Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
3. What if God really is like this?
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
To be honest,
I could not love a god like the one you have mentioned. The selfish part of me says that that I will try to love him out of fear, but is that love? No, I'll be doomed.
I'd rather not exist entirely, then to pretend to love such a god.
Your questions bring on many more questions..
Why should we love God?
Because he created us? Because his only son died for us? Because he is so big and powerful? Because he love us, not just some of us? all of us?
OR
Should we love God because we fear his eternal hell?
Which one would God prefer? A pure joyous love, that praises his name, marvels at his wonders, hopes and trusts him with the future of the world?
OR
A love that praises him from saving them from eternal hell? A love that see's victory in revenge, that skims over the hard questions and only cares about ones own salvation and that of fellow christians..?
Moon, remember that man's justice is to exact "to the last penny," or to take revenge/retribution. God's justice was to send His Own Son to die in our place, to pay the penalty for our sins, or as John the Baptist said it, to take away the sins of the world. In view of that, do you still have any doubt?
Read through God's law in the books of Moses, especially the law of the Jubilee. At a set time, trumpets would sound throughout the land, all debts were canceled, and every slave and indentured servant went free to go home to their inheritance, without debt or further obligation. That law for an ancient society is the model for a spiritual reality in which we will be resurrected free of all sin, debt, or obligations, to be co-heirs with Christ. There is just no place for Hell in that scheme!
Moon,
You ask good questions.
First, let me address your last question. Lead people astray? Meaning belief in hell is essential for salvation? No, the way I see it, is I'm to err, I'll err on the side of Gods agape love. If I'm to err I believe God is powerful enough to get exactly what He wants, which is for all men to be saved. How much worse would it be to err on God burning people in hellfire? You consider Hitler evil, yet the suffering he created had end. But, much of the church would have me believe God will do much worse for all of eternity. Let me ask you a question? What if you are wrong and you have led people astray? If you err do you err on God creating then torturing? How does that look to you? How do you resolve that with Gods nature which is defined in the Bible as love? Sorry, I haven't bought that...not since I was old enough to think about God.
Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
God so loved the world...we cannot love the world more than God does. Has God commanded eternal concious torment? If so, what verse specifically says that? Is there anyone that believes the "Good news" is that Satan gets 95% of humanity because God cannot or will not save as He specifically sent Jesus to do. "It is the will of God that ALL men be saved" Is Jesus Saviour of all or 5%?
No love for a God of no love. God is NOT love according to ET people but a sadistic, psychotic. ...and we're not talking millions but multiple Billions that God supposedly loses to Satan. It boils down to either God is a sadistic psychotic, way less powerful than Satan, or he is the God of Love that wills all men to be ultimately reconciled to him.
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
If this is indeed God's plan as you say, Why did he not mention it to any old testament peoples, why is he losing to Satan, why wasn't the NT clear that God's plan is not really "Good News" but frightful news?
God revealing to me there is an eternal hell? That would be impossible. I've known God for over 40 years and the concept of eternally torturing even a part of his creation is, as he says, something he never even thought of. The question, to me, is like, What if God reveals to you that you've never really been alive? It would be a moot point then wouldn't it?
3. What if God really is like this?
A Sadistic Psychotic, weak, loser? Sorry, any one of those 4 definitions would defy the very definition of God. In other words, if God is like that then it's not God. Could turn it around also, what if Satan as an angel of light has deceived ET'er into believing God is just waiting and watching, looking forward to their next screw up so He can revoke salvation and torture forever after death?
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
Since we are saved by the grace of God, there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation(free gift). It follows that since there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation, there is nothing I can do to lose it. Besides, it would still be unknowingly even if there was such a thing as what TV, the movies, and most evangelists call "Hell"
Your #4 question follows from #3 where in Satan has deceived into believing God is out to "get them" (and not for salvation but torture) :Peace2:
The OP "what ifs?" just don't work on someone who has studied what the Bible says about this. I have a clarity of understanding and am secure in the knowledge of the truth because I read and searched and read some more of what is written in Holy Scripture. I also read what people on both side of the argument say. The ceaseless torture for ever people just don't have a standing in the Word. I've met Jesus and He is just as the Word calls Him: "The Savior of All."
How can there be a debate with anyone who has not taken the time to find out what the word "hell" means? By definition the word "hell" means the place of the unseen, pit, grave.
There is no "eternal torment" in the meaning or definition of the word "hell," unless one embraces most denominational "religious" teachings, including for most christianity, and satan is not an angel(messenger) of light, the adversary "transforms" into, and that should trouble a lot of people who are teaching "things" that are not in the Bible.
2Co 11:14 and no wonder--for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;
IMO, Moon7171 isn't really interested in answers. An ET'er that is afraid to disbelieve in something that doesn't exist. :sigh:
Quote from: ded2daworld on April 02, 2013, 06:15:08 PM
IMO, Moon7171 isn't really interested in answers. An ET'er that is afraid to disbelieve in something that doesn't exist. :sigh:
You are probably right. But, maybe some of the believers who also believe in ET, who come here...even to pick a fight...are searching in their own way. We all had to start somewhere.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 02, 2013, 05:01:28 PM
How can there be a debate with anyone who has not taken the time to find out what the word "hell" means? By definition the word "hell" means the place of the unseen, pit, grave.
There is no "eternal torment" in the meaning or definition of the word "hell," unless one embraces most denominational "religious" teachings, including for most christianity, and satan is not an angel(messenger) of light, the adversary "transforms" into, and that should trouble a lot of people who are teaching "things" that are not in the Bible.
2Co 11:14 and no wonder--for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;
Yes, if the meaning of the words "hell, forever, and eternal" were understood it would clear up a lot of misunderstandings about salvation.
CHB
Good answers everyone. Time tells on moon, if they don't come back, then.....
Don't you all think it's a bit rude discussing Moon, rather than the thread subject, on his own thread?
It's quite a warm welcome he's receiving that's for sure Laz. He's only posted once and since he hasn't responded we can assume he's an ETer? :sigh: even if he was those are still fair questions to ask and haven't been asked in an inflammatory way. :doh:
Quote from: moon7171 on April 02, 2013, 02:26:34 AM
Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
3. What if God really is like this?
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
:Chinscratch: Perhaps the gospel after 2000 years of being passed down through human hands, and being made up of humans, has lost some of the glory of its message? And, has picked up some baggage along the way? And now reflects a human image of God? A
curse thy enemy image?
God can only be Perfect. And no one can stay His Hand.. cannot prevent His Will "God desires that all be saved.."
..also UR doesn't mean 'quit preaching the gospel' - it may mean a larger harvest, for love draws.. and "mercy hath kissed judgment" (trumped)
Why have a 2nd resurrection? by the end of everyone having experienced being resurrected, and by the end of judgement day (which has to be a veRy loong day) is when is stated "those not in the book of life" (those not believing) "will go to the LOF".
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 02, 2013, 07:58:38 PM
Don't you all think it's a bit rude discussing Moon, rather than the thread subject, on his own thread?
Never even crossed my mind as rude. I suppose we each have our own ideas of what rude entails.
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 02, 2013, 09:05:14 PM
It's quite a warm welcome he's receiving that's for sure Laz. He's only posted once and since he hasn't responded we can assume he's an ETer? :sigh: even if he was those are still fair questions to ask and haven't been asked in an inflammatory way. :doh:
I probably shouldnt rescue but I have seen alot of splitting lately here. It's actually starting to get in the way of discussion. When someone fails to introduce themselves, and starts right in with typical ET party lines I can see why some might get a bit defensive. I think we should engage anyone here with respect, especially those who support ET. But, if some grow weary of the attacks I do understand.
With that said, I think most have given honest well thought out responses to the questions in the OP without attacking the a new member. Grace goes a long way even with our own.
I apologize to all if I spoke wrongly, but the comments struck me as being like a three-way conversation where 2 and 3 were discussing 1 in the third person.
Hello again! Sorry people, I usually jump on the comp once a day :)
Nice answers folks, and I apologize, I should have introduced myself first.
I don't mean to stamp on your ideas, for they are my own as well, it's just that these questions have locked me up in fear, and who else is there to talk about such things? The only Christians in my life are very dogmatic, and I can't discuss such matters with them. I have been learning about the origins of hell, but I tell you what when you have been brought up thinking and believing something is a fact, and that the very idea of thinking maybe it is not so means you are "falling away" it is a very scary thing!
I have found my faith to be stretching, it feels like I'm stepping out into something so unknown, with only God to guide me.
Going to church requires devotion, but little faith. Following traditional Christians and their ways is like swimming downstream, I want to swim upstream, with Gods help.
Bless you and grace to you. May the God of all that is send His Spirit to lead you and guide you into all truth.
www.hellisamyth.com
Quote from: ded2daworld on April 02, 2013, 08:00:54 AM
Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
God so loved the world...we cannot love the world more than God does. Has God commanded eternal concious torment? If so, what verse specifically says that? Is there anyone that believes the "Good news" is that Satan gets 95% of humanity because God cannot or will not save as He specifically sent Jesus to do. "It is the will of God that ALL men be saved" Is Jesus Saviour of all or 5%?
No love for a God of no love. God is NOT love according to ET people but a sadistic, psychotic. ...and we're not talking millions but multiple Billions that God supposedly loses to Satan. It boils down to either God is a sadistic psychotic, way less powerful than Satan, or he is the God of Love that wills all men to be ultimately reconciled to him.
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
If this is indeed God's plan as you say, Why did he not mention it to any old testament peoples, why is he losing to Satan, why wasn't the NT clear that God's plan is not really "Good News" but frightful news?
God revealing to me there is an eternal hell? That would be impossible. I've known God for over 40 years and the concept of eternally torturing even a part of his creation is, as he says, something he never even thought of. The question, to me, is like, What if God reveals to you that you've never really been alive? It would be a moot point then wouldn't it?
3. What if God really is like this?
A Sadistic Psychotic, weak, loser? Sorry, any one of those 4 definitions would defy the very definition of God. In other words, if God is like that then it's not God. Could turn it around also, what if Satan as an angel of light has deceived ET'er into believing God is just waiting and watching, looking forward to their next screw up so He can revoke salvation and torture forever after death?
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
Since we are saved by the grace of God, there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation(free gift). It follows that since there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation, there is nothing I can do to lose it. Besides, it would still be unknowingly even if there was such a thing as what TV, the movies, and most evangelists call "Hell"
Your #4 question follows from #3 where in Satan has deceived into believing God is out to "get them" (and not for salvation but torture) :Peace2:
Thank you very much for your detailed response Ded2theworld.
How I can wait to unravel this mystery, words cannot even express how amazing it would be if everyone I love gets eventually saved! It is silly of me to think God would judge me with eternal hell because I'm confused, but thats how fear works I guess. You live your life not asking the hard questions, because you 1. may be afraid of the answer or 2. cannot trust that God is a good God who will make everything right.
The reason I asked the question about loving God if there is a hell is because like the poster missz I too feel like now once my mind is clearer, I cannot go back, I can only go forward with this, no matter how confused I will get I am drawn to this gospel.
I don't think I can love a God that knew beforehand how many people were going to burn alive forever, and left it to us mere humans to save ourselves.
Quote from: ded2daworld on April 02, 2013, 06:15:08 PM
IMO, Moon7171 isn't really interested in answers. An ET'er that is afraid to disbelieve in something that doesn't exist. :sigh:
Oh Shoot! I Apologize, I was not looking for a debate, just asking some questions! :sigh:
It's me that should apologise. We have had bad experiences in the past with people posting once and they had no intention of coming back, they just wanted to assert the ET point of view. I do aplogise. :Peace2:
Should my post have been rude, I will apologize, still should one make ones study of the Bible to be foremost, and one should study the Bible, rather than what religion teaches as truth and one has come this far in questions, this far in the journey, treasures of truth should be welcome. Still, I suppose when I tell anyone there is no eternal torment,(which one has been told and believes is "hell") it may be rude, but I personally and in my opinion will have spoke a truth and my small voice, stifled by the roar of untruth, is what I have. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Hi Moon,
The 'what if' game has no good solution. WHAT IF the God of the Christian Bible is not the real God but the god of the Koran is and all us Christians are doomed? Or what if all those Hindu gods are the real ones? Or Zeus and Athena and Pan, et al?
Is the creator of the universe really that cruel to make us each responsible for our own fate? We can't control what happens in any given moment now, yet we are still supposed to transcend all that's around us and find the spiritual truth? We've barely scratched the surface of physical things.
The day I started believing in the reconciliation of all, it was like scales fell from my eyes and the joy I felt was indescribable. I cried tears of great joy and thankfulness, mostly for releasing me from the torment of uncertainty and fear for my own soul as well as those of the whole world.. From that moment, I have never doubted that God loves us that much. I have learned a lot more since then and I am still conflicted over some things. But they don't matter. All will be straightened out in due time.
Welcome to the freedom one encounters with this truth, Moon. It is frustrating when our loved ones and close friends can't see this beautiful 'heresy' the same way, but whereas they might worry and fret over our 'salvation' we know that God will never ever forsake them or the one we consider the most evil, vile sinner on earth, for they are His workmanship and He has a desire to the work of His hands.
How loud will ring the praises of our awesome and loving God on that day when all confess Him and kneel to him in sheer love, gratitude and devotion. Amen, Maranatha.
the confusion of Babylon religious kingdom..foments confusion....Moon....if you go to Him in
praayer..and ask for confirmation..not doubting He will answer you,He will.
He has done this for many. Jude 22 Be merciful to those who doubt;snatch others from the fire[hell-
fire torment doctrine] and save them. To others show mercy..mixed with fear-hating even the clothing
stained by corrupted flesh
God Bless and keep you and make His face to shine upon you :HeartThrob:
p..s..when I finally sw His face and not His back...I thought! Finally a God I can really love!!!
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ll thy heart soul and mind.........the word of God does
not return to Him void....when we come to really know Him..we find a God after our own heart
welcome to the forum
His FACE!!! Is BEAUTIFUL!!! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
AMEN!!!
One thing I hav asked of the Lord,
That shall I also seek.
That I may dwell in the house of the Lord
All the days of my life,
To behold the beauty of the Lord
And to meditate in His temple.
His hair was white as refiners wool
And His eyes were like flames of fire
and His face was like the sun shining in its strength
and a two edged sword came out of His mouth.
Moon, I just want to mention that it is faith in the Lord Jesus, His sinless life, sacrificial death and victorious resurrection that reconciles us to God by grace, through the blood of the cross. Believing in hell, or in universal reconciliation, does not save or condemn anyone.
Being wrong about a doctrine wouldnt put anyone in hell forever- unless God caredmore about the doctrine of hell than the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith.
"If anyone confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believes in their heart that God raised Him from the dead, they shall be saved."
"By grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves- it is the gift of God, so one one can boast."
Moon, think about this, if Jesus is the savior of the world and he died for the sins of all mankind, past present and future, what is hell for?
If ET's say for unbelief, does that mean unbelief is a sin, if so, didn't Jesus die for ALL sin? Where does it say that we will burn forever if we do not believe?
Prove all things hold fast to that which is good. :2c: :HeartThrob:
CHB
Quote from: eaglesway on April 10, 2013, 06:17:05 AM
One thing I hav asked of the Lord,
That shall I also seek.
That I may dwell in the house of the Lord
All the days of my life,
To behold the beauty of the Lord
And to meditate in His temple.
His hair was white as refiners wool
And His eyes were like flames of fire
and His face was like the sun shining in its strength
and a two edged sword came out of His mouth.
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more
than following and believing what God has commanded will happen?
It is not Satan who has blinded us.
God blinded us, he made sure that every one was blind so that he could open every ones eyes.
We would know we were reconciled we could see that we were .
We for the first time in or lives have HOPE.
What if you are simply making God in your image because
you love your own humans more than you love the Lord?
God simply made man in his image and he Loved man so much that he sacrificed
his only son so that he would be reconciled to you.
What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad
fact may be that millions will burn forever?
Well if that is true you should line up those millions and tell them what you did
while you were one of them .To make sure you weren't going to hell.
Tell those millions what you did to save your self and teach them.
Then you will be able to look at the millions burning forever and say I told you so.
Then you can stand next to your Lord and say that they deserve this hell.
Then your Lord can say to you. Yeah they deserve this they were warned.
He looks at you and says YOU DID WARN THEM DIDN'T YOU?
You sheepish look away Then you see he is angry.
You who believe that I would eternally torture my children.
You are the one who deserves hell.
2. What if this is Gods plan?
If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
What if you found out?
That the worst most blasphemous thought you could have
about Jesus was that he was so much (like you).
That he lied when he called himself Love.
When you stand in heaven and ask God to show you hell and
the people being tortured there, and he says it does not exist .
Will you stop loving God?
3. What if God really is like this?
Then you could be God.
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
What if you end up in Heaven because you knowingly led people astray?
Salvation is by grace, unmerited favor. It is God's free gift and He is no respecter of persons. It is not of ourselves. So, how could He give it to you and not everybody else? You're deceived if you think you deserve it in anyway for anything. That is not grace. Maybe you have a false salvation?
Quote from: moon7171 on April 02, 2013, 02:26:34 AM
Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
If Satan were to blind anyone about anything, it would be to blind people from the Love, Compassion, and Mercy of God. So, I would ask, why has burning people for eternity been the best way Satan has blinded people to the very fact that God is unlimited in Grace ?
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
I love God and have Faith that He has a perfect plan, my sinful flesh would rejoice that I was special and got a ' gift ' that other people I felt were less acceptable. But that message of the gospel is ' all have fallen short ' . So there is no sense, other than the sinful flesh to believe anyone is more ' acceptable ' to God.
3. What if God really is like this?
If we take the multiple passage that describe the nature and laws of God, he couldn't possibly be as stingy with Grace and Love as Eternal hell theology teaches.
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
Love and Mercy leads people to God, not away, but eternal torment has damaged so many minds and have caused many more to run from God's love and grace. This is a great tragedy, and a reason to abandon such blasphemous theology.
Quote from: scarletwren on April 09, 2013, 08:15:20 PM
How loud will ring the praises of our awesome and loving God on that day when all confess Him and kneel to him in sheer love, gratitude and devotion. Amen, Maranatha.
There's many very good things I could
"quote" from this thread, but this one reaLLy stands out!! :gsmile: :gthumbsup:
I feel like "judgment day" before concluded will be
surprise! `awareness of atonement day`!! How joyful!
Quote from: Sweetdreams on April 24, 2013, 07:32:12 PM
Love and Mercy leads people to God, not away, but eternal torment has damaged so many minds and have caused many more to run from God's love and grace. This is a great tragedy, and a reason to abandon such blasphemous theology.
Oh man! :iagree: So Much!!! :gsmile:
Quote from: moon7171 on April 03, 2013, 12:14:17 AM
... no matter how confused I will get I am drawn to this gospel.
You won't be confused for long. UR makes sense! Believing the truth of UR brings into focus the
BIG picture of God's plan for the Universe. You will be amazed as things become clearer and clearer. I am still amazed at God's overall plan and grace. Our God is an awesome god!!! He rules!!! We have seen a great light!!! :dsunny:
By the way,
WELCOME to TM.
May God bless your search for truth!
NEVER STOP SEARCHING!!!!!!!
Quote from: marie glen on April 25, 2013, 12:17:05 AM
Quote from: Sweetdreams on April 24, 2013, 07:32:12 PM
Love and Mercy leads people to God, not away, but eternal torment has damaged so many minds and have caused many more to run from God's love and grace. This is a great tragedy, and a reason to abandon such blasphemous theology.
Oh man! :iagree: So Much!!! :gsmile:
:banana:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 25, 2013, 12:25:00 AM
Quote from: moon7171 on April 03, 2013, 12:14:17 AM
... no matter how confused I will get I am drawn to this gospel.
You won't be confused for long. UR makes sense! Believing the truth of UR brings into focus the BIG picture of God's plan for the Universe. You will be amazed as things become clearer and clearer. I am still amazed at God's overall plan and grace. Our God is an awesome god!!! He rules!!! We have seen a great light!!! :dsunny:
:goodpost:
jbertonbounds,
:gsmile: :gthumbsup: amen, awesome posts!
Thanks, Marie. I also posted this on FaceBook, along with a link to Tentmakers.com.
This gospel is "the gospel" :o) glad tidings of great joy for all people
Eph 1:9-11 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
2Co 5:18-19 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Quote from: moon7171 on April 02, 2013, 02:26:34 AM
Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
3. What if God really is like this?
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
Dear friend, may I say something to you and I hope that you can bear with my generalisations which cannot be avoided without much excessive detail. I speak for myself and not others who may not hold to my details.
I sincerely believe that the Christ of God became the man we call Jesus of Nazareth. He represented Truth in the most accessible form available to man for his redemption - and because of His life and death the tide has been turned forever so that all of humanity shall be saved from himself and the evil that seeks to draw him down, and instead man is raised up with Him in His own good time especially those that believe in Him and seek to follow Him (1 Tim. 4:10).
Jesus revealed truths about a God as yet unknown to man. For myself, Jesus Christ is the Way. I need no other, just Him and in Him only I trust; through Him is the source of Life, He is the perfection of Truth given in a manner that can show man Truth in the way he best understands - the Christ as a man. His teachings, His demeanour and conduct demonstrate a perfect life - the generosity and unswerving altruism He displayed could not have been withheld because pure Love cannot withhold such qualities - and He was Love Incarnate, of this I have no doubt.
It is recorded in the Bible in words that God is Love, but we underrate Divine Love. I understand that Jesus was the manifestation of the purest Divine Soul as a man - yes, a man like any man or woman or child - except He was the only human being ever born with a pure Soul. Like man - and yet unlike man. The majesty of Divinity and yet the humbleness of the Babe born amongst animals, humility and Holiness manifesting in one man - unique and unparalleled - the Christ of God made man. And man can never say that God does not know what it is like to be a human being.
Friend, may I put it to you that mankind, in the past - and today - anthropomorphises God. Man, in his ignorance assumes his God is like himself and the lesser self he displays. Man attributes to his God the anger, hatred and desire for revenge he himself feels - the audacity and conceitedness of it all: that the Creator of all life should act like a raving aggressive possessed man whose temper is so utterly vile that billions of sentient beings must be tortured in the most despicable way forever and forever! What foolishness, what hideousness that the mind of man should allow the evil shadows to portray such a perverted deviation of Divine Love!
And why subject feeling beings with loving hearts to an eternal punishment? Because they held a different belief in the mind about the Saviour to the belief held in the mind of another? Because a word translated into another language from a past culture should mean one thing to one and another thing to another? Both see some of the beauty in the Saviour, both hold Him to be at least God's Messenger if not His Incarnation.
Think again friend. Is it not the fears in oneself that causes man to create such a monstrous dogma and seek to perpetuate it in one form or another? Think again friend - the difference in a belief of the mind can send one man to an everlasting hell without end and another man to an eternal Paradise? No, it is not credible once Divine Love is brought into the arena, not credible in the slightest - when the God who is Love is remembered then such a notion of the enending infliction of sadistic pain on innocent souls reveals the underlying evil that has buried its way into the depths of the dogma so that it has taken the place of truth in the minds of many generations.
A good mother would not even contemplate such a thing for her children, the thought could not even arise in her mind - and remember that the Saviour claimed to be like a Mother surrounding her little ones with her wings.
Now do not mistake me friend, God is Love, as we have heard, and therefore His laws are made out of Love. And those who break those laws shall build up a debt of sickness in their souls which must be accounted for.
Please do not be deceived as to this, there is no circumvention of the laws of retribution when Divine Law is broken, and one who has never known the touch of remorse should be pitied indeed, for his debt will be great: 'he who is filthy let him be filthy still' when his account is rendered, and then the painful pruning begins as a natural consequence of redemptive laws 'until that debt be paid' - and paid in full - and no words can portray what awaits those who have actively taken pleasure in wreaking pain upon others - 'outer darkness' does not even begin to describe their reckoning. But this is not God's will - if the human will was used as it was meant to be used it would never have transgressed the laws of Love and Life. Only those who do not break such laws - by following the Master - do not have such a debt.
The word unconditional is bandied about in regard to God's Love. Man in his own conceit cannot attribute to the Supreme Being a Divine Love which is pure and which therefore could never be withheld - it is not easy for man to understand that Love can only give Love and give Love again - although, in degree, it is easier to fathom since Christ Jesus has been amongst us, but was nigh impossible before His coming.
And what does God really want? It is for His child to turn to Him and love Him with all the heart, all the soul, all the mind, and all the strength - a Commandment of which, along with another, Christ said there was no greater and upon which hang all the Law - mark you that friend. That is what the God who is Love desires and anyone who truly loves others can enter into this understanding.
Love or Christ - is the Great Instructor - Christ without and Christ within. And from there, my friend, may I humbly recommend that you seek instruction for answers to your questions.
Christ, through whom was wrought all creation, became man and demonstrated in visible form the invisible Divinity (Col. 1:15). Christ came to be judged - to be judged by me, by you, by everyone - so that the blind might see. Judged: Is my God worth following? Is He worthy of being my God?
Ah, yes, it is true but hardly comprehendible by man - the exquisite humility shown by Divinity - man is so unused to such an unthinkable possibility; man with his desire to be the best, to outdo others, to display his success in worldly matters, to wear his power and position in outward display - man cannot comprehend his God submitting Himself before His own creation for judgment! Indeed, how painful for those who love Him to consider - my friend, when His love burns in you, you will know the truth.
God waits and waits and waits through 'all the generations of the aeons of the Aeon' (τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων Eph.3:21), and there will be a time when each and everyone shall say: "Yes, I adore you my God, I lay prostrate at your Feet, I submit my whole being to your service forever and forever, I beg you to send me your will, send me the courage and wisdom and gifts to carry out that will, let me serve Thee now and forever my God, my Everything, my All!".
And that time, my friend, is the time that every knee shall bend in true adoration and recognition of the Lord of man and angels and all life in every state of being in existence, when evil shall have been vanquished from the hearts, minds and souls of His children. And that time is written clearly in the Bible.
:iagree:
With a post like that why would we need another.
Quote from: lastpost on April 27, 2013, 03:10:12 AM
Quote from: moon7171 on April 02, 2013, 02:26:34 AM
Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
3. What if God really is like this?
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
Dear friend, may I say something to you and I hope that you can bear with my generalisations which cannot be avoided without much excessive detail. I speak for myself and not others who may not hold to my details.
I sincerely believe that the Christ of God became the man we call Jesus of Nazareth. He represented Truth in the most accessible form available to man for his redemption - and because of His life and death the tide has been turned forever so that all of humanity shall be saved from himself and the evil that seeks to draw him down, and instead man is raised up with Him in His own good time especially those that believe in Him and seek to follow Him (1 Tim. 4:10).
Jesus revealed truths about a God as yet unknown to man. For myself, Jesus Christ is the Way. I need no other, just Him and in Him only I trust; through Him is the source of Life, He is the perfection of Truth given in a manner that can show man Truth in the way he best understands - the Christ as a man. His teachings, His demeanour and conduct demonstrate a perfect life - the generosity and unswerving altruism He displayed could not have been withheld because pure Love cannot withhold such qualities - and He was Love Incarnate, of this I have no doubt.
It is recorded in the Bible in words that God is Love, but we underrate Divine Love. I understand that Jesus was the manifestation of the purest Divine Soul as a man - yes, a man like any man or woman or child - except He was the only human being ever born with a pure Soul. Like man - and yet unlike man. The majesty of Divinity and yet the humbleness of the Babe born amongst animals, humility and Holiness manifesting in one man - unique and unparalleled - the Christ of God made man. And man can never say that God does not know what it is like to be a human being.
Friend, may I put it to you that mankind, in the past - and today - anthropomorphises God. Man, in his ignorance assumes his God is like himself and the lesser self he displays. Man attributes to his God the anger, hatred and desire for revenge he himself feels - the audacity and conceitedness of it all: that the Creator of all life should act like a raving aggressive possessed man whose temper is so utterly vile that billions of sentient beings must be tortured in the most despicable way forever and forever! What foolishness, what hideousness that the mind of man should allow the evil shadows to portray such a perverted deviation of Divine Love!
And why subject feeling beings with loving hearts to an eternal punishment? Because they held a different belief in the mind about the Saviour to the belief held in the mind of another? Because a word translated into another language from a past culture should mean one thing to one and another thing to another? Both see some of the beauty in the Saviour, both hold Him to be at least God's Messenger if not His Incarnation.
Think again friend. Is it not the fears in oneself that causes man to create such a monstrous dogma and seek to perpetuate it in one form or another? Think again friend - the difference in a belief of the mind can send one man to an everlasting hell without end and another man to an eternal Paradise? No, it is not credible once Divine Love is brought into the arena, not credible in the slightest - when the God who is Love is remembered then such a notion of the enending infliction of sadistic pain on innocent souls reveals the underlying evil that has buried its way into the depths of the dogma so that it has taken the place of truth in the minds of many generations.
A good mother would not even contemplate such a thing for her children, the thought could not even arise in her mind - and remember that the Saviour claimed to be like a Mother surrounding her little ones with her wings.
Now do not mistake me friend, God is Love, as we have heard, and therefore His laws are made out of Love. And those who break those laws shall build up a debt of sickness in their souls which must be accounted for.
Please do not be deceived as to this, there is no circumvention of the laws of retribution when Divine Law is broken, and one who has never known the touch of remorse should be pitied indeed, for his debt will be great: 'he who is filthy let him be filthy still' when his account is rendered, and then the painful pruning begins as a natural consequence of redemptive laws 'until that debt be paid' - and paid in full - and no words can portray what awaits those who have actively taken pleasure in wreaking pain upon others - 'outer darkness' does not even begin to describe their reckoning. But this is not God's will - if the human will was used as it was meant to be used it would never have transgressed the laws of Love and Life. Only those who do not break such laws - by following the Master - do not have such a debt.
The word unconditional is bandied about in regard to God's Love. Man in his own conceit cannot attribute to the Supreme Being a Divine Love which is pure and which therefore could never be withheld - it is not easy for man to understand that Love can only give Love and give Love again - although, in degree, it is easier to fathom since Christ Jesus has been amongst us, but was nigh impossible before His coming.
And what does God really want? It is for His child to turn to Him and love Him with all the heart, all the soul, all the mind, and all the strength - a Commandment of which, along with another, Christ said there was no greater and upon which hang all the Law - mark you that friend. That is what the God who is Love desires and anyone who truly loves others can enter into this understanding.
Love or Christ - is the Great Instructor - Christ without and Christ within. And from there, my friend, may I humbly recommend that you seek instruction for answers to your questions.
Christ, through whom was wrought all creation, became man and demonstrated in visible form the invisible Divinity (Col. 1:15). Christ came to be judged - to be judged by me, by you, by everyone - so that the blind might see. Judged: Is my God worth following? Is He worthy of being my God?
Ah, yes, it is true but hardly comprehendible by man - the exquisite humility shown by Divinity - man is so unused to such an unthinkable possibility; man with his desire to be the best, to outdo others, to display his success in worldly matters, to wear his power and position in outward display - man cannot comprehend his God submitting Himself before His own creation for judgment! Indeed, how painful for those who love Him to consider - my friend, when His love burns in you, you will know the truth.
God waits and waits and waits through 'all the generations of the aeons of the Aeon' (τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων Eph.3:21), and there will be a time when each and everyone shall say: "Yes, I adore you my God, I lay prostrate at your Feet, I submit my whole being to your service forever and forever, I beg you to send me your will, send me the courage and wisdom and gifts to carry out that will, let me serve Thee now and forever my God, my Everything, my All!".
And that time, my friend, is the time that every knee shall bend in true adoration and recognition of the Lord of man and angels and all life in every state of being in existence, when evil shall have been vanquished from the hearts, minds and souls of His children. And that time is written clearly in the Bible.
What an amazing post! :dsunny: :URWelcome: :HeartThrob:
Hi Moon
It's OK to have questions and air them so that you can know the truth as the Spirit speaks to you about these things. The Lord has redeemed us all because He made us all, good and bad.
We are all unique, have different DNA and the scriptures bear out that He loves all of His creation. The love I have for God actually comes from Him, otherwise my human love would not measure up. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father, He has a plan to purify us by fire but that fire is NOT Hell. It is a fire than cleanses all so that all of mankind :Peace2: will truly be, a new creation.
Bless you
Jock.
moon7171: 4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray? No one can end up in hell because there is no such place.
Moon
The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. He doesn't represent the Father as a monster, only men do that
Moon,
I noticed you have not posted lately.
I hope you're still with us.
If so, stay with us, hang in there, and don't give up.
KEEP SEARCHING!
That is what the Father wants you to do!
The seekers are the ones to whom the Father reveals his secrets!
JBerton
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 01, 2013, 03:14:06 PM
moon7171: 4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray? No one can end up in hell because there is no such place.
Amen to that!
www.hellisamyth.com (http://www.hellisamyth.com)
Quote from: marie glen on April 25, 2013, 12:08:53 AM
Quote from: scarletwren on April 09, 2013, 08:15:20 PM
How loud will ring the praises of our awesome and loving God on that day when all confess Him and kneel to him in sheer love, gratitude and devotion. Amen, Maranatha.
There's many very good things I could "quote" from this thread, but this one reaLLy stands out!! :gsmile: :gthumbsup:
I feel like "judgment day" before concluded will be surprise! `awareness of atonement day`!! How joyful!
That is a breath taking thought.
MT 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal(olam) punishment, but the righteous to eternal(olam) life."
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Mt 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Breathtaking perhaps, but I personally think it will be a long day for some, a short day for others. :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on May 15, 2013, 01:47:48 AM
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
If God says he will repay us for our deeds, whether good or evil, why do the ET's think he will torture "sinners" forever. Just one more argument against ET. If God is a just God, and the scripture tells us he is, then his repayment for evil will be just. Eternal torment would not be repayment - just torture. Why do they think it would take eternity in literal fire to pay for a mere lifetime of sins? They don't really believe God is a just God! They don't really believe hell would be so bad.
Also, this scripture says the Lord will judge
HIS people. If he were to toss them into some hell forever, then they would not really be his people. He would have thrown them away like garbage, out of sight/out of mind, and they would no longer belong to him.
Just saying. :winkgrin:
I can definitely understand the questions that the original poster has raised. I have run into problems with viewing UR as another "theological club," along with "Calvinism, Arminianism, etc." Obviously, any doctrinal sect can be wrong because sects are formed by humans and humans are fallible. Since the time that I initially came to understand the salvation of all, there have been multiple times in which I ran into serious doubt about it.
But, every time I encounter this doubt, I resolve it by setting aside all of the theological arguments that I have heard (from both UR and ET) and meditating on the UR Scriptures of the Bible. The thing with these Scriptures is that they convey the same ideas in all of the literal Bible translations. Regardless of what literal translation I'm looking at, when I focus my attention on these passages, what I see is all humanity united with God. The passages speaking of future punishment, on the other hand, vary depending on what translation you've got. Thus, I do not see eternal damnation in the Scriptures. What I "see" in the Bible, across all translations, is all humanity ultimately restored to God. I strive to constantly fight the notion that I am choosing to believe in UR instead of something else. I have to fight the inclination to "classify myself" as a UR believer as opposed to another type of believer. I have not necessarily taken a step in faith and decided to place my trust in the doctrine. It's just that when I read the Bible, UR is what I see, and I trust that the Bible is true.
It may be that one day, I will pick up my Bible, turn to the UR passages, and fail to see universal salvation. I am willing to let this happen if it should. But so far, each time I return to these passages, I end up seeing UR once again.
Samuel
Quote from: Graph1159 on May 16, 2013, 07:56:00 AM
I can definitely understand the questions that the original poster has raised. I have run into problems with viewing UR as another "theological club," along with "Calvinism, Arminianism, etc." Obviously, any doctrinal sect can be wrong because sects are formed by humans and humans are fallible. Since the time that I initially came to understand the salvation of all, there have been multiple times in which I ran into serious doubt about it.
But, every time I encounter this doubt, I resolve it by setting aside all of the theological arguments that I have heard (from both UR and ET) and meditating on the UR Scriptures of the Bible. The thing with these Scriptures is that they convey the same ideas in all of the literal Bible translations. Regardless of what literal translation I'm looking at, when I focus my attention on these passages, what I see is all humanity united with God. The passages speaking of future punishment, on the other hand, vary depending on what translation you've got. Thus, I do not see eternal damnation in the Scriptures. What I "see" in the Bible, across all translations, is all humanity ultimately restored to God. I strive to constantly fight the notion that I am choosing to believe in UR instead of something else. I have to fight the inclination to "classify myself" as a UR believer as opposed to another type of believer. I have not necessarily taken a step in faith and decided to place my trust in the doctrine. It's just that when I read the Bible, UR is what I see, and I trust that the Bible is true.
It may be that one day, I will pick up my Bible, turn to the UR passages, and fail to see universal salvation. I am willing to let this happen if it should. But so far, each time I return to these passages, I end up seeing UR once again.
Samuel
Like :)
Quote from: Graph1159 on May 16, 2013, 07:56:00 AM
I can definitely understand the questions that the original poster has raised. I have run into problems with viewing UR as another "theological club," along with "Calvinism, Arminianism, etc." Obviously, any doctrinal sect can be wrong because sects are formed by humans and humans are fallible. Since the time that I initially came to understand the salvation of all, there have been multiple times in which I ran into serious doubt about it.
But, every time I encounter this doubt, I resolve it by setting aside all of the theological arguments that I have heard (from both UR and ET) and meditating on the UR Scriptures of the Bible. The thing with these Scriptures is that they convey the same ideas in all of the literal Bible translations. Regardless of what literal translation I'm looking at, when I focus my attention on these passages, what I see is all humanity united with God. The passages speaking of future punishment, on the other hand, vary depending on what translation you've got. Thus, I do not see eternal damnation in the Scriptures. What I "see" in the Bible, across all translations, is all humanity ultimately restored to God. I strive to constantly fight the notion that I am choosing to believe in UR instead of something else. I have to fight the inclination to "classify myself" as a UR believer as opposed to another type of believer. I have not necessarily taken a step in faith and decided to place my trust in the doctrine. It's just that when I read the Bible, UR is what I see, and I trust that the Bible is true.
It may be that one day, I will pick up my Bible, turn to the UR passages, and fail to see universal salvation. I am willing to let this happen if it should. But so far, each time I return to these passages, I end up seeing UR once again.
Samuel
The more I study UR, the more I "see" it. We see it because God is revealing it to us. He has removed the vail from our eyes and shown us this truth. He has chosen us to reveal it to us for a reason. That is to share it with others. Know that it
will cost you, but that it
is worth it! I have already paid a price for the stand I take for UR. I have lost my church home (Baptist - ET), some friends, and my good reputation with a number of people, but as the scripture says, "everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life." Mat 19:29 [ESV] This is a totally awesome promise and it is SO worth it! Don't worry! Trust the Lord - he knows what he is doing, and he will bless you beyond your imagination! :winkgrin: :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 15, 2013, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 15, 2013, 01:47:48 AM
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
If God says he will repay us for our deeds, whether good or evil, why do the ET's think he will torture "sinners" forever. Just one more argument against ET. If God is a just God, and the scripture tells us he is, then his repayment for evil will be just. Eternal torment would not be repayment - just torture. Why do they think it would take eternity in literal fire to pay for a mere lifetime of sins? They don't really believe God is a just God! They don't really believe hell would be so bad.
Also, this scripture says the Lord will judge HIS people. If he were to toss them into some hell forever, then they would not really be his people. He would have thrown them away like garbage, out of sight/out of mind, and they would no longer belong to him.
Just saying. :winkgrin:
In fact, in God's Law, given to Moses, you had to pay back four times or ten times for your wrongdoing, no more than that for stealing. No punishment worse than death was prescribed. This Law is spiritual reality transcribed for a carnal world, and God follows His Own Law, for it is His Own Character.
The whole question of "kolassis" and "apolumi"- punishment/correction and lostness/destruction is a difficult one- until we consider the parable of the potter, who crushes the flawed vessel upon the wheel, before he "fires" it in the kiln for its ultimate purpose/destiny.
No correction of God is meted out for arbitrary legalistic violations of the superficial aspects of His law. It is for the reformation of the character so that freedom becomes love and love becomes life expressed in righteousness, peace and joy, abounding in goodness and harmony. The superficial aspects of His law are "shadowy images" or "tutors" that lead us to the real light- the love life of Jesus Christ, shared like bread and wine at a table of joyous fellowship.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 17, 2013, 09:23:51 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 15, 2013, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 15, 2013, 01:47:48 AM
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
If God says he will repay us for our deeds, whether good or evil, why do the ET's think he will torture "sinners" forever. Just one more argument against ET. If God is a just God, and the scripture tells us he is, then his repayment for evil will be just. Eternal torment would not be repayment - just torture. Why do they think it would take eternity in literal fire to pay for a mere lifetime of sins? They don't really believe God is a just God! They don't really believe hell would be so bad.
Also, this scripture says the Lord will judge HIS people. If he were to toss them into some hell forever, then they would not really be his people. He would have thrown them away like garbage, out of sight/out of mind, and they would no longer belong to him.
Just saying. :winkgrin:
In fact, in God's Law, given to Moses, you had to pay back four times or ten times for your wrongdoing, no more than that for stealing. No punishment worse than death was prescribed. This Law is spiritual reality transcribed for a carnal world, and God follows His Own Law, for it is His Own Character.
And what about the jubilee. How might that play into this whole scheme?
Quote from: eaglesway on May 19, 2013, 08:14:59 AM
The whole question of "kolassis" and "apolumi"- punishment/correction and lostness/destruction is a difficult one- until we consider the parable of the potter, who crushes the flawed vessel upon the wheel, before he "fires" it in the kiln for its ultimate purpose/destiny.
No correction of God is meted out for arbitrary legalistic violations of the superficial aspects of His law. It is for the reformation of the character so that freedom becomes love and love becomes life expressed in righteousness, peace and joy, abounding in goodness and harmony. The superficial aspects of His law are "shadowy images" or "tutors" that lead us to the real light- the love life of Jesus Christ, shared like bread and wine at a table of joyous fellowship.
Beautiful and awesome, dude! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Thanks Jb,
But I would edit myself by adding this one thing-
The whole question of "kolassis" and "apolumi"- punishment/correction and lostness/destruction is a difficult one- until we consider the parable of the potter, who crushes the flawed vessel upon the wheel, and then remakes it a pleasing vessel, before he "fires" it in the kiln for its ultimate purpose/destiny.
:o) Latah bro
More and more I am aware at how distorted the WHOLE gospel is when it is tainted with ET. It is so much more than simply NOT believing in hell. It distorts every aspect of Gods plan for his creation and humanity. It distorts the meaning of the scriptures from cover to cover. I feel more and more like writing a book. :banana:
Yesterday, I attended a church that was very new and strange to me, after having been baptist all my life. Unitarian Universalists. I new they believed in respecting all faiths and walks of life, but I had no idea just how tolerant they are to the beliefs and lifestyles of others. This seemed bad at first, because you could walk in there and announce that you were a gay Satan worshiper and they would congratulate you on your lifestyle and beliefs. However, I am no longer sure if they are any worse off than all those ET denominations who beat people down with their tainted gospel of fear. :flamebreath: :eek: I think I need to mull over this one for a while. :Chinscratch:
Unitarian Universalist churches have a wide range of beliefs because they are very autonomous. Their are some Christ centered ones, but not many.
To me the issue is- does Jesus live and walk among them in a discernible way/
This determines whether a group is a "gathering of believers" -the ecclesia.
There are many religious clubs, with a few genuine believers stuck like flies in the web- they are, imo, none better off than the others- just different flavors of lukewarm water cast off from the purposes of God.
There hav been times where God has had me stay in such a place for awhile for some purpose, perhaps to teach me something or to lead me to a person He wanted to reach- but these days He has led me to be bold in proclaimimg the vctorious gospel of my Lord and Savior Jesus the Messiah- so don nobody much truck with that to let me hang aroud. But I would go bac in if HE led me to.....but I hope He does not :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on May 20, 2013, 05:59:52 PM
Unitarian Universalist churches have a wide range of beliefs because they are very autonomous. Their are some Christ centered ones, but not many.
To me the issue is- does Jesus live and walk among them in a discernible way/
This determines whether a group is a "gathering of believers" -the ecclesia.
There are many religious clubs, with a few genuine believers stuck like flies in the web- they are, imo, none better off than the others- just different flavors of lukewarm water cast off from the purposes of God.
There hav been times where God has had me stay in such a place for awhile for some purpose, perhaps to teach me something or to lead me to a person He wanted to reach- but these days He has led me to be bold in proclaimimg the vctorious gospel of my Lord and Savior Jesus the Messiah- so don nobody much truck with that to let me hang aroud. But I would go bac in if HE led me to.....but I hope He does not :o)
I am waiting to see if he leads me back. Right now, I don't know. As for religious clubs, that describes the baptist church I just left. There was a major shift from traditional to contemporary worship style during the last 18 months or so. So I thought everything would get better, as many of the older "club members" left. Not so. Just another set of club members with a different set of preferences. At first it seemed like God was moving in that church, and maybe so. It looked like some fervent worship was going on there, and I believe tis true. I really don't know what to think about it all. But I planted seeds there. If God is there, he will nurture them and they will grow. If God is not there, then the club will die a slow painful death. I say painful, because that is what that church club brought me. Much pain. I keep telling myself that the pain will soon end, but... I should be thankful that God gave me an opportunity to suffer with the Christ. And I am thankful. Still, the pain...
I've been in many churches, both in the US and the UK and what I have noted is that there seems to be a trend towards the Pentecostal/Charismatic way of worship and doctrine. A universal church, now that would be interesting! Perhaps the fact that you are there for now, is no accident.
Just a thought
Jock
Personally, I can't handle any of them. :Chinscratch:
jbertonbounds
That church almost sounds like a bunch of Quakers!
Jock
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 20, 2013, 05:28:43 PM
More and more I am aware at how distorted the WHOLE gospel is when it is tainted with ET. It is so much more than simply NOT believing in hell. It distorts every aspect of Gods plan for his creation and humanity. It distorts the meaning of the scriptures from cover to cover. I feel more and more like writing a book. :banana:
Amen, and includes too which I'm sure you noticed, is behavior and attitude, especially attitude (sometimes even behavior) - for some, I should say..
Quote from: eaglesway on May 20, 2013, 02:09:10 AM
Thanks Jb,
But I would edit myself by adding this one thing-
The whole question of "kolassis" and "apolumi"- punishment/correction and lostness/destruction is a difficult one- until we consider the parable of the potter, who crushes the flawed vessel upon the wheel, and then remakes it a pleasing vessel, before he "fires" it in the kiln for its ultimate purpose/destiny.
:o) Latah bro
Amen.. more and more I think the whole human story is typified in the story of Israel. Sheep gone astray, suffer the outgrowth (consequences of wandering away from God,Life,Perfection, thus becoming and entering the opposite of life). Israel being the story in microcosm, then returns and,or will return. "All nations will remember, all families return".
All things, even now, are perfect.. being the lesson, the story God is teaching,showing all :)
Well to make things even more interesting this last week, WESTBORO BAPTIST :eek: OF TOPEKA, KANSAS came to town. They came to make their point that the tornado that devastated our town (Tuscaloosa, Alabama) a couple of years ago was God's judgement on us. :sigh: (I wonder if they have confirmation on that? :laugh:)
:Pray: Dear Lord Jesus, forgive them, for they know not what they do. :Pray:
I grew up in the Kansas City area, and made it my business to understand the WBC, as Topeka is near by. It all began with Fred Phelps, a Kansas lawyer, who was so irascible and unfair in the courtroom, that he was disbarred. His unforgiving hatefulness contaminates his church and family to this day. They go out and protest in hopes of a tire being slashed, a windshield broken, or one of them assaulted. Then they sue, and that is how they make a living. It's a scam, and people are waking up to the best way to deal with them: ignore, and offer them no services in your town.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 21, 2013, 05:09:41 PM
Well to make things even more interesting this last week, WESTBORO BAPTIST :eek: OF TOPEKA, KANSAS came to town. They came to make their point that the tornado that devastated our town (Tuscaloosa, Alabama) a couple of years ago was God's judgement on us. :sigh: (I wonder if they have confirmation on that? :laugh:)
:Pray: Dear Lord Jesus, forgive them, for they know not what they do. :Pray:
Remember faith comes by hearing ! we believe what we are taught
many unskilled in the Word of God struggle ,do you not remember being a Southren Baptist hearing the hell fire messages always added to the sermons
I sure do , was a child and attending those services , makes me sad for those ''trapped in that mindset !''
we are to keep praying for our brothers and sisters in Christ whom believe in Jesus but have the deception of eternal torment preached to them and teach men so , its a sad thing and glad the Lord has delivered us out of that mindset
I know people perish every day in some way or the other proving just how temporary this world and life is and has been thought out the ages
Jesus puts this all in perspective for us in Luke 13 were any worse sinners ? no we are all sinners saved by GRACE ! and we are not to abuse this grace bestowed on us right ?
there is a great work yet to be done and its relieving those still in that fear of torment by faith and those hearing what the Spirit is saying bearing fruit unto His righteousness and Glory , just how much God loves the world and gave Himself for it and also did not come to destroy mens lives but give them here and now a more abundant life ..
Call to Repent is to change your mind and mindsets
13 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had [a]mixed with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
7 And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
8 And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'
the Lord is seeking Spiritual fruit from His Vines and branches namely us .
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 21, 2013, 05:29:03 PM
I grew up in the Kansas City area, and made it my business to understand the WBC, as Topeka is near by. It all began with Fred Phelps, a Kansas lawyer, who was so irascible and unfair in the courtroom, that he was disbarred. His unforgiving hatefulness contaminates his church and family to this day. They go out and protest in hopes of a tire being slashed, a windshield broken, or one of them assaulted. Then they sue, and that is how they make a living. It's a scam, and people are waking up to the best way to deal with them: ignore, and offer them no services in your town.
Wow. That's enlightening. Had no idea it was just a scam. I thought it was a fanatic preacher misleading his congregation. That explains a lot. Either way, it is a group of people who are mislead into evil deeds and hurting others.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 21, 2013, 05:29:03 PM
I grew up in the Kansas City area, and made it my business to understand the WBC, as Topeka is near by. It all began with Fred Phelps, a Kansas lawyer, who was so irascible and unfair in the courtroom, that he was disbarred. His unforgiving hatefulness contaminates his church and family to this day. They go out and protest in hopes of a tire being slashed, a windshield broken, or one of them assaulted. Then they sue, and that is how they make a living. It's a scam, and people are waking up to the best way to deal with them: ignore, and offer them no services in your town.
Hi Laz , aka Dennis
sounds like the unporofitable servant whom beats the other servants and eats and drinks with the drunkards , sleeping though their calling and doing much more harm than good to the Gospel of Jesus Christ :sigh:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 21, 2013, 05:41:33 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 21, 2013, 05:29:03 PM
I grew up in the Kansas City area, and made it my business to understand the WBC, as Topeka is near by. It all began with Fred Phelps, a Kansas lawyer, who was so irascible and unfair in the courtroom, that he was disbarred. His unforgiving hatefulness contaminates his church and family to this day. They go out and protest in hopes of a tire being slashed, a windshield broken, or one of them assaulted. Then they sue, and that is how they make a living. It's a scam, and people are waking up to the best way to deal with them: ignore, and offer them no services in your town.
Wow. That's enlightening. Had no idea it was just a scam. I thought it was a fanatic preacher misleading his congregation. That explains a lot. Either way, it is a group of people who are mislead into evil deeds and hurting others.
That could be more for filthy lucre and greedy gain than ! thats a bad condition to be in :sigh:
I read on the internet a few months back..that a gay activist group bought a house catty0cornered from them,and are
painting it the colours of the rainbow..just to get their goaat up
I read that too... I don't know how I should feel about it... but I laughed my head of hahahahaha. :msealed:
made me smile too. but kinda reminds me of an expierence I had as a child,when I thought it good fun to poke a yellow
jackets nest on the porch.
Quote from: sheila on May 21, 2013, 08:13:06 PM
made me smile too. but kinda reminds me of an expierence I had as a child,when I thought it good fun to poke a yellow
jackets nest on the porch.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: sheila on May 21, 2013, 05:57:55 PM
I read on the internet a few months back..that a gay activist group bought a house catty0cornered from them,and are
painting it the colours of the rainbow..just to get their goaat up
Let those who practice evil continue to do evil, and those who do good continue to do good.
Let those who antagonize continue to antagonize, and those who are trying to be funny continue to try to be funny.
As for how we should react? We should each be the judge of whether we should laugh or cry or shake our heads.
Just whatever you do, however you react, only do it if you can do it with a clear conscience (assuming you are following the Spirit's leading).
Well I have a clear conscience and I am laughing.
Hold on there is something wet in my eye I think I am crying.
Wait now my head is moving back and forth.
Quote from: dajomaco on May 21, 2013, 09:48:42 PM
Well I have a clear conscience and I am laughing.
Hold on there is something wet in my eye I think I am crying.
Wait now my head is moving back and forth.
:winkgrin:
Quote from: sheila on May 21, 2013, 05:57:55 PM
I read on the internet a few months back..that a gay activist group bought a house catty0cornered from them,and are
painting it the colours of the rainbow..just to get their goaat up
IMO, both are abhorrent. There was a time God winked...
Blessings, James.
Quote from: jabcat on May 22, 2013, 12:30:43 AM
Quote from: sheila on May 21, 2013, 05:57:55 PM
I read on the internet a few months back..that a gay activist group bought a house catty0cornered from them,and are
painting it the colours of the rainbow..just to get their goaat up
IMO, both are abhorrent. There was a time God winked...
Blessings, James.
Huh?
Quote from: dajomaco on May 21, 2013, 09:48:42 PM
Well I have a clear conscience and I am laughing.
Hold on there is something wet in my eye I think I am crying.
Wait now my head is moving back and forth.
:iagree:
Thanks for asking.
In my personal opinion, neither Westboro nor the homosexual group are funny. The scripture reference is, there was a time God winked, but now He calls all men everywhere to repent.
I also think of the scripture that says to not have pleasure in unrighteousness. If anyone wants to laugh at sin/sinfulness, it's their business. I know I've often failed in that area, and will again, but I personally don't feel OK laughing (taking pleasure) in evil/evil-doers. :2c:
I get your point James! There are definitely many times when there is no humour at all about sin. On the other hand even God poked fun at the Israelites for bowing down to a piece of wood haha. :) I think sometimes He shows us how ridiculous our sin is through humour. It definitely takes the discernment of the Spirit for sure!
Thanks for the input Lo. It kind of opens up other areas of thought. I like a good joke, find many things funny, laugh a lot. Also, as jberton originally said, and you just did, everyone should follow the Spirit - in everything. However, there are also instructions/admonitions given to us, and if not done in a condemning way, I believe are meant to share with each other.
I don't know - perhaps when God poked fun at the Israelites, that was during the past times when He winked? (I think that's probably a whole big study, as to the many things that issue entails [God having in past times winked at ignorance]). Also, God has the power to instantly change any bad situation He so chooses, so He can laugh a second, snap His fingers, and it's remedied/the remedy set in motion. Was He also possibly using the "jest" at them as a way to chide them into seeing their folly, beginning the remedy? I don't know the scripture reference(s). Regardless, He had the power to change it, we don't, so my yukking it up at evildoing is likely not doing any good for the situation. :2c: I probably won't dig into it fully, but it's an interesting discussion.
I'm not a Puritan, but PERSONALLY, my conscience is offended if I laugh or tell something that IN MY OWN SPIRIT I sense is "over the line". I try to "be in tune" with that leading, but I cross that line often, and always need to learn from it. For me, it's growing in Him, having self-control, etc., of which I often fail. :2c:
God is the I AM. He is purely Himself. I am the Lord, I change not. He is teaching us to be as He is, like a river of goodness with no thought of return, like the wind, you hear the sound of it but you don't know where it is going or from where it comes.
The voice of the Lord is like the rushing of many waters. "Deep calls unto deep at the sound of your waterfalls O Lord". This is(imo) the glorious liberty of the children of God. The more we are transformed into the image of Christ, who is the image of God- the more spontaneous our love is, the more the Voice of God is heard throughus- "Come all who thirst, drink freely of the water of life".
What, John, are you getting us back on track or something?! :laughing7:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 22, 2013, 02:05:21 AM
God is the I AM. He is purely Himself. I am the Lord, I change not. He is teaching us to be as He is, like a river of goodness with no thought of return, like the wind, you hear the sound of it but you don't know where it is going or from where it comes.
The voice of the Lord is like the rushing of many waters. "Deep calls unto deep at the sound of your waterfalls O Lord". This is(imo) the glorious liberty of the children of God. The more we are transformed into the image of Christ, who is the image of God- the more spontaneous our love is, the more the Voice of God is heard throughus- "Come all who thirst, drink freely of the water of life".
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
well,I understand a personal conscience....
wisdom laughs at folly...Proverbs 1;24-33
laugh at your disaster.......it is not an expression of heartlessness,but a reaction to the absurdity of fools,who
laugh at wisdom.. I can appreciate the absurdity of both westborough and the rainbows in this instance.
Just as I can look back on my own foolishness/absurdity when I poked the yellow-jacket nest..
Blessing :HeartThrob:s
Yeah, I wasn't picking at you sheila so much as the overall issue/your post was "handy" to respond to. What I hear you saying is different than being entertained by debauchery ["yeah, they got them, hahaha"].
Again, it's a good study probably. I personally see a difference between laughing at the ridiculousness of something, being amazed by it, mocking its absurdity - vs. enjoying/deriving pleasure from the sinfulness involved. While both groups are proudly proclaiming their own brand of sin, there's probably very little either group could do that I personally should find entertaining - such as one group antagonizing the other with their own wickedness. :2c:
So on one hand I can see laughing at the ridiculousness of a situation or activity, but if I'm actually taking pleasure in the activities of either the haters or the sodomites, TO ME, that's sinful FOR ME and has a definite flavor of "laughing it off"/minimizing, perhaps in some instances even condoning the behavior. On a base/carnal level, there are many things my flesh can revel in. But on a spiritual level, Jesus said what fellowship has light with darkness (they don't mix); and I have a LONG way to go, but I believe my mind should be set on [and rejoicing in] things above, rather than depravity. :2c:
:thumbsup: JC.....I just don't want any hurt feelings because of my comment.....for the laughers,head-shakers or smilers..
I think their a pretty good bunch!! as are you ! :HeartThrob:
Oh, you know how one thought leads to another, then that opens up a need to study something out further, etc. Got me thinking about some things.
What did we do before these discussion forums? Probably actually talked to the people around us. :laughing7:
:HeartThrob:
I see two things, that we can be like a well. We can lower down a bucket and get water and the water is good- that is, if the bucket is not so full of holes it will hold no water :o) Or we can be like a fountain, water springing up from our innermost being- water of life, the Spirit of I AM.
The only difference is volume.
No one can make that happen- only the supply of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus will cause the water to flow or draw the thirsty to the watering hole.
It IS a DESERT out there- no matter how good it looks on TV. If the supply of the Spirit is abundant, the aroma of the life of Christ will draw the lost and the water of life will rain down on them, showers of blessing all over His holy mountain.
As David prayed, Oh for a drink from the fountain in Jerusalem.
By the rivers of Babylon we hung our harps and we remembered Zion- all my springs of Joy are in thee.
Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the people.
Time to GET UP :o)
He makes my feet like hinds feet and causes me to go upon my high places.
Seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. Walking in the Spirit. Only grace allows it. Only humility and love allow grace.
Lord, Have Mercy!
Is there a fountain on your mountain? :o)
It's kinda hard to think that the Phelps clan from Topeka will also be saved. I don't hate them (I refuse to) but I do hate what they are saying and doing. They are driving people away from Christ. They are spreading the virus but then, a lot of churches are doing that.
Jock
Quote from: Jock on May 22, 2013, 11:09:12 AM
It's kinda hard to think that the Phelps clan from Topeka will also be saved. I don't hate them (I refuse to) but I do hate what they are saying and doing. They are driving people away from Christ. They are spreading the virus but then, a lot of churches are doing that.
Jock
Jock,
I agree except you said "a lot of churches" I think that it is more like 99%. Seriously is there such a place where a UR person can attend meetings every week or even monthly called a "church"?
We are more like an ekkelsia than any church that I have heard of.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 22, 2013, 04:08:29 PM
Quote from: Jock on May 22, 2013, 11:09:12 AM
It's kinda hard to think that the Phelps clan from Topeka will also be saved. I don't hate them (I refuse to) but I do hate what they are saying and doing. They are driving people away from Christ. They are spreading the virus but then, a lot of churches are doing that.
Jock
Jock,
I agree except you said "a lot of churches" I think that it is more like 99%. Seriously is there such a place where a UR person can attend meetings every week or even monthly called a "church"?
We are more like an ekkelsia than any church that I have heard of.
Jesus said the Father seeks those to worship Him in Spirit and in truth , I do believe He is chooing out of the world and setting us in a place of His choosing , if the temple of God is YOU !
and where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name we have church in the moment , where time and concrete things , such and building and mindsets like that never matter at all
Yes, Rosered, I agree that 99% of churches and that Christ has saved them all. The prostitutes and publicans may enter before them but once the Lord is done with us all, I think we'll be different creatures indeed.
Regards
Jock :2c:
Quote from: Jock on May 22, 2013, 04:58:54 PM
Yes, Rosered, I agree that 99% of churches and that Christ has saved them all. The prostitutes and publicans may enter before them but once the Lord is done with us all, I think we'll be different creatures indeed.
Regards
Jock :2c:
Thank you Jock for seeing that ! :girlheart: and agree
You know I have wondered why the the prostitutes and publicans will enter before others
because they acknowledge their sin ! and acknowledge the SON , JESUS CHRIST , Life over death being a slave to sin ...
repent is the change their minds and change their ways
look at how Love is the greatest overcomer of this world , its not knowledge , that makes us cocky and puffy
its Love that changes us all !!
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say untoyou ,
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven;
for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, [the same]
loves little. You know keeping all the Law of the tree of knowldge of good and evil
Jesus said at best , servants and churches you
were faithful in a few things !
we are still dead while we live the Law of sin is death
just a few things is still abiding in death , not the royal Law
of Love putting God first in our lives and thoughts and depening on Him and Loving one aoher as He loves us , the tree of Life is the royal law in effect to us now , this is bearing fruit of His righteousness ! the Holy Spirit
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in
one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt
love thy neighbour as thyself.
Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever
shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
Martin Zender has a cool video about loving others
Here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PndAjWmgcio
enjoy :Peace2:
Quote from: Jock on May 22, 2013, 05:34:54 PM
Martin Zender has a cool video about loving others
Here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PndAjWmgcio
enjoy :Peace2:
Sorry Jock , I have old dial up coputer that is 12 years old
for me to watch a video of that length would take a few hours :sigh:
I just stay in His Word it is all I am allowed at this time to the Blueletterbible and Biblegateway
and here and a couple more places . God has made boundies, I as a mortal cannot cross alone
But being in the Spirit we can soar far beyond this body of death :girlheart:
I love my brother in Christ Martain Z!
I got to watch 15 seconds of that ..
I will try to watch it all Jock
but I know that when the Father gives you the gift of HIS LOVE from the Holy Spirit , its is something you have been asking for and also will not recive it till you are ready to use it properly
take a 3 year old child and they ask for a bicycle , do you think that their father would get them one at 3 when its of no use to that 3year old ?
we have to grow up into Truth and Grace , just as we read the Child Jesus grew up and waxed strong in truth and grace , Jesus LOVE come fully when looking at the open show of His life in scriptures in the power of His own Cross !
He learned obedience though the things He suffered ! thats dealing with unloveable people and bad spirits on folks cleansing and healing them and than dying for them all , for all times
on His cross , I tell you he always had the Father from the start and was given the Spirit without measure [ Got to be Love right ?] but Jesus still was put to the test by the Spirit taking Him to the wildreness and being tempted of the devil , do you not think those were training exercises ?
something we must all do also ?
Martain did not see that in Video to me , but I do need to watch the whole thing first
Thanks just the same Jock , I just want the nuts and bolts of how its done , asking for the Spirit of Love and than being exercized with it is much more real to me than just getting it and than everything is A OK you know what I am saying ? :HeartThrob:
I think that loving others is telling them about the unconditional love of a great God and His Son, Yeshua, as we have opportunity. I think love can be measured by what we do for people as well, kinda like the good Samaritan. It certainly can't be produced by the flesh though. I know you see that.
Cheers
Jock.
Quote from: Jock on May 22, 2013, 06:37:48 PM
I think that loving others is telling them about the unconditional love of a great God and His Son, Yeshua, as we have opportunity. I think love can be measured by what we do for people as well, kinda like the good Samaritan. It certainly can't be produced by the flesh though. I know you see that.
Cheers
Jock.
Yes I can see what your saying here Jock :thumbsup:
:friendstu: cheers to you and yours
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 22, 2013, 04:08:29 PM
Quote from: Jock on May 22, 2013, 11:09:12 AM
It's kinda hard to think that the Phelps clan from Topeka will also be saved. I don't hate them (I refuse to) but I do hate what they are saying and doing. They are driving people away from Christ. They are spreading the virus but then, a lot of churches are doing that.
Jock
Jock,
I agree except you said "a lot of churches" I think that it is more like 99%. Seriously is there such a place where a UR person can attend meetings every week or even monthly called a "church"?
We are more like an ekkelsia than any church that I have heard of.
To answer your question, I do not know of any places around here (Tuscaloosa, Alabama) where a UR person can attend meetings without hearing the false teachings. God has recently pulled me out of the ET church, and I now have nowhere to go. But I know God is faithful, and he will supply what I need. I praise him for that. He is
so good! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Jock on May 22, 2013, 06:37:48 PM
I think that loving others is telling them about the unconditional love of a great God and His Son, Yeshua, as we have opportunity. I think love can be measured by what we do for people as well, kinda like the good Samaritan. It certainly can't be produced by the flesh though. I know you see that.
Cheers
Jock.
Jock,
Telling people about the unconditional love of a great God and His Son is a great place to start as long as the opportunity arises on its own so to speak. I am finding that just showing people through my actions and words shows them how love works. When my paradigm shift from ET to UR took place I tried telling people about it (unconditional love of God) but most in ET are not ready to hear it and it tends to make them mad. It reminds me of a scene in a movie called "the matrix". In this scene Morpheus is telling Neo that he was reluctant to "wake" him up because Neo was too old. This is the problem for most ETers. They have spent their entire life worshiping a god who loves you until death and then either hates you or continues His love towards you depending on your individual circumstances. My mother gets so upset that she actually told me that she doesn't want to hear the truth about God anymore from me. Of course she wants to hear about him from people who agree with ET just not me. Now I am not calling myself a prophet but I believe this verse applies anyway.
John 4
44 For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country.
I just found a better verse for this because it includes relatives.
Mark 6
4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
DuWayne
mplsfitter539 I concur with all your points. I used to be with a group who preached on the streets and people doing street dramas whilst others were handing out tracts
To love God is the greatest commandment but our neighbor is someone He will lead us to.
Jock.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 22, 2013, 07:28:08 PM
Quote from: Jock on May 22, 2013, 06:37:48 PM
I think that loving others is telling them about the unconditional love of a great God and His Son, Yeshua, as we have opportunity. I think love can be measured by what we do for people as well, kinda like the good Samaritan. It certainly can't be produced by the flesh though. I know you see that.
Cheers
Jock.
Jock,
Telling people about the unconditional love of a great God and His Son is a great place to start as long as the opportunity arises on its own so to speak. I am finding that just showing people through my actions and words shows them how love works. When my paradigm shift from ET to UR took place I tried telling people about it (unconditional love of God) but most in ET are not ready to hear it and it tends to make them mad. It reminds me of a scene in a movie called "the matrix". In this scene Morpheus is telling Neo that he was reluctant to "wake" him up because Neo was too old. This is the problem for most ETers. They have spent their entire life worshiping a god who loves you until death and then either hates you or continues His love towards you depending on your individual circumstances. My mother gets so upset that she actually told me that she doesn't want to hear the truth about God anymore from me. Of course she wants to hear about him from people who agree with ET just not me. Now I am not calling myself a prophet but I believe this verse applies anyway.
John 4
44 For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country.
For me the difficulty lies in knowing how far to take it when sharing UR. I want to shout it from the mountain tops because I want everyone to know. But that has cost me dearly in loosing my church home, my honor, my standing in the community, some of my friends, and at times peace in my own household. I gladly pay the price for the sake of the kingdom and for God's glory. I know people get mad at me, but they also got mad at Jesus and that didn't stop
him. I always have a problem knowing where to draw lines. :sigh: After all, are we not supposed to persevere even unto death?
John,
I pray for opportunities and God gives them to me but not when or how I would choose. I want to tell my parents but God has another time for them. I want to tell my girlfriend but God has another time for her also. The challenge is keeping quite until God makes the situation happen in His time. Once you settle down and become totally confident in UR then you can begin to change those around you by your consistent positive behavior. As the old saying goes.......actions speak louder than words. If a murderer tells you that he has changed his ways you likely won't believe him until he has not killed anyone for a long stretch of time from the last killing. He may even still harbor feelings of killing for some time after his conversion.
DuWayne
Love is the answer.
The flesh cannot measure love.
The spirit gives Love without measure.
Each one of us is given a measure of Faith
to believe that God gives Love without measure.
The Spirit helps me know where to draw lines. The flesh clouds my judgement. Staying close to God and being led by his Spirit is of utmost importance in living in the truth and light. We must deny the flesh, staying clean of pornography and lust, dishonesty, revenge, drunkeness and drug abuse, slander and heresy, pursuit of material goods and self gratification, etc. When we deny our flesh and keep our minds on Jesus, the scriptures, and God's kingdom, remaining humble and loving to others, and remaining faithful even in the face of persecution, we live in truth and light. :dsunny: That, my friends, is the definition of an overcomer.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 22, 2013, 09:09:59 PM
The Spirit helps me know where to draw lines. The flesh clouds my judgement. Staying close to God and being led by his Spirit is of utmost importance in living in the truth and light. We must deny the flesh, staying clean of pornography and lust, dishonesty, revenge, drunkeness and drug abuse, slander and heresy, pursuit of material goods and self gratification, etc. When we deny our flesh and keep our minds on Jesus, the scriptures, and God's kingdom, remaining humble and loving to others, and remaining faithful even in the face of persecution, we live in truth and light. :dsunny: That, my friends, is the definition of an overcomer.
I posted a version of this on FaceBook today. :winkgrin:
Just another seed I planted. :thumbsup:
Pray for rain. :Pray:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 22, 2013, 09:18:31 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 22, 2013, 09:09:59 PM
The Spirit helps me know where to draw lines. The flesh clouds my judgement. Staying close to God and being led by his Spirit is of utmost importance in living in the truth and light. We must deny the flesh, staying clean of pornography and lust, dishonesty, revenge, drunkeness and drug abuse, slander and heresy, pursuit of material goods and self gratification, etc. When we deny our flesh and keep our minds on Jesus, the scriptures, and God's kingdom, remaining humble and loving to others, and remaining faithful even in the face of persecution, we live in truth and light. :dsunny: That, my friends, is the definition of an overcomer.
I posted a version of this on FaceBook today. :winkgrin:
Just another seed I planted. :thumbsup:
Pray for rain. :Pray:
Again I would say that is being faithful in a few things jb
its
Christ in you the very hope of glory that overcomes the world and all thats in it
Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer;
I have overcome the world. 1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater
is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. the Christ come to fulfill the Law and also bring in the new covenant , royal law by magnifying the Law
just mine :2c:
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
You can not be perfected in love if you fear God
Quote from: dajomaco on May 23, 2013, 02:43:00 AM
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
You can not be perfected in love if you fear God
Sorry Dajomaco the scriptures says differently here . :2c: I do fear the Lord and desire the Wisdom from above , and desire to obey Jesus in every experience given to grow in truth and grace
You are Being perfected when you fear God , the fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom [from above ] we are still walking out the days of our flesh as well , only though the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us doing the Works with the Father does the Love become perfect [mature ] within us .
Hbr 5:7
So also
Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him,
Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten theeAs he saith also in another [place],
Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he
feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto
all them that obey him Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing
...all goes to prove, it's not doctrine.. it's "have ye any fruit?" ...if one is perfected in love/fruit, the fruit of the Spirit, the Spirit being God's Presence dwelling inn one and flowing through one, there is no fear.. it then is all reverence.. fear if we fall.. fear if we are no longer dwelling in Him and Him in us, deliberately turning from and disobeying Him, definitely might fear (one's own consequences He lets happen).. But even during wilderness time, a mature and true lover of God knows it's not what one feels, but what God saith.. Aka, if we feel alone, we are not alone, if we don't feel His active love, He still is actively loving us.
Not doctrine, fruit. Gal 5:22 (And we must be diligent to add to that the full armor, because the enemy seeks to douse the light - the fruit.) :gsmile:
Quote from: marie glen on May 23, 2013, 02:59:45 PM
...all goes to prove, it's not doctrine.. it's "have ye any fruit?" ...if one is perfected in love/fruit, the fruit of the Spirit, the Spirit being God's Presence dwelling inn one and flowing through one, there is no fear.. it then is all reverence.. fear if we fall.. fear if we are no longer dwelling in Him and Him in us, deliberately turning from and disobeying Him, definitely might fear (one's own consequences He lets happen).. But even during wilderness time, a mature and true lover of God knows it's not what one feels, but what God saith.. Aka, if we feel alone, we are not alone, if we don't feel His active love, He still is actively loving us.
Not doctrine, fruit. Gal 5:22 (And we must be diligent to add to that the full armor, because the enemy seeks to douse the light - the fruit.) :gsmile:
Well said ! :thumbsup:
thank you, rosered :hiya:
Quote from: marie glen on May 23, 2013, 03:48:55 PM
thank you, rosered :hiya:
Blessings sista Marie !
I was remined when reading your post of a saying I heard many years ago and never forgot it
'' The proof of the
fruit is in the
root ''' :dsunny:
Rom 11:16 For if the
firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and
if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Eph 3:17
That Christ may dwell in your
hearts by faith; that ye,
being rooted and grounded in love, Col 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and
stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with
thanksgiving.
Quote from: moon7171 on April 02, 2013, 02:26:34 AM
Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
3. What if God really is like this?
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
What you say God commanded will happen is incorrect because it comes from an incorrect translation of the word of God. Nowhere in the word of God does it say "millions will burn forever."
The church has a history of torturing and killing people just for reading the word of God, and the church still considers it heresy to believe the word of God correctly translated rather than the doctrine of church tradition.
There is a common misconception about "hell," an Old English word translated from the Greek "hades" literally meaning "un-perceived," or "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of a dead soul, but the meaning of "hell" has been distorted by intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" twelve times in the King James Version and the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna" refers to the ravine of Hinnom, southwest of Jerusalem, used by the ancient Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god, and later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon.
"'And it comes, according to the monthly quota in its month, and according to the sabbath quota in its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem,' says Yahweh. 'And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh.'" (Isaiah 66:23,24)
The intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" has propagated the myth of "hell fire." The church, failing to suppress the word of God by killing people with fire, changed the word of God to terrorize people with torture in fire forever after death.
Hell is obviously not the lake of fire because the King James Version (Revelation 20:14) says hell will be cast into the lake of fire.
Words used in common bibles to express the concept of eternity are incorrect translation of variations of the Greek "aion," literally translated "eon," and the corresponding Hebrew "olam," which refer to a period of time not endless time. I'm not a Greek scholar, but I've learned the Greek "aionion," translated as "eternal" in the King James Version, is the adjective of "aion." The adjective of a period of time can not describe endless time despite the fact that some references biased to church doctrine may say so.
So, what you're relying on for your position is incorrect translation of the word of God. I suggest you study the Concordant Version for an accurate account of God's ultimate plan for humanity. You can also use the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer to compare the ancient text with an ultra-literal translation, the Concordant Version, the King James Version, and Young's Literal Translation. You will see that a better translation changes the whole story.
God's ultimate plan is not to torture the majority of humanity in fire forever, and teachers of that false church doctrine should believe the word of God. Those who believe the word of God regarding the reconciliation of all are accused of heresy by the church. Heresy is simply a belief that does not conform to church doctrine, but church doctrine does not conform to the word of God. Even the corrupt translations used by the church contain the verse that says all will be reconciled through Christ. The church says most people will be tortured in hell fire forever, but the word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ so that God may be all in all.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all." (Romans 11:36)
So the question is, do you believe the church or the word of God?
http://concordant.org/online/index.html
http://www.scripture4all.org/
Quote from: rosered on May 23, 2013, 04:26:28 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on May 23, 2013, 02:43:00 AM
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
You can not be perfected in love if you fear God
Sorry Dajomaco the scriptures says differently here . :2c: I do fear the Lord and desire the Wisdom from above , and desire to obey Jesus in every experience given to grow in truth and grace
You are Being perfected when you fear God , the fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom [from above ] we are still walking out the days of our flesh as well , only though the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us doing the Works with the Father does the Love become perfect [mature ] within us .
Dajomaco is quoting 1 John 4:18, "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love." The word fear is being used here to describe the fear of punishment. When we become right with God, we lose that fear of punishment.
Rosered is referring to a different kind of "fear," meaning to revere the Lord and respect him. Gary Amirault just published a study on this type of "fear and trembling." He believes that the words "fear and trembling" are not the best translation of the Greek words that were translated "fear and trembling." Read this study, and I think you'll find it interesting: http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/fear.htm (http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/fear.htm)
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 22, 2013, 07:28:08 PM
It reminds me of a scene in a movie called "the matrix". In this scene Morpheus is telling Neo that he was reluctant to "wake" him up because Neo was too old. Quote
To paraphrase Morpheus: "Do you think that's the Gospel you're hearing right now...hmmmmm???"
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 23, 2013, 05:58:27 PM
It reminds me of a scene in a movie called "the matrix". In this scene Morpheus is telling Neo that he was reluctant to "wake" him up because Neo was too old. Quote
To paraphrase Morpheus: "Do you think that's the Gospel you're hearing right now...hmmmmm???"
Thanks Dennis for adding that quote. I did some digging into that movie and its no coincidence that there are many types and shadows in the Matrix.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 22, 2013, 09:09:59 PM
The Spirit helps me know where to draw lines. The flesh clouds my judgement. Staying close to God and being led by his Spirit is of utmost importance in living in the truth and light. We must deny the flesh, staying clean of pornography and lust, dishonesty, revenge, drunkeness and drug abuse, slander and heresy, pursuit of material goods and self gratification, etc. When we deny our flesh and keep our minds on Jesus, the scriptures, and God's kingdom, remaining humble and loving to others, and remaining faithful even in the face of persecution, we live in truth and light. :dsunny: That, my friends, is the definition of an overcomer.
Now we know that whatever the law says speaks to those who are subject to the law,[n] so that every mouth may be shut and the whole world may become subject to God's judgment.
- 20 For no one will be justified[p] in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.
The knowledge of sin IMO there is no reason what so ever
to have the knowledge of sin and walk in the spirit.
The knowledge of Law IMO there is no reason what so ever
to have the knowledge of Law and walk in the spirit.
God's Righteousness through Faith
21 But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed—attested by the Law and the Prophets[q] 22 —that is, God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ,[r] to all who believe, since there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Him as a propitiation[t] through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. 26 God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.
Not Doing and Doing this is the game the enemy tries to get us to play
so we blink and look away from grace.
Quote from: dajomaco on May 23, 2013, 08:52:11 PM
Now we know that whatever the law says speaks to those who are subject to the law,[n] so that every mouth may be shut and the whole world may become subject to God's judgment.- 20 For no one will be justified[p] in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.
The knowledge of sin IMO there is no reason what so ever
to have the knowledge of sin and walk in the spirit.
The knowledge of Law IMO there is no reason what so ever
to have the knowledge of Law and walk in the spirit.
How do you mean?Quote from: dajomaco on May 23, 2013, 08:52:11 PM
God's Righteousness through Faith
21 But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed—attested by the Law and the Prophets[q] 22 —that is, God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ,[r] to all who believe, since there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Him as a propitiation[t] through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. 26 God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.
Not Doing and Doing this is the game the enemy tries to get us to play
so we blink and look away from grace.
Why the strike-through text?
Quote from: TomH on May 23, 2013, 04:54:44 PM
What you say God commanded will happen is incorrect because it comes from an incorrect translation of the word of God. Nowhere in the word of God does it say "millions will burn forever."
The church has a history of torturing and killing people just for reading the word of God, and the church still considers it heresy to believe the word of God correctly translated rather than the doctrine of church tradition.
There is a common misconception about "hell," an Old English word translated from the Greek "hades" literally meaning "un-perceived," or "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of a dead soul, but the meaning of "hell" has been distorted by intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" twelve times in the King James Version and the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna" refers to the ravine of Hinnom, southwest of Jerusalem, used by the ancient Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god, and later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon.
God's ultimate plan is not to torture the majority of humanity in fire forever, and teachers of that false church doctrine should believe the word of God. Those who believe the word of God regarding the reconciliation of all are accused of heresy by the church. Heresy is simply a belief that does not conform to church doctrine, but church doctrine does not conform to the word of God. Even the corrupt translations used by the church contain the verse that says all will be reconciled through Christ. The church says most people will be tortured in hell fire forever, but the word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ so that God may be all in all.
"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all." (Romans 11:36)
I like that post. Solid.
An excellent Truth :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
You know, if one truly loves other people, he cannot bare the thought of other precious humans being burned, even for a moment, let alone eternity! That tells us something about people who believe in ET. They either never really thought about hell, or they simply don't really love other people. Perhaps, they don't really believe in hell either!
Sometimes it seems to me that the religious world is really close to embracing the truth about UR. :dunno2:
I don't think all that many individual persons actually believe in a 'hell' but won't confess it, not wanting to be labeled a heretic! (etc.)
..it's my personal belief it's possible no humans will spend any time in the notorious LOF. :mock: :LH:
yep, that's what i believe! :icon_jokercolor: I think Judgment Day which follows Ressurection #2 will last a short age.. and can't help noticing how the notorious words "those not written in the Book of Life" (what requirement is it to have one's name written in the Book of Life? to "believe"?) - Who's not going to "believe" after experiencing being resurrected, and living thru and witnessing a long day of the examination of all things, all human history, etc..? I don't think many will be thAt stubborn.. just my :2c: :smile:
Well that would certainly be great, andd all right by me- but I don't see that in the word.....would mean a lot of wht is written was error IMO. Remember the LOF was created for the devil and his angels, yet Jesus clealry says, "Depart from me .....into the fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
However, I think the LOF is immersion in the nlight of God, which is fire- to darkness, bringing up that which is hidden so that purging, cleansing, repentence, washing can occur-
I don t htink it is arbitrary punishment, I see it as functional correction. As far as who will "believe", when they awaken in his presence, perhaps we underestimate the degree to which people are willing to resist God and the degree to which He has dealt with them already in this life....
Sometimes it is hard to come clean, to let go of our desires and to fully embrace the light- but the one whose eyes are as flames of fire, the one before whom "all things are open", the one who has a sharp two edged sword proceeding from His mouth dividing asunder soul and spirit nd making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart-
He will certainly overcome judgment with mercy and deliver every soul out of darkness into light :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 31, 2013, 04:52:19 AM
Well that would certainly be great, andd all right by me- but I don't see that in the word.....would mean a lot of wht is written was error IMO. Remember the LOF was created for the devil and his angels, yet Jesus clealry says, "Depart from me .....into the fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
However, I think the LOF is immersion in the nlight of God, which is fire- to darkness, bringing up that which is hidden so that purging, cleansing, repentence, washing can occur-
I don t htink it is arbitrary punishment, I see it as functional correction. As far as who will "believe", when they awaken in his presence, perhaps we underestimate the degree to which people are willing to resist God and the degree to which He has dealt with them already in this life....
Sometimes it is hard to come clean, to let go of our desires and to fully embrace the light- but the one whose eyes are as flames of fire, the one before whom "all things are open", the one who has a sharp two edged sword proceeding from His mouth dividing asunder soul and spirit nd making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart-
He will certainly overcome judgment with mercy and deliver every soul out of darkness into light :2c:
Thank you eaglesway for such edifying, comforting words... I'm reminded of
1 Thess 5:8-11, 16-18
but let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation... our Lord Jesus Christ who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another...
vv 16-18
Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 31, 2013, 04:52:19 AM
Well that would certainly be great, andd all right by me- but I don't see that in the word.....would mean a lot of wht is written was error IMO. Remember the LOF was created for the devil and his angels, yet Jesus clealry says, "Depart from me .....into the fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
However, I think the LOF is immersion in the nlight of God, which is fire- to darkness, bringing up that which is hidden so that purging, cleansing, repentence, washing can occur-
I don t htink it is arbitrary punishment, I see it as functional correction. As far as who will "believe", when they awaken in his presence, perhaps we underestimate the degree to which people are willing to resist God and the degree to which He has dealt with them already in this life....
Sometimes it is hard to come clean, to let go of our desires and to fully embrace the light- but the one whose eyes are as flames of fire, the one before whom "all things are open", the one who has a sharp two edged sword proceeding from His mouth dividing asunder soul and spirit nd making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart-
He will certainly overcome judgment with mercy and deliver every soul out of darkness into light :2c:
:iagree: Wonderfully said.
If I'm wrong about UR then I'm already in Hell because I'm endlessly tormented by the torment that's happening to other fellow human beings, and even my own family. There is no rest for me if I'm wrong about UR.
Quote from: Captain.Theophilus on June 21, 2013, 06:47:05 PM
If I'm wrong about UR then I'm already in Hell because I'm endlessly tormented by the torment that's happening to other fellow human beings, and even my own family. There is no rest for me if I'm wrong about UR.
God bless your heart ,
same revelation for me just this week , how can we enjoy this salvation of all with so much evil and suffering going on with everyone everywhere ALL the time , it is a torment
I must still be eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil than , if I cannot get past the torment of so much evil present , we need the TREE OF LIFE to abound ,,,
I was reminded in Matt 5 to Love my enemies , If Gods nature is to Love His enemies
them being the enemies of the Cross of Christ ! that says it all dont it ?
and to put all enemies under His feet /teaching the gospel of the good news and gospel of peace ,
why does Love and God seem so obscure at times ? must be Like Jesus praying to the Father sweat as great drops of blood striving against sin , Not Jesus , he was sinless LAMB OF GOD but died for our sins , but we also MUST take up our cross and follow Him into perfection
Paul said he died daily , his own life did not matter , its was for the cause of Christ and the Cross that he kept the faith and preached the gospel , not knowing anything but Jesus Christ and Him crucified :HeartThrob:
New International Version (©2011)
In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
New Living Translation (©2007)
After all, you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin.
English Standard Version (©2001)
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
In struggling against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
International Standard Version (©2012)
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
NET Bible (©2006)
You have not yet resisted to the point of bloodshed in your struggle against sin.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For you have not yet come as far as to blood in the struggle against sin.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
You struggle against sin, but your struggles haven't killed you.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
American King James Version
You have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin.
American Standard Version
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:
Douay-Rheims Bible
For you have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:
Darby Bible Translation
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, wrestling against sin.
English Revised Version
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:
Webster's Bible Translation
Ye have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin.
Weymouth New Testament
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted so as to endanger your lives;
World English Bible
You have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin;
Young's Literal Translation
Not yet unto blood did ye resist -- with the sin striving;
--
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 4. - Ye have net yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Here (as in 1 Corinthians 9:26) there is a transition of thought from a race to a combat. Your trials have not yet reached the point of dying in the good fight of faith, as has been the case with some of your brethren before you, who have followed their Leader to the end (cf. Hebrews 13:7).
God Disciplines His Sons
4You have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin. 5And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to children, My son, despise not you the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked of him: 6For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and whips every son whom he receives. ...
Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!
Hebrews 10:32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering.
Hebrews 10:33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated.
Hebrews 13:13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.
Amen rosered! Amen. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
I have often wondered exactly what "he will put all enemies under his feet" means. I used to think it simply meant he was going to stomp on them (ET thinking). But now I believe it means something else. Perhaps it means he will bring them into complete submission? But still, I think it may be even deeper than that. Any insights, anyone? :dontknow:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 21, 2013, 08:50:44 PM
I have often wondered exactly what "he will put all enemies under his feet" means. I used to think it simply meant he was going to stomp on them (ET thinking). But now I believe it means something else. Perhaps it means he will bring them into complete submission? But still, I think it may be even deeper than that. Any insights, anyone? :dontknow:
Hi Jbert ,
when you have peace between two sides , Jesus in the middle [Tree of Life ] , that would make for the teaching of peace , no more enemies right ? showing both sides
the tree of knowledge of good and evil , the good is suffering at the evil and the evil learns from shame /as lawless to be good by chastening of the Lord and turned
Jesus says make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt a Tree [ which we are what we eat] a tree is KNOWN by its fruits
we know that the Fruits of the Spirit are Gal 5 ;22.23 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law !!! this is how the Lord turns His enemies into friends and brothers
we are to eat His Body and drink His blood , that we might have LIFE in us
hope this helps , just a simple way that I can see it better , the Holy Spirit is a teacher and comforter , we need comforting because we are getting whoopins teaching us right from wrong . just my small opinion brother J
Blessed upon the mountain tops are the feet of them who bring good news of glad tidings.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 21, 2013, 09:44:08 PM
Blessed upon the mountain tops are the feet of them who bring good news of glad tidings.
:thumbsup: good one Bro John , :HeartThrob:
the feet are a good study when you look into them
And she had a sister called Mary, which also
sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. Luk 10:40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
Luk 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
Luk 10:42
But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. Mat 15:30 And great multitudes came unto him, having with them [those that were] lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and
cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:
:dsunny: The Father loves ALL His children[creation][His Family] and there are some very bad children(for His purpose and His reason)
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. :HeartThrob:
:iagree: Amen Micah !! great scripts !! :HeartThrob:
Loving the unlovable ! now thats HOLY !!
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 21, 2013, 08:50:44 PM
I have often wondered exactly what "he will put all enemies under his feet" means. I used to think it simply meant he was going to stomp on them (ET thinking). But now I believe it means something else. Perhaps it means he will bring them into complete submission? But still, I think it may be even deeper than that. Any insights, anyone? :dontknow:
Hello jbertonbounds:
Is not this referring to rulership (what is that?), authority (what is that?), and power (what is that?) and the last enemy is death (what is that?)
Now, the destruction and subduing of these enemies are the outworking of Jesus atonement through the Holy Spirit and we have to co-operate with the Holy Spirit in this. The ultimate outcome of Jesus atonement is the death of the old Adamic man and the birthing of the new Adamic man In Christ Jesus.
The old Adam is collective or corporate and it means all of humanity and they are all included in and with Jesus death, not just Jesus physical death but Jesus dying to the spiritual death that was in the world of humanity. That is what Jesus died to and humanity with him must die to that same death by the power of the Holy Spirit.
The new Adam is all of humanity which is collective or corporate are included in and with Jesus rising from the dead, not just with a new body(spiritual?) but with spiritual life with all its fulness in Christ.
Now, the new humanity is in Christ, not the physical Jesus who came into humanity but Jesus, the Christ, the anointed one or Messiah. Christ is a body of spiritual members joined to the head which is Jesus.
Those that have been called by God are being regenerate as a spiritual seed that will give birth in its proper season. The Spirit of God is nourishing this seed that has been sown into humanity. The first seed to bear fruit are the chosen of the called as they come into maturity and take part in the first spiritual harvest. It is this elect seed who are the first to overcome through the spirit of God which is the last enemy death.
However, spiritual death is in all of humanity and for the last enemy which is death that which is being destroyed, will be destroyed in all of humanity.
The first to partake of the destruction of this spiritual death is Jesus, the first born of all creation.
Col 1:17 And, he, is before all, and, they all, in him, hold together;
Col 1:18 And, he, is the head of the body, the assembly, Who is the beginning, Firstborn from among the dead, in order that, he, might become, in all things, himself, pre-eminent;—
Col 1:19 Because, in him, was all the fullness well pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20 And, through him, fully to reconcile all things unto him, making peace through the blood of his cross,—through him—whether the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens;
There is much more to this but want to keep the post short but also, consider these scriptures:
1Co 15:22 For, just as, in the Adam, all die, so, also, in the Christ, shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But, each, in his own rank:—A firstfruit, Christ, after that, they who are the Christ's, in his presence,
1Co 15:24 Afterwards, the end—whensoever he delivereth up the kingdom unto his God and Father, whensoever he shall bring to nought all rule and all authority and power;
1Co 15:25 For he must needs reign, until he shall put all his enemies under his feet:
1Co 15:26 As a last enemy, death, is to be destroyed;
1Co 15:27 For—He put, all things, in subjection under his feet. But, whensoever it shall be said—all things are in subjection!—it is evident that it means,—Except him who did put into subjection, unto him, the all things—
1Co 15:28 But whensoever have been put into subjection, unto him, the all things, then, the Son himself, also shall be put in subjection unto him who put in subjection, unto him, the all things,—that, God, may be, all things in all.
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 22, 2013, 12:21:19 AM
:dsunny: The Father loves ALL His children[creation][His Family] and there are some very bad children(for His purpose and His reason)
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. :HeartThrob:
The mark of the call of the upward call in Christ Jesus, ya think? :goodpost:
If we all were perfect, already righteous...we would love each other perfectly...right? Maybe not. By the verses you all are discussing in Matthew, it is of great value to love those who are our enemies, those who are difficult to love. How could we learn to love on this level, if everyone was perfect, loveable, set apart and holy? Those made for common purpose, teach the elect how to love as Christ loves...as God loves. How can you learn this without those made for destruction? They serve a distinct purpose in the plans of God. And when we come into our fullness in Christ, I believe our purpose will be as agents of reconciliation, helping pull those living in death and destruction out of Gehenna into the gates of the Kingdom of God.
Quote from: moon7171 on April 02, 2013, 02:26:34 AM
Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
3. What if God really is like this?
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
All those questions are valid for every doctrine. Many protestants believe Catholics go to hell for worshipping Mary for example.
But isn't the real saving thing professing Jesus is Lord, Saviour and King?
If a UR person does that and is wrong about UR will he be saved on basis of believing Jesus or rejected because he was wrong at several/many things?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 15, 2013, 01:13:03 PM
Quote from: moon7171 on April 02, 2013, 02:26:34 AM
Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
3. What if God really is like this?
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
All those questions are valid for every doctrine. May protestants believe Catholics go to hell for worshipping Mary for example.
But isn't the real saving thing professing Jesus is Lord, Saviour and King?
If a UR person does that and is wrong about UR will he be saved on basis of believing Jesus or rejected because he was wrong at several/many things?
All will believe weather on this side of the grave or the other side because the blood of Yashua covers all sin and not one of these little ones will be lost.
2 Peter 3
9 The Lord isn't slow to do what he promised, as some people think. Rather, he is patient for your sake. He doesn't want to destroy anyone but wants all people to have an opportunity to turn to him and change the way they think and act.
Yahweh always gets what He wants or He is a failure.
:iagree: I would have to have a heart to heart with Father and remind him that love is what love does :girlheart:
1.I suppose Satan could have tricked us into believing that God is more powerful and loving and capable than he actually is but it seems improbable. :winkgrin: It seems more probable that Satan convinced people that people would go to hell or people could have convinced themselves.
2. and 4. I think I would still love him. Before I believed in universal reconciliation I had a great deal of suffering and even though I absolutely believed(and still believe) in Gods goodness and that he is always right I could not agree that hell was necessary or good no matter how hard I tried so I prayed to God and a paraphrase of what I prayed goes something like"I am trying to agree with you but I can't! I know hell exists. I know you are right but I can't agree. Help me agree with you because I can't do it myself!" I think God may have answered that prayer in a way I did not expect since unless I am mistaken I agree with God that people do not go to hell for eternity but in any case I loved God through the whole ordeal. If we are wrong then we and or you will either be tortured in heaven for all of eternity(not because we would not want to be with God but because many of our loved ones would be suffering) or we and or you will be tortured in hell for all eternity.
3. If God is unwilling, unable, and or lacks the desire to save ALL those he loves can he truly be called God?
Hello DanielB:
Quote from: DanielB on August 20, 2013, 12:49:36 PM
1.I suppose Satan could have tricked us into believing that God is more powerful and loving and capable than he actually is but it seems improbable. :winkgrin: It seems more probable that Satan convinced people that people would go to hell or people could have convinced themselves.
2. and 4. I think I would still love him. Before I believed in universal reconciliation I had a great deal of suffering and even though I absolutely believed(and still believe) in Gods goodness and that he is always right I could not agree that hell was necessary or good no matter how hard I tried so I prayed to God and a paraphrase of what I prayed goes something like"I am trying to agree with you but I can't! I know hell exists. I know you are right but I can't agree. Help me agree with you because I can't do it myself!" I think God may have answered that prayer in a way I did not expect since unless I am mistaken I agree with God that people do not go to hell for eternity but in any case I loved God through the whole ordeal. If we are wrong then we and or you will either be tortured in heaven for all of eternity(not because we would not want to be with God but because many of our loved ones would be suffering) or we and or you will be tortured in hell for all eternity.
3. If God is unwilling, unable, and or lacks the desire to save ALL those he loves can he truly be called God?
Where does scriptures teach that hell is a place that we go to? Hell means grave where there is no consciousness or means imperceptible which corresponds to the Greek Hades. The other word is Gehenna and figuratively it is fire judgement which corresponds perhaps to the lake of fire judgement which again should not be taken literally but taken symbolically.
There is a positive redeeming value to the lake of fire judgement which is the second death. Hades and Thanatos were cast into the lake of fire. Both words have to be taken literally or they make no sense. You do not throw a literal dead man into a lake of fire. In the second resurrection they are not raised physically dead but they are spiritually dead. Thus, the word Hades and Thanatos must be taken literally. Hades represents spiritual death which means no spiritual awareness or separation from God. Thanatos means the state of dying and when you put the two words together it means dying to spiritual death or dying to the carnal self or sin nature.
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" 1Co 15:26 Death here is Thanatos. This death here is the dying to self or our sinful nature which is death. "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1Co 15:54 Again death here is the Greek word Thanatos.
We can understand that through Christ we must overcome death. "To be carnally minded is death" Romans 8:6
That is what the second death is in Revelations Chapter 20. Now, the saints in the first resurrection do no have to participate in the second death after the great throne judgement because that they have gone through it by dying to their carnal nature.
I can give you more scriptures if you request them.
The book of revelations is not to be taken literally: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" Rev 1:1 This is pointed out to us in the very first verse and so this is very important to understand! Also, in the very first chapter we are given some symbols with interpretations so we know that that chapter can not be taken completely literally. The same follows for the rest of the book but we have to search the scriptures not just revelations to find interpretations for these symbols.
You can be assured the lake of fire judgement is not to be taken literally and those who do so are given us a false gospel. In the light of Jesus being the Savior of humanity through his atonement for our sins and to free us from our sin nature and to have the life of Christ in us by the indwelling Holy Spirit we can understand that the lake of fire is a positive outworking of God's grace and judgement and there is hope of salvation and spiritual sanctification for those who go through this judgement.
Jesus is the Savior of humanity and scriptures abundantly show that it is Jesus will that all are saved and salvation is contingent on the outworking of the Holy Spirit to believe in Christ but not contingent on man. There are a multitude of scriptures that prove this and any scriptures that state man must repent and believe is still contingent on God to see to that and not the other way around. Thus, man believes and repents by the grace of God and God alone. It is God's will being done because man in his carnal and lost state would not believe and repent. It may appear that man has believed on his own initiative but that is not the case but that God has been working on his heart all along, Salvation is totally a work of God and that includes man beveling in him!
I hope that I have been of some help.
God bless you,
SeventhDay
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
A wonderful message beautifully said. Thank you :girlheart:
Love Julie.
Quote from: moon7171 on April 02, 2013, 02:26:34 AM
Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
3. What if God really is like this?
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
I believe in universal reconciliation because that is what the word of God says.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
The phrase "eternal hell" is not even in the word of God because it's a false doctrine supported by intentional mistranslation to promote Roman church tradition.
The word "hell" is the Old English translation for "hades" literally meaning "unperceived" or "unseen" which was used twelve times in the New Testament to mistranslate "Gehenna," the dump outside Jerusalem where the corpses of condemned criminals were burned and will be again in the coming eon (Isaiah 66:23,24).
The word "eternal" is a mistranslation of the Greek "aionion" which is the adjective of "aion" literally meaning "eon," a period of time not endless time.
It is the church established by the Roman Empire which I used to belong to that is "wrong" and has "led people astray" with their lie about torture forever in fire. They tried to suppress the word of God by killing people with fire simply for reading it, but that didn't work.
The word "hell" simply represents the "unseen" state of dead souls.
All mankind will eventually be saved from death.
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
When that last breath goes from my house of clay, believing that when I am raised from my grave of dust, knowing that Jesus Rose From the Death of dust and that it was LOVE that caused His Will to obey, just knowing and believing that, over whelms any other thought. I don't really care if I was wrong about a universal salvation, I was happy when that breath expired.
Should I believe the eternal torment teaching I would hate the God who created me and I would curse His value as a god of love and... man just thinking of such a god and such a demise makes me want to hate! :HeartThrob:
Thinking of the hell doctrine, or hearing it taught, makes me angry!, because it is such a gross distortion of the Truth!
The truth is, salvation from death is for all mankind! Salvation for God's special purpose in the Great Millennium is for believers who overcome their fleshly desires in this life. There is no hell; it is a pagan myth. :eek: The lake of fire (a figurative term) is a temporary, loving, corrective process of purification. Jesus the Christ really is the savior of all mankind, :banana: because it is God's will that all people come to him, so he can dwell with us eternally. God's will shall be done!
Wow, I just love telling these things! :HeartThrob:
The more I study this, the clearer it becomes in the scriptures. The scriptures teach universal reconciliation and ultimate salvation of all people through the sacrifice of Jesus, I don't care what any evangelist says. The Law requires a sacrifice to cover sin. Jesus became the sacrifice for all sin, thus fulfilling the Law and setting us free from our debtor's prison. In the earthly realm, when a prisoner is set free, he does not have the option of staying there, he is removed from the correctional facility and set free, not by his will, but by the law of the land and the will of the powers over him. The same is true in the spiritual realm. When I began to "see" these things in the scriptures, I began to feel so much closer to the Father, so much closer to Jesus - much more so than ever before.
Come to the light, people, come to the light and see it's beauty! :dsunny:
jberton I like how you said that, thank you. It really does sound simple that way you explained it
Jb, I love that analogy! And yes, the fruit of believing such a glorious truth, is a closer walk with Jesus, a much greater love for others with out judgement vs wanting to go out and live any old way I feel, like so many have told me when I try and share the good news.
Quote from: KathyB on August 21, 2013, 09:45:06 PM
Jb, I love that analogy! And yes, the fruit of believing such a glorious truth, is a closer walk with Jesus, a much greater love for others with out judgement vs wanting to go out and live any old way I feel, like so many have told me when I try and share the good news.
That is often one of the first questions people ask when you share UR: "You mean you believe you can just go out and do anything you want and it won't matter because everybody's going to heaven anyway!?" This attitude provides proof, IMO, that many ET'ers, deep-down, believe that the wicked deserve to burn in hell, and that they are actually looking forward to seeing that come to fruition. They won't tell you that, but I think that is often what is going on in the back of their minds - that scenario is not the mindset of the Christ. I think I should know - I used to be one of them. :eek:
jberton you have exactly 666 posts as of the last one
The mind set ;
That if I give money and time to the church.
Simple reasoning would say that I am in a better position
before God that the guy that doesn't give.
That is this world's wisdom and it has no part of the Spirit.
We must overcome the flesh and stop appealing to God.
through our reasoning.
Our counting and weighing of that which we believe God is
responsible to respond.
This is the reason for my opinion.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on August 21, 2013, 11:11:05 PM
jberton you have exactly 666 posts as of the last one
:eek:
Not anymore! :banana:
What if you guys are all wrong about universal salvation?
What if we are not? :HeartThrob:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/unbeliever.html
Amen Tom. Good one! :Peace2:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 22, 2013, 03:34:26 AM
What if you guys are all wrong about universal salvation?
What if we are not? :HeartThrob:
Wow! Simplicity so beautiful and profound :o)
"Faith is but the channel of grace; it does not produce salvation." - Concorant.org, The Salvation of the Unbeliever
:dsunny:
I love this profound truth. Most of the world teaches that WE muster up our own faith, WE choose Him, WE choose whether or not to be saved, WE "put" our faith in Him, WE, WE, WE . . . do things to produce salvation, make it happen for us. Lies. We do make choices, but HE chose us, HE provided salvation. We don't have the option of choosing whether or not to be saved. We don't choose our own destiny. We don't do anything to make salvation become a reality for us. Eph 2 [ESV] "8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast." It's all about Yahweh!
:dsunny:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 22, 2013, 06:15:40 PM
"Faith is but the channel of grace; it does not produce salvation." - Concorant.org, The Salvation of the Unbeliever
:dsunny:
I love this profound truth. Most of the world teaches that WE muster up our own faith, WE choose Him, WE choose whether or not to be saved, WE "put" our faith in Him, WE, WE, WE . . . do things to produce salvation, make it happen for us. Lies. We do make choices, but HE chose us, HE provided salvation. We don't have the option of choosing whether or not to be saved. We don't choose our own destiny. We don't do anything to make salvation become a reality for us. Eph 2 [ESV] "8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast." It's all about Yahweh!
:dsunny:
Amen, bro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1zXb8XNsLw
Quote from: SevanthDay on August 22, 2013, 11:39:34 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 22, 2013, 06:15:40 PM
"Faith is but the channel of grace; it does not produce salvation." - Concorant.org, The Salvation of the Unbeliever
:dsunny:
I love this profound truth. Most of the world teaches that WE muster up our own faith, WE choose Him, WE choose whether or not to be saved, WE "put" our faith in Him, WE, WE, WE . . . do things to produce salvation, make it happen for us. Lies. We do make choices, but HE chose us, HE provided salvation. We don't have the option of choosing whether or not to be saved. We don't choose our own destiny. We don't do anything to make salvation become a reality for us. Eph 2 [ESV] "8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast." It's all about Yahweh!
:dsunny:
Hello jbertonbounds:
Exactly! Salvation is of God including our believing in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.
Excellent Post!
God bless you,
SeventhDay
:iagree: :dsunny:
Satan has a two headed coin.
Heads he wins.
I see Pride as a two headed coin on one side is heads; false pride.
The other side is heads false humility.
This is truth that of all the billions of people here on earth now.
He chose to reveal himself to me.
Then the Jews surrounded Him and asked, "How long are You going to keep us in suspense? If You are the Messiah, tell us plainly."
I have the freedom because of my understanding of U.R.
I can ask this question a thousand different ways
" If You are the Messiah, tell me plainly."
The answers are always different with the same results.
God Loves me so much that he gave his only begotten son
the opportunity to please him by coming here to this realm and rescue me.
He got me out by giving up his I.D.
He stayed behind and was killed.
But some how he came alive and I am on my way to go meet him and thank him.
The holy spirit is guiding me in the Way.
Quote from: SevanthDay on August 20, 2013, 03:20:26 PM
Hello DanielB:
Quote from: DanielB on August 20, 2013, 12:49:36 PM
1.I suppose Satan could have tricked us into believing that God is more powerful and loving and capable than he actually is but it seems improbable. :winkgrin: It seems more probable that Satan convinced people that people would go to hell or people could have convinced themselves.
2. and 4. I think I would still love him. Before I believed in universal reconciliation I had a great deal of suffering and even though I absolutely believed(and still believe) in Gods goodness and that he is always right I could not agree that hell was necessary or good no matter how hard I tried so I prayed to God and a paraphrase of what I prayed goes something like"I am trying to agree with you but I can't! I know hell exists. I know you are right but I can't agree. Help me agree with you because I can't do it myself!" I think God may have answered that prayer in a way I did not expect since unless I am mistaken I agree with God that people do not go to hell for eternity but in any case I loved God through the whole ordeal. If we are wrong then we and or you will either be tortured in heaven for all of eternity(not because we would not want to be with God but because many of our loved ones would be suffering) or we and or you will be tortured in hell for all eternity.
3. If God is unwilling, unable, and or lacks the desire to save ALL those he loves can he truly be called God?
Where does scriptures teach that hell is a place that we go to? Hell means grave where there is no consciousness or means imperceptible which corresponds to the Greek Hades. The other word is Gehenna and figuratively it is fire judgement which corresponds perhaps to the lake of fire judgement which again should not be taken literally but taken symbolically.
There is a positive redeeming value to the lake of fire judgement which is the second death. Hades and Thanatos were cast into the lake of fire. Both words have to be taken literally or they make no sense. You do not throw a literal dead man into a lake of fire. In the second resurrection they are not raised physically dead but they are spiritually dead. Thus, the word Hades and Thanatos must be taken literally. Hades represents spiritual death which means no spiritual awareness or separation from God. Thanatos means the state of dying and when you put the two words together it means dying to spiritual death or dying to the carnal self or sin nature. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" 1Co 15:26 Death here is Thanatos. This death here is the dying to self or our sinful nature which is death. "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1Co 15:54 Again death here is the Greek word Thanatos.
We can understand that through Christ we must overcome death. "To be carnally minded is death" Romans 8:6
That is what the second death is in Revelations Chapter 20. Now, the saints in the first resurrection do no have to participate in the second death after the great throne judgement because that they have gone through it by dying to their carnal nature.
I can give you more scriptures if you request them.
The book of revelations is not to be taken literally: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" Rev 1:1 This is pointed out to us in the very first verse and so this is very important to understand! Also, in the very first chapter we are given some symbols with interpretations so we know that that chapter can not be taken completely literally. The same follows for the rest of the book but we have to search the scriptures not just revelations to find interpretations for these symbols.
You can be assured the lake of fire judgement is not to be taken literally and those who do so are given us a false gospel. In the light of Jesus being the Savior of humanity through his atonement for our sins and to free us from our sin nature and to have the life of Christ in us by the indwelling Holy Spirit we can understand that the lake of fire is a positive outworking of God's grace and judgement and there is hope of salvation and spiritual sanctification for those who go through this judgement.
Jesus is the Savior of humanity and scriptures abundantly show that it is Jesus will that all are saved and salvation is contingent on the outworking of the Holy Spirit to believe in Christ but not contingent on man. There are a multitude of scriptures that prove this and any scriptures that state man must repent and believe is still contingent on God to see to that and not the other way around. Thus, man believes and repents by the grace of God and God alone. It is God's will being done because man in his carnal and lost state would not believe and repent. It may appear that man has believed on his own initiative but that is not the case but that God has been working on his heart all along, Salvation is totally a work of God and that includes man believing in him!
I hope that I have been of some help.
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Thank you for your concern but I think you may have misunderstood me. When I said "I suppose Satan could have tricked us into believing that God is more powerful and loving and capable than he actually is but it seems improbable." I was mostly trying to point out how ridiculous the concept of satan convincing us that Universal Reconciliation is the truth since it seems like satan would insult God rather than claim that God is great and powerful and benevolent. Not that the person asking the question is ridiculous just the concept of the question. I just found it kind of humorous. And when I say "hell" I am talking about the fictional hell that most Eternal Torment believers believe in rather than the words it is translated from.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 21, 2013, 07:42:12 PM
The truth is, salvation from death is for all mankind! Salvation for God's special purpose in the Great Millennium is for believers who overcome their fleshly desires in this life. There is no hell; it is a pagan myth. :eek: The lake of fire (a figurative term) is a temporary, loving, corrective process of purification. Jesus the Christ really is the savior of all mankind, :banana: because it is God's will that all people come to him, so he can dwell with us eternally. God's will shall be done!
Wow, I just love telling these things! :HeartThrob:
The more I study this, the clearer it becomes in the scriptures. The scriptures teach universal reconciliation and ultimate salvation of all people through the sacrifice of Jesus, I don't care what any evangelist says. The Law requires a sacrifice to cover sin. Jesus became the sacrifice for all sin, thus fulfilling the Law and setting us free from our debtor's prison. In the earthly realm, when a prisoner is set free, he does not have the option of staying there, he is removed from the correctional facility and set free, not by his will, but by the law of the land and the will of the powers over him. The same is true in the spiritual realm. When I began to "see" these things in the scriptures, I began to feel so much closer to the Father, so much closer to Jesus - much more so than ever before.
Come to the light, people, come to the light and see it's beauty! :dsunny:
Hello jbertonbounds:
I heard the message that God would reconcile all within a couple of days of being a Christian. I was filled with amazement and thirty years later I am still amazed and have a burning desire to see people hear this good news especially Christians. God reconciling all unto himself is the real and true good news that ought to be preached and if it is less than that it is a false gospel!
God bless you,
Seventh Day
Amen!
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
If Satan has made me want to actively love everyone more than myself, to fulfil Jesus two greatest commandments then, to love my enemies, to wish well for those who hate me, and to hope that all people come to enlightenment and live in paradise and that God's will is realized, then go Satan, and Satan has changed a lot since I last heard from him.
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
If God is a God of eternal hell, then God 'who intends that all be saved', doesn't intend that all be saved. Thus, God's a liar, and isn't God.
3. What if God really is like this?
See no 2.
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
Led people astray to what? Led them to wishing well for those who hate them, hoping and praying for those averse to them, having a great joy in the knowledge that God will save and rescue even the people the most lost? I don't see how that's astray from anything God wants for man, except to the man who thinks God wants something other than that for man.
You might think that salvation for all means that it's benificial, or allowed, or inconsequential, to go arround sinning and hurting others. But it isn't. I don't need the fear of hell to be able to recognize that. How many bad decisions bear good fruit? I'll hazard a guess at none.
Life of good quality isn't giving into any whims I might have. That's the way to think that leads to ruin. Following any whim or desire means we follow things that are fleeting and perishable. We eat the fruit and we become the fruit. Lusts are selfish desires. To follow all lusts is to be temporary, since lusts change at any given moment. They 'burn the soul', because they are anxious things, and they are never fulfilled, never quenched.
to forego such desires and learn compassionate, self-sacrificing ones, is to build with Jesus' foundation. It is the 'narrow path', the 'middle way'.
Most people on earth follow whims. And are hollow because of it. They are 'fettered in bondage' and they 'die', since desires themselves are perishable things. They are not a steady person, and their life is not a stready life. Up and down, round and round, a whirlwind thing with no foundation. This is anguish.
And such people's decisions lead them to shame, or like 'being thrown in gehenna'.
A moral compass is not something that should be dependent on fear of hell either. Since fear is a fleeting thing, something that can be overcome. Fear, is a desire to avoid, a selfish desire nonetheless. Fear also leads like a bit in the mouth, and 'burns the soul'.
Jesus said that anything taught should be tested by the spirit it contains. What kind of spirit (or perspective, or motive) does a translation of a concept of 'gehenna' ( a place of shame) into a teaching of fiery, never-ending, unflinching agony say about those who wrote it?
'When you make the two one, the upper like the lower, the inner like the outer, the male and female one, that not one is male nor the other female opposed to it, and a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, and an eye in place of an eye, then you shall recognize the kingdom'.
'If they say 'the kingdom is in the sky', then the birds precede you, if they say 'it is in the sea', then the fish precede you. For the kingdom is within you, then outside you. When you know yourselves, you shall understand that you are children of the living father, but if you do not, then you live in despair, for you are the despair'.
If hell as it is known widely, is the teaching of the most authoritative being in all existence (to those who believe it), then to what lengths do you think they will go to 'honour' their God of hell?
King James personally oversaw the torture of those accused of being witches. Constantine had people executed for disagreeing with him. Many Christian emperors were war-mongers. If God is capable of hell, then oh how much more righteous are those that dish it out?
Hell is a dangerous word, and it is far far away from 'have compassion for those against you'.
Those teaching hell, teach a salvation full of contradictions. That 'we cannot get salvation by anything we do', yet we must 'believe to be saved'.
They lock up the words of good news and hope and joy and faith and make it unattainable and unknowable. Even the word 'love', to them, is contradictory. That isn't to say that I hate them, though. I have a great hope for everyone. I pity them more than I hate them. They are locked in despair.
'Will I go to hell, won't I? Oh what if my family burns forever? God please'.
Sleepness nights, shaky foundations, uncertainty. Those things aren't healthy.
But I'm certain that you and I will end up in the same place. Unshakably so. I don't have all the answers, but what I do know is that God is of light. His thoughts higher than ours, his ways higher than ours. I know that understanding myself, my unity in despair with humanity, is the key to unlocking all the things that I share with humanity. And that's when I make the two one.
I see myself in other people. 'Treat others as you would have them treat you'.
There is no me vs them.
A wise man once said 'fight with others, and there is no winner. Fight with oneself, and you will unlock the truth'.
what if Satan has tricked people into believing that Jesus' death was not enough and that when Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" He was confused and that His cross was not really all that powerful and that "God who so loved the world" really dint love the world that much and had ordained before the foundation of the world that most of the people who ever lived would bur forever in flames of torment.
And what if Satan did this so that the light that is in you is darkness and so that the gospel would be "evil spoken of among men" and so that people would be "veiled" to "the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ".
Just wonderin.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 09, 2014, 12:46:45 AM
what if Satan has tricked people into believing that Jesus' death was not enough and that when Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" He was confused and that His cross was not really all that powerful and that "God who so loved the world" really dint love the world that much and had ordained before the foundation of the world that most of the people who ever lived would bur forever in flames of torment.
And what if Satan did this so that the light that is in you is darkness and so that the gospel would be "evil spoken of among men" and so that people would be "veiled" to "the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ".
Just wonderin.
If I'm to err, I'll err banking on the love of God.
Quote from: SevanthDay on September 27, 2013, 07:20:16 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 21, 2013, 07:42:12 PM
Hello jbertonbounds:
I heard the message that God would reconcile all within a couple of days of being a Christian. I was filled with amazement and thirty years later I am still amazed and have a burning desire to see people hear this good news especially Christians. God reconciling all unto himself is the real and true good news that ought to be preached and if it is less than that it is a false gospel!
God bless you,
Seventh Day
You are so blessed that you heard this message within such a short period of time. I didn't hear this message until I turned 50 so most of my life I have believed in the false gospel. Now I have to ask myself " what if I had just taken the blue pill?" quoted from the movie The Matrix. I could have stayed in wonderland and believed anything I wanted to. The one who really hears this gospel has chosen the the red pill. I remember the day I choose the red pill, and what an awesome day it has been.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on January 09, 2014, 07:55:28 PM
Quote from: SevanthDay on September 27, 2013, 07:20:16 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 21, 2013, 07:42:12 PM
Hello jbertonbounds:
I heard the message that God would reconcile all within a couple of days of being a Christian. I was filled with amazement and thirty years later I am still amazed and have a burning desire to see people hear this good news especially Christians. God reconciling all unto himself is the real and true good news that ought to be preached and if it is less than that it is a false gospel!
God bless you,
Seventh Day
You are so blessed that you heard this message within such a short period of time. I didn't hear this message until I turned 50 so most of my life I have believed in the false gospel. Now I have to ask myself " what if I had just taken the blue pill?" quoted from the movie The Matrix. I could have stayed in wonderland and believed anything I wanted to. The one who really hears this gospel has chosen the the red pill. I remember the day I choose the red pill, and what an awesome day it has been.
I am pleased that you heard the real good news and embraced it. God has truly graced you. It was worth the wait wasn't it?
God bless you,
SeventhDay
If I am not being to obtuse, where the heck did your thought come from, not that I am questioning the validity of your question, but what kind of disturbance do you wish to rustle up? Yeah it's me :dsunny:
Quote from: moon7171 on April 02, 2013, 02:26:34 AM
Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?
1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
3. What if God really is like this?
4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
The problem with that thinking is that it is a "damned if you do damned if you don't". situation. If you serve god out of fear and not love, then you will still go to hell, but how can you love someone if you believe they will send even one of your loved ones to hell, and according to Hell believers, all of my immediate family members will end up in Hell. The overwehelming majority apparently going to hell is shocking when you think about it. It's not millions going their it's BILLIONS.
Exactly. It will also make satan the big winner or the game. 5% God vs 95% satan.
Everyone agrees Jesus was a kind, warm, loving man.
Everyone agrees Jesus for forgave those who were actively torturing and mocking Him.
But after He ascended to Heaven He suddenly sends babies to hell because they don't believe. Not to mention all sorts of people who for whatever reason never heard about Him or fell for.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 20, 2014, 06:42:36 PM
Exactly. It will also make satan the big winner or the game. 5% God vs 95% satan.
Everyone agrees Jesus was a kind, warm, loving man.
Everyone agrees Jesus for forgave those who were actively torturing and mocking Him.
But after He ascended to Heaven He suddenly sends babies to hell because they don't believe. Not to mention all sorts of people who for whatever reason never heard about Him or fell for.
That's what I can't wrap my head around that despite all the "evidences" I am giving about Hell. Actually go to this yahoo answers link that has someoen claim God loses to Satan of he loses most of his creation. I actually found somethign on Yahoo answers and the gunuine consese is that God wins by default regadless of how many end up in hell, God wins because Satan will be cast into Hell and tortured alongside the lost, and/or God wins because he will save who he wants so save.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on January 20, 2014, 08:01:58 PM
That's what I can't wrap my head around that despite all the "evidences" I am giving about Hell. Actually go to this yahoo answers link that has someoen claim God loses to Satan of he loses most of his creation. I actually found somethign on Yahoo answers and the gunuine consese is that God wins by default regadless of how many end up in hell, God wins because Satan will be cast into Hell and tortured alongside the lost, and/or God wins because he will save who he wants so save.
You get to choose what doctrine is the better doctrine. Don't go with the scariest, safest, or more accepted. God with the one that makes most sense.
God is going to raise everyone to have billions tortured forever.
God is going to raise everyone to kill yet again with annihilation of the wicked.
God is going to raise everyone to save all.
Those are pretty much the choices. I'd say you are already going in the direction you fancy. Stick with it and the fruit will show itself.
Here is a link to the deeper theological thought on it.
The Purpose of Evil
by Guy Marks
http://haroldlovelace.com/The%20Purpose%20of%20Evil%20by%20Guy%20Marks.htm
.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on January 20, 2014, 08:01:58 PMad around that despite all the "evidences" I am giving about Hell. Actually go to this yahoo answers link that has someoen claim God loses to Satan of he loses most of his creation. I actually found somethign on Yahoo answers and the gunuine consese is that God wins by default regadless of how many end up in hell, God wins because Satan will be cast into Hell and tortured alongside the lost, and/or God wins because he will save who he wants so save.
That would be true if God's aim was to destroy people.
But the Bible says otherwise:
1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul says that the reason we should pray for kings and all in high positions is that this may bring about a quiet and peaceable life that "is pleasing in the sight of
God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
2 Peter 3:8–9, the apostle says that the delay of the second coming of Christ is owing to the fact that with the Lord one
day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day: "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count
slowness, but is patient toward you,
not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
In Ezekiel 18:23 and 32, the Lord speaks about his heart for the perishing: "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? . . .
I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live."
Matthew 23:37, Jesus says: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to
it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were
not willing!"
Looks like the Living God wants all to live and be saved. Crushing all rebellion by casting it into hell doesn't seem to align with that wish.