The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[Tony N]

God does not want the dead fouling up His new earth for the eon.

They are there,-- they are just kept out of the holy city.


15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--Rev 22

Hi Molly, if you will look at 22:8 you will notice the vision has ended. John is now back to his own time zone if you will and from 22:8 is relating to the Jews their current status when John wrote Revelation.
In 21:8, in the vision, during the future John saw, such people in 22:15 will have their part in the lake of fire, the second death. But for now, such people are getting away with their sins. At least that is how I see it.

[WhiteWings]

I know exactly what you said. I also exactly know how you avoid questions and twist answers.
Look I don't blame you for having no answers but please don't act as if you them.

:happygrin: :laughing7: :happy3: :happygrin: :laughing7:
LOL! He he!, Okey dokey! Whatever! LOL!

Was it that hard to admit?
Enough time wasted....
Does anyone care to answer my questions Tony dodged while pushing his agenda?

[Molly]

God does not want the dead fouling up His new earth for the eon.

They are there,-- they are just kept out of the holy city.


15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--Rev 22

Hi Molly, if you will look at 22:8 you will notice the vision has ended. John is now back to his own time zone if you will and from 22:8 is relating to the Jews their current status when John wrote Revelation.
In 21:8, in the vision, during the future John saw, such people in 22:15 will have their part in the lake of fire, the second death. But for now, such people are getting away with their sins. At least that is how I see it.

Rev 21:8  Yes, I see that.  It's referring to the same people.


8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
--Rev 21


These people are both having their part in the lake of fire and are outside of the New Jerusalem--the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, [Rev 21:10] --.the Lamb's wife [Rev 21:9]



23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

--Gen 2



Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

[Tony N]

I know exactly what you said. I also exactly know how you avoid questions and twist answers.
Look I don't blame you for having no answers but please don't act as if you them.

:happygrin: :laughing7: :happy3: :happygrin: :laughing7:
LOL! He he!, Okey dokey! Whatever! LOL!

Was it that hard to admit?
Enough time wasted....
Does anyone care to answer my questions Tony dodged while pushing his agenda?

What questions did you specifically ask me which I did not answer? Maybe I missed them?

And what specifically is my agenda? LOL!

[Cardinal]

I see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death.

:cloud9:This is what I was seeing; the ACT OF throwing things in the LOF is the second death, not the LOF itself being death. Blessings...

And some people see the virgin Mary is a pancake.

The Bible says the lake of fire produces death. Death is the complete absence of life.

The bible does not say the act of throwing those not in the book of life into the lake of fire is the second death. Your imagination is running away. It just says the lake of fire is the second death (period).

Remember, death is the absence of life.

:cloud9: Obviously, death is NOT ONLY defined as the complete absence of life, or Jesus would not have said let the dead bury the dead.

Question: How does that work if the literally dead are thrown into the LOF, since they already (according to your take on it), had a complete absence of life? What then is left to kill with death?

Or do you think they are literally alive, then thrown into the LOF?Blessings...

[WhiteWings]

You answer every/most question with: dead=dead=absense of life.
I agree with that. We also agreed that there is physical and spiritual life.
So just saying LoF is death isn't an answer I accept without proof of some kind.
If the verse speaks about death; what death? Death of what?
Body? Spirit? Something else? And no matter the answer what gave you that idea? Verse, parable, book, ....?

My view (I'm strongly considering) is that LoF is not a pool of death. I look at verses that add "with fire and brimstone".
Word meanings that link fire and brimstone to purification, holiness, etc. Or quite a few verses like "refiners fire".
Articles found on the main TM site by for example Preston Eby also point to more than just destruction/death.
Yeah death/destruction of the old sinful nature.
I can't just ignore all that info and views just because you keep repeating dead=dead.
There is even a verse that proves death does not (always) equal all absense of life.
"Let the dead bury the dead." Those dead, unless zombies, were lively enough to dig holes  :laughing7:
So the death in that verse was only about the spiritual part. Not a package deal. That's another reason I don't just accept death is a package deal when cast in LoF.

And what specifically is my agenda? LOL!

Using this thread as a blog. Not for a really discussing anything that's not your view.

[Beloved Servant]

"Using this thread as a blog. Not for a really discussing anything that's not your view."

Perhaps TonyN would selflessly like to request a private thread so as not to consume the whole Tentmaker discussion board with a single topic for such a long period of time.

[Tony N]

You answer every/most question with: dead=dead=absense of life.
I agree with that. We also agreed that there is physical and spiritual life.
So just saying LoF is death isn't an answer I accept without proof of some kind.
If the verse speaks about death; what death? Death of what?
Body? Spirit? Something else? And no matter the answer what gave you that idea? Verse, parable, book, ....?

My view (I'm strongly considering) is that LoF is not a pool of death. I look at verses that add "with fire and brimstone".
Word meanings that link fire and brimstone to purification, holiness, etc. Or quite a few verses like "refiners fire".
Articles found on the main TM site by for example Preston Eby also point to more than just destruction/death.
Yeah death/destruction of the old sinful nature.
I can't just ignore all that info and views just because you keep repeating dead=dead.
There is even a verse that proves death does not (always) equal all absense of life.
"Let the dead bury the dead." Those dead, unless zombies, were lively enough to dig holes  :laughing7:
So the death in that verse was only about the spiritual part. Not a package deal. That's another reason I don't just accept death is a package deal when cast in LoF.

Tony's reply:
The death of a person is the death of that whole person. "The spirit returns to God Who gave it." "The body returns to soil from which it came" and "the soul returns to the unseen." In this case the body turns to ashes from the fire and most likely those ashes go into the soil?

If someone is saying that the explanation of a figure demands to be something other than what the divine explanation is then I would view it with real suspicion. The phrase "the lake of fire is the second death" does not say "the lake of fire is the second death and death is spiritual death." Nor does it say: "The lake of fire is the second death and the death is of the old sinful nature." Do you see what they are doing? They are making the answer to the figure other than what the answer is.

Here is another example of a figure and God's explanation of that figure such as "water":
Rev 17:15 And he is saying to me, "These waters which you perceived, where the prostitute is sitting, are peoples and throngs and nations and languages."
Now you are not supposed to make "peoples" something other than what we know peoples to be. We are not suppose to make "peoples" be "spiritual aardvarks" like people make "death" to be "spiritual death" or whatever. And we are not supposed to make "nations" be something other than what common sense tells us and "languages" something other than what it is. So the lake of fire is the second death, death is the answer to what the lake of fire is.

The death spoken of in Revelation as it pertains to the lake of fire is for those not to be having life. How do I know? Because their names are not in the book of those who will be enjoying life on the new earth. Does that make sense? Do I need to quote the exact book, chapter and verse for that to satisfy you?
Even where it is written "Let the dead bury the dead" the first "dead" in that verse is concerning those who have a complete absense of life to God and His Son.

When Lazarus was dead four days he stunk. He was not "spiritually dead." He was experiencing the absence of life.

The widow of Paul's letter to Timothy was "though living is dead" (1 Tim.5:6). She was dead to God. Her death to God was a complete absence of life to God. She did not have a life of living to God. Get it?

And what specifically is my agenda? LOL!

WW replied: Using this thread as a blog. Not for a really discussing anything that's not your view.

You must have me confused with someone else. I'm not using this thread as a blog.
And I have been discussing with all of you your views. Just because I think your views concerning the lake of fire is all wet (pun intended)  :laughing7: doesn't mean I have to talk like you to converse with you.

Now then, did I run from your questions or did I answer them?

[Molly]

When Lazarus was dead four days he stunk. He was not "spiritually dead." He was experiencing the absence of life.

Hi Tony, his body was physically dead, but Jesus tells us he was asleep.

11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

--John 11


"sleepeth"


G2837
κοιμάω
koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.



G2749
κειμαι
keimai
ki'-mahee
Middle voice of a primary verb; to lie outstretched (literally or figuratively): - be (appointed, laid up, made, set), lay, lie. Compare G5087.

[WhiteWings]

You answer every/most question with: dead=dead=absense of life.
I agree with that. We also agreed that there is physical and spiritual life.
So just saying LoF is death isn't an answer I accept without proof of some kind.
If the verse speaks about death; what death? Death of what?
Body? Spirit? Something else? And no matter the answer what gave you that idea? Verse, parable, book, ....?

My view (I'm strongly considering) is that LoF is not a pool of death. I look at verses that add "with fire and brimstone".
Word meanings that link fire and brimstone to purification, holiness, etc. Or quite a few verses like "refiners fire".
Articles found on the main TM site by for example Preston Eby also point to more than just destruction/death.
Yeah death/destruction of the old sinful nature.
I can't just ignore all that info and views just because you keep repeating dead=dead.
There is even a verse that proves death does not (always) equal all absense of life.
"Let the dead bury the dead." Those dead, unless zombies, were lively enough to dig holes  :laughing7:
So the death in that verse was only about the spiritual part. Not a package deal. That's another reason I don't just accept death is a package deal when cast in LoF.

Tony's reply:
The death of a person is the death of that whole person. "The spirit returns to God Who gave it." "The body returns to soil from which it came" and "the soul returns to the unseen." In this case the body turns to ashes from the fire and most likely those ashes go into the soil?

Only if you view LoF as real fire. I'm not so sure about that. I edge to something symbolic.

If someone is saying that the explanation of a figure demands to be something other than what the divine explanation is then I would view it with real suspicion.

I agree with that. But things are not always that simple. The good Shepard parable isn't really about sheep. And the actual number isn't 100 either. So I guess it depends largely on what you think LoF is. If the answer is something symbolic then about everything can have a hidden meaning. But of course whatever view one has it has to be supported by verses. That goes without saying.

The phrase "the lake of fire is the second death" does not say "the lake of fire is the second death and death is spiritual death." Nor does it say: "The lake of fire is the second death and the death is of the old sinful nature." Do you see what they are doing? They are making the answer to the figure other than what the answer is.

No it doesn't say that. But it's Jesus Himself
that makes it a valid consideration. For a atheist it's clear. Dead=dead. End of story.
But Jesus Himself introduced separate deaths => dead burry the dead.
Something that can't be just ignored to make understanding of a certain view easier.
Personally I prefer to conclude I have no idea of what LoF exactly is than ignoring verses to reach an easy conclusion...

The death spoken of in Revelation as it pertains to the lake of fire is for those not to be having life. How do I know? Because their names are not in the book of those who will be enjoying life on the new earth. Does that make sense? Do I need to quote the exact book, chapter and verse for that to satisfy you?

No that's a good answer. I know the verses about the book of life.
Let me start with saying the people whose names are not written in the book of life are missing out on a glorious period. So I think we have agreement on that. But does that mean they are completely dead? Someone that's in prison isn't dead but still is missing lots joys related to life outside of jail.

Even where it is written "Let the dead bury the dead" the first "dead" in that verse is concerning those who have a complete absense of life to God and His Son.

How will those people come back to life again? Some instant conversion like Saul/Paul or perhaps a longer period? Could that period be in LoF.

When Lazarus was dead four days he stunk. He was not "spiritually dead." He was experience the absence of life.

The question is; it that the same type of death as LoF. LoF seems some kind of endgame in the big masterplan. I'm not yet convinced it's just very dead death.

Now then, did I run from your questions or did I answer them?

Yes. They are good and clear answers :thumbsup:
Not that I'm convinced all answers are correct. But that's not what I want or ask.

Question: Do you thing the fire in LoF is real literal fire? The ET type of fire.

[Tony N]

When Lazarus was dead four days he stunk. He was not "spiritually dead." He was experiencing the absence of life.

Hi Tony, his body was physically dead, but Jesus tells us he was asleep.

11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
--John 11

"Sleep" is a euphemism for death. Abraham slept with his fathers means he croaked, kicked the bucket, or whatever else you want to call it. Lazarus was in the sleep of death. It wasn't like he was literally just fallen asleep.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You haven't answered mine yet, but here's another. What then did it mean when it was said of the damsel, "she's NOT DEAD, she sleepeth"? Blessings.....

[Tony N]

ww asked:
Question: Do you think the fire in LoF is real literal fire? The ET type of fire.

Was the sword which came out of Jesus' mouth a literal sword?

Were the waters John saw literal waters or did they stand for nations?

Is the Lamb a literal lamb or does it represent the literal Christ?

Does Elmer Fudd have a problem pronouncing the letter 'R'?  :laughing7: O.K. my bad.

I believe this lake of fire is symbolic and, as the sword represents the words coming out of Christ's mouth which will literally slay His opponenents, and the waters represent literal nations, thus the lake of fire is representative of actual, literal death. That is the best I can do for now.

[Tony N]

:cloud9: You haven't answered mine yet, but here's another. What then did it mean when it was said of the damsel, "she's NOT DEAD, she sleepeth"? Blessings.....

I guess we just have to believe the Good Doctor's appraisal of the situation, no?

Here in Michigan, in the 1800's there is a recorded event of a man who was eating with his family and he passed out face first into his plate of food. They thought he had died. There was no pulse. They laid him out on the living room table a day or two later for the viewing. Friends and relatives and family all came from miles around and were in the living room. Suddenly he came out of it, sat up and asked in a loud voice: "What's going on?" According to the account people were so scared they went running out of the room and out of the house. As it turned out he was taking some medication which slowed his heart down so slowly that they couldn't get a pulse.

Obviously they couldn't get a pulse on the girl and thought she had died but she was sleeping in the sense she was unconscious.

[WhiteWings]

^KJVLuk 8:52-55 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

What does "came again" exactly mean? Especially in the other translations it sounds like the spirit has left her body?
But OTOH can a body without a spirit be alive?
I know about spirtual death but I think that's not what this verse is about :dontknow:


ASV  Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she rose up immediately: and he commanded that something be given her to eat.
BBE  Luke 8:55 And her spirit came back to her and she got up straight away: and he gave orders that food was to be given to her.
CJB  Luke 8:55 and her spirit returned. She stood up at once, and he directed that something be given her to eat.
CSB  Luke 8:55 Her spirit returned, and she got up at once. Then He gave orders that she be given something to eat.
DBY  Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and immediately she rose up; and he commanded something to eat to be given to her.
DRA  Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she arose immediately. And he bid them give her to eat.
ERV  Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she rose up immediately: and he commanded that something be given her to eat.
ESV  Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once. And he directed that something should be given her to eat.
ETH  Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she arose. And he directed that they should give her to eat.
GNV  Luke 8:55 And her spirite came againe, and she rose straightway: and he comanded to giue her meate.
GWN  Luke 8:55 She came back to life and got up at once. He ordered her parents to give her something to eat.

[Molly]

[her spirit]

"came again"


G1994
επιστρέφω
epistrephō
ep-ee-stref'-o
From G1909 and G4762; to revert (literally, figuratively or morally): - come (go) again, convert, (re-) turn (about, again).


I would translate it,  her spirit returned.

[Pierac]

Ok Tony,

I got a link for you. It's just a page or so...


http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/fire.htm

Not sure if you will like it or not, but a quick read all the same.

Paul

[Tony N]

^KJVLuk 8:52-55 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

What does "came again" exactly mean? Especially in the other translations it sounds like the spirit has left her body?
But OTOH can a body without a spirit be alive?
I know about spirtual death but I think that's not what this verse is about :dontknow:


ASV  Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she rose up immediately: and he commanded that something be given her to eat.
BBE  Luke 8:55 And her spirit came back to her and she got up straight away: and he gave orders that food was to be given to her.
CJB  Luke 8:55 and her spirit returned. She stood up at once, and he directed that something be given her to eat.
CSB  Luke 8:55 Her spirit returned, and she got up at once. Then He gave orders that she be given something to eat.
DBY  Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and immediately she rose up; and he commanded something to eat to be given to her.
DRA  Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she arose immediately. And he bid them give her to eat.
ERV  Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she rose up immediately: and he commanded that something be given her to eat.
ESV  Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once. And he directed that something should be given her to eat.
ETH  Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she arose. And he directed that they should give her to eat.
GNV  Luke 8:55 And her spirite came againe, and she rose straightway: and he comanded to giue her meate.
GWN  Luke 8:55 She came back to life and got up at once. He ordered her parents to give her something to eat.

Since Jesus said she is not dead, I have to believe what He said. Matthew reports it this way:
Mat 9:24 said, "Retire, for the maiden did not die, but is drowsing.And they ridiculed Him."
Mat 9:25 Now when the throng was ejected, entering, He holds her hand, and the maiden was roused."

Albert Barne's Notes On The Bible says this:
My daughter is even now dead - Luke says that this was his only daughter, and that she was twelve years of age. Mark and Luke say that she was "at the point of death," and that information of her actual death was brought to him by one who was sent by the ruler of the synagogue, while Jesus was going. Matthew combined the two facts, and stated the representation which was made to Jesus, without stopping particularly to exhibit the manner in which it was done. In a summary way he says that the ruler communicated the information. Luke and Mark, dwelling more particularly on the circumstances, state at length the way in which it was done; that is, by himself stating, in a hurry, that she was "about to die," or "was dying," and then in a few moments sending word that "she was dead." The Greek word, rendered "is even now dead," does not of necessity mean, as our translation would express, that she had actually expired, but only that she was "dying" or about to die. Compare Gen_48:21. It is likely that a father, in these circumstances, would use a word as nearly expressing actual death as would be consistent with the fact that she was alive. The passage may be expressed thus: "My daughter was so sick that she must be by this time dead."

Adam Clarke's Commentary On The Bible says this:
My daughter is even now dead - Or, my daughter was just now dying; αρτι ετελευτησεν, or, is by this time dead: i.e. as Mr. Wakefield properly observes, She was so ill when I left home that she must be dead by this time. This turn of the expression reconciles the account given here with that in Mark and Luke. Michaelis conjectures that, in the Hebrew original, the words must have stood thus, עתה מתה  atah matah, which, without the points, may signify either, She is dead, or She is dying.
To be successful in our applications to God by prayer, four things are requisite; and this ruler teaches us what they are.

Here is how the Concordant Literal renders the passage:

Luk 8:52-55  Now they all lamented, and they grieved for her. Now He said, "Be not lamenting, for she did not die, but is drowsing."  (53)  And they ridiculed Him, being aware that she died."  (54)  Yet He, casting all outside and holding her hand, shouts, saying, "Girl, be roused!"  (55)  And back turns her spirit, and she rose instantly. And He prescribes that she be given something to eat."

In the Greek it is literally "And on turns the spirit of her" in vs. 55.

[Tony N]

Ok Tony,

I got a link for you. It's just a page or so...
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/fire.htm
Not sure if you will like it or not, but a quick read all the same.
Paul

The writer states this from the link you provided. I will put the quote in italics so as to demarcate it from my reply:
To compare the terms "fire and brimstone" (or: burning sulfur) here with that in the book of Rev., let's read it from the LXX (the Greek version of the OT): "And the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah (theion) and fire from the Lord from out of the midst of heaven." I give here the Gr. word often translated "brimstone," or "sulfur," for you to note its spelling. This word is actually the neuter form of (theios) which means: Deity. With the definite article (the) before it, it means "the Divine nature." The same words are in the Greek text of Rev. 19:20 where we read of "the lake (or: pond) of the Fire (a figure of God) continuously burning within [the] Deity (theion)." So if it's the same as that which killed those of Sodom and Gomorrah, what will it do to those who take the mark of the beast? I suggest that it will kill them. But what does this mean?

Well, it's called "the second death"

The fire and sulphur which rained down on Sodom was not the second death. Those Sodomites did not enter into the lake of fire. That only takes place after the Great White Throne judgment.

Jesus said:
Luk 17:29 Yet on the day in which Lot came out from Sodom, fire and sulphur [theion] rains from heaven and destroys them all."
He makes no mention that God rained down fire and God on Sodom but sulphur.

[eaglesway]

Andrew Jukes did some extensive writing on theion and its usage in antiquity

Here is a quote from Ray Prinzing that I read on a site by Ken Eckerty


"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire.  The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.'  Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense.  In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone.  The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.'  The idea of judgment need not be excluded.  Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek.  In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it."

[WhiteWings]

Since Jesus said she is not dead, I have to believe what He said.

Yes. But it's not alway clear what is said. For me things can only return if they are away. Being near dead is a acceptable explanation for me.

[WhiteWings]

Article: Well, it's called "the second death"

The fire and sulphur which rained down on Sodom was not the second death. Those Sodomites did not enter into the lake of fire. That only takes place after the Great White Throne judgment.

I'll try to keep this as neutral as possible  :winkgrin:
The 5 cities are now believed to be in the dead sea according to some researchers.
Also according to some researchers the dead sea was also linked to fire at Jesus age.
Just like Jesus used the literal Gehenna to explain spiritual affairs; He did the same with LoF.
(people also used the dead sea as a garbage dump)

Jesus said:
Luk 17:29 Yet on the day in which Lot came out from Sodom, fire and sulphur [theion] rains from heaven and destroys them all."
He makes no mention that God rained down fire and God on Sodom but sulphur.

No, but it surely was judgment day for those living in the cities. It purified the area of their sins. The destruction didn't happen by random chance.

[Tony N]

Andrew Jukes did some extensive writing on theion and its usage in antiquity

Here is a quote from Ray Prinzing that I read on a site by Ken Eckerty


"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire.  The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.'  Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense.  In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone.  The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.'  The idea of judgment need not be excluded.  Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek.  In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it."

That's right, the lake of fire and brimstone is for Divine purification of the new earth of dead bodies.

[Tony N]

Article: Well, it's called "the second death"

Tony replied: The fire and sulphur which rained down on Sodom was not the second death. Those Sodomites did not enter into the lake of fire. That only takes place after the Great White Throne judgment.

WW replied: I'll try to keep this as neutral as possible  :winkgrin:
The 5 cities are now believed to be in the dead sea according to some researchers.
Also according to some researchers the dead sea was also linked to fire at Jesus age.

Tony's reply: Sources for those researchers? And, just curious  :dontknow: what do you mean? Do you mean some researchers said that fire destroyed those cities of the dead sea?  :dontknow:

WW wrote: Just like Jesus used the literal Gehenna to explain spiritual affairs; He did the same with LoF.

Tony's reply: Really?  :dontknow: I can't find any verse where Jesus used the lake of fire to explain spiritual affairs.

WW continues: (people also used the dead sea as a garbage dump)

Tony's reply: I think you mean the Jerusalemites used Gehenna as a garbage dump.

Tony wrote: Jesus said:
Luk 17:29 Yet on the day in which Lot came out from Sodom, fire and sulphur [theion] rains from heaven and destroys them all."
He makes no mention that God rained down fire and God on Sodom but sulphur.

WW replied: No, but it surely was judgment day for those living in the cities. It purified the area of their sins. The destruction didn't happen by random chance.

Tony's reply:  :thumbsup: Exactly! I agree wholeheartedly!  :thumbsup:

[Zeek]

Andrew Jukes did some extensive writing on theion and its usage in antiquity

Here is a quote from Ray Prinzing that I read on a site by Ken Eckerty


"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire.  The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.'  Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense.  In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone.  The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.'  The idea of judgment need not be excluded.  Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek.  In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it."

if the lake of fire is "divine purification" and it is second death; and the saints are not hurt of it; ie: the Daniel 3 story of Shadrach and gang is a similtude of LOF, then not a hair is singed.  As Chris said on another thread, "Notice that these three men were cast into the fire BOUND and yet were seen walking LOOSED (with one like unto the Son of God)? That upon their bodies "the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them"?"

How then did the second death "purify" those in Christ?  Seems to me, one should be singed, burned in order to be purified.  So LOF would "have power" over one; in order to be purfied.

When I've asked others before; they say "it doesn't burn them" because the saints fire and brimstone already occurred earlier;--->first death.


I don't see first and second death as the same thing, just at different times.  

fire and brimstone seems to me to be connected to "unrighteous", not the "righteous".  I don't see anywhere where brimstone is ever used in the bible as a "purifier" to make one a "believer".