The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[thinktank]

:cloud9: Since it's literal to some, anybody ever notice how John was told to take the messages to the ANGELS of the 7 churches. How exactly does a man take a message to an angel? I'm just sayin'  :msealed:  Blessings...

The word angel can also be another way of saying saint. Since there are angels in existence according to scripture, then this does not make sense for a man to take a letter to the angel as you point out.

Read the gospel and you will find that Jesus is questionned concerning marriage

He replies

They neither marry or given in marriage they are as the Angels of heaven

Tony's reply can also be right too

So my interpretation would be something like this

take the messages to the ANGELS(Leaders/saints) of the 7 churches, no doubt he must have posted the letters to the leader in question

[Beloved Servant]

The manna is mixed into a milk drink for the children, boiled for the weak and baked for the strong.

[WhiteWings]

Whitewings I disagree with you that saints will die during the 1000 years of peace.

You could be right. The sinners is clear. Of the saints it's not said they live a 1000 years; but to be honest neither does it say they die within the 1000 years...

[thinktank]

God bless whitewings, keep searching the truth.

[Tony N]

Yes Molly.
Now my thought is that LoF is that fullars soap. Oops "looks like" sorry TonyN :-)
Jesus and the angels are watching for the people/gold to be tested/tormented in LoF.
For me it desribes a process that takes some time. Not a blink of an eye.
Also: the robes/gold is aware it's being processed.
IMO those verses tell us a bit about what LoF is like. It's function.

WW, I think you are confusing two different places as if they are one and the same. For instance, you state "Jesus and the angels are watching for the people in the LoF." I suppose you are saying that in regards to Revelation 14:10. That has to do with the city Babylon being destroyed whereas the lake of fire is unconscious death.

P.S. Rev.14:10 occurs prior to Christ setting up His 1000 year kingdom on the earth (Rev.20:4-7).

[WhiteWings]

WW, I think you are confusing two different places as if they are one and the same.

That's possible. But it's also possible I'm not confusing them. Even if things are not the the same it doesn't mean they can't be about the same. There are several Babylons in the Bible. Pure luck? Hidden meaning? For me being able a to prove a certain verse/chapter is about a literal historical event doesn't always prove that same event is also about a spiritual/future event.
What if all the Babylon verses are a huge parable?

[Tony N]

WW, I think you are confusing two different places as if they are one and the same.

That's possible. But it's also possible I'm not confusing them. Even if things are not the the same it doesn't mean they can't be about the same. There are several Babylons in the Bible. Pure luck? Hidden meaning? For me being able a to prove a certain verse/chapter is about a literal historical event doesn't always prove that same event is also about a spiritual/future event.
What if all the Babylon verses are a huge parable?

I only know of one Babylon in Revelation, a city.

Still, the city is destroyed prior to Christ setting up His millennial kingdom. The lake of fire is not created at that point in time so it can't be about people being tormented in the LoF.[/quote]

[Nathan]

I see this referenced frequently and I just want to put out there that I'm not one that sees the thousand year issue as a literal thousand year anything.  I beleive it's symbolic as is all of Revelation.  I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ coincides with the tabernacle of Moses in that it was a type and shadow of the nature of Christ where as John recieved the Revelation "of" Jesus Christ.  They go hand in hand.

So for me, the thousand years signifies the Holy of Holies, it's not a literal span of time, but it's a realm of the spirit.  It's where God resides.  The dimensions of the holy of holies was 10x10x10 . . .which is a natural sign pointing to a spiritual truth.  Just as all  Scripture reflects the same principle

The book of revelation does have symbolic symbols, but it is not a highly symbolic book that no one can understand it. Some of the things pointed in it do require a great amount of study, but other things are to be read as it is. E.g John of Patmos is not a fictional character, he is real. The letters he wrote are real and they were sent in history, but yet the letters are also for the end time church, which clearly can be seen due to the word great tribulation within the letters. This word 'great tribulation' was used by Jesus to describe the end times. The book of Ezekiel is also a book that described events during the time of babylon and also it is written in mind for the end times and is a complimentary study with the book of revelation.
When it comes to the end times the books to study are the book of Daniel, probably the best to study for a newbie, the book of revelation, the book of Ezekiel (Even harder to understand than revelation, due to God using old testament place names to describe modern day nations). the book of Isiah has some prophecies and also the gospels of Jesus Christ, especially the book of Mathew.

Because of the huge amount of detail in revelation the author described events using symbols, these symbols are coded and found throughout the bible, you've heard the phrase the bible interprets the bible.
So the lamb of God that opens the books is obviously, Jesus Christ.
John the baptist said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world.
I make an example of the lamb symbol because it is the easiest. The other symbols take more study, but if one takes a look at the dragon is revelation 12, one can see that this is describing Satan.
If one denies that John was not in heaven on the lords day, then one is denying the scriptures and end up making up all kinds of conclusions based on mans ways not Gods. e.g some people think, the dragon is a representative of China, for that is their national symbol, but now they are relying on man made symbols to interpret, Gods symbols. Some might say the dragon represents, The devil cult (I made that up) because this cult has a dragon symbol and when the people meet they, place their fingers on top of their heads like a devil. By relying on methods like these, people are coming up with all kinds of crazy ideas. The book of revelation was supposed to be written to help the saints, not confuse them. God is not the author of confusion, but has written all things for good.

And one more thing the identity of the antichrist and various evil organizations are described in the book of revelation, this makes it of most importance that only spirit filled saints can understand this book, or otherwise perhaps the evil would have banned the book.

You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent but have made known your mysteries unto the meek and lowly.

It may be just me here, but it looks like you contradicted yourself in stating that first, Revelation isn't that difficult to understand . . .then you end it with a quote implying that it's a mystery.  I understand the verse is stating the mysteries are made known to meek and lowly, but that's not what your comments imply and it's not what you stated.  You stated that the mysterious things take a lot of "study".  The verse you quoted isn't really emphasizing study, but for me "made known" is the same as saying "revealed". 

I also understand Jesus refered to Great Tribulation, Ezekiel and Daniel . . .a lot of prophesies were about these same things happening.  But Revelation also points out, in the last chapter, that the book was not to be sealed . . in Daniel, it was to be sealed because it wasn't time for the things to take place . . .but Revelation says just the opposite.

Even though, from the time Daniel wrote it to when John wrote it . . .it was only about 500 years, roughly.  Yet when since John wrote what he saw, it's been two thousand.  Now, why would Daniel's part be sealed due to it not being time yet, and John's left open for the "time is at hand" . . . if all the things John wrote weren't supposed to happen for another 2000 years?

All things written were literal.  I agree . .there was a John, there was an Island called Patmos.  And the message brought to John . . .oddly enough, the messenger said nothing to John about documenting these things as they were going to happen in generations to come.  It was and still is, a revelation, an unveiling of Jesus.  How is it the church has gotten itself all caught up in the doom and gloom of this earth when the messenger clearly stated it is a revelation of Jesus. 

Jesus message was all about turning the other cheek, forgive one another, go the extra mile . . and then as people read Revelation, they seem to walk away from everything Jesus preached and return to the Old Covenant mindsets where God is jealous and destructive when he doesn't get his way.

Lastly . . Patmos . . .it literally means "place of my killing".  God using a natural island to reveal a spiritual principle of what it takes to enter into the kingdom.  It's not about death to men, but death to the man in men.

As to the definition of death . . .Strongs puts it this way . . .
1) the death of the body

a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended

b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell

1) the power of death

c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin

2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,

a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell

3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell

4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

So "separation" is very much a part of it's definition.  It just depends on how one "choose" to perceive it's application.

[Tony N]

Nathan, do you think Paul built up to such a grand point in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 that the last enemy to be abolished is just a figure of speech? In other words, is the Christ going to abolish a figure of speech?

[Nathan]

I can't seem to make sense of your last sentence Tony.  But nevertheless . . .for me, resurrection is the proof that death as we know it here has been overcome.  This is why I've stated before and will now again that things in "this" realm are still governed by time . . .including death.  But in the spirit, all things are already completed and finished . . .you cut your passage off at verse 26 . . .yet 27 seems to state that it's already been done as well.

27For he "has put everything under his feet."[

[thinktank]

It may be just me here, but it looks like you contradicted yourself in stating that first, Revelation isn't that difficult to understand . . .then you end it with a quote implying that it's a mystery.  I understand the verse is stating the mysteries are made known to meek and lowly, but that's not what your comments imply and it's not what you stated.  You stated that the mysterious things take a lot of "study".  The verse you quoted isn't really emphasizing study, but for me "made known" is the same as saying "revealed".  

I also understand Jesus refered to Great Tribulation, Ezekiel and Daniel . . .a lot of prophesies were about these same things happening.  But Revelation also points out, in the last chapter, that the book was not to be sealed . . in Daniel, it was to be sealed because it wasn't time for the things to take place . . .but Revelation says just the opposite.

Even though, from the time Daniel wrote it to when John wrote it . . .it was only about 500 years, roughly.  Yet when since John wrote what he saw, it's been two thousand.  Now, why would Daniel's part be sealed due to it not being time yet, and John's left open for the "time is at hand" . . . if all the things John wrote weren't supposed to happen for another 2000 years?

All things written were literal.  I agree . .there was a John, there was an Island called Patmos.  And the message brought to John . . .oddly enough, the messenger said nothing to John about documenting these things as they were going to happen in generations to come.  It was and still is, a revelation, an unveiling of Jesus.  How is it the church has gotten itself all caught up in the doom and gloom of this earth when the messenger clearly stated it is a revelation of Jesus.  

Jesus message was all about turning the other cheek, forgive one another, go the extra mile . . and then as people read Revelation, they seem to walk away from everything Jesus preached and return to the Old Covenant mindsets where God is jealous and destructive when he doesn't get his way.

Lastly . . Patmos . . .it literally means "place of my killing".  God using a natural island to reveal a spiritual principle of what it takes to enter into the kingdom.  It's not about death to men, but death to the man in men.

As to the definition of death . . .Strongs puts it this way . . .
1) the death of the body

a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended

b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell

1) the power of death

c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin

2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,

a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell

3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell

4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

So "separation" is very much a part of it's definition.  It just depends on how one "choose" to perceive it's application.
[/quote]



O cmon the bible is full of contradictions, you should be used to it :thumbsup:

Such as God never tempts a man

So God tempted Abraham

If one wants to be clever and a critic one can say here is a contradiction, it cannot be inspired. But if one looks deeper and earnestly seeks, one can see that Gods temptation of Abraham did not follow through, and his son was not harmed. But Satans temptation on the other hand his goal is to follow through, with murder for example.

When I say revelation is  not that difficult to understand I am arguing against people who say it is impossible to make sense of and therefore irrelevant to study. I also say it is a mystery because it requires the help of Gods spirit to reveal some of the truths and in order to get Gods help sometimes one must study for a long time to receive revelation, because as I said if one only studies revelation, then how would one know what a lamb is, unless one also studies the gospels, where Jesus Christ is called the lamb of God. So studying revelation one needs also to study the rest of the bible.

As for Daniels book being sealed and Revelation, that is a tough question, but I would say that John of Patmos was in the Lord's day therefore he actually witnessed the events taking place, so if what he experienced was in real-time, then in that curent time frame, the books would not be sealed. I could go on but thats all im going to say about that.

As for the doom and gloom, taking place, this is Gods judgment upon man that has been warned about repeateadly in Jesus ministry. The sins of man are becoming more and more toxic and during the time of the great tribulation, the sins have reached an epic scale, similar to that of Sodom and Gomorah, babylon, egypt and Noahs day, these places were all heavilly judged by God and made desolate. It is tough but God tells us to rejoice when mystery babylon is judged for she has been avenged. I think we all sometimes desire vengeance upon the wicked and during this time, we will have what the rightoeus want.
Are we not told, not to take vengeance with our own hand but to commit righteous judgment to him that knows best?

ps
Interesting find about Patmos

[Nathan]

For me, revelation doesn't come through study, it comes through relationship with the Son.  It's a Peter experience.  "Who do "you" say that I am??"  Jesus states there flesh and blood didn't reveal to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah.  Peter had a revealtion of Jesus and it didn't come through study, it came through relationship.

I'm not sure I follow your answer to "the time is at hand" being a spiritual principle so that it could still mean it would happen thousands of years later.

I believe ALL of this in the revelation of Jesus is pertaining to what was stated in Hebrews pertaining to a new priest hood being established.  But in order for the lineage of Melchezedek to manifest as a new order, the old system had to be removed.  Israel was not willing to give it up.  Instead, they crucified Christ and embraced their religion.  They set themselves up . . .destruction was coming to the religious system.  "That" is the end of the age Scripture constantly referred to. 

The things Matthew 24 speaks of, which is directly connected to Revelation and Daniel, are things that were coming as a result of Israel embracing an old system that was no longer in place.  So yeah, judgment came as God cleansed the land.  But to say certain things did come yet other things are yet to happen two thousand years later . .for me . .is saying more than what Scripture is saying. 

The things coming "at hand" meant they had already started at the time of the writing.  The book was to be left open because the things declared in it were already happening. 

I'm not sure I can agree with the double judgment thing either.  My mind does not have the capacity to see things from an elevated state. But the things written came from above.  So how can I learn spiritual principles when my mind only operates through natural means?  For me the answer is, walk in the "spirit" of what's being said. 

The contradictions are not from Scripture cntradicting itself, they are from my mind's percecption of what one passage is saying over another.  This is why, I do read, I ponder, but I cringe at "study" because for me, it implies to rely on my mind's abilities to learn facts and more information "about" something rather than my being "experiencing" truth that lies beneath what's being said.

I've said this one before as well, but the Pharisees were reknown for their disciplinary rituals in studying the word . . and look how that turned out for them. 

For me, God's judgment is not punishment.  My workds being judged are not "you did this well and that, not so much . . ."  But for me, everything comes through the cross.  On the one hand, we quote Paul "it's not I but Christ in me . . .the actions where I fail at something isnt' me, but the sin in me . . ."  And on the other hand we claim God is going to judge us for "our" works?

How can God work in me both to will AND TO DO his good pleasure, and yet turn around and judge me for the works . . .that HE is doing??

[thinktank]

For me, revelation doesn't come through study, it comes through relationship with the Son.  It's a Peter experience.  "Who do "you" say that I am??"  Jesus states there flesh and blood didn't reveal to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah.  Peter had a revealtion of Jesus and it didn't come through study, it came through relationship.


I've said this one before as well, but the Pharisees were reknown for their disciplinary rituals in studying the word . . and look how that turned out for them. 

The letter killeth but the lord giveth life
Paul

My word is meat indeed

That you may grow with the milk of the word
Jesus says to Pharisse
You search the scriptures and think that in them you have life, but you refuse to come to me

Peter says something like
That you may be born again through the incorruptuple word of God

Also not all Pharisses were blind to Christ, some of them gave old testament revelation concerning Christ

I think the message is, study the word for food and the holy spirit, stimulates that word and makes it grow. Without the holy spirit the word becomes deadened. Christ talks about the word being a seed that is planted, some went by the wayside, some was stolen by Satan and some were cast into stony rock unable to grow.

[Tony N]

I can't seem to make sense of your last sentence Tony. 

OOPS, here it is corrected:
"In other words, is the Christ going to abolish a figure of speech?"

Nathan wrote:But nevertheless . . .for me, resurrection is the proof that death as we know it here has been overcome.  This is why I've stated before and will now again that things in "this" realm are still governed by time . . .including death.  But in the spirit, all things are already completed and finished . . .you cut your passage off at verse 26 . . .yet 27 seems to state that it's already been done as well.

That "for He subjects all" is just in the aorist mood and shows a timeless fact such as "God loves the world" in John 3:16.

We know He has not subjected all yet becaause we see not all are subject.

27For he "has put everything under his feet."

1Co 15:25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
1Co 15:27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him."

[Nathan]

Two birds with one stone . . .maybe . ..

TT, the passages you quoted are exactly my point.  The Pharisees were the most literal religious group there ever was.  They wouldn't move an inch without the Scriptures telling them to.  Ears that can't hear . . .eyes that can't see . .see and hear what?  We read the Scriptures with our natural minds and apply the principles with our natural reasoning, yet we only result in making religious noise.

It's kind of what Tony and I are speaking about here as well. I'm saying in the spirit all things are complete even though in the natural everything goes through due process.  He's saying because it says  . .according to the letter of the Scriptures . . . death has not yet been over come.  I'm saying "if" death wasn't overcome, how could there then be a resurrection?

Spiritually, it's all done.  It's finished.  there is nothing left that needs to be done.  But in this realm, I agree, current state is incomplete. 

But my question is, are we to walk in current state, or in finished works?  Can we not see the end from the beginning when stepping into the spirit in our own lives?  For me, to walk in the current state is to walk according to the flesh.  To walk in finished state is to walk in the spirit. 

Am I saved?  Or am I being saved?  Answer?  Yes.  My spirit has been resurrected from beneath the control of my flesh.  Yet my soul continues to experience the process of trials and tribulation in this life, bringing it into the fulness of the redemptive work of the cross.

The revelation of Jesus is not an outward timeline of judgment of man and earth.  It's an inward revelation of the illuminating glory of God that resides in us all.  There is a bottomless pit in us all, there is a Great Babylon in us all . . there is Great Tribulation in  us all, but the carnality in us has been overcome by the blood of the Lamb. 

For me, reading Scripture inwardly has so much more liberation to it than laboring against another in the attempt to either discredit the claims the mind of another makes or to try to justify to another's mind what has spiritually been discerned.  Revelation was used as  a hymn book in the first century . . .yet look at what our generation has turned it into. 

Somewhere between when it was written and now as it's being read, someone shifted the emphasis of life in a whole other direction.  I believe God is bringing it all back around, for the purpose to do what he's always done, to bring glory to his Son as His Son brings glory back to Him.

Tony, to your question about abolishing figure of speeches . . I would have to say no.  Not in this realm.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: As a side note, I personally think the angel that spoke these things to John, WAS Daniel. It was time for that which Daniel sealed, to be opened. My  :2c: Blessings....

[thinktank]

That could be interesting cardinal, I'll have a chew of that.

[Nathan]

I'm not so sure . ..I think what was sealed only Christ could open and he did that when he said this . . .


Matthew 24
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

I believe this was where that which was once sealed was now reopenned. 

[Molly]

:cloud9: As a side note, I personally think the angel that spoke these things to John, WAS Daniel. It was time for that which Daniel sealed, to be opened. My  :2c: Blessings....

wow

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, Nathan you could consider it, Daniel-as-one-with Christ, because the angel said he was one of his fellow servants, the PROPHETS. And doesn't that open up some interesting discussion about interaction between "ages" in that cloud of witnesses? Blessings.....

[Molly]

:cloud9: Well, Nathan you could consider it, Daniel-as-one-with Christ, because the angel said he was one of his fellow servants, the PROPHETS. And doesn't that open up some interesting discussion about interaction between "ages" in that cloud of witnesses? Blessings.....

And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world--from east and west--and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven.

--Mat 8:11

[Nathan]

I'm still not convinced of the possibility there.  Granted, I'm not one who hangs on to literal implications so when it describes "angel" bringing the message, I'm not one who envisions a being with wings and harps floating around but rather it's an avenue through which spiritual messages flow.  There are strong angels, mighty angels, named angels and unnamed angels, but at the same time, there's no indication where dead people become messengers to other men in this form as we see in Revelation. And there's really no indication by what's written that Daniel is the one delivering the message to John.

Even when Peter, James and John saw Jesus transform into his glorified state, they "saw" Moses and Elijah . . .but how would they know it was Moses or Elijah?  Did they have a polaroid in their pocket?  No, I beleive of course that it was spiritually revealed to them who they were.  Not because they became angels, but because of what they symbolized. 

Jesus was fulfilling the law and the prophets and I think God brought that home when he jumped in and thundered his declaration that Jesus was his beloved and we should hear him "only".  The law and the prophets were only fore-runners pronouncing the coming of the Christ.  But once Jesus was there, the law and the prophets were no longer necessary.

Which for me, is why the law was temporary.  It was only the pronouncment of the coming of Christ.  Once Christ came, the law was then fulfilled and no longer necessary to be in effect.  But that's a whole other issue from Daniel being the one to deliver the message to John.  If it were Daniel, would not John have had the same revelation that he had when he saw Moses and Elijah?  Yet there's no indication of this.

But most importanly is the one worthy to break open the seals . . .what Daniel "saw" in his vision, was the manifestation of the effect the opening of the seals had on Israel.  But he himself was not the one found worthy to do the opening.  That role is solely up to the Lamb who had been slain. 

This isn't a huge deal really, I'm just saying I'm not seeing what you're implying.

[Molly]

 8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

--Rev 22

[Tony N]

:cloud9: Well, Nathan you could consider it, Daniel-as-one-with Christ, because the angel said he was one of his fellow servants, the PROPHETS. And doesn't that open up some interesting discussion about interaction between "ages" in that cloud of witnesses? Blessings.....

Dear Cardinal, Daniel has been dead for thousands of years now. He is not alive in some other form.
The "cloud of witnesses" you speak of are the witnesses to the faith who died earlier. They were not alive in some other form when the writer of Hebrews wrote that.

The Bible says The dead know nothing.

And this is just one more reason those in the second death cannot learn or be purified because they are in death, unconscious death. They know nothing while in that death.

[Nathan]

:cloud9: Well, Nathan you could consider it, Daniel-as-one-with Christ, because the angel said he was one of his fellow servants, the PROPHETS. And doesn't that open up some interesting discussion about interaction between "ages" in that cloud of witnesses? Blessings.....

Dear Cardinal, Daniel has been dead for thousands of years now. He is not alive in some other form.
The "cloud of witnesses" you speak of are the witnesses to the faith who died earlier. They were not alive in some other form when the writer of Hebrews wrote that.

The Bible says The dead know nothing.

And this is just one more reason those in the second death cannot learn or be purified because they are in death, unconscious death. They know nothing while in that death.

Not to purposely argue, but Tony, I'm not seeing death in that light either.  I understand you're basing your doctrine on an Old Testament passage and perhaps that may have been it's intention even then, but I'm not so sure of that either really. 

Samuel was brought back to life in spirit to Saul through a soothsayer . . .if there is no knowledge in death, then how is it that Samuel could prophecy the demise of Saul?  It's not fitting for me at all.  And Paul states that he's either here in body, or when this body gives out, he'll be with Christ in spirit . .there's no indication there either of a life in dormancy . . .nor does that really follow the principles of the nature of God.

There's no pattern established for that line of thought to be supported.  I'm not sure I understand your rendition of that cloud of witnesses Hebrews 12:1 speaks of . . .but for me, it is indeed the saints who've gone on before us.  It's their spirits that once inhabited bodies of flesh.  And if they are surrounding us, encouraging us to press on . .that doesn't sound like a state of nothingness to me either.