The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[Tony N]

i was tormented for 14 yrs as a believer, (( in his presence )) couldnt break out, couldnt get it right, i WAS a believer, seeking to and fro one preacher to the next, reading, wondering, till LOVE came and the message of UR set me free.
a light came on, havent been the same. even the scriptures read differnt now.
off topic? sorry.
chuckt

Your name is written in the scroll or book of life so you surely can't or couldn't have been cast into the second death.

[Tony N]

WW, that's kind of been my argument on these types of discussions all along.  Spiritual Truth for me, doesn't come through natural reasoning and discussion or study, but through revelation by way of relationship of intimacy with the Father.  The mind of man is limited at best.  And it's not conditioned to articulate spiritual principles.  It's purpose is to allow us to operate in natural things, not spiritual so much.  Everyone has opinions, but who has Truth?  Who has clarity?  Some speak boldy as though their point of view is "the" point of view that's right.  Yet their conclusions seem to be just as elusive as the original text.

  "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Tim. 2:15

Though the mind of man is limited, especially the soulish man, the spiritual man knows that the mind is a necessary component to understanding God's will and way and truths.

(Luk 24:45)  Then He opens up their mind to understand the scriptures,

(Rom 1:28)  And according as they do not test God, to have Him in recognition, God gives them over to a disqualified mind, to do that which is not befitting,

(Rom 7:23)  yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

(Rom 7:25)  I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."

(Rom 11:34)  For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?

(Rom 12:2)  and not to be configured to this eon, but to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for you to be testing what is the will of God, good and well pleasing and perfect."

(Rom 14:5)  One indeed, is deciding for one day rather than another day, yet one is deciding for every day. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind."

(1Co 1:10)  Now I am entreating you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all may be saying the same thing, and there may be no schisms among you, but you may be attuned to the same mind and to the same opinion."

(1Co 2:16)  For who knew the mind of the Lord? Who will be deducing from Him? Yet we have the mind of Christ.

(1Co 14:14)  For if I should be praying in a language, my spirit is praying, yet my mind is unfruitful."

(1Co 14:15)  What is it, then? Should I be praying in the spirit, yet I will be praying with the mind also. In the spirit will I be playing music, yet I will be playing with the mind also."

(1Co 14:19)  But, in the ecclesia, do I want to speak five words with my mind, that I should be instructing others also, or ten thousand words in a language?

(Eph 4:17)  This, then, I am saying and attesting in the Lord: By no means are you still to be walking according as those of the nations also are walking, in the vanity of their mind,

(Eph 4:23)  yet to be rejuvenated in the spirit of your mind,

(Phi 4:7)  and the peace of God, that is superior to every frame of mind, shall be garrisoning your hearts and your apprehensions in Christ Jesus."

(Col 2:18)  Let no one be arbitrating against you, who wants, in humility and the ritual of the messengers, to parade what he has seen, feignedly, puffed up by his fleshly mind,

(2Th 2:2)  that you be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be alarmed, either through spirit, or through word, or through an epistle as through us, as that the day of the Lord is present."

(1Ti 6:5)  altercations of men of a decadent mind and deprived of the truth, inferring that devoutness is capital."

(2Ti 3:8)  Now, by the method by which Jannes and Jambres withstand Moses, thus these also are withstanding the truth, men of a depraved mind, disqualified as to the faith."

(Tit 1:15)  All, indeed, is clean to the clean, yet to the defiled and unbelieving nothing is clean, but their mind as well as conscience is defiled."

(Rev 13:18)  Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six."

(Rev 17:9)  Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains where the woman is sitting on them,

[peacemaker]

"THE HORSE AND HIS RIDER will be THROWN INTO THE SEA."

The above is misquoted.

THE HORSE (sin on which a person rides, sits, or exercises) AND HIS RIDER (death) will be THROWN INTO THE SEA (Lake of fire).

A horse of a different color:

"Let us not back the wrong horse; a mistake in judgment is fruitless."

We are talking about the lake of fire being death, not a sea of weeds.

That would be the seed of tares, or the difference between gross and net weight.

peacemaker

[micah7:9]

WW, that's kind of been my argument on these types of discussions all along.  Spiritual Truth for me, doesn't come through natural reasoning and discussion or study, but through revelation by way of relationship of intimacy with the Father.  The mind of man is limited at best.  And it's not conditioned to articulate spiritual principles.  It's purpose is to allow us to operate in natural things, not spiritual so much.  Everyone has opinions, but who has Truth?  Who has clarity?  Some speak boldy as though their point of view is "the" point of view that's right.  Yet their conclusions seem to be just as elusive as the original text.

I just dont think you understand at all what The Lord is saying. But thats just me. :2c: :sigh:
  "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Tim. 2:15

Though the mind of man is limited, especially the soulish man, the spiritual man knows that the mind is a necessary component to understanding God's will and way and truths.

(Luk 24:45)  Then He opens up their mind to understand the scriptures,

(Rom 1:28)  And according as they do not test God, to have Him in recognition, God gives them over to a disqualified mind, to do that which is not befitting,

(Rom 7:23)  yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

(Rom 7:25)  I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."

(Rom 11:34)  For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?

(Rom 12:2)  and not to be configured to this eon, but to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for you to be testing what is the will of God, good and well pleasing and perfect."

(Rom 14:5)  One indeed, is deciding for one day rather than another day, yet one is deciding for every day. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind."

(1Co 1:10)  Now I am entreating you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all may be saying the same thing, and there may be no schisms among you, but you may be attuned to the same mind and to the same opinion."

(1Co 2:16)  For who knew the mind of the Lord? Who will be deducing from Him? Yet we have the mind of Christ.

(1Co 14:14)  For if I should be praying in a language, my spirit is praying, yet my mind is unfruitful."

(1Co 14:15)  What is it, then? Should I be praying in the spirit, yet I will be praying with the mind also. In the spirit will I be playing music, yet I will be playing with the mind also."

(1Co 14:19)  But, in the ecclesia, do I want to speak five words with my mind, that I should be instructing others also, or ten thousand words in a language?

(Eph 4:17)  This, then, I am saying and attesting in the Lord: By no means are you still to be walking according as those of the nations also are walking, in the vanity of their mind,

(Eph 4:23)  yet to be rejuvenated in the spirit of your mind,

(Phi 4:7)  and the peace of God, that is superior to every frame of mind, shall be garrisoning your hearts and your apprehensions in Christ Jesus."

(Col 2:18)  Let no one be arbitrating against you, who wants, in humility and the ritual of the messengers, to parade what he has seen, feignedly, puffed up by his fleshly mind,

(2Th 2:2)  that you be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be alarmed, either through spirit, or through word, or through an epistle as through us, as that the day of the Lord is present."

(1Ti 6:5)  altercations of men of a decadent mind and deprived of the truth, inferring that devoutness is capital."

(2Ti 3:8)  Now, by the method by which Jannes and Jambres withstand Moses, thus these also are withstanding the truth, men of a depraved mind, disqualified as to the faith."

(Tit 1:15)  All, indeed, is clean to the clean, yet to the defiled and unbelieving nothing is clean, but their mind as well as conscience is defiled."

(Rev 13:18)  Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six."

(Rev 17:9)  Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains where the woman is sitting on them,

[micah7:9]

For Post 376 Tony N

OOPs! Put it in the wrong place the first time I guess.
I just dont think you understand at all, what The Lord is saying. But thats just my 2 cents  :sigh:

[Tony N]

For Post 376 Tony N

OOPs! Put it in the wrong place the first time I guess.
I just dont think you understand at all, what The Lord is saying. But thats just my 2 cents  :sigh:

I know, I've been trying to tell Nathan that but you say it much better.

[Tony N]

Why is the second death for all the humans not written in the book of life but not a second death for Satan, beast and false prophet?

Because Satan, beast and false prophet never died a first death.

All humans not written in the book of life died the first death and now they must die again.

[Tony N]

"THE HORSE AND HIS RIDER will be THROWN INTO THE SEA."

The above is misquoted.

THE HORSE (sin on which a person rides, sits, or exercises) AND HIS RIDER (death) will be THROWN INTO THE SEA (Lake of fire).

A horse of a different color:

"Let us not back the wrong horse; a mistake in judgment is fruitless."

We are talking about the lake of fire being death, not a sea of weeds.

That would be the seed of tares, or the difference between gross and net weight.

peacemaker

Such sophistry as you write about above peacemaker actually puts a covering over the truth rather than letting the truth be revealed.

[peacemaker]

"THE HORSE AND HIS RIDER will be THROWN INTO THE SEA."

The above is misquoted.

THE HORSE (sin on which a person rides, sits, or exercises) AND HIS RIDER (death) will be THROWN INTO THE SEA (Lake of fire).

A horse of a different color:

"Let us not back the wrong horse; a mistake in judgment is fruitless."

We are talking about the lake of fire being death, not a sea of weeds.

That would be the seed of tares, or the difference between gross and net weight.

peacemaker

Such sophistry as you write about above peacemaker actually puts a covering over the truth rather than letting the truth be revealed.

Plausibly?

"The death of Sin, not the person."

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that ... judgment, is a good thing.
Seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance.

peacemaker

[jabcat]

Now for this very reason also, you must employ all diligence to supplement your faith with virtue, your virtue with knowledge [found in the Word], your knowledge with self-control, your self-control with endurance, your endurance with great devotion, your great devotion with brotherly fondness, your brotherly fondness with love!  For if these things are continually possessed by you and continually increasing, they are designating you as being neither idle nor unfruitful with reference to your full knowlege or our Master Yesu.  For whoever doesn't have these things present in him is blind, since this person has closed his eyes, having let escape his notice that he has been cleansed from his old wrongdoings.  2 Peter 1:5-9

[eaglesway]

Actually, when all in the 2nd death are vivified or given immortality then that will be the death of death.
What Eby fails to see is the metonymy of "death and hades being cast into the lake of fire.
quote from Tony

I am in agreement with this to some extent. However I do not see what criteria you are using to determine the difference between the metonymy and the literal. It seems reserved to your own opinion.

For instance, you use the example of "this bread is my body"

in this case the literal bread is the symbol of the body, the eating of it a symbol of the nature of our relationship as members of the body. The body is not literal, it is a symbol, as in "branches in the vine" and "living stones fitly joined to the chief cornerstone of the temple", of a larger spiritual realty.

Looking at "lake of fire which is the second death" you have determined that "lake of fire" is symbolic and that "second death" is literal-and you have also determined the exact nature of the experience described by the words "second death". I do not see, beyond your own opinion, the merit of that determination.

Going on to say that the vivifying of those held by death and the grave is the meaning of 'death and the unseen being destroyed'(which I agree with), it is nevertheless written, "It is given to men once to die and then comes the judgment". In my opinion the second death is a symbol for a second penalty of sin, even as death was the first penalty(remedied through faith in Christ). The symbol is connected not in re-experiencing the same experience, as you put it, "re-entering death", or as I would define that, being killed again. It is in the receiving of a second penalty of sin in those who have rejected the remedy.I described what I think(seeing through the glass darkly) that second death is in a former post(Blow torch of light consuming darkness, slaying Leviathan, exposing all that is hidden to the light etc.).

Death was the first penalty, including all its manifestations of the flesh and the old nature. Death reigned from Adam to Christ.

Now life has begun to reign and death is being swallowed up by immortality, including all its manifestations, specifically, the divine nature.
John sees the  transition  completed in Rev 5:13, which is simultaneous, I think, to 1 Cor 15:24-28

[Tony N]

"THE HORSE AND HIS RIDER will be THROWN INTO THE SEA."

The above is misquoted.

THE HORSE (sin on which a person rides, sits, or exercises) AND HIS RIDER (death) will be THROWN INTO THE SEA (Lake of fire).

A horse of a different color:

"Let us not back the wrong horse; a mistake in judgment is fruitless."

We are talking about the lake of fire being death, not a sea of weeds.

That would be the seed of tares, or the difference between gross and net weight.

peacemaker

Such sophistry as you write about above peacemaker actually puts a covering over the truth rather than letting the truth be revealed.

Plausibly?

"The death of Sin, not the person."

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that ... judgment, is a good thing.
Seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance.

peacemaker

Dear peacemaker, Sin did not die a first death therefore it cannot die a second death. Sin does not have a name. Revelation says "whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Sin is not a "who" but an "it."

Also, your kind-of-a quote from Hebrews "it is appointed for a man once to die and after this the judgment" is about the city of refuge and one must remain there till the death of the high priest and after his death, the judgment of that individual as to if he can go free or not.

[Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7]

What if the premise of understanding "death" has nothing to do with the absense of life in the first place?  What if it just means "separation"?  Adam died the day he ate of the tree just as God stated, but he coninued to live until he was well over 900 years old.  He was simply separated from the realm of God.  

What if the death we're talking about is death to the carnality in us instead of death to people?  The idea of people dying and being held in state of death only to be resurrected, judged and then put to death again . . .all the while proclaiming Jesus is the way, truth and Life . . .really?


This is WAY above the most of the minds in Christ that dwell here

[Tony N]

What if the premise of understanding "death" has nothing to do with the absense of life in the first place?  What if it just means "separation"?  Adam died the day he ate of the tree just as God stated, but he coninued to live until he was well over 900 years old.  He was simply separated from the realm of God.  

What if the death we're talking about is death to the carnality in us instead of death to people?  The idea of people dying and being held in state of death only to be resurrected, judged and then put to death again . . .all the while proclaiming Jesus is the way, truth and Life . . .really?

This is WAY above the most of the minds in Christ that dwell here

With me it is WAY below my mind in Christ as I dwell here.

[peacemaker]

Sin did not die a first death therefore it cannot die a second death. Sin does not have a name.
Revelation says "whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Sin is not a "who" but an "it."

A man's actions are determined by the state or condition of his heart, and the soul that sins is always conscious that [its] sin is intrinsically worthless, which is in need of correction. Let's not "muddy" the water by playing charade's. There is no man that sins not, and very few who overcome in this life. But all will come to the knowledge of the truth (each in their own era), as death comes upon all men. So likewise does the "Resurrection" of the dead.

"We are not raised from a second grave, or a penalty box."

A harbor of fresh water provides shelter from the wind, waves, and currents of the open sea of humanity.
A haven in time of storms, "Ye of little faith."

[Tony N]

Actually, when all in the 2nd death are vivified or given immortality then that will be the death of death.
What Eby fails to see is the metonymy of "death and hades being cast into the lake of fire.
quote from Tony

I am in agreement with this to some extent. However I do not see what criteria you are using to determine the difference between the metonymy and the literal. It seems reserved to your own opinion.

For instance, you use the example of "this bread is my body"

in this case the literal bread is the symbol of the body, the eating of it a symbol of the nature of our relationship as members of the body. The body is not literal, it is a symbol, as in "branches in the vine" and "living stones fitly joined to the chief cornerstone of the temple", of a larger spiritual realty.

Looking at "lake of fire which is the second death" you have determined that "lake of fire" is symbolic and that "second death" is literal-and you have also determined the exact nature of the experience described by the words "second death". I do not see, beyond your own opinion, the merit of that determination.

Going on to say that the vivifying of those held by death and the grave is the meaning of 'death and the unseen being destroyed'(which I agree with),

I never wrote that the meaning of "death and the unseen being destroyed is by vivifying those held by death.
What I did say though was that the second death is abolished by all being vivified according to 1 Corinthians 15:22-28.

Now life has begun to reign and death is being swallowed up by immortality, including all its manifestations, specifically, the divine nature.
John sees the  transition  completed in Rev 5:13, which is simultaneous, I think, to 1 Cor 15:24-28

John can't possibly see 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 completed in Revelation 5:13.
John sees Christ still reigning on the new earth and sees authorities, sovereignties and power on the new earth and still sees death on the new earth.
Paul sees beyond John's revelation by seeing Christ handing over the kingdom to the Father, sees Him quit reigning, sees all sovereignty, authority and power done away and death being abolished.

[Tony N]

Sin did not die a first death therefore it cannot die a second death. Sin does not have a name.
Revelation says "whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Sin is not a "who" but an "it."

A man's actions are determined by the state or condition of his heart, and the soul that sins is always conscious that [its] sin is intrinsically worthless, which is in need of correction. Let's not "muddy" the water by playing charade's. There is no man that sins not, and very few who overcome in this life. But all will come to the knowledge of the truth (each in their own era), as death comes upon all men. So likewise does the "Resurrection" of the dead.

"We are not raised from a second grave, or a penalty box."

A harbor of fresh water provides shelter from the wind, waves, and currents of the open sea of humanity.
A haven in time of storms, "Ye of little faith."

I'm not playing any charades nor muddying the waters.
All those whose names are not in the book of life will enter into death which is the absence of life. Therefore they have to be resurrected out of that death in order to be saved.

We aren't talking about fresh water here nor wind nor waves or currents of any sea. We are talking about death which is the absence of life. Whatever fanciful ideas you want give to the lake of fire beyond what John was inspired to give you must come back to the conclusion that whatever the lake of fire is it is definately DEATH and DEATH is the absence of life.

Once they are dead they can't resurrect themselves so God has to do it.

[micah7:9]

The book of life is "you, me." Bro. you are oblivious of the meanings out side of your understanding, you are "stuck" in the wisdom of the Greek and can not move forward in the Good News;  the maturing sons, the overcomer is free from your barriers, bais', and obstcales of learning. As long as you presume knowledge, you will gain no perspective of the unfolding of truth.

[Molly]

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

--Eph 1

[peacemaker]

Sin did not die a first death therefore it cannot die a second death. Sin does not have a name.
Revelation says "whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Sin is not a "who" but an "it."

A man's actions are determined by the state or condition of his heart, and the soul that sins is always conscious that [its] sin is intrinsically worthless, which is in need of correction. Let's not "muddy" the water by playing charade's. There is no man that sins not, and very few who overcome in this life. But all will come to the knowledge of the truth (each in their own era), as death comes upon all men. So likewise does the "Resurrection" of the dead.

"We are not raised from a second grave, or a penalty box."

A harbor of fresh water provides shelter from the wind, waves, and currents of the open sea of humanity.
A haven in time of storms, "Ye of little faith."

I'm not playing any charades nor muddying the waters.
All those whose names are not in the book of life will enter into death which is the absence of life. Therefore they have to be resurrected out of that death in order to be saved.

We aren't talking about fresh water here nor wind nor waves or currents of any sea. We are talking about death which is the absence of life. Whatever fanciful ideas you want give to the lake of fire beyond what John was inspired to give you must come back to the conclusion that whatever the lake of fire is it is definately DEATH and DEATH is the absence of life.

Once they are dead they can't resurrect themselves so God has to do it.

Death is the absence of life, however, this is not speaking of physical death.
You might want to consider, or give some thought to the "Lake" of Galilee.

peacemaker

[micah7:9]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the revealing, uncovering, unveling, manifeststion, apocalypse in those who are hearing, will hear what the Spirit is saying unto the called out. The resurrection, which is a "rising again," a continual happening as one hears from the awakening from asleep.
Death is a mankind, human being mark, those in Christ have no such thought for they are alive in Him. Death, is no value, has no fortune in the ovecomer, what is death verses the Life given by Christ...NOTHING. Whether that death is  the lake of fire...WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH... has no merit. I am resurrected...rising again...and rising again...rising again..can you not understand that the resurrection is life.
Rev 20:6  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Death is something the flesh, mankind, humanity must go through.

[reFORMer]

The last verse in Rv 20:15 KJV says, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." This is the closest Scripture comes regarding anyone or anything else than death and hades, the beast, false prophet and the devil being in the lake of fire. Young's Literal Translation says, "And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rv 20:15 YLT) This "if" is in the Greek and this "if" is never answered in the text. It does not actually say anyone was found, neither was any number of them given. We actually have more warrant to speculate there were none found who were not in that scroll, all were written about, as adding to say it was any number up to the popular non-Biblical misconception that it is the majority of the human race. It is adding to the words of this scroll to say there was even one found. It's simply not written. We don't want the plagues of this scroll added to us because we added words to it.

In case there were some cast into the lake (not, "boundaryless ocean,") we are as justified to think perhaps they almost immediately died again upon entry into this 2nd death. This would perhaps be as much an addition to the actual words used here as to say they were tormented without ceasing.

If Jesus is the scroll of life it seems probable that none were not found written in it, that all were found written in it, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)

[peacemaker]

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

The absence of life is something that Jesus attributed to many. "Let the dead bury the dead".

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)

[Molly]

If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)

[never] "see" [death]


G2334
θεωρέω
theōreō
theh-o-reh'-o
From a derivative of G2300 (perhaps by adverb of G3708); to be a spectator of, that is, discern, (literally, figuratively [experience] or intensively [acknowledge]): - behold, consider, look on, perceive, see. Compare G3700.


G2300
θεάομαι
theaomai
theh-ah'-om-ahee
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to look closely at, that is, (by implication) to perceive (literally or figuratively); by extension to visit: - behold, look (upon), see. Compare G3700.