I see this come up constantly: We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.
Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?
Scriptures showing we all deserve death would be useful as well.
Thanks,
Legoman
That vomit only comes from a conscience that's not been washed in the Blood of Christ:
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. (Hebrews 10:1-2)
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: (Hebrews 1:3)
But I run into the unworthiness blasphemy from Universalists too, so it's not uniquely an ET phenomenon to set aside the Cup of our righteousness in Him and to be unthankful for being everything to the Father that Jesus is according to John 17, Ephesians 1, et. al.
Yeah I think this is just more baggage from our former ET beliefs. I myself am still trying to get rid of it. Its like we are all unworthy to be in the presence of God and only deserve hell - yet God made us that way and put us in the situation to begin with. HUH?
Anyway this idea of everyone deserving hell must have come from somewhere. What I have come up with so far is this:
- none, no not one are good (we are all sinners)
- we are all depraved and cannot do good
- the wages of sin is death (death in sin=hell for you)
There is biblical basis for this, but it must be twisted to come to the conclusion that hell is fair for everyone. And you have to conveniently forget that God made us all this way (with flesh).
I'm starting to realize its something more like this:
- God intended us to be sinners for the very reason that we could experience sin (and evil).
- He provided Christ as the way out of our sins, and as the model of behavior that we should all follow
- eventually we will all be completely Christ-like and "in Christ", once the flesh has died.
The flesh is necessary to show us sin and evil. Once we have learned what good & evil is and what sin & righteousness is, the flesh is no longer needed and is destroyed (death). Then only the righteousness and goodness will be left in the spirit. The flesh will always sin, even if the spirit is willing.
Am I making sense here?
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 08:32:49 PM
Yeah I think this is just more baggage from our former ET beliefs. I myself am still trying to get rid of it. Its like we are all unworthy to be in the presence of God and only deserve hell - yet God made us that way and put us in the situation to begin with. HUH?
Anyway this idea of everyone deserving hell must have come from somewhere. What I have come up with so far is this:
- none, no not one are good (we are all sinners)
- we are all depraved and cannot do good
- the wages of sin is death (death in sin=hell for you)
There is biblical basis for this, but it must be twisted to come to the conclusion that hell is fair for everyone. And you have to conveniently forget that God made us all this way (with flesh).
I'm starting to realize its something more like this:
- God intended us to be sinners for the very reason that we could experience sin (and evil).
- He provided Christ as the way out of our sins, and as the model of behavior that we should all follow
- eventually we will all be completely Christ-like and "in Christ", once the flesh has died.
The flesh is necessary to show us sin and evil. Once we have learned what good & evil is and what sin & righteousness is, the flesh is no longer needed and is destroyed (death). Then only the righteousness and goodness will be left in the spirit. The flesh will always sin, even if the spirit is willing.
Am I making sense here?
You are making PERFECT sense, legoman.
My flesh doesn't always sin. In fact, it's been quite a while. Hebrews 5:12-14, Romans 12 and numerous other passages talk about a transformed life and putting on the new man. And Romans 6 says to reckon yourself alive from the dead, and to present yourself to God as such, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Flesh in the Scriptures are the words that find no basis in the Blood Covenants of the New Covenant. "the flesh profits nothing, but the Words that I speak to you are spirit and life." Flesh isn't bodily impulses and limitations, but a way of thinking that's not centered in having been redeemed by the Blood of the Cross in your spirit, soul, body, finances, and social life. That's why just about half of St. Paul's epistles and sometimes exactly half wind up sounding like the self help gurus of today where he's confronting systems of thinking limited thoughts about the work of Christ and about one's own life's work through the Holy Spirit. The phrases "In Christ," "In Whom," and "In Him" in the New Testament relate to present day realities in each of our lives, if we've believed God raised Him from the dead and confessed Him as the Lord of our lives with a mindset of abandoning our former way of living according to Luke 24, Acts 17, Acts 20, Romans 10, 2Corinthians 5, etc. The New Birth isn't a process. People seem to confuse that with the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit which is entirely different. When you embraced His Lordship you became the righteousness of God in Him and you'll never throughout all of eternity be any more the righteousness of God than you were right that minute. It was a completed work. But Galatians 4 says:
1Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
None of us should be throwing ourselves out with the bath water with statements about not being complete in Christ already. Yeah, you are. Just got to grow up into the Word in all things so that your physical body knows the difference between good and evil and consistently rejects the evil as a matter of physical impulse rather than gravitating towards evil as it used to. And that's the simple process of bathing your thoughts and your words in every promise of the Word regarding the present day realities of the redemption of your spirit, soul, body, finances, and social life. The Holy Spirit is an ever present quickening spirit of that mortal body, according to Romans 8:11, but most Christians haven't yet fully committed their lives to the Scriptures becoming the Lord of their lives so that the nitro and the glycerine are put together and you've got what God intended in a very explosive spiritual life. You build your life around the New Testament rather than trying to fit the Word into your busy schedule. If He said in 2Corinthians 8:9 and in 2Corinthians 9:8 that you're disgustingly/obscenely rich, even financially, then the time for argument is over with and it's simply a matter of getting with Him to find out from Him what He wants done with what you have PRESUMING the infinite supply that the Scriptures say is yours in Christ.
We're to present ourselves to God as alive from the dead, according to Romans 6, but instead of having thrones around their necks people still wear a crucifix. And I'm speaking of a mindset rather than jewelry.
I started to write a kind of essay to refute the doctrine of hell, concerning this, my thoughts:
Even if men were so utterly wicked, that they deserve any doom and penalty imaginable, or better to say unimaginable, this is still no reason why God, being Love and good should actually inflict it.
For example if we had the chance to torture Hitler, Stalin or anybody similar for years or decades, they might possibly deserve it, but even if, who of us would actually do it?
I wouldn't do it and I guess very few people would do it, torturing a man like Hitler for decades, wouldn't make this one's worse than Hitler?
After all, men are God's creation and He said it was very good (Genesis 1:31), why should God create a creature so abominable that it deserves everlasting doom or allow His once good creature to become so abominable that He is forced to inflict endless doom on them as an adequate and deserved punishment, this makes absolutely no sense.
Yeah, whether your argument is from the image of God that's always within the reach of God for cleansing and reformation by the Blood, Word, and Holy Spirit, or whether your argument is about mankind or any man being a reprobate animal, then you've got to argue pretty rhetorically in a nonsequitarian way that there's any animal that God wouldn't be a good whisperer regarding, or that there were some wild horse sufficiently beyond the reach of Him breaking them. Most of ET is a conditioned emotional response rather than anything implicit in even the worst of Bible translations.
Quote from: sven on May 15, 2009, 09:22:00 PM
For example if we had the chance to torture Hitler, Stalin or anybody similar for years or decades, they might possibly deserve it, but even if, who of us would actually do it?
I wouldn't do it and I guess very few people would do it, torturing a man like Hitler for decades, wouldn't make this one's worse than Hitler?
Many would even be able shooting them from close range.
Anyone is able to kill in a rage. Like survival or protecting family.
But when that rage is ebbed away I think only the ones that 'deserve' torture are able to torture.
QuoteI see this come up constantly: We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.
Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?
I think the quotes are correct. But the understanding linked to it is wrong.
"All have sinned." "Wages of sin is death."
I think that can be backed up with verses.
Things go wrong when 'it must be that way' gets added.
God wrote death but actually that was a slip of the pen and He intended 'tortured forever'.
Many religious people have turned into some sort of hooligans. Beat the crap out of the supporters of the other team; instead of together enjoying their sport (=religion)
Feel small and useless? Just join a religion and look down on others.
Just ignore the fact that you should help others up instead of kicking them down according to your own religion.
Superiority complex...
QuoteMost of ET is a conditioned emotional response rather than anything implicit in even the worst of Bible translations.
Thanks Martin.
Is this where the ideas of "penal substitution" comes from? The common belief is Jesus "bore the punishment" ie. went to hell, so we wouldn't have to. But since there is no hell, what did He do?
What about Jesus bearing our punishment on the cross? Is that correct? I realize Jesus went through much physical pain when He was crucified and then actually died. But why did He have to save us in that way? He died for our sins right, but what does that mean exactly?
Why couldn't God just "snap his fingers" and declare us all righteous?
I'm thinking it had to happen that way so Jesus would be a model to us all. We all have to bear our cross, crucify the "old man", our carnal self. So we will learn righteousness.
Help!
BTW I wonder if Jews believe in ET stuff?
They have a long tradition and can read the text in its original language without all kind of translation twists.
I wonder what religion would look like if everyone was fluent in ancient Greek and Hebrew.
QuoteBTW I wonder if Jews believe in ET stuff?
according to my knowledge:
some Jews believe in purgatory (Gehenna), some in reincarnation
some believe only the rigtheous will have a ressurection (conditional immortality), this seems to me a quite common belief
I think few Jews actually believe in ET, some belief in no afterlive at all like the Sadduccess
as fas as I know for modern Jews might the Talmud be more important than what the Bible says
I think most Jews believe that works are more important than faith, those who live a 'good' life will take part in the world to come, no matter which religion they belong.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 15, 2009, 10:00:57 PM
BTW I wonder if Jews believe in ET stuff?
They have a long tradition and can read the text in its original language without all kind of translation twists.
I wonder what religion would look like if everyone was fluent in ancient Greek and Hebrew.
It would look about the same as it looks now. Rabbis have gotten around many of the Messianic passages by claiming that passages like Isaiah 53 are talking about Israel. So, it can be staring you right in the face with no translational intermediaries and traditions of going somewhere else with it are still possible.
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 09:59:03 PMIs this where the ideas of "penal substitution" comes from?
Actually, it comes from the Bible.
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 09:59:03 PMWhat about Jesus bearing our punishment on the cross? Is that correct?
Yes, many passages to that effect, although to many it smacks of magic and they readily dismiss it and take a giant leap down from grace when they do.
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 09:59:03 PMBut why did He have to save us in that way?
There is no aspect of your life that can't find it's remedy in the Cross. All things are given to us by the Cross in a way where dethroned principalities and powers will never be able to interfere ever again. Salvation is free, but it wasn't cheap.
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 09:59:03 PMWhy couldn't God just "snap his fingers" and declare us all righteous?
The legalities involved with ransoming all of Creation, including the author of sin, himself, as the early Church would call and reference Satan.
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 09:59:03 PMI'm thinking it had to happen that way so Jesus would be a model to us all.
His example was in His life and in His overcoming of sin, according to 1Peter 2, Hebrews 5, and elsewhere, but the Cross was very specifically a legal transaction according to 1Peter 2:24 and innumerable other passages besides. Our part of His sufferings is standing against all that we're redeemed from by His sufferings. That's our fellowship, or being a partaker in the fellowship of His sufferings. Our part is our deliverance from each aspect of the curse. Where we don't press in, in any aspect of our lives, that's an aspect where we shame the covenant, and Hebrews 10 indicates that hostility is created with the Holy Spirit over it.
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 08:32:49 PM
Yeah I think this is just more baggage from our former ET beliefs. I myself am still trying to get rid of it. Its like we are all unworthy to be in the presence of God and only deserve hell - yet God made us that way and put us in the situation to begin with. HUH?
Anyway this idea of everyone deserving hell must have come from somewhere. What I have come up with so far is this:
- none, no not one are good (we are all sinners)
- we are all depraved and cannot do good
- the wages of sin is death (death in sin=hell for you)
There is biblical basis for this, but it must be twisted to come to the conclusion that hell is fair for everyone. And you have to conveniently forget that God made us all this way (with flesh).
I'm starting to realize its something more like this:
- God intended us to be sinners for the very reason that we could experience sin (and evil).
- He provided Christ as the way out of our sins, and as the model of behavior that we should all follow
- eventually we will all be completely Christ-like and "in Christ", once the flesh has died.
The flesh is necessary to show us sin and evil. Once we have learned what good & evil is and what sin & righteousness is, the flesh is no longer needed and is destroyed (death). Then only the righteousness and goodness will be left in the spirit. The flesh will always sin, even if the spirit is willing.
Am I making sense here?
Most of this makes sense, except for the part where you say that God intended for us to be sinners so we could experience sin and evil. I don't believe this at all. God's intention was for us to be perfect. It is us who makes the choice not to be.
Quote from: martincisneros on May 15, 2009, 11:00:22 PM
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 09:59:03 PMIs this where the ideas of "penal substitution" comes from?
Actually, it comes from the Bible.Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 09:59:03 PMWhat about Jesus bearing our punishment on the cross? Is that correct?
Yes, many passages to that effect, although to many it smacks of magic and they readily dismiss it and take a giant leap down from grace when they do.Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 09:59:03 PMBut why did He have to save us in that way?
There is no aspect of your life that can't find it's remedy in the Cross. All things are given to us by the Cross in a way where dethroned principalities and powers will never be able to interfere ever again. Salvation is free, but it wasn't cheap.Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 09:59:03 PMWhy couldn't God just "snap his fingers" and declare us all righteous?
The legalities involved with ransoming all of Creation, including the author of sin, himself, as the early Church would call and reference Satan.Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 09:59:03 PMI'm thinking it had to happen that way so Jesus would be a model to us all.
His example was in His life and in His overcoming of sin, according to 1Peter 2, Hebrews 5, and elsewhere, but the Cross was very specifically a legal transaction according to 1Peter 2:24 and innumerable other passages besides. Our part of His sufferings is standing against all that we're redeemed from by His sufferings. That's our fellowship, or being a partaker in the fellowship of His sufferings. Our part is our deliverance from each aspect of the curse. Where we don't press in, in any aspect of our lives, that's an aspect where we shame the covenant, and Hebrews 10 indicates that hostility is created with the Holy Spirit over it.
Thanks Martin. I'm just reading Hebrews 2 and its starting to make a bit of sense, but I have more studying to do. Heb 2:14-18 are saying Christ had to be made like us and die like us so He could defeat Satan, and so He could help us when we are tempted.
Regarding "penal substitution" - I thought this was the idea that Christ died and went to "hell" in our place?
Quote from: jenna on May 15, 2009, 11:31:26 PM
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 08:32:49 PM
Yeah I think this is just more baggage from our former ET beliefs. I myself am still trying to get rid of it. Its like we are all unworthy to be in the presence of God and only deserve hell - yet God made us that way and put us in the situation to begin with. HUH?
Anyway this idea of everyone deserving hell must have come from somewhere. What I have come up with so far is this:
- none, no not one are good (we are all sinners)
- we are all depraved and cannot do good
- the wages of sin is death (death in sin=hell for you)
There is biblical basis for this, but it must be twisted to come to the conclusion that hell is fair for everyone. And you have to conveniently forget that God made us all this way (with flesh).
I'm starting to realize its something more like this:
- God intended us to be sinners for the very reason that we could experience sin (and evil).
- He provided Christ as the way out of our sins, and as the model of behavior that we should all follow
- eventually we will all be completely Christ-like and "in Christ", once the flesh has died.
The flesh is necessary to show us sin and evil. Once we have learned what good & evil is and what sin & righteousness is, the flesh is no longer needed and is destroyed (death). Then only the righteousness and goodness will be left in the spirit. The flesh will always sin, even if the spirit is willing.
Am I making sense here?
Most of this makes sense, except for the part where you say that God intended for us to be sinners so we could experience sin and evil. I don't believe this at all. God's intention was for us to be perfect. It is us who makes the choice not to be.
Hi Jenna,
This is just based on the fact that God has declared everything that will happen (Isaiah 46:10-11), and He had perfect foreknowledge of what would happen when He created everything... So He knew/planned (whatever you want to call it) we would sin and planned Jesus to be the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Also this verse from the Concordant pretty much says it:
Ecc 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it
Anyway this will just lead into a big freewill/predestination debate, so just refer to one of the other threads archived around here if you want to go down that path... :winkgrin:
Peace.
willieH: Hi Legoman & Sparrow! :hithere:
Quote from: sparrow on May 15, 2009, 08:46:42 PM
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 08:32:49 PM
Yeah I think this is just more baggage from our former ET beliefs. I myself am still trying to get rid of it. Its like we are all unworthy to be in the presence of God and only deserve hell - yet God made us that way and put us in the situation to begin with. HUH?
Anyway this idea of everyone deserving hell must have come from somewhere. What I have come up with so far is this:
- none, no not one are good (we are all sinners)
- we are all depraved and cannot do good
- the wages of sin is death (death in sin=hell for you)
There is biblical basis for this, but it must be twisted to come to the conclusion that hell is fair for everyone. And you have to conveniently forget that God made us all this way (with flesh).
I'm starting to realize its something more like this:
- God intended us to be sinners for the very reason that we could experience sin (and evil).
- He provided Christ as the way out of our sins, and as the model of behavior that we should all follow
- eventually we will all be completely Christ-like and "in Christ", once the flesh has died.
The flesh is necessary to show us sin and evil. Once we have learned what good & evil is and what sin & righteousness is, the flesh is no longer needed and is destroyed (death). Then only the righteousness and goodness will be left in the spirit. The flesh will always sin, even if the spirit is willing.
Am I making sense here?
You are making PERFECT sense, legoman.
Big DITTO to what SPARROW just said! :2thumbs: :gimmefive:
...willieH :cloud9:
willieH: Hi Legoman! :hithere:
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 08:10:47 PM
I see this come up constantly: We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.
Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?
Scriptures showing we all deserve death would be useful as well.
Thanks,
Legoman
No matter what
MANY foolish men shall say, ...NO ONE "deserves"
Hell... :thumbdown:
GOD just me a new grandson (in december) who
WILL be a
sinner... Does he deserve
HELL? Of course he does not!! ...he is part of the "
WORLD" that
GOD SO LOVES --
John 3:16 -- and that GOD sent His Son
NOT to CONDEMN --
John 3:17 -- so why would he "deserve"
HELL?Well, the TRUTH is, that my grandson "deserves" the
LOVE of GOD which sent His SON, ...NOT... to CONDEMN him... But to SAVE him... :dontknow:
:Peace:
...willieH :cloud9:
Great post willie and congrats on the new grandson!
Quote from: martincisneros on May 15, 2009, 10:52:33 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 15, 2009, 10:00:57 PM
BTW I wonder if Jews believe in ET stuff?
They have a long tradition and can read the text in its original language without all kind of translation twists.
I wonder what religion would look like if everyone was fluent in ancient Greek and Hebrew.
It would look about the same as it looks now. Rabbis have gotten around many of the Messianic passages by claiming that passages like Isaiah 53 are talking about Israel. So, it can be staring you right in the face with no translational intermediaries and traditions of going somewhere else with it are still possible.
Agreed. I'm sure Rabbis also twist words.
The difference is that the Jews can read the original words that are free of doctrine. They at least have clean source.
The translations are (allmost) all poluted with doctrine.
I think a KJV only or a YLT/Rotherham only translation world would look diffrently.
Its far easier to teach a corrupted ET doctrine with KJV as support than if your listeners verify everything in their YLT.
Hebrew goes one step further in that I think.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 15, 2009, 09:54:28 PM
Quote from: sven on May 15, 2009, 09:22:00 PM
For example if we had the chance to torture Hitler, Stalin or anybody similar for years or decades, they might possibly deserve it, but even if, who of us would actually do it?
I wouldn't do it and I guess very few people would do it, torturing a man like Hitler for decades, wouldn't make this one's worse than Hitler?
Many would even be able shooting them from close range.
Anyone is able to kill in a rage. Like survival or protecting family.
But when that rage is ebbed away I think only the ones that 'deserve' torture are able to torture.
QuoteI see this come up constantly: We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.
Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?
I think the quotes are correct. But the understanding linked to it is wrong.
"All have sinned." "Wages of sin is death."
I think that can be backed up with verses.
Things go wrong when 'it must be that way' gets added.
God wrote death but actually that was a slip of the pen and He intended 'tortured forever'.
Many religious people have turned into some sort of hooligans. Beat the crap out of the supporters of the other team; instead of together enjoying their sport (=religion)
Feel small and useless? Just join a religion and look down on others.
Just ignore the fact that you should help others up instead of kicking them down according to your own religion.
Superiority complex...
Hits the nail on the head.
QuoteNone of us should be throwing ourselves out with the bath water with statements about not being complete in Christ already. Yeah, you are.
Ok for purpose of discussion lets suppose that is exactly the way it is
Then I have to ask why is Christ 2 different then Christ 1 who walked in the image and likeness of a God who does not change?
Having triumphed over sin and death Christ and the Apostles went about bringing forth the fruit of the kingdom healing the multitudes of all their diseases .
In Christ is to be Christ, no less and no different..... the same anointing that is on the head is on the body and as were told in the scriptures "by their fruit you shall know them so........... show me the fruit !!!
Being in the promise land reaps a harvest of grapes the size of cantaloupes but every time I took to look to where the voice comes from that says "Lo here is Christ",........... all I see is raisins. (That is NOT directed at anyone)
In Christ is the hope of Glory and there plenty of Scriptures that point to this anointing and presence of the Lord that has not yet happened........ however to say this is it and all there is to come is to take away the vision and the hope of those who look forward to that day. The fact that there is a promise yet to come is why all those who unfairly died without receiving the promise did so without a whimper............ because they like others unto this day know that there is more good news to come and we have yet to see the barley company who are the firstfruits manifest the anointing that is on them. (IMO that hold up MIGHT well be a case of identity theft and people falling short of the anointing that is ALREADY on them)
IMO until we see a cleansing of the body through the truth of the scriptures being taught, sin that is a principality and living in the flesh as the serpent seed still within Christians is going to remain healthy and continue to fertilize the tares....... to deny it's presence is to call the Bible a lie.
On the positive side I believe He. 9:28 speaks of a purification of those who will become High Priest after the manner of Melchezedec........ on the sad side I also believe that there are priests who will never become High Priests.
Blessings
Doug
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Agree Zeek. Paul said he constantly did what he didn't want, and vice versa. He talked about the law of sin in his flesh. He also indicated he would be (and needed to be) delivered from that at some point in the future. However, on the other hand, it seems to me he didn't believe all his shortcoming (sin) was laid to his account [?] (not saying I fully understand this), as he said it was no longer him that sinned, but the sin that dwelled in him. Although we are all on varying levels of growth; some much more mature than others, some flat out carnal; I seriously doubt any of us have passed the Apostle Paul in our maturity, and all still have much room for growth. IMO, even though I often may not recognize it, the shortcomings and need for mercy and growth are always present; and God is constantly working His renewal through me (us) to bring me (us) where I (we) need to be. And apparently some of us won't get there in this lifetime, and will be saved through destruction. I'm sure, best to be obedient now.
Quote from: Zeek on May 16, 2009, 09:23:35 PM
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Boy, this sure has been a recurring theme for me the last few days.
Can't believe once again... here it is.
in my face.
well, actually I can... :happy3:
thanks Zeek.
The seen is temporary, the unseen..eternal.
Quote from: jabcat on May 16, 2009, 09:26:35 PM
Agree Zeek. Paul said he constantly did what he didn't want, and vice versa. He talked about the law of sin in his flesh. He also indicated he would be (and needed to be) delivered from that at some point in the future. However, on the other hand, it seems to me he didn't believe all his shortcoming (sin) was laid to his account [?] (not saying I fully understand this), as he said it was no longer him that sinned, but the sin that dwelled in him. Although we are all on varying levels of growth; some much more mature than others, some flat out carnal; I seriously doubt any of us have passed the Apostle Paul in our maturity, and all still have much room for growth. IMO, even though I often may not recognize it, the shortcomings and need for mercy and growth are always present; and God is constantly working His renewal through me (us) to bring me (us) where I (we) need to be. And apparently some of us won't get there in this lifetime, and will be saved through destruction. I'm sure, best to be obedient now.
Good post :thumbsup:
How many times have I come to the point "oh wretched man that I am" unable to apprehend who has apprehended me.
Quotethe shortcomings and need for mercy and growth are always present; and God is constantly working His renewal through me
Amen......... so I have prayed that it is good that I am afflicted even though the flames affliction are not fun. Because of my weakness I understand that the strength that is needed is not mine but His. Rather than fool myself thinking that I can overcome I pray to be able to love as He so loved the world.
Jn. 3:16 does not say how that He loved the world so much but stated the manner "so" as to how that He loves the way that He does. This is the difference (IMO) between love and charity because with the knowledge of how all have been made subject to vanity and that all are gripped with the inability to produce as He produces consequently rather than condemn we have compassion for those whom are in bondage to sin. Having one time been in bondage ourselves to sin we turn the other cheek and forgive the world for its sins just He does for it and for us.
However because we are sinned against by persons who UNKNOWINGLY fight against principalities , we appear on their behalf as intercessors so that mercy and truth kiss may each other. Then while the presence of the Lord descends upon those who have sinned the process starts of passing from condemnation of the law to giving out a portion of grace, faith that is also a noun and not just a verb appears within us and we then become "in Christ" prepared by Him to bring forth good works to a world that awaits our manifestation
I do believe this is how we become "after melchezedec". Because we went into the presence of the Lord for our own sins we are to also go 'back" a second time for the sins of others cleansing us of the law of sin so that we too may then appear without sin.
Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation..
Hope nobody took offense to that....... last time I said that we had go "back" for a second helping of grace to be complete some folks got upset.
Blessings
Doug
I think we all have our part in hell which is here in this mortal realm. We are appointed to suffer and to die according to the scriptures. To first bear the image of the earthly, then the heavenly. If we are sanctified, we will do all we can to avoid offending others who are made in God's image and will seek peace (not war) with all people. I don't think we have to deny that this world is a hellish place though.
Anne
Quote from: Livelystone on May 16, 2009, 11:27:19 PM
Hope nobody took offense to that....... last time I said that we had go "back" for a second helping of grace to be complete some folks got upset.
Blessings
Doug
Yeah, I'm really mad! :angry1:
Just kidding...I need grace and mercy every minute of every day :thumbsup:. (thanks)
My point is that Jesus came into this world to conquer death by dying. I know it is natural to shrink from death, but I don't think it is scriptural/healthy.
LUKE - chapter 24
The Road to Emmaus
13 And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 And they were talking with each other about all these things which had taken place. 15 While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. 16 But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. 17 And He said to them, "What are these words that you are exchanging with one another as you are walking?" And they stood still, looking sad. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, "Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?" 19 And He said to them, "What things?" And they said to Him, "The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. 21 "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened. 22 "But also some women among us amazed us. When they were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said that He was alive. 24 "Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just exactly as the women also had said; but Him they did not see." 25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. 28 And they approached the village where they were going, and He acted as though He were going farther. 29 But they urged Him, saying, "Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day is now nearly over." So He went in to stay with them. 30 When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight. 32 They said to one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?" 33 And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found gathered together the eleven and those who were with them, 34 saying, "The Lord has really risen and has appeared to Simon." 35 They began to relate their experiences on the road and how He was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread.
There used to be hymns sung about embracing death with gladness....
http://nethymnal.org/htm/w/s/w/wswsaf2d.htm
Why should we start and fear to die?
What tim'rous worms we mortals are!
Death is the gate of endless joy,
And yet we dread to enter there.
The pains, the groans, the dying strife,
Fright our approaching souls away;
Still we shrink back again to life,
Fond of our prison and our clay.
O, if my Lord would come and meet,
My soul should stretch her wings in haste,
Fly fearless through death's iron gate,
Nor feel the terrors as she passed.
Jesus can make a dying bed
Feel soft as downy pillows are,
While on His breast I lean my head,
And breathe my life out sweetly there.
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on May 17, 2009, 01:20:14 AM
I think we all have our part in hell which is here in this mortal realm. We are appointed to suffer and to die according to the scriptures. To first bear the image of the earthly, then the heavenly. If we are sanctified, we will do all we can to avoid offending others who are made in God's image and will seek peace (not war) with all people. I don't think we have to deny that this world is a hellish place though.
Anne
Good understanding!Yea! Anne! So simple, this is the commandment
I have in the beginning. Love God and Love your neighbor as
yourself.
QuoteMy point is that Jesus came into this world to conquer death by dying. I know it is natural to shrink from death, but I don't think it is scriptural/healthy.
I agree and there is much way of scripture to support your opinion
Paul and the others died daily so that Christ would live and rule within them.
There are two Adams in those who have followed Jesus to the Cross.......... anytime that we decide to live again and remove ourselves from the Cross we put Him back up on it.
For us to be resurrected we have to take up our Cross and follow Him to the Promise land that is on the other side of the Jordan.... the river of death.
We were not told to go around and bypass the Cross but to follow Him
1Cr 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:Blessings
Doug
:cloud9: Amen Doug....He spoke to me one day and told me the manifestation of the Omega (Christ one with His body, a many-membered body) and the Alpha (Christ one with His body from the foundation of the world, a many-membered body), were one and the same. The harvest is the same as the Seed that was planted.
And Zeek....can I expound a little on what He made life in me with that scripture?
Put another way to aid clarity, the evidence (temporal) is what you had faith to MANIFEST thru and FROM the realm of the Spirit (eternal). Yet it is not of ourselves, for He gives the gift of faith to manifest it.
This is the principle for healing, miracles, gifts, natural provisions, even manifesting Christ in the fullness. It is not of ourselves, lest any man should boast. He gives every man a measure of faith to receive Him and then builds up that initial faith to make it grow.
This is why Christ in us is the hope of glory (manifestation), and why us in Christ builds up our most holy faith, ie. praying IN the Holy Ghost (which is the Spirit of the risen Christ). Blessings....
You know, I think I'd be hard pressed to say that anybody deserves Hell. After all, God isn't morally obligated to send anybody to Hell, as he was not morally obligated to make man in the first place. In fact, I would say that God is not morally obligated to do anything. I believe he does what he does because he is Good, not because he's constrained by some eternal moral law that God is subject to. In that sense, when people say that God is obligated to send people to Hell because of his justice they simply do not understand that if that were true then God would be subject to another Law besides his Will, meaning, essentially, that he ISN'T the supreme power in the universe. We're only deserving as much punishment as GOD SEES FIT TO PUNISH US FOR OUR WRONG DOINGS. He can have as much mercy on us as he wishes and he would commit no wrong if he chose not to punish us. He sets up the rules. Rules don't set him up. The idea that we deserve eternal punishment because we committed sin against an eternal being is a joke. That's not to say that God does not punish us, just that God has the moral card deck in his hand, as opposed to the other way around.
I could be a bit off here, but if any wisdom runs through that post, thank God. :bigGrin:
Once again, which hell? We were all deserving of death (state of death, hades), but Jesus took care of that problem by tasting that death for every man.
Quote from: Doc on May 20, 2009, 09:46:35 PM
Once again, which hell? We were all deserving of death (state of death, hades), but Jesus took care of that problem by tasting that death for every man.
Not sure if you were replying to my post or not, but I was thinking of the general "Christian" version of "hell": eternal torment in fire/eternal conscious torment.
Quote from: Tim B on May 20, 2009, 10:41:27 PM
Quote from: Doc on May 20, 2009, 09:46:35 PM
Once again, which hell? We were all deserving of death (state of death, hades), but Jesus took care of that problem by tasting that death for every man.
Not sure if you were replying to my post or not, but I was thinking of the general "Christian" version of "hell": eternal torment in fire/eternal conscious torment.
Which is precisely the point of my question. They don't know what (the) "hell" they're talking about.
So, ask them; "to which "hell" are you referring, Gehenna, Tartarus or Hades?" Be prepared for the blank stare...
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on May 17, 2009, 10:57:27 AM
There used to be hymns sung about embracing death with gladness....
http://nethymnal.org/htm/w/s/w/wswsaf2d.htm
Why should we start and fear to die?
What tim'rous worms we mortals are!
Death is the gate of endless joy,
And yet we dread to enter there.
The pains, the groans, the dying strife,
Fright our approaching souls away;
Still we shrink back again to life,
Fond of our prison and our clay.
O, if my Lord would come and meet,
My soul should stretch her wings in haste,
Fly fearless through death's iron gate,
Nor feel the terrors as she passed.
Jesus can make a dying bed
Feel soft as downy pillows are,
While on His breast I lean my head,
And breathe my life out sweetly there.
Amen, sista.
You are the Work of His Hands, the master potter, for whom
He "made" a sabbath.
If He designed a sabbath for you, that means He didn't make
YOU for the sabbath.
"He" must not think of you as worthy of hell.
Oh, what LOVE He has revealed to us.
Quote from: Redlettervoice on May 21, 2009, 05:11:27 AM
You are the Work of His Hands, the master potter, for whom
He "made" a sabbath.
If He designed a sabbath for you, that means He didn't make
YOU for the sabbath.
"He" must not think of you as worthy of hell.
Oh, what LOVE He has revealed to us.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
He thought us "worthy" to suffer and die for
Quote from: Doc on May 20, 2009, 11:07:46 PM
Quote from: Tim B on May 20, 2009, 10:41:27 PM
Quote from: Doc on May 20, 2009, 09:46:35 PM
Once again, which hell? We were all deserving of death (state of death, hades), but Jesus took care of that problem by tasting that death for every man.
Not sure if you were replying to my post or not, but I was thinking of the general "Christian" version of "hell": eternal torment in fire/eternal conscious torment.
Which is precisely the point of my question. They don't know what (the) "hell" they're talking about.
So, ask them; "to which "hell" are you referring, Gehenna, Tartarus or Hades?" Be prepared for the blank stare...
Haha, that's awesome! I should totally do that xD
Quote from: jenna on May 15, 2009, 11:31:26 PM
Most of this makes sense, except for the part where you say that God intended for us to be sinners so we could experience sin and evil. I don't believe this at all. God's intention was for us to be perfect. It is us who makes the choice not to be.
Back before the foundations of the world were made the Morning Stars heard of a plan that caused them all to leap for joy. (Job 38:7)
Personally I believe that is when God shared His plan with them for man and what it would accomplish.
That He would create a perfect place with perfect people and a place that by law evil would show up. Just like the universal rule of law governing gravity that holds it all together so is the law of opposites such as poles or magnets. Paul understood this and it allowed him to say that when he would do good evil was always present......... so way back in the garden that was created perfect by law evil appeared. However God had already given the commandment that "thou shalt not" and consequently.......
sin took on death.!!!Think about that for a moment.............. EVIL THAT BECAME SIN TOOK ON DEATH.!!!............... PRAISE THE LORD AND LET ME SAY AGAIN........... EVIL THAT BECAME SIN TOOK ON DEATH !!!
Now you can see why the Morning Stars jumped for joy........ and why the suffering we endure for a season is nothing compared to the joy when we arrive at a time in existence where there is no sin and no evil
Because on a place called earth evil became sin that consequently took on death. Then God sent His Son to redeem us from the state of death that we were born into.
We serve an awesome God whose ways are not our ways but are not beyond being found out by those who seek to know Him.
Blessings
Doug
:cloud9: Doug, I've had a long day and I'm tired, and I can just tell there is a really profound point here in what you said, but it's just not "hitting" me :mblush:.......and I really WANT it to "hit" me. Could you break the part in bold down more somehow for me? Thanks......Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 24, 2009, 03:11:13 AM
:cloud9: Doug, I've had a long day and I'm tired, and I can just tell there is a really profound point here in what you said, but it's just not "hitting" me :mblush:.......and I really WANT it to "hit" me. Could you break the part in bold down more somehow for me? Thanks......Blessings....
In your case I do not feel that anything has to be explained today that will not become revealed to you tomorrow but because you asked.........
By creating a place where evil became sin that took on death this earth has become the burial ground for all sin and evil...... Praise God.
It was the only way where a place could be provided for all eternity where sin and evil would never be able to show up at because by law it had to show up wherever good existed that was first on earth but then because it dies here, that automactically created a place where sin will not show up because it died after it came here to earth........ sorry satan but the buck stope here LOL.
But because of Christ we get to go that place that is a place that consist only of righteousness because no sin will ever enter in there.
Going beyond that when Jesus said that He went to prepare a place where we could be together He has come into the hearts of sinful men to prepare to a place that has already been condemned to death. People wonder why God would allow so much evil to exist on earth but the answer is simple....... the earth through the spirits and souls of man that have the serpent seed have become the kingdoms of Satan given to him by God. However man is then 'saved: through being given the Holy Spirit that will ascend unto heaven because that is where it came from versus the first Adam who was the "earthly spirit of man with the serpent seed" that in man will die while we go on to life eternal via the Holy Spirit that is the free gift of salvation.
I find it very ironic that that the church and in particular the UR movement that puts down the law so badly will in the end be saved by the same law that they put down.......... but God does have a way of humbling the proud
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on May 24, 2009, 04:59:37 AM
.... the earth through the spirits and souls of man that have the serpent seed have become the kingdoms of Satan given to him by God. However man is then 'saved:
I find it very ironic that that the church and in particular the UR movement that puts down the law so badly will in the end be saved by the same law that they put down.......... but God does have a way of humbling the proud
Doug
Hi Doug...is the following connected at all with your beliefs on this? If not, or if different somehow, would you care to clarify? Some discussion here to clarify would probably be appropriate connected to your last post, but if it is a big topic, then we can split it to another thread if need be to keep from hijacking this one. Thanks, James.
From Wikipedia; "Serpent seed, dual seed or two-seedline is a controversial minority teaching in Christianity (and rarely Judaism) that the serpent in the Garden of Eden had sexual intercourse with Eve, and that Cain was the offspring of the union. This differs from the more common religious belief that Cain was the son of Adam and Eve (the first humans). Today it is often associated with parts of the Christian Identity movement holding that Jews are the descendants of Cain and thus the serpent.[1][2] The idea has also existed in several other contexts, and major proponents include Daniel Parker (1781-1844),[3] William M. Branham (1909-1967)[4] and Arnold Murray.[5]
And this; "God made Adam a perfect man, and the name God gave to him--"Adam"--is a word which means "the man who blushes" or "the red blushing one."
"Adam" refers to the rosy wine red mark of God's blood and His love for Adam which was always placed only upon the reddening faces of Adam's true sons to differentiate Adam from all of the other people on Earth--who are the people of Satan.
The only people in the world who blush are the Northern European People, for they are the only people true to Adam's seedline and to no others."
:cloud9: Thanks Doug. I read it, but I'm going to re-read it tomorrow when I'm hopefully, a little more "with it". Blessings....
P.S. I'm no expert on this topic (Adam's race, Serpent Seed Doctrine) etc., haven't really studied it a lot, so I don't really have a lot of info/insight on it. Seems a good topic/discussion though.
Hi jabcat
I could have left the term of the serpent seed out of my post and still given the same message....... sorry about deviating from the OP
I do not buy into the definition you shared of the doctrine of the serpent seed yet it is still an important part of the knowledge that is tied into many other things (and because many folks are uncomfortable with it) ...... such as why John said that any man who says he has no sin is a liar so If you would like to start a thread on it we can discuss it there and not hijack this thread
But tomorrow would be a better time for me.
Blessings
Doug
OK, I'll think about it, and if you have some further thoughts maybe you can go ahead and jump on it first. We'll see, thanks.
willieH: Hi Jenna... :hithere:
Just wanted to say Hi & let you know I got kicked off the "evidence" forum... CSLewisLover gave me the "heave-ho" last night, because I objected to him basing his disagreement with me, using the "Moody Handbook of Theology" as his proofs... :rolleye:
A comment about your reply to Legoman... I only wish to be informative, not arguementative... :nod: :friendstu: ...you are more than welcome to disagree with me if you wish... :happygrin:
Quote from: jenna on May 15, 2009, 11:31:26 PM
Most of this makes sense, except for the part where you say that God intended for us to be sinners so we could experience sin and evil. I don't believe this at all. God's intention was for us to be perfect. It is us who makes the choice not to be.
Are you saying that an "intention" of the PERFECT God got thwarted by man? How can that be? :Chinscratch:
If we say that "it IS God's intention to make us PERFECT", I wholly agree, for it is a process that includes suffering which is at the hand of EVIL --
Heb 2:10 -- for it is via suffering that
CHRIST found perfection (completion)
Was it not GOD who designed what sin
IS, and
what it entails? And was it not GOD that Created
EVIL, which, when practiced, produces SIN? --
Isaiah 45:7We certainly DO choose, but those "choices" only occur according to the PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, which sees ALL things before they occur... Our "choices" cannot be otherwise. Contrary to the thought of many, ...IN REALITY, ...there are NO ACTUAL alternative scenarios... only IMAGINED ones....
Let me put it this way... When GOD "personally" wrote His
WORD (the LAW) it was WRITTEN IN STONE... this was NOT done by coincidence it was PURPOSED. That which is IN HIS
WORD, is UNCHANGEABLE and "written IN STONE", ...and He PURPOSELY "wrote" this way for us to see that example... :declare: :reachout:
NONE of the things which are "written" in the
WORD, could have happened otherwise. NONE... and so REALITY follows this same program... what HAPPENS, ...HAPPENS. The alternative thinkings that men have (that they "could've" chosen otherwise) ...are nothing but IMAGINATIONS, and they DO and DID, ...NOT HAPPEN... :dontknow:
It is my observation that, too many times... even believers think they "choose" independently from GOD... this cannot be, and Scripture more than notes it to be so...
For we are CLAY which is molded
BY the Great POTTER... and in the
HAND of the POTTER is the CLAY
MARRED --
Jer 18:4 If we consider GOD as PERFECT, and we become "MARRED" while in His HAND, then how can that IMPERFECTION ...NOT... be INTENDED? If we look at it as UNINTENDED, then a MISTAKE occured in GOD's processing and He can no longer be considered PERFECT! :mshock: ... :mnah:
Of the
same lump is a vessel of DISHONOR made BY HIM --
Rom 9:21 -- as is the vessel of HONOR... If He is MAKING a vessel of DISHONOR, then it is part of HIS INTENTION... and that part is PERFECT as well, for it contributes to the GLORY of the HONOR which is to come by the comparison to it, of the VESSEL of HONOR to be revealed!
GOD decided,
before the Creation was even manifest, that
CHRIST would DIE at the hands of men --
Rev 13:8 -- This could NOT have been avoided by
CHRIST, nor by the men that did it...
If it WOULD have been avoided, then IMPERFECTION would be found IN GOD... and what He "decided", did not in fact, occur...
The very ACT of
CHRIST being slain (killed), is a SIN... and was INTENDED by GOD, to happen, just as it occured -- before even one grain of sand was manifest in Creation...
GOD takes ALL things which include both GOOD
and EVIL, and makes them work together for
GOOD... The only reason EVIL has been TEMPORARILY existent, is to be a memorial (not practice) that FOREVER stands to GLORIFY the GREATNESS of the GOOD which GOD ...
IS...
The GREAT LIGHT of the FATHER (of LIGHTS [us] --
John 1:9 -- James 1:17) is shown to be its BRIGHTEST, in the
FACE of DARKNESS... and that "DARKNESS" NEVER has, and NEVER WILL, ...have ANY POWER over it...
...willieH :cloud9:
:goodpost: Willi
:cloud9: Doug, I re-read it today and have you ever had one of those things where you're sitting on the edge of your seat, because you can almost hear whatever the "missing link" that is necessary for Him add another "layer" of understanding in you? Well, that's where I'm at with that. Just like how He does us with scriptures, sometimes I have to read something half a dozen times before the life of it is released. So.....still reading.......Blessings.......
And Willie, I second that :thumbsup:
Quote from: willieH on May 24, 2009, 09:31:32 PM
Just wanted to say Hi & let you know I got kicked off the "evidence" forum... CSLewisLover gave me the "heave-ho" last night, because I objected to him basing his disagreement with me, using the "Moody Handbook of Theology" as his proofs... :rolleye:
Haven't read your whole post [yet] as of when I'm giving this reply, but I just needed a minute to bust out laughing! :rolllol:
Hey WillieH,
I think a really good Biblical response to the same question you answered is to quote Romans 11:32.
"32For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike]."
God set us up for this ("this" being our fallen world). So he could rescue us and show us mercy. :bigGrin:
Awesome message btw, I'd just thought I'd share with you this verse because I really like it now that I believe in UR!
willieH: Hi Tim... :cloud9:
Quote from: Tim B on June 01, 2009, 01:37:03 AM
Hey WillieH,
I think a really good Biblical response to the same question you answered is to quote Romans 11:32.
"32For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike]."
God set us up for this ("this" being our fallen world). So he could rescue us and show us mercy. :bigGrin:
Awesome message btw, I'd just thought I'd share with you this verse because I really like it now that I believe in UR!
I agree brother T... Great verse! ...I use it quite often in my postings on ET forums... :laughing7:
Quick question, when did you come to believe UR? How long did you believe otherwise? (ET or Annhilation?)
It would be way cool to hear your testimony and journey! :friendstu:
...willieH :laughing7:
Quote from: willieH on June 15, 2009, 03:00:12 AM
willieH: Hi Tim... :cloud9:
Quote from: Tim B on June 01, 2009, 01:37:03 AM
Hey WillieH,
I think a really good Biblical response to the same question you answered is to quote Romans 11:32.
"32For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike]."
God set us up for this ("this" being our fallen world). So he could rescue us and show us mercy. :bigGrin:
Awesome message btw, I'd just thought I'd share with you this verse because I really like it now that I believe in UR!
I agree brother T... Great verse! ...I use it quite often in my postings on ET forums... :laughing7:
Quick question, when did you come to believe UR? How long did you believe otherwise? (ET or Annhilation?)
It would be way cool to hear your testimony and journey! :friendstu:
...willieH :laughing7:
Well, I was raised in a Christian family so I always believed in, more or less, God and Jesus and Hell (ET/eternal conscious torment). Within the past year/years (maybe 2-3 years) however, I tried to understand the concept behind ET in my head. Why would God damn so many people to Hell, especially people I cared about, and my family (not my immediate family) and friends? I couldn't understand for the life of me. Sure, there was "answers" to my questions, but none of them made me feel better. One particular evening I REALLY, REALLY asked God about it. Basically I said/asked, "Now, I know about Hell, and the idea behind it, of it supposedly being justice and all, but I can't, for the life of me, see how it's fair! If it's fair, or if it's not fair, I'd really like to have your input on it. Whatever the answer, whether Hell is what I think it is, or isn't, please guide me to the truth!" So, interestingly enough, while surfing an Intelligent Design blog I ran across a fellow believer who, rather than believing in ET, believed in annihilation. Interested I asked him about WHY he believed in annihilation what backed up his beliefs in such a Hell. He gave me his evidence, which he stated was mainly the Bible (and it was), and after further researching I felt like this must be a confirmation from God that what I believed was Hell (that it is ET) was not true, let alone biblical. This gave me a bit more peace, in my mind, as to the fate of the lost. I held on to this idea for several months, yet, I STILL couldn't wrap my head around it. I was still stuck thinkin', "What about all the people I care about? What about the "good" people out there that never come to know you? Will they just be destroyed and I won't ever be able to see them again?" My sister entertained ideas of Christian Universalism, as well as did my mother. And although my mother tended to side with my views on annihilation, I believe my sister continued to entertain the idea of UR (and funny thing is, she's only 13!!). So UR wasn't, at this point in my life, a completely foreign idea to me. Then, one day I remember talking to one of my parents' friends about God and what I thought about Hell (aka believing it to now be annihilation), and I was, because of my research, beginning to ponder the idea of certain non-believers becoming saved despite not knowing Christ within their Earthly life (which I felt was possibly backed up in some specific verse in Romans). I remember saying, "I just don't think I can look at God the way I used to." And still the thought of losing my friends continued to haunt my thoughts, and so, finally decided, "What the heck!" and I looked up Christian Universalism, expecting it to be full of wishful thinking and unbiblical. But, as it turns out, I was completely wrong. (Among the sites that proved me wrong was this site!) Once I realized that many early Christians believed in UR; that Paul (the apostle) seemed to support the idea of UR; and most importantly, that aionion wasn't "eternal" and that "Hell" wasn't actually in the scriptures, but rather sheol, Hades, gehenna and Tarturus. Being a very deep thinking man, and always wanting to back up my beliefs with "evidence" I felt like I could finally rest at peace knowing that God was really going to save ALL MEN, including those I cared about, and I didn't even have to fear him myself (as believers so often do), and I had proof to back it up! Plus, to say the very least, it felt right with m conscious. How many ETers deny their consciouses to uphold a doctrine that just
must be true!
Now basically my entire family believes in UR. My sister got excited once I realized that there was support for her views, my mom totally agrees with the basics behind UR (that all will be saved), my dad is really leaning towards UR, but my brother, unfortunately, still holds to ET/eternal conscious torment. On another note: two parents that are my parent's friends also seem to be really leaning towards/agree with UR. Their daughter said that my thoughts on religion (UR and such) are the closest to hers of anybody she's ever known. Their son seems to have his own thoughts on religion (he believes in God, but not Hell, but I'm not really sure what else). So a lot of blessings have come through God leading me to UR!! :bigGrin:
So, thinking back over my life I probably believed in ET for roughly 10 years, annihilation for five-ish months, and UR for just the past month or two. But it's been a glorious two months!! :bigGrin:
And that's more or less my testimony as of now. lol
One very cool thing IMO is that it doesn't affect God in the least what we believe. Whether annihilation, eternal torment or all saved at some point. It doesn't change a thing in the grand scheme of things.
I'm not saying we shouldn't speak our beliefs, we should. We should also live them but still it does not change the way God/Life is moving. It moves onward, shaping the wrong and the right.
It's good for us to discuss things IMO but we should never fear or worry or argue in a frustrated way. If we have faith that God is moving like a bulldozer, slowly but surely, we will speak our minds and smile at all opposing views. We will smile not because we are smug in our beliefs, thinking our beliefs are right and others are wrong but we will smile knowing that even our beliefs, where in error, will be plowed over as the All moves over us.
Just my :2c:
cp
I hear ya CP.
Slowly but surely.
But, as a footnote,
Search the scriptures sometime for the word:
"suddenly."
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 16, 2009, 03:05:33 AM
I hear ya CP.
Slowly but surely.
But, as a footnote,
Search the scriptures sometime for the word:
"suddenly."
I think I hear ya BServ. God can move in a way that makes lightening seem very slow when He wants to.
Not hard for a Being not really connected to the constricts of time and space. Fast or slow is not an issue for the Infinite.
cp
Ahh yes,
But more than only a Being.
He is Our Father.
Our Creator.
No Renaissance white beard here.
A loving, caring, Father.
With, now, a family.
Mark 14:36
36 - and he said, `Abba, Father; all things are possible to Thee; make this cup pass from me; but, not what I will, but what Thou.'
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Romans 8:15
15 - for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, `Abba -- Father.'
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Galatians 4:6
6 - and because ye are sons, God did send forth the spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, `Abba, Father!'
I hear ya BServ but I'm thinking when Jesus said 'Father', an image of God was in His mind much different than when we say Father.
Jesus seemed to always be trying to get us to see God in a much grander way than we normally would.
cp
Ah! Yes!
Our Father (of course) is not the same as many call "dad" in their physical youth.
He is the Father of Spirits.
As our spiritual-man matures, we see Him as He is.
My God, My Lord, My Savior, My Father
My Friend
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnKlyCF5TIQ&feature=related
willieH: Hi Tim... :happygrin:
So glad that GOD has chosen to lead you into the
TRUTH of the Gospel brother! :bgdance:
Quote from: Tim B on June 16, 2009, 01:09:31 AM
Well, I was raised in a Christian family so I always believed in, more or less, God and Jesus and Hell (ET/eternal conscious torment). Within the past year/years (maybe 2-3 years) however, I tried to understand the concept behind ET in my head. Why would God damn so many people to Hell, especially people I cared about, and my family (not my immediate family) and friends? I couldn't understand for the life of me. Sure, there was "answers" to my questions, but none of them made me feel better. One particular evening I REALLY, REALLY asked God about it. Basically I said/asked, "Now, I know about Hell, and the idea behind it, of it supposedly being justice and all, but I can't, for the life of me, see how it's fair! If it's fair, or if it's not fair, I'd really like to have your input on it. Whatever the answer, whether Hell is what I think it is, or isn't, please guide me to the truth!" So, interestingly enough, while surfing an Intelligent Design blog I ran across a fellow believer who, rather than believing in ET, believed in annihilation. Interested I asked him about WHY he believed in annihilation what backed up his beliefs in such a Hell. He gave me his evidence, which he stated was mainly the Bible (and it was), and after further researching I felt like this must be a confirmation from God that what I believed was Hell (that it is ET) was not true, let alone biblical. This gave me a bit more peace, in my mind, as to the fate of the lost. I held on to this idea for several months, yet, I STILL couldn't wrap my head around it. I was still stuck thinkin', "What about all the people I care about? What about the "good" people out there that never come to know you? Will they just be destroyed and I won't ever be able to see them again?" My sister entertained ideas of Christian Universalism, as well as did my mother. And although my mother tended to side with my views on annihilation, I believe my sister continued to entertain the idea of UR (and funny thing is, she's only 13!!). So UR wasn't, at this point in my life, a completely foreign idea to me. Then, one day I remember talking to one of my parents' friends about God and what I thought about Hell (aka believing it to now be annihilation), and I was, because of my research, beginning to ponder the idea of certain non-believers becoming saved despite not knowing Christ within their Earthly life (which I felt was possibly backed up in some specific verse in Romans). I remember saying, "I just don't think I can look at God the way I used to." And still the thought of losing my friends continued to haunt my thoughts, and so, finally decided, "What the heck!" and I looked up Christian Universalism, expecting it to be full of wishful thinking and unbiblical. But, as it turns out, I was completely wrong. (Among the sites that proved me wrong was this site!) Once I realized that many early Christians believed in UR; that Paul (the apostle) seemed to support the idea of UR; and most importantly, that aionion wasn't "eternal" and that "Hell" wasn't actually in the scriptures, but rather sheol, Hades, gehenna and Tarturus. Being a very deep thinking man, and always wanting to back up my beliefs with "evidence" I felt like I could finally rest at peace knowing that God was really going to save ALL MEN, including those I cared about, and I didn't even have to fear him myself (as believers so often do), and I had proof to back it up! Plus, to say the very least, it felt right with m conscious. How many ETers deny their consciouses to uphold a doctrine that just must be true!
Now basically my entire family believes in UR. My sister got excited once I realized that there was support for her views, my mom totally agrees with the basics behind UR (that all will be saved), my dad is really leaning towards UR, but my brother, unfortunately, still holds to ET/eternal conscious torment. On another note: two parents that are my parent's friends also seem to be really leaning towards/agree with UR. Their daughter said that my thoughts on religion (UR and such) are the closest to hers of anybody she's ever known. Their son seems to have his own thoughts on religion (he believes in God, but not Hell, but I'm not really sure what else). So a lot of blessings have come through God leading me to UR!! :bigGrin:
So, thinking back over my life I probably believed in ET for roughly 10 years, annihilation for five-ish months, and UR for just the past month or two. But it's been a glorious two months!! :bigGrin:
And that's more or less my testimony as of now. lol
Thanks for your testimony and journey... It is always interesting to hear how God is leading another down his/her life-trail, to the TRUTH...
One of the big problems with
HELL is that if it is truly ETERNAL, than it is an ALWAYS "IS" thing... which does not work.
The Eternal has no beginning or end, so if
HELL were to be true, then those "in it" have always BEEN in
Hell -- ARE in
Hell, and ALWAYS WILL BE in
Hell... :wacko2:
Most Christian observe ETERNAL as a "from NOW (this point in time) ---> ON -- scenario... which is NOT how ETERNITY ...
IS... Eternity has no such "beginning" point... and then is found to be "END-LESS"... It is "BEGINNING-LESS" as well...
It preceeded TIME and shall exceed it... for it ALWAYS IS... whereas TIME has both a
beginning (first day) and an
end (last day)... :dontknow:
GOD is LOGICAL for He calls us IN HIS
WORD, to
REASON with Him, which also states that we are capable of LOGICALLY dealing with Him as well --
Isaiah 1:18Not only that,
REASON is
DEMANDED by this invitation... If something is
UNREASONABLE... than it is therefore, suspect.
Any Biblical conclusions must include REASON as part of that conclusion, or it is found OUTSIDE this invitation of GOD to us...
HELL is UNREASONABLE... It does not match up
REASONABLY with:
(1) Good news -- the
Gospel --
Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15(2) Love --
1 Cor 13 -- 1 John 4:18(3) Forgiveness of enemies --
Luke 6:27-38 -- Matt 5:44-48(4) Peace --
Col 1:20(5) the passing of PAIN --
Rev 21:4Another thing that catches the teaching of
HELL in its own lie... is that GOD knew beforehand that "this or that person" would end up there (hell), yet brought this person forth regardless, then speaks of Himself as "JUST" to CONDEMN them to
HELL, when HE could've prevented that CONDEMNATION by opting to pass on Creating them... This is
UNREASONABLE...
EXAMPLE: I cannot put a GUN in a child's hand, then when he kills someone with the gun, ...be
JUSTIFIED in CONDEMNING the child for killing that person... For I am ATTACHED and PIVOTALLY INVOLVED in the incident. Which would have NEVER taken place, had ...I... not exercised BAD JUDGMENT by placing the gun in the possession of the child... KNOWING beforehand, the SEVERE potentials that could occur by that act (giving him the gun).
JESUS [the
WORD] was sent
NOT to CONDEMN --
John 3:17 -- and the
WORD [JESUS] shall be our JUDGE --
John 12:48 So if PART of the mission of the
WORD is to NOT CONDEMN, how shall it CONDEMN when it JUDGES?
The TRUTH is there is NO CONDEMNATION in
CHRIST... and as ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL
LIVE ...IN...
CHRIST --
1 Cor 15:22PEACE... :Peace:
...willieH :winkgrin:
I just wrote this to a friend who is strong on trying not to displease God in His life and actions. We have talked much on this and then I felt I had an almost audible conversation with this friend while I was alone. It went like this........
God created me thorugh no choice of my own and put me in this (and I used a vulgar term.....s----hole...death, darkness, blindness.....) and then tells me to be good or I will displease Him. Forgive my callousness but trying to avoid hurting His feelings is not high on my list, surviving this mess is. I did not ask to be born and did not create this mess. Forgive my insensitivity to the One who may be offended by my lack of adoration, I suppose He can make sure I am tortured even more because of it, but I want to be honest here. He can either take me as I am, rude, crude and honest, or He will have to throw me to a place of even more torments. His choice! I want to serve Him and, yes, please Him (why, I'm not sure but the 'want to' is there) but I'm not going to cry over some failures of my own while trying. He should be happy I'm not worse than I am!
I thought this thread was appropriate for this.
cp
Quote from: claypot on June 20, 2009, 12:12:15 AM
I just wrote this to a friend who is strong on trying not to displease God in His life and actions. We have talked much on this and then I felt I had an almost audible conversation with this friend while I was alone. It went like this........
God created me thorugh no choice of my own and put me in this (and I used a vulgar term.....s----hole...death, darkness, blindness.....) and then tells me to be good or I will displease Him. Forgive my callousness but trying to avoid hurting His feelings is not high on my list, surviving this mess is. I did not ask to be born and did not create this mess. Forgive my insensitivity to the One who may be offended by my lack of adoration, I suppose He can make sure I am tortured even more because of it, but I want to be honest here. He can either take me as I am, rude, crude and honest, or He will have to throw me to a place of even more torments. His choice! I want to serve Him and, yes, please Him (why, I'm not sure but the 'want to' is there) but I'm not going to cry over some failures of my own while trying. He should be happy I'm not worse than I am!
I thought this thread was appropriate for this.
cp
Thats a great letter.
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 08:10:47 PM
I see this come up constantly: We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.
Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?
Scriptures showing we all deserve death would be useful as well.
Thanks,
Legoman
Well, I believe differently than others here so I will give my perspective. As all in the body of Christ will be saved, I also believe that all in the body of Adam have been condemned. I believe that everyone born of Adam's descendancy (male line) have received the punishment due to a JUDGEMENT pronounced upon Adam. The only way in which I see that judgement to not apply to someone is if they were born of a virgin. So that means we all have received that condemnation (Christ excluded of course).
Paul
QuoteThe only way in which I see that judgement to not apply to someone is if they were born of a virgin.
I can't believe God judgement can be bypassed by some medical 'trick' in hospital.
What of those that are created? (Adam, Eve)
QuoteSo that means we all have received that condemnation (Christ excluded of course).
I wonder if Christ was excluded. He was the first one that managed to be without sins when He died.
By lack of better words: Perhaps He earned it to be excluded from judgement? Just as Adam 'earned' judgement.
Want to add that IMO judgement is hollow word. A word that you have to fill yourself. With sins. Yep, another weird look at things :winkgrin:
I read/understand it as "All who have sinned will be judged."
I know there are verses/passages implying all have sinned. When people are a little older that certainly is true.
But what about the baby that died shortly after birth? In what way did s/he sin?
Surely God didn't overlook that little fact. So we are the ones overlooking a vital verse?
:cloud9: There's an age of accountability; and also, you're accountable for what you know. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on June 21, 2009, 04:50:52 PM
you're accountable for what you know.
Great. I'm of the hook :thumbsup:
Anyway that sorta debunks that sin passes on at birth I think....
Sin isn't inherited but you do it yourself.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 21, 2009, 08:24:16 AM
QuoteThe only way in which I see that judgement to not apply to someone is if they were born of a virgin.
I can't believe God judgement can be bypassed by some medical 'trick' in hospital.
What of those that are created? (Adam, Eve)
QuoteSo that means we all have received that condemnation (Christ excluded of course).
I wonder if Christ was excluded. He was the first one that managed to be without sins when He died.
By lack of better words: Perhaps He earned it to be excluded from judgement? Just as Adam 'earned' judgement.
Being born of the virgin Mary was not a medical trick. I'm not sure of the motive of your response. Please clarify. But I will restate that we are all under the condemnation:
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
We are all under the condemnation. Even before Moses brought the law (before the law), death reigned. How can that be? Think about what these verses in Romans are telling us. It can't be because these others sinned because there was no law. Where there is no law there is no sin.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but
sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So these people died and not because of the law. The reason is because they are under the condemantion that was pronounced upon Adam:
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For
if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
You see, the scriptures here are showing that it isn't because we sin that we die (though the wages of sin is death) but it is because of the sin incurred by Adam that we die. But when the Law did come we are even MORE worthy of death.
So even if Moses never brought us the law at all - death would still be our condemnation.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Notice, it doesn't matter what anyone does - or how pure they live their life, if they are born of Adam they are WORTHY of death. This is why a savior could not come from Adam's seed.
It is Adam's offense that has caused us to ALL be worthy of death:
Rom 5:19 For as by
one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
The law came to make the offence more Worthy.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Since Christ was not born of Adam's seed, He was not under the penalty of Death. However, since the law entered after the condemnation, Jesus would have to be pure in order to not incurr the penalty of Death. So Jesus still had to overcome.
Jesus didn't merit Worthiness to be held in death:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on June 21, 2009, 06:55:57 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 21, 2009, 08:24:16 AM
I can't believe God judgement can be bypassed by some medical 'trick' in hospital.
Being born of the virgin Mary was not a medical trick. I'm not sure of the motive of your response. Please clarify.
I'm not speaking about Jesus. I was meaning that it might be possible for medicial science, in 2009, to get a virgin pregnant. With a syringe for example. How, why, when isn't really of importance. I mean that even if someone is born of a virgin that doesn't automaticly mean it's a good person.
My reponse was because you wrote:
QuoteThe only way in which I see that judgement to not apply to someone is if they were born of a virgin.
And I replied saying that I don't believe it's so easy to escape judgement.
That's all...
:cloud9: That's true, but they can't get her pregnant by the HG. :winkgrin:
At least, not yet....... :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 21, 2009, 08:07:56 PM
Quote from: trettep on June 21, 2009, 06:55:57 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 21, 2009, 08:24:16 AM
I can't believe God judgement can be bypassed by some medical 'trick' in hospital.
Being born of the virgin Mary was not a medical trick. I'm not sure of the motive of your response. Please clarify.
I'm not speaking about Jesus. I was meaning that it might be possible for medicial science, in 2009, to get a virgin pregnant. With a syringe for example. How, why, when isn't really of importance. I mean that even if someone is born of a virgin that doesn't automaticly mean it's a good person.
My reponse was because you wrote:
QuoteThe only way in which I see that judgement to not apply to someone is if they were born of a virgin.
And I replied saying that I don't believe it's so easy to escape judgement.
That's all...
Well, I'm talking about man's seed. So when speaking of the Virgin Mary, she wasn't impregnated by man's seed. While it is true that a woman can get pregant thru artificial insemination, it still requires man's seed for that to happen. So my comments were related to a virgin would have to conceive not of man's seed.
Paul
Okay, I am more New Thought Christian than Fundamentalist Christian. I'm not sure I agree with the idea of original sin. I look at it more that Christ came to show us how to live more compassionately. However, if the concept of original sin is, in fact, true, that would mean the following:
-Humanity came from Adam who messed : ) However, individuals born under Adam did not mess up by their own hand. Therefore,
-Christ died to wipe out Adam's mess up. We, humanity are SAVE not by our own hand or doing the sinner's prayer w/ enough enthusiasm. We are SAVED the same way we were born sinners... we didn't do anything to be born a "sinner" and we didn't do "anything" to be saved. Christ did it for ALL of us. That is, if you believe in original sin. I'm more of a thought that Christ died to blot out my own committed transgressions and I view it this way...
-Heaven is a sinless place. Therefore there needs to be a way to purify people to enter in. Christ's blood did it.
Just my thoughts.
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 08:10:47 PM
I see this come up constantly: We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.
Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?
Scriptures showing we all deserve death would be useful as well.
Thanks,
Legoman
Let us clarify "sin" please. In my belief, sin is simply falling short of perfection. I believe this life and earth is like a school. We are BOUND to make mistakes. Most people who we would consider sinful may simply be uneducated and ill-informed about making a better choice.
Let me give an example: A person chooses to use illegal drugs because they believe it is fun and will make them feel good. This is clearly a bad choice. I know it's a bad choice becaus I walked down that road myself and found out the hard way. Now, the person may know on one level that drugs are illegal, drugs can hurt you, and they may know that some people get addicted to them. However, their choice is born out of ignorance because FEW people AFTER they struggle to become free of those bonds would have EVER gone into in the first place.
A person who is angry and abusive... is operating under the assumption that they must "get people back" because that is how your protect yourself. They are ignorant to the law of love.
A person who is nasty to other people is ignorant to the law of cause/effect, karma, or what Christians call "reaping what you sow."
I think most "sin" is making bad choices out of ignorance. Yes, people make some choices born out of wanting to have fun, to profit themselves, to enjoy whatever it is they want (usually in excess). However, they are still ignorant of all the consequences in a real way.
I do feel there is a "concept of evil" that some clearly know in a real way and still choose the wrong way- sin. However, I feel most people fall into the other category.
Quote from: Esoterica on June 22, 2009, 01:28:11 AM
Okay, I am more New Thought Christian than Fundamentalist Christian. I'm not sure I agree with the idea of original sin. I look at it more that Christ came to show us how to live more compassionately. However, if the concept of original sin is, in fact, true, that would mean the following:
-Humanity came from Adam who messed : ) However, individuals born under Adam did not mess up by their own hand. Therefore,
-Christ died to wipe out Adam's mess up. We, humanity are SAVE not by our own hand or doing the sinner's prayer w/ enough enthusiasm. We are SAVED the same way we were born sinners... we didn't do anything to be born a "sinner" and we didn't do "anything" to be saved. Christ did it for ALL of us. That is, if you believe in original sin. I'm more of a thought that Christ died to blot out my own committed transgressions and I view it this way...
-Heaven is a sinless place. Therefore there needs to be a way to purify people to enter in. Christ's blood did it.
Just my thoughts.
Quote from: legoman on May 15, 2009, 08:10:47 PM
I see this come up constantly: We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.
Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?
Scriptures showing we all deserve death would be useful as well.
Thanks,
Legoman
Even if you committed NO sins yourself, you would still be condemned for being of the body of Adam. The Bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the Law. So even those that didn't have sin (and thus didn't commit sin) still had death because of the condemnation they received via Adam.
Paul
willieH: Hi trettep... :hithere:
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 01:40:34 AM
Even if you committed NO sins yourself, you would still be condemned for being of the body of Adam. The Bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the Law. So even those that didn't have sin (and thus didn't commit sin) still had death because of the condemnation they received via Adam.
Paul
You have deduced an imagined "condition" bro...
NONE are in this condition Paul (not committed sin)... ALL have SINNED --
Rom 3:23 -- so there are NONE which "didn't have SIN"...
UNBELIEF is a SIN --
Rom 14:23 -- and
ALL are CONCLUDED IN such by God --
Rom 11:32 -- Which concludes ALL as "sinners"... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
willieH: Hi trettep... :happygrin:
Quote from: trettep on June 21, 2009, 06:55:57 PM
Being born of the virgin Mary was not a medical trick. I'm not sure of the motive of your response. Please clarify. But I will restate that we are all under the condemnation:
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
We are all under the condemnation. Even before Moses brought the law (before the law), death reigned. How can that be? Think about what these verses in Romans are telling us. It can't be because these others sinned because there was no law. Where there is no law there is no sin.
The LAW, even though NOT yet Given unto men, was still in force... that man actually DISCOVERED the LAWS of PHYSICS did not prevent them from being IN FORCE up to, during, and after their "discovery" by men, did it?
How could Adam or Eve "sin" if no LAW was in place? How can you break a LAW which is non-existent? :dontknow: The
WORD states that SIN ENTERED via ADAM --
Rom 5:12 ...which proves that even though the LAW had yet to be formally given unto men in TIME, it was and IS an ETERNAL entity which was at WORK within the Creation.
SIN is transgression of the LAW... regardless of whether or not the "transgressors" are aware of the presence and activity of the LAW... SIN is not determined by ones knowledge of LAW... It is determined by violation of its principles, whether the principles are known or unknown.
I can drive "65 mph" in a "50 mph" zone, and that I am unaware that "50 mph" is the limit, does not excuse me from the demand of the LAW which the policeman imposes upon me.
A child can commit the SIN of STEALING, and be unaware he/she has, ...."sinned"... :dontknow:
Quote from: trettepRom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So these people died and not because of the law. The reason is because they are under the condemantion that was pronounced upon Adam:
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
I'm not sure I agree with you trettep (but keep in mind, "I'm not sure" -- :laughing7:)...
"Not imputed" does not mean that the LAWS which demand results are not enforced... such as SIN=DEATH...
"Imputed" means here that even though the LAW was delivering and working DEATH, further "imputing" or "account" of blame was not to be attached... The word "IMPUTE" in this verse means to "keep in account"...
IOW -- Sin still was causing DEATH and was still a LAW (transgression demanding a result) which was at work, ...however, those receiving those results were not ACCUMULATING blame which in the GRAVE, awaited further JUDGMENT and PUNISHMENT... in addition to the DEATH which the LAW was working in them, due to their transgressions against it...
Once the LAW was actually given, then BLAME (account) was incurring as well, until GRACE came to relieve it ALL... for JUSTIFICATION (establishing justice) for the offenses of SIN is accomplished
by GRACE --
Rom 5:18-21 -- For offenses of the LAW cannot exceed the
GRACE which MUCH MORE ABOUNDS wherever (whenever)
SIN abounds.
Quote from: trettepYou see, the scriptures here are showing that it isn't because we sin that we die (though the wages of sin is death) but it is because of the sin incurred by Adam that we die. But when the Law did come we are even MORE worthy of death.
I
DO NOT agree here bro... MORE "WORTHY"? Upon what Scripture do you base this? Even though the LAW was not yet "physically" given, it ALWAYS
IS...
The LAW is not a TIME based entity... It is either FULFILLED
(JESUS) or UNFULFILLED
(US), but nevertheless ...
IS... regardless of awareness... Just as I noted about PHYSICS... Gravity was IN FORCE, before NEWTON or GALILEO or any other before them, "discovered" it to be in force...
SIN is why we die trettep. That Adam was the first MAN to sin and all men are descendant of him, is evident that it is part of our makeup... We all are MEN, of the human race as was Adam... and just as we have physically -- 2 eyes, ears, legs, arms, a mouth and a nose, also includes the (invisible) ADVERSITY within, which enabled Adam to DISOBEY (transgress) the COMMAND of GOD... and subsequently ALL men as well...
The SIN offense ENTERED by His disobedience, but this ability was also IN EVE, for it was HER act (of disobedience) that came
FIRST.
However, ADAM was given dominion over creation (
not Eve -- the "creation" INCLUDED Eve), and his relinquishing of that dominion was found ENTERING Creation in HIS disobedience, not hers... Their "eyes" were not "opened" at HER eating of the fruit, but ...at HIS --
Gen 3:6 -- Eve had eaten, and had no awareness of SIN for no "KNOWLEDGE" was imparted to her for she had no AUTHORITY... Origin was in HIM, and until ADAM ate, ...Eve's "eyes" remained CLOSED to the KNOWLEDGE...
The "eyes of them BOTH were opened" --
Gen 3:7 -- upon Adam's "eating"... otherwise Eve's eye" would have been noted as "OPEN"
before she gave to ADAM to eat... which further displays that she did NOT "know" or she would have refrained from giving him the fruit.
She also displays in her INDEPENDENT disobedience that she had the
ability to TRANSGRESS (natural/carnal mind which succumbs to temptation) ...apart from ADAM and was the one IN DECEPTION (but NOT "knowledge")... before ADAM (who obviously also, "possessed the ability").
However, it was
HIS offense (disobedience to the command of
YHVH) that caused entry of SIN into the world, ...not hers.
Quote from: trettepSo even if Moses never brought us the law at all - death would still be our condemnation.
Agreed... The LAW was still relevant, even though not given. The "LAW" is obedience to the COMMAND of GOD, and
LIFE proceeds from the obedience of it (
JESUS =
John 14:6) , ...whereas DEATH proceeds from DISOBEDIENCE (
ADAM =
Gen 3:19)...
That the LAW is not consciously "known" does not prevent it from entering in and actively making its demands result.
QuoteRom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Notice, it doesn't matter what anyone does - or how pure they live their life, if they are born of Adam they are WORTHY of death. This is why a savior could not come from Adam's seed.
I am not sure "
worthy" is the word I would use...
WORTHY implies an honorable connotation...
I would think we are become CANDIDATES for DEATH because we are of ADAM... not of our choosing, but of GOD's, ...for GOD brought ADAM forth and
DECREED (
Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 5:12) that ALL of Adam's descendents would be encased by the act that Adam did in giving himself over to DISOBEDIENCE...
THAT is the point here bro.
IN CHRIST, is the creation redeemed and encased due to HIS OBEDIENCE, and is also found
DECREED by GOD --
Rom 5:18The "obedient" (overcoming) FLESH of
CHRIST was also found to be
DECREED to DIE, bro --
Rev 13:8 -- within the act of RANSOMING those who in their "disobedient" FLESH which NATURALLY tempted them, ...might be redeemed OUT of the state of DEATH which resulted in falling to its temptations.
QuoteIt is Adam's offense that has caused us to ALL be worthy of death:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Again, I recommend a different word other that "worthy"...
Quote from: trettepThe law came to make the offence more Worthy.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
The LAW did NOT make the offense "
WORTHY"... it made it KNOWN!
QuoteSince Christ was not born of Adam's seed, He was not under the penalty of Death. However, since the law entered after the condemnation, Jesus would have to be pure in order to not incurr the penalty of Death. So Jesus still had to overcome.
Jesus didn't merit Worthiness to be held in death:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Sorry to once again disagree brother T... but ADAM is the original MAN... and that
CHRIST was not derived of the "seed" of
ADAM did not disassociate Him
[Christ] from Him
[Adam]...
Which is WHY He entitled Himself --
SON of MAN. How could He BE the
SON of MAN unless He is connected to Him GENEOLOGICALLY? He could NOT! He WAS connected and the
WORD displays that connection...
That GOD was ONE of His TWO parents, gave
CHRIST TWO GENEOLOGIES... and it is so written --
Matt 1:1-16 and
Luke 3:23-38These 2 geneologies
DIFFER from one another...
The
FIRST --
Matt 1:1-16 -- is the "Geneology of
FAITH" which proceeds from GOD and His PARENTAGE of
CHRIST... and the LINEAGE of
FAITH... which He
UTILIZED to OVERCOME ...This
LINEAGE begins with ABRAHAM, and continues through the SON of Abraham [Isaac] which was spared because of
FAITH... producing the SON of
GOD which would bring LIFE from DEATH.
The
SECOND --
Luke 3:23-38 -- is the "Geneology of
DISOBEDIENCE" which proceeds from
ADAM and his PARENTAGE of
CHRIST (who was father to
CHRIST in earthly terms) and is the LINEAGE of
MAN -
DISOBEDIENCE... which He
OVERCAME... This
LINEAGE goes [DISOBEDIENTLY] UNITERRUPTED from ADAM to
CHRIST... producing the SON of
MAN... which would DIE, in bringing LIFE back from DEATH...
...willieH :egyptdance:
Quote from: willieH on June 22, 2009, 09:18:06 PM
willieH: Hi trettep... :hithere:
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 01:40:34 AM
Even if you committed NO sins yourself, you would still be condemned for being of the body of Adam. The Bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the Law. So even those that didn't have sin (and thus didn't commit sin) still had death because of the condemnation they received via Adam.
Paul
You have deduced an imagined "condition" bro...
NONE are in this condition Paul (not committed sin)... ALL have SINNED -- Rom 3:23 -- so there are NONE which "didn't have SIN"...
UNBELIEF is a SIN -- Rom 14:23 -- and ALL are CONCLUDED IN such by God -- Rom 11:32 -- Which concludes ALL as "sinners"... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
The imagined condition was on purpose. I believe we also have all sin also. My statement that even if you haven't "committed" sin is a reference to the fact that you still would have condemnation in Adam. In other words it is hypothetical. It is casting the idea of sin to the side to reflect on that understanding that putting sin aside (whether or not you committed it) your still in condemnation. I used the word "committed" instead of leaving it out to distinguish between you having sin and having committed that sin yourself.
So let me clarify, that we are all indeed sinners.
Paul
Quote from: willieH on June 22, 2009, 11:20:32 PM
willieH: Hi trettep... :happygrin:
Quote from: trettep on June 21, 2009, 06:55:57 PM
Being born of the virgin Mary was not a medical trick. I'm not sure of the motive of your response. Please clarify. But I will restate that we are all under the condemnation:
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
We are all under the condemnation. Even before Moses brought the law (before the law), death reigned. How can that be? Think about what these verses in Romans are telling us. It can't be because these others sinned because there was no law. Where there is no law there is no sin.
The LAW, even though NOT yet Given unto men, was still in force... that man actually DISCOVERED the LAWS of PHYSICS did not prevent them from being IN FORCE up to, during, and after their "discovery" by men, did it?
How could Adam or Eve "sin" if no LAW was in place? How can you break a LAW which is non-existent? :dontknow: The WORD states that SIN ENTERED via ADAM -- Rom 5:12 ...which proves that even though the LAW had yet to be formally given unto men in TIME, it was and IS an ETERNAL entity which was at WORK within the Creation.
SIN is transgression of the LAW... regardless of whether or not the "transgressors" are aware of the presence and activity of the LAW... SIN is not determined by ones knowledge of LAW... It is determined by violation of its principles, whether the principles are known or unknown.
I can drive "65 mph" in a "50 mph" zone, and that I am unaware that "50 mph" is the limit, does not excuse me from the demand of the LAW which the policeman imposes upon me.
A child can commit the SIN of STEALING, and be unaware he/she has, ...."sinned"... :dontknow:
Quote from: trettepRom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So these people died and not because of the law. The reason is because they are under the condemantion that was pronounced upon Adam:
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
I'm not sure I agree with you trettep (but keep in mind, "I'm not sure" -- :laughing7:)...
"Not imputed" does not mean that the LAWS which demand results are not enforced... such as SIN=DEATH...
"Imputed" means here that even though the LAW was delivering and working DEATH, further "imputing" or "account" of blame was not to be attached... The word "IMPUTE" in this verse means to "keep in account"...
IOW -- Sin still was causing DEATH and was still a LAW (transgression demanding a result) which was at work, ...however, those receiving those results were not ACCUMULATING blame which in the GRAVE, awaited further JUDGMENT and PUNISHMENT... in addition to the DEATH which the LAW was working in them, due to their transgressions against it...
Once the LAW was actually given, then BLAME (account) was incurring as well, until GRACE came to relieve it ALL... for JUSTIFICATION (establishing justice) for the offenses of SIN is accomplished by GRACE -- Rom 5:18-21 -- For offenses of the LAW cannot exceed the GRACE which MUCH MORE ABOUNDS wherever (whenever) SIN abounds.
Quote from: trettepYou see, the scriptures here are showing that it isn't because we sin that we die (though the wages of sin is death) but it is because of the sin incurred by Adam that we die. But when the Law did come we are even MORE worthy of death.
I DO NOT agree here bro... MORE "WORTHY"? Upon what Scripture do you base this? Even though the LAW was not yet "physically" given, it ALWAYS IS...
The LAW is not a TIME based entity... It is either FULFILLED (JESUS) or UNFULFILLED (US), but nevertheless ...IS... regardless of awareness... Just as I noted about PHYSICS... Gravity was IN FORCE, before NEWTON or GALILEO or any other before them, "discovered" it to be in force...
SIN is why we die trettep. That Adam was the first MAN to sin and all men are descendant of him, is evident that it is part of our makeup... We all are MEN, of the human race as was Adam... and just as we have physically -- 2 eyes, ears, legs, arms, a mouth and a nose, also includes the (invisible) ADVERSITY within, which enabled Adam to DISOBEY (transgress) the COMMAND of GOD... and subsequently ALL men as well...
The SIN offense ENTERED by His disobedience, but this ability was also IN EVE, for it was HER act (of disobedience) that came FIRST.
However, ADAM was given dominion over creation (not Eve -- the "creation" INCLUDED Eve), and his relinquishing of that dominion was found ENTERING Creation in HIS disobedience, not hers... Their "eyes" were not "opened" at HER eating of the fruit, but ...at HIS -- Gen 3:6 -- Eve had eaten, and had no awareness of SIN for no "KNOWLEDGE" was imparted to her for she had no AUTHORITY... Origin was in HIM, and until ADAM ate, ...Eve's "eyes" remained CLOSED to the KNOWLEDGE...
The "eyes of them BOTH were opened" -- Gen 3:7 -- upon Adam's "eating"... otherwise Eve's eye" would have been noted as "OPEN" before she gave to ADAM to eat... which further displays that she did NOT "know" or she would have refrained from giving him the fruit.
She also displays in her INDEPENDENT disobedience that she had the ability to TRANSGRESS (natural/carnal mind which succumbs to temptation) ...apart from ADAM and was the one IN DECEPTION (but NOT "knowledge")... before ADAM (who obviously also, "possessed the ability").
However, it was HIS offense (disobedience to the command of YHVH) that caused entry of SIN into the world, ...not hers.
Quote from: trettepSo even if Moses never brought us the law at all - death would still be our condemnation.
Agreed... The LAW was still relevant, even though not given. The "LAW" is obedience to the COMMAND of GOD, and LIFE proceeds from the obedience of it (JESUS = John 14:6) , ...whereas DEATH proceeds from DISOBEDIENCE (ADAM = Gen 3:19)...
That the LAW is not consciously "known" does not prevent it from entering in and actively making its demands result.
QuoteRom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Notice, it doesn't matter what anyone does - or how pure they live their life, if they are born of Adam they are WORTHY of death. This is why a savior could not come from Adam's seed.
I am not sure "worthy" is the word I would use... WORTHY implies an honorable connotation...
I would think we are become CANDIDATES for DEATH because we are of ADAM... not of our choosing, but of GOD's, ...for GOD brought ADAM forth and DECREED (Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 5:12) that ALL of Adam's descendents would be encased by the act that Adam did in giving himself over to DISOBEDIENCE... THAT is the point here bro.
IN CHRIST, is the creation redeemed and encased due to HIS OBEDIENCE, and is also found DECREED by GOD -- Rom 5:18
The "obedient" (overcoming) FLESH of CHRIST was also found to be DECREED to DIE, bro -- Rev 13:8 -- within the act of RANSOMING those who in their "disobedient" FLESH which NATURALLY tempted them, ...might be redeemed OUT of the state of DEATH which resulted in falling to its temptations.
QuoteIt is Adam's offense that has caused us to ALL be worthy of death:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Again, I recommend a different word other that "worthy"...
Quote from: trettepThe law came to make the offence more Worthy.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
The LAW did NOT make the offense "WORTHY"... it made it KNOWN!
QuoteSince Christ was not born of Adam's seed, He was not under the penalty of Death. However, since the law entered after the condemnation, Jesus would have to be pure in order to not incurr the penalty of Death. So Jesus still had to overcome.
Jesus didn't merit Worthiness to be held in death:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Sorry to once again disagree brother T... but ADAM is the original MAN... and that
CHRIST was not derived of the "seed" of ADAM did not disassociate Him [Christ] from Him [Adam]...
Which is WHY He entitled Himself -- SON of MAN. How could He BE the SON of MAN unless He is connected to Him GENEOLOGICALLY? He could NOT! He WAS connected and the WORD displays that connection...
That GOD was ONE of His TWO parents, gave CHRIST TWO GENEOLOGIES... and it is so written -- Matt 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38
These 2 geneologies DIFFER from one another...
The FIRST -- Matt 1:1-16 -- is the "Geneology of FAITH" which proceeds from GOD and His PARENTAGE of CHRIST... and the LINEAGE of FAITH... which He UTILIZED to OVERCOME ...This LINEAGE begins with ABRAHAM, and continues through the SON of Abraham [Isaac] which was spared because of FAITH... producing the SON of GOD which would bring LIFE from DEATH.
The SECOND -- Luke 3:23-38 -- is the "Geneology of DISOBEDIENCE" which proceeds from ADAM and his PARENTAGE of CHRIST (who was father to CHRIST in earthly terms) and is the LINEAGE of MAN - DISOBEDIENCE... which He OVERCAME... This LINEAGE goes [DISOBEDIENTLY] UNITERRUPTED from ADAM to CHRIST... producing the SON of MAN... which would DIE, in bringing LIFE back from DEATH...
...willieH :egyptdance:
I appreciate all you did here but I can't follow along to comment this very well unless you break it out in chunks. So let me first say that Adam did indeed sin by break a law. The law Adam broke was to not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. As for imputing sin:
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Bless is that man! Not punnished. If we don't have law then we don't have sin. There is no sin where there is no law.
Now consider these verses again carefully:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
If sin is not inputed then how can one stand accused if they have not sin? - they cannot. The sins that we have are those of Adam - that is what our condemnation is for. They are for those he incurred the penalty for. So you see we are all sinners but it is NOT sin that we committed but that which he committed. But it is attributed to us as our committed sins because we are of the BODY of Adam. So if Adam sinned then his body has committed sin and as members of the body we share in the function of the body.
Paul
:cloud9: Just a sidenote from what has been made life in me....being set free of the law of sin and death is when no sin can be imputed. No sin is imputed because you are walking in the proceeding word of life by which we live or have the life of the Spirit, that came from the Father's mouth.
It is a word of His breath, as opposed to the letter that killeth. Thus it says, we don't live by bread (word/dead letter) alone, but by every word (Spirit breathed) that comes from the Father's mouth.Receiving this Word that is His breath, enables you walk upon the water (waters below the firmament), in the firmament, which is "heaven". Heaven is not a place it's a state of being. The waters below this firmament or heaven, is what subjects us to the rulership of the law/letter, whose purpose is to "kill" the flesh. Blessings....
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 11:37:26 PM
Quote from: willieH on June 22, 2009, 09:18:06 PM
willieH: Hi trettep... :hithere:
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 01:40:34 AM
Even if you committed NO sins yourself, you would still be condemned for being of the body of Adam. The Bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the Law. So even those that didn't have sin (and thus didn't commit sin) still had death because of the condemnation they received via Adam.
Paul
You have deduced an imagined "condition" bro...
NONE are in this condition Paul (not committed sin)... ALL have SINNED -- Rom 3:23 -- so there are NONE which "didn't have SIN"...
UNBELIEF is a SIN -- Rom 14:23 -- and ALL are CONCLUDED IN such by God -- Rom 11:32 -- Which concludes ALL as "sinners"... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
The imagined condition was on purpose. I believe we also have all sin also. My statement that even if you haven't "committed" sin is a reference to the fact that you still would have condemnation in Adam. In other words it is hypothetical. It is casting the idea of sin to the side to reflect on that understanding that putting sin aside (whether or not you committed it) your still in condemnation. I used the word "committed" instead of leaving it out to distinguish between you having sin and having committed that sin yourself.
So let me clarify, that we are all indeed sinners.
Paul
It still comes down to INDIVIDUAL accountability doesn't it? If DEATH is due completely to ADAM, then why am I or You accountable?
ADAM "got the ball rolling", but EACH of us is due his own accountability before God.
And to begin with ADAM, is part of ALL who are CONCLUDED by GOD to be UNBELIEVERS... which in itself is "sin enough" to cause DEATH...
GOD's WILL is WORKING in
ALL THINGS bro...
Eph 1:11Part of "ALL THINGS" are the sinful lives of ALL MEN...
It is INTENDED that we "KNOW"
Evil, which results in SIN, that we might ALL gain the "knowledge" and thereby BE as GOD is, ...intimately by EXPERIENCE, ..."KNOWING"
Evil... :sigh:
But more importantly, it is also INTENDED that we "KNOW"
Good as well, which is the REDEEMER from Evil and Sin... that we shall BE as God is, ...intimately by EXPERIENCE, ..."KNOWING"
Good... :LoveH1:
:Peace:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Cardinal on June 21, 2009, 08:12:55 PM
:cloud9: That's true, but they can't get her pregnant by the HG. :winkgrin:
At least, not yet....... :winkgrin:
That's funny.
Quote from: willieH on June 23, 2009, 03:39:00 AM
It still comes down to INDIVIDUAL accountability doesn't it? If DEATH is due completely to ADAM, then why am I or You accountable?
ADAM "got the ball rolling", but EACH of us is due his own accountability before God.
And to begin with ADAM, is part of ALL who are CONCLUDED by GOD to be UNBELIEVERS... which in itself is "sin enough" to cause DEATH...
GOD's WILL is WORKING in ALL THINGS bro... Eph 1:11
Part of "ALL THINGS" are the sinful lives of ALL MEN...
It is INTENDED that we "KNOW" Evil, which results in SIN, that we might ALL gain the "knowledge" and thereby BE as GOD is, ...intimately by EXPERIENCE, ..."KNOWING" Evil... :sigh:
But more importantly, it is also INTENDED that we "KNOW" Good as well, which is the REDEEMER from Evil and Sin... that we shall BE as God is, ...intimately by EXPERIENCE, ..."KNOWING" Good... :LoveH1:
:Peace:
...willieH :cloud9:
I'm still trying to understand completely where we disagree. Do you disagree that all of us have incurred the penalty of death due to Adam's transgression? Are you of the belief that Adam's transgression doesn't mean necessarily that we have incurred the penalty of death?
Paul
willieH: Hi trettep... :happygrin:
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 11:56:35 PM
I appreciate all you did here but I can't follow along to comment this very well unless you break it out in chunks.
I did break it into "chunks", brother Paul... take each "chunk" you might wish to answer, and answer it, bro.
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 11:56:35 PMSo let me first say that Adam did indeed sin by break a law. The law Adam broke was to not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
I believe the LAW that Adam broke was the FIRST COMMANDMENT... for he held HIS WILL above the COMMAND of
YHVH...
SITTING in the TEMPLE of GOD, and acting as if HE is GOD, ...placing HIMSELF and HIS "decision to eat", above
YHVH and
YHVH's stated DECISION that he (Adam)
NOT eat of the tree... and thereby holding himself and his "will" ABOVE the COMMAND of
YHVH... overriding it, ...and therein transgressing it...
Within His decision to eat, Adam obviously concluded that he would NOT DIE as
YHVH had noted, and thereby DISBELIEVED God... also committing the SIN of UNBELIEF.
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 11:56:35 PMAs for imputing sin:
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Bless is that man! Not punnished. If we don't have law then we don't have sin. There is no sin where there is no law.
Yes it is indeed a
BLESSING :myahoo: ...and it is unto ALL MEN... which compose, the "
WORLD"...
2 Cor 5:19 to wit, that God was in CHRIST, reconciling the WORLD, unto Himself -- NOT IMPUTING their trespasses UNTO THEM; and hath commited unto us, the word of reconciliation.1 John 2:2 and He is the propitiation for our sins, and NOT for ours ONLY, but also for (the sins of) the WHOLE WORLDPunishment is NOT part of the
GOSPEL message...
PUNISHMENT is
NOT ...
GOOD NEWS... it is proposal of FEAR and TORMENT... and defiles the
GOSPEL (which is EXCLUSIVELY
GOOD NEWS) in its presentation...
LAW is present, regardless of the awareness of men... The LAW of GOD, ALWAYS IS... :dontknow: It did not come into "being" at Mt. Sinai... it was IN EFFECT all along. When CAIN slew ABEL... he committed SIN against the LAW which states THOU SHALT NOT KILL... even though that "LAW" was yet to be KNOWN...
Otherwise, GOD is shown to be UNFAIR to both ADAM and CAIN... for if there was NO LAW, then how can one "sin", when SIN ...
IS... transgression of the LAW? --
1 John 3:4These 2 did not have SIN
IMPUTED (accounted against them, for the LAW had yet to be PUBLISHED KNOWLEDGE)... but they STILL suffered the result of TRANSGRESSING it...
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of ADAM'S ...TRANSGRESSION... who is the figure of Him that was to come...How can ADAM, ..."transgress" something that is NOT THERE?
I can drink a glass of water containing DEADLY FLAVORLESS, ODORLESS poison... because I am UNAWARE of the POISON, does NOT preclude the DEADLY effects of the POISON upon me... :dontknow:
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 11:56:35 PMNow consider these verses again carefully:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
If sin is not inputed then how can one stand accused if they have not sin? - they cannot.
There is quite a difference between ACCUSATION, and PUNISHMENT... The LAW is that which ACCUSES us... and correctly so --
Rom 7:9-13 -- We are found accountable before God, but it is the Religion of MAN which requires PUNISHMENT for SIN...
The WRATH of GOD ...is... revealed... and IS occuring against each of us, in ALL the UNGODLINESSES and UNRIGHTEOUSNESSES in which we participate --
Rom 1:18Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 11:56:35 PMThe sins that we have are those of Adam - that is what our condemnation is for. They are for those he incurred the penalty for. So you see we are all sinners but it is NOT sin that we committed but that which he committed. But it is attributed to us as our committed sins because we are of the BODY of Adam. So if Adam sinned then his body has committed sin and as members of the body we share in the function of the body.
Paul
In this I find both agreement and disagreement... We ARE descendents of ADAM, and SIN DID enter the human race within
his experience... but as INDIVIDUAL beings, we cannot lay the BLAME of our own SIN at HIS FEET...
We are EACH accountable... and must face GOD individually for our lives... As I see it, this is already going on --
John 12:31 -- For when GOD is revealed ALL
in ALL, then NOTHING is left to SECRECY...
Life is a teacher as well as the
WORD Brother Paul... God has set up life and the working of LAW within life, to be the measure which keeps things in harmonious flow... It is the breaking of that flow which isolates men, causing them penalty which they must face as individuals... If my son (35yrs old) gets in trouble with the law, ...I do not face the judge, HE DOES... and because he made a bad decision could partially reflect upon me depending upon what area it fell in, but in the end... He faces up to the "rules" as a man himself, and cannot and SHOULD NOT, cast his blame upon me...
My :2c:
...willieH :cloud9:
:cloud9: Of course Adam knew the law; Adam was a priest unto God. That's how Cain and Able knew to do sacrifice. My :2c: Blessings...
I think WillieH is making a good point and I just wanted to see if I am understanding as he intends. Willie, you are saying (I'm paraphrasing):
1. The higher law (love) existed before its expression in the "law of Moses" (which were hung on love)
2. That explains why "sin was in the world" before Moses, because the law always existed, yet without the enumerated commandments, sin was not IMPUTED, nevertheless the wages of sin were resulting in death, and man needed to be aware of it which is why the imputation was necessary
If that is the gist, then I totally agree with what you are saying.
Quote from: willieH on June 23, 2009, 07:46:27 PM
willieH: Hi trettep... :happygrin:
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 11:56:35 PM
I appreciate all you did here but I can't follow along to comment this very well unless you break it out in chunks.
I did break it into "chunks", brother Paul... take each "chunk" you might wish to answer, and answer it, bro.
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 11:56:35 PMSo let me first say that Adam did indeed sin by break a law. The law Adam broke was to not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
I believe the LAW that Adam broke was the FIRST COMMANDMENT... for he held HIS WILL above the COMMAND of YHVH...
SITTING in the TEMPLE of GOD, and acting as if HE is GOD, ...placing HIMSELF and HIS "decision to eat", above YHVH and YHVH's stated DECISION that he (Adam) NOT eat of the tree... and thereby holding himself and his "will" ABOVE the COMMAND of YHVH... overriding it, ...and therein transgressing it...
Within His decision to eat, Adam obviously concluded that he would NOT DIE as YHVH had noted, and thereby DISBELIEVED God... also committing the SIN of UNBELIEF.
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 11:56:35 PMAs for imputing sin:
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Bless is that man! Not punnished. If we don't have law then we don't have sin. There is no sin where there is no law.
Yes it is indeed a BLESSING :myahoo: ...and it is unto ALL MEN... which compose, the "WORLD"...
2 Cor 5:19 to wit, that God was in CHRIST, reconciling the WORLD, unto Himself -- NOT IMPUTING their trespasses UNTO THEM; and hath commited unto us, the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 and He is the propitiation for our sins, and NOT for ours ONLY, but also for (the sins of) the WHOLE WORLD
Punishment is NOT part of the GOSPEL message... PUNISHMENT is NOT ...GOOD NEWS... it is proposal of FEAR and TORMENT... and defiles the GOSPEL (which is EXCLUSIVELY GOOD NEWS) in its presentation...
LAW is present, regardless of the awareness of men... The LAW of GOD, ALWAYS IS... :dontknow: It did not come into "being" at Mt. Sinai... it was IN EFFECT all along. When CAIN slew ABEL... he committed SIN against the LAW which states THOU SHALT NOT KILL... even though that "LAW" was yet to be KNOWN...
Otherwise, GOD is shown to be UNFAIR to both ADAM and CAIN... for if there was NO LAW, then how can one "sin", when SIN ...IS... transgression of the LAW? --1 John 3:4
These 2 did not have SIN IMPUTED (accounted against them, for the LAW had yet to be PUBLISHED KNOWLEDGE)... but they STILL suffered the result of TRANSGRESSING it...
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of ADAM'S ...TRANSGRESSION... who is the figure of Him that was to come...
How can ADAM, ..."transgress" something that is NOT THERE?
I can drink a glass of water containing DEADLY FLAVORLESS, ODORLESS poison... because I am UNAWARE of the POISON, does NOT preclude the DEADLY effects of the POISON upon me... :dontknow:
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 11:56:35 PMNow consider these verses again carefully:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
If sin is not inputed then how can one stand accused if they have not sin? - they cannot.
There is quite a difference between ACCUSATION, and PUNISHMENT... The LAW is that which ACCUSES us... and correctly so -- Rom 7:9-13 -- We are found accountable before God, but it is the Religion of MAN which requires PUNISHMENT for SIN...
The WRATH of GOD ...is... revealed... and IS occuring against each of us, in ALL the UNGODLINESSES and UNRIGHTEOUSNESSES in which we participate -- Rom 1:18
Quote from: trettep on June 22, 2009, 11:56:35 PMThe sins that we have are those of Adam - that is what our condemnation is for. They are for those he incurred the penalty for. So you see we are all sinners but it is NOT sin that we committed but that which he committed. But it is attributed to us as our committed sins because we are of the BODY of Adam. So if Adam sinned then his body has committed sin and as members of the body we share in the function of the body.
Paul
In this I find both agreement and disagreement... We ARE descendents of ADAM, and SIN DID enter the human race within his experience... but as INDIVIDUAL beings, we cannot lay the BLAME of our own SIN at HIS FEET...
We are EACH accountable... and must face GOD individually for our lives... As I see it, this is already going on -- John 12:31 -- For when GOD is revealed ALL in ALL, then NOTHING is left to SECRECY...
Life is a teacher as well as the WORD Brother Paul... God has set up life and the working of LAW within life, to be the measure which keeps things in harmonious flow... It is the breaking of that flow which isolates men, causing them penalty which they must face as individuals... If my son (35yrs old) gets in trouble with the law, ...I do not face the judge, HE DOES... and because he made a bad decision could partially reflect upon me depending upon what area it fell in, but in the end... He faces up to the "rules" as a man himself, and cannot and SHOULD NOT, cast his blame upon me...
My :2c:
...willieH :cloud9:
Willie, why do babies die?
Paul
Quote from: Cardinal on June 23, 2009, 08:15:04 PM
:cloud9: Of course Adam knew the law; Adam was a priest unto God. That's how Cain and Able knew to do sacrifice. My :2c: Blessings...
Yes, the law was there as Willi says but the condemnation of death was there from Adam not from the transgression of the Law that alwas was there. Those verses in Romans are showing that DEATH is a result of the condemnation we have in Adam.
Paul
Paul,
I re-read the posts up to this point and I was wondering about something you said. You said that
"If sin is not inputed then how can one stand accused if they have not sin? - they cannot."
Isn't there a difference between someone HAVING sin, and someone's sin being imputed? Your basis is that we have sin, but it's Adam's transgressions that are being condemned for, right? But if you agree that "the law was there" then I don't see how the argument that we are being condemned for another person's sin holds anymore. If "the law was there" as Willie is saying, then everyone is a transgressor whether they knew it or not, only that it wasn't imputed until the Law of Moses, right?
One of the issues is what does it mean to sin "after the simultitude of Adam's transgression." I think you and I would agree that there is a marked difference between sinning in ignorance and sinning after knowing God's command. Adam transgressed after knowing God's command, and was not decieved. He sinned anyway. Those who sin in the simultitude of THAT transgression do so knowing God's command. If the law was always there, before Moses, all could still transgress but they would be sinning in ignorance until the Law was given by Moses, so almost none were transgressing similar to Adam. This is why death reigned even to those who did not sin similar to Adam. Their sin still worked death even if they didn't know they were sinning.
I mean we know that the "wages of sin is death." So shouldn't we ask, whose wages? It seems that you are saying that the wages of ADAM's sin was death to us, but wouldn't you agree that whether sin is imputed by the law, that sin works death in every man who has a carnal mind?
Paul said "For to be carnally minded is death, but the Spirit is life and peace." Romans 8:6. In that same chapter Paul also said that there is no longer any judgment (condemnation) for those who walk according to the Spirit. The judgment he was talking about is in Romans 7, which was the relationship between the law and the carnal mind. Sin used the holy commandment to deceive us and slay us, and we would become "exceeding sinful" and sin would then be REVEALED sin.
The Law revealed sin by the imputation of it so that it would interact with sin in a way that would make it apparent to them who had it, which is why sin was in the world when there was no law. We may disagree, but I see that the "condemnation of death" in Adam is in that we all have a carnal mind which works death and THUS we are condemned in death until the savior comes to kill "the old man."
I am not seeing the purpose in the hypothetical situation which states that "even if we never sinned" because - even though that is scripturally impossible - even if we never committed sin, the condemnation of death we would still have is in the carnal mind that each person individually has.
If I were to answer the question "why do babies die" I would first recognize that we may be talking about different forms of death. They die 1) because they are mortal, and 2) because they were born carnally minded. Mortality is not what Paul is talking about in Romans 5. He is talking about death in sin versus life in Christ. THAT death, carnal death in the carnal mind, is upon each person who is made subject to vanity, which is everyone.
Quote from: Seth on June 24, 2009, 07:54:51 PM
Paul,
I re-read the posts up to this point and I was wondering about something you said. You said that
"If sin is not inputed then how can one stand accused if they have not sin? - they cannot."
Isn't there a difference between someone HAVING sin, and someone's sin being imputed? Your basis is that we have sin, but it's Adam's transgressions that are being condemned for, right? But if you agree that "the law was there" then I don't see how the argument that we are being condemned for another person's sin holds anymore. If "the law was there" as Willie is saying, then everyone is a transgressor whether they knew it or not, only that it wasn't imputed until the Law of Moses, right?
I agree that everyone is a transgressor. It seems to me is where we disagree is that Willie seems to believe that everyone personally incurred sins since Adam. I don't see a baby dieing moments after it is born as having personally incurred any sins. We all have Adams sin as members of his body. And we received the just condemantion for that sin. So a baby born today would be born with Adam's sin and condemnation. But that doesn't mean that the baby incurred sin itself (committed sins personally). It is simply born with the sin inherited from Adam. So the law is still there as Willie says and as that baby grows it is going to incurr (commit personally) sins by violating those laws.
Quote
One of the issues is what does it mean to sin "after the simultitude of Adam's transgression." I think you and I would agree that there is a marked difference between sinning in ignorance and sinning after knowing God's command. Adam transgressed after knowing God's command, and was not decieved. He sinned anyway. Those who sin in the simultitude of THAT transgression do so knowing God's command. If the law is always there, before Moses, all could still transgress, just not similar to Adam, they would be sinning in ignorance. This is why death reigned even to those who did not sin similar to Adam. Their sin still worked death even if they didn't know they were sinning.
I mean we know that the "wages of sin is death." So shouldn't we ask, whose wages? It seems that you are saying that the wages of ADAM's sin was death to us, but wouldn't you agree that whether sin is imputed by the law, that sin works death in every man who has a carnal mind?
Paul said "For to be carnally minded is death, but the Spirit is life and peace." Romans 8:6. In that same chapter Paul also said that there is no longer any judgment (condemnation) for those who walk according to the Spirit. The judgment he was talking about is in Romans 7, which was the relationship between the law and the carnal mind. Sin used the holy commandment to deceive us and slay us, and we would become "exceeding sinful" and sin would then be REVEALED sin.
The Law revealed sin by the imputation of it so that it would interact with sin in a way that would make it apparent to them who had it, which is why sin was in the world when there was no law. We may disagree, but I see that the "condemnation of death" in Adam is in that we all have a carnal mind which works death and THUS we are condemned in death until the savior comes to kill "the old man."
I am not seeing the purpose in the hypothetical situation which states that "even if we never sinned" because - even though that is scripturally impossible - even if we never committed sin, the condemnation of death we would still have is in the carnal mind that each person individually has.
If I were to answer the question "why do babies die" I would first recognize that we may be talking about different forms of death. They die 1) because they are mortal, and 2) because they were born carnally minded. Mortality is not what Paul is talking about in Romans 5. He is talking about death in sin versus life in Christ. THAT death, carnal death in the carnal mind, is upon each person who is made subject to vanity, which is everyone.
Seth, the focus needs to be where the condemnation is to understand this. Adam received a Judgement. Everyone has yet to receive their judgement since that time. So why would a baby die if the only condemantion that came was by Adam? - because that baby is in Adam and is a sinner (even though that child not knowing right or wrong has committed a sin personally). If we were all dieing now because of the sins that we actually incurred ourselves personally then why would there be a resurrection for some to condemnation later?
Paul
QuoteI agree that everyone is a transgressor. It seems to me is where we disagree is that Willie seems to believe that everyone personally incurred sins since Adam. I don't see a baby dieing moments after it is born as having personally incurred any sins. We all have Adams sin as members of his body. And we received the just condemantion for that sin. So a baby born today would be born with Adam's sin and condemnation. But that doesn't mean that the baby incurred sin itself (committed sins personally). It is simply born with the sin inherited from Adam. So the law is still there as Willie says and as that baby grows it is going to incurr (commit personally) sins by violating those laws.
Do you agree that we may be talking about two different kinds of death? Do you agree that there ARE two different kinds of death? Do you see a difference in mortal death, versus death in the carnal mind?
Babies are born dead, no matter when they mortally die.
QuoteSeth, the focus needs to be where the condemnation is to understand this. Adam received a Judgement. Everyone has yet to receive their judgement since that time. So why would a baby die if the only condemantion that came was by Adam?
They are born dead because death entered in. They are dead though they live.
Quote from: Seth on June 24, 2009, 08:37:44 PM
QuoteI agree that everyone is a transgressor. It seems to me is where we disagree is that Willie seems to believe that everyone personally incurred sins since Adam. I don't see a baby dieing moments after it is born as having personally incurred any sins. We all have Adams sin as members of his body. And we received the just condemantion for that sin. So a baby born today would be born with Adam's sin and condemnation. But that doesn't mean that the baby incurred sin itself (committed sins personally). It is simply born with the sin inherited from Adam. So the law is still there as Willie says and as that baby grows it is going to incurr (commit personally) sins by violating those laws.
Do you agree that we may be talking about two different kinds of death? Do you agree that there ARE two different kinds of death? Do you see a difference in mortal death, versus death in the carnal mind?
Babies are born dead, no matter when they mortally die.
QuoteSeth, the focus needs to be where the condemnation is to understand this. Adam received a Judgement. Everyone has yet to receive their judgement since that time. So why would a baby die if the only condemantion that came was by Adam?
They are born dead because death entered in. They are dead though they live.
I don't believe in two different types of death. I believe death just ends in the destruction of the body.
Paul
So you don't believe that the widow who lives for pleasure is dead though she lives? 1 Timothy 5:6
If you do believe people can be dead though they live, that would mean they are walking in death before their bodies are destroyed in the grave right?
Quote from: Seth on June 24, 2009, 09:25:42 PM
So you don't believe that the widow who lives for pleasure is dead though she lives? 1 Timothy 5:6
If you do believe people can be dead though they live, that would mean they are walking in death before their bodies are destroyed in the grave right?
Sure, I do. Correct. But I don't see them as two different entities but rather a different stage of progression.
Paul
Then the judgment of death STARTS at the time anyone inherits a sinful mind, which is birth. The judgment of death condemnation is not ONLY that people physically die, but that their NATURE confines them to death already. So the destruction of their body is not a punishment for someone else's sin, but the endpoint of the natural progression they inherited before they had a chance to transgress.
willieH: Hi trettep... :hithere:
Quote from: trettep on June 24, 2009, 02:07:35 AMWillie, why do babies die?
Please brother... Can
YOU answer this question? :dontknow:
WHY does ANYONE DIE Paul? God is GOD and He "could've" done this whole thing otherwise (or so we might arrogantly think)... Where NO ONE DIED!
Btw... I lost a grandchild who DIED in my daughters WOMB (about 6 years ago)... so I have first-hand experience with this SORROWFUL scenario...
I can only say that Scripture notes that IN SIN are we CONCIEVED --
Psalms 51:5 --
behold, I was SHAPEN IN INIQUITY and IN SIN did my mother CONCIEVE me.So that even though SIN is manifest BY our actions... that we are brought forth BY SINNERS, equates us to be SINNERS even in innocence... without the manifestation of sinful action. I do not disagree with you that we are part and portion of ADAM and partake IN HIM, of the entry of SIN...
Just as a DOG brings forth a DOG... a SINFUL human being brings forth another SINFUL human being...
I have not objected to the inherited ADVERSITY we all possess... We are created with it as part of our MAKEUP and I have so testified of it...
ALL men are appointed ONCE to die... Babies included... :sigh:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Seth on June 24, 2009, 11:30:26 PM
Then the judgment of death STARTS at the time anyone inherits a sinful mind, which is birth. The judgment of death condemnation is not ONLY that people physically die, but that their NATURE confines them to death already. So the destruction of their body is not a punishment for someone else's sin, but the endpoint of the natural progression they inherited before they had a chance to transgress.
I believe the judgment of death starts the moment we are born. We immediately have to toil which was another portion of the condemnation given to Adam. And yes it is our nature that is already improper when we are born. We are born with adamic nature (carnal creatures).
Paul
Quote from: willieH on June 25, 2009, 12:00:10 AM
willieH: Hi trettep... :hithere:
Quote from: trettep on June 24, 2009, 02:07:35 AMWillie, why do babies die?
Please brother... Can YOU answer this question? :dontknow:
WHY does ANYONE DIE Paul? God is GOD and He "could've" done this whole thing otherwise (or so we might arrogantly think)... Where NO ONE DIED!
Btw... I lost a grandchild who DIED in my daughters WOMB (about 6 years ago)... so I have first-hand experience with this SORROWFUL scenario...
I can only say that Scripture notes that IN SIN are we CONCIEVED -- Psalms 51:5 -- behold, I was SHAPEN IN INIQUITY and IN SIN did my mother CONCIEVE me.
So that even though SIN is manifest BY our actions... that we are brought forth BY SINNERS, equates us to be SINNERS even in innocence... without the manifestation of sinful action. I do not disagree with you that we are part and portion of ADAM and partake IN HIM, of the entry of SIN...
Just as a DOG brings forth a DOG... a SINFUL human being brings forth another SINFUL human being...
I have not objected to the inherited ADVERSITY we all possess... We are created with it as part of our MAKEUP and I have so testified of it...
ALL men are appointed ONCE to die... Babies included...
...willieH :cloud9:
Yes, I agree with what you have said here. I believe babies die simply because we are all of the same nature that has received a condemnation. I'm also sorry to hear about the loss you experienced.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on June 25, 2009, 02:26:48 AM
Quote from: Seth on June 24, 2009, 11:30:26 PM
Then the judgment of death STARTS at the time anyone inherits a sinful mind, which is birth. The judgment of death condemnation is not ONLY that people physically die, but that their NATURE confines them to death already. So the destruction of their body is not a punishment for someone else's sin, but the endpoint of the natural progression they inherited before they had a chance to transgress.
I believe the judgment of death starts the moment we are born. We immediately have to toil which was another portion of the condemnation given to Adam. And yes it is our nature that is already improper when we are born. We are born with adamic nature (carnal creatures).
Paul
I guess we agree then on those particulars. The way I see it, which may differ from you, is rather than a single judgment sentence given to Adam, the sin that entered in is like a virus that all catch upon their birth. So people are not mortal because they are being punished for Adam's sin, but more that because Adam sinned, the resulting death was sent into the earth and reproduced among all who were born. The thing that was confusing was the hypothetical situation (what if nobody ever sinned, they would still die) didn't make sense to me since "not sinning" yet also "dying" didn't compute, and still doesn't if you factor death-in-sin as an unavoidable factor in the death condemnation. In other words, even if nobody committed a trespass, they would still be dead in the carnal mind anyway.
WillieH, as a new dad, I was so sorry to hear about your grandchild.
willieH: Hi trettep and Seth... :hithere:
Thank you both for your concerns for my loss... It indeed was very hard... cried for quite a while... still do, once in awhile. I am happy to know that Josiah's life is in the wonderful hands of Father
YHVH and in some ways... Glad he didn't have to go through all of this...
He will in part be, ...the JOY of the Lord, I shall experience one day! :bgdance:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on June 25, 2009, 03:58:16 AM
willieH: Hi trettep and Seth... :hithere:
Thank you both for your concerns for my loss... It indeed was very hard... cried for quite a while... still do, once in awhile. I am happy to know that Josiah's life is in the wonderful hands of Father YHVH and in some ways... Glad he didn't have to go through all of this...
He will in part be, ...the JOY of the Lord, I shall experience one day! :bgdance:
...willieH :cloud9:
Well he is our brother also Willie. So we should all look forward to that day when we can behold him also. I'm confident we shall.
Paul
even if we would deserve hell, grace wouldn't be grace if we were not saved from something we actually deserve, universalism is God's work, not ours.
at least that we deserve eternal death is scriptural in my opinion, so ALL of us will be saved from something we actually deserve, be it death or hell.