We all deserve Hell

[legoman]

I see this come up constantly:  We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.

Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?

Scriptures showing we all deserve death would be useful as well.

Thanks,
Legoman

[martincisneros]

That vomit only comes from a conscience that's not been washed in the Blood of Christ:

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. (Hebrews 10:1-2)

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: (Hebrews 1:3)

But I run into the unworthiness blasphemy from Universalists too, so it's not uniquely an ET phenomenon to set aside the Cup of our righteousness in Him and to be unthankful for being everything to the Father that Jesus is according to John 17, Ephesians 1, et. al.

[legoman]

Yeah I think this is just more baggage from our former ET beliefs.  I myself am still trying to get rid of it.  Its like we are all unworthy to be in the presence of God and only deserve hell - yet God made us that way and put us in the situation to begin with.  HUH?

Anyway this idea of everyone deserving hell must have come from somewhere.  What I have come up with so far is this:

- none, no not one are good (we are all sinners)
- we are all depraved and cannot do good
- the wages of sin is death (death in sin=hell for you)

There is biblical basis for this, but it must be twisted to come to the conclusion that hell is fair for everyone.  And you have to conveniently forget that God made us all this way (with flesh).

I'm starting to realize its something more like this:
- God intended us to be sinners for the very reason that we could experience sin (and evil).
- He provided Christ as the way out of our sins, and as the model of behavior that we should all follow
- eventually we will all be completely Christ-like and "in Christ", once the flesh has died.

The flesh is necessary to show us sin and evil.  Once we have learned what good & evil is and what sin & righteousness is, the flesh is no longer needed and is destroyed (death).  Then only the righteousness and goodness will be left in the spirit.  The flesh will always sin, even if the spirit is willing.

Am I making sense here?

[sparrow]

Yeah I think this is just more baggage from our former ET beliefs.  I myself am still trying to get rid of it.  Its like we are all unworthy to be in the presence of God and only deserve hell - yet God made us that way and put us in the situation to begin with.  HUH?

Anyway this idea of everyone deserving hell must have come from somewhere.  What I have come up with so far is this:

- none, no not one are good (we are all sinners)
- we are all depraved and cannot do good
- the wages of sin is death (death in sin=hell for you)

There is biblical basis for this, but it must be twisted to come to the conclusion that hell is fair for everyone.  And you have to conveniently forget that God made us all this way (with flesh).

I'm starting to realize its something more like this:
- God intended us to be sinners for the very reason that we could experience sin (and evil).
- He provided Christ as the way out of our sins, and as the model of behavior that we should all follow
- eventually we will all be completely Christ-like and "in Christ", once the flesh has died.

The flesh is necessary to show us sin and evil.  Once we have learned what good & evil is and what sin & righteousness is, the flesh is no longer needed and is destroyed (death).  Then only the righteousness and goodness will be left in the spirit.  The flesh will always sin, even if the spirit is willing.

Am I making sense here?

You are making PERFECT sense, legoman.

[martincisneros]

My flesh doesn't always sin.  In fact, it's been quite a while.  Hebrews 5:12-14, Romans 12 and numerous other passages talk about a transformed life and putting on the new man.  And Romans 6 says to reckon yourself alive from the dead, and to present yourself to God as such, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.  Flesh in the Scriptures are the words that find no basis in the Blood Covenants of the New Covenant.  "the flesh profits nothing, but the Words that I speak to you are spirit and life."  Flesh isn't bodily impulses and limitations, but a way of thinking that's not centered in having been redeemed by the Blood of the Cross in your spirit, soul, body, finances, and social life.  That's why just about half of St. Paul's epistles and sometimes exactly half wind up sounding like the self help gurus of today where he's confronting systems of thinking limited thoughts about the work of Christ and about one's own life's work through the Holy Spirit.  The phrases "In Christ," "In Whom," and "In Him" in the New Testament relate to present day realities in each of our lives, if we've believed God raised Him from the dead and confessed Him as the Lord of our lives with a mindset of abandoning our former way of living according to Luke 24, Acts 17, Acts 20, Romans 10, 2Corinthians 5, etc.  The New Birth isn't a process.  People seem to confuse that with the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit which is entirely different.  When you embraced His Lordship you became the righteousness of God in Him and you'll never throughout all of eternity be any more the righteousness of God than you were right that minute.  It was a completed work.  But Galatians 4 says:

1Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

None of us should be throwing ourselves out with the bath water with statements about not being complete in Christ already.  Yeah, you are.  Just got to grow up into the Word in all things so that your physical body knows the difference between good and evil and consistently rejects the evil as a matter of physical impulse rather than gravitating towards evil as it used to.  And that's the simple process of bathing your thoughts and your words in every promise of the Word regarding the present day realities of the redemption of your spirit, soul, body, finances, and social life.  The Holy Spirit is an ever present quickening spirit of that mortal body, according to Romans 8:11, but most Christians haven't yet fully committed their lives to the Scriptures becoming the Lord of their lives so that the nitro and the glycerine are put together and you've got what God intended in a very explosive spiritual life.  You build your life around the New Testament rather than trying to fit the Word into your busy schedule.  If He said in 2Corinthians 8:9 and in 2Corinthians 9:8 that you're disgustingly/obscenely rich, even financially, then the time for argument is over with and it's simply a matter of getting with Him to find out from Him what He wants done with what you have PRESUMING the infinite supply that the Scriptures say is yours in Christ.

We're to present ourselves to God as alive from the dead, according to Romans 6, but instead of having thrones around their necks people still wear a crucifix.  And I'm speaking of a mindset rather than jewelry.

[sven]

I started to write a kind of essay to refute the doctrine of hell, concerning this, my thoughts:

Even if men were so utterly wicked, that they deserve any doom and penalty imaginable, or better to say unimaginable, this is still no reason why God, being Love and good should actually inflict it.

For example if we had the chance to torture Hitler, Stalin or anybody similar for years or decades, they might possibly deserve it, but even if, who of us would actually do it?
I wouldn't do it and I guess very few people would do it, torturing a man like Hitler for decades, wouldn't make this one's worse than Hitler?

After all, men are God's creation and He said it was very good (Genesis 1:31), why should God create a creature so abominable that it deserves everlasting doom or allow His once good creature to become so abominable that He is forced to inflict endless doom on them as an adequate and deserved punishment, this makes absolutely no sense.

[martincisneros]

Yeah, whether your argument is from the image of God that's always within the reach of God for cleansing and reformation by the Blood, Word, and Holy Spirit, or whether your argument is about mankind or any man being a reprobate animal, then you've got to argue pretty rhetorically in a nonsequitarian way that there's any animal that God wouldn't be a good whisperer regarding, or that there were some wild horse sufficiently beyond the reach of Him breaking them.  Most of ET is a conditioned emotional response rather than anything implicit in even the worst of Bible translations.

[WhiteWings]

For example if we had the chance to torture Hitler, Stalin or anybody similar for years or decades, they might possibly deserve it, but even if, who of us would actually do it?
I wouldn't do it and I guess very few people would do it, torturing a man like Hitler for decades, wouldn't make this one's worse than Hitler?

Many would even be able shooting them from close range.
Anyone is able to kill in a rage. Like survival or protecting family.
But when that rage is ebbed away I think only the ones that 'deserve' torture are able to torture.

I see this come up constantly:  We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.

Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?

I think the quotes are correct. But the understanding linked to it is wrong.
"All have sinned." "Wages of sin is death."
I think that can be backed up with verses.
Things go wrong when 'it must be that way' gets added.
God wrote death but actually that was a slip of the pen and He intended 'tortured forever'.

Many religious people have turned into some sort of hooligans. Beat the crap out of the supporters of the other team; instead of together enjoying their sport (=religion)

Feel small and useless? Just join a religion and look down on others.
Just ignore the fact that you should help others up instead of kicking them down according to your own religion.
Superiority complex...

[legoman]

Most of ET is a conditioned emotional response rather than anything implicit in even the worst of Bible translations.

Thanks Martin.

Is this where the ideas of "penal substitution" comes from?  The common belief is Jesus "bore the punishment" ie. went to hell, so we wouldn't have to.  But since there is no hell, what did He do?

What about Jesus bearing our punishment on the cross?  Is that correct?  I realize Jesus went through much physical pain when He was crucified and then actually died.  But why did He have to save us in that way?  He died for our sins right, but what does that mean exactly?

Why couldn't God just "snap his fingers" and declare us all righteous?

I'm thinking it had to happen that way so Jesus would be a model to us all.  We all have to bear our cross, crucify the "old man", our carnal self.  So we will learn righteousness.

Help!

[WhiteWings]

BTW I wonder if Jews believe in ET stuff?
They have  a long tradition and can read the text in its original language without all kind of translation twists.
I wonder what religion would look like if everyone was fluent in ancient Greek and Hebrew.

[sven]

BTW I wonder if Jews believe in ET stuff?

according to my knowledge:

some Jews believe in purgatory (Gehenna), some in reincarnation
some believe only the rigtheous will have a ressurection (conditional immortality), this seems to me a quite common belief
I think few Jews actually believe in ET, some belief in no afterlive at all like the Sadduccess

as fas as I know for modern Jews might the Talmud be more important than what the Bible says

I think most Jews believe that works are more important than faith, those who live a 'good' life will take part in the world to come, no matter which religion they belong.

[martincisneros]

BTW I wonder if Jews believe in ET stuff?
They have  a long tradition and can read the text in its original language without all kind of translation twists.
I wonder what religion would look like if everyone was fluent in ancient Greek and Hebrew.

It would look about the same as it looks now.  Rabbis have gotten around many of the Messianic passages by claiming that passages like Isaiah 53 are talking about Israel.  So, it can be staring you right in the face with no translational intermediaries and traditions of going somewhere else with it are still possible.

[martincisneros]

Is this where the ideas of "penal substitution" comes from?

Actually, it comes from the Bible.

What about Jesus bearing our punishment on the cross?  Is that correct?

Yes, many passages to that effect, although to many it smacks of magic and they readily dismiss it and take a giant leap down from grace when they do.

But why did He have to save us in that way?

There is no aspect of your life that can't find it's remedy in the Cross.  All things are given to us by the Cross in a way where dethroned principalities and powers will never be able to interfere ever again.  Salvation is free, but it wasn't cheap.

Why couldn't God just "snap his fingers" and declare us all righteous?

The legalities involved with ransoming all of Creation, including the author of sin, himself, as the early Church would call and reference Satan.

I'm thinking it had to happen that way so Jesus would be a model to us all.

His example was in His life and in His overcoming of sin, according to 1Peter 2, Hebrews 5, and elsewhere, but the Cross was very specifically a legal transaction according to 1Peter 2:24 and innumerable other passages besides.  Our part of His sufferings is standing against all that we're redeemed from by His sufferings.  That's our fellowship, or being a partaker in the fellowship of His sufferings.  Our part is our deliverance from each aspect of the curse.  Where we don't press in, in any aspect of our lives, that's an aspect where we shame the covenant, and Hebrews 10 indicates that hostility is created with the Holy Spirit over it.

[jenna]

Yeah I think this is just more baggage from our former ET beliefs.  I myself am still trying to get rid of it.  Its like we are all unworthy to be in the presence of God and only deserve hell - yet God made us that way and put us in the situation to begin with.  HUH?

Anyway this idea of everyone deserving hell must have come from somewhere.  What I have come up with so far is this:

- none, no not one are good (we are all sinners)
- we are all depraved and cannot do good
- the wages of sin is death (death in sin=hell for you)

There is biblical basis for this, but it must be twisted to come to the conclusion that hell is fair for everyone.  And you have to conveniently forget that God made us all this way (with flesh).

I'm starting to realize its something more like this:
- God intended us to be sinners for the very reason that we could experience sin (and evil).
- He provided Christ as the way out of our sins, and as the model of behavior that we should all follow
- eventually we will all be completely Christ-like and "in Christ", once the flesh has died.

The flesh is necessary to show us sin and evil.  Once we have learned what good & evil is and what sin & righteousness is, the flesh is no longer needed and is destroyed (death).  Then only the righteousness and goodness will be left in the spirit.  The flesh will always sin, even if the spirit is willing.

Am I making sense here?

Most of this makes sense, except for the part where you say that God intended for us to be sinners so we could experience sin and evil. I don't believe this at all. God's intention was for us to be perfect. It is us who makes the choice not to be.

[legoman]

Is this where the ideas of "penal substitution" comes from?

Actually, it comes from the Bible.

What about Jesus bearing our punishment on the cross?  Is that correct?

Yes, many passages to that effect, although to many it smacks of magic and they readily dismiss it and take a giant leap down from grace when they do.

But why did He have to save us in that way?

There is no aspect of your life that can't find it's remedy in the Cross.  All things are given to us by the Cross in a way where dethroned principalities and powers will never be able to interfere ever again.  Salvation is free, but it wasn't cheap.

Why couldn't God just "snap his fingers" and declare us all righteous?

The legalities involved with ransoming all of Creation, including the author of sin, himself, as the early Church would call and reference Satan.

I'm thinking it had to happen that way so Jesus would be a model to us all.

His example was in His life and in His overcoming of sin, according to 1Peter 2, Hebrews 5, and elsewhere, but the Cross was very specifically a legal transaction according to 1Peter 2:24 and innumerable other passages besides.  Our part of His sufferings is standing against all that we're redeemed from by His sufferings.  That's our fellowship, or being a partaker in the fellowship of His sufferings.  Our part is our deliverance from each aspect of the curse.  Where we don't press in, in any aspect of our lives, that's an aspect where we shame the covenant, and Hebrews 10 indicates that hostility is created with the Holy Spirit over it.

Thanks Martin.  I'm just reading Hebrews 2 and its starting to make a bit of sense, but I have more studying to do.  Heb 2:14-18 are saying Christ had to be made like us and die like us so He could defeat Satan, and so He could help us when we are tempted.

Regarding "penal substitution" - I thought this was the idea that Christ died and went to "hell" in our place?

[legoman]

Yeah I think this is just more baggage from our former ET beliefs.  I myself am still trying to get rid of it.  Its like we are all unworthy to be in the presence of God and only deserve hell - yet God made us that way and put us in the situation to begin with.  HUH?

Anyway this idea of everyone deserving hell must have come from somewhere.  What I have come up with so far is this:

- none, no not one are good (we are all sinners)
- we are all depraved and cannot do good
- the wages of sin is death (death in sin=hell for you)

There is biblical basis for this, but it must be twisted to come to the conclusion that hell is fair for everyone.  And you have to conveniently forget that God made us all this way (with flesh).

I'm starting to realize its something more like this:
- God intended us to be sinners for the very reason that we could experience sin (and evil).
- He provided Christ as the way out of our sins, and as the model of behavior that we should all follow
- eventually we will all be completely Christ-like and "in Christ", once the flesh has died.

The flesh is necessary to show us sin and evil.  Once we have learned what good & evil is and what sin & righteousness is, the flesh is no longer needed and is destroyed (death).  Then only the righteousness and goodness will be left in the spirit.  The flesh will always sin, even if the spirit is willing.

Am I making sense here?

Most of this makes sense, except for the part where you say that God intended for us to be sinners so we could experience sin and evil. I don't believe this at all. God's intention was for us to be perfect. It is us who makes the choice not to be.

Hi Jenna,

This is just based on the fact that God has declared everything that will happen (Isaiah 46:10-11), and He had perfect foreknowledge of what would happen when He created everything... So He knew/planned (whatever you want to call it) we would sin and planned Jesus to be the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

Also this verse from the Concordant pretty much says it:
Ecc 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it

Anyway this will just lead into a big freewill/predestination debate, so just refer to one of the other threads archived around here if you want to go down that path...  :winkgrin:

Peace.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Legoman & Sparrow!  :hithere:

Yeah I think this is just more baggage from our former ET beliefs.  I myself am still trying to get rid of it.  Its like we are all unworthy to be in the presence of God and only deserve hell - yet God made us that way and put us in the situation to begin with.  HUH?

Anyway this idea of everyone deserving hell must have come from somewhere.  What I have come up with so far is this:

- none, no not one are good (we are all sinners)
- we are all depraved and cannot do good
- the wages of sin is death (death in sin=hell for you)

There is biblical basis for this, but it must be twisted to come to the conclusion that hell is fair for everyone.  And you have to conveniently forget that God made us all this way (with flesh).

I'm starting to realize its something more like this:
- God intended us to be sinners for the very reason that we could experience sin (and evil).
- He provided Christ as the way out of our sins, and as the model of behavior that we should all follow
- eventually we will all be completely Christ-like and "in Christ", once the flesh has died.

The flesh is necessary to show us sin and evil.  Once we have learned what good & evil is and what sin & righteousness is, the flesh is no longer needed and is destroyed (death).  Then only the righteousness and goodness will be left in the spirit.  The flesh will always sin, even if the spirit is willing.

Am I making sense here?

You are making PERFECT sense, legoman.

Big DITTO to what SPARROW just said!   :2thumbs: :gimmefive:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Legoman!  :hithere:

I see this come up constantly:  We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.

Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?

Scriptures showing we all deserve death would be useful as well.

Thanks,
Legoman

No matter what MANY foolish men shall say, ...NO ONE "deserves" Hell...  :thumbdown:

GOD just me a new grandson (in december) who WILL be a sinner... Does he deserve HELL? 

Of course he does not!!  ...he is part of the "WORLD" that GOD SO LOVES -- John 3:16 -- and that GOD sent His Son NOT to CONDEMN -- John 3:17 -- so why would he "deserve" HELL?

Well, the TRUTH is, that my grandson "deserves" the LOVE of GOD which sent His SON, ...NOT... to CONDEMN him... But to SAVE him... :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[legoman]

Great post willie and congrats on the new grandson!

[WhiteWings]

BTW I wonder if Jews believe in ET stuff?
They have  a long tradition and can read the text in its original language without all kind of translation twists.
I wonder what religion would look like if everyone was fluent in ancient Greek and Hebrew.

It would look about the same as it looks now.  Rabbis have gotten around many of the Messianic passages by claiming that passages like Isaiah 53 are talking about Israel.  So, it can be staring you right in the face with no translational intermediaries and traditions of going somewhere else with it are still possible.

Agreed. I'm sure Rabbis also twist words.
The difference is that the Jews can read the original words that are free of doctrine. They at least have clean source.
The translations are (allmost) all poluted with doctrine.
I think a KJV only or a YLT/Rotherham only translation world would look diffrently.
Its far easier to teach a corrupted ET doctrine with KJV as support than if your listeners verify everything in their YLT.
Hebrew goes one step further in that I think.

[aspiring son]

For example if we had the chance to torture Hitler, Stalin or anybody similar for years or decades, they might possibly deserve it, but even if, who of us would actually do it?
I wouldn't do it and I guess very few people would do it, torturing a man like Hitler for decades, wouldn't make this one's worse than Hitler?

Many would even be able shooting them from close range.
Anyone is able to kill in a rage. Like survival or protecting family.
But when that rage is ebbed away I think only the ones that 'deserve' torture are able to torture.

I see this come up constantly:  We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.

Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?

I think the quotes are correct. But the understanding linked to it is wrong.
"All have sinned." "Wages of sin is death."
I think that can be backed up with verses.
Things go wrong when 'it must be that way' gets added.
God wrote death but actually that was a slip of the pen and He intended 'tortured forever'.

Many religious people have turned into some sort of hooligans. Beat the crap out of the supporters of the other team; instead of together enjoying their sport (=religion)

Feel small and useless? Just join a religion and look down on others.
Just ignore the fact that you should help others up instead of kicking them down according to your own religion.
Superiority complex...

Hits the nail on the head.

[Livelystone]

None of us should be throwing ourselves out with the bath water with statements about not being complete in Christ already.  Yeah, you are.

Ok for purpose of discussion lets suppose that is exactly the way it is

Then I have to ask why is Christ 2 different then Christ 1 who walked in the image and likeness of a God who does not change?

Having triumphed over sin and death Christ and the Apostles went about bringing forth the fruit of the kingdom healing the multitudes of all their diseases .

In Christ is to be Christ, no less and no different..... the same anointing that is on the head is on the body and as were told in the scriptures "by their fruit you shall know them so........... show me the fruit !!!

Being in the promise land reaps a harvest of grapes the size of cantaloupes but every time I took to look to where the voice comes from that says "Lo here is Christ",........... all I see is raisins. (That is NOT directed at anyone)

In Christ is the hope of Glory and there plenty of Scriptures that point to this anointing and presence of the Lord that has not yet happened........ however to say this is it and all there is to come is to take away the vision and the hope of those who look forward to that day. The fact that there is a promise yet to come is why all those who unfairly died without receiving the promise did so without a whimper............ because they like others unto this day know that there is more good news to come and we have yet to see the barley company who are the firstfruits manifest the anointing that is on them. (IMO that hold up MIGHT well be a case of identity theft and people falling short of the anointing that is ALREADY on them)

IMO until we see a cleansing of the body through the truth of the scriptures being taught, sin that is a principality and living in the flesh as the serpent seed still within Christians is going to remain healthy and continue to fertilize the tares....... to deny it's presence is to call the Bible a lie.

On the positive side I believe He. 9:28 speaks of a purification of those who will become High Priest after the manner of Melchezedec........ on the sad side I also believe that there are priests who will never become High Priests.


Blessings

Doug

[Zeek]

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[jabcat]

Agree Zeek.  Paul said he constantly did what he didn't want, and vice versa.  He talked about the law of sin in his flesh.  He also indicated he would be (and needed to be) delivered from that at some point in the future.  However, on the other hand, it seems to me he didn't believe all his shortcoming (sin) was laid to his account [?] (not saying I fully understand this), as he said it was no longer him that sinned, but the sin that dwelled in him.  Although we are all on varying levels of growth;  some much more mature than others, some flat out carnal;  I seriously doubt any of us have passed the Apostle Paul in our maturity, and all still have much room for growth.  IMO, even though I often may not recognize it, the shortcomings and need for mercy and growth are always present;  and God is constantly working His renewal through me (us) to bring me (us) where I (we) need to be.  And apparently some of us won't get there in this lifetime, and will be saved through destruction.  I'm sure, best to be obedient now.

[sparrow]

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Boy, this sure has been a recurring theme for me the last few days.
Can't believe once again... here it is.
in my face.

well, actually I can... :happy3:

thanks Zeek.

The seen is temporary, the unseen..eternal.