We all deserve Hell

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's true, but they can't get her pregnant by the HG.  :winkgrin:

At least, not yet....... :winkgrin:

[trettep]

I can't believe God judgement can be bypassed by some medical 'trick' in hospital.

Being born of the virgin Mary was not a medical trick.  I'm not sure of the motive of your response.  Please clarify. 

I'm not speaking about Jesus. I was meaning that it might be possible for medicial science, in 2009, to get a virgin pregnant. With a syringe for example. How, why, when isn't really of importance. I mean that even if someone is born of a virgin that doesn't automaticly mean it's a good person.

My reponse was because you wrote:

The only way in which I see that judgement to not apply to someone is if they were born of a virgin.

And I replied saying that I don't believe it's so easy to escape judgement.
That's all...

Well, I'm talking about man's seed.  So when speaking of the Virgin Mary, she wasn't impregnated by man's seed.  While it is true that a woman can get pregant thru artificial insemination, it still requires man's seed for that to happen.  So my comments were related to a virgin would have to conceive not of man's seed.

Paul

[Esoterica]

Okay, I am more New Thought Christian than Fundamentalist Christian. I'm not sure I agree with the idea of original sin. I look at it more that Christ came to show us how to live more compassionately. However, if the concept of original sin is, in fact, true, that would mean the following:

-Humanity came from Adam who messed : ) However, individuals born under Adam did not mess up by their own hand. Therefore,

-Christ died to wipe out Adam's mess up. We, humanity are SAVE not by our own hand or doing the sinner's prayer w/ enough enthusiasm. We are SAVED the same way we were born sinners... we didn't do anything to be born a "sinner" and we didn't do "anything" to be saved. Christ did it for ALL of us. That is, if you believe in original sin.  I'm more of a thought that Christ died to blot out my own committed transgressions and I view it this way...

-Heaven is a sinless place. Therefore there needs to be a way to purify people to enter in. Christ's blood did it.

Just my thoughts.

I see this come up constantly:  We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.

Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?

Scriptures showing we all deserve death would be useful as well.

Thanks,
Legoman

[Esoterica]

Let us clarify "sin" please. In my belief, sin is simply falling short of perfection. I believe this life and earth is like a school. We are BOUND to make mistakes. Most people who we would consider sinful may simply be uneducated and ill-informed about making a better choice.

Let me give an example: A person chooses to use illegal drugs because they believe it is fun and will make them feel good. This is clearly a bad choice. I know it's a bad choice becaus I walked down that road myself and found out the hard way. Now, the person may know on one level that drugs are illegal, drugs can hurt you, and they may know that some people get addicted to them. However, their choice is born out of ignorance because FEW people AFTER they struggle to become free of those bonds would have EVER gone into in the first place.

A person who is angry and abusive... is operating under the assumption that they must "get people back" because that is how your protect yourself. They are ignorant to the law of love.

A person who is nasty to other people is ignorant to the law of cause/effect, karma, or what Christians call "reaping what you sow."

I think most "sin" is making bad choices out of ignorance. Yes, people make some choices born out of wanting to have fun, to profit themselves, to enjoy whatever it is they want (usually in excess). However, they are still ignorant of all the consequences in a real way.

I do feel there is a "concept of evil" that some clearly know in a real way and still choose the wrong way- sin. However, I feel most people fall into the other category.

[trettep]

Okay, I am more New Thought Christian than Fundamentalist Christian. I'm not sure I agree with the idea of original sin. I look at it more that Christ came to show us how to live more compassionately. However, if the concept of original sin is, in fact, true, that would mean the following:

-Humanity came from Adam who messed : ) However, individuals born under Adam did not mess up by their own hand. Therefore,

-Christ died to wipe out Adam's mess up. We, humanity are SAVE not by our own hand or doing the sinner's prayer w/ enough enthusiasm. We are SAVED the same way we were born sinners... we didn't do anything to be born a "sinner" and we didn't do "anything" to be saved. Christ did it for ALL of us. That is, if you believe in original sin.  I'm more of a thought that Christ died to blot out my own committed transgressions and I view it this way...

-Heaven is a sinless place. Therefore there needs to be a way to purify people to enter in. Christ's blood did it.

Just my thoughts.

I see this come up constantly:  We all deserve Hell, no one deserves Heaven, its only by God's mercy that we don't all go to hell.

Where is the scripture that supports this idea of "everyone deserving hell"?

Scriptures showing we all deserve death would be useful as well.

Thanks,
Legoman

Even if you committed NO sins yourself, you would still be condemned for being of the body of Adam.  The Bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the Law.  So even those that didn't have sin (and thus didn't commit sin) still had death because of the condemnation they received via Adam.

Paul

[willieH]

willieH: Hi trettep... :hithere:

Even if you committed NO sins yourself, you would still be condemned for being of the body of Adam.  The Bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the Law.  So even those that didn't have sin (and thus didn't commit sin) still had death because of the condemnation they received via Adam.

Paul

You have deduced an imagined "condition" bro...

NONE are in this condition Paul (not committed sin)... ALL have SINNED -- Rom 3:23 -- so there are NONE which "didn't have SIN"...

UNBELIEF is a SIN -- Rom 14:23 -- and ALL are CONCLUDED IN such by God -- Rom 11:32 -- Which concludes ALL as "sinners"...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi trettep...  :happygrin:

Being born of the virgin Mary was not a medical trick.  I'm not sure of the motive of your response.  Please clarify.  But I will restate that we are all under the condemnation:

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

We are all under the condemnation.  Even before Moses brought the law (before the law), death reigned.  How can that be?  Think about what these verses in Romans are telling us.  It can't be because these others sinned because there was no law.  Where there is no law there is no sin.

The LAW, even though NOT yet Given unto men, was still in force... that man actually DISCOVERED the LAWS of PHYSICS did not prevent them from being IN FORCE up to, during, and after their "discovery" by men, did it?

How could Adam or Eve "sin" if no LAW was in place?  How can you break a LAW which is non-existent?   :dontknow:   The WORD states that SIN ENTERED via ADAM -- Rom 5:12 ...which proves that even though the LAW had yet to be formally given unto men in TIME, it was and IS an ETERNAL entity which was at WORK within the Creation.

SIN is transgression of the LAW... regardless of whether or not the "transgressors" are  aware of the presence and activity of the LAW... SIN is not determined by ones knowledge of LAW... It is determined by violation of its principles, whether the principles are known or unknown.

I can drive "65 mph" in a "50 mph" zone, and that I am unaware that "50 mph" is the limit, does not excuse me from the demand of the LAW which the policeman imposes upon me.

A child can commit the SIN of STEALING, and be unaware he/she has, ...."sinned"...  :dontknow:

Rom 5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So these people died and not because of the law.  The reason is because they are under the condemantion that was pronounced upon Adam:

Rom 5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

I'm not sure I agree with you trettep (but keep in mind, "I'm not sure" --  :laughing7:)...

"Not imputed" does not mean that the LAWS which demand results are not enforced...  such as SIN=DEATH...

"Imputed" means here that even though the LAW was delivering and working DEATH, further "imputing" or "account" of blame was not to be attached...  The word "IMPUTE" in this verse means to "keep in account"...

IOW -- Sin still was causing DEATH and was still a LAW (transgression demanding a result) which was at work, ...however, those receiving those results were not ACCUMULATING blame which in the GRAVE, awaited further JUDGMENT and PUNISHMENT... in addition to the DEATH which the LAW was working in them, due to their transgressions against it...

Once the LAW was actually given, then BLAME (account) was incurring as well, until GRACE came to relieve it ALL... for JUSTIFICATION (establishing justice) for the offenses of SIN is accomplished by GRACE -- Rom 5:18-21 -- For offenses of the LAW cannot exceed the GRACE which MUCH MORE ABOUNDS wherever (whenever) SIN abounds.

You see, the scriptures here are showing that it isn't because we sin that we die (though the wages of sin is death) but it is because of the sin incurred by Adam that we die.  But when the Law did come we are even MORE worthy of death.

I DO NOT agree here bro... MORE "WORTHY"?  Upon what Scripture do you base this?  Even though the LAW was not yet "physically" given, it ALWAYS IS...

The LAW is not a TIME based entity... It is either FULFILLED (JESUS) or UNFULFILLED (US), but nevertheless ...IS... regardless of awareness...  Just as I noted about PHYSICS... Gravity was IN FORCE, before NEWTON or GALILEO or any other before them, "discovered" it to be in force...

SIN is why we die trettep.  That Adam was the first MAN to sin and all men are descendant of him, is evident that it is part of our makeup... We all are MEN, of the human race as was Adam... and just as we have physically -- 2 eyes, ears, legs, arms, a mouth and a nose, also includes the (invisible) ADVERSITY within, which enabled Adam to DISOBEY (transgress) the COMMAND of GOD... and subsequently ALL men as well...

The SIN offense ENTERED by His disobedience, but this ability was also IN EVE, for it was HER act (of disobedience) that came FIRST. 

However, ADAM was given dominion over creation (not Eve -- the "creation" INCLUDED Eve), and his relinquishing of that dominion was found ENTERING Creation in HIS disobedience, not hers... Their "eyes" were not "opened" at HER eating of the fruit, but ...at HIS -- Gen 3:6 -- Eve had eaten, and had no awareness of SIN for no "KNOWLEDGE" was imparted to her for she had no AUTHORITY...  Origin was in HIM, and until ADAM ate, ...Eve's "eyes" remained CLOSED to the KNOWLEDGE...

The "eyes of them BOTH were opened" -- Gen 3:7 -- upon Adam's "eating"... otherwise Eve's eye" would have been noted as "OPEN" before she gave to ADAM to eat... which further displays that she did NOT "know" or she would have refrained from giving him the fruit.

She also displays in her INDEPENDENT disobedience that she had the ability to TRANSGRESS (natural/carnal mind which succumbs to temptation) ...apart from ADAM and was the one IN DECEPTION (but NOT "knowledge")... before ADAM (who obviously also, "possessed the ability").

However, it was HIS offense (disobedience to the command of YHVH) that caused entry of SIN into the world, ...not hers.

So even if Moses never brought us the law at all - death would still be our condemnation.

Agreed... The LAW was still relevant, even though not given.  The "LAW" is obedience to the COMMAND of GOD, and LIFE proceeds from the obedience of it (JESUS = John 14:6) , ...whereas DEATH proceeds from DISOBEDIENCE (ADAM = Gen 3:19)...

That the LAW is not consciously "known" does not prevent it from entering in and actively making its demands result.

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Notice, it doesn't matter what anyone does - or how pure they live their life, if they are born of Adam they are WORTHY of death.  This is why a savior could not come from Adam's seed.

I am not sure "worthy" is the word I would use... WORTHY implies an honorable connotation...

I would think we are become CANDIDATES for DEATH because we are of ADAM... not of our choosing, but of GOD's, ...for GOD brought ADAM forth and DECREED (Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 5:12) that ALL of Adam's descendents would be encased by the act that Adam did in giving himself over to DISOBEDIENCE... THAT is the point here bro.

IN CHRIST, is the creation redeemed and encased due to HIS OBEDIENCE, and is also found DECREED by GOD -- Rom 5:18

The "obedient" (overcoming) FLESH of CHRIST was also found to be DECREED to DIE, bro -- Rev 13:8 -- within the act of RANSOMING those who in their "disobedient" FLESH which NATURALLY tempted them, ...might be redeemed OUT of the state of DEATH which resulted in falling to its temptations.

It is Adam's offense that has caused us to ALL be worthy of death:

Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Again, I recommend a different word other that "worthy"...

The law came to make the offence more Worthy.

Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The LAW did NOT make the offense "WORTHY"... it made it KNOWN!

Since Christ was not born of Adam's seed, He was not under the penalty of Death.  However, since the law entered after the condemnation, Jesus would have to be pure in order to not incurr the penalty of Death.  So Jesus still had to overcome.

Jesus didn't merit Worthiness to be held in death:

Act 2:24  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Sorry to once again disagree brother T... but ADAM is the original MAN... and that
CHRIST was not derived of the "seed" of ADAM did not disassociate Him [Christ] from Him [Adam]...

Which is WHY He entitled Himself -- SON of MAN.  How could He BE the SON of MAN unless He is connected to Him GENEOLOGICALLY?  He could NOT!  He WAS connected and the WORD displays that connection...

That GOD was ONE of His TWO parents, gave CHRIST TWO GENEOLOGIES... and it is so written -- Matt 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38

These 2 geneologies DIFFER from one another...

The FIRST -- Matt 1:1-16 -- is the "Geneology of FAITH" which proceeds from GOD and His PARENTAGE of CHRIST... and the LINEAGE of FAITH... which He UTILIZED to OVERCOME ...This LINEAGE begins with ABRAHAM, and continues through the SON of Abraham [Isaac] which was spared because of FAITH... producing the SON of GOD which would bring LIFE from DEATH.

The SECOND -- Luke 3:23-38 -- is the "Geneology of DISOBEDIENCE" which proceeds from ADAM and his PARENTAGE of CHRIST (who was father to CHRIST in earthly terms) and is the LINEAGE of MAN - DISOBEDIENCE... which He OVERCAME...  This LINEAGE goes [DISOBEDIENTLY] UNITERRUPTED from ADAM to CHRIST... producing the SON of MAN... which would DIE, in bringing LIFE back from DEATH...

...willieH  :egyptdance:

[trettep]

willieH: Hi trettep... :hithere:

Even if you committed NO sins yourself, you would still be condemned for being of the body of Adam.  The Bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the Law.  So even those that didn't have sin (and thus didn't commit sin) still had death because of the condemnation they received via Adam.

Paul

You have deduced an imagined "condition" bro...

NONE are in this condition Paul (not committed sin)... ALL have SINNED -- Rom 3:23 -- so there are NONE which "didn't have SIN"...

UNBELIEF is a SIN -- Rom 14:23 -- and ALL are CONCLUDED IN such by God -- Rom 11:32 -- Which concludes ALL as "sinners"...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

The imagined condition was on purpose.  I believe we also have all sin also.  My statement that even if you haven't "committed" sin is a reference to the fact that you still would have condemnation in Adam.  In other words it is hypothetical.  It is casting the idea of sin to the side to reflect on that understanding that putting sin aside (whether or not you committed it) your still in condemnation.  I used the word "committed" instead of leaving it out to distinguish between you having sin and having committed that sin yourself. 

So let me clarify, that we are all indeed sinners.

Paul 

[trettep]

willieH: Hi trettep...  :happygrin:

Being born of the virgin Mary was not a medical trick.  I'm not sure of the motive of your response.  Please clarify.  But I will restate that we are all under the condemnation:

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

We are all under the condemnation.  Even before Moses brought the law (before the law), death reigned.  How can that be?  Think about what these verses in Romans are telling us.  It can't be because these others sinned because there was no law.  Where there is no law there is no sin.

The LAW, even though NOT yet Given unto men, was still in force... that man actually DISCOVERED the LAWS of PHYSICS did not prevent them from being IN FORCE up to, during, and after their "discovery" by men, did it?

How could Adam or Eve "sin" if no LAW was in place?  How can you break a LAW which is non-existent?   :dontknow:   The WORD states that SIN ENTERED via ADAM -- Rom 5:12 ...which proves that even though the LAW had yet to be formally given unto men in TIME, it was and IS an ETERNAL entity which was at WORK within the Creation.

SIN is transgression of the LAW... regardless of whether or not the "transgressors" are  aware of the presence and activity of the LAW... SIN is not determined by ones knowledge of LAW... It is determined by violation of its principles, whether the principles are known or unknown.

I can drive "65 mph" in a "50 mph" zone, and that I am unaware that "50 mph" is the limit, does not excuse me from the demand of the LAW which the policeman imposes upon me.

A child can commit the SIN of STEALING, and be unaware he/she has, ...."sinned"...  :dontknow:

Rom 5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So these people died and not because of the law.  The reason is because they are under the condemantion that was pronounced upon Adam:

Rom 5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

I'm not sure I agree with you trettep (but keep in mind, "I'm not sure" --  :laughing7:)...

"Not imputed" does not mean that the LAWS which demand results are not enforced...  such as SIN=DEATH...

"Imputed" means here that even though the LAW was delivering and working DEATH, further "imputing" or "account" of blame was not to be attached...  The word "IMPUTE" in this verse means to "keep in account"...

IOW -- Sin still was causing DEATH and was still a LAW (transgression demanding a result) which was at work, ...however, those receiving those results were not ACCUMULATING blame which in the GRAVE, awaited further JUDGMENT and PUNISHMENT... in addition to the DEATH which the LAW was working in them, due to their transgressions against it...

Once the LAW was actually given, then BLAME (account) was incurring as well, until GRACE came to relieve it ALL... for JUSTIFICATION (establishing justice) for the offenses of SIN is accomplished by GRACE -- Rom 5:18-21 -- For offenses of the LAW cannot exceed the GRACE which MUCH MORE ABOUNDS wherever (whenever) SIN abounds.

You see, the scriptures here are showing that it isn't because we sin that we die (though the wages of sin is death) but it is because of the sin incurred by Adam that we die.  But when the Law did come we are even MORE worthy of death.

I DO NOT agree here bro... MORE "WORTHY"?  Upon what Scripture do you base this?  Even though the LAW was not yet "physically" given, it ALWAYS IS...

The LAW is not a TIME based entity... It is either FULFILLED (JESUS) or UNFULFILLED (US), but nevertheless ...IS... regardless of awareness...  Just as I noted about PHYSICS... Gravity was IN FORCE, before NEWTON or GALILEO or any other before them, "discovered" it to be in force...

SIN is why we die trettep.  That Adam was the first MAN to sin and all men are descendant of him, is evident that it is part of our makeup... We all are MEN, of the human race as was Adam... and just as we have physically -- 2 eyes, ears, legs, arms, a mouth and a nose, also includes the (invisible) ADVERSITY within, which enabled Adam to DISOBEY (transgress) the COMMAND of GOD... and subsequently ALL men as well...

The SIN offense ENTERED by His disobedience, but this ability was also IN EVE, for it was HER act (of disobedience) that came FIRST. 

However, ADAM was given dominion over creation (not Eve -- the "creation" INCLUDED Eve), and his relinquishing of that dominion was found ENTERING Creation in HIS disobedience, not hers... Their "eyes" were not "opened" at HER eating of the fruit, but ...at HIS -- Gen 3:6 -- Eve had eaten, and had no awareness of SIN for no "KNOWLEDGE" was imparted to her for she had no AUTHORITY...  Origin was in HIM, and until ADAM ate, ...Eve's "eyes" remained CLOSED to the KNOWLEDGE...

The "eyes of them BOTH were opened" -- Gen 3:7 -- upon Adam's "eating"... otherwise Eve's eye" would have been noted as "OPEN" before she gave to ADAM to eat... which further displays that she did NOT "know" or she would have refrained from giving him the fruit.

She also displays in her INDEPENDENT disobedience that she had the ability to TRANSGRESS (natural/carnal mind which succumbs to temptation) ...apart from ADAM and was the one IN DECEPTION (but NOT "knowledge")... before ADAM (who obviously also, "possessed the ability").

However, it was HIS offense (disobedience to the command of YHVH) that caused entry of SIN into the world, ...not hers.

So even if Moses never brought us the law at all - death would still be our condemnation.

Agreed... The LAW was still relevant, even though not given.  The "LAW" is obedience to the COMMAND of GOD, and LIFE proceeds from the obedience of it (JESUS = John 14:6) , ...whereas DEATH proceeds from DISOBEDIENCE (ADAM = Gen 3:19)...

That the LAW is not consciously "known" does not prevent it from entering in and actively making its demands result.

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Notice, it doesn't matter what anyone does - or how pure they live their life, if they are born of Adam they are WORTHY of death.  This is why a savior could not come from Adam's seed.

I am not sure "worthy" is the word I would use... WORTHY implies an honorable connotation...

I would think we are become CANDIDATES for DEATH because we are of ADAM... not of our choosing, but of GOD's, ...for GOD brought ADAM forth and DECREED (Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 5:12) that ALL of Adam's descendents would be encased by the act that Adam did in giving himself over to DISOBEDIENCE... THAT is the point here bro.

IN CHRIST, is the creation redeemed and encased due to HIS OBEDIENCE, and is also found DECREED by GOD -- Rom 5:18

The "obedient" (overcoming) FLESH of CHRIST was also found to be DECREED to DIE, bro -- Rev 13:8 -- within the act of RANSOMING those who in their "disobedient" FLESH which NATURALLY tempted them, ...might be redeemed OUT of the state of DEATH which resulted in falling to its temptations.

It is Adam's offense that has caused us to ALL be worthy of death:

Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Again, I recommend a different word other that "worthy"...

The law came to make the offence more Worthy.

Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The LAW did NOT make the offense "WORTHY"... it made it KNOWN!

Since Christ was not born of Adam's seed, He was not under the penalty of Death.  However, since the law entered after the condemnation, Jesus would have to be pure in order to not incurr the penalty of Death.  So Jesus still had to overcome.

Jesus didn't merit Worthiness to be held in death:

Act 2:24  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Sorry to once again disagree brother T... but ADAM is the original MAN... and that
CHRIST was not derived of the "seed" of ADAM did not disassociate Him [Christ] from Him [Adam]...

Which is WHY He entitled Himself -- SON of MAN.  How could He BE the SON of MAN unless He is connected to Him GENEOLOGICALLY?  He could NOT!  He WAS connected and the WORD displays that connection...

That GOD was ONE of His TWO parents, gave CHRIST TWO GENEOLOGIES... and it is so written -- Matt 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38

These 2 geneologies DIFFER from one another...

The FIRST -- Matt 1:1-16 -- is the "Geneology of FAITH" which proceeds from GOD and His PARENTAGE of CHRIST... and the LINEAGE of FAITH... which He UTILIZED to OVERCOME ...This LINEAGE begins with ABRAHAM, and continues through the SON of Abraham [Isaac] which was spared because of FAITH... producing the SON of GOD which would bring LIFE from DEATH.

The SECOND -- Luke 3:23-38 -- is the "Geneology of DISOBEDIENCE" which proceeds from ADAM and his PARENTAGE of CHRIST (who was father to CHRIST in earthly terms) and is the LINEAGE of MAN - DISOBEDIENCE... which He OVERCAME...  This LINEAGE goes [DISOBEDIENTLY] UNITERRUPTED from ADAM to CHRIST... producing the SON of MAN... which would DIE, in bringing LIFE back from DEATH...

...willieH  :egyptdance:

I appreciate all you did here but I can't follow along to comment this very well unless you break it out in chunks.  So let me first say that Adam did indeed sin by break a law.  The law Adam broke was to not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.  As for imputing sin:

Psa 32:2  Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Rom 4:8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Bless is that man!  Not punnished.  If we don't have law then we don't have sin.  There is no sin where there is no law.

Now consider these verses again carefully:

Rom 5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

If sin is not inputed then how can one stand accused if they have not sin? - they cannot.  The sins that we have are those of Adam - that is what our condemnation is for.  They are for those he incurred the penalty for.  So you see we are all sinners but it is NOT sin that we committed but that which he committed.  But it is attributed to us as our committed sins because we are of the BODY of Adam.  So if Adam sinned then his body has committed sin and as members of the body we share in the function of the body.

Paul

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Just a sidenote from what has been made life in me....being set free of the law of sin and death is when no sin can be imputed. No sin is imputed because you are walking in the proceeding word of life by which we live or have the life of the Spirit, that came from the Father's mouth.

It is a word of His breath, as opposed to the letter that killeth. Thus it says, we don't live by bread (word/dead letter) alone, but by every word (Spirit breathed) that comes from the Father's mouth.Receiving this Word that is His breath, enables you walk upon the water (waters below the firmament), in the firmament, which is "heaven". Heaven is not a place it's a state of being. The waters below this firmament or heaven, is what subjects us to the rulership of the law/letter, whose purpose is to "kill" the flesh. Blessings....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

willieH: Hi trettep... :hithere:

Even if you committed NO sins yourself, you would still be condemned for being of the body of Adam.  The Bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the Law.  So even those that didn't have sin (and thus didn't commit sin) still had death because of the condemnation they received via Adam.

Paul

You have deduced an imagined "condition" bro...

NONE are in this condition Paul (not committed sin)... ALL have SINNED -- Rom 3:23 -- so there are NONE which "didn't have SIN"...

UNBELIEF is a SIN -- Rom 14:23 -- and ALL are CONCLUDED IN such by God -- Rom 11:32 -- Which concludes ALL as "sinners"...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

The imagined condition was on purpose.  I believe we also have all sin also.  My statement that even if you haven't "committed" sin is a reference to the fact that you still would have condemnation in Adam.  In other words it is hypothetical.  It is casting the idea of sin to the side to reflect on that understanding that putting sin aside (whether or not you committed it) your still in condemnation.  I used the word "committed" instead of leaving it out to distinguish between you having sin and having committed that sin yourself. 

So let me clarify, that we are all indeed sinners.

Paul

It still comes down to INDIVIDUAL accountability doesn't it?  If DEATH is due completely to ADAM, then why am I or You accountable?

ADAM "got the ball rolling", but EACH of us is due his own accountability before God.

And to begin with ADAM, is part of ALL who are CONCLUDED by GOD to be UNBELIEVERS... which in itself is "sin enough" to cause DEATH...

GOD's WILL is WORKING in ALL THINGS bro... Eph 1:11

Part of "ALL THINGS" are the sinful lives of ALL MEN...

It is INTENDED that we "KNOW" Evil, which results in SIN, that we might ALL gain the "knowledge" and thereby BE as GOD is, ...intimately by EXPERIENCE, ..."KNOWING" Evil...   :sigh:

But more importantly, it is also INTENDED that we "KNOW" Good as well, which is the REDEEMER from Evil and Sin... that we shall BE as God is, ...intimately by EXPERIENCE, ..."KNOWING" Good...   :LoveH1:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Beloved Servant]

:cloud9: That's true, but they can't get her pregnant by the HG.  :winkgrin:

At least, not yet....... :winkgrin:

That's funny.

[trettep]

It still comes down to INDIVIDUAL accountability doesn't it?  If DEATH is due completely to ADAM, then why am I or You accountable?

ADAM "got the ball rolling", but EACH of us is due his own accountability before God.

And to begin with ADAM, is part of ALL who are CONCLUDED by GOD to be UNBELIEVERS... which in itself is "sin enough" to cause DEATH...

GOD's WILL is WORKING in ALL THINGS bro... Eph 1:11

Part of "ALL THINGS" are the sinful lives of ALL MEN...

It is INTENDED that we "KNOW" Evil, which results in SIN, that we might ALL gain the "knowledge" and thereby BE as GOD is, ...intimately by EXPERIENCE, ..."KNOWING" Evil...   :sigh:

But more importantly, it is also INTENDED that we "KNOW" Good as well, which is the REDEEMER from Evil and Sin... that we shall BE as God is, ...intimately by EXPERIENCE, ..."KNOWING" Good...   :LoveH1:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

I'm still trying to understand completely where we disagree.  Do you disagree that all of us have incurred the penalty of death due to Adam's transgression?  Are you of the belief that Adam's transgression doesn't mean necessarily that we have incurred the penalty of death?

Paul

[willieH]

willieH: Hi trettep...  :happygrin:

I appreciate all you did here but I can't follow along to comment this very well unless you break it out in chunks.

I did break it into "chunks", brother Paul... take each "chunk" you might wish to answer, and answer it, bro.

So let me first say that Adam did indeed sin by break a law.  The law Adam broke was to not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I believe the LAW that Adam broke was the FIRST COMMANDMENT... for he held HIS WILL above the COMMAND of YHVH...

SITTING in the TEMPLE of GOD, and acting as if HE is GOD, ...placing HIMSELF and HIS "decision to eat", above YHVH and YHVH's stated DECISION that he (Adam) NOT eat of the tree... and thereby holding himself and his "will" ABOVE the COMMAND of YHVH... overriding it, ...and therein transgressing it...

Within His decision to eat, Adam obviously concluded that he would NOT DIE as YHVH had noted, and thereby DISBELIEVED God... also committing the SIN of UNBELIEF.

As for imputing sin:

Psa 32:2  Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Rom 4:8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Bless is that man!  Not punnished.  If we don't have law then we don't have sin.  There is no sin where there is no law.

Yes it is indeed a BLESSING  :myahoo: ...and it is unto ALL MEN... which compose, the "WORLD"...

2 Cor 5:19  to wit, that God was in CHRIST, reconciling the WORLD, unto Himself -- NOT IMPUTING their trespasses UNTO THEM; and hath commited unto us, the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2  and He is the propitiation for our sins, and NOT for ours ONLY, but also for (the sins of) the WHOLE WORLD

Punishment is NOT part of the GOSPEL message... PUNISHMENT is NOT ...GOOD NEWS... it is proposal of FEAR and TORMENT... and defiles the GOSPEL (which is EXCLUSIVELY GOOD NEWS) in its presentation...

LAW is present, regardless of the awareness of men... The LAW of GOD, ALWAYS IS...  :dontknow:  It did not come into "being" at Mt. Sinai... it was IN EFFECT all along.  When CAIN slew ABEL... he committed SIN against the LAW which states THOU SHALT NOT KILL... even though that "LAW" was yet to be KNOWN...

Otherwise, GOD is shown to be UNFAIR to both ADAM and CAIN... for if there was NO LAW, then how can one "sin", when SIN ...IS... transgression of the LAW? --1 John 3:4

These 2 did not have SIN IMPUTED (accounted against them, for the LAW had yet to be PUBLISHED KNOWLEDGE)... but they STILL suffered the result of TRANSGRESSING it...

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of ADAM'S ...TRANSGRESSION... who is the figure of Him that was to come...

How can ADAM, ..."transgress" something that is NOT THERE?

I can drink a glass of water containing DEADLY  FLAVORLESS, ODORLESS poison... because I am UNAWARE of the POISON, does NOT preclude the DEADLY effects of the POISON upon me...  :dontknow:

Now consider these verses again carefully:

Rom 5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

If sin is not inputed then how can one stand accused if they have not sin? - they cannot.

There is quite a difference between ACCUSATION, and PUNISHMENT... The LAW is that which ACCUSES us... and correctly so -- Rom 7:9-13 -- We are found accountable before God, but it is the Religion of MAN which requires PUNISHMENT for SIN...

The WRATH of GOD ...is... revealed... and IS occuring against each of us, in ALL the UNGODLINESSES and UNRIGHTEOUSNESSES in which we participate -- Rom 1:18

The sins that we have are those of Adam - that is what our condemnation is for.  They are for those he incurred the penalty for.  So you see we are all sinners but it is NOT sin that we committed but that which he committed.  But it is attributed to us as our committed sins because we are of the BODY of Adam.  So if Adam sinned then his body has committed sin and as members of the body we share in the function of the body.

Paul

In this I find both agreement and disagreement... We ARE descendents of ADAM, and SIN DID enter the human race within his experience... but as INDIVIDUAL beings, we cannot lay the BLAME of our own SIN at HIS FEET...

We are EACH accountable... and must face GOD individually for our lives... As I see it, this is already going on -- John 12:31 --  For when GOD is revealed ALL in ALL, then NOTHING is left to SECRECY...

Life is a teacher as well as the WORD Brother Paul... God has set up life and the working of LAW within life, to be the measure which keeps things in harmonious flow... It is the breaking of that flow which isolates men, causing them penalty which they must face as individuals... If my son (35yrs old) gets in trouble with the law, ...I do not face the judge, HE DOES... and because he made a bad decision could partially reflect upon me depending upon what area it fell in, but in the end... He faces up to the "rules" as a man himself, and cannot and SHOULD NOT, cast his blame upon me...

My  :2c:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Of course Adam knew the law; Adam was a priest unto God. That's how Cain and Able knew to do sacrifice. My  :2c: Blessings...

[Seth]

I think WillieH is making a good point and I just wanted to see if I am understanding as he intends. Willie, you are saying (I'm paraphrasing):

1. The higher law (love) existed before its expression in the "law of Moses" (which were hung on love)
2. That explains why "sin was in the world" before Moses, because the law always existed, yet without the enumerated commandments, sin was not IMPUTED, nevertheless the wages of sin were resulting in death, and man needed to be aware of it which is why the imputation was necessary

If that is the gist, then I totally agree with what you are saying.

[trettep]

willieH: Hi trettep...  :happygrin:

I appreciate all you did here but I can't follow along to comment this very well unless you break it out in chunks.

I did break it into "chunks", brother Paul... take each "chunk" you might wish to answer, and answer it, bro.

So let me first say that Adam did indeed sin by break a law.  The law Adam broke was to not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I believe the LAW that Adam broke was the FIRST COMMANDMENT... for he held HIS WILL above the COMMAND of YHVH...

SITTING in the TEMPLE of GOD, and acting as if HE is GOD, ...placing HIMSELF and HIS "decision to eat", above YHVH and YHVH's stated DECISION that he (Adam) NOT eat of the tree... and thereby holding himself and his "will" ABOVE the COMMAND of YHVH... overriding it, ...and therein transgressing it...

Within His decision to eat, Adam obviously concluded that he would NOT DIE as YHVH had noted, and thereby DISBELIEVED God... also committing the SIN of UNBELIEF.

As for imputing sin:

Psa 32:2  Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Rom 4:8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Bless is that man!  Not punnished.  If we don't have law then we don't have sin.  There is no sin where there is no law.

Yes it is indeed a BLESSING  :myahoo: ...and it is unto ALL MEN... which compose, the "WORLD"...

2 Cor 5:19  to wit, that God was in CHRIST, reconciling the WORLD, unto Himself -- NOT IMPUTING their trespasses UNTO THEM; and hath commited unto us, the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2  and He is the propitiation for our sins, and NOT for ours ONLY, but also for (the sins of) the WHOLE WORLD

Punishment is NOT part of the GOSPEL message... PUNISHMENT is NOT ...GOOD NEWS... it is proposal of FEAR and TORMENT... and defiles the GOSPEL (which is EXCLUSIVELY GOOD NEWS) in its presentation...

LAW is present, regardless of the awareness of men... The LAW of GOD, ALWAYS IS...  :dontknow:  It did not come into "being" at Mt. Sinai... it was IN EFFECT all along.  When CAIN slew ABEL... he committed SIN against the LAW which states THOU SHALT NOT KILL... even though that "LAW" was yet to be KNOWN...

Otherwise, GOD is shown to be UNFAIR to both ADAM and CAIN... for if there was NO LAW, then how can one "sin", when SIN ...IS... transgression of the LAW? --1 John 3:4

These 2 did not have SIN IMPUTED (accounted against them, for the LAW had yet to be PUBLISHED KNOWLEDGE)... but they STILL suffered the result of TRANSGRESSING it...

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of ADAM'S ...TRANSGRESSION... who is the figure of Him that was to come...

How can ADAM, ..."transgress" something that is NOT THERE?

I can drink a glass of water containing DEADLY  FLAVORLESS, ODORLESS poison... because I am UNAWARE of the POISON, does NOT preclude the DEADLY effects of the POISON upon me...  :dontknow:

Now consider these verses again carefully:

Rom 5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

If sin is not inputed then how can one stand accused if they have not sin? - they cannot.

There is quite a difference between ACCUSATION, and PUNISHMENT... The LAW is that which ACCUSES us... and correctly so -- Rom 7:9-13 -- We are found accountable before God, but it is the Religion of MAN which requires PUNISHMENT for SIN...

The WRATH of GOD ...is... revealed... and IS occuring against each of us, in ALL the UNGODLINESSES and UNRIGHTEOUSNESSES in which we participate -- Rom 1:18

The sins that we have are those of Adam - that is what our condemnation is for.  They are for those he incurred the penalty for.  So you see we are all sinners but it is NOT sin that we committed but that which he committed.  But it is attributed to us as our committed sins because we are of the BODY of Adam.  So if Adam sinned then his body has committed sin and as members of the body we share in the function of the body.

Paul

In this I find both agreement and disagreement... We ARE descendents of ADAM, and SIN DID enter the human race within his experience... but as INDIVIDUAL beings, we cannot lay the BLAME of our own SIN at HIS FEET...

We are EACH accountable... and must face GOD individually for our lives... As I see it, this is already going on -- John 12:31 --  For when GOD is revealed ALL in ALL, then NOTHING is left to SECRECY...

Life is a teacher as well as the WORD Brother Paul... God has set up life and the working of LAW within life, to be the measure which keeps things in harmonious flow... It is the breaking of that flow which isolates men, causing them penalty which they must face as individuals... If my son (35yrs old) gets in trouble with the law, ...I do not face the judge, HE DOES... and because he made a bad decision could partially reflect upon me depending upon what area it fell in, but in the end... He faces up to the "rules" as a man himself, and cannot and SHOULD NOT, cast his blame upon me...

My  :2c:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Willie, why do babies die?

Paul

[trettep]

:cloud9: Of course Adam knew the law; Adam was a priest unto God. That's how Cain and Able knew to do sacrifice. My  :2c: Blessings...

Yes, the law was there as Willi says but the condemnation of death was there from Adam not from the transgression of the Law that alwas was there.  Those verses in Romans are showing that DEATH is a result of the condemnation we have in Adam.

Paul

[Seth]

Paul,
I re-read the posts up to this point and I was wondering about something you said. You said that

"If sin is not inputed then how can one stand accused if they have not sin? - they cannot."

Isn't there a difference between someone HAVING sin, and someone's sin being imputed? Your basis is that we have sin, but it's Adam's transgressions that are being condemned for, right? But if you agree that "the law was there" then I don't see how the argument that we are being condemned for another person's sin holds anymore. If "the law was there" as Willie is saying, then everyone is a transgressor whether they knew it or not, only that it wasn't imputed until the Law of Moses, right?

One of the issues is what does it mean to sin "after the simultitude of Adam's transgression." I think you and I would agree that there is a marked difference between sinning in ignorance and sinning after knowing God's command. Adam transgressed after knowing God's command, and was not decieved. He sinned anyway. Those who sin in the simultitude of THAT transgression do so knowing God's command. If the law was always there, before Moses, all could still transgress but they would be sinning in ignorance until the Law was given by Moses, so almost none were transgressing similar to Adam. This is why death reigned even to those who did not sin similar to Adam. Their sin still worked death even if they didn't know they were sinning.

I mean we know that the "wages of sin is death." So shouldn't we ask, whose wages? It seems that you are saying that the wages of ADAM's sin was death to us, but wouldn't you agree that whether sin is imputed by the law, that sin works death in every man who has a carnal mind?

Paul said "For to be carnally minded is death, but the Spirit is life and peace." Romans 8:6. In that same chapter Paul also said that there is no longer any judgment (condemnation) for those who walk according to the Spirit. The judgment he was talking about is in Romans 7, which was the relationship between the law and the carnal mind. Sin used the holy commandment to deceive us and slay us, and we would become "exceeding sinful" and sin would then be REVEALED sin.

The Law revealed sin by the imputation of it so that it would interact with sin in a way that would make it apparent to them who had it, which is why sin was in the world when there was no law. We may disagree, but I see that the "condemnation of death" in Adam is in that we all have a carnal mind which works death and THUS we are condemned in death until the savior comes to kill "the old man."

I am not seeing the purpose in the hypothetical situation which states that "even if we never sinned" because - even though that is scripturally impossible - even if we never committed sin, the condemnation of death we would still have is in the carnal mind that each person individually has.

If I were to answer the question "why do babies die" I would first recognize that we may be talking about different forms of death. They die 1) because they are mortal, and 2) because they were born carnally minded. Mortality is not what Paul is talking about in Romans 5. He is talking about death in sin versus life in Christ. THAT death, carnal death in the carnal mind, is upon each person who is made subject to vanity, which is everyone.

[trettep]

Paul,
I re-read the posts up to this point and I was wondering about something you said. You said that

"If sin is not inputed then how can one stand accused if they have not sin? - they cannot."

Isn't there a difference between someone HAVING sin, and someone's sin being imputed? Your basis is that we have sin, but it's Adam's transgressions that are being condemned for, right? But if you agree that "the law was there" then I don't see how the argument that we are being condemned for another person's sin holds anymore. If "the law was there" as Willie is saying, then everyone is a transgressor whether they knew it or not, only that it wasn't imputed until the Law of Moses, right?

I agree that everyone is a transgressor.  It seems to me is where we disagree is that Willie seems to believe that everyone personally incurred sins since Adam.  I don't see a baby dieing moments after it is born as having personally incurred any sins.  We all have Adams sin as members of his body.  And we received the just condemantion for that sin.  So a baby born today would be born with Adam's sin and condemnation.  But that doesn't mean that the baby incurred sin itself (committed sins personally).  It is simply born with the sin inherited from Adam.  So the law is still there as Willie says and as that baby grows it is going to incurr (commit personally) sins by violating those laws.

One of the issues is what does it mean to sin "after the simultitude of Adam's transgression." I think you and I would agree that there is a marked difference between sinning in ignorance and sinning after knowing God's command. Adam transgressed after knowing God's command, and was not decieved. He sinned anyway. Those who sin in the simultitude of THAT transgression do so knowing God's command. If the law is always there, before Moses, all could still transgress, just not similar to Adam, they would be sinning in ignorance. This is why death reigned even to those who did not sin similar to Adam. Their sin still worked death even if they didn't know they were sinning.

I mean we know that the "wages of sin is death." So shouldn't we ask, whose wages? It seems that you are saying that the wages of ADAM's sin was death to us, but wouldn't you agree that whether sin is imputed by the law, that sin works death in every man who has a carnal mind?

Paul said "For to be carnally minded is death, but the Spirit is life and peace." Romans 8:6. In that same chapter Paul also said that there is no longer any judgment (condemnation) for those who walk according to the Spirit. The judgment he was talking about is in Romans 7, which was the relationship between the law and the carnal mind. Sin used the holy commandment to deceive us and slay us, and we would become "exceeding sinful" and sin would then be REVEALED sin.

The Law revealed sin by the imputation of it so that it would interact with sin in a way that would make it apparent to them who had it, which is why sin was in the world when there was no law. We may disagree, but I see that the "condemnation of death" in Adam is in that we all have a carnal mind which works death and THUS we are condemned in death until the savior comes to kill "the old man."

I am not seeing the purpose in the hypothetical situation which states that "even if we never sinned" because - even though that is scripturally impossible - even if we never committed sin, the condemnation of death we would still have is in the carnal mind that each person individually has.

If I were to answer the question "why do babies die" I would first recognize that we may be talking about different forms of death. They die 1) because they are mortal, and 2) because they were born carnally minded. Mortality is not what Paul is talking about in Romans 5. He is talking about death in sin versus life in Christ. THAT death, carnal death in the carnal mind, is upon each person who is made subject to vanity, which is everyone.

Seth, the focus needs to be where the condemnation is to understand this.  Adam received a Judgement.  Everyone has yet to receive their judgement since that time.  So why would a baby die if the only condemantion that came was by Adam? - because that baby is in Adam and is a sinner (even though that child not knowing right or wrong has committed a sin personally).  If we were all dieing now because of the sins that we actually incurred ourselves personally then why would there be a resurrection for some to condemnation later?

Paul

[Seth]

I agree that everyone is a transgressor.  It seems to me is where we disagree is that Willie seems to believe that everyone personally incurred sins since Adam.  I don't see a baby dieing moments after it is born as having personally incurred any sins.  We all have Adams sin as members of his body.  And we received the just condemantion for that sin.  So a baby born today would be born with Adam's sin and condemnation.  But that doesn't mean that the baby incurred sin itself (committed sins personally).  It is simply born with the sin inherited from Adam.  So the law is still there as Willie says and as that baby grows it is going to incurr (commit personally) sins by violating those laws.

Do you agree that we may be talking about two different kinds of death? Do you agree that there ARE two different kinds of death? Do you see a difference in mortal death, versus death in the carnal mind?

Babies are born dead, no matter when they mortally die.

Seth, the focus needs to be where the condemnation is to understand this.  Adam received a Judgement.  Everyone has yet to receive their judgement since that time.  So why would a baby die if the only condemantion that came was by Adam?

They are born dead because death entered in. They are dead though they live.

[trettep]

I agree that everyone is a transgressor.  It seems to me is where we disagree is that Willie seems to believe that everyone personally incurred sins since Adam.  I don't see a baby dieing moments after it is born as having personally incurred any sins.  We all have Adams sin as members of his body.  And we received the just condemantion for that sin.  So a baby born today would be born with Adam's sin and condemnation.  But that doesn't mean that the baby incurred sin itself (committed sins personally).  It is simply born with the sin inherited from Adam.  So the law is still there as Willie says and as that baby grows it is going to incurr (commit personally) sins by violating those laws.

Do you agree that we may be talking about two different kinds of death? Do you agree that there ARE two different kinds of death? Do you see a difference in mortal death, versus death in the carnal mind?

Babies are born dead, no matter when they mortally die.

Seth, the focus needs to be where the condemnation is to understand this.  Adam received a Judgement.  Everyone has yet to receive their judgement since that time.  So why would a baby die if the only condemantion that came was by Adam?

They are born dead because death entered in. They are dead though they live.

I don't believe in two different types of death.  I believe death just ends in the destruction of the body.

Paul

[Seth]

So you don't believe that the widow who lives for pleasure is dead though she lives? 1 Timothy 5:6

If you do believe people can be dead though they live, that would mean they are walking in death before their bodies are destroyed in the grave right?

[trettep]

So you don't believe that the widow who lives for pleasure is dead though she lives? 1 Timothy 5:6

If you do believe people can be dead though they live, that would mean they are walking in death before their bodies are destroyed in the grave right?

Sure, I do.  Correct.  But I don't see them as two different entities but rather a different stage of progression.

Paul

[Seth]

Then the judgment of death STARTS at the time anyone inherits a sinful mind, which is birth. The judgment of death condemnation is not ONLY that people physically die, but that their NATURE confines them to death already. So the destruction of their body is not a punishment for someone else's sin, but the endpoint of the natural progression they inherited before they had a chance to transgress.