End times?

[Molly]

"is passed" [from death to life.]

G3327
μεταβαίνω
metabainō
met-ab-ah'ee-no
From G3326 and the base of G939; to change place: - depart, go, pass, remove.

[Barry DuPont]

Good post Molly!

Next question for anyone while I await some views on John 5:23-25 if anyone wishes to exchange thoughts.

Did Christ die in sin?
IE did he die sin death?

Blessings Barry

[Molly]

The wages of sin is death.

But Christ was without sin.  

Thus, he was able to pay the ransom [wages] for us with his death.

He took on death for all of us.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

[Barry DuPont]

The wages of sin is death.

But Christ was without sin. 

Thus, he was able to pay the ransom [wages] for us with his death.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Good point, if Christ did die sin death, then it would not have been that of his own (sins or sin).

But did He die in sins?
Did he die sin death?

Barry

[Molly]

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



I'm not sure what you mean by 'sin death.'  Is there a different type of death?  I've personally always thought that Jesus could have lived forever in the body he was in.  He was without sin, spot, or blemish.  He was perfect.  Nor could anyone lay a hand on him unless he allowed it.

He died for our sins.

His resurrected body is for those who have already died.  But I wonder if those not yet dead will need a resurrected body.

[Barry DuPont]

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



I'm not sure what you mean by 'sin death.'  Is there a different type of death?  I've personally always thought that Jesus could have lived forever in the body he was in.  He was without sin, spot, or blemish.  He was perfect.  Nor could anyone lay a hand on him unless he allowed it.

He died for our sins.

His resurrected body is for those who have already died.  But I wonder if those not yet dead will need a resurrected body.

Really powerful verse Molly.
Here too:

1Pe 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 

So the next question could be (for anyone who would like to exchange ideas on it):
"When Christ was raised from the dead was this sin that he bore in his body raised up with him?"

Don't think that I'm ignoring your other questions Molly, will try my best to touch on them shortly.

Barry

[Doug]

Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.  

What did Jesus mean by "is passed from death unto life"? Not that a person would not eventually die, but that he had become a "son of God."

That is what man was created to become, to be made "in his image." [Gen. 1:26]

To receive the indwelling Holy Spirit is the first step.

John 3:3-8
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The Spirit is called the spirit of truth [John 14:17] which is the "earnest" and "seal" of God in our hearts. [2 Cor. 1:22] Those who have received the Spirit are compared to unborn children, who are nourished within their mother, in preparation for a "birth" to immortality, which only Christ has yet obtained. [1 Tim. 6:16] The church is the woman in Rev. 12, who is pictured as a mother who "pains to be delivered."

Rev 12:2
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Christians are described as "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." [Rev. 12:17]

The saints who have died in the past, who await resurrection to immortality, are said to be "alive" to God. This was taught by Jesus, when he said of Abraham Isaac, and Jacob:

Matthew 22:31-33
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Although they await the resurrection, and are said to be "asleep" in their graves, as are all the saints who have died, to God they live, because God remembers them.

Jhn 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.  
Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;  

Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?

It is probably a good idea to took at the above verses in the context of the verses immediately following.

John 5:27-29
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

Jesus said, "all that are in the graves" will hear his voice. And he refers to two kinds of resurrections. One is to life, the other to judgment. The resurrection to life is the hope of a Christian; Paul said, "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." [Phil. 3:11] So it is something we need to seek, and strive for, as for a pearl of great price.

Jesus said,

Matthew 13:45-46
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

In the holy city in Rev. 21:21 each of the 12 gates is a single pearl, so to gain entry to the kingdom of God and the holy city is the "pearl of great price."

John 5:25 shows that Christ is the one who gives life, whether the Spirit of truth [John 14:17] and the "earnest" and "seal" of God now, or the immortality that is promised to the saints at the resurrection. It does not have to be "either-or," but just as a pregnant mother anticipates the birth of her child, the saints anticipate their future inheritance and being "born" to immortality.

The real "subject" in these verses is Christ as the life-giver, who has authority to execute judgment.

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug,


Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 
Jhn 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 
Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Are these folks dead physically or in some other way?
I read your post was not really sure what you thought of verse 25.

Blessings, Barry

[Doug]

Hey Doug,


Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 
Jhn 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 
Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Are these folks dead physically or in some other way?
I read your post was not really sure what you thought of verse 25.

Blessings, Barry

Jesus spoke of those in unbelief as being dead metaphorically. [Mat. 8:22] This could apply to "the dead" in John 5:25, and Jesus could also refer to those who had died physically in previous ages, as when he said "the dead," that includes all who had died up till then. So as I suggested, it does not have to mean one, or the other, exclusively. Why should it?

Doug

[Cardinal]

Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.  
Jhn 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.  
Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;  

Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?

Barry

:cloud9: I'm not Doug, but I'll put in my  :2c: on this as well as the question in a later post about sin in His body.

Jesus said I only speak what I hear my FATHER speak, ie. a proceeding word from the Father's mouth. The Father, being a Spirit, said man shall not live by bread (letter understanding) alone but every Spirit breathed word/breath that proceeds from the Father's mouth.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said , It is written , Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

:cloud9: The written Word is LITERALLY a record of the defeat of DEATH by the LIFE of the SPIRIT contained as the hidden manna in that same Word, whose Spirit IS Christ. This LIFE of the Spirit is not revealed to us so we can go on our merry way in the way of all flesh that perishes, but is revealed for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of changing these vile bodies into one like His glorious body, ie. to experience and MANIFEST that Word THAT IS SPIRIT.

1Cor. 15:6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

:cloud9: Let's look at the word in boldface there, asleep, which comes from a root word meaning, among other things;

1.  to lie, ie., speaking of an INFANT, a CITY (multiple expressions) set upon a hill, of things like GRAIN/Word laid up together, things set in place, SET AS APPOINTED OF LAWS, appointed by God, a FOUNDATION, something that LIES in the power of the evil one.

:cloud9: When we hang onto the letter understanding of the Word we are as one lying ASLEEP like an INFANT, DEAD, GRAIN that has not been threshed to remove the chaff and so expose the PURE GRAIN underneath, the foundation, ie. waters BELOW the firmament, which is subject to or LIES in the power of the evil one, who comes not but to KILL, STEAL (our inheritance) and DESTROY (the vessels He wants to manifest thru).

This is why the CHILD differeth nothing from a SERVANT (the letter/waters below the firmament) because although it was provided 2000 years ago, we STILL have to grow and mature to APPREHEND that which we have been apprehended FOR.

Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

:cloud9: Notice there, that it says he is lord of all (positionally, but not experiential-ly), but because of IMMATURITY (and we ALL start there), he is no different than a servant, ie. one who still has the veil upon his face/nature, which ties in with the napkin or "veil' being upon Jesus's face, AS LONG AS HE WAS DEAD. Which is why here that napkin was related to the UNprofitable servant....

Luke 19:20 And another came , saying , Lord, behold , here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: .

:cloud9: But the clue is in what happened to that veil they call a napkin in NT, ie. the part that covered the face. Face speaks of nature. If you are walking down a long road coming towards someone in the distance, you don't really know who it is until they get close enough for you to see their face.

This napkin, unlike the graveclothes which were just thrown down, was found in a particular manner, IN THE TOMB/GRAVE. It is not a coincidence that He called the Pharisees who wanted to hang onto the scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life, WHITED SEPULCHERS.

John 20:7  And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself

:cloud9: There was a Hebrew tradition between master/servant in that day that every Jewish boy knew, that involved how the servant tended the table of His master. If the master was done eating, the napkin would be crumpled up and thrown down, signaling He was done. But if he got up and left the napkin in order, it meant, I'M COMING BACK.

Now the significance to us is unmistakable, because the HEAD speaks of FIRSTFRUITS, and if He had done all He was going to do FIRSTFRUITS-wise THEN, He would have left the napkin crumpled up as the grave-clothes were, signifying the end. But He didn't; He rolled it up, because that speaks of those that are firstfruits to follow. He was a forerunner of them that go beyond the veil.

And as further proof, the words there translated "wrapped together" comes from a root word there meaning, "TO ROLL UP TOGETHER." Which is why we are as the tent or tabernacle He dwells in.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a TENT TO DWELL IN:

:cloud9: If you understand that all of natural creation (outer court realm) is as the waters below the firmament (the firmament it said was heaven), that this realm is itself as a "heaven",  and that as such they are all subject to the letter/law as long as they live. So therefore we are also word as natural creation/letter, then you see how and why He subjected ALL under death (ROLLED UP), that all might live (OPENED ROLL= MANIFESTATION) at the appointed time of the Father.

So this is why when you jump ahead to Revelation, you read this.......

1  And I saw IN THE RIGHT HAND OF HIM THAT SAT ON THE THRONE A BOOK written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.   2  And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?   3  And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.   4  And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.   5  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold , the Lion of * the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book (SCROLL), and to loose the seven seals thereof.

:cloud9: Two things here; note that the book is the hand of Him that sat on the throne. In a previous post, I pointed out that we were placed on the throne with Him, which is why rivers of living water come out of our bellies, because we have been seated by the baptism in the Spirit, in heavenly places with Him. And why the baptism in the Spirit is as a seal being opened.

Additionally, the word "BOOK" there is translated from a word that means "SCROLL".

Here, in Isaiah, He is proclaiming about the curse that came on all nations, the natural creation, that being death thru submission of the carnal mind, ie. to be carnally minded is death, our "scroll" rolled up.

Isaiah 34:1  Come near , ye nations, to hear ; and hearken , ye people: let the earth hear , and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.  2  For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.   3  Their slain also shall be cast out , and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.   4  And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved , and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down , as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

:cloud9: It is repeated in Revelation here......

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together ; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

:cloud9: So now that you know that a rolled up scroll is us under the dominion of the carnal mind/subjected to the letter, in these carcasses of flesh, which is what we were lowered into, BUT SUBJECTED to IN HOPE, Christ in YOU (not Christ "out there" somewhere) the hope of glory, BECAUSE HE MUST COME BACK TO OPEN/UNROLL THE SCROLL/NAPKIN UPON HIS FIRSTFRUITS, because He was a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of THEM THAT SLEEP. Which is why this in Romans and Corinthians is worded the way it is.....

Romans 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH (not is already) for the manifestation of the sons of God.   20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,   21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.   22  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.   23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.   24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth , why doth he yet hope for ?

1Corinthians 15:20  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  22  For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; AFTERWARD they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING.

:cloud9: The "creature" ie. creation, is not waiting on us to DIE, men have been continuing to do that for the last 2000 years. They're waiting on the FIRSTFRUITS to LIVE. Blessings....

[Doug]

Here, in Isaiah, He is proclaiming about the curse that came on all nations, the natural creation, that being death thru submission of the carnal mind, ie. to be carnally minded is death, our "scroll" rolled up.

Isaiah 34:1  Come near , ye nations, to hear ; and hearken , ye people: let the earth hear , and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.  2  For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.   3  Their slain also shall be cast out , and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.   4  And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved , and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down , as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

:cloud9: It is repeated in Revelation here......

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together ; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

:cloud9: So now that you know that a rolled up scroll is us under the dominion of the carnal mind in these carcasses of flesh, which is what we were lowered into, BUT SUBJECTED but IN HOPE, Christ in YOU (not Christ "out there" somewhere) the hope of glory, BECAUSE HE MUST COME BACK TO OPEN/UNROLL THE SCROLL/NAPKIN UPON HIS FIRSTFRUITS, because He was a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of THEM THAT SLEEP. Which is why this in Romans and Corinthians is worded the way it is.....

Here is a different interpretation of the heavens being rolled together as a scroll. The essential idea in Isaiah's prophecy is that when a scroll is rolled together, the spindles meet, preventing any further rotation.


(http://www.sentex.net/%7Etcc/scroll1.gif)

Isaiah 34
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

In verse 5, this is telling us about God's "sword," which is symbolic of the scriptures. Paul called the scriptures a "sword."

Eph. 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Similarly, the author of Hebrews wrote:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Isaiah said God's sword is "bathed in heaven." Perhaps, the sword is "steeped" or "soaked" in heaven, because this prophecy about the heavens being rolled together as a scroll demonstrates the effectiveness of God's word. Isaiah's prophecy has come to pass, precisely. In the ancient cosmology of the Greeks, and other nations, the heavens were thought to revolve around the earth, and the earth remained stationary at the center of the universe. This required the concept of a rigid spherical heaven, or firmament. But after the scientific revolution, in the mid eighteenth century, the supposed revolutions of the heavens ceased, like the spindles of a scroll cease rotating, when it is rolled together.  

The rigid heaven of the ancient cosmology, and all the planetary spheres, have been forever abolished. The diurnal rotation was attributed to the earth, instead of heaven. This is an excellent vindication of God's word, but it was not recognized by the Bible scholars and critics, or by the clergy, who all missed this amazing fulfillment of prophecy!

Paul says the warfare of the church is not against flesh and blood. So who are the ones who are slain in Isaiah's prophecy? Are they people? The armies of the nations? Or are these enemies spiritual? The following verse depicts a spiritual warfare:

Rev. 12:7-8
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Angels, or spirits, at war in heaven suggest this is not referring to a flesh and blood struggle. But the saints are involved in it.

Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The saints need to overcome the deceptions of Satan, and discover the truth. Perhaps the "slain" in Isaiah's prophecy are the doctrines and theories that Christ makes war against, by His word, and flawed interpretations of prophecy, that the saints eventually overcome. The "mountains" that are "melted with blood" are the battlegrounds. These mountains represent the promises of God to the church, and prophecies of the Bible. I suggest failed interpretations of prophecy, and delusions, are the "slain" in Isaiah's prophecy.

The above interpretation may also apply to the fate of the hordes of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel's prophecy, in chapters 38 and 39. The armies of these invaders fight against each other, and God pleads with them with blood and pestilence. [Ezek. 38:21-22] They are rained upon, with fire, brimstone, an overflowing rain, and hailstones. [vs. 22] They fall on the mountains, and in the open field. [Ezek. 39:4-5] The smell of their corpses "stops the noses of the passengers." [vs. 11] Their corpses are buried over a period of 7 months, and their weapons are buried for 7 years. [vs. 9, 12] Their flesh is fed to the birds and beasts. [vs. 17-20]

Some dispensationalist prophecy interpreters say this describes the fate of the armies which will invade the modern state of Israel. According to them, Ezekiel's prophecy describes a military invasion by armies from Russia, Iran, and several other modern nations.

However, if God were really trying to kill a vast horde of people, why so many attempts? Would not pestilence be enough to kill them? Why the fire, and brimstone? And hailstones? And once they were killed, why so many conflicting ways of disposing of their corpses? According to Ezekiel, their corpses are (1) buried for 7 months; (2) lie unburied on the ground, causing a great stench; (3) eaten by birds and beasts.

Ezekiel's prophecy can be understood when the symbols are correctly interpreted. I suggest the slain armies, and the corpses, are metaphors, that represent delusions. The failed interpretation of dispensationalists, that claims the Gog-Magog invasion is a modern military invasion of the Jewish state by Russia and Iran etc., is an example of a delusion, and a flawed interpretation by an invading horde, seeking to profit by selling their books. The Jewish state in Palestine today is not a "land of unwalled villages." There is a prominent wall or fence over 700 km long and up to 8 m high. The wall thwarts their silly interpretation, and exposes those authors and preachers as "false prophets."

Doug

[Cardinal]

Here is a different interpretation of the heavens being rolled together as a scroll. The essential idea in Isaiah's prophecy is that when a scroll is rolled together, the spindles meet, preventing any further rotation.

:cloud9: yes, and I can see how that too fits, because there is no real "rotation", things are on a holding pattern, until the manifestation of the sons of the God comes to fulfillment, which requires Him "opening" the scrolls and reading what is written within, ie. our new name/nature both spoken and revealed. Blessings...

[reFORMer]

Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 
Jhn 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 
Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 

Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?

Barry

Just read on a couple more verses.  The answer seems clear.  Although the mind of unbelief has popularly interpreted Scripture it doesn't dictate its meaning.
John 5:28-29 (CLT)...
28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.

[Zeek]

Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.  
Jhn 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.  
Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;  

Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?

Barry

Just read on a couple more verses.  The answer seems clear.  Although the mind of unbelief has popularly interpreted Scripture it doesn't dictate its meaning.
John 5:28-29 (CLT)...
28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.

and approximately 25-30 years later, this is written


1Jn 2:18  Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.

hour:

G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an "hour" (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.

last:
G2078
ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

[Cardinal]

Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.  
Jhn 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.  
Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;  

Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?

Barry

Just read on a couple more verses.  The answer seems clear.  Although the mind of unbelief has popularly interpreted Scripture it doesn't dictate its meaning.
John 5:28-29 (CLT)...
28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.

and approximately 25-30 years later, this is written


1Jn 2:18  Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.

hour:

G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an "hour" (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.

last:
G2078
ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

:cloud9: And all humanity has been in the last hour for the last 2000 years, the last hour before we go to the cross (can ye not pray with me one hour) and "die", so that we might be raised again.

I especially liked the "latter end" meaning, as this in Job......since Job received double (double portion), same as the firstfruits (firstborn) sons.

Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.

Blessings....

[Barry DuPont]

Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 
Jhn 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 
Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 

Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?

Barry

Just read on a couple more verses.  The answer seems clear.  Although the mind of unbelief has popularly interpreted Scripture it doesn't dictate its meaning.
John 5:28-29 (CLT)...
28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.

Hey Reformer.
How in your view do verses 28 and 29 clarify verses 24 and 25?
In what way?

What death is in view in 25? How are they "dead"?
Is verse 25 a description of verse 24 or is it a change of subject of some sort?
Barry

[sparrow]

Dear Barry... Though I may not necessarily agree with your beliefs, or point of view at this time, I just wanted to say that the way you present your views is to be commended. Just wanted to say thank you for being a good example of the way folks should converse with each other. I think you've added something positive to tentmaker just by your interactions and the way you treat others. Just wanted to tell you that.
Peace to ya,
sparrow

[Zeek]

Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.  
Jhn 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.  
Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;  

Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?

Barry

Just read on a couple more verses.  The answer seems clear.  Although the mind of unbelief has popularly interpreted Scripture it doesn't dictate its meaning.
John 5:28-29 (CLT)...
28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.

and approximately 25-30 years later, this is written


1Jn 2:18  Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.

hour:

G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an "hour" (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.

last:
G2078
ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

When then do you as a believer, receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul?   Does it have anything to do with "literal/physical death" in your opinion?? 

[Barry DuPont]

Thanks Sparrow.
Actually I believe that I could have done much better.

The problem in relationships is often to do with personal expectation. My expectations were not met so I might feel let down or frustrated or what ever the reaction might be.

This has to do with our feelings of justice and rightness.
Such a focus or fixation can be a train wreck waiting to happen.

This it the beauty of love without condition. That acctually does not mean be a door mat and have no personal boundaries but it does mean stop expecting so much from others. After all maybe I don't meet the expectation of others all the time either if you know what I mean?

So over all then I really appreciate your input and at the same time do know that a few more steps into the right direction of love would help be of additional assistance in my interactions and communications.

When all is said and done we don't have control over others and perhaps should not try either, but we do have a say so on our own house so to speak.

Just to let you know, my participation in this thread will be slowly drawing to a close as other obligations are pressing in and this is very time consuming. 

It has thus far truly been a learning experience for me and I hope others as well.

Barry

[sparrow]

Good words, Barry... :HeartThrob: I agree with what you've said, brother.

When all is said and done we don't have control over others and perhaps should not try either, but we do have a say so on our own house so to speak.

Amen.

[reFORMer]

Berry, I believe that the end of the world did come for those people standing there and people today IF you "see" it this way: :HeartThrob:

the end comes when one comes to the understanding that they are a new creation IN Christ and the old (separation from God, man dealing with God through another Priest on earth)  is passed away, and understands that ALL NOW deals with God Through Revelation (Mat.16:17) one on one. Only one middle Man, God's Anointed. All are IN Christ NOW, just wake up and see and you are Alive, (some slang-born-again, regenerated, etc.)  But remember this, every person is awaken at God's time table, not at an alter call, confession, etc.

Lee

Yes Lee,
I understand your view. At least fundamentally I think.
That is also why you are free between your ears. :)

It seems that you can put the doctrines of transition behind you and simply accepted your present position. And it is in this acceptance that you and I grow and mature.

The end was not an end to humanity, but a new beginning.
Types and figures have passed away.



Barry

As long as the world of "nature" exists types and figures have not passed away.  Fulfillment does not equate with elimination. Scripture teaches God's Law Word is written in various modes of revelation.  One is in nature.  (Ps 19:1; Rm 1:19-21)  An example concerning trees I excerpted from another writing to some friends follows...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

God sows gold, silver and precious stones.  These are gifts of His Spirit, His word and His nature in His imparted presence.  What God gives may be improved, as gold is purified in fire and jewels are cut, polished and set.

What man sows is wood, hay and stubble.  Those long generational things involving the span of a man's life or more are the trees.  The first Psalm has us as the "trees of righteousness, the transplanting of the LORD" upon which the fire of God's manifesting presence falls.  The wicked are the thorn bushes.

In the days of Eden it was trees of Life and of the knowledge of good and evil.  In Noah's day it was "Gopher" wood (for the ark.)  We come to Abraham and it was the Terebinth or Oaks of Mamre that represented God's people.  [But, because you saw an oak, it should alternatively be considered that the oaks of Bashan are the of the opposers of Israel.  The bulls of Bashan surrounded Jesus on the cross. [Ps 22])  When Israel came out of Egypt and wandered in the wilderness it was the Acacia (for the Tabernacle.)  When they first entered the land of promise it was the Palm.  The married seeress that judged all Israel, Deborah, sat under a Palm tree.  In the days of David it was the Cedar (of Lebannon.)  The temple period was represented still by the Cedar, as well as the Olive, and Cypress.  The next two are problematic.  In the days of Elijah it was possibly Tamarind, and, at the point of (not Israel's, but) Judah's deportation to Babylon, Jeremiah 24 compares those God will destroy and those He will save by two baskets of figs, one good and one bad.  In the restoration, the post-exilic period of outward humility but inward glory it was the Myrtle.  The New Covenant is the Mustard and Olive.  Conclusions?

The acacia, whose wood blackens with age, was used for the ark of the covenant, all lined and covered with gold.  This has long been seen as the humanity Of Christ, filled and covered with God.  The large ancient oak is our present generation, those "gentiles" round about who are of the "old man" of Col 3:9 that we have stripped off with it's practices, and there are many of them.  "...seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." (Col 3:9-11)  There is a new generation by God Who is going to do a new thing.  What is to be set before us are those things which are above, not the ancient (old) humanity.  As a prerequisite to appearing with Him in the Glory we are to be disposed to those things not of the earth but the new, up over all, where Christ sits in the right of God.  (cp., Col 3:1-4)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks for this reFORMer........ :thumbsup:

[Doug]

Types and figures have passed away.



Barry

As long as the world of "nature" exists types and figures have not passed away. 

Indeed.

The pascal Lamb of the Jews remains a type of Jesus.

Abraham's servant seeking a bride for Isaac is a type of the Holy Spirit.

The brazen serpent in the wilderness is a type of Jesus crucified.

Egypt and Sodom remain types of the sin and bondage of the world, from which God's people have escaped.

Jerusalem continues to be a type of the bride of Christ, the church.

Ancient Babylon remains a type of worldly civilization.

The sun continues to be a type of the gospel.

A woman in heaven, clothed with the sun, is a type of the church.

The Jerusalem temple remains a type of the church.

The sabbath day is a type of eternal "rest" of a Christian.

Etc., etc.

Doug

[sparrow]

Perhaps now though... all that is really needed is the gospel... God loves each of us.
Isn't that really the main thing mankind needs to know... needs to understand?
Why spend so much time with the other "stuff"?

I wonder about this.
Are people starving...
and should we truly just be handing out loaves of bread?

The only REAL actual problem in this world is that people are walking in darkness not understanding how much their Creator loves them.

Well, like I said... these are things I think about and wonder about and ponder.

Sometimes I get sucked into endless conversations and I step outside of it and look at it and think..."what was the purpose of that anyway?"

just thinking out loud.
This isn't directed to anyone.
Just thoughts that run through my mind.

peace..

[Taffy]

I'm not Doug, but I'll put in my   on this as well as the question in a later post about sin in His body.

for mine -  Such a good  Word to go left almost unnoticed.

:icon_flower: