:cloud9: Unbelievable.... :mshock:
Quote from: jabcat on February 24, 2009, 01:21:48 AM
Wisdom, can you please tell me how you know these men are such powerful teachers that are sent from God to straighten so many others out...as opposed to say, 10 other men/women of renown that minister from God's Word? Why are you so convinced they are to be listened to, perhaps even above all others? Again, lest it be misunderstood...I DO NOT judge these men's salvation, or their relationship with God. That is only known to God. But would you please answer my questions? Bottom line, how did you become convinced, and on what do you base your apparent opinion, that these men are to be set up above others as judges?
Take care,
James.
yes, James-
a number of years ago, I was caught in the system of false Christianity. Through victor and paul's preaching, god showed me that He is not in anything that is formalized by doctrines - he did not come to give us doctrine! He came to give us life!!! in obedience to these men of god, i have been receiving His life. I was brought to repent of my false and wicked ways... separated from those close to me who wanted to continue in those ways. after coming to see that I am NOTHING and He is EVERYTHING, and if I have anything from Him, he has all the glory! after being given this by God, He filled me with His Spirit - the baptism in the holy Spirit - through the ministry and hands layed on by victor and paul.
after that I had new life in Him! he gave to me the scriptures in Ephesians 1, and showed me that I was "accepted in the beloved." praise God!!! since that time, He has given me visions, dreams, prophesys, and most importantly a walk with Him and fulfillment in His work. and victor and paul are my spiritual elders, my fathers in the faith who birthed me and have been raising me to spiritual adulthood.
so when you ask me how I became convinced... I wasn't convinced! the Lord has been directly working with me and giving me faith and all good things because of my walk of obedience to Him - submitting to those He sent to me. and I know that others have to have the same to come into the true life in the Lord. Everything else is make believe!
Quote from: CHB on February 24, 2009, 04:06:55 PM
When a group or man claims to be the only one who has been chosen to know the truth, that throws up a red flag to me. I have been involved with such a group. I learned the hard way that no one has all the truth. The World Wide Church of God claimed to be THE true Church, the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and Herbert W Armstrong was the leader.
Witness, my advice to you is, run as fast as you can from this group. Once you are free from it you will be able to see through the deception it portrays. Take a look at all the other men who claimed to be a prophet, or chosen of God to proclaim the truth. Since the apostles, I don't believe God has chosen ONE man to give the rest of us the whole truth.
CHB
CHB-
just because you were taken in by a false teacher doesn't mean there are no true teachers - men of God!
you can't judge what is happening/has happened with me because you were burned. jesus said even then, "beware of false prophets." so because there were false prophets, does that mean people shouldn't have followed Jesus or apostle Paul? paul even said-
1 Corinthians 11:1 DRB Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.
but what about those who were burned by false teachers? did this not apply to them too?
the false doesn't disqualify the true, CHB.
paul replied to a couple older comments on his website, if you go to What's New. www.thepathoftruth.com
since he is banned from coming on here, why don't you write him, Scott? i'll send him your comments.
Hi Witness. Who are the folks you feel you need to be separated from, how was that decision made, and exactly what is your relationship/contact with them now, please? Also, could you explain what the difference is between your belief in "the false" vs. your belief now in "the true"? In other words, had you called on Jesus, believed on Him as your Savior before, but needed some things clarified, taught to you, changes made in your life before you could enter into what you now consider "the true", i.e., Victor and Paul's ministry? Thanks, James.
QuoteLet me give you a senerio a new reader comes here and see Paul C posts and wonders what all the fuss is about so they go and check out Pauls site and see that he says he was banned for comming here to profess the truth, you as mods here are privy to why he was banned as you say it was not what he beleived is why he was banned but the way he presented himself which is contrary to the rules of this board.
So the reader looks over all Pauls posts and see nothing that he said that was against the rule (as the mods deleted those posts) what impression does that give the reader?Two camps (his and tents) saying two different reasons for the banning, whose the reader to beleive?
For myself I would have left the posts for the proof is in the pudding so to speak and they would either condem or uplift as the case may be.
Sure Scott. :icon_flower:
The deleted posts still remain in storage and we have access to them if necessary, the link to Paul and Victors site still remain on the thread, if folk are interested in what these Guys are about, they only need visit and read thier site...As Byron mentioned ^ its no brianer ^.
If in the future such occasions arise, we can store such threads upon another board , that is, if Gary and Martin see a purpose for it.
Ill sure mention it and we can see what materializes. :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: onlytruth on February 25, 2009, 12:57:41 AM
hi pneuma... i shouldn't have told cohen to check his judgement about a friend of mine.
because what came in response was pretty much a curse on my life and i now should live in holy terror according to him and victor.
i am not fearful, because truly greater is he who is in me!
he showed no love, no compassion,no mercy...just control through fear mongering.i've been intimadated by enough of well meaning christians that i know better, to turn away.
i will not correspond with him anymore,i feel sorry that he can't love,he is missing out on the abundant life.
blessings :icon_king:
More than a few of us have been through such times OT ,Thanking HIM for releasing you from such bondage. :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Witness on February 25, 2009, 07:05:05 AM
a number of years ago, I was caught in the system of false Christianity. Through victor and paul's preaching, god showed me that He is not in anything that is formalized by doctrines - he did not come to give us doctrine! He came to give us life!!!
Witness,
That's great and I'm so glad you found that God is real. I was never in that false system as God made Himself known to me when I was an atheist.
I have worked very closely with many 'men of God'. When one I worked with (almost daily) for ten years pronounced a curse on some of my brothers and sisters I instantly knew that was NOT from God even though many things from that man were of God.
Paul and Victor are failures as we all are. They will fail you witness. They are cursing what God has blessed and that is just so much B.S.
I am not afraid of their stupid curses. God is my God without them. They are not being hated on here - they are receiving the just response for their bad behavior and ridiculous claims.
We'll see how this charade ends up :dontknow:
Peace and grace to you witness :icon_flower:
I will waste no more time on this subject. Who they are and what they are doing is self evident. :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: Witness on February 25, 2009, 07:05:05 AM
victor and paul are my spiritual elders, my fathers in the faith who birthed me and have been raising me to spiritual adulthood ... submitting to those He sent to me ... and I know that others have to have the same to come into the true life in the Lord. Everything else is make believe!
"... take heed to yourself, least you make a covenant or mutual agreement with the inhabitants of the land..."Having a mode of life in their spiritual food that is primarily obtained by the killing and consuming of others.
peacemaker
QuoteYou are right that you did not say these exact words
Thank you for admitting that. You can have the last word about me however your opinion sees fit.
Quote from: Witness on February 25, 2009, 07:05:05 AM
he did not come to give us doctrine! He came to give us life!!!
Yes Jesus did that for many through many different ministries. As much as my flesh might fight it, this even happens within the system of organized religion that I left.
This does not mean we do not speak out and contend for the things that are right. Of course I have been accused of not doing so. LOL Thats really funny actually.
Quote
in obedience to these men of god, i have been receiving His life.
Witness, please share the scripture showing you should be in obedience to these men.
Paul C I ask you to be the man of God this person claims you to be and not allow yourself to be followed as if you have a rightful place in this manner. Repent!
18When Jesus saw the crowd around Him, He gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. 19Then a teacher of the law came to Him and said, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go."
A teacher of the law recognizes that he must follow Jesus not just follow men.
Lord,
I pray that we see a great work in the turmoil that has been cast over this issue, there are hurt feelings, there may be misunderstanding, in any event, I pray that there be healing and awakening through your work. As we know, there are countless ways that you are to be revealed to all men in due time. I say thanks to open hearts in this issue and that your strength be known.
No one person, no two people, no 100 people, no one website, no one ministry contains ALL truth, only you God know ALL truth. For what freedom and life anyone finds in ANY area or through who you choose for that to be LORD I give thanks. I give thanks for my freedom through the most unlikely people. I express my thanks for my freedom in the face of doubt and the accusation of that being false.
I give thanks to the truth of your true ultimate reconciliation of all things and hope to see these dividing lines undone no matter who stands and tries ro justify keeping them in place, including a revelation for myself if it is me that stands doing that very thing.
I repent Lord of my attitude that is not loving and understanding or strong and courageous.
Amen
Actually, St. Paul is the one that said that we have New Testament doctrines and the Apostle John went far enough to say that if anyone wanders from them, then they don't have the Father or the Son. With St. Paul it's the Scripture about all of the things that the Scriptures are profitable for, as well as some other statements. With the Apostle John, again, there are many statements to this effect, but for a single sentence on the matter see 2John 1:8-11.
The purpose of correct doctrines are a simple matter of the "how to" of the Spirit and how to release the supernatural consistently -- no matter what it is. Christ gets picky about "doctrine" any time that there's going to be a release of power and only a very thoroughly renewed mind can be entrusted with getting certain things done that come up on God's "no man knoweth the day and hour" calendar. But when He starts with the "this is how" and "this is what to avoid to stay conducive to this and that still happening" then brace yourself 'cause something very beautiful's about to hit the fan! But it'll usually never be about acceptance issues, but about how to get from point A to point B about whatever.
I've seen hints again about why don't we just have a private board. How do any of you know that we don't?? That's the problem with private boards is the "by invitation only" otherwise you might not even know it exists unless even seeing it were enabled. I could see the board about getting the Gospel out to foreign lands being made private 'cause things might be planned on that board for a particular geographical area that would be illegal in that country. But just secret boards for the sake of having some Christians that are invited and some that aren't with some kind of gnostic pretext about some not being ready for this or that has not only never been anything that Gary's ever been willing to consider, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I'm involved with a number of organizations in the Animal Underground Railroad. I could see a private board on my forum (i.e. not talking about Tentmaker's Forum) if anything said on that could and would be held against us in a court of law if we "went there" about certain things. But just secret boards that are based upon the sectarian spirit without a genuine point being achieved other than an over-inflated self opinion about being Christian Jedi Knights or whatever, uh....NO!! LOL! Private boards have an agenda rather than feeding itchy ears/eyes and gossip.
There are certain deeper teachings of the Word that it might not be profitable to get into with everyone, but those tend to be on a need to know basis rather than to the overly inflated self important. Otherwise, the only real reason for secret boards would definitely be a discipling intent and it wouldn't be general chit-chat about itchy ear stuff. Intensified ministry preparation would be among the reasons why I could see a lot of fruit out of a private board. But anything less ambitious and email or the printed page would be perfectly fine for something passed among a very few where folks were just revelating beyond the purpose of certain forums online. If we got a bunch of folks that suddenly came to the forum from Iran, China, and elsewhere where teaching UR could get them into trouble, but for them "to live is Christ and to die is gain," and I wouldn't even wait until I'd heard back from Gary before there'd be a secret board around here with a very few regular members being invited, but of the ones that I'd have the best assurance that they could really pour in the Word rather than opinions, distracting quips, etc.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 25, 2009, 03:50:04 PM
Lord,
I pray that we see a great work in the turmoil that has been cast over this issue, there are hurt feelings, there may be misunderstanding, in any event, I pray that there be healing and awakening through your work. As we know, there are countless ways that you are to be revealed to all men in due time. I say thanks to open hearts in this issue and that your strength be known.
No one person, no two people, no 100 people, no one website, no one ministry contains ALL truth, only you God know ALL truth. For what freedom and life anyone finds in ANY area or through who you choose for that to be LORD I give thanks. I give thanks for my freedom through the most unlikely people. I express my thanks for my freedom in the face of doubt and the accusation of that being false.
I give thanks to the truth of your true ultimate reconciliation of all things and hope to see these dividing lines undone no matter who stands and tries ro justify keeping them in place, including a revelation for myself if it is me that stands doing that very thing.
I repent Lord of my attitude that is not loving and understanding or strong and courageous.
Amen
And Amen.
Quote from: paul Hazelwood
No one person, no two people, no 100 people, no one website, no one ministry contains ALL truth, only you God know ALL truth. For what freedom and life anyone finds in ANY area or through who you choose for that to be LORD I give thanks. I give thanks for my freedom through the most unlikely people. I express my thanks for my freedom in the face of doubt and the accusation of that being false.
Absolutely right!!! :thumbsup:
CHB
Quote from: Witness
CHB-
just because you were taken in by a false teacher doesn't mean there are no true teachers - men of God!
you can't judge what is happening/has happened with me because you were burned. jesus said even then, "beware of false prophets." so because there were false prophets, does that mean people shouldn't have followed Jesus or apostle Paul? paul even said-
1 Corinthians 11:1 DRB Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.
but what about those who were burned by false teachers? did this not apply to them too?
the false doesn't disqualify the true, CHB.
Witness,
The thing is, we don't need man to control us, tell us what to do and how to do it. We only need God. Doesn't the Bible say to let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar. It is not good to let one man run your life, look what happened with Jim Jones. I am not saying there aren't men of God or teachers that teach truth but no one teaches ALL the truth. I mean NO ONE, not even Paul Cohen, the Bible says so.
CHB
:cloud9: Amen.... :thumbsup:
QuoteWe only need God. Doesn't the Bible say to let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar.
Ya Know CHB ....every MAN is a Liar, for me talks after the Flesh, therefore all **flesh*** are Liars, that is those LIE against the TRUTH , therefore have their PART in the LAKE...BUT he who is Born from above speaks and Prophesies AFTER HE who is TRUTH..and Can Not LIE, for New Tongues hearts and Minds have been given.
:icon_flower:
:cloud9: Amen Taf :thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on February 26, 2009, 12:45:39 AM
Ya Know CHB ....every MAN is a Liar, for me talks after the Flesh, therefore all **flesh*** are Liars, that is those LIE against the TRUTH , therefore have their PART in the LAKE...BUT he who is Born from above speaks and Prophesies AFTER HE who is TRUTH..and Can Not LIE, for New Tongues hearts and Minds have been given.
:icon_flower:
You are right Taffy but even if one speaks the truth, doesn't mean one KNOWS ALL truth. Or is given all the truth. I think Paul was given more truth than any one in the Bible but even he didn't know it ALL. Paul said "we know in part". "We see through a glass darkly".
If we knew it all we couldn't GROW in grace and knowledge.
CHB
Quote from: Witness on February 25, 2009, 07:08:58 AM
paul replied to a couple older comments on his website, if you go to What's New. www.thepathoftruth.com
since he is banned from coming on here, why don't you write him, Scott? i'll send him your comments.
Hi Witness feel free to send Paul my comments, as to writing him or anyone else time constrants just don't give me much time on the net these days to do much of that, but I did add his site to my favorites to read over when I do get some time.
God bless
Scott, if paul has anything to say to you, he would need your e-mail (since he was banned from answering here).
how blessed I am to have a God who reveals himself, His ways, and his truth to His servants, not leaving me to stumble in the dark.
(John 15:15) No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master does. But I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
1 John 2:20-21 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know ALL things. (21) I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth.
James, have you not been separated by the Lord from your family or your church? if not, then why not, since Jesus said he came to bring a sword?
Matthew 10:34-39
(34) Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword.
(35) For I have come to set a man against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
(36) And a man's foes shall be those of his own household.
(37) He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
(38) And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.
(39) He who finds his life shall lose it. And he who loses his life for My sake shall find it.
And for all, regarding God honoring those who honor those He sends:
Matthew 10:40-41
(40) He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.
(41) He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. And he who receives a just one in the name of a just one will receive a just one's reward.
Back to you, james. God also said, "2 Corinthians 6:17-18 Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you (18) and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
So anyone who hasn't experienced this separation hasn't known the Lord - He has not (yet) called them to Himself, or they have refused coming to Him. "Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few chosen."
some Scriptures for you, CHB:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
John 20:21 Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you. As My Father has sent Me, even so I send you.
Galatians 4:14 and you did not despise my temptation in my flesh, nor did you spurn it. But you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 4:15-16 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (16) Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Hebrews 13:7-8 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. (8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Witness I sent you a pm, let me know whether you got it or not
no, Scott, I didn't get it (or don't know how to get it). can you send it again or help me out?
Hi Witness. I guess I'm wondering exactly what type of separation you're talking about. Has it been dictated to you by a person(s), or directly led there, just between you and God? Also, what input does Paul and Victor have in what you have to say here or anywhere?
I will answer your questions in the next post.
i did get your message, Scott! (I wasn't looking in my e-mail.) thank you.
your welcome
Separation for me, and I believe what separation is biblically, is the difference between Light and darkness. That God's Spirit working within me identifies with things of the Father and not of the world...not that I can't interact with others, talk to them, spend time with them; but that our spiritual eyes may be set on different goals, our life's focus on different things (things of the Spirit and life vs. things of the flesh and death) etc. A super literal interpretation of the verses of which you speak would mean that Jesus didn't do what He said...and we know that's not true, because there was no lie or deceit in Him. But we also both know that he sat with sinners, interacted with the "unclean"...now, did He desire to be a part of their sin? No, and that's what I mean by the workings of the Spirit in the believer is different than what the unbeliever is typically focused on, so there is a "type" of separation. But that doesn't mean I have to, nor did Jesus, lock myself away in a room with just a select few people...and especially only the few that may be approved of by the "hierarchy" or only certain men in control.
Yes, I separate from certain activities and people, given specific circumstances/situations. As an example; I find no pleasure in spending hours at a wild party filled with drunkenness and reveling...the Spirit of God in me doesn't allow me to be comfortable in those situations. And even if I did find such pleasure for a time, the Holy Spirit within me would convict me and pull me back toward God's will in my life...back to pursuing Him as He changes me from the inside out......through confession and repentance. But still only through His power and grace; no self-righteousness or goodness of my own. So yes, there are Spirit-led, God-caused differences since God has graciously saved me. But for me to hold myself higher, better, etc. to the point that I "cry unclean" and reject people that may not be as yet reconciled to God and/or pursuing Him? The witness of the Spirit in me says "that's not right".
How does this play itself out for you? Are you forbade to do and say certain things, or interact with certain people? Witness, these are plain, direct questions. Will you honestly and transparently answer them?
Thanks, take care, James.
Quote from: Witness on February 26, 2009, 07:10:09 AM
how blessed I am to have a God who reveals himself, His ways, and his truth to His servants, not leaving me to stumble in the dark.
"The eyes can only see; what the mind has, is, and will be prepared to comprehend."No matter what we do in the letter of the law, in the flesh, it cannot result in life in the spirit.
Only God, through his Christ, can change an individual's heart, or the heart of a nation.
Therefore, let us put aside the deeds of darkness, putting on the implements of light.
Until, the whole house is illuminated, one room at a time.
Indeed, a man's enemies, or foes are those of his own house.
peacemaker
Amen, jabcat, my thoughts exactly.
Quote from: Witness
some Scriptures for you, CHB:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
John 20:21 Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you. As My Father has sent Me, even so I send you.
Galatians 4:14 and you did not despise my temptation in my flesh, nor did you spurn it. But you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 4:15-16 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (16) Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Hebrews 13:7-8 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. (8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Witness,
At the beginning of your post you seem to say you know you have been given ALL of the truth. You can have ALL of the truth about A certain thing and this is what is being talked about.
If you have ALL the truth about everything there is, then you don't need to grow in knowledge and grace do you?
If you know ALL THINGS please tell me what is meant by (1John 2:27) "But the anointing {Holy Spirit} which you have received of Him abideth in you, and
ye need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
Now, the Holy Spirit can teach you ALL THINGS, because it knows all things but no man knows it all.
When Jesus said to his disciples "I send you" he meant the 12 which doesn't apply to us. Paul was one of the disciples and he was given more truth than the rest but like I said he didn't know everything.
(Acts 1:7) Jesus said "it is NOT GIVEN FOR YOU TO KNOW the times or the seasons."
(1Cor. 8:12) knowledge puffeth up. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, HE KNOWETH NOTHING YET AS HE OUGHT TO KNOW.
Some things just wasn't given for us to know.
(1Tim. 2:4) Who
will have all men to be saved, and
to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I think the above means that
eventually all will come to understand but not now.
(1Cor. 4:5) Therefore judge
nothing before the time, until the Lord come,
who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
(2Peter 3:18) "But
grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
If we already know everything there is no need to GROW in knowledge is there?
CHB
Quotehow blessed I am to have a God who reveals himself, His ways, and his truth to His servants, not leaving me to stumble in the dark.
Amen Witness. :icon_flower:
Have ya ever considered that scripture pertains to those very much of their day ., didnt Christ preach\teach to his kinsmen , the Circuit of Galiliee ?
Its evident for me that those IN DARKNESS cant see ,Kinda the same as The deaf , as they dont hear.
Do you know just how many times Ive been told-...YOU dont have eyes to SEE( therefore your darkness remains) and you dont have the ears to HEAR, therefore your DEAF to the scriptures ******** I *******Teach?, COS Ive been sent as HIS prophet, Apostle teacher etc...
One WHO HEARS... HEARS **HIS**voice , One Percives HIM through the Eyes Of Understanding,Therefore ,are NO longer BLIND nor deaf **************** TO HIM************** :icon_flower: its HIS VOICE we hear
SO WHO ARE THESE FOLK IN DARKNESS..and the Deaf?...The Blind, lame, sick, poor etc HE came to spirtually HEAL
Lets consider PAUL..pretty good example wouldnt ya say?
THERE are none more BLIND then they which cant see...( only issue is ,they think they can)
Didnt he as Saul;, come to SEE his BLINDNESS, being stuck WITH LIGHT....? One could say, he could not see because of HIS pride, his eyes were covered In scales, eyeslave( Christ) removed HIS pride( as ONE OF THE LAW) as the LAW was The tutor to the Reality of it...Poor saul still a child under law , Not yet made an Heir or son of Faith.
Job 41:15 [His] scales [are his] pride, shut up together [as with] a close seal.
youll see this again In Rev 3...Those who think they are Rich but poor etc, In need of eyesalve.
When he was a CHILD he spoke as a Child( as one who preached law) But noW full grown he puts away childish Things...
Are ya Getting the picture :icon_flower: ....twas those to whom Christ preached..yes..his fellow kinsmen, could we call them Jews?.....who were Blinded by the LAW,
One who is removed From Darkness ,is one who is no longer In the Shadow of the OLDC.....
for many are Invited But few are chosen( noted only twice in scripture...which speak again of his kinsmen ) :boyheart:....seem Not many wise men either ( those being wise unto the LAW...)
Ya think Paul could just be one of the few chosen among his kinsmen...?
Have ya also Noticed ...Darkness is Night ...Light is DAY....Paul C being a Jew would know the NIGHT comes before the day..sunset to sunset...Night first..Day second.....a Bit Like the Old C first, then the New C...its called pictures and patterns , scriptures full of them which say very much the same thing...(Genesis is BIRTHED in such wonders)
For Those who WALK IN THE DAY, do not stumble, because its Not dark...Christ is the DAY we walk in, the LIGHT of the WORLD, the Morning Star which shines in our Hearts....The NEW DAY DAWN...for we are No longer in Darkness , weve passed through the Veil , its been torn , we now enter the Holy of Holies ....Blessed BY The Coming of the TESTATOR OF the New covenant ,which IS CHRIST in our hearts....
Jhn 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not
twelve hours in the day? If
any man walk in the day, he
stumbleth not, because
he seeth the light of this world. Dear Witness ...there are those here who to are blessed to see HE who is the LIGHT of Knowledge...they neither remain In darkness....nor stumble.
so welcome sister :icon_flower:
Blessings.
:icon_flower:
ps
Sorry witness but never got passed your first line :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on February 26, 2009, 07:07:10 PM
Quotehow blessed I am to have a God who reveals himself, His ways, and his truth to His servants, not leaving me to stumble in the dark.
Amen Witness. :icon_flower:
Have ya ever considered that scripture pertains to those very much of their day ., didnt Christ preach\teach to his kinsmen , the Circuit of Galiliee ?
Its evident for me that those IN DARKNESS cant see ,Kinda the same as The deaf , as they dont hear.
Do you know just how many times Ive been told-...YOU dont have eyes to SEE( therefore your darkness remains) and you dont have the ears to HEAR, therefore your DEAF to the scriptures ******** I *******Teach?, COS Ive been sent as HIS prophet, Apostle teacher etc...
One WHO HEARS... HEARS **HIS**voice , One Percives HIM through the Eyes Of Understanding,Therefore ,are NO longer BLIND nor deaf **************** TO HIM************** :icon_flower: its HIS VOICE we hear
SO WHO ARE THESE FOLK IN DARKNESS..and the Deaf?...The Blind, lame, sick, poor etc HE came to spirtually HEAL
Lets consider PAUL..pretty good example wouldnt ya say?
THERE are none more BLIND then they which cant see...( only issue is ,they think they can)
Didnt he as Saul;, come to SEE his BLINDNESS, being stuck WITH LIGHT....? One could say, he could not see because of HIS pride, his eyes were covered In scales, eyeslave( Christ) removed HIS pride( as ONE OF THE LAW) as the LAW was The tutor to the Reality of it...Poor saul still a child under law , Not yet made an Heir or son of Faith.
Job 41:15 [His] scales [are his] pride, shut up together [as with] a close seal.
youll see this again In Rev 3...Those who think they are Rich but poor etc, In need of eyesalve.
When he was a CHILD he spoke as a Child( as one who preached law) But noW full grown he puts away childish Things...
Are ya Getting the picture :icon_flower: ....twas those to whom Christ preached..yes..his fellow kinsmen, could we call them Jews?.....who were Blinded by the LAW,
One who is removed From Darkness ,is one who is no longer In the Shadow of the OLDC.....
for many are Invited But few are chosen( noted only twice in scripture...which speak again of his kinsmen ) :boyheart:....seem Not many wise men either ( those being wise unto the LAW...)
Ya think Paul could just be one of the few chosen among his kinsmen...?
Have ya also Noticed ...Darkness is Night ...Light is DAY....Paul C being a Jew would know the NIGHT comes before the day..sunset to sunset...Night first..Day second.....a Bit Like the Old C first, then the New C...its called pictures and patterns , scriptures full of them which say very much the same thing...(Genesis is BIRTHED in such wonders)
For Those who WALK IN THE DAY, do not stumble, because its Not dark...Christ is the DAY we walk in, the LIGHT of the WORLD, the Morning Star which shines in our Hearts....The NEW DAY DAWN...for we are No longer in Darkness , weve passed through the Veil , its been torn , we now enter the Holy of Holies ....Blessed BY The Coming of the TESTATOR OF the New covenant ,which IS CHRIST in our hearts....
Jhn 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
Dear Witness ...there are those here who to are blessed to see HE who is the LIGHT of Knowledge...they neither remain In darkness....nor stumble.
so welcome sister :icon_flower:
Blessings.
:icon_flower:
ps
Sorry witness but never got passed your first line :icon_flower:
THANK YOU JESUS.
In HIM, we can say; I and the Father are ONE. We are not of this world. Praise HIM.
Thank you T, beautifully said.
Quote from: PAUL COHENTaffy, what you have done doesn't look good because it isn't good. But you don't care about the latter, only the former – how things look. You are a proud and wretched creature, and you will know it.
Well Thanks for those loving words Paul. :icon_flower:
Hi to you too.
your such a Joy....
Alas, The Proud have their Crown ,Tis the those HIGH places which are made low ,very much associated with the PRIDE of the Flesh AND THE WISDOM ( MIND) BENEATH , You could consider wretched as a Metaphor for sinful ....OH, wretched Man am I ..who will save me from this BODY of Death ...Still born of FLESH
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
The Proud boast from the mouth, lips and Tongue :mblush: ......or even Maybe, those
In HIM Boast of Him :icon_flower:
Ever notice Rich men are often mentioned ,as those who are pharisees?
Rev 3:17 Because thou
sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked
[/b] ALL METAPHORS FOR SINFUL)
ya Know paul..this wretched Body of Mine died with HIM, reconciled by his death, saved by His LIFE....
As Im born of HIM ,by the Power of HIS Spirit , Christ the POWER of God , All Things become New...the old man dies along with the Pride of the Fleshy mind, that which is\WAS enmity to HIM, Now being re -newed IN the Mind and heart, tis the PROMISE of the New Covenant :icon_flower:
..Blessings
T :icon_flower:
hi everyone...
i had an interesting dream...my wife and i were sleeping in our infant daughters room when there was a knock at the door.My wife went to answer the door and when she saw the person at the door, terror filled her eyes.She called me and said he's trying to shoot us,i asked her to step back and went to the door.
I look out and see a man biking back and forth rapidly skidding his tires on our and our neighbours front lawn.I proceed outside realizing he has a gun but continue to approach overcoming the fear.
He reminds me of a plumber(who has't returned my phone calls)but looking at him he is now clean shaven,his sm beard gone.We go around the side of the house to the back and sit by the fence looking at the back wall where an elaborate array of plumbing parts are assembled.
He mentions how his wife has cheated on him(in san francisco) and how hurt he is .I try to console him but we both know the healing process has to happen.He doesn't want to abandon her but he doesn't know yet how it's going to work out.
I believe this dream applies to this thread
In my infancy(loving everyone regardless of words spoken) I get up to see my wife(who's father and mother were part of numerous cults -jw,kabalarian etc,etc.) being shot at(spoken word curses)and backing away from the invitation.
I in turn push forward through the 'unknowing' see the bike person (bike= doing God's work in your own strength,unlike a car) tearing apart what people love to show others.
We talk about the water pipes(channels who God's will flows through) not fully understanding why it looks the way it does!
The plumber who has been wounded by those close to him(perhaps the church body)(free love at a price(city of san fran)).He wants to resolve it but doesn't know how to ...so a hurt heart ,hurts other hearts.
I beleive we have to love, as jesus loved, in spite of ourselves especially the plumber
blessings :icon_king:
Quote from: Taffy on February 26, 2009, 07:07:10 PM
Are ya Getting the picture :icon_flower:
It takes a fuller's soap, and pure water to remove the world's dirt from off our eyes.
"Darkness is night :secret: but joy cometh in the morning!"peacemaker
Quote from: onlytruth on February 26, 2009, 09:52:35 PM
hi everyone...
i had an interesting dream...my wife and i were sleeping in our infant daughters room when there was a knock at the door.My wife went to answer the door and when she saw the person at the door, terror filled her eyes.She called me and said he's trying to shoot us,i asked her to step back and went to the door.
I look out and see a man biking back and forth rapidly skidding his tires on our and our neighbours front lawn.I proceed outside realizing he has a gun but continue to approach overcoming the fear.
He reminds me of a plumber(who has't returned my phone calls)but looking at him he is now clean shaven,his sm beard gone.We go around the side of the house to the back and sit by the fence looking at the back wall where an elaborate array of plumbing parts are assembled.
He mentions how his wife has cheated on him(in san francisco) and how hurt he is .I try to console him but we both know the healing process has to happen.He doesn't want to abandon her but he doesn't know yet how it's going to work out.
I believe this dream applies to this thread
In my infancy(loving everyone regardless of words spoken) I get up to see my wife(who's father and mother were part of numerous cults -jw,kabalarian etc,etc.) being shot at(spoken word curses)and backing away from the invitation.
I in turn push forward through the 'unknowing' see the bike person (bike= doing God's work in your own strength,unlike a car) tearing apart what people love to show others.
We talk about the water pipes(channels who God's will flows through) not fully understanding why it looks the way it does!
The plumber who has been wounded by those close to him(perhaps the church body)(free love at a price(city of san fran)).He wants to resolve it but doesn't know how to ...so a hurt heart ,hurts other hearts.
I beleive we have to love, as jesus loved, in spite of ourselves especially the plumber
blessings :icon_king:
wow, that was pretty darn interesting. Good interpreting job there, onlytruth.. :thumbsup: :icon_flower:
(It's late for me again. I hope to share more here later. For now, consider the relevance of the following opened from Scripture:)
----------------------------------------
Jesus took no part in any institutions of men. He wasn't born to the priests caste. He was not a Pharisee, nor a Sadducee, nor a Herodian. He didn't try to reform the Roman Empire either. He wasn't a Caesar, nor a senator, nor any earthly king among the political systems of His day. He came as an individual who God was with, like a gem, set in the finding of Israel. Only He, and not any of His apostles, is said to have disciples. He said, "I can not do anything of myself." (Jn 5:30) He said God His father did the miraculous works attesting to the word He brought.
Paul also, in the first "oracles of God" to be written in almost half a millennia, in the first letter written after a man achieved victory over death, says he is an "apostle (not from men, neither through a man..." (Ga 1:1) He was not a product of any group nor did he represent any group of men. He was not ordained of men nor mentored by a man. He goes farther, saying, "If I still pleased men, I were not a slave of Christ." (Ga 1:10) It seems clear he is not advocating submission to even men of God in these words we regard as Holy Writ. Advancing he says, "When it delights God...to unveil His Son in me...I did not immediately submit it to flesh and blood, neither came I up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me..." So he goes still farther in saying he didn't go where the move of God was happening, where there were the only men so commendable as to be chosen bythe Messiah Himself and that were additionally qualified by walking with the Incarnation Himself for 3 1/2 years. He says he went the opposite direction, "away into Arabia..." (Ga 1:15-17) In case we don't understand the Holy Spirit's take on authority, Paul takes it so much farther to say, "Now from those reputed to be somewhat--what kind they once were is of no consequence to me (God is not taking up the human aspect)--for to me those of repute submitted (or,added) nothing." (Ga 2:6) He's effectively leveling all who would follow Jesus, none exalted above aother. He reveals that honoring The Teacher God has God honoring him, teaching him well. Well wouldn't you know it, he has to darn the hole with an iron thread! He brags about how he, "withstood [Cephas] to the face..." (Ga 2:11) Yet, we are ready to assume Peter was perhaps the foremost authority among The Twelve. Paul, the newcomer without any man or group of men to commend him, is he in rebellion? No. The kingdom of God of God is just God in direct relationship with each of us and God, being Jealous, won't have other mediators between us and Him. Is Paul an anarchist? No. The only authority in the Church which is His body is Jesus present as the Holy Spirit. The true servants of God connect us to the Head and secure and enlarge that connection. Rather than the Holy Spirit giving them to lead the people, they give people over to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Those who think God wants us submitted to them or we won't advance in the image and likeness of God neither know what the coming of Jesus the Messiah means or what His presence in His Church accomplishes.
your brother, James Rohde
:cloud9: reFormer, there isn't enough space to write all the Amens I'd like to, to this. When I was alone, being taught of that same Spirit, one of the first things He ever said to me was, "You are never to bow the knee to any man (mankind's flesh), but only to My Spirit." Let's pause for a moment and reflect on the external structure needed, if everyone would do JUST that......
It's hard to fathom, isn't it? Total submission to Him = total liberty. Not liberty as the flesh would have it, but liberty in His Spirit to only do and say that which pleases the Father. No wonder then it says, as many as are lead by His Spirit, they are the sons of God.
Blessings....
Quote from: ReformerThe only authority in the Church which is His body is Jesus present as the Holy Spirit. The true servants of God connect us to the Head and secure and enlarge that connection.
Quote from: Cardinal... one of the first things He ever said to me was, "You are never to bow the knee to any man (mankind's flesh), but only to My Spirit."
This is so important. This is the principal that our country was founded on--this idea that every man is accountable directly only to God,
and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.[2Cor 3:17]
Is there any man living or dead you could trust more than Jesus? If you could pick only one to trust with everything that is dear to you, who would that be? Who is the only one without controversy who has our best interest at heart?
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.And--
John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Quote from: Molly
Is there any man living or dead you could trust more than Jesus? If you could pick only one to trust with everything that is dear to you, who would that be? Who is the only one without controversy who has our best interest at heart?
Amen Molly!!! that is why it says, "there is ONLY ONE MEDIATOR between man and God and that is Jesus Christ, not another man.
CHB
:cloud9: AMEN. ALL men (not just a few, not just the unsaved, not just the non ministers) seek after their own things and not the things which be of Christ. It is only from being led by His Spirit and being IN His Spirit that we are able to seek after HIS things, and that includes the well being of others. Blessings....
A note to affirm Cardinal's previous post . . . I think there is much to be said about the difference between men and "man". There is a balance to all things that God establishes in us. There is definitely a call to be obedient to the steps ordered of the Spirit of God and that "man" is not the one that leads you into all truths . . .at the same time . . .there are "men" (spiritually speaking, this obviously includes women as well . . .) that God does appoint and ordain that he establishes "over" others.
There is a necessity for the 5-fold ministry within the body . . .and within "my" body. The spirit of life is a submissive spirit that does not rebel against authority in general. Thus we are to submit ourselves "one to another." Now, having said that, I understand that there are men being led by the mind of "man" that abuse this authority and as a result, many are wounded more than they are healed. My spirit is to bow to no "man" in me . . .to no "carnality" or "flesh". the original order in which we were created was that our Spirit rules over our mind and body . . .but when we let our spirit bow to our flesh . . . that is where great error begins to manifest in our understandings of what and how we interpret Scripture.
That's the 3rd dimension for me . . .the 2nd is when we see the corporate church bowing to traditions of men, rather than to the spirit of God. We are spirit beings created to fly . . . but carnality binds and clips the wings to keep people as earth dwellers. But there are prophets, apostles, preachers, teachers and evangelists out there that do emit life over law . .relationship over religion . .and there "is" much benefit to one who relinquishes their selfishness and personal control to another which then Christ manifests through us "in" that process of submission.
Just a thought.
:cloud9: I understand where you are coming from Nathan, and as a former 5 fold, maybe more than you know. All I'm going to say is this....one day the Lord asked me a seemingly simple question. He said, "What is in the Holy of Holies?"
I thought about it for a few seconds, before replying, "YOU ARE, LORD." That spoke volumes to me on so many different levels, it was like an explosion within. Blessings....
Hey Card . . .I am in total agreement with you . . .on all points. And when it comes to the 5 fold . . .for me . . . I'm not one that is adamant about following the principles . .not personally . . .but here's my stance on it all today . . .where I'm at with it today . . .could change tomorrow . .but for today . . .
I beleive that as we mature in the Lord, certain aspects of the principles of Scripture will shift in us. And when I experienced my first paradigm shift, my reaction to the place where I "was" was that it needs to be dispensed of . .it's no longer necessary . . .but what I left out . . or at least didn't think about at the time was . . . well, the easiest way for me to explain this is by using the school analogy again . .because that's really what I see a flourishing church to be . . a school.
And as great as it would be to have a church that can house all three dimensions in it, in most all cases, that's not to be. A belief system is generally based on a common platform. Most churches, evangelical and otherwise . ..are ministry oriented. They are works-based and ministry oriented. Most who are in kingdom realms now came out of there . . .it's not that they were bad, it's just that's where we were at that age in Christ.
And as one would graduate from junior high into highschool . .one wouldn't then claim there is no longer a need for junior high schools . .that would be silly . . .but to say that junior high schools are no longer necessary . . ."for me" . . .that would then make much more sense.
In the same way . ..when referring to the 5-fold ministry of a works-based church . . to say that they are all wrong and unnecessary would be a tragedy . . .I'm not saying you said that . .I'm saying I "thought" that . .but it's just not an accurate thing to say. There are still so many people who are just not comfortable dealing with dimensions and hidden things that they "need" a place where they still can reach and touch the Father . .and he meets us on our own terms. Not the most effective place to be, but it's what he does nonetheless. So that's where I was coming from when touching on that area of my first post.
But as far as the holy of holies goes . . .understanding what's in that is all based on revelation through relationship with the Father through the Son and not on works-based rudiments.
That help?
Quote from: peacemaker on February 27, 2009, 05:10:08 AM
Quote from: Taffy on February 26, 2009, 07:07:10 PM
Are ya Getting the picture :icon_flower:
It takes a fuller's soap, and pure water to remove the world's dirt from off our eyes.
"Darkness is night :secret: but joy cometh in the morning!"
peacemaker
:icon_flower:
** JOY ** is WITHIN, He cometh in the Morning :icon_flower:
2Cr 1:24
Not for that we have
dominion over
your faith, but are
helpers of your joy: for by
faith ye stand :icon_flower:
:cloud9: Hi Nathan.....I should have said this before, but I guess I hope you know me enough now to know the motive of my heart when I share anything He has made life in me is not to condemn anyone. So I do hope you understand that when I say certain things, I am mindful of the fact that you are in 5 fold ministry and I am NOT trying to point anything at you at all. We are all where we are at until the Lord decides otherwise, and I agree with the school analogy; I use it myself a lot, to explain why I no longer attend anywhere, except when and where He leads.
My "problem" then in writing these things, is that as I share revelation He has given me concerning the purpose and ultimate ending of the in part realm, of which the 5 fold is a part, it is not personal, but intended to be revelatory so that whoever He desires to move, may have some of what they need quickened to them, so they can move without condemnation of their flesh, or the flesh of others, bearing down on them.
The Lord Himself set up and ordained myself and the others in the full 5 fold ministry (all 5) I was a part of, so for me to say He has not done such things, would be irrational at best. But by the same token, He ended it, and then showed me why, and why it must come to an end to receive more in the final dispensation of the age. That doesn't mean He's ended it with all the others that He has set up, only that it is coming at some point. Blessings to you.....
This is my delimma . . .I'm a pastor . .part of the 5 fold ministry . .but I'm with you . . .my message is not one to establish more ministry, but it's to illuminate that we are "in" the day of REST.
So, even though I'm in this ministry, I am not enforcing it on others that it's the only way to go . . .I believe it's all a maturity process.
Ministers and pastors are still needed to minister to and pastor over the flock as it goes through this process . .but all of our goals should always be moving toward that person of REST.
And yes Card, I really think you and I are saying the same stuff. :cloud9:
Quote from: jabcat on February 26, 2009, 07:25:29 AMThat God's Spirit working within me identifies with things of the Father and not of the world...not that I can't interact with others, talk to them, spend time with them; but that our spiritual eyes may be set on different goals, our life's focus on different things (things of the Spirit and life vs. things of the flesh and death) etc. A super literal interpretation of the verses of which you speak would mean that Jesus didn't do what He said...and we know that's not true, because there was no lie or deceit in Him.
james, if God's Spirit were truly working within you, you would identify with the things I describe, for you would be, using your own words, identifying with the things of the Father and not of the world. my experience with the walk with the Lord is not about dos and don'ts (you said, "not that I can't interact with others..."), but i experienced a parting of ways with those who didn't have the call of God on their lives as I did on mine. Does that mean i couldn't talk to them? no. if some were adamantly, viciously opposed (and they were), there wasn't much to talk about (to put it lightly). when the Lord said he brings a sword to divide, He means it!
You talk about not needing a super literal interpretation of those verses. this isn't about interpretation, james! this is about what the Lord has directly, personally done for me. I didn't do what i did because I interpreted the Bible a certain way. the Lord did what He did, creating that opposition for my sake, and after all was said and done I realized that i was living through exactly what the Scriptures say. what a wonderful thing!
maybe it doesn't matter, but I don't understand what you are saying about those verses taken literally would mean that Jesus didn't do what He said. I know that those verses applied to my life, and He did exactly what He said by bringing division with my family and others when I believed and obeyed Him.
who says I have locked myself away in a room? am I not here talking to all of you???
as for a hierarchy, the Lord has His system of things, all in order, and that includes putting some over others, in righteousness. God establishes certain men to exercise authority, as evidenced by the scriptures I gave to CHB. (which you ignore or try to explain away, CHB?)
you may say you believe the Bible, james, but what I see you doing is picking, choosing, and changing whatever sounds good to you.
onlytruth, your dream wasn't from God.
even if it were, sparrow, people in the Lord don't praise each other for anything given by God - whether the dream or the interpretation. If God gives an interpretation (and he didn't), He gets the glory, not the person.
obviously apostle Paul wasn't saying what you say he was saying, reformer. 1) do you deny he gave the instructions that I quoted to CHB? (he doesn't contradict himself) 2) in galatians 1:18 (right after the verses you were quoting), he describes that he abode with Peter for 15 days and also saw James, Jesus' brother. 3) he also reports this-
Galatians 2:1-2 EMTV Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, also taking Titus along. (2) And I went up by revelation, and I set before them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those with influence, lest somehow I might run, or had run, for nothing.
so he did submit to those in authority in Jerusalem! he also required submission of those he ministered to and gave orders!
1 Corinthians 5:3-5 BBE For I myself, being present in spirit though not in body, have come to a decision about him who has done this thing; (4) In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you have come together with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, (5) That this man is to be handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may have forgiveness in the day of the Lord Jesus.
it amazes me to see how much praise you received for your letter, reformer. anyone who wishes to walk with the Lord needs to flee from your influence.
there are some excellent writings on Paul and Victor's site that address these issues-
Iniquity (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/iniquity.htm)
That Prophet part 2 (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/thatprophet2.htm)
The Big Lie Exposed (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehoodexposed/biglie.htm).
OK Witness, I think you're misunderstanding and judging, and not openly answering my questions; which actually does provide information.
Quote: "you may say you believe the Bible, james, but what I see you doing is picking, choosing, and changing whatever sounds good to you." That's your opinion, and my opinion is that your opinion is based on your understanding and perhaps even more so, the influence of your "teachers". There is such a thing as taking scripture in context, and rightfully dividing the Word of Truth. Think what you will (or is it what your leaders approve?). God will sort it out.
One more question. Do you answer these questions and address these issues, or is someone else dictating what you say?
Jesus is my Savior. Call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved. Believe on the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved. With what manner of judgment you mete it shall be meted unto you. Selah.
Quote from: Witness on February 28, 2009, 02:14:31 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 26, 2009, 07:25:29 AMThat God's Spirit working within me identifies with things of the Father and not of the world...not that I can't interact with others, talk to them, spend time with them; but that our spiritual eyes may be set on different goals, our life's focus on different things (things of the Spirit and life vs. things of the flesh and death) etc. A super literal interpretation of the verses of which you speak would mean that Jesus didn't do what He said...and we know that's not true, because there was no lie or deceit in Him.
james, if God's Spirit were truly working within you, you would identify with the things I describe, for you would be, using your own words, identifying with the things of the Father and not of the world. my experience with the walk with the Lord is not about dos and don'ts (you said, "not that I can't interact with others..."), but i experienced a parting of ways with those who didn't have the call of God on their lives as I did on mine. Does that mean i couldn't talk to them? no. if some were adamantly, viciously opposed (and they were), there wasn't much to talk about (to put it lightly). when the Lord said he brings a sword to divide, He means it!
You talk about not needing a super literal interpretation of those verses. this isn't about interpretation, james! this is about what the Lord has directly, personally done for me. I didn't do what i did because I interpreted the Bible a certain way. the Lord did what He did, creating that opposition for my sake, and after all was said and done I realized that i was living through exactly what the Scriptures say. what a wonderful thing!
maybe it doesn't matter, but I don't understand what you are saying about those verses taken literally would mean that Jesus didn't do what He said. I know that those verses applied to my life, and He did exactly what He said by bringing division with my family and others when I believed and obeyed Him.
who says I have locked myself away in a room? am I not here talking to all of you???
as for a hierarchy, the Lord has His system of things, all in order, and that includes putting some over others, in righteousness. God establishes certain men to exercise authority, as evidenced by the scriptures I gave to CHB. (which you ignore or try to explain away, CHB?)
you may say you believe the Bible, james, but what I see you doing is picking, choosing, and changing whatever sounds good to you.
onlytruth, your dream wasn't from God.
even if it were, sparrow, people in the Lord don't praise each other for anything given by God - whether the dream or the interpretation. If God gives an interpretation (and he didn't), He gets the glory, not the person.
obviously apostle Paul wasn't saying what you say he was saying, reformer. 1) do you deny he gave the instructions that I quoted to CHB? (he doesn't contradict himself) 2) in galatians 1:18 (right after the verses you were quoting), he describes that he abode with Peter for 15 days and also saw James, Jesus' brother. 3) he also reports this-
Galatians 2:1-2 EMTV Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, also taking Titus along. (2) And I went up by revelation, and I set before them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those with influence, lest somehow I might run, or had run, for nothing.
so he did submit to those in authority in Jerusalem! he also required submission of those he ministered to and gave orders!
1 Corinthians 5:3-5 BBE For I myself, being present in spirit though not in body, have come to a decision about him who has done this thing; (4) In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you have come together with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, (5) That this man is to be handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may have forgiveness in the day of the Lord Jesus.
it amazes me to see how much praise you received for your letter, reformer. anyone who wishes to walk with the Lord needs to flee from your influence.
there are some excellent writings on Paul and Victor's site that address these issues-
Iniquity (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/iniquity.htm)
That Prophet part 2 (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/thatprophet2.htm)
The Big Lie Exposed (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehoodexposed/biglie.htm).
Hi witness
maybe you just dont see the Judgment in your post...im sure not going to Highlight them..
By all means share your veiw...and continue to do so :icon_flower:..BUT please SPARE your JUDGMENT
Ya Know even those pharisees WHO judged..forgot to Judge....gee what a Contradiction dont ya think :icon_flower:
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law,
judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
WOW ,those who Judged by the LAW forgot to Judge.....can ya tell me whats Missing?..
can ya help us out? :icon_flower:
cos some folk ARE in the dark, according to some....
Blessings Sister
Taffy :icon_flower:
Quote from: Witness on February 28, 2009, 02:14:31 AM
I know that those verses applied to my life, and He did exactly what He said by bringing division with my family and others when I believed and obeyed Him.
Sometimes we have to be careful about what actually caused division and what manifests from it. We can set a stage for evidence that appears to align with a verse, but really is not rooted in faith.
I assume you believe in the reconciliation of all mankind?
As I come to that belief and expressed that, I found division in my own household, so therefor I was seeing a manifestation of walking in faith as of course there is a verse that says that will happen. But I was deceived.
I was not deceived about the reconciliation of all mankind. I was a big assed jerk making accusations to my family I did not have the authority to make just because they did not believe what I was telling them.
A manifestation of faith took place within my family but it only happened when I was secure about what I believed and did not sway from it. Rather than railing on about this belief I had that everyone else should follow, I allowed God to do the work of convincing.
Interesting now, my family is coming to accept the concept of there not being eternal damnation and even a family friend is accepting that as well.
People can continue their accusations if they like, fortunatly, those accusations only have authority about as far as I can throw my house. Claiming that authority and actually having it are two entirely different things.
You know Witness, in a way I'd sort of like to take back the things I've posted to you, because I feel bad for you. I may be wrong, but I suspect you're being used, and are really a little one that needs to be loved and not injured. Please forgive me if I have done so, and I will be praying for you. I mean the content of what I've spoken, but again, believe you need a helping hand, not further pain inflicted. If these were purely your thoughts that would be one thing, but I don't think they are. May God provide you with special love, comfort, and a true light to your path.
James.
"And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His covering among themselves."
You are not a fool, just because you have thought something foolish; but only if the folly of it escapes you.
We will be carried to a higher place, even while we yet live!
Truly, truly, I say ...
peacemaker
Quote from: Witness on February 28, 2009, 02:14:31 AM
as for a hierarchy, the Lord has His system of things, all in order, and that includes putting some over others, in righteousness. God establishes certain men to exercise authority, as evidenced by the scriptures I gave...
There are authorities in the civil sphere, like kings and governors, over Adamic men, though not to the extent of denying the Lord who bought us. (cf., Rm 13:1-7) When our bodies are transfigured like unto Jesus body of glory, the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdom of our God and of His Christ. Even now we pursue, "Thy kingdom come , Thy will be done, in earth as it is in the heavens."
Church order is based on Christ, not Adam. "...whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ, in Whom...there is no male and female..." (Ga 3:27-28) In the Adam family, male is head of female. "Head" includes the idea of source, as, for example, when we speak of "the 'head'waters of the Nile." This is meant to refer to being one flesh, the great mystery, of Christ and the Church. Jesus is the head. If another is between the bride and her husband, telling her that to share intimate love with her husband she must go through him, what do you suppose that husband will do? and her husband is God!
Two orders exist: Adam and Christ. The nature of authority is very different for each. In Adam, being many individual souls, authority is external submission. It is heirarchical as the prophet Samual warned those of God's priestly nation how a king: "...will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties..." (1 Sa 8:12) This is not God's way for His royal Priesthood, then or now. It happened of old for our instruction. "Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations." (1 Sa 8:4-5) This is what so many who have various leadership titles are practising. Whether Pastor or Priest, Man of God, Bishop, so called Apostles and the like: many are at best mixtures if not altogether false. They are enabled by usurping the gifts and blessings from their audiences. Examine the account in 1 Samuel 8 and notice how the king we are warned of takes the tenth, or tithe.
If they would have a king over them God says, "...they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them." (1 Sa 8:7) "Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles." (1 Sa 8:19-20) The confusion is when instead of the gift of God within, which is God manifesting, men rather claim they have it to be in charge of other men. Real Elders maintain the Liberty of the Spirit to lead through any and every member's function. True servants of God connect us to our head, Christ Jesus, securing and enlarging that connection. Authority in the Body of Christ is God directly revealing Himself in us. Anything of Jesus more fully formed that I see in another is true authority. But, this is serving to bring about the same Image in me. This touches on the word of "purpose" that seems so little heard, that "we should ALL attain...into a mature (finished, perfect) man, into the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ...(Ep 4.13)
The New Covenant is, "Not in accord with the covenant which I make with their fathers In the day of My taking hold of their hand To be leading them out of the land of Egypt..." (He 8:9) No more, "Precious Lord, take my hand" because it is a union with Him rising within you. In the New Covenant, spoken of so long ago by the prophet Jeremiah, "the Lord is saying: 'Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them...'" (1 Sa 8:10) It is something you know by the Spirit within. It is absolutely not teachable. Someone outside of us cannot bring it about. "And by no means should each be teaching his fellow citizen, And each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord!' For all shall be acquainted with Me, From their little to their great..." (1 Sa 8:11) This is Immanuel, God-with-us, citizens in a kingdom where all of us are taught of God directly. It is Him within another that makes that one profit in this kingdom. What made Samuel or Moses, Elijah, Paul or John was God in them, not their flesh. The Adam heirarchy is not in the Church which is His body. The call is to come out of Babylon! "And I hear another voice out of heaven, saying, "Come out of her, My people, lest you should be joint participants in her sins, and lest you should be getting of her calamities..." (Rv 18:4)
"And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve." (Luke 22:25-26, AV) There's no hierarchy among those who are Jesus's disciples, period. We're simply working other lords when any but Jesus Himself rules over each of us directly. No problem with the boss in his office in the workplace. We honor the President in his Whitehouse. It's as the Church there's little benefit from external or legal rule. When a bunch of youngsters come running in, because I'm so big I can see over (episkopos) them, where they're going, what they're doing. Being younger they give me authority. "Now Johnny, stop that. All of you, quiet down. Cheryl, go find your mother. Everybody just take it back outside." And the greatest is slave of all. It's not how much I can bring healing or prophecy and the rest that determines my greatness. The measure of ministry is how much of the image of Christ, all he is and does, I can bring forth from others.
Because the practice of Gentile Authority is so prevelent among believers, most commonly under the title of Pastor, it is important to note that when God tells the story of the Church, which is mostly in the book of Acts, there is no Pastor ever mentioned. The only time of a possible mention in the N.T. is in the list of God's slaves in Ephesians 4:11; but, if we would be conformed to what is written, it is as inappropriate to apply it to what is done under that name today as it is to call the Pope and Apostle or believe official Mormon dignitaries are the prophet they are titled. In Acts 20:28 we do not have anyone being called a Pastor. The verb form of the word is describing a function, not labeling an office. This function of "shepherding" is something intinsic to every child of God, and, if allowed to mature, we will come into it as a natural matter of course. It's our nature, being born of the good and the great Shepherd. Also because that's Who is in us, as we increase in our availability to Him, which is what maturing really is, we operate in Shepherding ways, recognized or not. What Paul specifically warned them about was "from yourselves will arise men...to pull away disciples after themselves." (v.30) None of the apostles, only Jesus Himself is every said to have disciples. Really the one most common position today that comes closest to being defined by those warning words of Scripture are Pastors. Perhaps not all are burdensome (taking the resource of the flock) wolves (which run in packsand have their own social order) not sparing the flocklet (you cross them and you're eliminated, their "alpha male" dominance must be enforced.) To accomplish having the people under their discipline they "speak dia-strepho," meaning "through-turn," reminiscent of our "Spin Doctors." You can't directly find it in the word but they'll put a spin on it to keep you under them. We are under a real Jesus and nobody's supposed to be between Him and us. You can't get any higher authority , so it's difficult to understand why we should believe we must have lesser authorities (if that's what they are) over us to get to Jesus; but, then, that's their spin. They reveal that they don't want you to believe Jesus is as real as they are. It's hard to say only bad Pastors or Priests are in view when so much of what the apostle said is descriptive of the position.
your brother, James Rohde
Quote from: Witness on February 28, 2009, 02:14:31 AM
obviously apostle Paul wasn't saying what you say he was saying, reformer. 1) do you deny he gave the instructions that I quoted to CHB? (he doesn't contradict himself)
It is important to carefully examine the strongest apparent Biblical objection to the kingdom of God commonly made with Hebrews 13:17. The KJV, which many translations follow, has made up some things reflecting the understanding of those paying for the translators work: "Obey them that have the rule over you..." "Rule" isn't there in the original, neither is "over." It more literally has those who are "advanced in 'protecting and caretaking' (one word)." Additionally, this is not the usual word translated "obey," which is to do what somebody else tells you to do. The original is "yield," giving place to those who are already themselves doing something, or, "be persuaded." The subsequent phrase (KJV) "and submit yourselves," aside from the fact it is in question if one desires a pure text, may be translated as, "and be deferring to them." So we have, beginning with the context of maintaining sacrificial good deeds, "Yield to those who are advanced in protecting and caretaking (and be deferring to them, for they are vigilant for the sake of your souls..." Instead of being told to be doing what we're told to do by those who would rule over us, this has us making room for and going along with those in our midst who are doing good works, specially the kind of work that has to do with adjusting our souls to accord with the Lord Jesus Christ. (v.8) A similar phrase is in v.7, and instead of KJV: "Remember them that have the rule over you..." we should read, "Be remembering those who are in advance of you (or, those of your leaders) who speak to you the word of God, contemplating the sequel of their behavior, whose faith be imitating: Jesus Christ, yesterday and today, the Same into the eons also." (He 13:7-8, CLV)
(Don't falsely imagine I'm basing this on the Concordant Literal Version only. Anyone can do their own homework and discover what I've written is true.)
Quote from: Witness on February 28, 2009, 02:14:31 AM
2) in galatians 1:18 (right after the verses you were quoting), he describes that he abode with Peter for 15 days and also saw James, Jesus' brother. 3) he also reports this-
Galatians 2:1-2 EMTV Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, also taking Titus along. (2) And I went up by revelation, and I set before them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those with influence, lest somehow I might run, or had run, for nothing.
Quote from: Witness on February 28, 2009, 02:14:31 AM
so he did submit to those in authority in Jerusalem! he also required submission of those he ministered to and gave orders!
We really only need quote in context to what you refer:
Galatians 2:1-11 (CLV)...
1 Thereupon, after the lapse of fourteen years, I again went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus also along with me.
2 Now
I went up in accord with a revelation, and
submitted to them the evangel which I am heralding among the nations, yet privately to those of repute, lest somehow I should be racing or ran for naught.
What is stated is that it was the Gospel he preached that was submitted to them, not his own person.
3 But not even Titus, who is with me, being a Greek, is compelled to be circumcised.
4 Yet, it was because of the false brethren who were smuggled in, who came in by the way to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they shall be enslaving us-
5 to whom, not even for an hour do we simulate by subjection, that the truth of the evangel should be continuing with you.
6
Now from those reputed to be somewhat-what kind they once were is of no consequence to me (God is not taking up the human aspect)-for to me those of repute submitted nothing.This is how he regards those "supposed to be pillars!" He refuse to submit to those with James keeping the laws of Moses and says of the apostles that they are of no consequence" to him because, God is no respector of persons, He, "...is not taking up the human aspect."
7 But, on the contrary, preceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,
8 according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),
9 and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision-
10 only that we may be remembering the poor, which same thing I endeavor also to do.
Now this is immediately followed with:
11 Now when Cephas came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, for he was self-censured.
Mm...not very much submission to "authority" there! Just because many people do not understand the gospel's liberating us from the rule of other men does not invalidate the truth. No boss or law will be needed when accomplished is the purpose of God: to fill ALL things with Himself and cover all the earth with His glory as the waters cover the sea. No boss or law can get us there either! It is by grace which is the operation of God.
Quote from: Witness on February 28, 2009, 02:14:31 AM
so he did submit to those in authority in Jerusalem! he also required submission of those he ministered to and gave orders!
It is clear from the context Paul submitted the Gospel, not himself. Nowhere in Holy Scripture is this reported of Paul or any of the apostles, that they required submission to those they ministered to. It is rather an oxymoron in fact, since "minister" is another word for "slaving." That would have a slave subject his masters to himself. As I say, it in NOT written. This is something I'm now going very much into. I've already personally done exhaustive studies on what Greek words might seem to imply defiance of Jesus'clear teaching on the subject (cf., Lk 22:25-26). Paul repeatedly "entreats" or, "begs," never ordering them to obey. 1 Cor 7:10 is a good example, explaining where our commands are from: "And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord..." The Concordant Literal has: "Now to the married I am charging, not I, but the Lord..."
Quote from: Witness on February 28, 2009, 02:14:31 AM
so he did submit to those in authority in Jerusalem! he also required submission of those he ministered to and gave orders!
1 Corinthians 5:3-5 BBE For I myself, being present in spirit though not in body, have come to a decision about him who has done this thing; (4) In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you have come together with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, (5) That this man is to be handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may have forgiveness in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Again, to quote in context to what you refer clarifies this is not about somebody bossing anybody else around in the Church. It refers to something agreed on in the gathering of believers, with Paul's spirit and with the power of our Lord Jesus! (v.4)
1 Corinthians 5:1-8 (CLV)...
1 Absolutely, it is heard that there is prostitution among you, and such prostitution (which is not even named among the nations), so that someone has his father's wife.
2 And you are puffed up, and mourn not rather, that the one who commits this act may be taken away from your midst.
3 For I, indeed, being absent in body, yet present in spirit, have already, as if present, thus judged the one effecting this,
4 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
(you being gathered, and my spirit, together with the power of our Lord Jesus),
5
to give up such a one to Satan for the extermination of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Not ideal is your boast. Are you not aware that a little leaven is leavening the whole kneading?
7 Clean out, then, the old leaven, that you may be a fresh kneading, according as you are unleavened. For our Passover also, Christ, was sacrificed for our sakes
8 so that we may be keeping the festival, not with old leaven, nor yet with the leaven of evil and wickedness, but with unleavened sincerity and truth.
Quote from: Witness on February 28, 2009, 02:14:31 AM
it amazes me to see how much praise you received for your letter, reformer. anyone who wishes to walk with the Lord needs to flee from your influence.
If you or anyone wants to flee into the arms of Jesus, understand what I explain to you. Specially if there's a gathering of believers seeking to enter into being a body for Christ, the wife of the Lamb, seek into the way I point out here.
your brother, James Rohde
Good word, James :thumbsup:...context, rightly dividing....missed by many, needed by all...God will work all according to His will.
Do you realize how much time and labor goes into writing like that? not to mention the years of being dealt with by God. I'm counting dung here!
Useful and helpful bro. What the humble servant may consider as dung, many others may consider treasure. Glory be to God.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
--In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
I was raised with a love of freedom as my God given right. It is a gift from God to all men.
And for this I'm also grateful: He did not create us to be animals living by the law of the jungle--
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
--Gal 5
:cloud9: Thank You Father, for your servant James....... :thumbsup: Blessings.....
Quote from: Molly on February 28, 2009, 12:37:51 PM
[
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
--Gal 5
Where's the love? To paraphrase, if I know everything and have not love, then what good is my message?
Quoting Card here: Paul was what the Lord called to me, an "overlapper", in that he walked in the flesh in his time allotted to him on earth, but he walked in the Spirit in things that were for the next age. Paul was the type of man that was to know Him, not after the flesh but after the Spirit. This RELATIONSHIP is what gave him preeminence over the other disciples, because his relationship MANIFESTED Him.
True authority is not in ruling over another after the flesh man, but true authority comes out of the heart of Christ within, for that heart has been circumcised and made upright, able to reproduce His nature in others, and it comes to you in the nature of a lover, ie. love is kind, love is gentle, ect.
Love does not beat the sheep with the rod of authority, presuming to take them captive for themselves that they might direct their path, but "marks" them by instilling the mind of Christ into them, and thereby separates them unto Him, that they can learn to hear His voice and follow Him for themselves, producing the fruit of a true shepherd who leads the flock to the Master, ie. "Where can we go, for thou hast the words of life?" Blessings...
Hi Witness
The word subject is the Greek word hupotasso and has two different aspects.
It is a Greek military term meaning to arrange troop divisions in a military fashion under the command of a leader.
There is only one leader/ONE Head to this army and that is Christ and all must subject themselves and give obedience to Him and NONE other.
The other aspect of subjection is a voluntary attitude of cooperating with one another, assuming responsibility for one another and carrying the burdens of one another.
So when Peter says for the younger to submit themselves to the elder, Peter is saying for the younger to voluntary cooperate and carry the elder's burdens. Thus Peter goes on to say to ALL that we are to do likewise, subjecting ourselves one to another, voluntarily carrying one another's burdens.
This aspect is NOT about rule but about the proper method of using each member of the body where needed.
1Peter 5:5
reFORMer,
Just wanted to say, you did a wonderful job writing your posts. I agree with everything you said. :thumbsup:
CHB
Witness,
I just thought of something while writing a post in another thread.
Paul said in (Eph. 2:6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ.
(Col. 2:12) Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
If we are sitting in Christ in heaven and are a citizen of heaven now, why the need to follow any man? We are spiritually already there. We don't need any man to teach us if we are sitting in Christ and are already a citizen of heaven do we?
CHB
:cloud9: I like that study there Pneuma..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on February 26, 2009, 08:18:52 PM
Quote from: PAUL COHENTaffy, what you have done doesn't look good because it isn't good. But you don't care about the latter, only the former – how things look. You are a proud and wretched creature, and you will know it.
:cloud9: Paul, I read this night before last, and I was appalled. I decided to sleep on it as I was tired and edgy. Today I'm not tired and I'm not edgy, and I STILL feel I want to reply to this, so here goes.
I have been listening the voice of the Lord for nearly 24 years now, and the first 2 years of my walk, He told me I was going to walk in His judgment (dispensing it as well as Him judging MY flesh with it), and I did. I didn't want to give some of the words I did; I hated seeing prosperous churches close their doors within 2 - 4 months (or remove the pastor in one way or another), after such a word was given to the pastors, but I was obedient.
But in all that time, and as the bearer of some pretty stern words, I have NEVER heard the Lord speak to degrade or humiliate (even over some of the vilest hidden sins imaginable that were revealed to me), ANY of those He chastised. Instead He spoke lovingly of what He had purposed them for, urged repentance over the revealed missing of the mark, and then revealed what would come to pass if they did not choose to hear Him in the matter.
God has a pattern to His use of the speaking gifts, beyond what I have shared here, and you are not displaying it. You are not displaying it, because it has not been given to you to speak to the body, and will not be, until you first go through a cleansing of the motives of your heart for doing so. This is a process we have to go thru because otherwise, spirits of rape, murder, hate, vengeance, ect., will contaminate or even instigate, the message, causing the tongue to "fork" (think serpent), ie. unable to hit the mark. I hope you sit before Him on this before you reply, if you do. Blessings.....
james, it isn't my opinion that you're picking and choosing the Scriptures you want to believe. it's what I see you doing. I gave you Matthew 23, and you simply discarded it (or explain it away) talking about a "super literal translation of that verse."
I also gave you this- God also said, "2 Corinthians 6:17-18 Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you (18) and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
but you don't even acknowledge the clear directions the scriptures give!
as to the type of separation, I was directly led there, as I tried to describe to you, but I was also warned that it would happen (and I didn't believe it)! Then the Lord did that with me, and I was amazed and i knew that Victor and paul had spoken to me the truth.
i don't really understand why you keep implying that my letters are being written for me. I have been fully expressing myself to you! and if I have gotten help from those over me in the Lord, what is that to you? Why do you leap to the conclusion that it's an evil thing? does the Lord not say He is a Body? that is how he has made us to be.
CHB- I wasn't meaning to imply that I have been given ALL the truth. but if the Lord is the Truth, and He is in me, then I do have all the Truth! isn't this according to the Scriptures? yes, it was said of the Son that he didn't know the day the Father would restore the Kingdom, but what He didn't know, he knew he didn't know and didn't say! when a man of God is given something to say to you (as Paul and victor were), you can't disregard it saying "you can't know ALL things"! what they know from the Lord, they say, and they don't go beyond that. So when everyone here disregards the word God gave them to preach, they throw God away, for He is who gave it to them!!!
reformer- it seems that you were fishing for the praise of men for your post, and now you are receiving it. you now have your reward, according to Jesus-
Matthew 6:2-3 Therefore when you do your merciful deeds, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may have glory from men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward. (3) But when you do merciful deeds, do not let your left hand know what your right hand does.
and you weren't even doing a merciful deed! because your post was full of twisting of the scriptures! just like Peter said many did with apostle Paul's letters. all you did was what I described the other james doing- picking and choosing what you want to beleve.
You said-
We really only need quote in context to what you refer:
Galatians 2:1-11 (CLV)...
1 Thereupon, after the lapse of fourteen years, I again went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus also along with me.
2 Now I went up in accord with a revelation, and submitted to them the evangel which I am heralding among the nations, yet privately to those of repute, lest somehow I should be racing or ran for naught.
What is stated is that it was the Gospel he preached that was submitted to them, not his own person.
3 But not even Titus, who is with me, being a Greek, is compelled to be circumcised.
4 Yet, it was because of the false brethren who were smuggled in, who came in by the way to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they shall be enslaving us-
5 to whom, not even for an hour do we simulate by subjection, that the truth of the evangel should be continuing with you.
6 Now from those reputed to be somewhat-what kind they once were is of no consequence to me (God is not taking up the human aspect)-for to me those of repute submitted nothing.
This is how he regards those "supposed to be pillars!" He refuse to submit to those with James keeping the laws of Moses and says of the apostles that they are of no consequence" to him because, God is no respector of persons, He, "...is not taking up the human aspect."
You can see from what comes before verse 6, that apostle Paul is not talking about the other apostles in verse 6, but is talking about "false brethren." The apostles of God are not false brethren!!! (wow! look at all the work I could have saved you with all your reasoning that now you have to throw away!)
as for "obeying the rule" vs. "yielding to the caretaking" in essence what's the difference?
when I've obeyed the rule, I am yielding to the caretaking!
Hebrews 13:17 Yield to those leading you, and be submissive, for they watch for your souls, as those who must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you.
the authority of men of God is everywhere in the scriptures, here are a couple more verses-
1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in Word and doctrine.
2 Corinthians 10:8-9 For even if I also should boast somewhat more fully of our authority (which the Lord has given us for building up, and not for pulling you down) I will not be put to shame; (9) so that I might not seem to terrify you by letters.
building up is only for those who are Christ's! those are the ones God corrects!
Hebrews 12:8 But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons.
james-jabcat, back to you (sorry this is scattered). You asked me once:
In other words, had you called on Jesus, believed on Him as your Savior before, but needed some things clarified, taught to you, changes made in your life before you could enter into what you now consider "the true", i.e., Victor and Paul's ministry? Thanks, James.
I had believed myself a christian all my life. then when I was a teen, I had a conversion experience to the Lord wherein i began to call upon His name seeking the truth. i also became very religious. for about a year and a half, I listened to many different christian programs and tv and read many books. i was hungry for the truth from God.
It was only when i met paul and Victor that I knew that I was hearing true words directly from Him! it was so exciting. As I was led, step by step, through repentance of my false religious ways, and as my family situation grew hotter and hotter (my mother also being religious didn't like what was happening to me at all!), I knew there was no way I could try to play both sides. I couldn't hold onto my church and family but also walk with god, who was calling me to be His!
through the steps of walking with the Lord through His servants, Victor and Paul, I have experienced victory over sins- masturbation in particular (with which I was in bondage for as long as I can remember, even though religious and wanting to quit!!!) and I was delivered from devils (once again, being religious and holding certain doctrines couldn't help me there!). I also received the Spirit through them, as i described, and what a wonderful thing to have the Lord within me!
perhaps you thought I was speaking loosely when i spoke of the freedom experienced when realizing it is about the Lord, not about doctrines – He came to give us life! but until you experience these things for yourself – His direct hand in healing, delivring, causing you to walk with Him in truth, all you have is theory! and that is what I see here, in this forum, a bunch of theory – and a lot of bad theory at that- the Scriptures don't line up with what you people are saying!
you can wonder how my belief in UR fits in with all of this. I know for a fact that God is going to bring everyone to this same knowledge of Him, through His work in their life. His people speaking the truth and confronting darkness is part of that great work from Him.
reformer, you said that the scripture I quoted at top here (2 Cor. 6:17-18) is talking about Babylon. yes, it is. it is babylon that the Lord caused me to forsake. it is babylon that I see all of you partaking of – confusion. that is why you theorize and explain away the basic truths of Scripture without knowing God!
2 Timothy 3:7 ever learning and never able to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
james -jabcat, you suspect I am a little one. it is true, i am a little one, and the Lord prayed-
Matthew 11:25-26 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the sophisticated and cunning, and revealed them to babes. (26) Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
so, firstborn, all of this that I relate answers what you said-
Paul and Victor are failures as we all are. They will fail you witness. They are cursing what God has blessed and that is just so much B.S.
in the flesh, yes, paul and Victor are failures just as we all are! but the Lord is with/in them, giving them truth to speak in the Spirit, and in that truth He has made them faithful! they are walking in the Lord, in what He has given to them, and if a person is doing that, they are not a failure! the Lord is that person's savior!!!
Victor and Paul did not curse what God has blessed. they have not even cursed anyone here! they told the hard truth to those who needed to hear it. and what they had to say to me brought me to deliverance and faith in the Lord, and what they had for you was true and necessary, and none of this is B.S.!
CHB- you just asked me a question. all of the above amply answers it. please let me know if for some reason you think it doesn't.
firstborn, you say God is your God without them. if your god is not their God, your god is not the true God. Amen!
"james, it isn't my opinion that you're picking and choosing the Scriptures you want to believe. it's what I see you doing."
:sigh: :faint: As far as I know, you're not as yet immortal. So because you're human, much of what you think is an opinion, an understanding, an interpretation, some things perhaps a revelation...and it often comes across as judging and/or criticizing. This included your opinion/judgment that I'm picking/choosing/manipulating scripture. Don't you realize if I wanted to be judgmental and critical, I could say the same about you? You don't know what God's done in my heart and life, as man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.
Do you grasp that all of us understand in part? That we see through a glass darkly? It sounds as if you believe you have the absolute truth/that if anyone doesn't say the words correctly as approved by your leaders, then perhaps they don't know God? Is that correct? Is there anyone in the world besides the exact number in your group that are saved? You answer my questions about your thoughts and conversations being guided by others, with questions...not openly/transparently/directly answering my questions. I suspect there's a reason for that. I'm afraid you may be past the point of being able to hear what a brother or sister outside your immediate realm of influence says. If so that's sad.
It's great that God has done gracious things in your life. But if you judge and condemn your brethren, remember; I'll say again...call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved. Believe on the Lord Jesus and you and your house will be saved. With what measure of judgment you mete it will be meted to you. Selah.
Will continue praying for you, James.
All I really perceive here Witness is people partaking in what almost everyone does their whole life, trying to work through the bits of truth that are given us.
I have read some of Paul and Victors writings and I find things I agree with. My agreement or disagreement has nothing to do with whether they can claim to have the whole truth.
Their comments about me are entirely irrevalent as they have no clue and are apparently not even interested in the path my life has taken.
If they think they are walking in the spirit by what they have said, then I'll be glad for the destruction they believe is coming my way, because I will not be like that because that is not what God has worked on me to be.
I write this for the readers of this thread as Paul thinks I am arguing with him when I respond to his assertions so he needs to understand that I am not doing so to try to convince him otherwise. In fact if he wants to copy and past this into his cute "Blog war" and make a comment on it. great. Go ahead, if thats walking in the spirit, you can have it, thanks.
Quote from: Witness on March 01, 2009, 12:09:29 AM
So when everyone here disregards the word God gave them to preach, they throw God away (?), for He is who gave it to them!!!
It was only when i met paul and Victor that I knew that I was hearing true words directly (?) from Him!
I also received the Spirit through them (?), as i described, and what a wonderful thing to have the Lord within me! (Last acknowledgment is without question)
He came to give us life! but until you experience these things for yourself – His direct hand in healing, delivering, causing you to walk with Him in truth, all you have is theory! and that is what I see here, in this forum, a bunch of theory – and a lot of bad theory at that - the Scriptures don't line up with what you people are saying! (Nor entirely to what is indicated by the question marks)
2 Timothy 3:7 ever learning and never able to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
The perpetual correctors understand the importance of truth, but often fail in the requirements of love, and kindness. And they will promptly defend their own thoughts, not at variance with their personal expectations, nor contrary to their own interests.
"Faith doesn't start with head knowledge, it begins with experiences."And, you LORD are the AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF MY FAITH!
So, LORD, what is it you want me to do?
I know you want me to walk in your ways, learn of you, cast my burdens on you, and stand on your Word.
You are the anchor of my hope and the things you desire for me are good. I'm waiting on you, Lord, to renew my strength. Your "Spirit of Truth" will not lead me into error. Your Word is life-giving. You are the discerner of the thought, and intents of the heart – not man.
My Lord and my God, your ears are open to those who walk righteously before you. You tell me to ask for wisdom in faith and you shall give it to me liberally. Search me, Lord, reveal through your "Spirit" any way that is not pleasing to you. Let me be sensitive to the engrafted Word that can save my soul.
Your Holy Spirit residing within me will teach me all I need to know. You reward those who diligently seek you. Your face, Lord, do I seek. I desire to obey your Word and walk after you; to leave the past behind and go forward in the hope of your high calling.
I desire things that are spiritually discerned. Yes, my soul thirsts for the "living God." This entire world is vanity, but your Word endures forever. I call to you and you hear me. Your ear is inclined from heaven toward me. You guide me with your eye, and establish my comings and goings. Lead me to the Rock that is higher than I. Cover me in the shelter of your wings. Do not forsake the work of your hands.
A man devises his way, but, you, Lord, direct my steps. I look not to the right or left, but keep my eyes fixed on you from whom my help comes. Nothing can separate me from your love or pluck me out of the Father's hand. My members are written in your life; even the hairs of my head you have numbered.
I praise you for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. I am your workmanship, a masterpiece in Christ Jesus created for good works, which you preordained. Your thoughts are higher than my thoughts, and your ways are higher than mine.
The Holy Spirit, who searches the deepest things of God, and who you gave me as a comforter, testifies with my spirit of your will and truth. Jesus, even now, you are at the right hand of the Father continually interceding on my behalf. You knew me and loved me before the foundation of the world. You have predestined me to be conformed to the image of your Son. Though my faith must be purified by fire, I know that you will never leave me nor forsake me.
Lord, you have all the answers, seeing the beginning from the end. Hear now the supplication of your child that I may discern and obey your will. Reveal to me by faith through divine revelation (not by sight, feelings, or mans opinions) – the steps I must take to walk in the center of your will. Your wisdom is first pure, then holy, gentle, reasonable, kind and impartial.
Lord, you work all things together for the good of those who love you, and who are called according to your purpose. I thank you, Lord, for the painful situations you have allowed in my life for they have turned my face back toward my first love. If it be your will, I will be healed from these infirmities. If not, your grace and provision of unfailing love shall be sufficient for me.
Thank you for the gifts you have given me and for the talents I have yet to discover. I give them back to you. Do whatever you will with them for your pleasure. Thank you for helping me to pray, and for showing me how to forgive. May I continue to mature in you.
Father, you are so worthy of praise and adoration. You loved me so much that you sent your Son into the world, giving me life more abundantly, so that I could be restored to you. Filling this life with your presence. Put a new song of praise in my heart. Purify my heart and tame my tongue.
The bondage I was once in has no place in the "Spirit-filled life." I choose to lay it all at the foot of the cross and leave it there. Anyone whom the Son sets free is free indeed. When you ask, "Will you be made whole?" I answer, yes! May my hearing be opened and the eyes of my understanding behold who you truly are in me, and what you truly think of me. Before a word is in my mouth, Lord, you know it already. You know the desires of my heart better than I do.
I trust you, Lord, and love you with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength. Order my steps in the way that is pleasing to you – and you alone. Fill me with your peace and lead me in the way I should go. Though I am a sinner, Lord, you uphold me with your righteous right hand. Your Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. In you there is no darkness at all. Everything is revealed and clear in your eyes.
You are my strength and shield, my protector, my provider, my healer, my ever-present help in times of trouble. You shall not let me be moved. You are my high tower, my Father, prince of Peace, savior, friend, and the precious one who is with me – wherever I go. You are my rock, my defense, my counselor and my hope. With you, Lord, all things are possible.
I commit my way to you, Lord, knowing that you establish my thoughts. I will be joyful because you have overcome the world. You know what I need and I trust you, standing on your promises because you cannot lie.
Thank you, Lord, for being patient with me and for pulling my feet out of the miry clay, setting me on a rock. I look to you, Lord, Author and Finisher of my faith, for I know that if I ask anything according to your will, you hear me and will grant the petitions I seek from you.
Blessed is the name of the Lord!
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."peacemaker
Witness, honestly, do any of these things look familiar to you?
The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
The group/leader is always right.
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, etc.)
The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.
Exploit Personal Crisis - They use an existing crisis as a means of getting you to participate. They exploit vulnerability arising from:
Broken relationships
Death in the family
Loss of job
Move to new location
Loneliness/depression
Guilt/shame
Stress/fear
Quote from: Witness on March 01, 2009, 12:09:29 AM
they told the hard truth to those who needed to hear it.
So did I.
Quote from: peacemaker on March 01, 2009, 05:36:21 AM
Quote from: Witness on March 01, 2009, 12:09:29 AM
So when everyone here disregards the word God gave them to preach, they throw God away (?), for He is who gave it to them!!!
It was only when i met paul and Victor that I knew that I was hearing true words directly (?) from Him!
I also received the Spirit through them (?), as i described, and what a wonderful thing to have the Lord within me! (Last acknowledgment is without question)
He came to give us life! but until you experience these things for yourself – His direct hand in healing, delivering, causing you to walk with Him in truth, all you have is theory! and that is what I see here, in this forum, a bunch of theory – and a lot of bad theory at that - the Scriptures don't line up with what you people are saying! (Nor entirely to what is indicated by the question marks)
2 Timothy 3:7 ever learning and never able to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
The perpetual correctors understand the importance of truth, but often fail in the requirements of love, and kindness. And they will promptly defend their own thoughts, not at variance with their personal expectations, nor contrary to their own interests.
"Faith doesn't start with head knowledge, it begins with experiences."
And, you LORD are the AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF MY FAITH!
So, LORD, what is it you want me to do?
I know you want me to walk in your ways, learn of you, cast my burdens on you, and stand on your Word.
You are the anchor of my hope and the things you desire for me are good. I'm waiting on you, Lord, to renew my strength. Your "Spirit of Truth" will not lead me into error. Your Word is life-giving. You are the discerner of the thought, and intents of the heart – not man.
My Lord and my God, your ears are open to those who walk righteously before you. You tell me to ask for wisdom in faith and you shall give it to me liberally. Search me, Lord, reveal through your "Spirit" any way that is not pleasing to you. Let me be sensitive to the engrafted Word that can save my soul.
Your Holy Spirit residing within me will teach me all I need to know. You reward those who diligently seek you. Your face, Lord, do I seek. I desire to obey your Word and walk after you; to leave the past behind and go forward in the hope of your high calling.
I desire things that are spiritually discerned. Yes, my soul thirsts for the "living God." This entire world is vanity, but your Word endures forever. I call to you and you hear me. Your ear is inclined from heaven toward me. You guide me with your eye, and establish my comings and goings. Lead me to the Rock that is higher than I. Cover me in the shelter of your wings. Do not forsake the work of your hands.
A man devises his way, but, you, Lord, direct my steps. I look not to the right or left, but keep my eyes fixed on you from whom my help comes. Nothing can separate me from your love or pluck me out of the Father's hand. My members are written in your life; even the hairs of my head you have numbered.
I praise you for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. I am your workmanship, a masterpiece in Christ Jesus created for good works, which you preordained. Your thoughts are higher than my thoughts, and your ways are higher than mine.
The Holy Spirit, who searches the deepest things of God, and who you gave me as a comforter, testifies with my spirit of your will and truth. Jesus, even now, you are at the right hand of the Father continually interceding on my behalf. You knew me and loved me before the foundation of the world. You have predestined me to be conformed to the image of your Son. Though my faith must be purified by fire, I know that you will never leave me nor forsake me.
Lord, you have all the answers, seeing the beginning from the end. Hear now the supplication of your child that I may discern and obey your will. Reveal to me by faith through divine revelation (not by sight, feelings, or mans opinions) – the steps I must take to walk in the center of your will. Your wisdom is first pure, then holy, gentle, reasonable, kind and impartial.
Lord, you work all things together for the good of those who love you, and who are called according to your purpose. I thank you, Lord, for the painful situations you have allowed in my life for they have turned my face back toward my first love. If it be your will, I will be healed from these infirmities. If not, your grace and provision of unfailing love shall be sufficient for me.
Thank you for the gifts you have given me and for the talents I have yet to discover. I give them back to you. Do whatever you will with them for your pleasure. Thank you for helping me to pray, and for showing me how to forgive. May I continue to mature in you.
Father, you are so worthy of praise and adoration. You loved me so much that you sent your Son into the world, giving me life more abundantly, so that I could be restored to you. Filling this life with your presence. Put a new song of praise in my heart. Purify my heart and tame my tongue.
The bondage I was once in has no place in the "Spirit-filled life." I choose to lay it all at the foot of the cross and leave it there. Anyone whom the Son sets free is free indeed. When you ask, "Will you be made whole?" I answer, yes! May my hearing be opened and the eyes of my understanding behold who you truly are in me, and what you truly think of me. Before a word is in my mouth, Lord, you know it already. You know the desires of my heart better than I do.
I trust you, Lord, and love you with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength. Order my steps in the way that is pleasing to you – and you alone. Fill me with your peace and lead me in the way I should go. Though I am a sinner, Lord, you uphold me with your righteous right hand. Your Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. In you there is no darkness at all. Everything is revealed and clear in your eyes.
You are my strength and shield, my protector, my provider, my healer, my ever-present help in times of trouble. You shall not let me be moved. You are my high tower, my Father, prince of Peace, savior, friend, and the precious one who is with me – wherever I go. You are my rock, my defense, my counselor and my hope. With you, Lord, all things are possible.
I commit my way to you, Lord, knowing that you establish my thoughts. I will be joyful because you have overcome the world. You know what I need and I trust you, standing on your promises because you cannot lie.
Thank you, Lord, for being patient with me and for pulling my feet out of the miry clay, setting me on a rock. I look to you, Lord, Author and Finisher of my faith, for I know that if I ask anything according to your will, you hear me and will grant the petitions I seek from you.
Blessed is the name of the Lord!
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."
peacemaker
AMEN and PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME. THANK YOU ABBA
:cloud9: Amen PM...... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Witness
CHB- I wasn't meaning to imply that I have been given ALL the truth. but if the Lord is the Truth, and He is in me, then I do have all the Truth! isn't this according to the Scriptures? yes, it was said of the Son that he didn't know the day the Father would restore the Kingdom, but what He didn't know, he knew he didn't know and didn't say! when a man of God is given something to say to you (as Paul and victor were), you can't disregard it saying "you can't know ALL things"! what they know from the Lord, they say, and they don't go beyond that. So when everyone here disregards the word God gave them to preach, they throw God away, for He is who gave it to them!!!
Witness,
Please don't be offended by what I am about to say. I mean no harm and am saying this only to try to show you that you are following men and not God.
In the above you said "if the Lord is the truth and he is in me, then I do have all the truth". Then you go on to say what paul and Victor has given you. From reading your posts it seems to me that you are more
in Paul and Victor than you are
in Christ, or Christ
in you. You speak about how through Paul and Victor you received the Spirit, and how they are from God, how they are sent by God. Your posts seem to give more honor and glory to Paul and Victor than they do Christ for the things that have happened in your life.
John said, "the truth shall make you free". (John 8:36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. by the sound of your posts you are not free, you are in bounds to men.
I am just trying to get you to see what you are saying and the way it sounds. Go back and read your posts and pretend someone else wrote them and you can see what I am talking about.
I use to be where you are now and it grieves me to see someone else in the same frame of mind I was, looking to man for your spiritual well being. You do have one advantage that I didn't have at that time, you believe in the salvation of all, thank God for that. Thank God for bringing me out of the frame of mind of thinking I needed a man to teach me. :happy3:
CHB
Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths, which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ; let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and in worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh,
If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances? -- thou mayest not touch, nor taste, nor handle -- Colossians 2:16-20
'And judge not, and ye may not be judged; condemn not, and ye may not be condemned; release, and ye shall be released.Luke 6:37
no longer, therefore, may we judge one another, but this judge ye rather, not to put a stumbling-stone before the brother, or an offence. Romans 14:13
But if ever we also, or a messsenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! Galatians 1:8
james, I have given you scriptures and the understanding God has given me, which you and no one else here can argue against. that is not opinion. you only answer me with opinion, and expect that to override facts!
definition of opinion: "a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty."
i have both proof and certainty. you have neither. do you think, therefore, it is impossible to have both?
you said-
This included your opinion/judgment that I'm picking/choosing/manipulating scripture. Don't you realize if I wanted to be judgmental and critical, I could say the same about you?
no, you can't say the same about me, james. but you subtly do so now anyway, because you are a false accuser.
you also say-
It sounds as if you believe you have the absolute truth/that if anyone doesn't say the words correctly as approved by your leaders, then perhaps they don't know God?
this isn't about getting words correct. it's about having (or not having) the repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that you claim to have. when someone makes claims, it is required of me to see the fruits before i believe those claims. but I see evil fruits from you- false accusing and insinuating evil where there is none and no proof of any.
you also say-
You answer my questions about your thoughts and conversations being guided by others, with questions
obviously you didn't pay attention to the straightforward answer I gave before my questions.
i'm not judging and condeming my brethren- you are not my brother in Christ. you come at me subtly as an enemy, and expect that I would esteem you as a brother?
but you know who the accuser of the brethren of christ is!
Genesis 3:1 HNV Now the serpent was more subtle than any animal of the field which the LORD God had made. ...
Revelation 12:9-10 MKJV And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (10) And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
so no, james, none of your marks of a cult apply to me and my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ.
i challenge you to see the Lord's standard, however, of a cult.
Read The True Marks of a Cult.
(http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehoodexposed/truemarkscult.htm)
you keep quoting, james, "with what measure of judgment you mete...." that certainly applies to you, who judge unrighteous judgment (hence your false accusations, subtle hints, and opinions). to his saints, jesus said-
John 7:24 MKJV Do not judge according to sight [you do nothing but, james], but judge righteous judgment.
paul H. you have some sarcasm in your post. Is that walking in the Spirit?
also, you say-
Their comments about me are entirely irrevalent as they have no clue and are apparently not even interested in the path my life has taken.
why do you say they are not interested? because they are not on this forum answering you? don't you know they were kicked off?
besides they demonstrated their interest in your life by answering you with substance on their site. if you want to talk to them, why don't you write them rather than complain about them behind their backs on a blog they can no longer access?
I can safely say, peacemaker, that you don't know the Lord, and therefore you do the opposite of what your name describes. you need to stop being religious and comforting yourself with your false prayer. what else could a prayer be that is coming from another subtle accuser of the brethren?
also, Jesus said-
Matthew 6:5-7 MKJV And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward. (6) But you, when you pray, enter into your room. And shutting your door, pray to your Father in secret; and your Father who sees in secret shall reward you openly. (7) But when you pray, do not babble vain words, as the nations. For they think that in their much speaking they shall be heard.
you may have spoken what is hard, firstborn, but I saw no truth in any of your posts.
CHB- i'm not the one who is making Victor and Paul the issue here. you are by trying to discredit them, so you can throw out the truth they told you.
you say-
In the above you said "if the Lord is the truth and he is in me, then I do have all the truth". Then you go on to say what paul and Victor has given you.
no, i didn't go on to say what paul and victor gave to me. I went on to say that when a man of God is given something to say to you (as they were to those on this forum), you can't discard it, for the reasons I gave.
and if I did receive all those things that I related, and I did, through the ministry given to Victor and Paul, by the will and grace of God, why do you argue and fight against that? haven't I given you ample evidence against the position you take- that believers don't need a man of God to teach them?
why do you think God appointed these ministries in the Body of Christ?
1 Corinthians 12:28-30 And God set some in the church, firstly, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers, then works of power, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, kinds of languages. (29) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power? (30) Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
what do you do with all these, CHB?
if no one is in need of teaching or correction, why are there teachers, prophets, and apostles appointed?
but these are appointed for the Body of Christ, not for independent tares.
OK Sarah, I tried to gently reason with you. At this point I will choose to turn the other cheek. Your unrighteous judgment of me is between you and God.
However, as a moderator, I clearly inform you that directly presuming to pass judgment on someone's salvation is considered a personal attack and is not allowed on the forum. Although I won't directly remove your posts or ban you for further personally attacking me, if you continue that mode of behavior, be informed that another mod may choose to do so. And if I observe you directly attacking someone other than myself, then I will do so.
As God empowers me, I will be forgiving and praying for you. Your unrecognized brother, James.
It is surprising how many cannot even accept and even revile the direct unmediated authority of God Himself to His people; yet, they go to great lengths to defend the authority of men who stand in God's place! They call me rebellious, they say I have a spirit of deception, that I'm an anarchist for this reason. Do you realize (in my experience,) the common people hear me gladly? it is the religious professionals who're robbed of sight and that do the reviling?
Quote from: Witness on March 01, 2009, 12:09:29 AM
reformer- it seems that you were fishing for the praise of men for your post, and now you are receiving it. you now have your reward, according to Jesus-
Matthew 6:2-3 Therefore when you do your merciful deeds, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may have glory from men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward. (3) But when you do merciful deeds, do not let your left hand know what your right hand does.
and you weren't even doing a merciful deed! because your post was full of twisting of the scriptures!
You keep mentioning my post (#147 ?) but I made 2 (two) posts!!! I may have the wrong impression, but it seems you skipped over my post # 146. Very important stuff in it! Doubly so for you!! I hoped you personally would get the grand idea that in various ways I seek to point out. It is simply that to directly connect us to God Jesus suffered and died, and is raised to permanent life as the
Kurios "the ultimate authority" and as our only mediator. Once brought into intimacy with THE LORD all other relationships are beneath us! All genuine authority at best is secondary and derived from the Lord Jesus. He allows no other mediators. Our being directly related to Him is to be under His own highest authority. No one else is to be in bed with Jesus and His virgin bride.
John 5:41-44 (CLV)...
41 "Glory from men I am not getting.
42 But I know you, that you have not the love of God in yourselves.
43 I have come in the name of My Father, and you are not getting Me. If another should be coming in his own name, him you will get.
44
How can you believe, getting glory from one another, and are not seeking the glory which is from God alone?As for "fishing for the praise of men," as you say, a little reflection on your part and you would realize: I certainly display enough intelligence to chose words that flatter the authorities of other men if their praise (and monies) was my aim. In other words, I could do so much better that repudiate any and all authority in the Church that is claimed by multitudes of men. Can you imagine any of them hiring me for a "pastor/teacher?" I would have the passive audience change to every-member participation, doing the Pastors work and more, while we would guard the Liberty, preventing whoever would take over the meeting from doing so. Have I done this to myself for my own gain? If it was from a deception of the devil why would I point men to Jesus and Jesus alone? Surely His reality over-rides every other source!!! Come to Him and devils or other men (including your own heart) could never deceive you!
Quote from: Witness on March 01, 2009, 12:09:29 AM
reformer- it seems that you were fishing for the praise of men for your post, and now you are receiving it. you now have your reward, according to Jesus-
Matthew 6:2-3 Therefore when you do your merciful deeds, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may have glory from men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward. (3) But when you do merciful deeds, do not let your left hand know what your right hand does.
and you weren't even doing a merciful deed! because your post was full of twisting of the scriptures! just like Peter said many did with apostle Paul's letters. all you did was what I described the other james doing- picking and choosing what you want to beleve.
You said-
We really only need quote in context to what you refer:
Galatians 2:1-11 (CLV)...
1 Thereupon, after the lapse of fourteen years, I again went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus also along with me.
2 Now I went up in accord with a revelation, and submitted to them the evangel which I am heralding among the nations, yet privately to those of repute, lest somehow I should be racing or ran for naught.
What is stated is that it was the Gospel he preached that was submitted to them, not his own person.
3 But not even Titus, who is with me, being a Greek, is compelled to be circumcised.
4 Yet, it was because of the false brethren who were smuggled in, who came in by the way to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they shall be enslaving us-
5 to whom, not even for an hour do we simulate by subjection, that the truth of the evangel should be continuing with you.
6 Now from those reputed to be somewhat-what kind they once were is of no consequence to me (God is not taking up the human aspect)-for to me those of repute submitted nothing.
This is how he regards those "supposed to be pillars!" He refuse to submit to those with James keeping the laws of Moses and says of the apostles that they are of no consequence" to him because, God is no respector of persons, He, "...is not taking up the human aspect."
You can see from what comes before verse 6, that apostle Paul is not talking about the other apostles in verse 6, but is talking about "false brethren." The apostles of God are not false brethren!!! (wow! look at all the work I could have saved you with all your reasoning that now you have to throw away!)
After speaking of the false brethren, he changes to whom he refers and comes to another point in saying, "Now." (v.6) Something similar is seen in 1 Corithians where he repeatedly takes up various topics, introducing them with the phrase, "Now concerning..." Here, it is, "Now from those reputed to be somewhat..." He has returned to the apostles with whom he was interacting. In the very next verse (7) he says, "But, on the contrary, preceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision..." Who these were that were perceiving Paul were those who offered, "The right hand of fellowship." (v.9) This "fellowship" was not accepted from those Paul refused submission to for the sake of the gospel! Those of "repute," meaning: "create an opinion by the impression produced on the senses or mind or imagination, not necessarily true" (A. E. Knoch) were NOT "the false brethren who were smuggled in" (v.4) who were those of ill repute! The other apostles, "James, and Cephas and John..." which Paul goes on to speak of their repute as, "....supposed to be pillars," give to Paul "and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship." (loc.cit., Ga 2:9, CLV)
(continued...)
Quote from: Witness on March 01, 2009, 12:09:29 AM
as for "obeying the rule" vs. "yielding to the caretaking" in essence what's the difference?
when I've obeyed the rule, I am yielding to the caretaking!
Hebrews 13:17 Yield to those leading you, and be submissive, for they watch for your souls, as those who must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you.
the authority of men of God is everywhere in the scriptures,
The authority of men of God is GOD!!! not themselves. They cast their crowns at Jesus throne, showing they accept no authority of their own. They establish the authority of God in others lives, not their own authority over them. True men of God connect us to Christ Jesus our head, securing and enlarging that connection. They do not usurp His Headship by establishing their own authority! But, do continue...
Quote from: Witness on March 01, 2009, 12:09:29 AM
here are a couple more verses-
1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in Word and doctrine.
2 Corinthians 10:8-9 For even if I also should boast somewhat more fully of our authority (which the Lord has given us for building up, and not for pulling you down) I will not be put to shame; (9) so that I might not seem to terrify you by letters.
How good if you continued through what Paul called his inappropriate boasting to arrive at this central imperative that cannot be compromised! "Betroth[ed]...to one Man!" There are no other mediators! There is no
"chaste virgin" presented
"to Christ" if any other man is your mediator!
2 Corinthians 11:2-4 (CLV)...
2 for I am jealous over you with a jealousy of God.
For I betroth you to one Man, to present a chaste virgin to Christ.3 Yet I fear lest somehow, as the serpent deludes Eve by its craftiness, your apprehensions should be
corrupted from the singleness and pureness which is in Christ.4 For if, indeed, he who is coming is heralding another Jesus whom we do not herald, or you are obtaining a different spirit, which you did not obtain, or a different evangel, which you do not receive, you are bearing with him ideally.
What part of "singleness" don't you understand?Quote from: Witness on March 01, 2009, 12:09:29 AM
building up is only for those who are Christ's! those are the ones God corrects!
Hebrews 12:8 But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons.
What determines who are bastards is in the mothers. It is the same Father; but, is the mother Hagar or Sarah? The mother which is called "the Jerusalem which now is..." which is the earthly tabernacles of the saints scattered thoughout the world that comprise the capital city, the official seat of government of God's Israel "...she is in slavery with her children." (loc.cit., Ga 4:25, CLV) Until death is swallowed up in victory it works in our members and, "...sin reigns in death." (Rm 5:21) "...the holy city, new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband" (Rv 21:2, CLV) is who we are already in spirit. "Yet the Jerusalem above is free, who is mother of us all. For it is written, "Be glad, barren one, who art not bringing forth! Burst forth and implore, thou who art not travailing! For many are the children of the desolate, Rather than of her who has the husband." (Ga 4:26-27, CLV) Again, a virgin, not having other authorities; but,
free!"...we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living." (Hb 12:9) Other than fathers of our flesh it is "to the Father of spirits" to whom alone were are subjected in order to, "...be living." God is JEALOUS and His glory He will not give to another! Don't you understand the many martyrs who were slain because they would not offer the little pinch of incense to another authority identifying with the Divine. If they could refuse, can you? You cannot have the true God through other mediators.
Galatians 4:21-5:1 (CLV)...
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one out of the maid and one out of the free womam.
23 But the one, indeed, out of the maid is begotten according to flesh, yet the one out of the free woman through the promise:
24 which is allegorizing, for these women are two covenants; one, indeed, from mount Sinai, generating into slavery, which is Hagar.
25 Yet Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia; it is in line with the Jerusalem which now is, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 Yet the Jerusalem above is free, who is mother of us all.
27 For it is written, "Be glad, barren one, who art not bringing forth! Burst forth and implore, thou who art not travailing! For many are the children of the desolate, Rather than of her who has the husband."
28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now.
30 But what is the scripture saying? Cast out this maid and her son, for by no means shall the son of the maid be enjoying the allotment with the son of the free woman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman.
1 For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery.
Quote from: Witness on March 01, 2009, 12:09:29 AM
reformer, you said that the scripture I quoted at top here (2 Cor. 6:17-18) is talking about Babylon. yes, it is. it is babylon that the Lord caused me to forsake. it is babylon that I see all of you partaking of – confusion. that is why you theorize and explain away the basic truths of Scripture without knowing God!
2 Timothy 3:7 ever learning and never able to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
Babylon is where the authority called "the head of gold" tops the false image. God's priestly nation, by having dead images to which they submitted, "fornicating" with them while being the chosen spouse of God, were exiled to be under that other authority. There are many who are submitted to what are no Gods and yet claim they are God's bride. Religious systems with their heirarchies of authority are not God. Intimacies with those authorities pays the whorish. "Come our of her!"
Quote from: Witness on March 01, 2009, 12:09:29 AM
firstborn, you say God is your God without them. if your god is not their God, your god is not the true God. Amen!
(I'm going to give a lovely little response to this.)
"I am aware where you are dwelling-where the throne of Satan is-and you are holding My name, and do not disown My faith in the days in which Antipas, My faithful witness, was killed among you, where Satan is dwelling." (Rv 2:13, CLV) "Antipas" means "against all." Jesus calls him, "My faithful witness." Love, "is forgoing all, " or, more literally is "excluding" all. It is a term based on the small shield on the arm used in close combat. You just won't allow
anything between you and your beloved Jesus!!!
your brother, James Rohde
Quote from: Witness on March 02, 2009, 07:17:08 AM
definition of opinion: "a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty."
:cloud9: Definition of irrational: refusing to the let the facts interfere with that opinion.
Quote from: reFORMer on March 02, 2009, 08:19:07 AM
It is surprising how many cannot even accept and even revile the direct unmediated authority of God Himself to His people; yet, they go to great lengths to defend the authority of men who stand in God's place! They call me rebellious, they say I have a spirit of deception, that I'm an anarchist for this reason. Do you realize (in my experience,) the common people hear me gladly? it is the religious professionals who're robbed of sight and that do the reviling?
:cloud9: That's certainly been my experience, also......awesome word James. Blessings...
Quote from: ReformerIt is simply that to directly connect us to God Jesus suffered and died, and is raised to permanent life as the Kurios "the ultimate authority" and as our only mediator. Once brought into intimacy with THE LORD all other relationships are beneath us!
This is so true! We have been reconciled by Christ's death so that we may experience true intimacy.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.As in all intimate relationships, three's a crowd. I certainly can and do learn from my brethren, but God is my final authority. And, quite frankly, men come and go, but He will never leave me or forsake me.
Quote from: Witness on March 02, 2009, 07:17:08 AM
paul H. you have some sarcasm in your post. Is that walking in the Spirit?
You over looked my point. I may not be walking in the spirit, but if you, paul and victor is what walking in the spirit is, I want no part of it and gladly accept the fate they deem is coming my way because it's better than becoming like that.
QuoteOK Sarah, I tried to gently reason with you. At this point I will choose to turn the other cheek. Your unrighteous judgment of me is between you and God.
Did you mean Witness?
I'm still confused as to what Witness' objective for us is. Follow Victor and Paul?
Quote from: Witness on March 02, 2009, 07:17:08 AM
why do you say they are not interested? because they are not on this forum answering you? don't you know they were kicked off?
besides they demonstrated their interest in your life by answering you with substance on their site. if you want to talk to them, why don't you write them rather than complain about them behind their backs on a blog they can no longer access?
It's not behind their back, they either can still read these messages or you send them to them. In any case I have posted with that knowledge. If you are no longer doing that, then I will cease any posting in this thread. Let me know. My e-mail is in my profile. If they care, you can send it to them and they can send me a message. I have no need to contact them privately.
This thread is going on 9 pages now and I have a question Witness.
What do you think a solution to becoming friends here is? Is finding that not a spiritual direction rather than one of the flesh? Please be specific.
Quotei'm not judging and condeming my brethren- you are not my brother in Christ. you come at me subtly as an enemy, and expect that I would esteem you as a brother?
but you know who the accuser of the brethren of christ is!
Genesis 3:1 HNV Now the serpent was more subtle than any animal of the field which the LORD God had made. ...
Revelation 12:9-10 MKJV And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (10) And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
Hello Witness, :icon_flower:
The word satan means" adversary", one could say , that which is , or those who are , adverse to Christ, The Way, the Truth and The life.
Therefore, would it sound strange to you that He who accuseth is Moses,( Ministry of DEATH) for those who fail to believe..., seems Christ is talking to those of the Law once again, could it be those who accuse are acussed themselves?
those who seek Honour among themselves ,oppossed to the TRUE\Pearl of Great price ,who is worthy of Honour who come from HIS FATHER
Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Jhn 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
Jhn 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Jhn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Jhn 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?
Jhn 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
The Only enemy we have is ourselves , as all men are enemies to the Cross, as we once were ourselves, when we stood as MEN.,
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Even so..as for enemies we love them and surely dont curse them ,for that curse of death has been lifted.
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Therefore,I find it Strange you ACCUSE James as one who is Not a Brother,
do Brothers accuse brothers ?sisters Acusse sisters come their faith?
for by FAITH ye STAND.
those who are worthy of TWOFOLD Honour ,their service is By word and Doctrine of the ONE it speaks of.) their Labour is a WORK of FAITH AND LOVE..
TOWARD HIS NAME1
Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your
work of faith, and labour of love, and
patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
Hbr 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your
work and labour of love, which ye have shewed***
toward his name,**** in that ye have
ministered to the saints, and do minister. Do Not Muzzle the OX( stop him from eating\speaking ), when treading in the EARTH( HEARTS OF MEN)the CORN (bread ) THE TEACHINGS \DOCTRINES of HE who Gave HIS LIFE for ALL.
As ReFormer mentioned...The Labour of faith and Love was\is to ETABILISH ONE NESS, through a Marriage undefiled,God is a Jealous God, itS spiritual adultery to BE bound\TOUCH that of AnOther WOMAN., THAT OTHER woman being OLD Jerulasem
Eze 16:38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.
HIS jealousy is provoked to wrath.the Law bringeth WraTH?
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy [and] in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
The same chaste vigirns who defiled themselves not are also mentioned :icon_flower:
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
NO GUILE found in their mouth, and without FAULT
SEEMS A PERFECT MAN can be found with no such guile
Jam 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to
bridle the whole body. speaks for mine of the those WHO spoke not just word, But deed also.....the Labour of Love\faith in which we walk.
lest paul also speak and keep his body he to be cast aside, HE Became **ALL THINGS**( SPEAKS VERY MUCH OF CHRIST TO ME) to all people...speaking to a Jew as JEW, and to the Brethren as one of the brethren
1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Sarah on March 02, 2009, 03:25:08 PM
QuoteOK Sarah, I tried to gently reason with you. At this point I will choose to turn the other cheek. Your unrighteous judgment of me is between you and God.
Did you mean Witness?
I'm still confused as to what Witness' objective for us is. Follow Victor and Paul?
yes sarah, I believe James meant SARA ( Schmidt), Its my educated guess this is who Witness is, having read her Testimony...but there again one could be wrong :icon_flower:
So if this is you Sara?..Then Howdy :icon_flower:
Yes, I mean "Sara"...the monicker "witness" doesn't set so well right now, based on the type of fruit that's beginning to bear...
Good news or evangelium (also translated as "gospel", "glad tidings" and variants) is the message of Jesus, the Christ (the Messiah); the saving acts of God, specifically his atoning death on the cross and resurrection from the dead, the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost as "helper" (paraclete), and the resulting promise and hope of salvation. Its context is the storyline of the Christian Bible as a whole, how people from all nations are restored to relationship with God through the person of Jesus.
Let your joy be full, rejoice in the Lord always, and again I say rejoice.
:icon_flower:
Thanks, flower child :Sparkletooth:.
Romans 12:3-5 says For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
QuoteYes, I mean "Sara"...the monicker "witness" doesn't set so well right now, based on the type of fruit that's beginning to bear...
Gotcha! I didn't catcha that 'witness' and I have the same name, except for the h. I didn't even realize witness was a girl. :mblush:
I think it is ironic that some here were dubbed as being the 'accuser of the brethern'. I'm also still wondering what Witness's goal is here; to tell us to repent from something, to expose a false teaching and if so repent of what and what false teaching?
It's good, Sarah. We're told not to judge, and that the very judgment we give we will be receiving. If you notice closely, any time you may judge, or I, or anyone else, we are often in that very moment blinded to the fact that we're doing the exact same thing we're accusing others of doing.
God's blessing.
Quote from: Witness on March 02, 2009, 07:17:08 AM
I can safely say, peacemaker, that you don't know the Lord, and therefore you do the opposite of what your name describes. you need to stop being religious and comforting yourself with your false prayer. what else could a prayer be that is coming from another subtle accuser of the brethren?
A Psalm within the heart? But I guess only your mentors can make up their own Proverbs?
also, Jesus said-
Matthew 6:5-7 MKJV And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward. (6) But you, when you pray, enter into your room. And shutting your door (from outside influences) pray to your Father in secret; and your Father who sees (within) in secret shall reward you openly. (7) But when you pray, do not babble vain words (you call His Words vain?), as the nations. For they think that in their much speaking they shall be heard.
... through the steps of walking with the Lord through His servants, Victor and Paul, I have experienced victory over sins- masturbation in particular ... from Victors testimony, it appears he was of some help, as he also had difficulty in dealing with this sin, until the LORD delivered him, which in no uncertain terms is what he said.
"We are not predestinated to sin, again, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."
Excerpts from the path of truth.com/falsehoodexposed/truemarkscult (with commentary)
False religion is man-made. True religion (relationship) is God-made. One is a cult, and the other is true reverence of God. One dresses and glorifies the old nature. The other is a change of nature (heart) for the better. One is the righteousness of man. The other is the RIGHTEOUS OF GOD!
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit orphans and widows in their afflictions, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world" (James 1:27).
"He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does Jehovah require of you but to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:8)
"One man's garbage is another man's treasure." How true!
I love mercy, his justice, and humbly walking in the Spirit of the day with the LORD, as we visit the orphans, the fatherless, and widows in their affliction – without spot or blemish.
Victor defines a cult, and describes the true characteristics of one:It is a fact that the definition of a cult depends on the one defining. It is also true that almost all definitions are prejudiced, partisan, bigoted, contradictory, ignorant, erroneous, justifiably debatable, and therefore potentially harmful to the innocent. Indeed! Thirdly, it is true that those who take it upon themselves to define a cult, as they see it from their own religious perspective, are guilty of slander, defamation of character, potential harm to saints of God, and blasphemy against God. Then, Repent! Until now, I have yet to see a definition that does not have these characteristics just mentioned. A contradiction in terms, depending on the one defining.
I hereby present a practical and truthful definition, and name the primary true marks of a cult as it commonly exists, not according to opinion, tradition, religious bias, philosophy or any other thing, but according to Jesus Christ/Yahshuah HaMashiach and Holy Scripture.
Therefore, let us agree that a cult is:
"An identifiable group, which, while professing Christianity or faith in Jesus Christ, is contrary, intentionally or otherwise, to true Christianity." Agreed!
Therefore, it is my pleasure and blessedness of God, by His grace and revelation, to present simple and unmistakable, yet commonly unrecognized Scriptural marks of a cult as we have defined it. Remember, it is true that almost all definitions are prejudiced, partisan, bigoted, contradictory, ignorant, erroneous, justifiably debatable,
and therefore potentially harmful to the innocent.Here are some true marks of a "cult" that
the reader will not be able to identify with Jesus Christ, the apostle Paul and true Christian disciples and believers anywhere at any time... But keep in mind the following:
Beware of false prophets (surely not only those who spoke in times past?) who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. You shall know them by their fruits (as it falls not far from the tree, and a witness, she is).
Many are those miscreants that have given themselves over to the lusts of the flesh, adultery, fornication, sexual orgies, Satan worship (wouldn't dream of worshiping an adversary, or committing any of these other atrocities, but I do sleep in the same bed with my wife – does that count?), carrying arms for warfare and self defense in the Name of God, drugs, racism, homosexuality, entrapment, hoarding supplies, deception, and innumerable other evils (like masturbation?).
It must also be made clear that many cults will have some legitimate characteristics. This is so true.
Let us not be deceived by those who have some legitimate, or apparently legitimate, characteristics (of truth). Their error more than "compensates" for the truths they hold.
Cults have a formal and official name that identifies them with the world, and which presumes to have a handle on the truth ...
Think about it, reader. Let's try a few of these names and consider the implications:
"The Path to truth" which has some legitimate characteristics of truth. And what is this about being the path? (Not that I am of Victor or Paul, or any other for that matter).
Is this not a name of blasphemy? While it displays superiority, or a special quality like, "We are the original," it does so in the Name of Jesus Christ, Who said, "If any among you will be great (or the path), let him be your servant (or last on the path)." Did He say, "If any of you will be great, let him be "the Path to Truth?"
And upon what is their emphasis? Follow us, for only we have been given the truth?
How erroneous and misleading! Sounds a bit like the worldly minded churches.
Let's try another name. Any name will do. They all have the substance of error and falsehood. Let's try "Harvest Haven." What are they saying? Are they "holy"? Have you studied the history of this organization? In any event, by calling themselves by this name, they are in effect saying, "We are THE Church, THE Body of Christ. We are holy." So what if one is not of Harvest Haven, or that of Victor and Paul? Without saying so, they imply that any person outside of their organization is lost, or not in the fold of Christ. To take on a name is to say, "We are special. We stand out in this world as Christ's or God's true servants, or representatives, or children." Is that not what they are saying? Did Jesus do any such thing? Not at all. Nor do any who are truly His.
The apostle Paul had this and much more to say about names:
"For you are yet carnal. For in that there is among you envyings and strife and divisions, are you not carnal, and do you not walk according to men? For while one says, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal?" (1 Corinthians 3:3-4)
This cult I name claim to believe and to teach and preach from the Bible, yet many simple words and plain messages from it have no effect on them, such as the one just quoted. Cults keep right on marching their preferred ways, determined to have a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. Cults are man-made, and not the work of God. If of God, would they walk contrarily to Him? Good question, however, the answer is no!
BTW I have a beard, wear blue jeans and sandals, hope this doesn't offend? Almost positive that it will not. And I would not call what was written by me a prayer, perhaps a Psalm, given the various words and/or thought that came from the Scriptures. Although, it makes for a heart-felt prayer which you may recite while in your spiritual closet (within), and not a literal enclosure on the farm. But that in, and of itself, is alright, as well.
I have digested all the writings of Victor and Paul, and as they say from these excerpts from their true marks of a cult, they have some legitimate truth. However, I have found that:
"The only difference between a rut of fallacy and the grave of truth, is the depth of understanding."You cannot have a discussion
"according to the stick" (but it is tempting, although, this would upset Tony to think, again, that I was a war-maker). Thus, study for yourself!
I know, I know, you believe that you are using His Rod of correction – this I understand. After all, I am not a disembodied spirit, nor without HIS SPIRIT.
I guess they can put a curse on me, but by all means – set a date, and the parameters of such, so the whole world will know – they are false prophets?
"I predict that most of their fallacy will not go away, despite refutations, dated this day!" peacemaker
"Testimonies only tell one side of the story, especially when they include other people."
peacemaker
:cloud9: I personally like the Lord's definition of a cult, which I received when I first got saved, after asking Him to PLEASE help me, I don't know who out there to believe about anything. He said, "A cult always emphasizes it's error." Selah. Blessings....
Quote from: jabcat on March 03, 2009, 05:27:26 AM
It's good, Sarah. We're told not to judge, and that the very judgment we give we will be receiving. If you notice closely, any time you may judge, or I, or anyone else, we are often in that very moment blinded to the fact that we're doing the exact same thing we're accusing others of doing.
God's blessing.
Amen jabcat!!! I think I am guilty of this very thing. I added to my last post that was originally suppose to be shorter and after going back and re-reading it, I thought I sounded judgmental. I am sorry Witness if you thought I was judging you, it certainly wasn't my intention. jabcat, I apologize to you. :Peace:
Witness:
You mentioned all of the positions that were in the original Ekklesias in Paul's day. In Paul's day, all of these positions were necessary but today they are not. The reason I say this is, the Gospel had just began to be preached and Jesus had told them that this Gospel must be preached to the world. This was accomplished. Today, all we need is the Holy Spirit and God, nothing or no one else is necessary. Sure we can learn from others but we should NEVER put any one before God.
CHB
You've got nothing to be apologize to me for...I saw you trying to not be judgmental...I think it can be a difficult thing to try to reason and contend for the faith, yet not be judgmental, or at least even sound that way...
Quote from: Sarah on March 03, 2009, 05:21:43 AM
I think it is ironic that some here were dubbed as being the 'accuser of the brethern'. I'm also still wondering what Witness's goal is here;
This may give you some insight, Sara
hThese are quotes attributed to the group leaders...
"It is not a matter of theory, philosophy, "theology," or
opinion [look familiar?] to us....
We speak to you from His throne."
Here are quotes from scripture; "call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved", and "there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus".
Does the Holy Spirit constantly slam believers over the head with condemnation and statements of unacceptance, or gently and lovingly help, guide, and grow us?
more replies have now been posted on Paul and Victor's site. there is a reply to Nathan showing that his complaint about Paul is based in false christianity. they also wrote a reply to pneuma's posts (Scott). you can see it by going to What's New? www.thepathoftruth.com
Quote from: Witness on March 07, 2009, 07:01:02 AM
more replies have now been posted on Paul and Victor's site. there is a reply to Nathan showing that his complaint about Paul is based in false christianity. they also wrote a reply to pneuma's posts (Scott). you can see it by going to What's New? www.thepathoftruth.com
What's new Sarah is that I love you and all with a perfect love. Whatever the consequences are for that - I'll take them - gladly - thankfully. :thumbsup:
Ditto Byron :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
But sadly Witness this is hardly new at all,
do these comments sound familier- just a few excerpts :sigh:
As I have already said, you, Mike, you are not a genuine Christian either - just another tare, a child of the Devil. How do I know? We have told you: "He who is of God hears God 's Words. Therefore you do not hear them because you are not of God " (John 8:47 MKJV) "We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error "(1 John 4:6 MKJV). What does God have to say? That is why we are here, that He may finally have His say.
you are carnal, stupid, and full of all contradiction, teaching lies. It is true for you that these things are not of concern because you are not a son of Abraham by faith. You are a bastard. Bastards do whatever they like. So there is nothing here for you to worry about or consider. Shall we expect a devil to become a saint by trying to follow the fathers? Can a pig learn to bleat?
Mike replies; Short of being called a big doodie head, you have thrown every insult in the book at me. Normally people have to spend a little time before coming to dislike me, but you have judged me and condemned me without knowing anything at all about me. If that is your idea of proclaiming the Gospel, we will all be better served by you staying in Canada where your defamation and injury to the witness of genuine Christians is minimized....I rejected your last comment, and will reject any future comments. They have become successively more virulent and show no signs of becoming constructive. The last one was especially ugly and I decided to reject it instead of trying to interact with your hysterical rants. I should have followed Josh's lead and cut you off some time ago. You already have a webpage to spew your malicious attacks. I won't provide a further forum for you. Anyone who reads this exchange can decide for themselves the validity of your position. I shouldn't have baited you into this exchange because it is clear that you are markedly disturbed. I sincerely pray that God will break through your stony hearts, and that if it is His will that He free you from your bondage, you and your followers.
Quoting Sara Schmidt on culverites blogspot; Show me whom you follow, and I will know what manner of person you are or will become. If you do not know whom you are following, don't you think it is time to find out how and where you are being led? Do you think you will altogether escape the consequences because ignorant? Think again. You already suffer them.
Ingrid; Talking to an ill Christian woman...after first quoting scripture at her about being an "adulterous woman", then says this; Why do you think you are ill, Lisa? And he said, If you will carefully listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am Jehovah who heals you" (Exodus 15:26 MKJV). People, if you wish to perish in your illnesses, that is your prerogative. As if you know what all diseases the Lord laid on the Egyptians. And why should that matter anyway? The Lord promises that no good thing would He withhold from those who walk uprightly. Obviously with MS [multiple sclerosis] we can hardly say you walk uprightly.
Taffy, sorry No flower today, theres no sunshine
Quote from: Taffy on March 07, 2009, 12:46:28 PM
Ditto Byron :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Ingrid; Talking to an ill Christian woman...after first quoting scripture at her about being an "adulterous woman", then says this; Why do you think you are ill, Lisa? And he said, If you will carefully listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am Jehovah who heals you" (Exodus 15:26 MKJV). People, if you wish to perish in your illnesses, that is your prerogative. As if you know what all diseases the Lord laid on the Egyptians. And why should that matter anyway? The Lord promises that no good thing would He withhold from those who walk uprightly. Obviously with MS [multiple sclerosis] we can hardly say you walk uprightly.
Taffy, sorry No flower today, theres no sunshine
:cloud9: The rest is obnoxious enough, but I find this particularly heinous. Guess they left that part out in the book where it says the blind man was born that way to show the glory of God.
And to further dispute this, in my own walk, when I was in my ninth month of pregnancy with my daughter, I fell ill with double pneumonia and landed, against my will, in the hospital. The very first day I was asking God, why am I here, why did you allow this to come on me? It wasn't long that day before I had my answer. A young woman from another town came in who was in extreme (screaming during spasms) pain with a back injury, and was put in the bed beside me.
I witnessed to her about the Lord having healed my back, found out she was brought up Catholic and was not born again. That night I had a dream, of a pastor I knew coming in and leading her to the Lord. The Lord told me in the dream it had to be a man to lead her to Him, because of her upbringing. When I awoke I made a phone call, and later in the day, the pastor came and she gave her heart to the Lord. Within a few hours that same day, I was "suddenly" better and my confused doctor sent me home.
I found out 3 years later, when she came running up to me and hugged me (it seems we had a mutual friend and didn't know it) that her back was healed after she received Christ and she went home the next day.
Judging after the appearance realm is unrighteous judgment, no matter what it involves. We have no way of knowing what the Lord has planned, and sometimes it involves a little "inconvenience" for us. I feel sorry for the person who told the above woman this, because when she is stricken herself (and she will be when she reaps), she's going to have to eat those words. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on March 07, 2009, 01:51:59 PM
Quote from: Taffy on March 07, 2009, 12:46:28 PM
Ditto Byron :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Ingrid; Talking to an ill Christian woman...after first quoting scripture at her about being an "adulterous woman", then says this; Why do you think you are ill, Lisa? And he said, If you will carefully listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am Jehovah who heals you" (Exodus 15:26 MKJV). People, if you wish to perish in your illnesses, that is your prerogative. As if you know what all diseases the Lord laid on the Egyptians. And why should that matter anyway? The Lord promises that no good thing would He withhold from those who walk uprightly. Obviously with MS [multiple sclerosis] we can hardly say you walk uprightly.
Taffy, sorry No flower today, theres no sunshine
:cloud9: The rest is obnoxious enough, but I find this particularly heinous. Guess they left that part out in the book where it says the blind man was born that way to show the glory of God.
And to further dispute this, in my own walk, when I was in my ninth month of pregnancy with my daughter, I fell ill with double pneumonia and landed, against my will, in the hospital. The very first day I was asking God, why am I here, why did you allow this to come on me? It wasn't long that day before I had my answer. A young woman from another town came in who was in extreme (screaming during spasms) pain with a back injury, and was put in the bed beside me.
I witnessed to her about the Lord having healed my back, found out she was brought up Catholic and was not born again. That night I had a dream, of a pastor I knew coming in and leading her to the Lord. The Lord told me in the dream it had to be a man to lead her to Him, because of her upbringing. When I awoke I made a phone call, and later in the day, the pastor came and she gave her heart to the Lord. Within a few hours that same day, I was "suddenly" better and my confused doctor sent me home.
I found out 3 years later, when she came running up to me and hugged me (it seems we had a mutual friend and didn't know it) that her back was healed after she received Christ and she went home the next day.
Judging after the appearance realm is unrighteous judgment, no matter what it involves. We have no way of knowing what the Lord has planned, and sometimes it involves a little "inconvenience" for us. I feel sorry for the person who told the above woman this, because when she is stricken herself (and she will be when she reaps), she's going to have to eat those words. Blessings....
Beautiful testamony Cardinal. Thanks for sharing that. It made my day! Praise God! :bigGrin: :cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Witness on March 07, 2009, 07:01:02 AM
more replies have now been posted on Paul and Victor's site. there is a reply to Nathan showing that his complaint about Paul is based in false christianity. they also wrote a reply to pneuma's posts (Scott). you can see it by going to What's New? www.thepathoftruth.com
Hi Witness, if you are interested in my reply to Paul C just follow the link below.
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/
I have known of pastors with this spirit. One reaped the whirlwind in his life and ended up loosing his family, his house, and everything. The other was killed in a car crash leaving behind a young wife and 2 young boys. It was very sad. You CAN NOT go around offending God's children and putting yokes on their necks without consequence. It is an evil spirit that is producing this scripturous venum...remember satan's words to Jesus. I fear for this group, as you reap what you sow. It is a fearful thing to believe the voice in your head is the voice God when its fruit is destruction and bondage. If what you spoke were true, those here would be angry and offended because many times truth illicits that response. But your comments are like water off a ducks back because they are lies.
Sarah B.
Now, even though I've requested for them to stop . . .they won't stop emailing me their venom. I came in this morning and found two more. And I didn't respond to them yesterday, but yet they elected to try to swing at me again without provocation . . .what's with these guys???
:cloud9: What is even more disturbing to me, is it sounds like they're cursing those that they talk to, literally. :mshock: It's vile. Blessings....
Here's the whole conversation . . .I'll try to keep it somewhat organized . . .My add in comments to tent are in purple . . .
NATHAN SAYS
I read about 10 lines of your response . . . then had to quit because this light you are convinced you have is reproducing nothing but death in others . . .
Have a great day.
THEIR RESPONSE
We know whereof we speak, Nathan, and we answer you as does He:
"Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I should say I do not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I know Him and I keep His Word" (John 8:54-55 MKJV).
Death is exactly what you need, by the cross, which is anathema to you and those who agree with you.
Victor
NATHAN'S RESPONSE
If you knew of what you speak, then your intent would not to be to induce death, but to illuminate life . . . it is not your responsibility to bring death to anyone. As I said in my original message to you . .Jesus didn't condemn . . .what makes you think you can? I work out my own salvation . . . it's a "personal" experience . . .my salvation is not based on your standards . . . yet you still assume you have the right to enforce them. You want to really convince me? Then illuminate light . . .pointing out the darkness in others only reinforces what the enemy desires . . .
THEIR RESPONSE
Nathan, how confused you are while presuming to have understanding! By the Nature of God, Light cannot help but be a reproof of darkness:
"But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the Light, for whatever makes manifest is Light" (Ephesians 5:13 MKJV).
You know nothing of our intent or what we do. How can you, when you are manifestly in darkness? You cannot be in the Light when you are found denying God's intrinsic and unalterable Nature. So is the Scripture fulfilled:
"And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not apprehend it" (John 1:5 EMTV).
This is where it's a little confusing because on the one, it was signed off as Victor . .don't know who that is . . .but the emails were coming from Paul . . .then . . .at the same time I'm getting those . . .I'm getting this from Victor's email himself . .carbon copied to Paul . . .it's like a tag team thing going on . . .
THEY SAID
The answers to these comments and questions are all in the letter I sent you, with our position proven of God, which letter you have ignorantly and arrogantly dismissed. So why bother repeating your comments and questions as though they were not answered? If you think dialogue should go only one way, from you, and you won't listen, then go your way and destroy yourself, Nathan.
I didn't respond . . I just deleted after a while . .but then their stuff kept coming . . .
Nathan, how confused you are while presuming to have understanding! By the Nature of God, Light cannot help but be a reproof of darkness:
"But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the Light, for whatever makes manifest is Light" (Ephesians 5:13 MKJV).
You know nothing of our intent or what we do. How can you, when you are manifestly in darkness? You cannot be in the Light when you are found denying God's intrinsic and unalterable Nature. So is the Scripture fulfilled:
"And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not apprehend it" (John 1:5 EMTV).
Again, I didn't respond . . .and again . .this is the latest one they sent . . .
He writhes and snarls, gnashing his teeth as he lays in his dark gutter, cursing the one who tries to lift him up out of his vomit and squalor.
Wretched fellow, presuming to lead others, as though he is better off than they. What arrogance! What ignorance! What presumption! What delusion!
And while he presumes to be fit to lead, he refuses to be led, thinking himself above the need for it.
Nathan, you know nothing at all of the Light of all men, and you refuse to know.
I will say this . . . the mods may or may not always get it right when they kick someone off . . .but in this case . . .their discernment was so dead on.
Actually, I left out my last response to them. They were freaking out over this light/darkness thing . . .so this was the last of it . . .I'm sure I'll still be hearing from them . . .man's judgment has no end.
NATHAN'S LAST RESPONSE
See . .that's why you get the responses you get . . .all you're doing is judging others . .. you judge me and doom me to hell . . .Just because I disagree with how you approach things has nothing to do with me manifestly being in darkness . . .You're still flesh yourself . ..you're not going to always be right either, so I maintain my ability to disagree with you.
I never said the light can not reproof darkness . . .but I believe that the purpose of the light in me is to cast out the darkness in me . ..not in others . . .otherwise it's not a personal relationship.
Either way, it's clear that we're not going to agree . .so save your emails for someone who will read them . . .because after this last response to you, I'm just going to delete them from here on out.
QuoteHe writhes and snarls, gnashing his teeth as he lays in his dark gutter, cursing the one who tries to lift him up out of his vomit and squalor.
Wretched fellow, presuming to lead others, as though he is better off than they. What arrogance! What ignorance! What presumption! What delusion!
And while he presumes to be fit to lead, he refuses to be led, thinking himself above the need for it.
I felt a hardness in the pit of my stomach when I read this. I believe this wasn't for you Nathan, but rather directed toward the one's mind it came out of.
I'm not able to find that passage . . .is it a scripture at all?
Hi All,
Haven't been able to get back on the forum in two days because of, "this page cannot be displayed" problem that I can't figure out.
Anyway, I went on Paul C website and read the responses Paul gave to Nathan and Pneuma.
These men will never admit they are wrong on any thing. According to them they are always right because they think God has chosen them to know ALL truth and no one else has this knowledge and authority. I wonder if they think they are the two witnesses? There is something lacking in everyone that doesn't see things as they do. This is really scary. It sounds as if they would probably have no problem killing you thinking they do God justice. In their eyes they are the only ones justified in all things because God has chosen them. It is this type of thinking that killed Jesus and all of the disciples.
I feel sorry for these men and pray that God will send his spirit of grace and love into their hearts. It really burdens me to know there are people out there who prey on others and hold them in bondage. In a way this sounds worse than the attitudes of ET believers.
This is just what I see from reading their material and letters.
CHB
Witness,
In case you overlooked my post asking you questions, I will ask them again.
Wouldn't attempting to work towards friendship be a more spiritual move? Your question to me about being in the spirit was a reasonable one, so this is my responce to it.
What ideas do you have for such a thing?
I went to their site when it was first shared out here . .but I don't want to go back . . .especially now that I know they are taking aim at me personally . . . I've loved debating in the past . . . but that's a part of me that I don't feel is a part of God anymore . . .so I "try" not to get to involved in those types of discussions anymore . .it's one thing to clarify . . . but as far as debates go . .there is no actual end to them . . .only commercial breaks. It's not very effective to use the Word of God as a defense for my doctrines while at the same time, using the Word of God to free the captive, heal the blind, deaf and lame . . .I choose to use the Worf primarily for the latter reasons only.
It does baffle me that they can be so harsh and claiming to be messengers of love.
Quote from: Nathan on March 07, 2009, 06:33:30 PM
It does baffle me that they can be so harsh and claiming to be messengers of love.
Well, that parts not baffling, Jesus had very harsh words to the pharasees. It appears that Paul and Victor come to the conclusion that we are pharasees. So. giving the benefit of the doubt, it is reasonable.
Can we critisize Jesus for talking that way?
:cloud9: No, and if it was Jesus speaking thru them, we wouldn't be criticizing them, either. Blessings....
We can all decide someone is a pharasee. What is the criteria?
Quote from: peacemaker on March 03, 2009, 08:47:29 AM
"I predict that most of their fallacy will not go away, despite refutations, dated this day!"
"The only difference between a rut of fallacy and the grave of truth, is the shallow soil of their understanding."
peacemaker
As I see the Jesus/Pharisee issue, as well as other such POV's...again, I personally go to context, purpose, primary audiance...so my response is "that was Jesus", and "they were the Pharisees"...we're neither. I see it as what's expected of us, not what was "expected" of Jesus. If we take the whole of the gospel, and not just a verse or two where Jesus rebuked the religious, IMO, we are to have a non-judging, loving attitude, even contending in love..."preferring one another". (I think I know you a little bit, Paul H...you're trying to make us think, aren't you, you wascal? :bigGrin:) And I agree wrt the criteria...every little group could judge and find fault with the other...IMO, that's why we're NOT to judge each other harshly, and to let the wheats and tares grow together...while being on guard and seeking the truth ourselves...our own salvation with fear and trembling :thumbsup:.
Nathan, that's what's I've seen out on the web...people feel harrassed by these folks. And I agree very much with the debate thing...at some point we're wasting time and energy that can be spent on things more fruitful.
Who me? :search:
i am replying in order from when I had my last big post here (#169).
james (jabcat), you said:
However, as a moderator, I clearly inform you that directly presuming to pass judgment on someone's salvation is considered a personal attack and is not allowed on the forum.
if that's the definition of a personal attack, haven't you and others here been personally attacking me and paul and victor, since you have been accusing us as a cult?
james (reformer), you ask if I read your posts. I had. the first time I used the word "post," I was referring to the one wherein you talked about how much time and effort you put into your posts. the second time I used the word "post," I probably should have put that in the plural sense.
i agree that the authority of men of God is God Himself. I never said or implied otherwise. and you can't conclude from my posts that i am under the headship of usurpers, because I gave to "jabcat" (and all here) a clear testimony of what the Lord did for me, through the ministry of Victor and Paul. no man can cast out devils without the power of the Lord. and if, through listening and believing and following them as men of God, I was not only delivered from demons but also granted repentance and deliverance from my sins, why do you argue with that? and I received the Holy Spirit with confirmation of His new life!
Mark 3:22-26 MKJV And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, He has Beelzebub, and He casts out demons by the ruler of the demons. (23) And He called them and said to them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? (24) And if a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. (25) And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. (26) And if Satan rises up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end.
you ask me what part of "singleness" don't I understand and quote to me 2 Corinthians 11:2-4. this is exactly what I have received!!! Paul (apostle) said, "I betroth you...." he had that direct leadership position in which to lead others to Christ! It has been the same for me. And therefore I hear from God, directly, personally, and through others! How else did I receive the holy Spirit and the deliverance that I have already described? It was through God Who has been making me pure, bringing me to Himself!
james (reformer), you go on to say:
What determines who are bastards is in the mothers. It is the same Father; but, is the mother Hagar or Sarah?
this is not according to the Scriptures.
John 8:42-45 BBE Jesus said to them, If God was your Father you would have love for me, because it was from God I came and am here. I did not come of myself, but he sent me. (43) Why are my words not clear to you? It is because your ears are shut to my teaching. (44) You are the children of your father the Evil One and it is your pleasure to do his desires. From the first he was a taker of life; and he did not go in the true way because there is no true thing in him. When he says what is false, it is natural to him, for he is false and the father of what is false. (45) But because I say what is true, you have no belief in me.
you say a virgin doesn't have other authorities, that she is free. how can you say that, when fathers are authorities over daughters (as you yourself acknowledge - and Paul's Scripture, which you quoted, does not deny, but even reinforces this) and men of God are authorities over the Church in general (you deny this last point - it stands nonetheless, for the Scriptures are true and cannot be denied).
one thing that I see as a common occurence here is that I quote Scriptures that directly contradict the position that there are no men of God over others, and many of you quote other Scriptures that you think override the ones that I quote. But the Scriptures I quote don't deny the scriptures you quote! the Lord has made real to me the Whole Counsel of God in the Scriptures! I don't find some to be applicable and some to be defunct... all of them apply!
reformer - james, you said:
"Antipas" means "against all." Jesus calls him, "My faithful witness."
according to Strong's, "Antipas" means "in place of a father." isn't that Christ's faithful witness, and isn't that what Paul said he was?
1 Corinthians 4:14-16 KJV I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. (15) For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (16) Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
as for "against all," all people are against us, as Jesus said they would be.
Matthew 10:22 MKJV And you will be hated of all men for My name's sake, but the one who endures to the end shall be kept safe.
i find your reply to be irrational, Cardinal, according to your own definition.
Paul h. you ask me if I am sharing these posts with paul Cohen. yes, I am.
you also ask:
What do you think a solution to becoming friends here is? Is finding that not a spiritual direction rather than one of the flesh? Please be specific.
my purpose is not to become friends. my purpose has been to ask about Paul being kicked off your forum, and to present some points and questions that I found to be very applicable. (if there is anyone interested in the truth, we would naturally be friends.) since then, my point has been to answer those who are talking to me, bringing up various scriptures and comments that need to be answered.
Sarah, you could have red my introduction post wherein I described myself as a young woman. no big deal.
you wrote:
I think it is ironic that some here were dubbed as being the 'accuser of the brethern'. I'm also still wondering what Witness's goal is here; to tell us to repent from something, to expose a false teaching and if so repent of what and what false teaching?
i described my purpose above to paul Hazelwood.
CHB, you wrote:
Witness:
You mentioned all of the positions that were in the original Ekklesias in Paul's day. In Paul's day, all of these positions were necessary but today they are not. The reason I say this is, the Gospel had just began to be preached and Jesus had told them that this Gospel must be preached to the world. This was accomplished. Today, all we need is the Holy Spirit and God, nothing or no one else is necessary. Sure we can learn from others but we should NEVER put any one before God.
CHB
what you say is entirely unscriptural. where did anyone say those Scriptures are gone now? you take away from yourself by taking away from the Word of God.
Revelation 22:18-19 GNB I, John, solemnly warn everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: if any add anything to them, God will add to their punishment the plagues described in this book. (19) And if any take anything away from the prophetic words of this book, God will take away from them their share of the fruit of the tree of life and of the Holy City, which are described in this book.
I don't deny the postings you quoted, taffy, from Victor and paul. i do deny the way you use them, however, for without the context, those comments seem unwarranted. if anyone wants applicable links from Paul and Victor's site, I can provide them (ask me). the words you quoted from me were not actually said by me - I was quoting the summary from the john Calvin posting (found if you scroll down on the site under False Teachers... go to John calvin), because I was sharing that link with those who could benefit from hearing about his true ways and spirit. everyone here would do well to heed Ingrid's words.
:cloud9: Witness, why is it you use them casting out devils as proof of their right standing with God? I'm sure you know the scripture, "Didn't we cast out devils in your Name?"
And further; Hebrews: 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, (the sole purpose of which is for prayer or for casting out devils) and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.
All of these things mentioned above are in the inner court realm of priestly activities (read 5 fold here), and what neither you nor your headmasters realize is that there is a time when you leave it behind to be under the Lord DIRECTLY, with no middle men, because you no longer require the works of others to insure your obedience, you are obedient to Him because you only desire to do (works) that which pleases your Father.
There are 3 words in Greek in the NT that are translated into the same English word, but they mean, respectively; babes (outer court), young men (teenagers/inner court), and mature Son(s) (Holy of Holies). I've never seen a teenager yet that didn't rebel against some form of authority, and the "teenagers" you've got lording over you, are no exception. I hope for your sake, you set your eyes on Him like a flint. Blessings....
Quote from: Witness on March 08, 2009, 06:47:16 AM
if there is anyone interested in the truth, we would naturally be friends.
I guess we are friends then.
Quote from: Cardinal on March 08, 2009, 06:07:21 PM
:cloud9: Witness, why is it you use them casting out devils as proof of their right standing with God? I'm sure you know the scripture, "Didn't we cast out devils in your Name?"
And further; Hebrews: 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, (the sole purpose of which is for prayer or for casting out devils) and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.
All of these things mentioned above are in the inner court realm of priestly activities (read 5 fold here), and what neither you nor your headmasters realize is that there is a time when you leave it behind to be under the Lord DIRECTLY, with no middle men, because you no longer require the works of others to insure your obedience, you are obedient to Him because you only desire to do (works) that which pleases your Father.
There are 3 words in Greek in the NT that are translated into the same English word, but they mean, respectively; babes (outer court), young men (teenagers/inner court), and mature Son(s) (Holy of Holies). I've never seen a teenager yet that didn't rebel against some form of authority, and the "teenagers" you've got lording over you, are no exception. I hope for your sake, you set your eyes on Him like a flint. Blessings....
What a great word Card!!! This has been heavy in my spirit for the past couple weeks now . . .I used it in last Sunday's message . . .actually it "was" the message. It's a tough pill to swallow when you try to explain there is a whole other realm out there "beyond" the one of the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ . . . For me, it's where the weapons are transformed into plowshares "in us". I referred briefly to this on another post . .the picture of David not being able to build a house for God . . .but God told him that He (God) would build a house for David. And Moses could not take Israel into the primised land due to striking the rock twice. It's a picture of the fact that the striking is connected to warfare/works and there is a time and place for it . .but there is also another realm of God where you can accomplish the same thing simply by calling it out, rather than laboring and fighting for it.
Just because we were told by God that we're to put on the weapons of warfare when we were younger in our relationship with him, doesn't mean that's the way it is for the rest of our lives. It's just as Paul said about being a child . .when I was a child, I spoke, I acted as a child, but when I became a man . . .I PUT AWAY childish things. There's no condemnation there, it's just a fact of life . . . you get older, you outgrow what got you there.
If people still choose to embrace those things . . .then I let them without any further attempts of clarification or consideration on this matter. It's just not the season for them. We're all in different levels of maturity in our relationship is all. If everyone could see this, then there would be much less criticism of each other, and much more acceptance . .at least I would hope that would be the case. :bgdance:
Quote from: Nathan on March 07, 2009, 05:07:23 PM
Now, even though I've requested for them to stop . . .they won't stop emailing me their venom. I came in this morning and found two more. And I didn't respond to them yesterday, but yet they elected to try to swing at me again without provocation . . .what's with these guys???
Just send them this link:
WARNING: some might find this material disturbing. I know I did at first.
http://www.atruechurch.info/home.html
And make clear to them, according to Darwin Fish (real name) EVERYONE is a false teacher EXCEPT for Darwin Fish, and if you follow ANYONE other than Darwin Fish, you are going straight to Hell!
Go here for the rest of the story:
http://www.atruecult.info/dfishfaq.htm
This is an excellent expose on how this sort of mentality works.
Card and Nate,
Beautiful word.
Brother Brian, I haven't gone to the site, is it another place of condemnation I'd really be better off not going to?
Quote from: jabcat on March 09, 2009, 11:41:02 PM
Card and Nate,
Beautiful word.
Brother Brian, I haven't gone to the site, is it another place of condemnation I'd really be better off not going to?
Actually yes. This stuck in my craw for a while, because I happened upon it right after I had my nervous breakdown. I'd go to the 2nd link, which gives the scoop on this person. But he's the epitome of the false teacher list makers. He says that he doesn't believe he's the only one with a correct interpretation of God's word, be he's the only one he knows of since the time of the Apostles. His right hand man, Al Soto, says on some discussion panel, which can be found on the 2nd link, quite clearly that if you/re not following Darwin Fish's theology you are going to hell. So, I think it would be fun to email these guys, and tell them the bad news i.e. give them a taste of their own medicine.
Oops! Hit the wrong button. Again.
Wow...sometimes I don't use wisdom, but for me, I think it's a good idea to stay away from things such as that (groups that claim to have all the answers, and then condemn everyone else BASED ON THEIR OPINIONS.) Whatever things are pure, honest, of a good report, etc., think on these things. I need healing and help from Jesus' yoke upon me, not men trying to force their own ways :thumbdown:.
Quote from: jabcat on March 10, 2009, 12:57:13 AM
Wow...sometimes I don't use wisdom, but for me, I think it's a good idea to stay away from things such as that (groups that claim to have all the answers, and then condemn everyone else BASED ON THEIR OPINIONS.) Whatever things are pure, honest, of a good report, etc., think on these things. I need healing and help from Jesus' yoke upon me, not men trying to force their own ways :thumbdown:.
I try to avoid this sort of thing myself. I happened upon Fish's site when I looked up some info on Charles Stanley, and got his web page. Boy, did he take me for a ride for a little while.
But, especially after reading the expose, this guy now appears to me to be so over the top, he's like a parody of the original poster. But Fish is dead serious. And he has done
extensive research. So the original poster, and any of his counterparts, better take heed. Because according to one of their own ilk, they are in the same soup they insist everyone on their list is in.
:cloud9: You know what these self proclaimed ones have in common? None of them seem to understand that He said if someone says, lo He is there, don't go. The reason for that is, He has a many-membered body now, so to exclude everyone out but the one, "enlightened one", is easily exposed as error. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on March 10, 2009, 01:19:24 AM
:cloud9: You know what these self proclaimed ones have in common? None of them seem to understand that He said if someone says, lo He is there, don't go. The reason for that is, He has a many-membered body now, so to exclude everyone out but the one, "enlightened one", is easily exposed as error. Blessings....
have a Flower sis..the SUN just shined :icon_flower:
:cloud9: Geez.....I need to read what I write more before I post it......edit corrected my bad, LOL......
Quote from: Cardinal on March 10, 2009, 01:29:10 AM
:cloud9: Geez.....I need to read what I write more before I post it......edit corrected my bad, LOL......
ya been reading to many of my emails C...Its wearing off on ya..No worries..could see you Point... :HeartThrob:
No worries, Edit the quote too :icon_flower:
Quote from: Cardinal on March 10, 2009, 01:29:10 AM
:cloud9: Geez.....I need to read what I write more before I post it......edit corrected my bad, LOL......
Rats! I came in after the correction. I hate it when that happens.
:cloud9: ROFLOL.... :laughing7:
Quote from: Brian on March 09, 2009, 11:37:36 PM
Just send them this link:
WARNING: some might find this material disturbing. I know I did at first.
http://www.atruechurch.info/home.html
Typical case of people with zero friends. Zero influence in real life. Zero self esteem. So they are setting up their own kingdom on the net....
Quote from: Nathan on March 07, 2009, 05:42:19 PM
We know whereof we speak, Nathan, and we answer you as does He:
....
THEIR RESPONSE
Nathan, how confused you are while presuming to have understanding! By the Nature of God, Light cannot help but be a reproof of darkness:
....
You know nothing of our intent or what we do. How can you, when you are manifestly in darkness? You cannot be in the Light when you are found denying God's intrinsic and unalterable Nature. So is the Scripture fulfilled:
Circular reasoning.....
I can just as easily claim they are in the dark and prove that with their own reply.
Just replacing a name is all that is needed.
Quote from: Witness on March 08, 2009, 06:47:16 AM
if that's the definition of a personal attack, haven't you and others here been personally attacking me and paul and victor, since you have been accusing us as a cult?
IMO the three of you are not a cult. A cult has a reasonble amount followers.
Hateful boastful troll would be a better title for Paul.
BWHAHAHA! I just wasted time to examine their false teacher list more closely, and found good 'ol Darwin Fish there. Odds are Paul Cohen et al is on his list too. Then again, everyone on the planet, outside of his small band of disciples, is on Darwin's list by default. :laughing7:
Quote from: Brian on March 10, 2009, 06:29:25 PM
BWHAHAHA! I just wasted time to examine their false teacher list more closely, and found good 'ol Darwin Fish there. Odds are Paul Cohen et al is on his list too. Then again, everyone on the planet, outside of his small band of disciples, is on Darwin's list by default. :laughing7:
Darwin Fish sounds like someone out of a Kurt Vonnegut novel. :laughing7:
I miss Kurt... :sigh:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 10, 2009, 09:16:29 AM
Quote from: Witness on March 08, 2009, 06:47:16 AM
if that's the definition of a personal attack, haven't you and others here been personally attacking me and paul and victor, since you have been accusing us as a cult?
IMO the three of you are not a cult. A cult has a reasonble amount followers.
Hateful boastful troll would be a better title for Paul.
I've dropped in on a few so-in-so exposed / false teacher web sites. And they always seem to be seething with hatred towards those on their lists. Now take Hank Hanegraaff (please)for example; he exposes those he considers to be false teaches on his Bible Answer Man radio show. But he makes it clear he has nothing against the individual himself - he is only against what he/she is teaching. No personal attacks. No threats. Whereas one of them wrote to him, "you and your family will pay".
Quote from: Molly on March 10, 2009, 06:44:48 PM
Darwin Fish sounds like someone out of a Kurt Vonnegut novel. :laughing7:
Ah yes, good 'ol Kilgore Trout
Quote
I miss Kurt... :sigh:
He was something alright.
:cloud9: When you mentioned it, I couldn't believe that was his real name......poor guy probably has angst over years of name jokes that began in early childhood development...... :mshock:
Paul C sent me a new reply to my letter to him, so for those interested heres the link
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/
If some of you are wondering why I bother to reply at all, know that my replies are NOT for Pauls sake but for those who follow Paul and if you read my latest reply in the link above I think you'll understand my reasoning.
God bless
Can anyone, or does anyone care to boil down what Paul Cohen's problem with Tentmaker is?
we R UR He R ET
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 09:30:31 PM
we R UR He R ET
That's what I thought, but Paul Cohen sez:
"Did you know, for example, that the teaching of "eternal hell" is false, not at all taught in Scripture, and was propagated by the Catholic Church to control people, adopted by all her daughters who do the same? Jesus is the Savior of all men, but each in his or her own order."
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falseteachers/aviadcohen.htm
The only thing I've been able to deduce, without going over 500 miles of dialog, is that Gary A. rubbed him the wrong way.
Quote from: Brian on March 11, 2009, 10:13:22 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 09:30:31 PM
we R UR He R ET
That's what I thought, but Paul Cohen sez:
"Did you know, for example, that the teaching of "eternal hell" is false, not at all taught in Scripture, and was propagated by the Catholic Church to control people, adopted by all her daughters who do the same? Jesus is the Savior of all men, but each in his or her own order."
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falseteachers/aviadcohen.htm
The only thing I've been able to deduce, without going over 500 miles of dialog, is that Gary A. rubbed him the wrong way.
If you read the section PaulC has for Gary, the only factor I see thats significant and self explanitory is Gary was busy and didn't have time for Pauls :blah: :blah: :blah:.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 11, 2009, 10:26:47 PM
If you read the section PaulC has for Gary, the only factor I see thats significant and self explanitory is Gary was busy and didn't have time for Pauls :blah: :blah: :blah:.
That makes two of us. Nuf said.
Pneuma, excellent quotes ...
"Words of judgment do not bother me, words of judgment without knowledge do."
"Strife means a courting distinction; a desire to put one's self forward."
"Jesus said, my sheep know my voice and another they will not follow."
... much spoken in few words!
peacemaker
cardinal, i answer your post #216.
i gave a lot more evidence of the work of God in my life than the casting out of devils. I spoke of having received the Holy Spirit through these men. while there is the Scripture you mention, which shows that one can be found false after having cast out devils, consider this one.
Jesus said:
Luke 11:20 KJV But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
there are no scriptures that show that one can receive the Spirit through a person who is false. in fact, the disciples who believed Philip's preaching in Acts 8 needed to have peter and john sent to them to receive the Spirit - Philip couldn't do that for them! And at that same time, simon the conjuror asked for the power to impart the holy Spirit, and that was denied to him because of the evil motives of his heart.
there is a lot of evidence in the Bible that shows that the Holy Spirit cannot be given through those who are false.
back to the scripture you quoted:
Matthew 7:22-23 KJV Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Raising children in the Lord isn't in this list. only true shepherds can raise children in the Lord.
consider that paul the apostle said:
1 Corinthians 9:1-2 KJV Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? (2) If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
I am the seal of victor and Paul's apostleship. who else but the Lord could give me a daily walk with Him with all the fruits of the Spirit and direction through them to this day? all of this testifies to the genuineness of their ministry.
as to the rest of your post, just like CHB you are guilty of taking from the Bible:
Revelation 22:18-19 GNB I, John, solemnly warn everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: if any add anything to them, God will add to their punishment the plagues described in this book. (19) And if any take anything away from the prophetic words of this book, God will take away from them their share of the fruit of the tree of life and of the Holy City, which are described in this book.
for i have given you the Scriptures that speak against what you are saying- that there are no longer men of God to lead His Body to the right relationship with Him. denying His servants, you deny Him and any portion in Him.
i now answer others of you.
nathan, paul the apostle said:
If I have, as it were, fought "wild beasts" here in Ephesus simply from human motives, what have I gained? But if the dead are not raised to life, then, as the saying goes, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we will die." (1 Corinthians 15:32 GNB)
would you accuse apostle Paul of not having been mature in the faith because he "fought with wild beasts"?
if that were the case, why would he say this?
Ephesians 6:10-16 KJV
(10) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
(11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
(12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
(14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
(15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
(16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
whereas Paul the apostle says to be strong in the faith, wrestling against the rulers of the darkness of this world, you say it is a sign of immaturity? there are many Scriptures that indicate otherwise. Should I take your word over theirs?
there is also this exhortation from jude:
Jude 1:3-4 KJV Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
so who are you to hold your opinion higher than the Word of God?
as for the rest of you, why compare us with Darwin Fish? as you have so amply noticed, we have him listed as a false teacher because he is teaching falsehood, which we pointed out to him for the good of all. (he was actually teaching people it is OK to masturbate as a believer in christ! what bondage his teachings would have kept me in!)
WW, can you back up your comment about paul Cohen with the Scriptures?
brian, when a person chooses to hold onto their falsehood rather than heed and obey the Lord, who is the one being hateful? the one who rejects God, or the one who warned him?
A third reply to Paul, if interested follow the link already provided.
Quote from: Witness on March 12, 2009, 05:42:18 AM
i now answer others of you.
nathan, paul the apostle said:
If I have, as it were, fought "wild beasts" here in Ephesus simply from human motives, what have I gained? But if the dead are not raised to life, then, as the saying goes, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we will die." (1 Corinthians 15:32 GNB)
would you accuse apostle Paul of not having been mature in the faith because he "fought with wild beasts"?
if that were the case, why would he say this?
Ephesians 6:10-16 KJV
(10) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
(11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
(12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
(14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
(15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
(16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
whereas Paul the apostle says to be strong in the faith, wrestling against the rulers of the darkness of this world, you say it is a sign of immaturity? there are many Scriptures that indicate otherwise. Should I take your word over theirs?
there is also this exhortation from jude:
Jude 1:3-4 KJV Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
so who are you to hold your opinion higher than the Word of God?
as for the rest of you, why compare us with Darwin Fish? as you have so amply noticed, we have him listed as a false teacher because he is teaching falsehood, which we pointed out to him for the good of all. (he was actually teaching people it is OK to masturbate as a believer in christ! what bondage his teachings would have kept me in!)
WW, can you back up your comment about paul Cohen with the Scriptures?
brian, when a person chooses to hold onto their falsehood rather than heed and obey the Lord, who is the one being hateful? the one who rejects God, or the one who warned him?
Not going to get pulled into a debate with you . . .
Quotethere is a lot of evidence in the Bible that shows that the Holy Spirit cannot be given through those who are false.
Even if it is true what you say, The holy spirit does not need a man to give it in the first place. You could be deceived into thinking men did it when you actually received it without them and they used that to their own advantage.
Masturbation is not wrong, btw. Is the boogey man going to make me pay because I taught my kids its ok?
Quote from: Witness on March 12, 2009, 05:42:18 AM
WW, can you back up your comment about paul Cohen with the Scriptures?
I think the reply was clear enough....?
According to Paul everyone that reads a verse (slightly) different then he does is mistaken, misguided, etc.
"I know everything. Try to prove me wrong. Your interpretation is different from mine so you are wrong because I know everything."
That's what I call circular reasoning.
But I fear you have no clue what I mean because you asked for scriptures.
You are doing a bad job as a disciple of Paul because the last thing he wants is people agreeing with his views.
Quote from: peacemaker on March 12, 2009, 04:26:37 AM
Pneuma, excellent quotes ...
"Words of judgment do not bother me, words of judgment without knowledge do."
"Strife means a courting distinction; a desire to put one's self forward."
"Jesus said, my sheep know my voice and another they will not follow."
... much spoken in few words!
peacemaker
Apparently this only applies to Israel . . . Tony says we're not all sheep . .just those guys are.
Quote from: Witness
I spoke of having received the Holy Spirit through these men.
Well!! thats a new one on me, and I thought all the time we received the Holy Spirit through God? :mshock: :sigh:
Witness, I have a question? Is Paul C the only man that we can receive the Holy Spirit through?
CHB
Quote from: Nathan on March 12, 2009, 04:08:39 PM
Apparently this only applies to Israel . . . Tony says we're not all sheep . .just those guys are.
Lost sheep/House of Israel, then there's "found"/saved sheep, maybe...:Chinscratch: The lost sheep wouldn't hear/know His voice until/unless they were "found".... the majority of the House of Israel still don't ...my :2c:.
I didn't follow the whole discussion but the way other Christians believing in the final salvation of all are treated here is not good.
If we, believing in the reconcilation of all can't keep peace even with those believing the same than we are the worst example imaginable.
I sometimes chat with Paul and respect him, I share not all his opinions but I think some things he says are true, at least worth to hear.
A new reply to Paul C on my blog for those interested
Quote from: sven on March 12, 2009, 10:07:37 PM
I didn't follow the whole discussion but the way other Christians believing in the final salvation of all are treated here is not good.
If we, believing in the reconcilation of all can't keep peace even with those believing the same than we are the worst example imaginable.
I sometimes chat with Paul and respect him, I share not all his opinions but I think some things he says are true, at least worth to hear.
Sven it is not what Paul beleives so much as his judgments of everyone here that was the problem.
I am speaking with him also and you can find our letters to one another on my blog if you are interested.
Thanks Scott :icon_flower:
Quote from: firstborn888 on February 21, 2009, 12:39:45 PM
We don't need people rolling in here who believe they are the know all and end all and literally speak for God Himself - telling us who is saved and isn't, who knows God and doesn't etc. etc.
If someone wants to come in and discuss - fine. Paul has stated on his public forum that Gary (tentmaker founder) doesn't know God.
Quote: "We have also dealt with Gary Amirault of "Tentmaker," and he too does not know the Lord. He may have some true teachings, but so what? Men that do not know God are still in their sins and cannot bring one to God".
Reality isn't like that anyway. Jesus the true Light has shined on everyone coming into the world. There are degrees of knowing God. That corresponds to varying degrees of salvation. Knowlege of such things concerning others (even ourselves) is not common. When we know or prophetically see related things it is mostly something particular for the improvement of the one to which we are responsible to minister. Even those being given over to reprobate minds are so because of knowledge of God they hold. Even if suppressed it cannot be eliminated. It seems you might be beyond various degrees of this and that aspect of God, at least crossed some kind of line, if you have victory over death. But, you won't be spreading death if you have victory over it. I can try to defend black and white, cut and dried, you're in or out approaches with certain passages of Scripture; but, Jesus calling some leaders "whitewashed sepulchers filled with dead mens bones that men trod on unaware of what they're stepping in" was with the intent that they would recognize themselves and change. Jesus' purpose from the Father was to only speak into Life (to the degree pertaining to the eon in which He speaks) those to whom He was speaking. He is the source of our standard to bless and curse not, to not return evil for evil, but overcome evil with good.
I notice when it comes to the light these guys claim their supposed discernment is only for the evil: who does not know God or who is not saved. They have no light for the good, only for the evil.
"The lamp of the body is your eye. If, then, your eye should be single, your whole body will be luminous. Yet if your eye should be wicked, your whole body will be dark. If, then, the light that is in you is darkness, how dense is the darkness!" (Mt 6:22-23)
We know where Paul's heart is because we see what he treasures.
Quote from: Paul CHe and his family are greatly suffering the ravages of sin, as do many on Tentmaker
Care to expound ? :dontknow:
paul hazelwood, you write:
Even if it is true what you say, The holy spirit does not need a man to give it in the first place. You could be deceived into thinking men did it when you actually received it without them and they used that to their own advantage.
it is true that the holy Spirit can be given by God without the mediation of a man. in all cases in the Scriptures, however (besides the original recipients of His spirit at Pentecost), a man was required.
even the apostle Paul had to receive sight and the baptism in the Spirit from a man- Ananias. this was wonderfully arranged by God. it seems to me that you would say to Paul- "but you could have received without a man!" no, it has to be- always- as God gives it. otherwise, it is not to be.
as for myself, what you said is not true. I did not receive by myself from the Lord before Victor and paul laid hands on me. it was through their ministration.
you also write:
Masturbation is not wrong, btw.
the bible doesn't say that masturbation is OK. you may answer, "well, the bible doesn't say it's not!" in answer to that objection, I ask you to read the posting to darwin fish, "must everything be spelled out in the bible?":
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/issuesoflife/musteverythingbespelledout.htm
also consider what the Bible does speak about:
Matthew 5:27-29 MKJV You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not commit adultery." (28) But I say to you that whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (29) And if your right eye offends you, pluck it out and throw it from you. For it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be thrown into hell.
Leviticus 15:16-18 MKJV And if any man's semen goes from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water and be unclean until the evening. (17) And every garment and every skin on which the semen shall be, it shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the evening.
If, in the Old Testament, a man was unclean for having an ejaculation, and if, in the New Testament, Jesus said not to lust after a woman (or a woman after a man), why would masturbation then be OK?
here are some more scriptures that speak generally about succumbing to the lusts of the flesh:
Jude 1:16 KJV These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
2 Timothy 3:2-5 KJV
(2) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
(3) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
(4) Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
(5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Titus 3:3 KJV For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
why would it not be better to look to the Lord for deliverance and the holy life in Him?
2 Peter 2:9-10 MKJV The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust for a day of judgment, to be punished, (10) and especially those who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise dominion. They are darers, self-pleasing; not trembling at glories, speaking evil.
there is also a good and applicable scripture quoted at the end of this segment from "is your profession of faith vain, Christian?" (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/issuesoflife/professionoffaith.htm):
Are You a Masturbator?
Do you masturbate? Does your church teach or condone this as an alternative to being given over to the sin of fornication? Or do they not discuss it at all, leaving you to follow your own thoughts and inclinations? Be sure to know that indulging the lusts of the flesh is sowing in corruption, and you will reap the same. Rather than ruling over and keeping your body under, you are ruled by the carnal and physical appetites. To the world this is the way things are, not knowing any better or differently, but for the Christian it is a tragic loss. You have no idea of what you are losing or doing to yourself, those who name the Name of Christ and masturbate. Instead of entering into the victorious life of the Spirit, you consign yourself to spiritual death:
"But she who gives herself to pleasure is dead while she is living" (1 Timothy 5:6 BBE).
you ask, paul h.:
Is the boogey man going to make me pay because I taught my kids its ok?
obviously you aren't seeing how you pay right now, but one day you will when you realize the harm you did to your children in teaching them this. no, there is no boogey man, but there is the bondage to sin that causes death. I know, i was in that death, and now I know the difference after having been set free and given life in the Lord. praise his holy and blessed name!
i see you can't answer my question, WW. the only thing you can do is make up words, put them in someone's mouth, and then blame him. where do you find that in the Scriptures?
here is what I find:
Matthew 26:59-61 MKJV And the chief priests and the elders and all the sanhedrin sought false witness against Jesus, in order to put Him to death. (60) But they found none; yea, though many false witnesses came, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came up (61) and said, This one said, I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.
Quote from: Taffy on March 13, 2009, 03:11:16 AM
Quote from: Paul CHe and his family are greatly suffering the ravages of sin, as do many on Tentmaker
Care to expound ? :dontknow:
Black Propaganda (public agitation with pretense) that supports or serves a particular agenda, but fails to paint a complete picture, and is disseminated to influence the opinion, attitudes or behavior of others based on emotionalism, thus, it is deceptive and misleading; to create hatred towards their group in order for them to claim they are "the" path to truth, either directly or indirectly. Although, this is merely an attempt to transfer blame by labeling or stereotyping others – a form of Scapegoating.
"Outer publicity reveals inner instability."peacemaker
In chapter 7 of 1 Corinthians, verse 36-38 it could be read to apply to masturbation. There are details in the Greek that enhance that interpretation. One obvious reason is present interpreters using those verses in relation to marriage between a man and woman with that topic so well covered elsewhere in the chapter results in a redundancy on the matter, or so it seems to me.
Witness, you really have no idea what your talking about, seriously.
It is interesting that I taught my kids that they should masturbate so that the normal desires that they have sexually would not build up into physical indulgences that become spontaneous without reasonable thought. Religion has made normal human desire into a dirty porn movie because it is full of people who have sexual desire that they feel guilty about and want everyone else to be as miserable as they are.
They both are looking for mates that are kind and loving and respectful, so you really have no idea at all, you are bound to the perversion of religion that takes normal human behavior and desire and turns it in to something dirty.
So while you feel you have been delivered of some nasty habit, you have become a religious elitist to make yourself feel better.
Jude 1:16 KJV These are ****murmurers,*** complainers,***** walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
From the Abundance of the HEART the Mouth Speaks , seems these hearts were not oF the ONENESS Pauls speaks of BEING IN Christ.Flesh and its Wisdom,lays beneath and Is not ONE with the Wisdom which speaks from above.
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
The Lust( Desire) of the Mind, SPEAKING AFter its fleshy wisdom, For those who WALK in the Flesh Liv After the Flesh, but Paul speaks of US BEING SPIRIT.
These very same folk again after their OWN LUST, seeketh THEIR own Wisdom
2Titus 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Again speaking of the WISDOM of the WORLD being Ungodliness , those who HELD the FORM are mentioned in Rom 2:19
2 Timothy 3:2-5 KJV
(2) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
(3) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
(4) Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
(5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
For GRACE teaches US-
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
James speaks of the Double minded Man which again is he who speaks from Beneath and from ABove ,Tis called called Confusion, which GOD IS NOT..sin BRINGS FORTH THE fruit OF DEATH, THE SIMILITUDE shown in the Garden The Tree of Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, being the LAW...Praise Him FOR every GOOD GIFT comes DOWN from ABOVE.
For Death and Life are In the POWER of the tongue , praise him FOR all men shall"""confess"" HE IS LORD
Pro 18:21 Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jam 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning
:icon_flower:
Whew! No subjects are safe these days!!! :bigGrin:
Interesting perspective on this masterbation thing Paul. I was brought up in the strict disposition that it's evil, sinful and of the devil. Nearly impossible for a teenager with exploding hormones and no real identity of who one is yet, to get a handle on it all. I feel much rebuke and disdain in the tone of Witness's take on it . . . I find myself sort of inbetween the two of you.
While I don't think it's to much different than any other area of weakness in us, and even though righteousness in me is not affected by what I "do", I am hesitant to openly suggest it's okay to actively pursue . . . It just seems to me to be come under the arena of self-gratification. Now, I'm all about walking in the freedom of Christ and pursuing that easy yoke of his and I have eased up a lot on all of the previous assumptions of what is and what isn't sinful in me . . .and I've let go of almost all of it as a result.
I guess what I'm saying is, as my sons get older and I can stop shaking from the idea of having to breach the subject with them (dry humor) that I may approach it like everything else that has been so abused .. . "Don't beat yourself up over it, but at the same time, don't let it have control over you either . . ."
Lust does seem to be pretty closely connected to the act of doing it . . .maybe not in all cases . . .but for me, really, as touchy of a subject as this one can be . . .the application is the same as anything else . . . my relationship with the Father is first and foremost, a "personal" relationship. It's between me and the Father . . .and as a Father to my sons, I will explain to them the negative aspects of the things that are attached to this activity, but the ultimate decision is up to the individual. If God gives them the strength to abstain, awesome! If they have weakness in that area, then I call upon the grace and mercy of the Lord to continue to mature us in him, in spite of ourselves.
Maybe I feel about this as I do because of the negative stigma that my parents instilled in me when I was young . . .all I know is . . .it's a tough one to deal with, especially if your support group has an inaccurate perspective on it.
:cloud9: What those that want to walk in condemnation need to be aware of is, there is a spiritual root behind every missing of the mark, not only from a personal perspective, but from an overall perspective as it relates to the Tabernacle pattern.
I have related this before but one day as I was getting ready for work the news was on, and I heard this horrible story being related about what some man did in murdering a kidnapped small child. Repulsed, sickened and angered, I spoke out to the Lord, not expecting an answer, "Lord! Why do you continue to allow such things to go on?" He said, "Well, it's YOUR (meaning the spiritual priesthood's) fault!"
Stunned, I said, "What do You mean, it's OUR fault? How could it be OUR fault?"
He said, "I made the inner court priesthood (spiritual) to be one with Head. I said I only did what I saw My Father (Head) do. When they (those in the outer court realm of the flesh) see thru a glass darkly (darkened soul) you hate your brother in your heart, they go out and murder theirs, hate and murder being as the same sin. So it's YOUR (the priesthood's) fault."
So then the principle is, that the body can only do what it sees it's head do. So any who are specifically offended by masturbation, do you not know it exists because the heart of the priesthood needs to be cleansed from preferring (desiring) their own flesh above that of their "wives" (ie. the body)? Which is why He rebuked the Pharisees (who had been made to be one with the Head in the first dispensation) telling them to clean the INSIDE of the cup, and not just the outside.
Judgment begins in the house of the Lord, and we are to judge ourselves first, lest we be judged by the same measure. Blessings....
Quote from: Nathan on March 13, 2009, 03:45:33 PM
Whew! No subjects are safe these days!!! :bigGrin:
Interesting perspective on this masterbation thing Paul. I was brought up in the strict disposition that it's evil, sinful and of the devil. Nearly impossible for a teenager with exploding hormones and no real identity of who one is yet, to get a handle on it all. I feel much rebuke and disdain in the tone of Witness's take on it . . . I find myself sort of inbetween the two of you.
It is sex in general that religion has made dirty. Someone coming from the standpoint of being addicted to masturbation has shown me that this religious instruction is also in error. The addiction to it has a root that has not been dealt with and it more has to do with relationships with who they are attracted to rather than the act itself.
Those that stand in the light of the letter of the law are more infuenced by mans perversion than they will ever admit. I see a vile affection with this ministry that witness is involved in and when someone reads vile affection typically they will think of sexuality. When a vile affection is many things, one is getting pleasure from the religious condemnation of others while sowing seeds of cursing and fear. I know they get pleasure from it because they relate it in justification to their walk with Christ and claim they have the truth. that makes them feel good in the walk deep in their heart knows is darkness.
Their vile affection is thinking their words and predictions of curse and gloom is good in the eyes of their Idol of God they worship. That idol is their own pleasure at the expense of others hearts.
I'll stake my very life on the fact that my sons while not in a state of perfection seek goodness, they seek the understanding of what is truly spiritual apart from religious perversion and they seek a life mate whoever that may be that they can love and whos heart is of the same manner.
So when these thrill seekers of religious condemnation and bondage come with their clanging voices and vile pleasures, it is them that believe they are pure in that manner that are dirty and need cleansing.
The GOOD NEWS we are to share is that they too will one day come to know the great contentment of Gods spirit and understanding beyond thought.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 13, 2009, 05:32:06 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 13, 2009, 03:45:33 PM
Whew! No subjects are safe these days!!! :bigGrin:
Interesting perspective on this masterbation thing Paul. I was brought up in the strict disposition that it's evil, sinful and of the devil. Nearly impossible for a teenager with exploding hormones and no real identity of who one is yet, to get a handle on it all. I feel much rebuke and disdain in the tone of Witness's take on it . . . I find myself sort of inbetween the two of you.
It is sex in general that religion has made dirty. Someone coming from the standpoint of being addicted to masturbation has shown me that this religious instruction is also in error. The addiction to it has a root that has not been dealt with and it more has to do with relationships with who they are attracted to rather than the act itself.
Those that stand in the light of the letter of the law are more infuenced by mans perversion than they will ever admit. I see a vile affection with this ministry that witness is involved in and when someone reads vile affection typically they will think of sexuality. When a vile affection is many things, one is getting pleasure from the religious condemnation of others while sowing seeds of cursing and fear. I know they get pleasure from it because they relate it in justification to their walk with Christ and claim they have the truth. that makes them feel good in the walk deep in their heart knows is darkness.
Their vile affection is thinking their words and predictions of curse and gloom is good in the eyes of their Idol of God they worship. That idol is their own pleasure at the expense of others hearts.
I'll stake my very life on the fact that my sons while not in a state of perfection seek goodness, they seek the understanding of what is truly spiritual apart from religious perversion and they seek a life mate whoever that may be that they can love and whos heart is of the same manner.
So when these thrill seekers of religious condemnation and bondage come with their clanging voices and vile pleasures, it is them that believe they are pure in that manner that are dirty and need cleansing.
The GOOD NEWS we are to share is that they too will one day come to know the great contentment of Gods spirit and understanding beyond thought.
Now "that" strikes a chord Paul . . .and I can see what you're saying about those that seem to thrive on the disagreeable comments of others. In fact, I really like how you put it.
Hi Witness,
(Lev. 15:16-17) It doesn't say this is a sin, just that it is unclean. Just like it doesn't say it is a sin if a woman has a blood issue but it says it is unclean (Verse 19-30).
Witness, do you practice the things that are said in verse 19-30 when you have your period? According to what you have said it is a sin for you to have your period if it is a sin to masturbate and you must offer burnt offerings and all sorts of things to become clean again.
If you are under the law and break the least, then you are guilty of breaking the whole.
You did not answer my other question about receiving the Holy Spirit. Why?
CHB
hmm about masturbation, I know it's a kind of taboo, in earlier days I found nothing wrong about but in the meanwhile I think it's not right, the Jehovah Witnesses say it's uncleanness but not fornication. I personally don't see it forbidden in the Bible.
Do you think if I do it sometimes knowing it's maybe not right this is a deliberate sin?
I don't do it often and am not obsessed with it, I've never slept with a girl and don't go out and this things, but I'm just a guy, I'm not perfect.
About 35 years ago I was sitting by an open window reading the Bible at a friend's house. A wisp of vapor entered through the screen and caused me to suddenly be in another realm. I could see multitudes of lush grasses waving in the warm breezes. The moist atmosphere was filled with various seeds released in streams from the plants. And I saw individual human sexuality fitting into the fecund scene, releasing superfluous seeds in the winds. Then the attention was inside the temple of my body, in my darkened head, where, in a lower and lesser realm from where I was observing, my mind normally functioned. "This is what I care about." That was the gist of what was said about what God is most concerned with. It's what we're thinking about sex. Then the pale wisp of vapor went out of me and left through the window from whence it came.
your brother, James Rohde
Quote from: sven on March 13, 2009, 08:12:30 PM
I don't do it often and am not obsessed with it, I've never slept with a girl and don't go out and this things, but I'm just a guy, I'm not perfect.
Don't live in guilt that is of no positive consequence.
Quote from: reFORMer on March 13, 2009, 08:14:06 PM
About 35 years ago I was sitting by an open window reading the Bible at a friend's house. A wisp of vapor entered through the screen and caused me to suddenly be in another realm. I could see multitudes of lush grasses waving in the warm breezes. The moist atmosphere was filled with various seeds released in streams from the plants. And I saw individual human sexuality fitting into the fecund scene, releasing superfluous seeds in the winds. Then the attention was inside the temple of my body, in my darkened head, where, in a lower and lesser realm from where I was observing, my mind normally functioned. The word to me was to the effect of: "My care is for what your thoughts are." Then the pale wisp of vapor went out of me and left through the window from whence it came. your brother, James Rohde
:cloud9: And He did say Abraham's SEED, NOT seed's, being MANY, unlike the man of the Gadarenes who said we are legion, for we ARE MANY, didn't He? Blessings....
just a bit of explanation to all of you. i am a busy woman, so I copy and paste all quotes to myself and take them with me to answer as led throughout the day. then when I come here to post, there are usually more posts up since I last viewed the forum. i just leave those to consider for my next batch of answers.
so, CHB, your question came in between batches, and I am answering more now.
you wrote:
Well!! thats a new one on me, and I thought all the time we received the Holy Spirit through God?
i am speaking of receiving from God, as you should know. I backed this up with examples from the Scriptures (citing Paul receiving through ananias, and showing that those who received since Pentecost in the bible received through a man).
Witness, I have a question? Is Paul C the only man that we can receive the Holy Spirit through?
CHB
you can't receive the Holy Spirit through any man of God, because you are in unrepentance and disobedience.
Acts 5:32 MKJV And we are His witnesses of these things. And so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.
scott, you say:
Sven it is not what Paul beleives so much as his judgments of everyone here that was the problem.
those are only a problem, Scott, if you are not able or willing to repent or to answer them in truth.
reformer, your post #259 demonstrates simply that you don't know what you are talking about. you can theorize all you want, but until you know the truth from God, being and growing in Him, you simply don't know. one day you will know this. here is the quote that you tried to answer from Paul:
Men that do not know God are still in their sins and cannot bring one to God
paul did not say, "men that do not know of God," he said, "men that do not know God." you are speaking of knowledge. paul is talking about relationship. you don't have that relationship, so you don't know what he is saying.
you wrote:
I notice when it comes to the light these guys claim their supposed discernment is only for the evil: who does not know God or who is not saved. They have no light for the good, only for the evil.
I gave a lot of light in my answers to many here- demonstrating to everyone what great and wonderful and glorious things God has done in my life. I did this in order to say that if you will repent, you (all) can have this, too! what greater light is there to share? but you only see it as darkness.
2 Corinthians 2:15-17 MKJV
(15) For we are to God a sweet savor of Christ, in those being saved, and in those being lost;
(16) to the one we are the savor of death to death, and to the other we are the savor of life to life. And who is sufficient for these things?
(17) For we are not as many, hawking the Word of God; but as of sincerity, but as of God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.
taffy, you quote Paul and ask:
He and his family are greatly suffering the ravages of sin, as do many on Tentmaker
Care to expound ?
are you not aware of the many illnesses and troublings that afflict many of your members here at tentmaker? take a walk through the "Prayer Room." you even wrote a number of the posts!
this is not "black propaganda," peacemaker, it is the truth. see for yourself. you think the things recounted there demonstrate the blessing and abundant life promised by God?
reformer (#263) those verses in 1 Corinthians 7 are speaking of a man and a woman. there is no way you can say they are talking about masturbation unless you are adding to the Book.
Revelation 22:18 MKJV For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. [are not the evidences of these plagues already made clear in the "Prayer Room"?]
paul h. (#264)- you need to demonstrate biblically how i have no idea what I am talking about, since i spoke to you from the Scriptures. your opinions aren't scripture.
taffy (#265)- your post makes no sense. it appears you are lacking the sound mind that it says the Lord gives to His people.
your quote from titus:
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
actually speaks in favor of what I was saying. how can anyone defend masturbation while denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, and while living soberly, righteously, and godly?
nathan (#266), i neither rebuked nor disdained anyone here. i simply gave scriptural evidence that masturbation is not godly.
I agree, cardinal (#267), that masturbation exists because a man or woman prefers his or her own body either to his or her spouse or to living celibate. since I readily confessed to all of you my past bondage of masturbation and told you that the Lord released me from that bondage, how then does this apply to me?:
Judgment begins in the house of the Lord, and we are to judge ourselves first, lest we be judged by the same measure.
paul H. (#268), you write:
Someone coming from the standpoint of being addicted to masturbation has shown me that this religious instruction is also in error.
if you are saying that someone addicted to masturbation showed you that masturbation is OK, why would you take that person's word for it, especially when he/she desires to continue in his/her masturbation without feeling guilty? will you listen to a thief who tells you stealing is OK? which will you believe, the Word of God or the opinions of a man? I am giving you the Word of God.
many here seem to take the position that unless you can show this teaching (that masturbation is wrong) to be wrong, there is no alternative than for an addicted person to live in guilt for the rest of his life- guilt you believe to be unfounded. But I am pointing to the Solution to this guilt- the Lord! He released me from that addiction, so that I would struggle no more, because the sin was taken away from me.
you say, paul:
I see a vile affection with this ministry that witness is involved in and when someone reads vile affection typically they will think of sexuality.
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Galatians 5:24 KJV).
the Lord gave me a vision recently that showed me that these kinds of speculations on tentmaker are very lustful, the equivalent of spiritual masturbation. You are pleasing yourselves with carnal spiritualizing that's evil.
you also say:
When a vile affection is many things, one is getting pleasure from the religious condemnation of others while sowing seeds of cursing and fear. I know they get pleasure from it because they relate it in justification to their walk with Christ and claim they have the truth. that makes them feel good in the walk deep in their heart knows is darkness.
you don't know what you are talking about, and you don't know that what you are saying is true for us (and it's not).
you need to back up all your statements with facts, both from our words and from the Bible. i can say that we find all of your behaviors vexing and disgusting - not a pleasure at all to deal with. but it is a glorious thing and great honor to speak the Truth.
chb (#270), you write:
(Lev. 15:16-17) It doesn't say this is a sin, just that it is unclean. Just like it doesn't say it is a sin if a woman has a blood issue but it says it is unclean (Verse 19-30).
I never said an ejaculation is a sin, i said it was unclean. it is a sin, however, to fantasize lustfully, inducing that ejaculation. and even if one is very good with controlling his/her thoughts, playing with fire leads to getting burned. it is written in the Law that a man can become unclean for the sake of his wife, or may have a nocturnal emission, but those who have the conviction of the Holy Spirit know it is not a good practice to masturbate.
you also write:
Witness, do you practice the things that are said in verse 19-30 when you have your period? According to what you have said it is a sin for you to have your period if it is a sin to masturbate and you must offer burnt offerings and all sorts of things to become clean again.
If you are under the law and break the least, then you are guilty of breaking the whole.
it is a sin for you to put evil words in my mouth. I have no control over my period, but you decide if you will masturbate. big difference. you are right that breaking the least equates to breaking the whole, and you need to repent.
I (and we who believe) are not, however, "under the Law." we have been given by God to keep the spirit of the Law (which is what Jesus was talking about when He spoke of what it is to look at a woman with lust). that is why we know masturbation is wrong.
as for the menstruation rules, yes I do keep those, by taking measures of keeping myself and my surroundings clean with an awareness I didn't have before coming to believe.
in this question:
You did not answer my other question about receiving the Holy Spirit. Why?
I suspect you are echoing my statement to WW that he could not answer my question. he had responded to my post. I had not yet responded to yours, for reasons laid out at the beginning of this post.
sven (#271), do you still not see masturbation forbidden in the Bible after the scriptures I gave? read my post #261. of all people, I cannot condemn you for masturbating. you do need to know, however, that there is a better way for those who believe. the Lord can deliver you if you turn to him in repentance.
Sara
"my purpose is not to become friends. my purpose has been to ask about Paul being kicked off your forum, and to present some points and questions that I found to be very applicable. (if there is anyone interested in the truth, we would naturally be friends.) since then, my point has been to answer those who are talking to me, bringing up various scriptures and comments that need to be answered.
Sarah, you could have red my introduction post wherein I described myself as a young woman. no big deal."
:mblush: my bad. I am rather a little spacy and do not have as much free time on my hands to be diligent and go back and re-read posts to consider your sex.
Anyways, perhaps I lumped you and Paul in the same basket. You are right, you came to defend his ability to be here. Which though in a sense makes you 'in the same basket'. It seems you are over here just to pick people apart with your testimony being your foundation and justification for doing so. I also have a testimony. I also have witnessessed true miracles by false prophets. I stuggled with this for a long time thinking they were from God because of the miracles and the true prophecies that came to pass in my life. But one morning I woke up with 'Deuteronomy 13' clearly on my mind. I hadn't read the passage or wasn't aware of it.
1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,
2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, Let us follow other gods (gods you have not known) and let us worship them,
3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
This tells me that all miracles are from God, but not all miracle workers are. We will know them by their fruits; love, joy, peace, longsuffering, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control and goodness.
A large rose-tree stood near the entrance of the garden: the roses growing on it were white, but there were three gardeners at it, busily painting them red. Alice thought this a very curious thing, and she went nearer to watch them, and just as she came up to them she heard one of them say, `Look out now, Five! Don't go splashing paint over me like that!'
`I couldn't help it,' said Five, in a sulky tone; `Seven jogged my elbow.'
On which Seven looked up and said, `That's right, Five! Always lay the blame on others!'
`YOU'D better not talk!'said Five. `I heard the Queen say only yesterday you deserved to be beheaded!'
`What for?' said the one who had spoken first.
`That's none of YOUR business, Two!' said Seven.
`Yes, it IS his business!' said Five, `and I'll tell him--it was for bringing the cook tulip-roots instead of onions.'
Seven flung down his brush, and had just begun `Well, of all the unjust things--' when his eye chanced to fall upon Alice, as she stood watching them, and he checked himself suddenly: the others looked round also, and all of them bowed low.
`Would you tell me,' said Alice, a little timidly, `why you are painting those roses?'
Five and Seven said nothing, but looked at Two. Two began in a low voice, `Why the fact is, you see, Miss, this here ought to have been a RED rose-tree, and we put a white one in by mistake; and if the Queen was to find it out, we should all have our heads cut off, you know. So you see, Miss, we're doing our best, afore she comes, to--' At this moment Five, who had been anxiously looking across the garden, called out `The Queen! The Queen!' and the three gardeners instantly threw themselves flat upon their faces. There was a sound of many footsteps, and Alice looked round, eager to see the Queen.
First came ten soldiers carrying clubs; these were all shaped like the three gardeners, oblong and flat, with their hands and feet at the corners: next the ten courtiers; these were ornamented all over with diamonds, and walked two and two, as the soldiers did. After these came the royal children; there were ten of them, and the little dears came jumping merrily along hand in hand, in couples: they were all ornamented with hearts. Next came the guests, mostly Kings and Queens, and among them Alice recognised the White Rabbit: it was talking in a hurried nervous manner, smiling at everything that was said, and went by without noticing her. Then followed the Knave of Hearts, carrying the King's crown on a crimson velvet cushion; and, last of all this grand procession, came THE KING AND QUEEN OF HEARTS.
Alice was rather doubtful whether she ought not to lie down on her face like the three gardeners, but she could not remember ever having heard of such a rule at processions; `and besides, what would be the use of a procession,' thought she, `if people had all to lie down upon their faces, so that they couldn't see it?' So she stood still where she was, and waited.
When the procession came opposite to Alice, they all stopped and looked at her, and the Queen said severely `Who is this?' She said it to the Knave of Hearts, who only bowed and smiled in reply.
`Idiot!' said the Queen, tossing her head impatiently; and, turning to Alice, she went on, `What's your name, child?'
`My name is Alice, so please your Majesty,' said Alice very politely; but she added, to herself, `Why, they're only a pack of cards, after all. I needn't be afraid of them!'
`And who are THESE?' said the Queen, pointing to the three gardeners who were lying round the rosetree; for, you see, as they were lying on their faces, and the pattern on their backs was the same as the rest of the pack, she could not tell whether they were gardeners, or soldiers, or courtiers, or three of her own children.
`How should I know?' said Alice, surprised at her own courage. `It's no business of MINE.'
The Queen turned crimson with fury, and, after glaring at her for a moment like a wild beast, screamed `Off with her head! Off--'
`Nonsense!' said Alice, very loudly and decidedly, and the Queen was silent.
The King laid his hand upon her arm, and timidly said `Consider, my dear: she is only a child!'
The Queen turned angrily away from him, and said to the Knave `Turn them over!'
The Knave did so, very carefully, with one foot.
`Get up!' said the Queen, in a shrill, loud voice, and the three gardeners instantly jumped up, and began bowing to the King, the Queen, the royal children, and everybody else.
`Leave off that!' screamed the Queen. `You make me giddy.' And then, turning to the rose-tree, she went on, `What HAVE you been doing here?'
`May it please your Majesty,' said Two, in a very humble tone, going down on one knee as he spoke, `we were trying--'
`I see!' said the Queen, who had meanwhile been examining the roses. `Off with their heads!' and the procession moved on, three of the soldiers remaining behind to execute the unfortunate gardeners, who ran to Alice for protection.
`You shan't be beheaded!' said Alice, and she put them into a large flower-pot that stood near. The three soldiers wandered about for a minute or two, looking for them, and then quietly marched off after the others.
`Are their heads off?' shouted the Queen.
`Their heads are gone, if it please your Majesty!' the soldiers shouted in reply.
`That's right!' shouted the Queen. `Can you play croquet?'
The soldiers were silent, and looked at Alice, as the question was evidently meant for her.
`Yes!' shouted Alice.
`Come on, then!' roared the Queen, and Alice joined the procession, wondering very much what would happen next.
http://ftp.cs.indiana.edu/metastuff/wonder/ch8.html
Quote from: CHB
Witness, I have a question? Is Paul C the only man that we can receive the Holy Spirit through?
CHB
Quote from: Witness
you can't receive the Holy Spirit through any man of God, because you are in unrepentance and disobedience.
Witness, if I was repenant who should I trust to receive the Holy Spirit through?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 15, 2009, 08:24:51 PM
you can't receive the Holy Spirit through any man of God, because you are in unrepentance and disobedience.
Witness, if I was repenant who should I trust to receive the Holy Spirit through?
CHB
[/quote]
Obviously, a very good question, C.
And the unrighteous judgment is based on what? CHB, have you told "witness" that you don't believe in Jesus and are living in open, willful rebellious sin? If not, then, don't worry about someone judging you and believers in direct opposition to scripture. Is that obedience?
Quotetaffy, you quote Paul and ask:
He and his family are greatly suffering the ravages of sin, as do many on Tentmaker
Care to expound ?
are you not aware of the many illnesses and troublings that afflict many of your members here at tentmaker? take a walk through the "Prayer Room." you even wrote a number of the posts!
TIS why I asked the question Witness,, ive seen you many time lurking the Prayer room, so this is NO surprise.
So Lets get this Straight-
Sickness\infirm = repayment for sin , anyone who is Sick\Infirm ARE sinners?
Ya may have overlooked what was mentioned to you before.
Jhn 9:1 And as [Jesus] passed by,
he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth.
Jhn 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master,
who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jhn 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this
man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God
should be made manifest in him.
Now as for sinners and those things that offend , Just how many folk do you see walking around without Eyes , Hands and Feet ?
Ill leave this , as I dare say there will be other comments, to your words. :sigh:
Quotetaffy (#265)- your post makes no sense. it appears you are lacking the sound mind that it says the Lord gives to His people.
your quote from titus:
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
actually speaks in favor of what I was saying. how can anyone defend masturbation while denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, and while living soberly, righteously, and godly?
not only quoted that but others which relate to it...as these do below.
Not Only my Post\posts, but the post of others make no sence to you , why should this one be the first., what you dont understand or agree with you dismiss out right , as for SOUND Mind, thats another topic.
Note , Our Converstion ,Pauls words KNIT, and bear testimony else where-
Ephes 2:3
Among whom also
we all had our conversation in times past in the
lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by
nature **the children of wrath**, even **as others**.The Tongue is an evil little member, WHICH boasts great Things speaking Great swelling words,My post was In relation to the Lust ( desire) of the Mind ,
Ungodliness\wordly Lusts are very much in relation of what folk speak of..., From the abundance of the HEART the Mouth speaks, it speaks mans wisdom in relation to the law, that which is beneath, OR ,it speaks from a New Heart and NEW tongue, and those things above, The New Covenant, Prophsying as the Did the Apostles HIS NAME.
NOTE again in regard to the tongue.
Isnt Titus about folk who
crept in unawares, they being of the
Circumcision?...well yes they are
2Ti 2:16 But
shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will
increase unto more ungodliness. Rom 1:18 For the
wrath of God is revealed from
heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who
hold the truth in unrighteousness; Also those who spoke the form of righteousness\Truth Rom 2:19
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
Tis a short version
Jam 3:2 For in many things we offend all.
If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to
bridle the whole body.
Quote from: Witness on March 13, 2009, 05:52:40 AM
i see you can't answer my question, WW. the only thing you can do is make up words, put them in someone's mouth, and then blame him. where do you find that in the Scriptures?
here is what I find:
Matthew 26:59-61 MKJV And the chief priests and the elders and all the sanhedrin sought false witness against Jesus, in order to put Him to death. (60) But they found none; yea, though many false witnesses came, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came up (61) and said, This one said, I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.
:laughing7: That kind of twisting/manipulation won't stick on me.... It only proves you have no answer to my claims.
Clearly you still have no clue what I'm saying, or simply are avoiding something you don't like.
The verses you quoted are yet another proof you have no clue about what I actually wrote. One last try you can again avoid. Step by step this time.
Jesus isn't in this thread so please allow me to slightly change the verses in true and false witnesses.
Paul claims he is the true witness. All who oppose his teachings are false witnesses. Correct so far?
If 2 persons have different views at least one of them is (partly) wrong.
What I'm seeing on this forum and Pauls forum is that two persons 'fight' each other with verses.
Many false teachers will come. Maybe all on this forum are false teachers including Paul C.
Maybe he is the only false teacher. Maybe he is the only true teacher. Are you a true witness or a false witness?
Then this is what I meant by the circular reasoning in my earlier post:
Paul is a true teacher. Therefore everyone who proves him wrong is a false teacher.
That is only true if he can prove he is the true teacher.
Is he a perfect teacher like Father/Son/HS? If the answer is no he should be open for opposing views because someone might be addressing one of his few/many misunderstandings.
I hope it's clear now. But I have no high hopes. :thinking:
Quotescott, you say:
Sven it is not what Paul beleives so much as his judgments of everyone here that was the problem.
those are only a problem, Scott, if you are not able or willing to repent or to answer them in truth.
Hope you have been following mine and PaulC letters to each other on my blog Witness, as I have addressed his judgments, his strife and other things.
You should read my last letter to him and you followers of PaulC that I wrote today and posted on my blog and ask yourself the questions I asked you followers of Paul C to ask yourself.
Quote from: Witness on March 15, 2009, 04:54:13 PM
paul h. (#264)- you need to demonstrate biblically how i have no idea what I am talking about, since i spoke to you from the Scriptures. your opinions aren't scripture.
No, I do not have to demonstrate with scripture because you are posting scripture as a method of telling me what interpretation of scripture you believe. (Please feel free to use that to say that I cannot demonstrate with scripture as a reason to avoid the facts)
Whether you agree, or believe me does not change what I know about myself and my sons. The very fact that you believe God is giving you visions and those visions bear no truth in my families life tells me that your wrong. And that is the facts.
Quote
Someone coming from the standpoint of being addicted to masturbation has shown me that this religious instruction is also in error.
if you are saying that someone addicted to masturbation showed you that masturbation is OK, why would you take that person's word for it, especially when he/she desires to continue in his/her masturbation without feeling guilty? will you listen to a thief who tells you stealing is OK? which will you believe, the Word of God or the opinions of a man? I am giving you the Word of God.
You have been misled from the root of the problem. Masturbation is not the problem any more than having sex is a problem. It is the addiction to a behavior that is the problem. It demonstrates that you are still in bondage to religious dogma. Addiction to sex doesn't mean you solve the problem by not having sex anymore. There are things where abstaining for a period of time to sort out the root of a problem is beneficial but each case can be different and this is one of them that it may depend on the person and the situation.
Many would say that sex within marriage is just fine, yet they forget that the same feelings happen when having sex whether you are married or not. The act of masturbation does not create anything in the mind that is not already there. Sexual attraction, sex, masturbation, thinking of sexual thoughts about someone else is not what lust inherantly is concerning sexuality. It is the obsession over sexuality as a primary function of another human being that is.
Lust is not only about sexuality.
If I encountered someone who was stealing because they did not see any other option to feed their family (I have BTW) then I will tell you that again, you have no idea what your talking about. You really don't.
Quote
the Lord gave me a vision recently that showed me that these kinds of speculations on tentmaker are very lustful, the equivalent of spiritual masturbation. You are pleasing yourselves with carnal spiritualizing that's evil.
Then you missed the Lords message. There are no humans beings that can fully comprehend Gods greatness and all human beings, every single one of them, wonder, contemplate and want to believe the things that make them feel good. So while you wish to apply your vision to tentmaker, you are proven to be a liar because your vision was for you. It was for you not because we here at tentmaker are completely flawless in the manner in which you talk about spiritual masturbation. It is because every human being will deal with that and you got that vision because the ROOT of YOUR ADDICTION is still present.
And the error of teaching you are following is why God gave you that vision. He wants YOU to be free of the LAW and thrive spiritually.
Quote
you need to back up all your statements with facts, both from our words and from the Bible. i can say that we find all of your behaviors vexing and disgusting - not a pleasure at all to deal with. but it is a glorious thing and great honor to speak the Truth.
It's the martyr complex that you have. It is your emotional reaction to what you think you see here that gives you away. Walking in the spirit would not allow such feelings to be a part of your conclusions.
Quote from: Witness on March 12, 2009, 05:42:18 AM
i now answer others of you.
as for the rest of you, why compare us with Darwin Fish? as you have so amply noticed, we have him listed as a false teacher because he is teaching falsehood, which we pointed out to him for the good of all. (he was actually teaching people it is OK to masturbate as a believer in christ! what bondage his teachings would have kept me in!)
WW, can you back up your comment about paul Cohen with the Scriptures?
brian, when a person chooses to hold onto their falsehood rather than heed and obey the Lord, who is the one being hateful? the one who rejects God, or the one who warned him?
One of, if not the first, false teacher list makers I ever came upon was Darwin Fish. To me he is the epitome of "everyone is a false teacher except me" types. Of course he's on your list and most likely you're on his. A lot of false teacher list makers have other false teacher list makers on their false teacher lists. I see a lot of what appears to me to be seething animosity directed towards those who are on whoever's false teacher list. In some cases the person on the false teacher list is someone who the list maker seems to have a personal grudge against.
But speaking of Darwin, according to him he is the only real teacher and everyone else is false. So why should I accept Paul Cohen's authority in these matters over Darwin Fish's? Other than the fact that I follow neither Paul or Apollos, 1 Corinthians 1:12-17. I follow Jesus. Him and Him alone.
Jesus alone is the way and the truth. If some man is claiming that he is the way and the truth, then he becomes a false Christ. So, who do you follow exclusively? If you're a true disciple of Christ, then Paul Cohen should come in as a very, very distant second and not really stand out much amongst other men. There is no man on this earth you should claim any spiritual allegiance to. If all were to put their entire allegiance, trust, learning and guidance in Christ and Christ alone exclusively, on an individual basis, then false teachers would have no sway over believers. Tell me, could you leave Paul Cohen this very minute, forever? If not, then you can not be a true disciple of Jesus, according to Him.
Jesus alone is the way and the truth. If some man is claiming that he is the way and the truth, then he becomes a false Christ. So, who do you follow exclusively? If you're a true disciple of Christ, then Paul Cohen, or whoever, should come in as a very, very distant second and not really stand out much amongst other men. There is no man on this earth you should claim any spiritual allegiance to. If all were to put their entire allegiance, trust, learning and guidance in Christ and Christ alone exclusively, on an individual basis, then false teachers would have no sway over believers. Tell me, could you leave Paul Cohen, or whoever, this very minute, forever? If not, then you can not be a true disciple of Jesus, according to Him.
It's been decided sara won't be with us anymore. She was allowed to go much longer with the personal attacks than most/anyone else would be...she was allowed to further expose the group and allow folks here to get a good look at that type of "ministry" and attitude within the body. It was initially thought there might be some hope to positively influence her, but as she went on, not so much. Again, she just further exposed the group for what they are, and at this point, she has continued attacking and insulting, so enough's enough. As far as I know, the thread will remain open (someone else may choose differently) and it can continue to be educational for us. Personally, I will choose to not keep reading and put that type of unrighteous judgment and attitude in my head, as I need to think on whatever is good, pure, just, etc....but there may be some that can still benefit/learn from it...
I will say that overall, I am very impressed with how the family at TM responded to her...with concern, honesty, while refusing to lower to the level of judgment, condemnation, and insult that she offered here.
God's blessing, James.
Quote from: jabcat on March 16, 2009, 08:20:18 PM
I will say that overall, I am very impressed with how the family at TM responded to her...with concern, honesty, while refusing to lower to the level of judgment, condemnation, and insult that she offered here.
Good leadership does follow. Or whatever the saying is in English....
Thanks for pulling that language stunt on us in Babylon Father! :reachout:
QuoteGod's blessing, James.
I hope He also has a little time left to bless me instead of only you James :laughing7:
KJamesV James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ
blessing us all, bro..we just often don't recognize it :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on March 16, 2009, 08:43:27 PM
blessing us all, bro..we just often don't recognize it :thumbsup:
I was just kidding....
For me a joke is one step away from hate and one step towards love/understanding.
you're pretty close to hating me then, huh? :happy3: thanks for moving in the right direction :happygrin:
Quote from: jabcat on March 16, 2009, 11:16:32 PM
you're pretty close to hating me then, huh?
Put of those dark ET glasses jabcat :cool:
:Urock:
just call me mean old ray charles :icon_rr:...
won't dwell on it here, but man, you should of heard the ET/hell sermon yesterday at my wife's "church"...I left before the sermon, but heard enough of it on the radio after I'd left (about 5 seconds) to get me going...we ended up texting back and forth about mixing context of scripture and the confusion it causes...not to mention ET's hell not being in scripture to begin with :mshock:. Anyway, if you ever chat with Paul Cohen, don't tell him I hijacked his thread :spank:.
Quote from: jabcat on March 16, 2009, 11:47:12 PM
won't dwell on it here, but man, you should of heard the ET/hell sermon yesterday at my wife's "church"...
Your wife is an ET?
QuoteAnyway, if you ever chat with Paul Cohen, don't tell him I hijacked his thread
I have no plans visiting Endor :sigh:
Quote from: jabcat on March 16, 2009, 11:47:12 PM
Anyway, if you ever chat with Paul Cohen, don't tell him I hijacked his thread :spank:.
Oh come on, nothing like a curse put on you from a man of God.
It seems impossible to account for the self-approved persistent blindness to such a very obvious condition as Paul Cohen, Darwin Fish, et al display unless you believe in demons. It is supposed to be an unacceptable breach of etiquette to seriously bring up demonization to those with whom you're arguing. But then how do you explain it? Scripture definitely says:
2 Corinthians 4:3-6 (CLV) . . .
3 Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing,
4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them.
5 For we are not heralding ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, yet ourselves your slaves because of Jesus,
6 for the God Who says that, out of darkness light shall be shining, is He Who shines in our hearts, with a view to the illumination of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: jabcat on March 16, 2009, 11:47:12 PM
Anyway, if you ever chat with Paul Cohen, don't tell him I hijacked his thread :spank:.
ROTFL. Cohen's thread was a hijack of this forum.
Quote from: Brian on March 17, 2009, 04:19:41 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 16, 2009, 11:47:12 PM
Anyway, if you ever chat with Paul Cohen, don't tell him I hijacked his thread :spank:.
ROTFL. Cohen's thread was a hijack of this forum.
:thumbsup: LOL...we did get to see some things we (thankfully) don't see every day.
Quote from: jabcat on March 16, 2009, 11:47:12 PM
won't dwell on it here, but man, you should of heard the ET/hell sermon yesterday at my wife's "church"...I left before the sermon, but heard enough of it on the radio after I'd left (about 5 seconds) to get me going...
Not meaning to dwell on it here either, however, what do you consider to be his motivation in giving an ET/hell sermon?
Well, this is the pastor I've shared UR with, most recently sent him the "Hell Test" off the TM homepage. I understand he was preaching on "the end times", which of course, from his perspective, would include most of humanity being tossed into "hell" forever.
I think I hear God telling me to not do anything further with him right now, that He will send someone else along next. We'll see.
Quote from: Witness on March 15, 2009, 04:54:13 PM
He and his family are greatly suffering the ravages of sin, as do many on Tentmaker
Care to expound ?
... are you not aware of the many illnesses and troublings that afflict many of your members here at tentmaker? take a walk through the "Prayer Room." you even wrote a number of the posts!
... this is not "black propaganda," peacemaker, it is the truth. see for yourself. you think the things recounted there demonstrate the blessing and abundant life promised by God?
Jesus said,
"I have come, that they may have life, and have it to the full." What God desires may be opposite to that of your own thinking. Paul in Galatians (5:22) writes about the fruit of the spirit being: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. To this we could include; purity, humility, modesty, character, wisdom, enthusiasm, dignity, optimism, confidence, honesty and mercy. This is what it means to have life in all its fullness. And, these things come from God, who is the giver of all good things.
The "abundant life" is free from selfishness, hatred, lust, unforgiveness, envy, jealousy, fear, drunkenness, sexual immorality, discord, anger, dishonesty, greed, gossiping, slander, pessimism and despair. Where love grows cold!
But the good news is that God can remove all of these negative characteristics from a person's life – as it is a matter of a heart condition.
BTW – one of my daughters has a genuine disability (
not a false demon from the imagination of men) and participates in Special Olympics, but this would be frowned upon by your mentors. Remember, I previously mentioned that I have consumed their entire writings, and in conclusion find their love for others to be artificial at best, and I am not talking about a Mardi Gras, but the product of their flesh! The medals these children receive are awarded for their attitudes, and faith for which they should be commended. One cannot esteem themselves!
"Words with an insinuating appearance are seldom associated with true virtue."
In humility consider others better than yourself!
peacemaker
:cloud9: Good word peacemaker.... :thumbsup: Because of my job, I got to take 3 handicapped women to the State Special Olympics one year, and it was one of the best experiences of my life. Just the sight of over 6000 joy-filled handicapped people was so humbling. They have much to be unhappy about, but most don't complain and give back so much more to us caregivers than we can ever give to them. Blessings....
aaah jabcat, I so wanted to know what Witness's answer was to my question about the Holy Spirit. Now I will never know if she would have picked "Paul C, or God. :happygrin: Rats. :winkgrin:
CHB
Quote from: Cardinal on March 18, 2009, 06:04:02 AM
They have much to be unhappy about, but most don't complain and give back so much more to us caregivers than we can ever give to them.
:giveheart: Unconditional Love!
Sara replies through Victor Hafichuk and Paul Cohen on their Website.
Please have the integrity to post the entire quotes, responses, and prayer of Peacemaker on your Website. Unless, you prefer to falsely mislead others.
You will find them at the following:
Reply #162
Reply #187
Reply #188
Reply #262
Reply #301
Including the Excerpts from the path of truth.com/falsehoodexposed/truemarkscult with commentary (see Reply #187)
Truth free from error!
Quote from: CHB on March 18, 2009, 04:56:02 PM
aaah jabcat, I so wanted to know what Witness's answer was to my question about the Holy Spirit. Now I will never know if she would have picked "Paul C, or God. :happygrin: Rats. :winkgrin:
CHB
Very good question, but do you think she would have really answered you? :Sparkletooth:
pm, can you explain a little further for the simple-minded (of which I am one)?
James, hope this answers your question.
Quote from: peacemaker on March 30, 2009, 07:57:18 AM
Sara replies through Victor Hafichuk and Paul Cohen on their Website.
Just a message for them based on their partial quotes of others.
I do not desire to email them, but may visit next time I am in Alberta, Canada.
"Lord willing!"As I am half Canadian.
ah, ok, TO them...i guess i thought i was supposed to be seeing something more there...thanks...