Introducing Myself

[Nathan]

Now, even though I've requested for them to stop . . .they won't stop emailing me their venom.  I came in this morning and found two more.  And I didn't respond to them yesterday, but yet they elected to try to swing at me again without provocation . . .what's with these guys???

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: What is even more disturbing to me, is it sounds like they're cursing those that they talk to, literally. :mshock: It's vile. Blessings....

[Nathan]

Here's the whole conversation . . .I'll try to keep it somewhat organized . . .My add in comments to tent are in purple . . .

NATHAN SAYS
I read about 10 lines of your response . . . then had to quit because this light you are convinced you have is reproducing nothing but death in others . . .
 
Have a great day.

THEIR RESPONSE

We know whereof we speak, Nathan, and we answer you as does He:

"Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I should say I do not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I know Him and I keep His Word" (John 8:54-55 MKJV).
Death is exactly what you need, by the cross, which is anathema to you and those who agree with you.
 
Victor

NATHAN'S RESPONSE
If you knew of what you speak, then your intent would not to be to induce death, but to illuminate life . . . it is not your responsibility to bring death to anyone.  As I said in my original message to you   . .Jesus didn't condemn . . .what makes you think you can?  I work out my own salvation . . . it's a "personal" experience . . .my salvation is not based on your standards . . . yet you still assume you have the right to enforce them.   You want to really convince me?  Then illuminate light . . .pointing out the darkness in others only reinforces what the enemy desires . . .   

THEIR RESPONSE
Nathan, how confused you are while presuming to have understanding! By the Nature of God, Light cannot help but be a reproof of darkness:
 
"But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the Light, for whatever makes manifest is Light" (Ephesians 5:13 MKJV).
 
You know nothing of our intent or what we do. How can you, when you are manifestly in darkness? You cannot be in the Light when you are found denying God's intrinsic and unalterable Nature. So is the Scripture fulfilled:
 
"And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not apprehend it" (John 1:5 EMTV).
 
This is where it's a little confusing because on the one, it was signed off as Victor . .don't know who that is . . .but the emails were coming from Paul . . .then . . .at the same time I'm getting those . . .I'm getting this from Victor's email himself . .carbon copied to Paul . . .it's like a tag team thing going on . . .

THEY SAID
The answers to these comments and questions are all in the letter I sent you, with our position proven of God, which letter you have ignorantly and arrogantly dismissed. So why bother repeating your comments and questions as though they were not answered? If you think dialogue should go only one way, from you, and you won't listen, then go your way and destroy yourself, Nathan.
 
I didn't respond . . I just deleted after a while . .but then their stuff kept coming . . .

Nathan, how confused you are while presuming to have understanding! By the Nature of God, Light cannot help but be a reproof of darkness:
 
"But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the Light, for whatever makes manifest is Light" (Ephesians 5:13 MKJV).
 
You know nothing of our intent or what we do. How can you, when you are manifestly in darkness? You cannot be in the Light when you are found denying God's intrinsic and unalterable Nature. So is the Scripture fulfilled:
 
"And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not apprehend it" (John 1:5 EMTV).

Again, I didn't respond . . .and again . .this is the latest one they sent . . .

He writhes and snarls, gnashing his teeth as he lays in his dark gutter, cursing the one who tries to lift him up out of his vomit and squalor.
 
Wretched fellow, presuming to lead others, as though he is better off than they. What arrogance! What ignorance! What presumption! What delusion!
 
And while he presumes to be fit to lead, he refuses to be led, thinking himself above the need for it.
 
Nathan, you know nothing at all of the Light of all men, and you refuse to know.

I will say this . . . the mods may or may not always get it right when they kick someone off . . .but in this case . . .their discernment was so dead on.  

[Nathan]

Actually, I left out my last response to them.  They were freaking out over this light/darkness thing . . .so this was the last of it . . .I'm sure I'll still be hearing from them . . .man's judgment has no end.

NATHAN'S LAST RESPONSE
See . .that's why you get the responses you get . . .all you're doing is judging others . .. you judge me and doom me to hell . . .Just because I disagree with how you approach things has nothing to do with me manifestly being in darkness . . .You're still flesh yourself . ..you're not going to always be right either, so I maintain my ability to disagree with you.

I never said the light can not reproof darkness . . .but I believe that the purpose of the light in me is to cast out the darkness in me . ..not in others . . .otherwise it's not a personal relationship. 

Either way, it's clear that we're not going to agree . .so save your emails for someone who will read them . . .because after this last response to you, I'm just going to delete them from here on out.

[Sarah]

He writhes and snarls, gnashing his teeth as he lays in his dark gutter, cursing the one who tries to lift him up out of his vomit and squalor.
 
Wretched fellow, presuming to lead others, as though he is better off than they. What arrogance! What ignorance! What presumption! What delusion!
 
And while he presumes to be fit to lead, he refuses to be led, thinking himself above the need for it.

I felt a hardness in the pit of my stomach when I read this. I believe this wasn't for you Nathan, but rather directed toward the one's mind it came out of.

[Nathan]

I'm not able to find that passage . . .is it a scripture at all?

[CHB]

Hi All,

Haven't been able to get back on the forum in two days because of, "this page cannot be displayed" problem that I can't figure out.


Anyway, I went on Paul C website and read the responses Paul gave to Nathan and Pneuma.

These men will never admit they are wrong on any thing. According to them they are always right because they think God has chosen them to know ALL truth and no one else has this knowledge and authority. I wonder if they think they are the two witnesses? There is something lacking in everyone that doesn't see things as they do. This is really scary. It sounds as if they would probably have no problem killing you thinking they do God justice. In their eyes they are the only ones justified in all things because God has chosen them. It is this type of thinking that killed Jesus and all of the disciples.

I feel sorry for these men and pray that God will send his spirit of grace and love into their hearts. It really burdens me to know there are people out there who prey on others and hold them in bondage. In a way this sounds worse than the attitudes of ET believers.

This is just what I see from reading their material and letters.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

Witness,

In case you overlooked my post asking you questions, I will ask them again.

Wouldn't attempting to work towards friendship be a more spiritual move?  Your question to me about being in the spirit was a reasonable one, so this is my responce to it.

What ideas do you have for such a thing? 

[Nathan]

I went to their site when it was first shared out here . .but I don't want to go back . . .especially now that I know they are taking aim at me personally . . . I've loved debating in the past . . . but that's a part of me that I don't feel is a part of God anymore . . .so I "try" not to get to involved in those types of discussions anymore . .it's one thing to clarify . . . but as far as debates go . .there is no actual end to them . . .only commercial breaks.  It's not very effective to use the Word of God as a defense for my doctrines while at the same time, using the Word of God to free the captive, heal the blind, deaf and lame . . .I choose to use the Worf primarily for the latter reasons only.

It does baffle me that they can be so harsh and claiming to be messengers of love.

[Paul Hazelwood]

It does baffle me that they can be so harsh and claiming to be messengers of love.

Well, that parts not baffling,  Jesus had very harsh words to the pharasees.  It appears that Paul and Victor come to the conclusion that we are pharasees.  So. giving the benefit of the doubt, it is reasonable.


Can we critisize Jesus for talking that way?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: No, and if it was Jesus speaking thru them, we wouldn't be criticizing them, either. Blessings....

[Paul Hazelwood]

We can all decide someone is a pharasee.  What is the criteria?

[peacemaker]

"I predict that most of their fallacy will not go away, despite refutations, dated this day!"

"The only difference between a rut of fallacy and the grave of truth, is the shallow soil of their understanding."

peacemaker

[jabcat]

As I see the Jesus/Pharisee issue, as well as other such POV's...again, I personally go to context, purpose, primary audiance...so my response is "that was Jesus",  and "they were the Pharisees"...we're neither.  I see it as what's expected of us, not what was "expected" of Jesus.  If we take the whole of the gospel, and not just a verse or two where Jesus rebuked the religious, IMO, we are to have a non-judging, loving attitude, even contending in love..."preferring one another".  (I think I know you a little bit, Paul H...you're trying to make us think, aren't you, you wascal?  :bigGrin:)  And I agree wrt the criteria...every little group could judge and find fault with the other...IMO, that's why we're NOT to judge each other harshly, and to let the wheats and tares grow together...while being on guard and seeking the truth ourselves...our own salvation with fear and trembling  :thumbsup:.

Nathan, that's what's I've seen out on the web...people feel harrassed by these folks.  And I agree very much with the debate thing...at some point we're wasting time and energy that can be spent on things more fruitful.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Who me?   :search:

[Witness]

i am replying in order from when I had my last big post here (#169).

james (jabcat), you said:

However, as a moderator, I clearly inform you that directly presuming to pass judgment on someone's salvation is considered a personal attack and is not allowed on the forum. 

if that's the definition of a personal attack, haven't you and others here been personally attacking me and paul and victor, since you have been accusing us as a cult?

james (reformer), you ask if I read your posts.  I had.  the first time I used the word "post," I was referring to the one wherein you talked about how much time and effort you put into your posts. the second time I used the word "post," I probably should have put that in the plural sense.

i agree that the authority of men of God is God Himself.  I never said or implied otherwise.  and you can't conclude from my posts that i am under the headship of usurpers, because I gave to "jabcat" (and all here) a clear testimony of what the Lord did for me, through the ministry of Victor and Paul.  no man can cast out devils without the power of the Lord.  and if, through listening and believing and following them as men of God, I was not only delivered from demons but also granted repentance and deliverance from my sins, why do you argue with that?  and I received the Holy Spirit with confirmation of His new life!

Mark 3:22-26 MKJV  And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, He has Beelzebub, and He casts out demons by the ruler of the demons.  (23)  And He called them and said to them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?  (24)  And if a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.  (25)  And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.  (26)  And if Satan rises up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end.

you ask me what part of "singleness" don't I understand and quote to me 2 Corinthians 11:2-4.  this is exactly what I have received!!!  Paul (apostle) said, "I betroth you...." he had that direct leadership position in which to lead others to Christ!  It has been the same for me.  And therefore I hear from God, directly, personally, and through others!  How else did I receive the holy Spirit and the deliverance that I have already described?  It was through God Who has been making me pure, bringing me to Himself!

james (reformer), you go on to say:

What determines who are bastards is in the mothers.  It is the same Father; but, is the mother Hagar or Sarah? 

this is not according to the Scriptures.

John 8:42-45 BBE  Jesus said to them, If God was your Father you would have love for me, because it was from God I came and am here. I did not come of myself, but he sent me.  (43)  Why are my words not clear to you? It is because your ears are shut to my teaching.  (44)  You are the children of your father the Evil One and it is your pleasure to do his desires. From the first he was a taker of life; and he did not go in the true way because there is no true thing in him. When he says what is false, it is natural to him, for he is false and the father of what is false.  (45)  But because I say what is true, you have no belief in me.

you say a virgin doesn't have other authorities, that she is free. how can you say that, when fathers are authorities over daughters (as you yourself acknowledge - and Paul's Scripture, which you quoted, does not deny, but even reinforces this) and men of God are authorities over the Church in general (you deny this last point - it stands nonetheless, for the Scriptures are true and cannot be denied).

one thing that I see as a common occurence here is that I quote Scriptures that directly contradict the position that there are no men of God over others, and many of you quote other Scriptures that you think override the ones that I quote. But the Scriptures I quote don't deny the scriptures you quote!  the Lord has made real to me the Whole Counsel of God in the Scriptures!  I don't find some to be applicable and some to be defunct... all of them apply!

reformer - james, you said:

"Antipas" means "against all."  Jesus calls him, "My faithful witness." 

according to Strong's, "Antipas" means "in place of a father." isn't that Christ's faithful witness, and isn't that what Paul said he was? 

1 Corinthians 4:14-16 KJV  I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.  (15)  For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.  (16)  Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

as for "against all," all people are against us, as Jesus said they would be.

Matthew 10:22 MKJV  And you will be hated of all men for My name's sake, but the one who endures to the end shall be kept safe.

i find your reply to be irrational, Cardinal, according to your own definition.

Paul h. you ask me if I am sharing these posts with paul Cohen.  yes, I am.

you also ask:

What do you think a solution to becoming friends here is?   Is finding that not a spiritual direction rather than one of the flesh?   Please be specific.

my purpose is not to become friends.  my purpose has been to ask about Paul being kicked off your forum, and to present some points and questions that I found to be very applicable.  (if there is anyone interested in the truth, we would naturally be friends.) since then, my point has been to answer those who are talking to me, bringing up various scriptures and comments that need to be answered.

Sarah, you could have red my introduction post wherein I described myself as a young woman. no big deal.

you wrote:

I think it is ironic that some here were dubbed as being the 'accuser of the brethern'. I'm also still wondering what Witness's goal is here; to tell us to repent from something, to expose a false teaching and if so repent of what and what false teaching?

i described my purpose above to paul Hazelwood.

CHB, you wrote:

Witness:
You mentioned all of the positions that were in the original Ekklesias in Paul's day. In Paul's day, all of these positions were necessary but today they are not. The reason I say this is, the Gospel had just began to be preached and Jesus had told them that this Gospel must be preached to the world. This was accomplished. Today, all we need is the Holy Spirit and God, nothing or no one else is necessary. Sure we can learn from others but we should NEVER put any one before God.

CHB

what you say is entirely unscriptural.  where did anyone say those Scriptures are gone now? you take away from yourself by taking away from the Word of God.

Revelation 22:18-19 GNB  I, John, solemnly warn everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: if any add anything to them, God will add to their punishment the plagues described in this book.  (19)  And if any take anything away from the prophetic words of this book, God will take away from them their share of the fruit of the tree of life and of the Holy City, which are described in this book.

I don't deny the postings you quoted, taffy, from Victor and paul.  i do deny the way you use them, however, for without the context, those comments seem unwarranted. if anyone wants applicable links from Paul and Victor's site, I can provide them (ask me).  the words you quoted from me were not actually said by me - I was quoting the summary from the john Calvin posting (found if you scroll down on the site under False Teachers... go to John calvin), because I was sharing that link with those who could benefit from hearing about his true ways and spirit.  everyone here would do well to heed Ingrid's words.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Witness, why is it you use them casting out devils as proof of their right standing with God? I'm sure you know the scripture, "Didn't we cast out devils in your Name?"

And further; Hebrews: 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, (the sole purpose of which is for prayer or for casting out devils) and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

All of these things mentioned above are in the inner court realm of priestly activities (read 5 fold here), and what neither you nor your headmasters realize is that there is a time when you leave it behind to be under the Lord DIRECTLY, with no middle men, because you no longer require the works of others to insure your obedience, you are obedient to Him because you only desire to do (works) that which pleases your Father.

There are 3 words in Greek in the NT that are translated into the same English word, but they mean, respectively; babes (outer court), young men (teenagers/inner court), and mature Son(s) (Holy of Holies). I've never seen a teenager yet that didn't rebel against some form of authority, and the "teenagers" you've got lording over you, are no exception. I hope for your sake, you set your eyes on Him like a flint. Blessings....

[Paul Hazelwood]

if there is anyone interested in the truth, we would naturally be friends.

I guess we are friends then.

[Nathan]

:cloud9: Witness, why is it you use them casting out devils as proof of their right standing with God? I'm sure you know the scripture, "Didn't we cast out devils in your Name?"

And further; Hebrews: 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, (the sole purpose of which is for prayer or for casting out devils) and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

All of these things mentioned above are in the inner court realm of priestly activities (read 5 fold here), and what neither you nor your headmasters realize is that there is a time when you leave it behind to be under the Lord DIRECTLY, with no middle men, because you no longer require the works of others to insure your obedience, you are obedient to Him because you only desire to do (works) that which pleases your Father.

There are 3 words in Greek in the NT that are translated into the same English word, but they mean, respectively; babes (outer court), young men (teenagers/inner court), and mature Son(s) (Holy of Holies). I've never seen a teenager yet that didn't rebel against some form of authority, and the "teenagers" you've got lording over you, are no exception. I hope for your sake, you set your eyes on Him like a flint. Blessings....

What a great word Card!!!  This has been heavy in my spirit for the past couple weeks now . . .I used it in last Sunday's message . . .actually it "was" the message.  It's a tough pill to swallow when you try to explain there is a whole other realm out there "beyond" the one of the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ . . . For me, it's where the weapons are transformed into plowshares "in us".  I referred briefly to this on another post . .the picture of David not being able to build a house for God . . .but God told him that He (God) would build a house for David.  And Moses could not take Israel into the primised land due to striking the rock twice.  It's a picture of the fact that the striking is connected to warfare/works and there is a time and place for it . .but there is also another realm of God where you can accomplish the same thing simply by calling it out, rather than laboring and fighting for it.

Just because we were told by God that we're to put on the weapons of warfare when we were younger in our relationship with him, doesn't mean that's the way it is for the rest of our lives.  It's just as Paul said about being a child . .when I was a child, I spoke, I acted as a child, but when I became a man . . .I PUT AWAY childish things.  There's no condemnation there, it's just a fact of life . . . you get older, you outgrow what got you there.

If people still choose to embrace those things . . .then I let them without any further attempts of clarification or consideration on this matter.  It's just not the season for them.  We're all in different levels of maturity in our relationship is all.  If everyone could see this, then there would be much less criticism of each other, and much more acceptance . .at least I would hope that would be the case. :bgdance:

[MacPherson]

Now, even though I've requested for them to stop . . .they won't stop emailing me their venom.  I came in this morning and found two more.  And I didn't respond to them yesterday, but yet they elected to try to swing at me again without provocation . . .what's with these guys???

Just send them this link:
WARNING: some might find this material disturbing. I know I did at first.
http://www.atruechurch.info/home.html

And make clear to them, according to Darwin Fish (real name) EVERYONE is a false teacher EXCEPT for Darwin Fish, and if you follow ANYONE other than Darwin Fish, you are going straight to Hell!

Go here for the rest of the story:

http://www.atruecult.info/dfishfaq.htm

This is an excellent expose on how this sort of mentality works.

[jabcat]

Card and Nate,

Beautiful word. 

Brother Brian, I haven't gone to the site, is it another place of condemnation I'd really be better off not going to?

[MacPherson]

Card and Nate,

Beautiful word. 

Brother Brian, I haven't gone to the site, is it another place of condemnation I'd really be better off not going to?

Actually yes. This stuck in my craw for a while, because I happened upon it right after I had my nervous breakdown. I'd go to the 2nd link, which gives the scoop on this person. But he's the epitome of the false teacher list makers. He says that he doesn't believe he's the only one with a correct interpretation of God's word, be he's the only one he knows of since the time of the Apostles. His right hand man, Al Soto, says on some discussion panel, which can be found on the 2nd link, quite clearly that if you/re not following Darwin Fish's theology you are going to hell. So, I think it would be fun to email these guys, and tell them the bad news i.e. give them a taste of their own medicine.

[MacPherson]

Oops! Hit the wrong button. Again.

[jabcat]

Wow...sometimes I don't use wisdom, but for me, I think it's a good idea to stay away from things such as that (groups that claim to have all the answers, and then condemn everyone else BASED ON THEIR OPINIONS.)  Whatever things are pure, honest, of a good report, etc., think on these things.  I need healing and help from Jesus' yoke upon me, not men trying to force their own ways  :thumbdown:.

[MacPherson]

Wow...sometimes I don't use wisdom, but for me, I think it's a good idea to stay away from things such as that (groups that claim to have all the answers, and then condemn everyone else BASED ON THEIR OPINIONS.)  Whatever things are pure, honest, of a good report, etc., think on these things.  I need healing and help from Jesus' yoke upon me, not men trying to force their own ways  :thumbdown:.

I try to avoid this sort of thing myself. I happened upon Fish's site when I looked up some info on Charles Stanley, and got his web page. Boy, did he take me for a ride for a little while.
But, especially after reading the expose, this guy now appears to me to be so over the top, he's like a parody of the original poster. But Fish is dead serious. And he has done extensive research. So the original poster, and any of his counterparts, better take heed. Because according to one of their own ilk, they are in the same soup they insist everyone on their list is in.