We all deserve Hell

[willieH]

willieH: Hi trettep... :hithere:

Willie, why do babies die?

Please brother...  Can YOU answer this question?   :dontknow:

WHY does ANYONE DIE Paul?  God is GOD and He "could've" done this whole thing otherwise (or so we might arrogantly think)...  Where NO ONE DIED!

Btw... I lost a grandchild who DIED in my daughters WOMB (about 6 years ago)... so I have first-hand experience with this SORROWFUL scenario...

I can only say that Scripture notes that IN SIN are we CONCIEVED -- Psalms 51:5 -- behold, I was SHAPEN IN INIQUITY and IN SIN did my mother CONCIEVE me.

So that even though SIN is manifest BY our actions... that we are brought forth BY SINNERS, equates us to be SINNERS even in innocence... without the manifestation of sinful action.  I do not disagree with you that we are part and portion of ADAM and partake IN HIM, of the entry of SIN...         

Just as a DOG brings forth a DOG... a SINFUL human being brings forth another SINFUL human being...

I have not objected to the inherited ADVERSITY we all possess... We are created with it as part of our MAKEUP and I have so testified of it...

ALL men are appointed ONCE to die... Babies included...  :sigh:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[trettep]

Then the judgment of death STARTS at the time anyone inherits a sinful mind, which is birth. The judgment of death condemnation is not ONLY that people physically die, but that their NATURE confines them to death already. So the destruction of their body is not a punishment for someone else's sin, but the endpoint of the natural progression they inherited before they had a chance to transgress.

I believe the judgment of death starts the moment we are born.  We immediately have to toil which was another portion of the condemnation given to Adam.  And yes it is our nature that is already improper when we are born.  We are born with adamic nature (carnal creatures).

Paul

[trettep]

willieH: Hi trettep... :hithere:

Willie, why do babies die?

Please brother...  Can YOU answer this question?   :dontknow:

WHY does ANYONE DIE Paul?  God is GOD and He "could've" done this whole thing otherwise (or so we might arrogantly think)...  Where NO ONE DIED!

Btw... I lost a grandchild who DIED in my daughters WOMB (about 6 years ago)... so I have first-hand experience with this SORROWFUL scenario...

I can only say that Scripture notes that IN SIN are we CONCIEVED -- Psalms 51:5 -- behold, I was SHAPEN IN INIQUITY and IN SIN did my mother CONCIEVE me.

So that even though SIN is manifest BY our actions... that we are brought forth BY SINNERS, equates us to be SINNERS even in innocence... without the manifestation of sinful action.  I do not disagree with you that we are part and portion of ADAM and partake IN HIM, of the entry of SIN...         

Just as a DOG brings forth a DOG... a SINFUL human being brings forth another SINFUL human being...

I have not objected to the inherited ADVERSITY we all possess... We are created with it as part of our MAKEUP and I have so testified of it...

ALL men are appointed ONCE to die... Babies included...

...willieH  :cloud9:

Yes, I agree with what you have said here.  I believe babies die simply because we are all of the same nature that has received a condemnation.  I'm also sorry to hear about the loss you experienced.

Paul

[Seth]

Then the judgment of death STARTS at the time anyone inherits a sinful mind, which is birth. The judgment of death condemnation is not ONLY that people physically die, but that their NATURE confines them to death already. So the destruction of their body is not a punishment for someone else's sin, but the endpoint of the natural progression they inherited before they had a chance to transgress.

I believe the judgment of death starts the moment we are born.  We immediately have to toil which was another portion of the condemnation given to Adam.  And yes it is our nature that is already improper when we are born.  We are born with adamic nature (carnal creatures).

Paul

I guess we agree then on those particulars. The way I see it, which may differ from you, is rather than a single judgment sentence given to Adam, the sin that entered in is like a virus that all catch upon their birth. So people are not mortal because they are being punished for Adam's sin, but more that because Adam sinned, the resulting death was sent into the earth and reproduced among all who were born. The thing that was confusing was the hypothetical situation (what if nobody ever sinned, they would still die) didn't make sense to me since "not sinning" yet also "dying" didn't compute, and still doesn't if you factor death-in-sin as an unavoidable factor in the death condemnation. In other words, even if nobody committed a trespass, they would still be dead in the carnal mind anyway.

WillieH, as a new dad, I was so sorry to hear about your grandchild.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi trettep and Seth... :hithere:

Thank you both for your concerns for my loss... It indeed was very hard... cried for quite a while... still do, once in awhile.  I am happy to know that Josiah's life is in the wonderful hands of Father YHVH and in some ways... Glad he didn't have to go through all of this...

He will in part be, ...the JOY of the Lord, I shall experience one day!  :bgdance:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[trettep]

willieH: Hi trettep and Seth... :hithere:

Thank you both for your concerns for my loss... It indeed was very hard... cried for quite a while... still do, once in awhile.  I am happy to know that Josiah's life is in the wonderful hands of Father YHVH and in some ways... Glad he didn't have to go through all of this...

He will in part be, ...the JOY of the Lord, I shall experience one day!  :bgdance:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Well he is our brother also Willie.  So we should all look forward to that day when we can behold him also.  I'm confident we shall.

Paul

[sven]

even if we would deserve hell, grace wouldn't be grace if we were not saved from something we actually deserve, universalism is God's work, not ours.

at least that we deserve eternal death is scriptural in my opinion, so ALL of us will be saved from something we actually deserve, be it death or hell.